Liberpalooza!

Breaking news: reason subscriber Mike Gravel, who when last spotted was still running for president as a Democrat, has just joined the Libertarian Party. Commenters are invited to debate the relative merits of a Barr/Gravel or Gravel/Barr ticket.

In other LP news, Mary Ruwart, whose book Healing Our World presents libertarianism with a leftish, new-agey slant, has entered the race for the LP's presidential nomination. So…Ru/Paul? Ru/Barr? Barr/Chong?

Update: Gravel definitely wants to be the Libertarian presidential candidate. No word on whether he's willing to settle for second billing -- or if he'll stick around if the party rejects his bid.

Comments

[Nash]

Bob Barr's mustache, Mike Gravel's eyeball and Ron Paul's Texas twang.

Unstoppable.

This just in. Mike Gravel wrote some newsletters a while back. I expect Jesse to get right on this!

[TallDave]

Gravelution!

[SIV]

In other LP news, Mary Ruwart, whose book Healing Our World presents libertarianism with a leftish, new-agey slant, has entered the race for the LP's presidential nomination.

So how do you represent a far right wing ideology with a leftish, new-agey slant?

A free download of the 1993 version is available at http://www.ruwart.com.

I suppose I could find out easy enough.....

Wonder if she passes my "single issue" test?

[Fritz]

I was actually planning on writing in RuPaul, now that you mention it.

[Cesar]

So how do you represent a far right wing ideology with a leftish, new-agey slant?

Barr/Gravel Unity '08!

Gravel is right on guns, and though I'm not a gun owner myself that issue says a lot about how a politician feels about the masses.

[Adamness]

Is this supposed to be a good thing? We have Ron Paul, the kindly old grampa, and now Mike Gravel, the weird, angry old grampa.

[thoreau]

and though I'm not a gun owner myself that issue says a lot about how a politician feels about the masses

No, it really doesn't. There are plenty of authoritarians (often of the socially conservative sort) who nonetheless oppose gun control, and plenty of ACLU types who oppose most restrictions on personal activity but support gun control. Most people, for good or for ill, do not view gun control as an ideological issue. It's more of a Kulturkampf thing. A lot of the conservative politicians who oppose gun control would change their minds about the laws if they decided that they don't like guns (or don't like the people who own them).

[Jonathan Hohensee]

Could someone explain the running "reason subscriber Mike Gravel" gag to me?

A lot of the conservative politicians who oppose gun control would change their minds about the laws if they decided that they don't like guns (or don't like the people who own them).
One of our local talk radio guys hates gun control, but at the same time believes that guns should only be sold to either homeowners or people with dependents, depending on which day you listen to him. Douche.

[Wyatt Earp]

http://www.gravel2008.us/issues

I think his positions on the environment, education, immigration, health-care and social security all leave something to be desired.

[SIV]

CD #1

Industrial Hemp: The Hidden Agenda Behind the War on Drugs. Raymond R. Carr, a registered pharmacist, suggests that the War on Drugs is really a war on a plant that could save the planet!

How Liberty Can Save the Environment. Dr. Ruwart demonstrates that liberty, not government, is the environment's best friend. Recorded live at the 1999 ISIL World Conference in Costa Rica.

$10/CD

Whewwww! For a second I thought she was a hemper, but that is somebody else on the flipside of her lecture CD.

Question

"Will any libertarians concede that the natural environment -- resources themselves, animals that live off them -- have natural rights, in the same way that humans assign natural rights to themselves?

Answer

"The libertarian philosophy addresses relationships between human beings, not humans and other species. Many people are looking for a coherent way to address this issue, so please give some thought to developing one."

She seems OK!

Run! Mary Run!

[BakedPenguin]

Jonathon: Mike Gravel subscribes to Reason. No gag. So far as I know, he hasn't ever threatened to cancel his subscription.

Which radio guy was that?

[LevStrauss]

Does Gravel count as a Kos-motarian?

