Gaining Ground

Charles Murray on Barack Obama's speech:

I read the various posts here on "The Corner," mostly pretty ho-hum or critical about Obama's speech. Then I figured I'd better read the text (I tried to find a video of it, but couldn't). I've just finished. Has any other major American politician ever made a speech on race that comes even close to this one? As far as I'm concerned, it is just plain flat out brilliant -- rhetorically, but also in capturing a lot of nuance about race in America. It is so far above the standard we're used to from our pols…. But you know me. Starry-eyed Obama groupie.

I suppose it's only a matter of time before some Clinton surrogate pulls out The Bell Curve and demands that Obama distance himself from Murray.

Comments

[Jamie Kelly]

- In a sermon after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001:
``We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye,'' Wright said. ``We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost.''
- In a 2003 sermon, he said blacks should condemn the United States:
``The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.''
- Promoting Obama's candidacy in a sermon last December:
``Barack knows what it means to be a black man to be living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people. Hillary can never know that. Hillary ain't never been called a nigger.''

I don't see anything terribly racist about any of this stuff, but I suspect the man is deeply distrustful of white people.

[Jamie Kelly]

And quite possibly mentally ill.

[Elemenope]

If you were a black man in America, would you trust whitey?

And on the subject of God blessing America...I don't recall that working out very well for any of the other countries so blessed. That shit is like malaria, from the viewpoint of history; keep it the fuck away.

[Guy Montag]

I suppose it's only a matter of time before some Clinton surrogate pulls out The Bell Curve and demands that Obama distance himself from Murray.

By how many standard deviations?

[BK]

I agree that it was brilliant. But check out how Pat Buchanan distorts and exaggerates Obama's relationship with Rev. Wright. The link is Here.

[Elemenope]

And, not for nothing, but when the American flag comes to stand for many evil things to the people around the globe (as it has in Vietman, Chile, Iran, and now Iraq for good reasons), Wright doesn't sound all that crazy.

Now, AIDS as the white man's conspiracy, that's crazy. On the other hand, I remember an interview that Cornel West did on Real Time a little while ago when they were talking about 9/11 truthers, and he said while he thought the 9/11 truth movement claims themselves were a bit silly, when "the man" has been lying about so much for so long, it's hard to give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

[Jamie Kelly]

God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.

That's actually one of the most libertarian statements I've ever read.

[Guy Montag]

What is it with Dems and their Churches?

This is giving me pre-Carter election flashbacks.

[Jamie Kelly]

On the other hand ...

Barack knows what it means to be a black man to be living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people.

And he knows that by becoming a rich black man.

[Guy Montag]

And he knows that by becoming a rich black man. And an elected official who wants the means of production controlled by the state.

[km]

Vis-a-vis Murray's love for Obama: you can't make this shit up!

[Elemenope]

That's actually one of the most libertarian statements I've ever read.

How does the saying go? "If the founding fathers were around saying what they said two hundred years ago, we'd have locked them up".

Occasionally Libertarians forget than Libertarian ideology is unapologetically RADICAL.

[Cesar]

"If the founding fathers were around saying what they said two hundred years ago, we'd have locked them up".

Locked up? They would be executed, just as they were under a death mark from the King until the war was over.

[Elemenope]

"Shot"..."Locked Up"....

I imagine it would be six and one half dozen for a person who loved liberty...

[joe]

I don't see anything terribly racist about any of this stuff, but I suspect the man is deeply distrustful of white people.
Jamie Kelly | March 18, 2008, 2:02pm | #

And quite possibly mentally ill.

And also...NOT running for president.

[kinnath]

Occasionally Libertarians forget than Libertarian ideology is unapologetically RADICAL.

National Teasure was on agina this weekend. Mostly a lousy movie, but it does have a nice moment when Cage explains that the founding fathers committed high treason and would have been subject to being hung, drawn, and quartered if the revolution failed.

[kinnath]

Damn, too slow again.

[some guy]

Obama is toast.
No, wait! He's back in it!
But he was never out of it!
You're wrong, he was out of it last night!
But now he's back in it!

[Terry Michael]

Stipulated, I am a strong Obama supporter. But any thoughtful review of Sen. Obama's speech would have to conclude it was the most eloquent and intelligent review of race in America uttered by any politician, white or black, in the decades since adoption of the Civil Rights Act. Those 37 minutes also offer an object lesson in why our political discourse is so cheapened by sound-bite politics. Obama's was a whole, coherent argument about the irrationalities on both sides of the racial divide in America, as well an argument for the opportunities we have to get past the stereotypes held in the minds of both those who argue no racial progress has been made, and those who continue to demand race-based entitlements. Barack Obama's election will put liberal racists like Al Sharpton out of business, but it also will challenge whites to see past race.

[Pinette]

Obama's speech was very good, but it failed to answer something for me. He basically pointed out the the difficulties faced by black people and their complaints about their situations were legitimate. He also said that many of the complaints and troubles faced by white middle class were legitimate.
But what does he propose we do about it? He says many of the problems in black communities are the result of past oppression. I don't disagree, but we can't change the past.
My ideal situation would be to stop talking about race at all, and deal with our problems without blaming everything on racism.
This speech could be an argument for reparations just as easily as it could be an argument for racial healing.

[deron]

I agree with Pinette. I suspect Obama would rather not talk about race. People were happy to let that remain the situation until Hillary fell behind, and the GOP began running against Obama.

Race was going to be thrust on this campaign one way or another.

[Elemenope]

National Treasure was on again this weekend. Mostly a lousy movie, but it does have a nice moment when Cage explains that the founding fathers committed high treason and would have been subject to being hung, drawn, and quartered if the revolution failed.

I liked that moment, too. As far as quality goes, I dunno; Nicolas Cage seems to me like the Ronald McDonald of film making. McDonald's: Not healthy, but guilty pleasure that *tastes* good.

I hear the second one was completely useless.

[joe]

This speech could be an argument for reparations just as easily as it could be an argument for racial healing.

That's the point, I think. The facts of American history DO provide grist for a vengeful, insular, reparationist ideology among black people.

But what Barack Obama's speech, and all of his statements about race during this campaign, demonstrate is that they NEED NOT lead inevitably to such an ideology. There is another path you can follow that takes that history, that ongoing history, into account, without being Jeremiah Wright.

[Paul]

God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.

I said the same thing about the King County and Seattle city councils, no one thought I was insane... I mean, well, no more than... never mind.

[kinnath]

McDonald's: Not healthy, but guilty pleasure that *tastes* good.

National Treasure was as good as all the late-night adventure/horror shows from the 30's/40's that I watched on Saturday night when I was a kid.

It's entertaining enough when I'm too lazy to do anything else that I'll put up with the hour's worth of commercials that USA Network stuffs in it. But I haven't felt the need to buy or rent the DVD.

[Reinmoose]

The thing about Obama's speech that shook me the most, I think, was that the only thing he could think of to highlight that whites don't always have it easy is that their jobs get shipped to China, or whatever. Now really, there REALLY aren't that many jobs that get shipped to China, especially in proportion to the number of blacks who, at some point during their lives, experienced discrimination.

