Militarization of Police

One More From Chesapeake

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In his interview with the Virginian-Pilot, Ryan Frederick said he was into gardening and landscaping, and that one reason he had the grow lamps is that he was learning how to grow young Japanese Maple trees.

In our comments section, "Kap" points out that the leaves of Japanese Maples look a lot like marijuana leaves. To an untrained eye, one wonders if a very young Japanese Maple (the kind that would require a grow lamp) might resemble a marijuana plant.

Could the informant have spotted the young trees in Frederick's garage, then mistakenly reported them to the police as marijuana plants, triggering the raid?

UPDATE:  I just tipped of a Virginian-Pilot reporter on the Japanese Maple leaves and the possibility that the informant was responsible for the earlier break-in at Frederick's home, given the timing of the break-in and the information contained in the search warrant that the informant had been in the home 72 hours prior to the raid.

He told a couple of interesting things that didn't appear in the paper's interview with Frederick.  First, Frederick told the reporter that as the police were taking him out of the house in handcuffs, he told them he was sorry, and that he was scared because his house had been burglarized earlier in the week.  According to the reporter, Frederick says the police told him they not only knew about the burglary, they knew who had done it.  Neither the reporter nor Frederick made the connection that the person who broke in could well also be the informant.

I'm starting to think now that that's the case.  Frederick also told the reporter he rarely has visitors, and couldn't think of anyone who had been in his home that week.  

As for the plants, the reporter confirmed that Frederick did actually own young Japanese Maple trees, in addition to tomatoes (which have also in the past been mistaken for marijuana, leading to drug raids) and several other plants.  The guy was a gardening hobbyist.

Frederick also believes the cops found about three joints in his home.

I would be very suspicious if the police olice were to suddenly announce, a week later, that they did indeed find marijuana plants in Frederick's garage, too.

Here are a few questions I have for Chesapeake PD:

• Who was the informant?  Under what circumstances did he hand over this information?  Has he assisted the police in other cases?  

•  Did police tell Frederick at the scene that they know who broke into his home three days before the raid?  Do they know?  If so, was it the same person who tipped them off?

•  If so, did he break in to Frederick's home with instruction from the police, or on his own accord?

•  How much marijuana was found in the home?  Could we get a definitive yes or no on whether marijuana plants were found, as indicated would be found in the search warrant?

• What sort of police work was done to coroborrate the informant's tip before conducting the raid?

• If there were no marijuana plants found in the home, did police find Japanese Maple plants?  Tomato plants?  Other evidence that Frederick was a gardening enthusiast, as he says?

NEXT: Stimulant or Hallucinogen?

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  1. and why wasn’t the warrant limited to the garage if that is where this grow operation was supposedly happening?

  2. Clicked on the photo, gotta say WOW!

  3. If that’s what happened, Radley, then it means that they conducted a violent raid that got somebody killed without doing any other investigation whatsoever, such as a stakeout, checking with local stores that supply the lights, etc.

    Which doesn’t surprise me at all. In fact, it is my belief that since officers find these raids exciting and fun, they will do it for any seemingly slightly valid reason that crosses their desk.

    Which–frighteningly–can include a moron of an informer thinking they saw some weed. What next? Somebody sees my SKS and thinks it violates Connecticut’s assault weapons rules, so they call the cops and they raid my house without checking that everything’s legal?

  4. Interesting.

    If I ever decide to farm pot, before I buy any grow equipment, I will make sure to buy some of that Japanese maple first. Excellent cover.

  5. If I ever decide to farm pot, before I buy any grow equipment, I will make sure to buy some of that Japanese maple first. Excellent cover.

    Jan. 28, 2008: ONDCP head John Waters calls for a nationwide ban and immediate confiscation of all Japanese maple plants.

    Jan. 29: Sen. John McCain introduces a bill to declare war on Japan.

  6. I used to work for a landscaper. Japanese Maples were an endless source of amusement for us stoners.

  7. Could the informant have spotted the young trees in Frederick’s garage, then mistakenly reported them to the police as marijuana plants, triggering the raid?

    Who cares? That is pussy-footing around the real issue, which is that the dude should be able to grow marijuana if he damn well wants to.

  8. Once the informant realizes how closely oregano resembles pot, no pizza place in Virginia will be safe.

  9. Could the informant have spotted the young trees in Frederick’s garage, then mistakenly reported them to the police as marijuana plants, triggering the raid?

    Doesn’t matter. Got the fucker now.

  10. Which–frighteningly–can include a moron of an informer thinking they saw some weed.

    That’s why, when I move into a new neighborhood, I make sure to poison all the nebby old ladies…

  11. Anonymo, isn’t that much the reason it is illegal to grow hemp in the US?

  12. That’s why, when I move into a new neighborhood, I make sure to poison all the nebby old ladies…

    A twis on “Arsenic And Old Lace”? Classy.

