John McCain and Bernard von NotHaus, Together at Last

NASHUA, NH - John McCain was chatting and smiling with aides in the lobby of my hotel as I checked out this morning. Yards away, the hundreds of Liberty Forum attendees were milling around, signing up for the weekend, shooting video of each other and the hotel. The two groups happily ignored one another: McCain has no votes to win from them and they have nothing to say to McCain.

On the way to the credentials table I ran into Bernard von NotHaus -- still a free man -- and the arguable frontrunner for the LP nomination, George Philles. "In November i think there will be only one candidate on the ballot whom libertarians can support," he said. "That's why we need a strong nominee." I asked him about his criticism of LP leadership, who've been asking Ron Paul to run. "He's a sitting Republican congressman, so the rules wouldn't permit it. If the rules changed and Ron Paul ran, I would mount a very hard campaign against him. He's not a perfect libertarian. He has real differences with libertarians on issues like abortion."

I'm struck by the realism of the Free State Project people and LP candidates, people not exactly taken seriously by mainstream New Hampshire politicos. While the full-time Paul volunteers are still hoping to win the New Hampshire primary -- lots of talk about that independent vote in Iowa -- Philles talked about harnassing the support of Paul's movement, after someone else wins the GOP nomination. Will Buchanan, who's moving from Hawaii to join the project (and walking coast-to-coast to do so), is volunteering for Paul, but he's more interested in the long-term effect Paul will have on "the freedom movement" than how many votes he'll get on Tuesday.

Comments

[Reinmoose]

Does anyone know how to contact this Will Buchanan person? Does he have good rent on the apartment he's leaving, and is it yet taken by someone else? 🙂

[Edward]

"...but he's more interested in the long-term effect Paul will have on 'the freedom movement' than how many votes he'll get on Tuesday."

That's very smart. If you're going to back a loony old fart, it's best not to focus on the votes. What effect the loony old fart will have on the freedom movement is hard to measure, and that's all for the best. Things you can actually count and measure are your enemy.

[P Brooks]

Things you can actually count and measure are your enemy.

I knew it! You're a member of the NEA! or maybe AFSCME. That would explain your hysterical aversion to limited government.

------

He's not a perfect libertarian.

Let the stone-throwing commence.

[Edward\'s Mom]

Edward, sweetie, would you be a dear and run the dishwasher?

Thanks, poopiekins.

[joe]

Edward has convinced me.

Goldwater is an utter irrelevancy in American political history. Did you see how much he lost by?

[Captain Chaos]

Edward-What is it you think you are accomplishing here? Your posts are nothing but ad hominem rants, and wouldn't even sway a semi-retarded five year old. You may believe that you are a voice shouting against the nattering in the echo chamber, but everyone here has long since realized that the voice has nothing to say. I can only assume that you somehow think what you do here makes you important or even a heroic voice of reason amidst the howling mob. You're wrong. You are accomplishing nothing, and your rants make you look like a rather dull child screaming for attention.

[Edward\'s Dad]

Damn it, Eddie. Get the hell out of the basement and go find a job. You're 32 and can't stay here forever!

[Edward\'s Mom]

I just want everyone to know that I love Edward very much.

But you should all be made aware of the fact that my little Punkin is, well, special.

[Episiarch]

Edward has still refused to answer my question about what Ron Paul did to him. He did not confirm my speculations about Ron sleeping with his girlfriend, finishing the last beer in the fridge, polishing off his stash while he was driving back from the Phish concert, or eating the last slice of pizza.

[jimmy smith]

Damn it, Eddie. Get the hell out of the shower !!
You're 32 and can't stay there forever !!

[Edward\'s Sister]

Eddie, stop "looking in on me" when I shower!

[sage]

Eddie, it's perfectly natural to experiment with your body. But not at the dinner table!

[Edward]

I can't help it! You look so much like Ron Paul and it turns me on.

[Vermont Gun Owner]

"He has real differences with libertarians on issues like abortion."

Ah, once again, Libertarian Party members are jackasses about abortion. I didn't realize the principle of "do what you want with your own stuff" said anything about whether a fetus qualifies as part of your body or as a seperate human being that you aren't allowed to kill.

[sixstring]

Well, since this thread is going nowhere I don't feel so bad about a little jacking -- did anyone else see that Greta V and Shep Smith both were advocating that Paul be included at the round table discussion with Chris Wallace? They started down the Fox News party line ("it's to be held in a narrow bus and there just isn't room for Paul") but were impressed enough with his 10% to say that they should make room for Paul too. I yelled to the TV they could give him that tool Wallace's seat but I don't think they heard me.

[crimethink]

Philles talked about harnassing the support of Paul's movement, after someone else wins the GOP nomination.

