Civil Liberties

Teddy Bears on Trial

|

Contrary to reassurances from the Sudanese embassy in London, Gillian Gibbons, the British teacher in Khartoum who did not realize naming a teddy bear Muhammad was verboten, has been charged with blasphemy, inciting hatred, and insulting Islam. The possible penalties include a fine, 40 lashes, and six months in jail. The government promises a "swift and fair trial," saying, "she will be brought in front of a judge, and now she must prove her innocence"—which gives you a sense of how the court system works in Sudan. Gibbons' lawyer says the defense will be straightforward: She had "absolutely no intention to insult religion, and for blasphemy to take place there must be an insult."

Some observers speculate that Gibbons' arrest and trial are payback for her country's excessive interest in Darfur. ("You say we're a repressive regime? We'll show you!") But A.P. suggests the truth is more disturbing:

The country's top Muslim clerics have pressed the government to ensure that she is punished, comparing her action to author Salman Rushdie's "blasphemies" against the Prophet Muhammad.

The British novelist was accused of blasphemy by many Muslims for his 1988 novel "The Satanic Verses," which had a character seen as a reference to the prophet. Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini issued a religious edict calling for Rushdie's death.

What's worse than cynically prosecuting a harmless schoolteacher for accidentally violating a taboo that even her Muslim students (who overwhelmingly voted to call the stuffed animal Muhammad) did not know about? Doing so in the sincere belief that she represents an intolerable threat to morality and public order.

NEXT: Fishy FEMA Follies

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. Right now, Gibbons is so wishing they had chosen “Superdude” instead.

  2. What’s worse than cynically prosecuting a harmless schoolteacher for accidentally violating a taboo that even her Muslim students (who overwhelmingly voted to call the stuffed animal Muhammad) did not know about? Doing so in the sincere belief that she represents an intolerable threat to morality and public order.

    Sadly, this is par for the course when it comes to Islam.

  3. Right now, Gibbons is so wishing she kept herself and her bleeding heart home.

    (And what de stijl said.)

  4. See, folks, this is what theocracy looks like. However backward they may be on issues like use of vibrators and the proper definition of incest, Our Masters in the Deep South and their religious conservative pals are a long, long way from this.

    Perspective, please.

  5. Just when you think islamic nutjobs can’t get any more nutjobier. I must accept the fact that I will continue to be surprised that things *can* surprise me any longer.

    Oh, and “I am Muhammad! I am Muhammad! I am Muhammad!”

    Come and get me you hyper-ferverent asshats, who really need to be working on building their own inner circle of Hell actually *in* Hell, instead of this crap.

  6. I hereby dub JW “Muhammad.”

    So, Mo, how’s it hangin’?

  7. RC,

    The point is, we don’t trust them to stop at the vibrators.

    Yes, this is what theocracy looks like. Let’s not go there.

  8. Sadly, this is par for the course when it comes to Islam.

    If you cherry pick your information about Islam.

  9. Yes, this is what theocracy looks like. Let’s not go there.

    In other news, Mike Huckabee is leading in Iowa according to the most recent Rasmussen poll.

  10. If the punishment is essentially inevitable, she should just agree to plead guilty as long as the punishment is carried out publicly and that the children be permitted (not coerced) to view the proceedings.

    Never mind, stupid idea. I’m just too much of an optimist sometimes.

  11. So, Mo, how’s it hangin’?

    You know, the usual, too many infidels, not enough virgins.

  12. RC and joe both have good points. RC is right that we’re definitely not there yet, and joe is right that we don’t want to take chances on even getting close.

    First they came for the sex toys. And I said nothing because all of mine were purchased cash-only so nobody can prove they’re mine. Then they came for the sex toys that look like stuffed animals. And I said nothing because those sorts of fantasies don’t appeal to me. Then they came for the regular stuffed animals, and there was nobody left to speak for me. 🙂

  13. Sadly, this is par for the course when it comes to Islam.

    More like theocracy in general. Punish the heretics, and so forth.