[Cesar]

Gravel will be the only person in the race older than John McCain.

[Jonathan Hohensee]

Baked-Bud Hedinger.
Even though I disagree with him a lot I like the guy. He's one of the least aggressive talk show hosts when it comes to the people who call in

[Cab]

I always thought it was odd that the guy considered to be on the fringe right (Paul) and they guy considered to be on the fringe left (Gravel) had the most in common.

Anyway, is it too much to ask to get a Libertarian candidate that is charismatic, young, remotely electable, and won't make the the party look kookier than we already are?

[Colin]

I'll repeat -- how can a Marxist be a libertarian?

Will Chavez be next?

[shecky]

Thoreau:

My sense is that gun control tends to play out as more of a culture war thing rather than ideological freedom issue. A quick rundown of the big gun forums seems to indicate that gun nuts tend to be quite an authoritarian/conservative lot. Even statist on gun issues.

[SIV]

and though I'm not a gun owner myself that issue says a lot about how a politician feels about the masses

No, it really doesn't.

Yes it really does. Support of gun rights is support of property rights and individual autonomy.Anti-gun leftists-including your "ACLU types" generally oppose such things right now.

[The Bearded Hobbit]

though I'm not a gun owner myself

.. may I suggest these as a start??

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3&section=products

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1705&return=Y

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/BoltAction22/981T.aspx

.. Hobbit (who has no financial connection to any of the companies listed but thinks that these are good products for the money)

[Bingo]

Cosmotarians are cool.

[thoreau]

SIV-

A lot of socially authoritarian politicians oppose gun control. A lot of the people most staunchly opposed to warrantless wiretaps and detention without trial support gun control. Gun control seems to be one of those issues that correlates with party and culture more than ideology.

[shecky]

Regarding fringe right/left:
It seems to me that viewing the political spectrum as a linear model breaks down too much. I think of it more as circular, where the further a person goes down one side, the more they begin to loop around and resemble the fringe of the the other side.

[Bingo]

Hobbit:

Mr Ruger is famous for saying this:

no honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun

He wrote a letter that influenced the drafting of the 1993 Assault Weapons Ban. Ruger makes some damn fine guns, but they will never get a cent of my money.

[Jeff Wartman]

It still remains to be seen whether Mike Gravel's many anti-Libertarian economic beliefs will play into this.

[SIV]

shecky,

I've been reading those gun forums heavily recently to research a gun purchase.They are nearly all anti-authoritarian.I read posters on a Southern State hunting and fishing oriented forum (as opposed to gun rights and self defense) bitching about no-knock raids and the militarization of police departments.

[gp]

http://phillies2008.org/

I'm supporting the Physics Professor for the LP nomination. He's not charismatic, but he's smart, serious, and a physicist. We need more physicists. (not you, thoreau; sit down already.)

[Jonathan Hohensee]

though I'm not a gun owner myself

.. may I suggest these as a start??

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3&section=products

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1705&return=Y

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/BoltAction22/981T.aspx

.. Hobbit (who has no financial connection to any of the companies listed but thinks that these are good products for the money)

I'm going to a local gun show this weekend, and have been thinking about buying a gun for a while-any tips?

[SIV]

Bingo,

Ruger has passed away and they are offering hi-cap magazines now.I was just looking at "honest" 5 shot SP101 s though.I don't like the aesthetics of their auto-pistols.At least they don't put those damnable internal locks on their guns like S&W.

[Bingo]

Is orange the official libertarian color? Will we get some orange sprinkles on our purple frosting in November?

[thoreau]

gp-

That's OK. I'm currently angling to become John McCain's running mate.

See here for explanation:
http://highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2008/03/24/8036

[Did I miss something?]

Ru? Who's Ru?

[Ben Kalafut]

The LP has needed a reboot ever since Rothbard and Co drove out the people actually interested in advancing a libertarian agenda (and got that Bill Evers-penned, pompously stupid platform passed!)