  13. And I didn’t buy that cultivar mainly because I wanted something that clearly was red, unlike some other species.

    To clarify my comment in the other thread, I was being sarcastic; I actually did buy a red maple specifically because I was worried about this happening, as I live in downtown Houston in a neighborhood with a lot of artists/weirdos/drugheads and I sleep with a gun within reach.

    At the time I was suspecting myself of overreacting and being guilty of anti-libertarian cowardice.

    Amazing. And sad.

  14. how closely oregano resembles pot,

    Quit smoking ditch weed, man.

  15. Don’t laugh, Hershey’s pulled Ice Breaker Pacs because they supposedly looked like street drugs. To a politician, I’d imagine outlawing the Japanese Maple isn’t out of the question.

  16. And Radley, it wouldn’t take a “very young” Japanese maple, many of the garden varieties are bred as “dwarf” varieties that don’t grow more than 5′ tall even when they are decades old.

  17. innominate — I have read and heard that hemp was outlawed at the behest of the cotton companies. Some guy had just invented a streamlined process for harvesting hemp that made it hugely inefficient to pick cotton. And they didn’t want the competition. But that could all be BS.

  18. (off topic) koi are illegal in most of Australia. This month’s “Koi Nations” magazine has an article on folks down under with illegal (and hidden from the sky) koi ponds. Complete with silhouette photos of the interviewees.

  19. Who wants to bet that the informant is a burglar who has committed multiple burglaries in the area, was caught, and during interrogation said, “Hey, if you give me a deal I can hand you this major grower whose house I broke into a few days ago…”

    And the cops jumped at it.

  20. And the cops jumped at it.

    And somebody is dead. Frederick is just so very, very lucky that he isn’t.

  21. Fluffy, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if your scenario is exactly what happened.

    But, since Frederick is white, I bet joe doesn’t give a fuck if he gets the chair.

    (did I say that? shame on me.)

  22. Fluffy…u cracked the case

  23. According to the reporter, Frederick says the police told him they not only knew about the burglary, they knew who had done it. Neither the reporter nor Frederick made the connection that the person who broke in could well also be the informant.

    Lessee: Guy breaks into someone’s house, gets caught on something else, says to cops “If you let me off, I’ll tell you where there’s a grow-op”, cops make the deal, cops raid the house ….

    This just gets more depressing all the time.

    J***s H. Murphy F*****g C****t.

  24. I see the updates. When I first saw the story I immediately wondered if it would be unreasonable to suspect that the informant was actually the person who broke into the place three days earlier. I dismissed the idea as far-fetched. Funny that it might not be after all.

  25. Who wants to bet . . .

    My thought exactly. Although I can’t rule out the idea that the cops put him up to breaking into this guy’s house, but they would only do that if they were already suspicious of him for something, and it doesn’t sound like they were (no nattering on about a long-term investigation. . .).

    I’m wondering, though, if there’s any kind of murder/manslaughter charge for the informant. He negligently provided information that led to the death of a cop, after all.

  26. If you think oregano looks like pot, you need a new dealer. I recommend the guy I get all my pot from. His name is John Walters and he lives near DC. I also hear he’s got a lot of guns and a kiddie porn operation in the basement.
    Actually, I’m feeling guilty about all of that. Maybe I should tip off the cops…

  27. Nick

    Very unfair to joe.

    He may not agree with us on taxation and property issues, but he’s always been on our side on drug and civil liberties issues.

  28. Aresen my man, there is no way – no fucking way – you’re going to be able to keep to your ‘no online profanity’ resolution. I give it another two weeks, tops.

  29. Disgruntled | January 25, 2008, 4:16pm | #

    If you think oregano looks like pot, you need a new dealer. I recommend the guy I get all my pot from. His name is John Walters and he lives near DC. I also hear he’s got a lot of guns and a kiddie porn operation in the basement.
    Actually, I’m feeling guilty about all of that. Maybe I should tip off the cops…

    I like the way your Disgruntled mind works.

  30. Here are a few questions I have for Chesapeake PD:

    I said it on the other thread, but I think the single most important question for the police is:

    If you had burst in and Ryan Frederick had been pointing a gun at your men, trying to evaluate whether they were indeed police, would you shoot him before he shot you?

  31. Wow. If Fluffy’s scenario is what happened this thing is pretty depraved. A man lost his life because a criminal mistakenly identified drugs in one of his victims houses.

  32. peachy

    I only censor the language of my posts when I’m cyberslacking at work.

  33. When I first saw the story I immediately wondered if it would be unreasonable to suspect that the informant was actually the person who broke into the place three days earlier. I dismissed the idea as far-fetched.