  14. What Laursen said.

  15. At least the prickly musselmen haven’t discovered the “mandatory minimum” concept.

  16. Instead of the 40 lashes, could she opt for a good old-fashioned caning? She might enjoy it. I know I would (the giving, not the getting). I keed of course.

  17. Quite right, Jim Bob. This most certainly is not par for the course in Turkey, or Bosnia, or Albania, or any other non-theocratic state that is majority-Muslim.

  18. Clearly we must invade, for our close friends the British. It’s not like she went there of her own stupid will and put herself in this situation*.

    * I think it sucks, but you really shouldn’t go to third-world theocratic hellholes if you aren’t prepared to deal with the insanity there.

  19. In other news, Mike Huckabee is leading in Iowa according to the most recent Rasmussen poll.

    The chances of that dopey, intellectually lazy obtuse coward ever becoming president are slim to none. I’d be more afraid of President Giuliani.

  20. turn them to rubble!

  21. Instead of the 40 lashes, could she opt for a good old-fashioned caning? She might enjoy it. I know I would (the giving, not the getting). I keed of course.

    British schoolteacher being whipped does have a sort of man-bites-dog aspect to it.

  22. Why do multiculturalists get all squishy in these cases? We should respect Sudanese culture and applaud their efforts to resist the cultural imperialism of this school marm.

  23. This incident sounds like a classic case of “me-too” over reaction.

    Persons in Iran issue death warrants against Rushdie for blasphemy; Sudan finds blasphemy in teddy-bear naming.

    New York gets assaulted by terrorists in jet planes; Boston suspects terrorists behind an ad stunt.

  24. To Laursen and Timon – where are the muslims speaking up for the teacher (besides the little kid Muhammed that picked the name)? It’s the same thing people asked after 9/11. If this really doesn’t represent islam, then where are all the muslims speaking up and against this regime? Where are the muslims saying this is ridiculous and these people need to get a grip?

    I’m willing to at least partially accept the “MSM doesn’t cover them” answer, but plenty of Americans speak up when our own religious fanatics get out of line. It would go a long way with me if some muslims did the same thing, especially if I didn’t have to look so hard to find it.

  25. More like theocracy in general. Punish the heretics, and so forth.

    What other theocracies are left besides Islam-based ones? I suppose whatever is going on in North Korea can be considered a theocracy, though it sounds more like just one nutcase with too much power.

  26. then where are all the muslims speaking up and against this regime?

    They were all put to death, along with the trade union leaders, many years before.

  27. What other theocracies are left besides Islam-based ones?

    Vatican City. Also, the English monarch is the head of the C of E.

  28. The BJP, recently the ruling party in India, is pretty theocratic.

    Nicaragua has, on the government payroll, uterus inspectors, who perform forenstic examinations on uteruses removed from women who’ve had hysterectomies, to make sure they don’t show any signs of having had an abortion performed. The regime in Myanmar relocated the capital based on the advice of an astrologer.

  29. The point is, we don’t trust them to stop at the vibrators.

    Yes, this is what theocracy looks like. Let’s not go there.

    Amen!

  30. Quite right, Jim Bob. This most certainly is not par for the course in Turkey, or Bosnia, or Albania, or any other non-theocratic state that is majority-Muslim.

    Indeed. An anecdote: I have visited Turkey and found the people open and friendly; none of them struck me as zealots.

  31. mike, they did.

    NBC Nightly News last night shared letters and an interview of Muslims speaking out against the Sudanese response.

    They even pointed out that most Sudanese think the Sudanese response is ridiculous.

    *taptaptap* Here it is, although there’s no mention in the text. It should be on the video, so long as they post the same video they broadcast.

  32. What other theocracies are left besides Islam-based ones? I suppose whatever is going on in North Korea can be considered a theocracy, though it sounds more like just one nutcase with too much power.

    See joe@11:16am.