Let me get this straight: LP nutjobs are going to criticize Paul for not being a "REAL Libertarian", and then try to ride piggyback on the movement he brought to fruition by sticking his neck out and running. After they changed the platform and said "Fuck you" to pro-life libertarians like myself, I didn't think there was anything that could make me hate the LP more. I was wrong.

Plus, the LP's track record of "harnessing" independent freedom movements is, to say the least, unimpressive.

[P Brooks]

I yelled to the TV they could give him that tool Wallace's seat but I don't think they heard me.

That trade would be a substantial net gain.
Wallace could ride on the roof, in the dog crate.

[Vicki hampton]

Well I think that all of you are acting like 3 year-olds because saying five year-olds are giving you way too much credit. I also think that a couple of you here consider yourselves comedians and I am here to tell you that you missed the mark, so don't give up the day job.

[Pig Mannix]

I just want everyone to know that I love Edward very much.

But you should all be made aware of the fact that my little Punkin is, well, special.

Does this mean we should call him "Special Ed"?

*rimshot*

[sage]

Hey Vicki, how you doin'?

[Egosumabbas]

@ crimethink:
"Let me get this straight: LP nutjobs are going to criticize Paul for not being a "REAL Libertarian", and then try to ride piggyback on the movement he brought to fruition by sticking his neck out and running. After they changed the platform and said "Fuck you" to pro-life libertarians like myself, I didn't think there was anything that could make me hate the LP more. I was wrong.

Plus, the LP's track record of "harnessing" independent freedom movements is, to say the least, unimpressive."

I don't think I quite fall into the pro-life or pro-choice category (I'm more of a ban-partial-birth-abortion-but-keep-other-abortions-legal kind of guy), but, the abortion issue can cut both ways. It can be easily argued as a "right to live your life freely" issue, or "right to private property" issue. I would say that the former right overrides the latter, and nobody can quite agree on when a fetus becomes a legal human person. Basically the LP's stance that a fetus is only a human being with legal rights at birth flies in the face of reason. Oh, and if a person injures a pregnant woman and it results in a miscarriage, would that be murder or property damage to the LP?

I apologize in advance for jacking the thread and causing a flame war on a Friday.

[Egosumabbas]

Please continue bashing "Special Ed" if you wish.

[fish]

Everybody back the fuck off Edward......he's busily working on lawsuits against me and URKOBOLD as we speak!

[crimethink]

Ego,

The current LP platform reads:

We oppose government actions that either compel or prohibit abortion, sterilization or any other form of birth control.

In previous platforms, they basically washed their hands of the issue and merely said that they opposed govt funding of abortions. Apparently they thought what was holding them back from being a force in national politics was those durn pro-life libertarians. We'll see how they do without us.

[Ayn_Randian]

Apparently they thought what was holding them back from being a force in national politics was those durn pro-life libertarians. We'll see how they do without us.

Now wait a second...they get all spun up about abortion on one side that it's OK to get all in a tizzy about it on the other side?

[Episiarch]

Vicki, do you drool when you fellate McCain* or do you keep it all in your mouth?

* (her website link is all about McCain)

[crimethink]

To be honest, I never thought Dr Paul had a chance. Even if he won IA, NH, and SC, there would be a massive turnout spike in the other states to keep this "defacto Islamofascist sympathizer", to use Dondero's term, from winning the nomination.

The purpose of the RP campaign is to keep the flame of libertarianism alive within the GOP. In a few years, after the welfare-warfare branch of the GOP currently dominant has their asses handed to them by the Dems a few times, maybe the Party will be willing to give libertarianism a chance again.

[crimethink]

Ayn_Randian,

I'm not in a tizzy about it. I simply don't feel that I should support a party whose platform I disagree with on such a big issue.

[crimethink]

Plus, according to Philles, I'm not a REAL libertarian, because I disagree with REAL libertarians on abortion. So, it doesn't make sense for me to vote for the party of REAL libertarians, does it?

[Tim]

My wife and I are expecting our first child this summer, and we heard the baby's heartbeat for the first time the other day. To my way of thinking, anything that has a heartbeat (at 11 weeks old!) is alive, and has the same right not to be killed as I do. Maybe even more so because I could at least defend myself.

Could someone please tell me how this belief makes me un-libertarian?

[Egosumabbas]

[snark]
In previous platforms, they basically washed their hands of the issue and merely said that they opposed govt funding of abortions. Apparently they thought what was holding them back from being a force in national politics was those durn pro-life libertarians. We'll see how they do without us.

Well, if the popularity of Ron Paul is any indication, not very well I suppose.
[/snark]

In all serious, I'm mystified as to how abortion is such a big farking deal anyway, as if it's more important that bombing the crap out of third world countries and having this country arrest more people per capita than China or Russia. Maybe I'll never understand because I'm male.