    Put me on that list, as well. I started thinking along those lines in the very beginning, and scolded myself for being a paranoid ninny.

  34. Dave W-Probably. The situation was inherently dangerous to all parties. Given that, maybe the frequent use of no-knock raids should be re-evaluated. Or maybe even the drug war, especially as applied to pot.

    Seems I’ve heard folks around here say similar things.

  35. A man lost his life because a criminal mistakenly identified drugs in one of his victims houses.

    The longer they don’t say who the informant was, the more it looks like that is what happened.

  36. Wow. If Fluffy’s scenario is what happened this thing is pretty depraved. A man lost his life because a criminal mistakenly identified drugs in one of his victims houses.

    It’s worse than that (if true): a man is dead because the cops thought it was more important to stop someone from growing a plant than to put away a thief.

    Ponder that one for a minute.

  37. Note, there was breaking and entering, but no theft, and it occured while Frederick was out of the house. Doesn’t sound like a regular burgular.

    I wonder if this “burglar” is actually someone who does this for the police, as a way of establishing probable cause for a warrant.

    If so, the whole basis of the warrant could be found invalid. Anyway, there is whole lot of ‘splaining to do.

  38. Dave W-Probably.

    well, yeah, we all know they would have shot him, but I think the important part is to either make the police say it, or make them evade the question with a transparent lie.

  39. “As for the plants, the reporter confirmed that Frederick did actually own young Japanese Maple trees, in addition to tomatoes (which have also in the past been mistaken for marijuana, leading to drug raids) and several other plants.”

    I once saw a policeman rummage through a tomato garden in someone’s back yard.

  40. I’m a bit of an amateur botanist myself. I grow bonsai and i have two japanese maple bonsai, 4 or 5 years old. I spend a lot of energy preparing my soil and fertilizers.(i mix my soil from several different components and sift each to control particle size) last year i was pulled over for a minor traffic violation right after a trip to the nursery. The cop wanted to search me and my vehicle because i had some pots and soil. He even called backup.

  41. That Virginian Pilot interview is just fucking awful. What a stupid situation, something like this should never have happened.

  42. How did that turn out, Pinette?

  43. Guy in North Braddock, PA is suing the cops who broke into his apartment and Tasered him.
    They claimed they were responding to a silent alarm. Guy claims they Tasered him twice more even after he showed ID proving he lived there.

  44. I once saw a policeman rummage through a tomato garden in someone’s back yard.

    It’s pretty amazing that cops, who generally have little to no education, are taken seriously in court when they talk about seeing various plants or drugs. I can confuse oxycontin with baby aspirin if I’m not careful, and I know what I’m doing.

  45. I refused to let them search my car for close to an hour. Then they let me go with a ticket for expired registration and a damn seatbelt ticket which i am still paying off.

  46. I’m beginning the think the Aerogarden I got for Xmas might not have been the best gift. Especially since I have ziploc bags, catnip, ammonia, cold medicine, charcoal, a tobacco pipe and who knows what else lying around the place.

  47. I’m wondering, though, if there’s any kind of murder/manslaughter charge for the informant. He negligently provided information that led to the death of a cop, after all.

    If there’s any justice in the world there would be.

    And heads need to roll at the police department.

    Ron Bailey keeps posting life-extension stories and then Radley posts this stuff that makes me wonder if I’d want to live an extended life in a world where this shit happens.

  48. Before we get all worked up about this, keep in mind, he was a criminal, he was found with some joints, which is currently illegal. Also, he killed a cop, which, regardless of the circumstances, is probably a strict liability crime.

  49. Does it really matter if he was growing pot or not?

    Either way the dude is fucked. He shot a cop while the cop was busting into his house. I don’t think Cory Maye was growing dope either and he was still convicted.

  50. Dan T. appears to be back.

  51. Fred,
    who the hell isn’t a criminal? With the government’s involvement in every small aspect of american life, it’s pretty much impossible not to be a criminal. Hell, our last few presidents have admitted to smoking pot.

    “regardless of the circumstances”
    Bullshit. self defense is self defense.

  52. I have a beautiful, six-foot tall Japanese maple on my front lawn, and they can take it away from me when they pry it out of my cold fingers (it’s 11 @#$&&!! degrees here right now).

  53. It’s pretty amazing that cops, who generally have little to no education, are taken seriously in court when they talk about seeing various plants or drugs.

    What do you mean by “little or no education”. Many of Motowns finest possess a High School diploma from Detroit Public Schools. Therefore you have to assume that many are functionally literate.

  54. Before we get all worked up about this, keep in mind, he was a criminal, he was found with some joints, which is currently illegal. Also, he killed a cop, which, regardless of the circumstances, is probably a strict liability crime.

    Thanks Fred, we need more people like you to remind us what a truly great nation this is becoming. I’m sure glad we still have the death penalty to deter these hardened criminal types from defending their “private” property.