  33. Ooh, I know this game!

    “OK, but why don’t they denounce it MORE?”

  34. Thanks Bronwyn.

  35. It would go a long way with me if some muslims did the same thing, especially if I didn’t have to look so hard to find it.

    Especially if they were respected cleric (mullahs). I’m waiting, guys.

  36. Indeed. An anecdote: I have visited Turkey and found the people open and friendly; none of them struck me as zealots.

    Most zealots are just that, right up to the point that you get with the blaspheming. The parades of bloody martyrs are only for the tourists anyway.

  37. joe – I’m not about that game. It’s just that the last article I read on the topic indicated that there are people in Sudan calling for execution. I know that doesn’t mean everybody is, but there was no mention of Sudanese saying “this is ridiculous.”

    I also understand that Sudanese muslims could obviously be concerned about speaking out about something like this. And obviously, the MSM coverage I saw could be tainted by some “look at what those crazy brown people are doing” sensationalism.

  38. RC and joe both have good points. RC is right that we’re definitely not there yet, and joe is right that we don’t want to take chances on even getting close.

    Actually, the real truth is that equitable distribution of a reasonable amount of wealth civilizes people. When life in the Deep South for poor people was as bad as it is in Sudan now, there were plenty of taboos and lashings.

    As the poor people got some money, things got more and more civilized.

    It is unfair to compare things like taboo, superstition and a refined sense of justice across this wide an economic gulf, which is the problem with what both joe and RCD are doing here, T.

  39. You’re welcome, mike 🙂

    NBC cheeses me off pretty much every broadcast, but they got it right in this instance.

  40. Nicaragua has, on the government payroll, uterus inspectors, who perform forenstic examinations on uteruses removed from women who’ve had hysterectomies, to make sure they don’t show any signs of having had an abortion performed.

    While opposition to abortion is often religiously inspired, it is not necessarily so. Atheist communist governments have also outlawed abortion (communist Romania for example).

  41. Jim Bob | November 29, 2007, 11:06am | #

    In other news, Mike Huckabee is leading in Iowa according to the most recent Rasmussen poll.

    The chances of that dopey, intellectually lazy obtuse coward ever becoming president are slim to none.

    Hmm. Why does the 2000 election come to mind?

  42. “Vatican City. Also, the English monarch is the head of the C of E.”

    So, this incident is not really an example of what theocracies look like?

  43. Actually, the real truth is that equitable distribution of a reasonable amount of wealth civilizes people.

    Mrs TWC says we should skip the foreign aid and just send Ipods and cell phones…..

    I think she (and you) may have a point.

  44. Imam Elahi, regurarly (monthly?) opines in the Op-Ed section of the Detroit News. It’s part of a weekly feature titled Faith and Policy. There is a priest, a rabbi and the aforementioned Imam, (no, this is not a joke) who rotate their views on policy as it relates to their faith. To the best of my recollection, the worthy Imam has never criticized Islamic fundamentalism. He HAS SUGGESTED that we put

  45. I am going to sell “Mohammed Bearladen” stuffed bears and I will make a million dollars.

    Then I will buy Eric Dondero’s mom new boobs.

  46. The jihadists got J sub D!

  47. Crap. The mouse slipped. ;-(

    Imam Elahi, regurarly (monthly?) opines in the Op-Ed section of the Detroit News. It’s part of a weekly feature titled Faith and Policy. There is a priest, a rabbi and the aforementioned Imam, (no, this is not a joke) who rotate their views on policy as it relates to their faith. To the best of my recollection, the worthy Imam has never criticized Islamic fundamentalism. He has suggested that we put Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s wipe israel off the map comments “in context”.

    I’ll wait and see (with little optimism) on what he’ll have to say about this.

  48. mike,

    Methinks, as noted by Bronwyn, you may have been expecting instant response. Seeing none, you made your comment. Alternatively, this is a stock argument from some sort of playbook and you simply used it without looking yourself.