[Warren]

That was the most brilliant political analysis and shrewdest posturing I've seen in many a year. Not Obama's speech, I'm talking about Murray praising Barack in order to aggravate leftist unease.

[dhex]

I said the same thing about the King County and Seattle city councils, no one thought I was insane...

i would think most of us have said something like that from time to time, if not at every meal.

[Gabe Harris]

I'm on the verge of upperclass, elite college educated, white person and I don't trust rich white people. I've also never voted for a democrat but I'd actually prefer Mr Wright to be president over Mr Obama. Mr Wright is against the drug war, I thought that was popular here?!? He fully understands the concept of blowback, I thought that would be respected here?!? Hillary probably hasn't been called a nigger...that doesn't matter a whole lot to me, but it rings true and I do prefer truth out of a candidate....I'm atheist but if Mr Wright is coming to boston maybe I'd go check it out he seems better than most preachers I've heard. I think you guys are racist if you think there is something wrong with that guy.

[ithaqua]

"My ideal situation would be to stop talking about race at all, and deal with our problems without blaming everything on racism. "

And then we can all hold hands and go skipping through the daisies together singing 'Kumbayah'. How nice. For myself, I'll stop talking about racism as soon as racism is no longer a factor - when, for example, 'driving while black' stops being a crime, or HR departments stop preferring white felons over black non-felons, or black students are no longer arrested for attempted murder over a schoolyard brawl or sentenced to ten years in jail for oral sex with a white girl... you get the point, I hope.

Let me be blunt: Rev. Wright's comments are *only* an issue because he's black. Republican religious leaders have been damming America for years and years - Damn America for its tolerance of gays! Damn America for its Christ-denying, evolution-worshipping public schools! Damn America for its feminism, and its family-destroying welfare state, and its murder of unborn children, and so on and so forth. But because Rev. Wright's a black man, and his rhetoric is targeted against white men (that is, Real Americans (tm) ) and not against inferior beings like gays and women and minorities, the MSM opens up on him with all guns blazing. And you tell me race isn't an issue? You tell me that all we have to do is not mention when someone's being racist and it'll all go away? Really?

[Ben Funderburk]

A great speech in this day and age. HOWEVER, it was reactionary and delivered days--and in my opinion months--too late to be truly profound. Having grown up as a white man in a predominately black community outside Washington DC, I have learned to navigate the great "race" debate with more wisdom each passing year. Sensitivity, candidness, patience, and a aim toward short and long term healing must be embraced. I tend to believe Obama believes in these things, too. Sadly, I think he's more concerned about being a politician than a true revolutionary for change. Politics will not allow him to practice this level of candidness. It's about power and control, period.

Also, I'm curious to see how the talking heads on the left react. The same sentiments Obama made about Rev. Wright have been made by conservatives about their religious leaders: Falwell, Robertson, etc. As an avowed atheist, I have no loyalties to them, however, but I believe the left will be more "accepting" of Rev. Wright after this speech unlike their track record of hate and discontent for Evangelicals. I disagree with a lot of what they say, but having been raised in that environment, I at least know their intentions, though misplaced and wrong at times, are good.

Lastly, I wish it was Bobby Jindal and Obama running this year. Sigh... maybe in 2012.

[joe]

Ever read Jeremiah?

If Jeremiah Wright is anti-American, then O.G. Jeremiah was an anti-semite.

[Cesar]

Joe-

Jesus would be an anti-semite too, then.

[joe]

A great speech in this day and age. HOWEVER, it was reactionary and delivered days--and in my opinion months--too late to be truly profound.

Actually, he's been preaching this message his entire campaign. It's just now that it's getting attention, because of the Wright factor.

Bobby Jindal? If Obama wins this election, I would put money on Gov. Jindal being on the 2012 Republican ticket. That guy is one smart cookie.

[ithaqua]

"The thing about Obama's speech that shook me the most, I think, was that the only thing he could think of to highlight that whites don't always have it easy is that their jobs get shipped to China, or whatever. Now really, there REALLY aren't that many jobs that get shipped to China, especially in proportion to the number of blacks who, at some point during their lives, experienced discrimination."

Precisely. America is a white supremist nation. The only thing that's changed since the heyday of the Klan is that now we feel guilty about it. So we take the Jim Crow laws off the books and stick our fingers in our ears and talk about 'individual responsibility' when one in four blacks live in poverty and there are more black men in prison than in college, because as long as no one explicitly says that they're discriminating against blacks, we can pretend that institutionalized racism doesn't exist anymore and all its consequences have gone away.

So we have people like Pinette, who want us to 'just stop talking about racism'. And we have Obama, who, in order to stand a chance at election, has to assuage the white guilt of people like Pinette and pretend that discrimination doesn't exist and that American blacks and whites are one big happy family. And no genuine social change occurs. Of course.

[Cesar]

I think Obama saying "white people have resentments and issues, too" was pretty brilliant politically.

[ithaqua]

"but I believe the left will be more "accepting" of Rev. Wright after this speech unlike their track record of hate and discontent for Evangelicals."

Rev. White attacks the oppressors. Evangelicals attack the oppressed. You really think the left-wing reaction should be the same for both?

[joe]

He got game, Cesar.

Even setting aside the way the issues and circumstances favor the Democrats this year - how is McGrumpy supposed to compete against this guy in an election?

ithaqua,

Maybe it's just my white-guy blinders, but I didn't see Obama denying that racism and its effects exist. I saw him talking about finding another way out.

[Vanessa]

Hey, I never realized that the young woman in the Genarlow Wilson case was white. That does explain some things.

"Republican religious leaders have been damming America for years and years."

No, they simply inform the public that God is damning America for these things. To damn America themselves would be playing God, and you know how they feel about that. Seems awfully presumptuous to speak for God but I'm not sure Christians regard hubris as a sin.

[dodsworth]

The only thing that's changed since the heyday of the Klan is that now we feel guilty about it

Hogwash! To pretend that nothing has changed since the days when thousands of whites lined up to watch blacks being burned at the stake is downright looney. It is also an insult to thousands of blacks and whites who improved our lives by fighting this kind of oppression.

[joe]

This is what Obama has done so well throughout this camapaign - counterpunched.

Remember "just words?" Remember "not seasoned?" Remember "ready on Day One?"

All of Obama's greatest coups have come from ju-jitsu, turning attacks on him into strengths. This might turn out to be the biggest of them all.

[joe]

The only thing that's changed since the heyday of the Klan is that now we feel guilty about it

This anti-racism goes to eleven.

[Reinmoose]

I think Obama saying "white people have resentments and issues, too" was pretty brilliant politically.

I agree. Had he not addressed this, I would have considered his speech to be a political failure.

[joe]

Had he not said that, he wouldn't have been Barack Obama.

Had he not believed that, and had a genuine commitment to the ideas he expressed today, he wouldn't be the odds-on favorite to be the next president.

This speech was so powerful because the ideas behind it weren't something he and some speechwriters he hired came up with last night.

[Cesar]

I'll put it this way, joe. Obama would be perfect for a German or Israeli-style Presidency where the President is merely a ceremonial head of state and national cheerleader.

[dodsworth]

Joe:

Actually, he's been preaching this message his entire campaign. It's just now that it's getting attention, because of the Wright factor.