  55. This case is so everything.
    Innocent victim
    Warrant issued solely on the basis of unnamed informant.
    No knock raid.
    Dead cop.
    Frame up/cover up after the fact.

    Keep pushing Radley. This case puts the lie to the drug war tactics best.

  56. J sub D,
    after spending some time over at those policelink forums, i have to say, it seems most of them operate at grade school level.

  57. What do you mean by “little or no education”. Many of Motowns finest possess a High School diploma from Detroit Public Schools. Therefore you have to assume that many are functionally literate.

    Or at least know what pot looks like.

  58. I have a beautiful, six-foot tall Japanese maple on my front lawn, and they can take it away from me when they pry it out of my cold fingers (it’s 11 @#$&&!! degrees here right now).

    My brother lost two Japanese maples during an unusually nasty cold spell (-15 degrees). If it gets much colder you should take precautions. Those things are valuable.

  59. What do you mean by “little or no education”. Many of Motowns finest possess a High School diploma from Detroit Public Schools.

    OK. Make it just “no edukashun”.

  60. Did police tell Frederick at the scene that they know who broke into his home three days before the raid? Do they know? If so, was it the same person who tipped them off?

    The questions on my mind are: If they know, how do they know? And has he been arrested? If not, why not? If so, why didn’t they tell Frederick “we got the guy who broke into your house”.

    This whole thing stinks. What stinks most is that the whole thing looks to be SOP for the police. Except the part about the dead cop.

    I wonder, if he hadn’t shot a cop, thus bringing media attention, would he have been routinely framed and convicted?

  61. Pinette,

    The thing that occurred to me after spending time in the policelink forums, is that the cops seem to blame civilians for the fact that they have no credibility with civilians when incidents like this happen. No one here believes the cops have told the whole story in this case (or are about to do so), and somehow the fact that we don’t believe them is our fault.

  62. As has been said many times, this seems to be the most dangerous way to do a raid. I’m surprised that more cops don’t speak out against those who are sending them to do a raid in the most dangerous way possible.

  63. I know you’re probably funning us, Fred but,

    Also, he killed a cop, which, regardless of the circumstances, is probably a strict liability crime.

    is simply not true.

    There have been a number of cases of defendents being aquitted in such cases. Depending on the defendant jurors can be quite sympathetic.

  64. Dr. T, I don’t think the cops have a problem with the raids at all. For non-SWAT cops it is exciting, and for SWAT cops it’s a chance to a) do what they train for (which everyone naturally wants to do) and b) justify their budget and existence.

    I seriously doubt that pressure to stop these will come from cops.

  65. smokeyJoe,
    true story. The attitude over there is that it is preposterous to suggest a cop may be lying. In fact, I was locked out and had my profile suspended specifically for suggesting that a cop may be lying. And i didn’t directly call him a liar, i just stated that i didn’t believe him.

  66. The thing that occurred to me after spending time in the policelink forums, is that the cops seem to blame civilians for the fact that they have no credibility with civilians when incidents like this happen.

    LEOs –
    If large numbers of intelligent informed people think that you as a group are not to be trusted, maybe you should ask yourself why that is.

    Pet peeve – Unless they’re MPs, cops are civilians, just like the rest of us.

  67. Pet peeve – Unless they’re MPs, cops are civilians, just like the rest of us.

    Actually I think it is more than a pet peeve. The police see themselves as seperate from “civilians” how long before different becomes better/superior/preferred? This kind of thinking is something that should be discouraged in police departments since it can lead to an us vs. them mentality which is what can lead to us “civilians” not liking/trusting the cops.

  68. thoreau

    It’s just that memories are short.

    Back in the late 80s/early 90s the was a rash of raids gone wrong in central Florida.

    The combination of innocent citizens getting killed, a cop getting shot and a number of home invasions where the perps posed a cops to gain entry seemed to lead to a rethinking and restrategising for, oh, about a month and a half. Then it was back to normal.

    Actually, I’m kidding. For about a year or so it really seemed like some uncharacteristically sensible talk was coming out of central Florida police agencies. But like I say memories are short.

    And, J sub D. that “civilian” thing is a pet peeve of mine as well.

    Pinette, I know a few defense attorneys, and they all say that cops are notorious for giving false testimony, either as a result of error or out and out perjury. And they give example after example of blatant cases.

  69. I think his pet peeve was the use of the word ‘civilians’

  70. This kind of thinking is something that should be discouraged in police departments since it can lead to an us vs. them mentality which is what can lead to us “civilians” not liking/trusting the cops.

    Well, that’s already happened, Steve. You’re a little late. In my observations of my fellow “citizens”, cop-hate is more widespread than I have ever seen in my life.