    Perhaps iih has some anecdotal evidence of Muslims actually condemning zealot-idiots who profess to be Islamic.

  49. He has suggested that we put Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s wipe israel off the map comments “in context”.

    You mean the remark that doesn’t actually include the Persian word for “map?”

    Our media are waaaaaayyyyyyy too gullible about MEMRI’s translations, and people take them at face value.

  50. I think Israel qualifies as an theocracy.

  51. Mrs TWC says we should skip the foreign aid and just send Ipods and cell phones…..

    either that or socialize the oil profits. lol

  52. See, folks, this is what theocracy looks like. However backward they may be on issues like use of vibrators and the proper definition of incest, Our Masters in the Deep South and their religious conservative pals are a long, long way from this.

    True, but the Sudan is a long way from where I live. What goes on there has absolutely no discernable impact on my life. My fundy neighbors, while less extreme in their views, do. As an example, it’s a serious pain in the ass for me, a wine buff, to order from directly vinyards thanks to laws largely supported by tetotalling fundamentalists (among others). Muslim fundamentalists, however, lack any political power whatsoever in the United States and have no reasonable risk of obtaining it.

  53. hey guyz if you live in awesome places like new york you meet muslims all the time who are not into this whole everlasting spiritual war without end forever and ever and ever thing.

    somewhere in the world right now someone in france is writing the exact same thing about americans and bush.

    blessed be his name.

  54. re: Muslims speaking out. From the BBC:

    Sudan’s top clerics have called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.

    But in Britain, the Islamic Human Rights Commission was among Muslim groups to call for her immediate release.

    Chairman Massoud Shadjareh said: “Both the Sudanese government and the media must refrain from using Islam and Islamic principles to legitimi[z]e this fiasco, which may result in the unjust conviction of an innocent person, and which will only lead to the promotion of Islamophobia and further demoni[z]ation of Islam.”
    And a spokesman for the Muslim youth organisation, the Ramadhan Foundation, said “this matter is not worthy of arrest or detention and her continued detention will not help repair the misconceptions about Islam.”

  55. Joe, out of curiosity, what do they claim he actually said? I’m sure it was far more reasonable. Very sure.

  56. Don’t blame me, I voted for Mr. Splashy Pants

  57. Joe-Then what did he want to wipe Israel off of? His kitchen counter? That whackytacky tie he likes to wear on Fridays?

    Despite the snarky tone, I really am asking a serious question, btw.

  58. I know that doesn’t mean everybody is, but there was no mention of Sudanese saying “this is ridiculous.”

    Since Sudan is a dictatorship, I’m assuming the people who disagree with government decisions tend to find themselves in jail. This might explain why the volume is muted on the speakers.

  59. As the war on drugs has proven time and time again, theocracy is not the only form of government that creates absurb crimes and punishments under the guise of maintaining morality and public order.

    IMO, it is just as ridiculous for a government to punish people for the possession of a plant as it is for offending members of a religion.

    I am sure that many of the marijuana offenders serving their mandatory minimums after having their assets seized would be more than willing to accept 40 lashes and 6 months in jail instead.

  60. MysteryFish and Cap’n Chaos,

    According to all of the Persians I know, he may not have actually said ‘map’ but his meaning is the same. That’s just being pedantic. The context is that Ahm. is essentially their equivalent of a redneck who has some social license to wildly exaggerated and rabble-rouse without the expectation of being taken seriously. It’d be like if Ted Nugent was our president. IE, you’re not supposed to take it seriously.

    Now, I don’t believe that makes it any better, but this is what I’ve been told. Grain of salt and all.

  61. Mystery Fish, Captain Chaos,

    “The government of Israel (might have been Zionist government) will be expunged from the pages (or book) of history.”

    Still not a very soothing sentiment, but I trust that I don’t have to explain the difference between a government and a people on the Reason Magazine web log.

  62. “The BJP, recently the ruling party in India, is pretty theocratic.