There is one signficant and very revealing exception. Only a few days ago, he was saying that Wright ALWAYS (Obama's precise word) had ONLY taught a gospel of love when he was present. Is there anything you don't give Obama a pass on?

[Reinmoose]

At any rate, in addressing the white but unemployed former factory workers, he effectively tried to balance the "THEY TOOK ER JERBS!" with the people they tend to accuse of taking their jobs. This is something that democrats have struggled with for years, and if Obama can unite the factions of the Democratic party, he'll be practically unstoppable.

[Pro Libertate]

Cesar,

I keep hearing that, but, honestly, what else could he say? If he alienates any portion of the white population (not counting the pre-alienated racist component), he loses. He at least wasn't stupid, but brilliant I reserve for other, less politically obvious statements. I give him full credit for sticking to the middle road, though. It must be tempting in primary season to try to lock up the black vote.

For Obama to prevail, he'll have to negotiate this and other racially charged issues (and there'll be plenty, I'm sure) very cautiously. If, at any moment, it appears that race issues will constitute a major part of his administration, he's toast.

I have a feeling the general is going to be ugly, if not directly between McCain and Obama, certainly between the parties.

joe,

I think you just said that his words overcome his reputation of being just about words. That's a tautology. Incidentally, you're giddy as a school girl 🙂

[joe]

dodsworth,

Only a few days ago, he was saying that Wright ALWAYS (Obama's precise word) had ONLY taught a gospel of love when he was present.

No, he didn't. I watched the interview, and he only said that he was not present for "these statements we've been seeing over and over." He made it quite clear that he'd been present for some controversial stuff.

[kinnath]

ithaqua . . . troll or lunatic . . . . enquiring minds want to know.

[joe]

It looks like even the anti-Obama people have been forced to change their talking points from "Obama is a scary black guy" to "Obama was spinning in an interview."

Pro Libertate, I'm giddy because, for the first time in my life, the issue of racism has entered our political discourse and there is hope for the conversation to actually accomplish something good. And because, while there are those who are going to keep trying to sow racial discord, I feel confident that they are politically outmatched.

Yeah, it's a good feeling.

[Neu Mejican]

But you know me. Starry-eyed Obama groupie.

Charles Murray, king of confirmation bias.

;^)

He should really stick to politics.
He does it better than science.

[TallDave]

I suppose it's only a matter of time before some Clinton surrogate pulls out The Bell Curve and demands that Obama distance himself from Murray.

What if Murray founds a Bell Curve Church which Obama attends for 20 years, performs Obama's marriage, and is a close advisor and part of his campaign?

Of course, if Obama says "You know, I read Murray's book, and if the rest of nation did too we wouldn't have all these problems" then Obama must be denounced and give up his party leadership position.

[joe]

Did someone say something about "flogging racial discord" and "outmatched?"

[TallDave]

while there are those who are going to keep trying to sow racial discord, I feel confident that they are politically outmatched.

LOL Even the ones who are pastors to Democratic Presidential candidates?

[Neu Mejican]

TallDave,

You are tenacious, I'll give ya that.

[Guy Montag]

Can't we all just get along?

[dodsworth]

Joe said: No, he didn't. I watched the interview, and he only said that he was not present for "these statements we've been seeing over and over." He made it quite clear that he'd been present for some controversial stuff.

Let me refresh your memory. This is from a statement written on March 14 by Obama himself (that is unless he had a ghostwriter!):

Most importantly, Rev. Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life. In other words, he has never been my political advisor; he's been my pastor. And the sermons I heard him preach always [my emphasis] related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.

For the full statement, see here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html

[Neu Mejican]

TallDave,

Tell me honestly...

Has this whole affair changed your opinion about Obama?

Has it confirmed what you always suspected?

[Gilbert Martin]

If Obama's speech was "brilliant" all right - a brilliant attempt to spin his previous lies about the reverend.

He claimed the other day that he'd never heard Wright say any of these type things despite going to that church for 20 years. He tried to put forth the notion that he had no idea what kind of stuff Wright was preaching in all that time.

He saw that wasn't going to fly, so now he's trying to have his cake and eat it too by repudiating what Wright said (to pacify white voters) while not disassociating himself from Wright (to pacify black voters) - and using bogus analogies about his grandmother to do it.

Obama tries to position himself as a transcendant figure, a "unifer" who is above all the racial group identidy politics endemic in the Democrat party when he is nothing of the sort. His policy positions are the same old liberal orthodoxy, supporting "affirmative action", etc. as all the rest of the liberal democrats who've been playing group identity politics for decades.

[bigbigslacker]

The only reason some of us havn't piled on top of a few stupid comments in this thread is...well, you know.

[Jamie Kelly]

Can't we all just get along?

Go fuck yourself, honkey.

[Neu Mejican]

always [my emphasis] related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.

You realize, I hope, that a sermon "related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn" can include some of the controversial statements that have cause such stink, right?

[Fluffy]

Wright ALWAYS (Obama's precise word) had ONLY taught a gospel of love when he was present.

And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.

These aren't the same thing.

It's possible for every sermon to include material about "our obligation to love God and one another" and ALSO to include "fuck all y'all who don't do that, damn white crackers!"

[Neu Mejican]

Beat ya to it Fluffy.

[bookworm]

Had he not believed that, and had a genuine commitment to the ideas he expressed today, he wouldn't be the odds-on favorite to be the next president."

Is he? The polls lately have shown him falling lately with McCain now leading in the polls.

[Neu Mejican]

Why can't this be a thread about how Charles Murray is or isn't a racist.

His statements and Wright's would make a good point-counterpoint.

[FatDrunkAndStupid]

The speech struck me as a complete disaster. Obama had a chance to come up with something bold (ending affirmative actions for example). Instead, it was just blah, blah, blah, black people, blah, blah, blah, white people. The only thing he really accomplished is reminding people that he's part black, which is the opposite of what he should have been trying to do.

[TallDave]

Has this whole affair changed your opinion about Obama? Has it confirmed what you always suspected?

Well, I was surprised he hung out with such radical lefties. That was pretty unexpected, for an Illinoisan.

Obama's done something very clever: he's given a lot of lip service to "compromise" and "healing" while campaigning about as far-left as possible. I'm not sure whether that means he'll run as a centrist in the general, in which case he might get my vote, or if he's just slippery. I've heard him speak against teacher's unions and there was that pro-NAFTA slip.

If Hillary had done the honorable thing and bowed out, I think it would be a very different race. If she keeps this going through the summer, I don't see how tacks right fast enough to win without looking totally unprincipled.

[joe]

LOL Even the ones who are pastors to Democratic Presidential candidates?

Yup.

[Neu Mejican]

TallDave,

Go here.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/civilrights/

Is this what you mean by radical lefty?

[Pinette]

"So we have people like Pinette, who want us to 'just stop talking about racism'. And we have Obama, who, in order to stand a chance at election, has to assuage the white guilt of people like Pinette and pretend that discrimination doesn't exist and that American blacks and whites are one big happy family. And no genuine social change occurs. Of course."

Ithiqua,
You are an idiot. You misunderstood me in the first place. Why do you assume I feel guilty for being white? do all white people feel guilty? Should they?
Yes, I believe America should be one big happy family and that black people and white people can get along just fine. I also believe it is people like you who keep us from reaching this goal entirely.
And are you really trying to suggest that we have made no progress?