Barr/Gravel '08 could be our best chance at LP 2.0. Perhaps it's not precisely what this "cosmotarian" would like, but look at it this way: it reattaches the party's left arm (Gravel) and reverses its lobotomy (Barr).

Think of it this way, too. Gravel is a good deal less nuts than tax protest "constitution scholar" Michael Badnarik, diploma-mill doctor Campagna, conspiracy lout Aaron Russo, and some of the libertarians currently seeking the nomination (narcissist Barry Hess, off-the-deep-end Born Again "Purist" Christine Smith, Dan Imperato, John Finan.) A case can be made for his having a stronger libertarian instinct than Ron Paul. Yes, his take on healthcare is scary, but it isn't any worse than the Paul approach to immigration (kick 'em out), gay rights (collective right of community to oppress), or the Establishment Clause (de-fund courts which apply it!)

[Some dude]

Ru, you know, she's libertarian, like Pa, Gra, Ba, and Cho.

[shecky]

I read posters on a Southern State hunting and fishing oriented forum (as opposed to gun rights and self defense) bitching about no-knock raids and the militarization of police departments.

If libertarian meant only gun issues, I'd say you have a point. More often, I find many more very pro drug war pro-police/militarist/nativist/cultural conservatives than libertarian leaning folks.

[Mad Max]

"make the the [Libertarian] party look kookier than we already are"

How, exactly, could that happen? I shudder to think, and I was a loyal Badnarik supporter.

"Ru? Who's Ru?"

Winnie the Pooh's friend.

[Jennifer]

He has a normal human skin tone, which is a definite step up over libertarians past.

[Luke Johnson]

I'm for a RuPaul ticket, it would really freak out the paleos.

[SIV]

Anyone familiar with the FN Five-seveN ?

I don't favor polymer pistols but I do appreciate
the very light weight, high capacity, minimal recoil aspects of this gun.Looks like a good plinker. Doesn't hurt that there is some noise about banning them either.

[Cab]

Mad Max, good point.

[Franklin Harris]

In other LP news, Mary Ruwart, whose book Healing Our World presents libertarianism with a leftish, new-agey slant, has entered the race for the LP's presidential nomination.

Ruwart may be right on all the issues, but that New Age thing she has going (unfortunately, not merely an affinity for the poorly named genre of music) makes her only a slightly more attractive LP nominee than the guy with blue skin.

[SIV]

shecky,

which gun forums are you reading? The ones I'm looking at seem to lean heavily libertarian.
I'm not looking at political discussions there
just experience and opinion on particular weapons. The politics in those threads(and regular posters sigs) are all anti-authoritarian.

[joe]

Mike Gravel is the type of guy who can really make a splash.

He'll light a fire under the party.

Did I get there first?

[The Bearded Hobbit]

I'm going to a local gun show this weekend, and have been thinking about buying a gun for a while-any tips?

.. the Mossburg 500 is available in a combo package, with 28" and 18.5" barrels .. they go on sale every once in a while for a bit over $200 .. IMHO should be the basis of every home protection system ..

.. a .22 rifle and a box of ammo is about the most enjoyable afternoon that one can spend .. enough said ..

.. to fill out the trifecta is a good quality handgun .. my preference is a .357 Magnum revolver but I also have a 9mm autoloader that I really, really like to shoot ..

.. ymmv

.. Hobbit

[joe]

Support of gun rights is support of property rights and individual autonomy.

Sure. You know. Like John Ashcroft. Big individual liberty types.

[john c Cosmo Cramer Jackson 3r]

The whole "political spectrum as a circle thing" was day 1 in my freshman PolySci class many ages ago. The whole "left" authoritarian and "right" authoritarian almost touching thing. Or "Nazis"and "Commies" being pretty close on the spectrum. Not that Paul is a nazi and Gravel is a commie or anything...Though neither gets my Cosmo seal of approval.

[Bill Cooke]

Between Gravel, Ventura, Paul, and Barr, I'm going to have a hard time trying to figure out who I should "throw away my vote" on this year!