    Nicaragua has, on the government payroll, uterus inspectors, who” …

    Look over there ! No ! Over there, dangit !!!

  63. Happyjack is right – Sudan isnt exactly a haven of rational debate of public policy.

    The motivation for this prosecution likely has more to do with threatening the foreign NGO population in Sudan, who the ruling party sees as ‘rabble rousing’, and inciting criticism over darfur. They’d use any possible line to put Brits in jail, and then use that as bargaining chip in getting the peaceniks to leave them the fuck alone and let them massacre their citizenry.

    Also, they’re just stupid as fuck. They lack the perspective that the rest of world has on how fucking backward they are. They probably think that having a ‘trial’ makes them look modern, as opposed to tying her to a tree and stoning her to death – the usual practice.

    the more i read about africa in general, the more cynical i get about the idea that colonialism was actually the cause of how fucked up things are in general. Even Chinua Achebe had a change of heart where he said (something like), ‘at a certain point, the post-colonialism explanation falls short’…

    2000-2004 I used to spend a lot of time with graduate students in International Affairs @ Columbia U, and I (being a war history dilletante) would ask them which ongoing war was the most costly at the moment – and virtually none of them even mentioned the Congo. I mean few even had the basic facts down. And some of these people were ‘Africa Specialists’. It was unnerving. There was a certain reticence to accuse Africans of being to blame for their own problems – and they preferred to talk in terms of ‘post-conflict societies’, like nations that become incapable of managing their own affairs and need the wise assistance of NGOs and the UN to calm the fuck down. They didnt have any explanation for why they didnt forsee Rwanda, and the wars in the region that have killed 5+million people in last 9 years.

    Anyhoo. Rant off. Maybe this lady will go teach kids somewhere where the government actually appreciates the help.

  64. Why does he think their government is Zionist?

  65. SM,

    I’ll make sure and check with you before I answer any more questions people ask me.

    Oh, wait, no I won’t. I’ll just point and laugh at you for your petulant reaction to hearing answer you don’t like.

    Haw haw!

  66. Dave W,

    Why does he think the Israeli government is Zionist?

    Is this a joke?

  67. I thought it was considered improper to say that Israel has a Zionist government. George Bush never said that. Neither did John Kerry or Bill Clinton.

  68. What’s all the fuss about. Why, Mohammed is a fine name. In fact, I have given that name to my prize winning Poland China.

    What is all this comments about Islam being a religion of peace. More like a peice of ass! All those peaceniks on their hands and knees on their kindygarten nap rugs with their butts in the air as if they were waiting for Allah to bugger them.

  69. You gotta feel sorry for a god who is so weak he can’t stand up to a elementary school teacher.

  70. Yes, feel sorry for God. That’ll help.

  71. …personally I think she ought to be whipped for thinking that going to live in the Sudan was a good idea in the first place. When she leaves she’ll have some lovely welts as souvenirs of her delightful stay in a Muslim theocracy.

    Remember that a majority of second generation Muslims in Britain recently polled believe that England should be under Sharia Law. Maybe that gives us a hint as to why there isn’t much of an outcry from the “moderate” portion of Islam.

  72. Dave W.,

    I suspect you might be thinking of that bizarre Middle Eastern colloquialism “the Zionist Entity,” used by people who can’t bring themselves to say “Israel.”

    Hey, now that the Muslim Brotherhood has bloggers, we’re going to see people write “ZOMG! ZOMG! Teh Zionist Entity!”

  73. So some people can’t say Zionist, and other people can’t say Israel. Wotta world of conflicting taboos we live in!

  74. Convicted

    Sentenced to 15 days in prison, then deportation

  75. Sudan and most of Africa is not worth the turd I just deposited in the commode. Let’s stop trying to help a region that does not want help. Let it murder and starve itself into oblivion. People like Bob Geldof and that misguided British teacher need to be put in a padded cell.

  76. I thought it was considered improper to say that Israel has a Zionist government. George Bush never said that. Neither did John Kerry or Bill Clinton.