[Guy Montag]

Idunno, that speech seems to share some reused elements. Not reused words, it just seems a little familiar.

Here are some quotes from a different person.

At the end of the day, we must go forward with hope and not backward by fear and division.

Both tears and sweat are salty, but they render a different result. Tears will get you sympathy; sweat will get you change.

A man must be willing to die for justice. Death is an inescapable reality and men die daily, but good deeds live forever.

America is not a blanket woven from one thread, one color, one cloth.

Hold your head high, stick your chest out. You can make it. It gets dark sometimes, but morning comes. Keep hope alive.

I am not a perfect servant. I am a public servant doing my best against the odds. As I develop and serve, be patient. God is not finished with me yet.

I cast my bread on the waters long ago. Now it's time for you to send it back to me - toasted and buttered on both sides.

I hear that melting-pot stuff a lot, and all I can say is that we haven't melted.

I know they are all environmentalists. I heard a lot of my speeches recycled.

If my mind can conceive it, and my heart can believe it, I know I can achieve it.

In many ways, history is marked as 'before' and 'after' Rosa Parks. She sat down in order that we all might stand up, and the walls of segregation came down.

It is time for us to turn to each other, not on each other.

Leadership has a harder job to do than just choose sides. It must bring sides together.

No one should negotiate their dreams. Dreams must be free to fly high. No government, no legislature, has a right to limit your dreams. You should never agree to surrender your dreams.

Our dreams must be stronger than our memories. We must be pulled by our dreams, rater than pushed by our memories.

[joe]

dodsworth, I don't know what kind of church you go to, but preaching the words of Jesus, telling us to seek justice and serve the poor, and being controversial are not mutually exclusive.

Do you ever crack your Bible?

[Neu Mejican]

Or is it this stuff?
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/poverty/

I think Wright would advocate for many of these programs, but they seem to include solutions from both sides of the aisle, as it were.

[joe]

BTW, dodsworth, seeing has how I was taking about an interview, and you linked to a blog post, maybe should have indicated something to you.

[Pro Libertate]

Like joe said in a previous thread, this issue really remains an open one until the media does its job of digging deeper. If there's a real contradiction in Obama's public statements and his private ones (or private behavior), then we have a legitimate issue. Until then, this is a somewhat negative association, but I'm not sure how much more negative it is than some of the other candidates' associations.

I do think Wright is an idiot, so I'm a little perturbed at seeing defenses of his more radical positions.

As for what Obama may or may not do for race relations, in 2008, I don't think race is our biggest problem. He's got to appear strong on the major issues of today, with the race stuff being a "nice to have"; otherwise, he's going to face serious challenges.

Guy,

To be fair, Lincoln ripped off Pericles. Not that I'm making any comparisons.

[joe]

The only people who still think this story has legs (or who desperately want it to) are people who use the phrase "Democrat Party."

Say goodnight, Gracie. It's just not going to be a good year for people seeking to whip up racial animus for political gain.

[TallDave]

More like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_%28organization%29

they distinguished themselves from other self-proclaimed revolutionary groups by claiming that there was no time to build a vanguard party and that revolutionary war against the United States and the capitalist system should begin immediately. To that end, they carried out one of the first domestic terror campaigns in the United States, consisting of bombings, jailbreaks, and riots.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JC18Aa01.html

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community...Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal.

[TallDave]

It's just not going to be a good year for people seeking to whip up racial animus for political gain.

You mean Obama's pastor's candidate is going to lose?

[brotherben]

Call me jaded. Call me racist. I have lived in Alabama and Mississippi for nearly half my life.
I think Wright, no matter the validity of his speaking, makes a lot of white folks nervous and some white folks angry. Obama, to those that are nervous or angry, seems to be doing the two step politically speaking. I suspect that there are alot more of these twitchy voters than most of you here seem to think. At this point, he is to me, the least unpalatable of the big 3 candidates.

That being said, I think this will be like a scab. The msm is gonna keep picking at it till it festers. At some point, he will no longer be a viable candidate and I predict he will drop out before the dems convention.
I don't believe that the msm likes Hillary more.I just think they see it as their job to vet the candidates as thouroughly as possible. Truth be damned.

[Cesar]

The Weatherman thing is so laughable to me. He was seven years old when they were active. I didn't even know who "The Weathermen" were until a week ago. The only people who make a big deal about this seem to be baby boomers.

[TallDave]

The Weatherman thing is so laughable to me. He was seven years old when they were active.

Well, I was asked what I meant by radical lefty. Bill Ayers certainly fits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

[joe]

You mean Obama's pastor's candidate is going to lose?

You mean the guy who was put out to pasture, disinvited from his campaign announcement, and was denounced in today's speech?

Yup.

How many times do you think I'm going to have to give you this answer before you realize you're shooting blanks?

[Guy Montag]

The Weatherman thing is so laughable to me. He was seven years old when they were active. I didn't even know who "The Weathermen" were until a week ago. The only people who make a big deal about this seem to be baby boomers.

So it is impossible for your generation to be Stalinists too, because he was dead before you guys (and my guys) came along?

I feel so relieved now!

[Cesar]

So, TallDave, you're saying Obama is a revolutionary Communist? Ok, um, thats kind of nutty.

[Pro Libertate]

brotherben,

Could be worse. You could have been born in Alabama and be an Urkobold writer:

Hey Urkobolds, how about keeping your schtick confined to your own unfunny, racist [!?] website and keep it off of here.

Thank you.

Edward

Unfunny and racist. Truly the lowest of the low. Funny racists are another matter altogether, of course.

[joe]

brotherben,

Look at the cast of characters who are still hung up on this.

They're all people who were in the bag for the Republican six months ago.

Do you see any non-GOP shills on any of these threads still trying to work this angle?

[TallDave]

So, TallDave, you're saying Obama is a revolutionary Communist? Ok, um, thats kind of nutty.

No, I said I was surprised he hung out with Bill Ayers, a radical lefty.

[Jamie Kelly]

joe is right about Obama being right. And I for one am not going to stand here and watch this argument I built with my own two hands ....

Polite way of saying that I actually agree with joe.
It'll never happen again. Until, of course, he comes around to my way of thinking.

[TallDave]

You mean the guy who was put out to pasture, disinvited from his campaign announcement, and was denounced in today's speech?

LOL No, I mean the candidacy of his lifelong friend that he campaigned for.

[joe]

It's not accidental that Obama's speech today keeps generating "I agree with joe" comments.

[Jamie Kelly]

Pro Libertate,
Oh, how you made me miss Edweirdo ... damn, I'm all sentimental.
And Dan T.
And all my friends in the car club, who called me "the Cruiser" ...
*sniff*

[Dee]

I am white and don't trust whitey anymore than I trust blackie, brownie or greenie for that matter. Every race will screw you over there is no denying that fact. The speech was lame at best with the same old same old which is surely going to yield the same old shit we have always had.

Sorry I feel no white mans remorse for blacks. No one in my family ever owned anyone else or profited from the use of slave labor. I still say if its so bad here give every "African American," a one way ticket to anywhere they choose in Africa. Something tells me the line will be short.