America may be committing suicide, but I won't go along and drink the koolaid just because everyone else is.

[Jim Walsh]

..."make the the [Libertarian] party look kookier than we already are"...

I'm not sure that's possible...

[SIV]

joe,

You talkin' 'bout the John Ashcroft who...

He was a leading opponent of the Clinton Administration's Clipper encryption restrictions.

He convened the first and only Senate hearing on racial profiling, on March 30, 2000, with Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI), where he stated that racial profiling is unconstitutional and said that he supported the concept of legislation requiring that statistics be kept of police actions.

I am no fan of Ashcroft's tenure as a politician or bureaucrat, but
for an authoritarian prosecuter for the State
you could say his civil liberties record was
"mixed".

[Mad Max]

"Or 'Nazis' and 'Commies' being pretty close on the spectrum. Not that Paul is a nazi and Gravel is a commie or anything...Though neither gets my Cosmo seal of approval."

I'm not sure if this warrants a drink or not. Could we refer it to our distinguished panel of judges?

[shecky]

which gun forums are you reading?

glocktalk, thehighroad, calguns mostly. Interestingly, thehighroad seems to have put a cap on politics a few months ago, unless they relate to gun issues, probably because every other thread was about how the Muslims/French suck so bad. Calguns is the worst I've seen, getting onto stormfront territory on occasion. The glocktalk crowd seems to have gotten weary of covering GWB's ass, but most are still the same odd lot.

Clearly, there are some reasonable folks there of all political stripes. But I don't think it's too much of an exaggeration to say the gun forums are overly represented by the National Review crowd.

[SIV]

I'm reading a lot of thehighroad and a bit of glocktalk
Never seen calguns.I think we are sort of talking circles here as "the National Review crowd" seems more pro liberty to me than most left, center, and right non-libertarian ideological circles. Excepting that idiot nutcase k-lo broad who wants to blow Romney, of course.

[Eric Dondero]

This is huge. He is the very first US Senator affiliated with the Libertarian Party. (Sen. Orrin Hatch did speak to the 1994 LP National Convention in SLC).

This gives the LP major Gravitas and a great deal of credibility. And from Alaska, no less, where the LP has already won many races.

As a Republican, I salute my friends in the LP for a job well done. You all should be very proud of landing this big fish (or Alaska Salmon.)

[Eric Dondero]

By my count, 1 US Senator and 3 US Congressman have been affiliated with the Libertarian Party now: Gravel, Ron Paul, Bob Barr and Sam Steiger. Paul and Barr are still in the LP.

Plus the LP has had 12 State Legislators: 3 in Alaska, 1 1/2 in Michigan (Steve Dresch and Leon Drolet), 6 in New Hampshire and 1 in Vermont.
\
Currently, there are two legislators affiliated with the LP: Steve Vaillancourt in NH and Jerry O'Neil in Montana.

[joe]

SIV,

I'm talking about John Ashcroft who brought back federal prosecutions for dirty movies. (Did you know he reassigned FBI agents from counter-terrorism for that?)

Ooh, "mixed." Isn't that nice. And you're looking down your nose at the ACLU?

[Bat Masterson]

That must not be the real Dondero. I mean, he's not claiming Ron Paul molested him as a child or anything.

No ... wait a minute. He's really touting talking points from Dondero's website. Might just be an oversight.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Mad Max:
I'm not sure if this warrants a drink or not. Could we refer it to our distinguished panel of judges?

New drinking game rule:

If you ask "Does this warrant a drink or not?": DRINK!

[Ben Kalafut]

Not that Steiger was anything to be proud of or brought the LP any Barr-like gravitas.

What kind of "libertarian", presented with a plan, at a public meeting, by a prominent local architect,to improve parking and traffic flows downtown, not by expensive construction projects (which was what was ultimately done) but instead by re-striping the parking spaces, rejects it out of hand by asking "what's in it for me?"