  71. I just read the comments on the Virginian-Pilot page. HOLY FUCK. What a bunch of Red White n Blue douche bags. I can’t believe how many people are still beating the “He was growing pot, he knew he was shooting at cops, the cops can do no wrong Rah rah” drum.

  72. I have not had very good experiences with the police. I always feel like they talk to me with some “I could crush you and nobody would accuse me of wrongdoing” vibe… and yes, that goes for BEFORE I started reading reason or other libertarian literature too.

  73. Warren –
    Being a major naval outlet, I wager that people in Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Chesapeak/Hampton Roads are more prone to obeying authority than your average american.

  74. “Frederick says one reason he was frightened was that three days prior to the shooting, someone had broken into his house, rummaged through his belongings, but didn’t take anything. The search warrant says that the confidential informant was in Frederick’s home within 72 hours of the raid. Could it be that the informant was the one who broke into Frederick’s house?”
    This reminded me of “The Diary of Anne Frank”. The Franks were sent to the concentration camps because a burglar was able to turn them over to the Gestapo in exchange for his freedom.

  75. Re: police integrity and propensity to lie.
    this is straight out of the PL forums.

    “I know. I figured someone was going to ask it so I did. As my old LT. once said ” it is not what you do, but how you said you did it.”

    that was said by a cop in a very interesting thread found here:
    http://www.policelink.com/discussions/32/topics/7763

    I’m ‘Pine’ on that forum by the way.

  76. “If I ever decide to farm pot, before I buy any grow equipment, I will make sure to buy some of that Japanese maple first.”

    Right a perfect cover….until a search turns up pot plants.

  77. I realize that this is neither the best time or place to speak well of police officers, but here goes…

    Most police officers are good people, just like most of us are good people. Under relatively normal circumstances (normal for the cop, not us), like a traffic stop or when investigating a minor criminal event, if you treat them with the respect that you would like to be treated with, most of them will respond in kind.

    This has nothing to do with these kinds of circumstances that Balko reports on, but in the comments on Balko’s pieces, almost invariably commenters use that same kind of “us vs them” logic that leads to the kinds of circumstances that Balko reports on.

  78. Coincidentally, there is a “mysterious blue haze” covering Charleston, WV.

  79. highnumber,

    No.

    All of it. No.

  80. In the situation I was referring to, I think it was just somebody across the fence. If you looked over the fence, before the tomatoes ripened, they looked like little pot plants back there. I think somebody who didn’t like the stoners* that lived there just looked over the fence and figured the stoners were growing pot plants in their back yard.

    So they sent a cop back there to look. So, later, I was talking to the stoner neighbors, and I asked ’em if they noticed the cop going through the plants in their back yard a few weeks ago. They said the cops never talked to them, and they really were tomato plants, so that cop, anyway, knew the difference between a pot plant and a tomato plant. The stoners never heard anything about it.

    I haven’t been following all of Balko’s posts on this, so maybe this has already been said a hundred times, but this might explain why they couldn’t arrest the guy when he wasn’t home and then search his house?

    Maybe they didn’t have enough information to arrest him–just enough evidence or testimony to get a warrant to search his house.

    *They drove a stoner car. They had stoner jobs. They wore stoner clothes. They had stoner hair. They listened to stoner music. They were stoners.

  81. Hey, [blanky]!

    This may shock you to hear, but every single person you meet, cops included, every one of them, without exception, is another person, just like you. They live, they love, they die. They like some things, they don’t like some others, just like you. (Here, insert some treacly but true saying about love being stronger than hate.)

    I gotta say that I love Balko’s reporting, but I rarely read the comments, because I get so frustrated with the hateful, destructive attitudes that show up. Distrust authority – that’s fine. Say that the system is all screwed up – that’s true. But don’t dehumanize your fellow humans – that’s the kind of thinking that starts these messes in the first place. Be better.

  82. From Mr Balko’s update:

    If so, did he break in to Frederick’s home with instruction from the police, or on his own accord?

    There is NO way the police are going to admit that they told the guy to break in, if that’s what happened.

  83. There is NO way the police are going to admit that they told the guy to break in, if that’s what happened.

    The informant could.

  84. This may shock you to hear, but every single person you meet, cops included, every one of them, without exception, is another person, just like you. They live, they love, they die. They like some things, they don’t like some others, just like you. (Here, insert some treacly but true saying about love being stronger than hate.)

    Fry: So, who’s that weird-looking guy?
    Bender: That’s a human.
    Fry: What’s he do?
    Bender: Eh, the usual human stuff. He laughs, he learns, he loves.
    Fry: Boring.

    From episode “I, Roommate” of Futuruama

    If so, did he break in to Frederick’s home with instruction from the police, or on his own accord?

    No, but maybe if he tells the FBI that that’s what happened, they’ll let him go.