The thing about these speeches I find amusing is that the chance he actually wrote it is about .001%

[brotherben]

It would seem then, Joe, that a very vocal segment of the populace isn't at a level of wisdom or social evolution that would allow for Mr. Obama to seriously address the racial tension in this country. Just wanna poke the brother with the cross?

[TallDave]

Do you see any non-GOP shills on any of these threads still trying to work this angle?

I see a lot of nervous Dem shills still hoping in vain this whole Rev Wright thing will just go away.

[joe]

Oops, I misread TallDave's statement.

The idea that is was OBAMA HIMSELF that is whipping up racial animus is so absurd that I just skimmed right over it.

That's right, everybody: the people who still think this story disqualifies Barack Obama are people like TallDave, who look at the speech Obama gave today and describe as "whipping up racial animus."

[brotherben]

Joe,
your self congratulating is almost pornographical.

[joe]

I see a lot of nervous Dem shills still hoping in vain this whole Rev Wright thing will just go away.

Not anymore you don't. This is going to help him, and I'm "giddy as a schoolgirl."

[Cesar]

I'm a Dem shill? Brotherben is a Dem shill? Jamie Kelly is a Dem shill? High # is a Dem shill? Charles Murray is a Dem shill? Orly?

[Jamie Kelly]

That said, joe, you have to agree that Obama -- like all politicians -- is as out of touch with America's po' white trash as Rush Limbaugh is with black inner-city teenagers.

[joe]

brotherben,

your self congratulating is almost pornographical. You misunderstand. I'm not saying that Obama's speech made everyone convert to my point of view, but that it allowed people with very different points of view to find common ground on the most divisive issue of the last two centuries.

[Pro Libertate]

joe,

Actually, even you said something about "let's see what this is all about" in an earlier thread. Though I agree with your preliminary view that it's much ado about very little. Still, non-GOP shills can be made a little uncomfortable by this odd association.

I still don't care for Obama, don't see him as anything especially different, and don't at all share the strange enthusiasm that some have for him, but I don't like McCain either. Go figure, a libertarian despises both of the major party candidates!

By the way, the giddy line is Mike Myers' (as Dieter), so be sure to cite it in the future.

Jamie Kelly,

I miss him, too. His comments comprise most of our endorsements sidebar. Though I do suspect that there is Edward, then there is "Edward".

[joe]

Jamie Kelly,

Of course. He's a guy who goes up to strangers and talks about how wonderful he is for a living.

But that's what our politics is about. That's who becomes president. We could have another Southern Strategy candidate. We could have Hillary Clinton and her deliberate race-baiting.

Sure, he's just a politician, but he's a better model politician, and he just proved that our political discourse actually can make some headway on this.

[Taktix?]

Wow, that's tastier than a sack full of kidneys...

[Elemenope]

...is as out of touch with America's po' white trash as Rush Limbaugh is with black inner-city teenagers.

Why on earth would you want to be *in touch* with them?

[Terry Michael]

The level of cynicism I read in so many Hit & Run "comments" is often exceeded only by the incredible ignorance so often exhibited here. I can only assume that most of the people who read this site are NOT libertarians, but just politically foolish. If I weren't so libertarian, I would recommend to the editors that they require a literacy test for posting. I would be amazed if more than 10% of those who post here have actually read the original piece (in this case a speech) on which they're commenting.

[Jamie Kelly]

Dee --
I still say if its so bad here give every "African American," a one way ticket to anywhere they choose in Africa. Something tells me the line will be short.

That fucking Mongoloid thinking is still around?
You do understand that African-Americans LIVE here, right? Have personal and family histories here, right? That like all Americans they care deeply about this country and want to see it improved, right?

[Jamie Kelly]

Sure, he's just a politician, but he's a better model politician, and he just proved that our political discourse actually can make some headway on this.

Agreed.

[TallDave]

joe,

LMAO You still don't get it.

You sit here mouthing racial pieties about how we're finally going to make progress, etc, etc -- while your candidate's campaign is crumbling precisely because he chose to closely associate himself with someone who was "whipping up racial animus."

Irony and hilarity seldom meet so convivially.

[joe]

Pro Lib,

Absolutely, it was an issue, and one he had to answer for.

My point: he did. It's only AFTER that speech that only GOP shills and outright racists can still claim this story should be held against Obama.

[FatDrunkAndStupid]

The bottom line is that today's speech cements Barack as "the black candidate". It was a political miscalculation of epic proportions, but isn't all that surprising because Obama has shown what a political novice he is with misstep after misstep the past two weeks. I think its for the best, because Hillary/McCain probably gives Ventura or Barr a better chance at getting their voice heard than Obama/McCain.

[Pain]

joe,

Please quit acting like you wrote the speech. It really is sickeniing.

[joe]

TallDave,

I am going to quote your last post on every thread you pollute with your presence for the rest of the campaign.

Something you are about to learn: most white Americans despise people like you, and are eager to dissociate themselves from you.

[brotherben]

Joe,
I did not misunderstand. I just want to hack on you a bit. Attempted humour and all that rubbish.

[joe]

No, Pain. I am not going to stop lauding this speech, and I am not going to stop being impressed by Obama's leadership on this issue.

If that makes you uncomfortable, prepare to have a very bad year.

[TallDave]

This is going to help him,

ROTFLMAO!!

My point: he did. It's only AFTER that speech that only GOP shills and outright racists can still claim this story should be held against Obama

Ah, I see. By denouncing his association with a racist, we're the racists! It's like, um, double-secret reverse racism, or something!

Man, you couldn't make this stuff up.

[joe]

Dead man posting!

[joe]

Hey, TallDave, you see those awkward "I agree with joe" comments all over this thread, and the previous one?

Have you had anyone who isn't already a longstanding GOP shill like yourself write about agreeing with you?

Why do you think that is?

[TallDave]

I am going to quote your last post on every thread you pollute with your presence for the rest of the campaign.

Please do, it'll be funnier every time!

Now, call me a racist again, maybe for using black fonts or something.

[Neu Mejican]

TallDave,

The Weatherman
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/02/obamas_weatherman_connection.html

I don't understand why you think the people Obama knows, no matter how incidentally somehow adhere to his positions/proposals and somehow taint his candidacy.

I think Obama is center left.
Pretty mainstream for the Democratic Party.

Who cares where his associates fall on the political spectrum.

I mean he works with this guy...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Lott
and this guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kucinich

And I even hear he might be friendly with them on occasion.

[Jamie Kelly]

TallDave,
I don't think racial paranoia or hyperbole -- which in this case Wright exhibited -- necessarily equates to racism.
Either way, Obama showed plenty of principle when publicly disassociating himself from those comments.

[Abdul]

Joe,

Rev. Wright reliably informs me that the Bible says you cannot have two loves in your life. this raises the question: Are you more in love with yourself or Obama?

[Guy Montag]

TallDave,

You must remember the racism rule: if you are not a Democrat shill, then you are a racist. Racism transcends all races, faiths, cultures and skintones but immunity can only be granted by being a member of a particular political party.

[joe]

I didn't call you a racist, TallDave.

I called you a partisan shill who cynically works to whip up racial animus for your political ends.