That really did happen, during Steiger's tenure as Prescott's mayor, the highlights of which include Sergeant Bilko schemes to enrich his cronies, the go-ahead for construction of the Taj Mahal of Kia dealerships (those who've driven in from I-10 know what I'm talking about!), and a taxpayer giveaway to Wal-Mart. Granted, his LP days were long behind him by then, but he was well into senility before he had anything to do with the LP. Guys like him make Ernie Hancock look serious by comparison.

Despite all that, everyone remembers the jackass for having shot a burro.

[Greg N.]

Please tell me this entire post is a joke.

[Sam Grove]

Barr/none

[Kevin Carson]

"Mr Ruger is famous for saying this:
"no honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun"

Does that apply to men in uniform?

[Daze]

"Barr/Gravel '08 could be our best chance at LP 2.0."

I disagree. Unelectable fringy retreads from the two major parties won't boost respectability. And someone with a long history of advocating very un-libertarian ideas won't help promote a libertarianism as a distinct alternative.

The best candidate would be an articulate, charismatic superrich businessman, not associated with either major party, Ross Perot-like but not insane.

[bigbigslacker]

Shecky, isn't glocktalk the host of that law enforcement circle jerk forum? Given the Glock is the weapon of choice for civilian thugs in uniform, you should exclude that site from your pool of anecdotal evidence.

[Pig Mannix]

Is this supposed to be a good thing? We have Ron Paul, the kindly old grampa, and now Mike Gravel, the weird, angry old grampa.

It's a wonderful thing! Being on the LP ticket means he won't even be able to get elected dog-catcher!

[SIV]

"no honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun"
Ruger now serves "dishonest men" with the 17+1 SR9 Pistol

I'm still looking at a Ruger SP101 revolver-- with an "honest" 5 shots of .357 magnum.

[Dempsey]

Ahh, I get it! Now we have a Keynesian faction of the Libertarian Party.

[MK2]

Isn't Gravel a Holocaust denier?

[Adamness]

Sometimes I think it's better if we don't get a lot of attention or "big name" politicians joining up. The more people we get and the more attention we get, the higher the expectation will be. And after 30 years of this, I don't think the LP is going to make a move anytime soon. I mean, when we get Mike Gravel to join up, how much fringier can we get?

Dondero, this isn't huge at all. If Gravel didn't yell at the other candidates during those couple debates, he'd have been mostly forgotten as a senator from 30 years ago. No offense, Mr. Gravel.

[Pablo Escobar]

What I don't understand is the split in the libertarian movement.

On the one hand we have a Ron Paul REPUBLICAN Revolution that led to over $30 million being raised and several credible second-place finishes, and on the other, we have the geeks in the Libertarian Party, who could only raise $1 million for their presidential candidate last time around.

I think the choice is clear. Abandon the LP and become a Ron Paul Republican.

[Bill Cooke]

MK2 | March 26, 2008, 1:44am | #
Isn't Gravel a Holocaust denier?

No, and you can go and fuck yourself.

[Taktix?]

Is this supposed to be a good thing? We have Ron Paul, the kindly old grampa, and now Mike Gravel, the weird, angry old grampa.

Kinda like Statler and Waldorf?

[Das Erfurt Programm]

To all the firearm fetishists who've chimed in on this thread.

Don't worry, your commie libertarian comrades don't want to grab your guns, we have our own to play with.

-------------------
3. Education of all to bear arms. Militia in the place of the standing army. Decision by the popular representatives on questions of war and peace. Settlement of all international disputes by arbitration.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1891erfurt.html

[Mad Max]

"The best [LP] candidate would be an articulate, charismatic superrich businessman, not associated with either major party, Ross Perot-like but not insane."

You don't ask for much, do you?

[Lamar]

"I was just looking at 'honest' 5 shot SP101 s though."

It's an excellent home defense piece. The SP101 in .357 magnum with the 3" barrel is small, simple, powerful and reasonably accurate (for a small gun). Plus, the flame that comes out the barrel is big as a bus with .357 loads. Nobody imagines such a big growl from such a small dog.

