Obama Better Than Clinton on Guns?

Tim Cavanaugh goes spelunking through the congressional record, and finds a clarifying up-or-down moment.

Jacob Sullum took a more skeptical view of Obama's 2nd Amendment views earlier this week.

Comments

[J sub D]

This was obviously a false flag vote. Obama knew he was going to run for president, figured he'd need 2nd Amendment supporters to win in November so voted against his beliefs to disguise the fact that he's a gun-grabbing leftist. Knowing that the amendment would pass, with or without his vote, he made the cynical, calculated, machiavellian decision to vote yea. Any experienced observer of politics can see this as nothing but a self-serving vote, part oif a well contrived plan to advance Obama's electability in an egomaniacal lust for power.

Yeah, that's all nonsense, but somebody, somewhere, will make that argument. Hillary's vote should rightly be held against her.

[galthran]

McCain voted how?

[David E. Gallaher]

galthran,
McCain should choose Billary for his running mate. They are old farts of a feather. I'd like to see how McCain voted too.

It is no surprise to most of us, but Billary is about as opposite as an Earthling could be from Reasoidism. She's beyond Bizarro Reasonoid.

[KD]

Obama voted to not allow confiscation of guns as long as it was not otherwise prohibited...? Wow what a liberty loving position. Please raise your hand if that is what you think the 2nd is about.

When grasping at straws, I thought the idea was to have something with at least a minimum of substance in hand.

In the big picture re the 2nd and Obama, this particular vote may only be marginally more helpful than a handful of powder smoke... or congressional efficacy... but I repeat myself.

However, (another straw?) one of the comments on the LA Times site had this to say:(click on clarifying up-or-down moment link above)

Obama has actually taught constitutional law and has stated that the 2nd Amendment applys to individuals, not just militias.

Posted by: Michael Porter | March 01, 2008 at 05:56 AM

And, McCain voted the same as Obama "yea".

[Cesar]

Is Stalin better than Mao on killing political opponents?

[Chris Potter]

Eating 10 Big Macs every day is better for your cholesterol level than eating 10 Double Quarter Pounders every day.

ie, what Cesar said.

[Ali]

Chris-

Take the options you're given and be thankful. Please, be a good and obedient citizen. Please.

[pigwiggle]

After the recent NIU shooting, Obama was quoted as saying the 2nd amendment was an *individual* right. I'm not sure of the context, but given the rawness of the recent event is seems fairly forward. Or maybe not - but there it is.

[Eryk Boston]

Wow, if you think we have nuts posting on this site, read a few of the ones on that site.

[Geotpf]

There will be a deciding moment, gun control-wise, in Obama's presidential term. (I'm basically assuming Obama wins here and the Democrats gain seats in both the House and Senate.)

The assault weapons ban will be passed again by the Democratic House and Senate. The margin will be filibuster-proof in the Senate but not veto-proof in either house of Congress.

I think Obama will take Feingold's lead and veto it. Now, I have no proof of this, but I hope I'm right. That will shut up the NRA types and help him win re-election, so it's the right thing to do politically, and since the assault weapons ban is so incredibily stupid, it's obviously the right policy decision as well.

We shall see.

[edna]

"reply hazy, try again"

[Chris Potter]

pigwiggle,

He said it was an individual right subject to "reasonable" restrictions. I agree, in principle, but I'm sure the Brady Campaign nutjobs would be happy with that statement as well, so long as they get to define "reasonable".

[Ali]

edna- huh?

[Chris Potter]

Ali,

As you are new to American schlocky stuff, here is a link to the answer you seek.

[shecky]

Every President will be in favor of "reasonable" gun control. However, I don't see a Clinton-style assault weapons ban being viable again, barring any relevant acts of terror occurring during the interim.

OK, so Obama comes out slightly ahead of Hillary on guns. Good on him. I guess some is better than none.

[Ali]

Chris- Aha, thanks.

[Ted]

I don't get it, how does this post help Welch schlock more books?