  85. highnumber, the problem with your formulation is that, whenever we actually see these stories about illegal and unethical behavior by police, you never tend to see stories that say that the bad apple was turned in by his fellow officers.

    I’d understand if you don’t remember, because the use of this excuse in politics of late has ignored the last half of this saying, but the “few bad apples” quote goes as follows:

    “A few bad apples spoils the whole bunch”.

    The blue wall of silence is real, and it transforms what could just be a few bad apples into a whole bunch gone bad. I’ll be more willing to re-evaluate this once we see the end of the blue wall of silence. Until then, those “regular, normal” cops who aid and abet the actions of their crooked brethren are just as culpable and untrustworthy.

    That’s not to say they’re all bad, but between the crooked cops, the management which continues to employ the crooked cops, and the officers who continue to tolerate the behavior of the crooked cops, I’m not inclined to believe that, when I encounter a police officer, I’m dealing with Serpico instead of Vic Mackey.

  86. highnumber

    But don’t dehumanize your fellow humans – that’s the kind of thinking that starts these messes in the first place.

    Amen.

  87. …you never tend to see stories that say that the bad apple was turned in by his fellow officers.

    That is why people don’t like, trust or respect cops. For every cop that brutalizes a citizen, there are 10 who know about it and do nothing. For every cop who perjures himself on the stand, there are others that know and do nothing. The LEO community has, in large part, adopted an Us vs, Them mentality that allows them to observe criminal actions by their “brothers in blue” and justify to themselves that it is acceptable to tolerate it. Even acceptable to cover up for a fellow officer. I don’t have the solution to the problem, but dammit, America has got to start discussing this. It’s getting worse not better.

  88. Last time I got pulled over for speeding (I was for sure) the cop asked me if I knew why he pulled me over.

    I said, “Of course, the state needs more of my money and you’re the state authorized highway robber.”

    He wasn’t amused.

  89. I doubt this kind of behavior will change until they raid another LEO’s house and someone dies.

  90. thefncrow, J sub D,

    It’s not wrong to be outraged. It’s not wrong to push for and demand change. It’s not wrong to hold people responsible for their actions or their lack of action.
    It is wrong to act like police officers aren’t people like the rest of us. Treat them as such.

    These stories drive me nuts, too, but by my morals, we have an obligation to treat our fellow humans right, and that does not go away when others behave badly. Aside from that, practically speaking, adopting that same antagonistic attitude that some of the cops have just feeds their antagonistic attitude. It’s a stupid cycle. Break it.

  91. Anyway, the important thing here is that this poor kid is in a lot of trouble right now, one man is dead, and, from the evidence we have, all for no good reason. This is the greater outrage.

  92. It is wrong to act like police officers aren’t people like the rest of us. Treat them as such.

    Highnumber, You don’t need to remind me of that. This was from the first post about this disaster’s comments. I’m a civilized, though sometimes angry, miscreant.

  93. Anyway, the important thing here is that this poor kid is in a lot of trouble right now, one man is dead, and, from the evidence we have, all for no good reason. This is the greater outrage.

    No argument. I feel for Ryan Frederick, and extend my sympathies to Officer Jarrod Shivers’ family. The War on Drugs Sanity has got to stop. The militarization of the police has got to stop.

  94. TrickyVic — A friend of mine lived across the street from a group of people who dealed out of their house. That dealer’s house was nextdoor to a house two police officers lived in. But, thank goodness, there is no SWAT team in that town.

  95. highnumber,

    I do completely agree that most cops are good people. And I’m sure that most become police officers for very noble and honorable reasons. And I also understand that they risk their lives to serve their communities as best that they know how.

    I also agree that the lives destroyed over three joints is extremely tragic. The fact that I think pot should be legal, does not matter, no one should be killed over three joints.

    But I absolutely can not understand why there is such an issue within the police force when their tactics are called into question.

    I don’t understand why the police struggle to omit it when an error in judgment has been made.

    It does not dishonor Officer Shivers’ memory if facts come out that suggest that this raid shouldn’t have been committed. What does dishonor his memory is breaking the law by concealing the facts of the case so that no one will conclude that this raid should not have happened.

  96. J sub D,

    I addressed you because you responded to the guy who responded to me. I’m not meaning to really call anyone out. I think we’re mostly of the same mind. (You can use it this weekend. I’m not planning to do much with it until Monday.)

  97. B. Right of Entry Granted:
    Animal Control Officers are hereby authorized to enter upon any premises, excluding a
    dwelling unit, in the City for the purpose of impounding animals which they are
    authorized herewith to impound, or for any other purpose authorized by this Ordinance
    and to confiscate food left for stray or homeless animals in violation of this ordinance.

    This is included in a new animal control ordinance in Dothan Alabama. Reckon how much info the animal comtrol officers will obtain for the WOD?