[Warty]

Could someone please tell me how this belief makes me un-libertarian?

Because a fetus is a parasite on its mother. Duh.

[GILMORE (AKA \"THE PERFECT LIB]

I own an arsenal equivalent to the most up to date SWAT unit in the country.

I only purchase products, ANY products, on No Sales Tax day.

I am almost always on some form of performance enhancing chemical that may or not be legal

I own a stable of weasels, ferrets, and malamutes. As well as a variety of imported fauna that are strictly prohibited.

I do not have any form of identification. I simply announce I AM HERE.

I am the one who produced Two Girls One Cup.

I create homesteads for "illegal immigrants" on unused "national" lands. We renamed Yosemite, "El lugar muy bonita"

I decrypt DVDs and use the data to make new films for the Chinese. My latest work is Spideman's Brokeback Toy Story

I perform abortions of children up to the age of 16, at which point they must be cast out into the wild to fend for themselves.

I am neither man nor woman, nor transgendered. I have 2 sets of completely functional genitalia. Go figure.

Know me and fear me

[crimethink]

I thought no one would respond to Tim's challenge out of human courtesy. But then Warty proves me wrong...

Tim, for what it's worth, that belief doesn't make you un-libertarian, whatever Beltway Libertarians like Philles say. They think they have a right to the votes of pro-life libertarians, even after they changed the platform back in '06, but they're going to find out otherwise this cycle.

You'd mount a very hard campaign against Ron Paul, Philles? Well, I'll mount a very hard campaign against you, pigfucker, starting with my own vote.

[Graphite]

I have to admit I found GILMORE's post kind of funny.

[An Honest Question]

"Libertarian Party members are jackasses about abortion."

Vermont Gun Owner, not all libertarians march lockstep on this issue. Not even all LP members march lockstep on this issue. The group Libertarians for Life is a case in point.

http://www.l4l.org/

[Cesar]

Letting something like abortion divide the libertarian movement is pretty freaking stupid.

[Shorty Dawkins]

Sununu as a keynote speaker at the LibertyForum is politically stupid.

Why identify our movement with a pro-war, pro-torture, anti-civil liberties politician?

Sununu is wrong on the PATRIOT Act, Military Commisions Act, RealID, etc. He is no friend of liberty.

[Chucklehead]

(her website link is all about McCain)

"We Should Never Forget Nor Take Our Nation Or Freedom For Granite"

That only applies in New Hampshire.

[P Brooks]

I own a stable of weasels, ferrets, and malamutes. As well as a variety of imported fauna that are strictly prohibited.

Tigers, I understand, are staunch defenders of their property rights, and will brook neither trespass nor taunt.

[Another Phil]

To all the pro-lifers, let's say (for the sake of argument) that I concede that a fetus is person deserving of full political rights. A person doesn't have the right to use another person's body without their consent.

Letting something like abortion divide the libertarian movement is pretty freaking stupid.

Abortion is an important issue because it shows where a politician stands on absolute ownership of one's body. That said, there is so much work to be done for the cause of liberty that we can surely find common ground on many other issues.

[Jose Ortega y Gasset]

Ron Paul is relevant. The LP is not. No matter how much the LP would like to believe Ron Paul will make them relevant, this will not happen. The LP has effectively ruined the "brand name" of libertarianism (which was never particularly catchy). It's like the Yugo (or for our resident pedants, the Zastava Koral). Any car under the Yugo label is effectively doomed by its reputation, regardless of the manufacturer. On this note, there won't be another AMC Gremlin or Pacer or Ford Pinto. The Pinto may be the best analogy because of the LP tendency to blow up at the slightest bump.

What I wonder is if the disaffected independents will simply move based on candidate personality or if this group will coalesce around a political agenda.

[Egosumabbas]

Letting something like abortion divide the libertarian movement is pretty freaking stupid.

I agree, because it results in some pro-choice libertarians voting for Obama (instead of you-know-who), which is pretty freaking stupid.

Caveat: Not that I have anything really against Obama, he's neither Clinton nor Edwards, which makes me happy.

[Graphite]

Abortion is an important issue because it shows where a politician stands on absolute ownership of one's body.

Uhhhh, not really. There are countless pro-choice politicians out there who won't lift a finger to end the War on Drugs or scale back the FDA's obstruction of new treatments.

[Warren]

He has real differences with libertarians on issues like abortion.

This is just a stupid thing to say. As a long time member active in the LP, I can tell you that Libertarians (and especially libertarians) are as divided on abortion as the rest of the populace, and just as bitterly.

Personally, I feel that a woman has an absolute right to terminate the life of her child, for any reason whatsoever, right up until the moment of birth. And after birth, both parents have that right. At least until the little bastard gets a job.