And I'll write that in any font I can.

TallDave, you are a partisan shill who cynically whips up racial animus for your political purposes.

TallDave, you are a partisan shill who cynically whips up racial animus for your political purposes.

Uh...that's all I know.

[brotherben]

Joe, maybe it's because I live in th deep south, or maybe I am not honest enough to realize my own racism and I am projecting. I think that there are many many more white Americans than you seem to think that agree enough with talldave for this to have legs. Not taking sides, just suggesting that this is much larger than most folks here realize.

please insert commas where fitting.

[joe]

Abdul,

Neither can compete with your mom.

[Guy Montag]

Rev. Wright reliably informs me that the Bible says you cannot have two loves in your life.

I thought that was from those silly ED pill commercials?

[TallDave]

IDK about any "i agree with joe" posts, but I did see several "joe's self-congratulation is sickening" posts. Is that the same thing in your strange little world where denouncing racism is racist?

[Abdul]

My mom for president!

[Gilbert Martin]

"you see those awkward "I agree with joe" comments all over this thread, and the previous one?"

Which don't prove a thing.

[joe]

Now look at them pretend they've been accused of being racists.

Lesson: these people don't want the racial healling Obama was talking about today. They want to keep white and black Americans at each others' throats, and will say anything to make it happen.

[brotherben]

I didn't say sickening. I suggested it was aphrodisiacal

[joe]

Funny, TallDave, Gil can see them.

Gil,

They prove that TallDave, Guy Montag, and you are out on your own little island.

[TallDave]

I called you a partisan shill who cynically works to whip up racial animus for your political ends.

lawlz

Ah, so by denouncing Wright's racism, I "whip up racial animus for [my] political ends."

Because, you see, denouncing racism is double-secret reverse joetastic racism!

[Gilbert Martin]

"They prove that TallDave, Guy Montag, and you are out on your own little island."

Nope. They still don't prove a thing.

[alan]

My point: he did. It's only AFTER that speech that only GOP shills and outright racists can still claim this story should be held against Obama.

Back to Earth, Joe. A speech is a speech (poets, priest and politicians use words for your submission), it doesn't prove any intent of previous actions which the Republican shills, racist, Hillary operatives, journalist, and may be even empirically inclined social scientist as well as Americans curious about someone who may be their next president may be attempting to do by figuring out what Obama was doing with his time one out of every seven days.

[Neu Mejican]

joe, talldave.

Digital ches-puffing is boring.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://static.kdenews.org/danimo/rejoicing_peacocks.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thefinalclub.org/blogs/fall2007/SciB47/%3Fp%3D30&h=140&w=105&sz=191&tbnid=9jjI31CGHzcJ:&tbnh=140&tbnw=105&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPeacocks&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=1

[Gilbert Martin]

Obama is just another liberal who has a little more talent for slick talking than most of the other ones.

[TallDave]

Back to Earth, Joe.

Hey, no way! He's much more entertaining where he is!

[Digital Chest Puffing]

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Evd

[Guy Montag]

Gilbert Martin,

No kidding, since I am one in that group who has barely said a thing about the speech and what little I have has nothing to do with partisainship.

[Digital Chest Puffing]

http://www.springerlink.com/content/hnfvrqcjtulv2wlw/

Chemicals carried in the urine are a rich source of information about the identity, sex, aggressive motivation, and other attributes of an animal. In agonistic interactions, animals should be careful about disclosing such information, since it can be used by receivers to the disadvantage of the sender. By adjusting the timing of urine release, the signaler may still influence the behavior of the receiver to its own benefit. Here we investigate the urine signaling of American

[joe]

Ah, so by denouncing Wright's racism, I "whip up racial animus for [my] political ends."

Nope, by imputing it to Obama AFTER today's speech, and flailing so desperately to keep the dead story alive, you are whipping up racial animus for your political ends.

Do you actually think you're fooling anybody?

[brotherben]

well,
the mrs. is here for her bi-annual service.

I will see ya'll laters. I hope for all of you a great evening and a safe nite in light of all the strong storms.

Peace out.

[TallDave]

Nope, by imputing it to Obama AFTER today's speech

Ah yes, that magical speech that instantly absolves Obama of all questions relating to his 20-year relationship. Sorry, that only works in joeland.

dead story

Dead, you say?

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=us&q=wright+obama

Do you actually think you're fooling anybody?

Apparently I fooled Google, Reuters, AP, Yahoo News...

[joe]

I don't suppose you bothered to check out your search results.

Because the large majority of them are lauding Obama's speech today.

[Fluffy]

No, joe, they just have a shitty candidate [that scumbag crazy loser McCain] but they still are desperate to hold the White House for the GOP, so they are willing to pretend to believe literally anything for the sake of playing politics.

So they are willing to pretend to believe that Obama is the dangerous crazy race radical in the campaign, even though McCain freely admits that he hates "gooks" and freely admits that he can't imagine an Arab producing any economic good other than a burkha.

So they are willing to pretend to believe that Obama will be a big-government nightmare, even though McCain never met a new regulation he didn't like.

They are willing to pretend to believe that Obama is the dangerous anti-capitalist candidate in the race, even though McCain openly admits that he despises profit and anyone who seeks to make one.

They are willing to pretend to believe that Obama is dangerously naive and inexperienced on foreign affairs, even though McCain is too stupid to know that Al-Qaeda and Iran are enemies with more than a millenia's worth of grudge between them [without a staffer whispering in his ear every two seconds to keep the senile old bastard from fucking up in every sentence].

It's laughable, really.

[TallDave]

Because the large majority of them are lauding Obama's speech today

That was just to point out how ridiculous that "dead story" assertion was.

I thought it was a good speech too. The problem is no speech can undo what Wright said.

[joe]

Your story's dead, TallDave.

Obama's story, on the other hand, is all over the news.

[TallDave]

ROTFLMAO Yeah, keep telling yourself that.

[Cesar]

Dave you really need to find a new narrative.

[Elemenope]

The problem is no speech can undo what Wright said.

I suppose that's true. Now, what was it that Wright said that was supposed to matter? I forget.

[Pro Libertate]

Fluffy,

As I said above, we libertarians are positively screwed. Bigger and badder government is on the way!

joe,

Now let's not get too excited. The story will remain a story, because (1) it is a story, and (2) it is in the interests of Clinton and McCain for it to remain a story. Obama's speech will help minimize the damage, but if anything comes out making him look hypocritical (like he traveled to Libya with Wright (and yes, I know he didn't)), then he could have additional trouble down the road. We'll see. It's FOREVER until this will all be over.

[ChrisO]

The money quote, quite literally, in this speech is:

"And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care or education or the need to find good jobs for every American."

In other words, his big idea on bringing the races together is to raid my wallet even more thoroughly. Well geez, thanks for nothing, Senator.

[An adam]

So does Terry Michael's 4:12 post mean we can drink, or what?

[Gilbert Martin]

Obama is just another liberal who has a little more talent for slick talking than most of the other ones.

His concept of "unity" and "healing" is everyone agreeing to the longstanding leftist agenda.

Let's see him explicity denounce and call for the end of every affirmative action program in the country, every minority set-aside program in existence and all the other leftist, group indentity politics inspired policies that exist if he is so "transcendent" on race.