    The movement that established the state of Israel included such groups as the World Zionist Organization. It might be considered impolite nowadays (I honestly don’t know), but it’s still quite accurate.

  77. I think even the Sudanese Embassy in London said the whole thing was a stupid kerfuffle that ought to blow over. (No word yet on how many attaches have sought asylum.)

    The notion that this is retaliation for Darfur seems sensible to me; rather like the Iranians seizing those British sailors as bargaining chips for Iranians who had been detained in Iraq. It will be interesting to see exactly how this plays out. (As an aside, I love how tinpot crapholes always insist that ‘the law must take its course’ when something likes this happens. It gives me a warm, fuzzy, the-world-is-predictable feeling.)

  78. Sentenced to 15 days in prison, then deportation

    Get a ghostwriter.
    Spit the story out.
    Cash in.
    Time is of the essence here.
    Do not dawdle.
    You’ve only got 15 minutes.
    The clock is ticking.

  79. ooh! WOMAN IN PRISON genre.

    (yes, that was probably unnecessary)

  80. See joe@11:16am.

    Sorry, those are examples of fascism, not theocracies. They aren’t using religion as the basis of the entire legal system, and the BJP isn’t even trying to exclude other religions.

  81. Comments from someone who actually went to the school:

    http://www.aqoul.com/archives/2007/11/flogging_a_dead.php

    Reactions have been typical, ranging from the ‘what do you expect from Muslim savages’, . . .

    she must read hit and run

    . . .to the exaggeratedly tolerant ‘we have to respect their culture’ but there are a couple of issues of note which have not been sufficiently covered. Firstly, having had the dubious honour of attending the said institution (the choice of ‘well heeled’ Sudanese and expat children) for some time due to one of my father’s random diplomatic postings, I am aware that there has always existed an uneasy truce between the highly Westernised elite that chose to send their children to the school and local government authorities who resented the very existence of such an elite and their access to the admittedly exceptional education the school offered. Were it not for the ironic fact that high ranking government officials mostly sent their children to the school, the co-existence would have been much more challenging.

  82. Maybe the Church of England is an example of the State controlling the Church, instead of the Church controlling the State.

  83. Sorry, those are examples of fascism, not theocracies. They aren’t using religion as the basis of the entire legal system, and the BJP isn’t even trying to exclude other religions.

    I suspect that they’re not examples of even minor theocracies because, in this case, you would find it inconvenient to consider them as such.

  84. This teacher will go to jail and only the true God, which is not Islam’s so called allah, and her tormentors will know what they will do to this kuffar.

    I am reading (choking on) the Koran… What a lousy piece of pig sh*t that book is. It is full of hate. Kuffar, such as all those that reject that book are looked down upon as less then human. They can be killed, in the name of their so called allah with no more thought than what one would do to kill livestock.

    The fact of the matter is we in the West have not woken up to the threat that these Islamic sub-humans wish to impose on all of us. Kuffar worthy of death because we who are enlightened cannot accept the Koran as the word of god, which it isn’t.

    For those that have not read it, it is full of hate for any that do not believe their stinking rotten religion. It puts down women, it puts down any that fail to submit to their faith. Listen to their mullahs… they spew out disdain for Western Civilization. And they encourage their followers from children up to strive not for life but to become martyrs (murderers) for their faith.

    Martyrs… HA!

    The Christian idea of martyr is one that speaks their faith and is persecuted for it– usually put to death by others for their belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

    The Islam (Islamofascist) idea for martyr is one that straps on a bomb and blows it and himself to smithereens in a crowd of innocents.

    And the mullahs preach the love of death for their santanic god, allah rather than living the life that the real God gave them.

    Everyone needs to critically understand what this perverse religion represents, and how if it is taken as it is written in their Koran, as the islamofascists have, what lies ahead for Western Civilization.