[Ponder]

How to be a progressive libertarian

[Lost_In_Translation]

Jeff Flake continues to resist libertarian entreaties however.. which says something.

[technomist]

A cool guy.

[Reponder]

Gravel doesn't seem all that grumpy in that video. lol. A bit on the gruff side maybe. Even in the early Democratic debates, when he was heaving Gravelbombs at his opponents, behind the scene, you could sense something waggish about the old dog.

[Reponder]

To elaborate: gruff, pertaining to his singing voice 🙂

"makes all the instruments sound powerful but husky"- Virgil Thomson

[robc]

Like John Ashcroft. Big individual liberty types.

Because legalizing strong crypto did nothing for individual liberty.

I have a hard time smacking down too hard any supporters of strong crypto. Also, anyone who quit the current admin because they couldnt stand working for Bush.

[joe]

"Some of the candidates on this stage frighten me."

"Which ones?"

"Well, the leading one." Looks at Biden. "And you, too. You've got a certain arrogance about you."

How can you not love that?

[Eric Atkinson aka]

To all the firearm fetishists who've chimed in on this thread.

Don't worry, your commie libertarian comrades don't want to grab your guns, we have our own to play with.

1. We don't "play" with firearms.
2. You commie libertarians couldn't lead
a bunch of drunk red necks to a pig picking.
3. and even if you could you don't have the
stones to do it.

[creech]

Mary Ruwart will be more than acceptable to most Libertarians, and she will ably dispell voters' perception that Libertarians are "all for me and the hell with everyone else."
In other words, a candidate who doesn't practice the macho-flashing you see from a number of H&R commenters.

[TerryP]

From what I know of Ms. Ruwart she seems to be an excellent candidate, especially compared to the other currently running candidates. She seems to be very good at telling/showing why liberty is the way to go in most situations. I read her book and found it very good and interesting. I am pretty sure she could give the rep and dems a run for their money in a debate without coming across as being to kooky. Perhaps Karen Kwiatkowski (sp?) would be a good running mate. She has a lot of foreign policy experience. Or maybe we could somehow get David Walker to become a libertarian and run. His financial experience is top notch considering he was essentially the governments head accountant. He was going all around the country telling people about the problems with Social Security and Medicare but no one seemed to listen. Maybe they would listen if he was a candidate.

[The Democratic Republican]

Mary Ruwart, whoever the hell she is, shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Bob Barr. And the only person who deserves less mention is Gravel.

When is the LP going to stop focusing on the every-four-years kook show known as the presidential nominating process and focus on building a REAL party structure at the grassroots?

[The Democratic Republican]

And is Dondero even still allowed in the door at LP events, what with his incessant shilling for the Republican Party?

[The Democratic Republican]

"Maybe they would listen if he was a candidate."

Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how many credibility points you lose when you go out and campaign under the LP banner? That is what happens when you don't build a strong, sustainable party and you indulge every whack job that wants to be a state or county chair.

[Citizen Nothing]

"The best [LP] candidate would be an articulate, charismatic superrich businessman, not associated with either major party, Ross Perot-like but not insane."

T.J. Rodgers, anyone? He'd fit the bill, plus his leaving Cypress Semi would probably boost the price of my CY stock.

[Warren]

Gravel is not Barr. He gets major libertarian props for supporting and end to prohibition. However, his "let's put the government in charge" extremist solution isn't a single issue anomaly. I say Barr is to pink. Don't let the tinfoil fool you, this guy is simply not entitled to a decoder ring.

[Commie Lib]

2. You commie libertarians couldn't lead
a bunch of drunk red necks to a pig picking.

Very funny tough guy 🙂

It's not a matter of not being able to, it's about not wanting to. But if that's your hobby, have at it.

And, I don't think the word you are looking for is "lead" when talking about a pig-drunk crew; "corral" might be more appropriate. But that would be coercive.

Oink!