[Jamie Kelly]

In other words, his big idea on bringing the races together is to raid my wallet even more thoroughly.

No quasi-socialist ever called me "honkey."

[joe]

Pro Libertate,

Subterranean things like TallDave will keep talking about this, I'm sure.

But the effect on the campaign will either be minimal, or actually positive, for Obama.

Nobody remotely convinceable is going to believe that Reverend Wright speaks for Obama, but a lot of convinceable people have just seen, for the first time, Obama's message about overcoming the race wars of the previous generations.

[joe]

Chris Matthews just now: "A speech worthy of Abraham Lincoln."

"The best speech ever given on race in this country. One that went beyond I HAVE A DREAM, to I'VE LIVED THE DREAM, and I have lived in this country."

[Pro Libertate]

joe,

I don't know. If nothing more comes out in his association with Wright, then I tend to agree. Still, you are forgetting that Senator Clinton may want to fan the flames on this (quietly, of course) if she thinks it'll piss off the right people. In other words, it's not just the GOP fans you have to worry about.

I'm not sure I ready to put this up with Demosthenes just yet. Then again, I'm one of those cynics that never takes speeches seriously.

[Gilbert Martin]

"Chris Matthews just now: "A speech worthy of Abraham Lincoln."

As I recall, Matthews used to work for Tip O' Neal.

He's just another liberal talking head.

[joe]

Wow. You know what? I lowballed it.

We're back to Republican pundits falling in love with him again.

[Cesar]

Rich Lowry is just talking about how "mean" he was to his grandmother, thats probably going to be their new narrative.

[highnumber]

I think we're going to hear a lot about how this speech came too late or just emphasizes that Obama is The Black Candidate or that the speech doesn't matter.

I think we're going to hear a lot of that from the people who are grinding axes, but the reality is the majority are going to think that Obama just knocked it out of the park. I don't think Clinton will find anything here that she will be able to use against him. McCain won't touch it, but Republican operatives (doesn't that just sound sleazy and scary? "Republican operatives" makes you think of Watergate, Karl Rove, Rush, Hannity, Coulter...) will keep pounding his church.

But, hey, what do I know? I'm so outside of politics that I don't even want to be part of a libertarian movement.

[stephen the goldberger]

Where's the mention of the most amazing part of Obama's speech, the fact that he pointed a finger at welfare for ruining many black people's lives?

I mean, this is the greatest speech I've ever seen/read from a politician in my relatively short lifetime (23 years). The ultimate irony: Obama really needed something like this wright moment because his campaign was losing steam and becoming uninteresting.

[joe]

They have to come up with something, Cesar.

Barack Obama might have won the presidency today. They can't just keep quiet, they need to try to change the direction of the discussion.

But they can't keep hammering on "racist, black radical Obama" after that speech. Nor, btw, is the HUSSEIN email going to accomplish much anymore.

Watching Barack Obama is like watching Jacoby Ellsbury. It's like he's playing a different game than everyone else.

[joe]

Barack Obama can score from second on a passed ball. 🙂

[Gilbert Martin]

"Where's the mention of the most amazing part of Obama's speech, the fact that he pointed a finger at welfare for ruining many black people's lives?"

Did he explicity call for the elimination of all welfare programs?

If he's against welfare, why is he medical welfare and education welfare?

[Gilbert Martin]

Why is he pushing medical and education welfare that is.

[T]

the reality is the majority are going to think that Obama just knocked it out of the park

The reality is that most people don't care, didn't see it, won't read a transcript, and will get their knowledge of it second or third hand. It's sometimes hard for us political junkies to realize, but the rest of the world doesn't follow this stuff day in and day out.

[Pro Libertate]

T,

Kind of my thinking, too. But I'm not going to stop joe, who is about to tell us that this is the greatest speech since "Let There Be Light" ?

[Cesar]

T, the Superdelegates were paying attention though. I really think this might move them towards him, something that wouldn't have happened before this.

[highnumber]

Too true, T. I think they'll hear that he hit it out of the park.

[brotherben]

Fox news reports 2001 author Arthur Clarke dead at 90

[Pro LIbertate]

RIP. I really liked 2001 and Childhood's End.

[Neu Mejican]

Prolib,

Me too, and Rendezvous with Rama and The Hammer of God.

[bigbigslacker]

http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/Obama_2.htm

Can you believe this? Turns out Obama is a Muslim!!!! Oh, the dirty worm. I always thought the guy was a dirty Muslim Puerto Rican Jew.

[T]

Clarke died? The one great optimist of sci-fi is down. I guess when Bradbury goes, that generation is through. RIP.

[T]

I always thought the guy was a dirty Muslim Puerto Rican Jew.

No, no, you're thinking of Geraldo Rivera.

[joe]

Geraldo HUSSEIN Rivera?

[Neu Mejican]

joe,

That is Gerald Michael "the Moor" Rivera

[J sub D]

It's not accidental that Obama's speech today keeps generating "I agree with joe" comments.

Just as it's not accidental that economic and regulatory issues keep generating "joe, you're full of shit" comments. 😉

The only people who are concerned about this would never vote for a black democrat anyway.

[Pro Libertate]

I tell you one thing: I'd definitely vote for a black, female, Muslim libertarian.

[J sub D]

Fox news reports 2001 author Arthur Clarke dead at 90

That's the last of the big three. Damn.

[J sub D]

Geostationary satellites (e.g. your tv satellite) are in a Clarke orbit. He wrote about them in 1945.

[Neu Mejican]

J sub D,

Last of the big 3?

Ursula K. LeGuin die?

Or are you including Octavia Butler?

[Neu Mejican]

Does anyone see parallels to the Dalai Lama's current news...

Item: Dalai Lama says he will quit as leader of government in exile if protester in Tibet continue to use violence.

Item: China accuses Dalai Lama of inciting his followers to violence.

Totally different, but somehow has the same flavor of John's and TallDave's posts.

[Edward]

"I tell you one thing: I'd definitely vote for a black, female, Muslim libertarian."

Yeah, but libertarians keep coming up with crypto-racist (Ron Paul) holocaust-denying (Mike Gravel) loons to carry the banner. How about just someone with some sense?

[joe]

The only people who are concerned about this would never vote for a black democrat anyway.

I don't believe that, J sub.

I got a little freaked out by that "greatest hits" video of Reverend Wright that we've all been seeing. Me. joe. I needed Barack Obama to speak up about this, and not just to do damage control, but to deal with the issues it raised.

I would not vote for a candidate who held some of Wright's beliefs, and it is a very big deal that Obama didn't just say "I renounce all the bad stuff," but actually engaged with, explained, and critiqued Wright's ideas, and articulated a coherent and plausible philosophy in opposition to them, while also not simply pandering to the sentiments of, well, of people like me - white people freaked out by Jeremiah Wright.

It was a tall order, and he pulled it off in an impressive manner. I think that's a big deal, and I think it will be a big deal to a lot of people.

[joe]

You know, I re-read the usual suspects denouncing Obama today, and it's unavoidable: they don't want the healing and progress and understanding he was talking about today.