  98. smokeyJoe,

    I told J sub D that he could use the mind this weekend, so if you need it you’ll have to talk to him.

  99. I’m still reserving judgement on this case but if the cops sent the burglar in illegally to get evidence for the warrant I think it is time to remove the H&R ban on dancing on the “hero cop”‘s grave.

  100. Something that I have missed or hasn’t been brought up is the “right to be confronted by your accusser”. Isn’t that a portion of the 6th Amendment?

    The Sixth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution states, “In all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right ? to be confronted with the witnesses against him.”

    If so, why can’t Mr. Frederick or his council ask to question the informant? Is it only during court? I guess the 6th goes out the window with the 4th and 5th and the 2nd too, I better stop here before I get too angry.

    /pretty much given up on Constitutional Rights to protect me from any governmental excesses.

  101. This may shock you to hear, but every single person you meet, violent rapists, serial child murderers,kill-the-witnesses robbing crews, cops included, every one of them, without exception, is another person, just like you. They live, they love, they die. They like some things, they don’t like some others, just like you. (Here, insert some treacly but true saying about love being stronger than hate.)

    I am pretty fucking socially and politically conservative by H&R standards but if the LEOs on the Chesapeake drug squad are routinely using B n E men to gather evidence illegally for violent drug raids then I put them in the same category as those I added to highnumber’s quote.

  102. smokeyjoe,

    You can use Highnumber’s mind this weekend. I’m going trolling for cheap, easy, stupid women, a mind will just cause me to cancel that plan.

  103. As has been said many times, this seems to be the most dangerous way to do a raid. I’m surprised that more cops don’t speak out against those who are sending them to do a raid in the most dangerous way possible.

    thoreau, first, most of the time they are not that dangerous – they typically target people with no record of violence like some guy they think is growing pot or some poker-playing senior citizens. We only hear about it when it turns out to be more dangerous than the thugs anticipated. Secondly, they don’t complain about being sent on raids because they like conducting these military style raids. They get to put on lots of cool gear, smash down doors and carry some impressive firepower. Plus they get the added benefit of an adrenaline rush compared to their otherwise boring daily routine. I bet they have no shortage of volunteers for these raids to the point that it is probably considered a perk to get assigned to do a raid like this.

    A better question to wonder about police is why we never hear any of the so-called good cops speaking out against the abuses of power by the “few bad apples”. To those who keep repeating the mantra that “of course most cops are good” I’d say any cop that doesn’t speak out when he sees something wrong, that either actively lies to cover up, or even passively looks the other way, is in no way a good human being much less a “good cop” and The absolute silence we hear from the police is a pretty telling sign of just how many good cops there really are.

  104. Maybe the cops busted the guy when he broke into the house, and the guy thinking he saw pot, offered the information in exchange for being let go or something. The cops were itching for a raid and favored moving quick over investigating.

    Radley, I hope you get those questions answered. I’m sure you’ll keep us posted.

  105. Wow, a cop just shot a cop up here.

    Cops heard gun fire, found a guy with a gun, ordered the guy to lower his weapon, the guy turned around and the cops shot him. The guy was a cop. The Fox 5 website might have more info.

  106. “It’s pretty amazing that cops, who generally have little to no education, are taken seriously in court when they talk about seeing various plants or drugs.”

    Actually, many police departments require at least a bachelor’s degree for new recruits. That raises the question: what kind of person would spend four years in college in order to work for a rookie cop’s starting salary?

    Perhaps one with an authoritarian personality who craves a license and a (small) paycheck to thug?

  107. “In his interview with the Virginian-Pilot, Ryan Frederick said he was into gardening and landscaping, and that one reason he had the grow lamps is that he was learning how to grow Japanese maples.”

    In other, related news, the Brooklyn Bridge is for sale, condiminiums are being built on prime land in the Everglades, and Ron Paul didn’t write the newsletters.

  108. Hey, B, go fuck yourself.

  109. In his interview with the Virginian-Pilot, Ryan Frederick said he was into gardening and landscaping, and that one reason he had the grow lamps is that he was learning how to grow Japanese maples.

    The lack of triumphant press releases from the cops, usually routine when they bust a big grow op, leads me to believe him.

    On what basis are you so skeptical, B?

  110. Oh, and I might point out that your more rare cultivars of Japanese maple fetch a pretty penny. I’ve got one that I paid nearly $300 for.

    If you’ve got the skill to grow them and the patience to let them put some size on, you could have a nice little earner on your hands.

  111. highnumber, yes, cops are humans too. So what? They are actively engaged in oppressing their fellow humans. They assist each other in doing so. Why the FUCK would I extend them any courtesy?

  112. “They are actively engaged in oppressing their fellow humans. They assist each other in doing so.”