[edna]

ali, sorry, i was just trying to clumsily say that trying to parse this issue with these two candidates in the way tim (and others) are trying to is pointless.

each is going to do about the same thing once they reach the white house, and that will *not* be in the direction of citizens' rights. trying to pin down specifics before the election is merely a way to fill column inches, not actual useful and informative observation and analysis.

[Andrew]

He said it was an individual right subject to "reasonable" restrictions.

Unfortunately, he supports the complete handgun ban in D.C. and other extreme local restrictions as "reasonable."

[Ali]

edna- Yeah, I agree. I think part of it is that once people are in charge, they realize how many constraints and how difficult it is to get through with their promises. Here I am assuming that (a) politicians are consciously sincere when they make campaign promises, and (b) they assume that we are not idiots. Usually both, but at least one, seem not to be the case.

[edna]

Here I am assuming that (a) politicians are consciously sincere when they make campaign promises, and (b) they assume that we are not idiots.

hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! you just *slay* me!!!!!

[Chris Baker]

Hillarious and O-bomb-a both get F ratings from Gun Owners of America. I think the real purpose of this debate is to distract attention from the fact that John McCain also gets a big F from GOA. REASON is definitely promoting the neo-con agenda now.

[sine]

Tim, you know if you come back to blogging at Hit and Run you could have written that same post, except you wouldn't have had to throw in that disclaimer about an "old tension here between individual rights and the need to establish (by force) police supremacy..." at the end.

[Chris Potter]

And Chris Baker gets an A+ from the Non Sequitur Association for that last comment...

Seriously, any criticism of HRC and BO = promoting McCain?

[Cesar]

Seriously, any criticism of HRC and BO = promoting McCain?

Chris, you should expect more of that non-logic as election day nears.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Hey Cesar, leave Chris alone! We mathematicians have to stick together.

And once again, a famous Jack Handey quote:

"and also I'm drunk."

I'm going to the anti-depressant thread - hopefully they'll have some magic e-pills that will undo the not gettin' laid. See y'all later.

PS: Dondero, I wouldn't be able to communicate with such raw honesty, even while drunk, if I posted my handle, my credit card information, and my loved ones' addresses and vulnerabilities as you'd like to see.

[Chris Potter]

Well, I'm assuming that particular non-logic is coming from the Paulinista* perspective, so I don't know how it's going to change as an election not involving Dr Paul approaches.

* By this I mean not people like myself who merely donated, phonebanked, and voted for Ron Paul, but the personality cultists who think that he can do no wrong and that he would have won the nomination had it not been for the Vast Cosmotarian Conspiracy.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

"handle"="real name"

[Chris Potter]

Meh, I don't mind getting ribbed once in a while.

We mathematicians can take comfort in the fact that no matter what happens to our pathetic physical selves, we can rest assured that Stokes' Theorem will always be true.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Oh yeah, dude, I kept a class over for almost ten minutes the last day before spring break (i.e yesterday) because I got excited about the proof of the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic.

I mean, without that, my students can't factor shit.

[Chris Potter]

Ha ha ha!

You can't factor with the FToA, it's an existence theorem, not a construction theorem. Very funny!

(It's too bad there's no "nerdy math laugh" emoticon)

[Cesar]

I can barely do simple multiplication tables. But I can always plug it into a calculator.

Good luck getting a machine to tell you about the geopolitical implications of the Second Balkan War.

[Cesar]

I'm kidding, of course, in the above post. I respect hard science people. Especially during tax season.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Chris,
Fair enough. My students can't factor shit regardless. But they don't know whether it's even possible until I take a full hour to prove the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic for them. Afterward I told them that next time they'd have to let me know I was going over. One of them said they were getting ten free minutes of math. Maybe just a joke, but pretty flattering nonetheless.

Cesar,
You wouldn't respect this hard science guy (inaccurate for a mathematician but close enough, I guess) if you knew how much money I'd wasted on strippers in my life.

[ghost of Fourier]

I can barely do simple multiplication tables. But I can always plug it into a calculator.

Good luck getting a machine to tell you about the geopolitical implications of the Second Balkan War.

I'm kidding, of course, in the above post. I respect hard science people. Especially during tax season.