[Legate Damar]

you indulge every whack job that wants to be a state or county chair.

How does this differentiate them from the big 2? Oh, wait, I know! The whack jobs and petty despots from the other 2 parties sometimes win the seat for which they are running. If you come up with another substantive difference, please let me know.

[jkp]

Christ. He's the one who was outraged that Democratic presidential candidates were putting America's foreign policy interests ahead of other countries.

[Rhywun]

"the National Review crowd" seems more pro liberty to me than most left, center, and right non-libertarian ideological circles

When they're not busy blaming divorce on gays and unemployment on Mexicans, yeah they're all about liberty.

Abandon the LP and become a Ron Paul Republican

I like the grass roots idea. Get a real 3rd party going. 'Cuz otherwise your message gets lost in the mix, especially when it contradicts half of your party's platform. And it won't attract any votes from the other side, who like your message but not who you've chosen to align yourself with.

[The Democratic Republican]

Legate: The "substantive difference" is that "the big 2" are already in power, and if the LP ever wants to be in power it's going to have to play a better game than that.

You don't go in as the underdog, play at the same level as your heavily favored and advantaged opponent, and expect to come away with a win.

[lunchstealer]

My world is really strange. I appreciate Gravel for not sugar-coating that fact, and really pushing the boundaries of the absurd in his campaign.

[J sub D]

Re: Mike Gravel has just joined the Libertarian Party.

This gives the LP major Gravitas and a great deal of credibility.

As much as I enjoy belittling Donderooooooooo, I cannot possibly add to this comment.

[Justin (THR)]

I'm on the staff of one of the gun forums that was previously mentioned: The High Road.

It's painting with a fairly broad brush to say that the forum is overly-populated with authoritarians.

This is not to say that there aren't any. There certainly are.

However, it's been my observation that the debates between the authoritarians and libertarians are generally very healthy and conducive to thought-provoking discussions.

As a staff member, I'm often placed in having to moderate threads on these discussions, and I've been accused of being an idealogical crony from practically every perspective you can imagine.

It's quite amusing to get emails from people accusing me of being a commiesimp pinko one day, and then getting accused of being a supporter of all of the puppy-stomping jack-booted thugs the next.

As to why we closed the politics forum; it was simply becoming a pit. There were no constructive discussions taking place, and an entire forum where people were just spitting at one another just stinks. On top of that, running a political forum in an election year is just a migraine-inducing pain.

[Eegosumabbas]

Hey, if Gravel can read Adam Smith and agree with 90% of it, give him the benefit of the doubt and let him be a spokesman. What bothers me is his desire to use public moneys to fund education, health care, and political campaigns. He should probably stick to the green or democratic party. Also his "National Initiative" thing is frightening: direct democracy cannot work in a nation of 300 million people, and you can look forward to majority oppression of the minority. You think things are bad now? It would be a giant clusterfuck violation of freedom.

If the LP uses Gravel as a mouthpiece, you can kiss the party's future goodbye, as all the center and right libertarians will jump ship for the Republican party.

[squarooticus]

The only three guns any self-respecting gun-owning libertarian need own are:

(1) A full-size 1911 in .45
(2) A .308 semi-automatic battle rifle or carbine (AR-10 and variants like the DPMS panther are sufficiently reliable now, but you might want to go with an M1A for ultimate reliability)
(3) A 12-gauge shotgun

Of course, more guns are never a bad idea, and having a lightweight .38+P or .357 magnum snubbie for everyday deep concealment in areas where the gub'mint decides you aren't responsible enough to carry is an excellent fourth gun, but the above 3 are the absolute minimum required.

[Eric Atkinson]

The only three guns any self-respecting gun-owning libertarian need own are:

I agree with you list, except that I would add
an 22lr such as the ruger 10-22.

Also I might add many, many rounds of ammo.

Me I own an M1A Springfield, HK93, HK M1, and
a HK USP .45; along with the 10-22. So I'm close to your list.