    Quite right. I see LEO’s covering up for each other just like in the case of Rodney King, standing by and cheering or just watching a fellow human getting the crap beat out of him.

    It seems that we are at an impasse in the relationship between the LEO’s and the citizens.

    The LEO’s act like anyone they encounter on a raid is an enemy of the state and not an American Citizen. The citizens can respond, but their option are limited to the actions of Mr. Frederick or just cowering in fear, even when the cops are screaming obscenities and man-handling them and telling them lies to get them to talk about the case.

    If the cops want to act like victims, so be it. They chose a line of work which has risks and responsibilities to the citizens they are sworn to protect. This ain’t soldiering, it’s policework. In my opinion, it’s a calling that requires strength, patience and compassion. Qualities I have found lacking in the latest version of SWAT v. 2.5.

    Citizens have rights and the LEO’s have forgotten or were never taught that they are public servants, not our overlords.

  113. “On what basis are you so skeptical, B”

    I posted what I did merely to piss off some (most) of the people that posted here. Why? Because frankly, it is disgusting how the people on this website act like “agents of the state” ie the police in this country are no better than the Gestapo in Nazi Germany. If the police would have come out with a “triumphant press release”, to use your words, would you have believe them? I daresay the answer to that is no, and even if they did, the same thing would have happened on this site that always happens on this site. Sick fucks would have implicitly (couldn’t do it explicitly this time because they were told they would be banned if they did) stated that the guy had what was coming to him. That is why I take every chance I get to tweak the people on this site who act like local police commissioners are no better than Heinrich Himmler; the retarded post right above mine is the perfect fucking example. The police upheld a law, one that may be misguided yes, but that is another argument, and we have assholes on this site that not only call them oppressors but they revel in this guys death as well. The following quote is exactly what I mean:

    “highnumber, yes, cops are humans too. So what? They are actively engaged in oppressing their fellow humans. They assist each other in doing so. Why the FUCK would I extend them any courtesy?”

    This pathetic piece of shit doesn’t even allow that there are decent cops doing an extremely dangerous job for lousy pay. Instead, because a man may or may not have been wrongly arrested, we have an ignorant asshole tarring all police officers as jackbooted thugs who are nothing more than glorified murderers.
    And to the same little chickenshit who writes he won’t extend any courtesy to the police, he reminds me of those shitty little countries who spend all day bashing the US, only to come groveling when the shit hits the fan.
    And you people wonder why, outside of your insignificant fucking clique, no one listens to a damn thing you say.

  114. What the hell is wrong with this country?!?!?
    Good cops are dying everyday, but the death toll of citizens shot by the law, beat, tased (tortured), wrongly arrested, lives destroyed, etc. is high enough to eclipse them. What ever happened to The constitution and the bill of rights? Can’t lay all the blame on the cops, although there are a small % that deserve their fair share, it’s the !@#$%& LAWYERS AND REPRESENTITIVES that write the unconstitutional laws that shred the rights of average citizens! Don’t blame the stormtroopers, it’s Darth Vader that ordered the attack! Ziek Heil! long live big brother!

  115. B – Read this. Do you disagree with any of the points I asserted?

  116. B – Please read this as well. Any disagreements? If so, why?

  117. Actually, many police departments require at least a bachelor’s degree for new recruits.

    From what I can see, very few do. (“a handful” based on one NYT article about Suffolk county wishing to instigate this requirement). So those that do tend to be wealthier suburban counties – you know, the type that need the least a high quality police force.

    I think the standard is something like the military: you don’t need college to get in, but you need a degree to stay in, or at least get promoted.

  118. Googlized

    College my ass, you don’t even have to be able to do math. Check out that google link.

    Here’s a sample.

    “According to the letter, applicants needed to score at least 70 percent on the mathematics section of the test. A review of the scores showed that 57.34 percent of the black applicants passed, compared to 88.91 percent of white applicants.

    The Justice Department said the test had “a significant adverse impact against both African-American applicants and Hispanic applicants.” It also said that the city failed to demonstrate that its use of the mathematics test is job-related for an entry-level police officer and is necessary to do the job.”

  119. Things won’t change until the bad cop fears the good cop and not the other way around.

  120. I know Ryan. He was developing an interest in gardening. He had recently installed koi ponds in his back yard complete with all the requisite equipment. Garage was largely cleaned out to make room for a work out area. Also, the police raided a house across the street from his earlier last year (reasonable to assume someone else would fill the dealer-gap). They thought there would be more than one person there the night they raided Ryan’s house, which is why the “stand-off” happened. Ryan surrendered within minutes of the shooting, the police stayed posted shouting over the loud-speaker for the other person (nobody else there) to come out…a fact they learned after reentering the house a couple hours later. For an op this size, one would think the surveillence before the raid would confirm # of souls inside at least…

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