Well, that sounds like a back-handed (if not entirely misunderstood) compliment if I've ever heard one. There is a big difference between calculating and mathematics. Yes anyone can punch numbers into a calculator, but that's about as far from mathematics as scanning prices at the checkout counter is from economics. A machine is no more capable of doing actual mathematics than it is capable of doing history.

[Cesar]

A machine is no more capable of doing actual mathematics than it is capable of doing history.

I realize that fully. I was being snarky.

[Chris Potter]

NERD FIGHT!!!! Amazingly, Star Trek vs. Star Wars hasn't come up yet.

Seriously, though, a big difference, Cesar, is that if you plug 6x9 into a calculator, you always get the correct answer. Asking a political historian about the Second Balkan War carries no guarantee that his or her answer will even agree with that of another political historian, much less that it will be right.

[alan]

You wouldn't respect this hard science guy (inaccurate for a mathematician but close enough, I guess) if you knew how much money I'd wasted on strippers in my life.

It is possible to waste money on strippers, but not time. But still when you consider the monetary exchange of dealing with the stripper as putting your money up front as opposed to the finances that go into a relationship with a girlfriend or spouse as a long term loan at a steep rate of interest where the thing that is purchased reduces a slight amount in value with each use (remember Vince Vaughn in Old School, 'One pussy for the rest of your life'), the stripper in comparison is a bargain.

[rm2muv]

Spent most of my money on strippers, booze and gambling - the rest I just wasted.

More on point. Hey, Barak's from Chicago. Gotta believe in guns, man.

[robc]

Seriously, though, a big difference, Cesar, is that if you plug 6x9 into a calculator, you always get the correct answer.

42?

Only awake and posting right now because "another isolated incident" is occurring in my front yard right now and the sirens woke me up and the flashing lights in the bedroom windows kept me awake.

[edna]

hey robc, make sure you aim for the head when they come busting through your door.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

robc:

Seriously, though, a big difference, Cesar, is that if you plug 6x9 into a calculator, you always get the correct answer.

42?

No, that's not a calculator, that's a bag of scrabble tiles.

Chris, there's your nerd fight, right there.

[robc]

edna,

I figured they werent coming into my place since they used the sirens and lights to make sure I was awake enough to target properly.

My street intersects a main highway, looks like some dudes being chased decided to use my street to shake the cops. Choosing the street with 3 speed bumps in 2 blocks was probably a bad idea. Not sure why they pulled into my yard to give up though. About 3 EST they finally towed away the car and left.

[robc]

Someone,

there's your nerd fight, right there.

I was fed a straight line I couldnt pass up.

[Warty]

A machine is no more capable of doing actual mathematics than it is capable of doing history.

I dunno, I'm becoming more and more convinced that we're just machines made of meat. Up yours, dualists.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Understood. It was one of my favorite parts of the books, too.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Or maybe in some cases, machines made of warts.

[KD]

Sort of back to topic - anybody seen this: Student group pushes for right to carry concealed weapons on campus

[Click \'n\' Learn]

Great job by Cavanaugh and the LAT! I only covered this five+ weeks ago, and it usually takes the LAT a few years (if ever) to catch up.

Congrats & Kudos!

[J sub D]

I dunno, I'm becoming more and more convinced that we're just machines made of meat. Up yours, dualists.

Warty, your post brought a short story by Terry Bisson to mind. Surprise, it is online in it's entirety. Go here, it's a short short.

[J sub D]

Yeah, I know about the incorrect apostrophe.

[Robert]

Hey, I've actually seen The Crazies, lent to me by a libertarian who really appreciated it.

[Eddy]

42?

What was the question again?

[Russ 2000]

The real news here is that Obama actually voted on something.

[Michael Ejercito]

Unfortunately, he supports the complete handgun ban in D.C. and other extreme local restrictions as "reasonable."

I wonder if he would view Chicago's gun control laws as reasonable.

In Chicago, one must register handguns, and registration forms are not available to the public. They are available to rich white people with connections to the Daley junta.

A white person caught with an unregistered handgun gets a warning..and the gun back. a black person caught with an unregistered handgun goes to jail.

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