    They intend to destroy us, just as certainly as Hitler intended to take over Europe, and with his Axis forces the world at large. They made no bones about it. Fortunately for us our last generation took the threat seriously.

    Now we are sleeping. We have not yet woken up to the islamofascist threat that we face.

    A teacher is going to get a lashing and time a Islamic jail (where she will most likely be abused in the worst way). We protest. But look at what Islamics demand of us? We as a people (Kuffar) walk softly in the face of their demands.

    They come to our country, many wearing the garb of their faith. Few find jobs, live in poverty, and then in the case of some European countries riot in the streets for their Islamic rights. Well, if they wish to live among us, they must also take our culture as it is. That means dress as we do, but all the while they can practice their faith in their homes and in their mosques. But now… that is not what they want… They come to our countries with an agenda… To subdue us with their numbers.

    When will we wake up and stand up to these bastards.

    Who are they to impose their religion on us?

    And Islamics make outrageous demands that we respect their stinking pig sh*t religion, yet they can defile ours, our people, blow up our buildings, threaten us with death unless we submit…

    And we walk softly so as not to “upset” them?

    Where are the Islamic moderates? THERE ARE NONE!
    They silently nod this Islamic agenda.

    Go to youtube and see “Obsession: The Islamic War Against the West.” It will open your eyes. And also follow the series there about the Islamic agenda in the UK’s mosques. And there is another that covers what the mullahs say in their own works… also consider the statements of that nut case that runs Iran…

    Death to America… Death to the West… Death to Israel … Death to all Kuffar… all this and not to mention that one must not name a teddy bear muhammed…

    (I would not curse my dog with such a name)

    I sure hope that when the next mega attach against the West occurs, as Be Laden and his ilk have promised, that we as members of a free Western Civilization wake up— AND FIGHT!

    They want to die and be martyrs as their wish in life– fine…

    Let’s oblige them.

    Callforjustice911

  85. Well, Callforjustice911, that post was full of potent stupidity. Please crawl back in your hole and stay there.

  86. I am reading (choking on) the Koran… What a lousy piece of pig sh*t that book is. It is full of hate. Kuffar, such as all those that reject that book are looked down upon as less then human. They can be killed, in the name of their so called allah with no more thought than what one would do to kill livestock.

    Give examples.

  87. Give examples.

    For any example he could come up with, I’m confident an analogous passage can be found in the Holy Bible.

  88. Mike Laursen:

    He could come up with examples from all these texts. But I bet he prefers the same interpretation of the text the terrorists like to use.

    FWIW, weeks ago, I went through and read the entire first chapter of Quraan (50 pages long) in Arabic (I am a native speaker) and found not a single commandment to incur injury on anyone. None. What it does say are things to the effect of saying “God is unhappy about some Christians and Jews… in specific occasions”, etc. Somehow, the “some” gets dropped out by the extremist Muslims and the likes of “callforjustice911”. When I read these passages (as hateful as it may seem), I do not take it to be talking about ALL non-Muslims nor does it give any commandment to go and harm anybody. It is simply God’s opinion (as quoted in the txt) regarding “some” people.

    Anyhow, I will keep reading and I will keep an open mind (but I hope that you don’t consider me another “superstitious” man of religion. I am primarily a man of spirituality, and do appreciate the spiritual of all people, including that of the atheists (yes they are spiritual, but not necessarily in the sense of “religion”, though some of them take their atheism and make a dogmatic religion out of it.)

    my 2 cents.

  89. Regarding “in specific occasions”, this is sometimes omitted from the text, I have to say. That is why religious scholars study the timing, the occasions, and circumstance in which the verses are revealed. These are often used as methods to explain the text. This part of the study, however, is ignored by the extremists and those who just bash the entire religion as hateful. Their interpretations are shallow if not almost always lacking the required “science” in understanding the text.

  90. Start reading the Koran… See where it goes…

    Bin Laden is living and striving for that Islamic dream world that is presented in that unholy book. He and his followers understand well, and know how to apply it to all Kuffar.