[Justin (THR)]

The only three guns any self-respecting gun-owning libertarian need own are:

Are the ones that fit their hands the most comfortably, and cover their particular and individual needs as a gun owner.

Quite frankly, blanket statements of "X gun is the only one you need" really chap my ass.

[squarooticus]

Justin, you are absolutely right, but the approach I'd take is to replace individual guns from my list (or some other list with a reasonable cover of gun utility) with others that are basically equivalent in function and power but are a better "fit" for the user.

The idea of a minimal list is to cover the set of circumstances a person might find himself in without breaking the bank, and is valid.

[Mike Laursen]

When is the LP going to stop focusing on the every-four-years kook show known as the presidential nominating process and focus on building a REAL party structure at the grassroots?

They aren't, because there will always be a substantial number of Libertarians who think the presidential campaign is an important outreach and education tool. However, you can easily get involved in your county organization just by showing up, ignore whatever the national LP is doing, and do your own projects at the county level.

[svf]

I love Mary Ruwart but she is a lousy public speaker. I speak from experience (almost nodding off at the 2000 convention).

Mike Gravel, while crazy, is at least entertaining. Kinda like Russell Means.

[NoStar]

My dad taught me how to shoot a .22 in a gravel bar down by the river.

For ease of carry, low cost, and reliability, I recommend the 9mm Makarov. If it was good enough for the STASI, it's good enough for me.

[James Anderson Merritt]

My opinions of his politics or whether his mentis is compos or non, the video has an excellent beat and you can dance to it.

It takes a lot to make me smile in this grim and seemingly neverending death-march of a campaign. And that video did the trick.

All we are say-ing ... is give Mike a chance!

[James Anderson Merritt]

# svf | March 26, 2008, 12:03pm | #

# Mike Gravel, while crazy, is at least
# entertaining. Kinda like Russell Means.

Last I heard about Mr. Means, he was seceding from the Union up in the Black Hills region. How is that working out for him?

[James Anderson Merritt]

# Nash | March 25, 2008, 9:05pm | #
# Bob Barr's mustache, Mike Gravel's eyeball
# and Ron Paul's Texas twang.

Actually, I think Ron Paul's twang hails from Pennsylvania, though he seems to have picked up a very soft drawl and a lot of Texanisms during his years living down there. I think it is right neighborly of his Texas constituents to keep sending a "foreigner" to DC to represent them.

[svf]

Last I heard about Mr. Means, he was seceding from the Union up in the Black Hills region. How is that working out for him?

... running for president again, apparently...

[piperTom]

svf (12:03pm) says "I love Mary Ruwart but she is a lousy public speaker."

I see excellent points here. (1) We have good (and recent!) empirical evidence that a person can't speak worth crap can still be elected President and (2) the complaint, SVF, loves her anyway! Whatever it is that Mary is saying, it seems to make people love her -- that is sufficient.

My prediction: Barr will recognize he can't beat Ruwart; won't run. Gravel will receive an enthusiastic reception and very few votes. All others can't add up to 49%; Mary wins on the first ballot. (But still can't make 1% in Nov.)

[Brandybuck]

Yet more evidence of the ongoing dilution of the word "libertarian". First they took the word "liberal" away from liberal, then took "conservative" away from conservatives. Now we are losing the word "libertarian".

Maybe I'll have to start calling myself "minimally minarchist" instead.

[svf]

My prediction: Barr will recognize he can't beat Ruwart; won't run. Gravel will receive an enthusiastic reception and very few votes. All others can't add up to 49%; Mary wins on the first ballot. (But still can't make 1% in Nov.)

I agree with everything you say except the part about Barr -- if he runs he WILL beat Ruwart. Maybe on 2nd ballot, but he will. Especially if he gets an endorsement of some kind from Ron Paul. Every day that passes makes it less and less likely that Barr will enter the race, though.

So... we get Ruwart... and less than .5% of the vote. Again.

[Rick Barton]

Mike,

Welcome to a party that's worthy of you.