Their politics are about ripping the country in half along lines that give their side the slightly bigger half, just like they did i/r/t terrorism and the Iraq War in 2002-2003.

And this time, they're counting on America being at war with itself, not about foreign policy, but about race. They aren't actual racists themselves, they're even worse: they want to keep the racial divide as wide and as hostile as possible, because they think it will help them win an election.

The unity Barack Obama was talking about today is just as much of a threat to them as the unity that existed in this country immediately after 9/11, and they're going to try just as deliberately to destroy. And this time, over race.

I don't want to live in John's America, or Guy Montag's America, or TallDave's America. I want to live in Barack Obama's America.

[J sub D]

Last of the big 3?

Ursula K. LeGuin die?

Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke.

[Elemenope]

Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke.

Those are the three that came to my mind as well, though I would put in a strong argument for P.K. Dick or LeGuin instead of Clarke.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I've been busy lately, but caught up on the Obama stuff.

I think its over for him. His hope was to somehow keep the angry black man image as far away as possible, and there it is, over and over all over the place, and really really crazy angry black man, and even though it is not him, it's connected to him every time it is played.

It's over. I had become convinced, through some of the data, that Obama might turn on more people than he would, inevitably turn off. I think that's wrong now.

I said at the beginning that Hillary and Obama were two of the worst candidates imaginable, that the Democrats were mad-men and women for picking those two, that they must not really want the White House or think its a gimme, and it looks like I was right. McCain's replacement for Stevens and or Ginsuburg is going to make the Rehnquist court look like it was run by the ACLU...

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I always found Heinlen and Asimov to be very, very dry. I prefered Bradbury and P.K. Dick any day of the weak for shear imaginative and philosophical story telling.

[Neu Mejican]

JsubD,

I knew, I knew.

I just don't agree that Heinlein is in the same league as Asimov & Clark.

The writers with automatic membership in the League of Extraordinary Science Fiction Writers, for me, would be Asimov, Bradbury, Butler, Clark, Delaney, Dick...

I'll stop before I get to Zelazny, but I don't think I would have any entries under H besides Haldeman...

[Cesar]

MNG did you watch the speech?

[Neu Mejican]

MNG,

any day of the weak

That is the best emo band name ever.

[Neu Mejican]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrp-v2tHaDo

The full speech.

[joe]

You don't even have to try to talk him into it.

Just roll tape.

[alan]

I don't want to live in John's America, or Guy Montag's America, or TallDave's America. I want to live in Barack Obama's America.

Personally, I would prefer a world without leaders. Where the men we elect wear the green eyeshades of the accountant and understand their roll as a minimum one where the idea they could aspire others would be an absurdity. For every leader who was a positive prescense in this world there have been ten who have inspired their followers to hatred, wrath, dependence and war.

A leaderless world where men of the cloth today spoke as coolly and rationally as Averroes and Aquinas, and those in the pews did not expect the crass rhetoric and loud rantings of the mentally challenged.

The notion we can be lead to the promised land is primitive and it is something we can do without.

[Gilbert Martin]

"they don't want the healing and progress and understanding he was talking about today."

Translation:

People who refuse to buy into notion that leftist policies and ideas such as socialized medicine have anything to do with "healing, progress and understanding".

[Gilbert Martin]

"I want to live in Barack Obama's America."

I'd rather live in an America where the government actually abides by the Constitution.

As James Madison said:

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."

One sentence from Madison that is of infinitely more wisdom than the sum total of everything that Barak Obama has ever said in his entire life.

[NAL]

I just got a chance to watch the speech (thanks to Neu Mejican for posting the link) and it was fantastic. Obama's speaking ability is second to none.

However, I have to agree with Gilbert Martin that probably most of his solutions for "bringing us together" will involve socialist policies.

[Pablo Escobar]

Thanks for nothing Reason and the cato institute.

[wayne]

"Why can't this be a thread about how Charles Murray is or isn't a racist. "

Good point NM. Charles Murray is not a racist.

[wayne]

On Obama:

The speech was brilliant. He is charismatic. His voice is soothing and pleasant. He is a likeable guy. He is the anti-Hillary.

When the liberal solution to the class advantage enjoyed by rich people changes from: "we plan to exclude poor white kids from college" to "we plan to offer a leg-up to poor kids", then liberals will have a legitimate platform and my support.

I heard nothing from Obama that addresses the "how", hence I presume his solutions will be more of the same: encouraging universities to practice racism, encouraging employers to practice racism, encouraging racist considerations to predominate when letting contracts with the government.

[Mad Max]

"Ever read Jeremiah?

"If Jeremiah Wright is anti-American, then O.G. Jeremiah was an anti-semite."

Uh, joe, you *are* aware that Sen. Obama has repudiated Rev. Wright's anti-American statements in the strongest terms, comparing those statements to racist remarks by the Senator's white grandmother?

So, if Rev. Wright is right, then Sen Obama would be wrong.

[joe]

Translation:

People who refuse to buy into notion that leftist policies...

See? They're going to keep hammering on racial divisiveness to advance conservative politics.

Gil admits openly.

[Fluffy]

People who refuse to buy into notion that leftist policies and ideas such as socialized medicine have anything to do with "healing, progress and understanding".

Actually, this is a perfectly valid reason to oppose Obama.

Unless you're supporting McCain, from whom the stench of the big government looter rises just as sharply as it does from Obama. Maybe more, since he continually trumpets his greater "experience" at the matter.

What's not really cool is to sincerely oppose Obama because of his likely expansion of government, but to put on a lying air of faux outrage about his pastor's comments as your tactic for opposing him.

Anyone who is willing to pretend to believe the absurd ["Obama is a black supremacist!"] because they do not think the public will support their real reasons for opposing Obama ["Obama will expand government!" or "Obama will end an unpopular war that I am desperate to see continue!"] is a dishonest douchebag.

[nueces]

Joe is is such a shameless shill: "Follow Obama or else you're being racially divisive!"

[Gilbert Martin]

Don't worry about joe.

He's merely a liberal.

It's physically impossible for him to be an authority on anything.

[nueces]

I guess a lot of white people, like joe, feel they need Obama to absolve them of their racism, to wash them clean in a kind of baptism.

[joe]

Openly admitting that it's about hatin' the liberals.

Thanks for assist, fellas.

[Gilbert Martin]

"I guess a lot of white people, like joe, feel they need Obama to absolve them of their racism, to wash them clean in a kind of baptism."

Well when it comes to joe in particular, it's more about crowing about "victories" that exist nowhere but in his own head.

LOL

[joe]

Shopworn anti-liberal rhetoric.

That's all this ever was.

[NAL]

I didn't think he could do it, but Obama managed to turn what I thought was a campaign killer ("Stick a fork in him. He's done!" were my exact words), into an asset.
The man is a maestro with words.

[Neu Mejican]

Good point NM. Charles Murray is not a racist.

Charles Murray would agree.

He doesn't see his work as racist in any way, even though the scientific premise he attempts to prove is all about how races are fundamentally different in immutable ways that explain their success in the world.

He also believes that racial categories are genetically coherent groupings with a biological basis (rather than socially constructed groupings with cultural basis).

And he uses less than rigorous science to prove that point, science with clear evidence of confirmation bias.

Not racists at all.

Nope.

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