[An Honest Question]

"A person doesn't have the right to use another person's body without their consent."

So, should a person who (of no fault of his or hers) suddenly appears inside another person's body and has no way to leave on his or her own be killed? This isn't like an intentional trespasser. This is more like a castaway who is washed up on a beach unconscious. Would you kill such a person?

[Bingo]

If fetuses were edible would PETA be for or against abortion?

[J sub D]

Libertarianism vis a vis abortion policy. Let's not go there today. Principled people disagree.

[Graphite]

If fetuses were edible would PETA be for or against abortion?

Depends on whether the parents plan to raise the kid as a vegan or a meat eater.

[James Anderson Merritt]

# Cesar wrote "Letting something like
# abortion divide the libertarian movement
# is pretty freaking stupid."

As someone who has considered himself a REAL Libertarian since the 1980s -- as well as being a dues-paying member of the LP throughout most of the interval and a registered LP voter the entire time -- I completely agree. I don't know how Mr. Phillies presumes to speak for all libertarians, or even all members of the LP, concerning this issue.

Wiegel calls Phillies "the arguable front-runner for the LP nomination." Did he get that from Phillies himself? You'll hear a different story if you ask Steve Kubby, to name just one.

I'm glad von Nothaus is still "at large." Whether you agree or disagree with the wisdom or prudence of his Liberty Dollar enterprise, what the Feds did and are doing to him -- and to thousands of people who held LD paper certificates -- was very wrong on several levels.

We need to pass Ron Paul's "Free Competition in Currency Act," HR 4683, to give von Nothaus some help and to ensure that what happened to him never happens to anyone else.

[Ayn_Randian]

If fetuses were edible would PETA be for or against abortion?

Mmm, fava beans and a nice chianti.

[Zeb]

"So, should a person who (of no fault of his or hers) suddenly appears inside another person's body and has no way to leave on his or her own be killed?"

I will not say that they should be killed. But if someone mysteriously showed up in my body, I will damn well say that I have the right to kill them to get them out of there.

[Ayn_Randian]

But if someone mysteriously showed up in my body, I will damn well say that I have the right to kill them to get them out of there.

Yeah, well, the point being that it wasn't mysterious; your actions created said person.

Hence why the populace tends to support rape exceptions.

[crimethink]

Letting something like abortion divide the libertarian movement is pretty freaking stupid.

Tell that to the head honchos of the LP who changed the platform to exclude pro-lifers. Tell it to jackass Beltway Libertarians like Philles who think that Ron Paul is less libertarian than them because he's pro-life.

I would have been content to live and let live within the LP on this issue so as to tackle the others. But apparently the LP "leadership" isn't content to do so.

[matt]

I don't know how Mr. Phillies presumes to speak for all libertarians, or even all members of the LP, concerning this issue.

If you frequented thirdpartywatch.com, you would've realized by now that George Phillies really does believe that he's the Pope of Libertarianism.

Yes, that's right. He's the keep-the-federal-reserve, purge-the-party-of-Christians, infallible Pope of the LP. And he talks shit about Ron Paul nearly every time he opens his mouth.

I really hope he gets his comeuppance at the convention.

[crimethink]

Oh, like his statement here where he condemns the LP for inviting Ron Paul to run for its nomination?

Supporting a Republican Presidential candidate was an act of fraud and a gross breach of the National Committee's fiduciary responsibilities to Libertarian Party members. If we Libertarians wanted to support a candidate of the Bush Republican war party, the party that has Americans kidnapped, held without trial, and tortured, we would have sent them our money directly.

Yeah, like Dr Paul supports that stuff.

[Condoleeza Rice]

Because a fetus is a parasite on its mother. Duh.

A live infant is also a parasitic entity, because it is hardly self-sufficient. I consider myself the finest, "chocolate love", God-doubting agnostic in the GWB cabinet, and observe that a conceived foetus does in fact have unique DNA, like a live infant.

[paul]

Hotties for Ron Paul Calendar - ongoing interview and pics

here

and

here

If anyone has any questions go to the sites and post them in the comments.
Juliet said she would stop by and answer some time tonight.

If anyone else who was in the calendar (several of you are in my friends) wants to stop by and ask and answer questions that would be cool. Just leave comments to let us know you are there.

I can use some help with digg and reddit.

http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Several_pages_from_the_Hotties_for_Ron_Paul_Calendar

http://reddit.com/info/64hxb/comments/

Check out the rest of the site while you are there

Cannoli WordPress

[Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo]

"If fetuses were edible would PETA be for or against abortion?"

Veal was originally NOT the meat of a calf kept in a box out of sunlight and without the ability to exercise but was in fact a calf foetus. I am not sure when this changed.