    It is a matter of taking the Koran to heart and he and his extremist followers have done that.

    Only they are the true followers of Islam…

    There are no moderates if one takes that book to heart.

    The Bible, yes there is violence there, especially in the Old Testament. But it was for some purpose, to illustrate some sin or thing that God was against. And it also exposed the inherent violence of mankind… All leading to one place, and one time where Grace would abound.

    I don’t need to go into that, but the fact is that the Koran is NOTHING EVEN CLOSE TO THE BIBLE.

    I could provide many examples of hatred out of the pages of the Koran and the Islamic death wish for all Kuffar which the Koran equates with pigs. Kuffar are worthy of death in the eyes of Islamics, and they send from their masdrasses suicide bombers with that call out of the Koran to do so.

    Go and read it. It is in just about every other page, a disdain for Kuffar… US!

    Bin Laden knows the Koran well…. He is the true face of Islam, a person that knows the book and its intent.

    There are no moderates.

    And in his eyes, even they are Kuffar.

    God help the world if we do not stand up against the threat that he and his followers can indeed inflict upon us.

    Callforjustice911

  91. The Bible, yes there is violence there, especially in the Old Testament. But it was for some purpose, to illustrate some sin or thing that God was against.

    Genesis 19:7: “Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes…”

    What exactly was God against in this Old Testament passage?

    All leading to one place, and one time where Grace would abound.

    Matthew 7:14: “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

    In other words, most people will be going to Hell. How does that amount to abounding grace?

  92. So who is making the “Muck Fuhammad” t-shirts for the college kids to wear during bowl season?

  93. There was always SOMETHING out there in the deep, mysterious void. IT was ONE. IT was simple when ignored and complex when observed. IT was incomprehensible and without definition. And in its complexity IT was neither being nor non-being; neither male nor female. IT was without form, and without need of sustenance of any kind. IT knew neither time nor space and yet IT birthed all being as yin and all non-being as yang. IT was TAO, the Way of all things, the eternal source and sustainer of all things.

    And then there was time and sequence of events, and yin and yang gave birth to the illusion of all division and being.

    When men began to divide things by naming them, many named IT God and gave IT cultural names.

    And thus it came to be that

    There are as many names for God as there are tongues to speak them.

    There are as many faces of God as there are eyes to behold them.

    There are as many paths to God as there are feet to walk them.

    No name is the complete name.

    No face is the complete face.

    No path is the complete path.

  94. Wow, that crap makes me embarrassed to be from the same country as you, Call.

  95. Bin Laden knows the Koran well

    How do you know that? Why isn’t it that the moderate Muslims are the ones who understand the Quran well? Should I suggest then that Tim McVeigh understood the Bible well?

  96. Now those Islamic bastards over in Sudan are crowding the streets demanding this woman’s EXECUTION!

    Why because the mosques over there and the Islamofascist leaders in those mosques are stirring up the people to make the demand.

    When is the West going to wake up!

    We are at war with Islamic culture, a sinister, evil religion that has made quite clear that they intend to wipe us out.

    If we don’t wake up and fight them— they will do as they intend and we will roll over and die.

    Where is our Winston Churchill today, where are those that will stand up and say it like is? He saw the threat of NAZI’ism right from the start. And he was strident is speaking out about it, yet Europe and British government sought “appeasement” to avoid war…

    But as Churchill predicted… War came.

    We are in the same boat now with a far greater threat than NAZI’ism ever was. We try to appease and the Islam shits on us…

    Bush should have gone to the American public and a joint session of Congress and declared all out war against Afganistan and Pakistan. And in so doing asked for the American people to flood the armed services and finish this war right from the start. Those are the countries that started this… Taliban and all. And just look at Pakistan now? Islamofacists are trying now to take over the country! And that country has the A-bomb!

    And the U.S. and the West stand by and do nothing.

    When we finally wake up to the threat that Islam poses to us, and finally go to all out war… Maybe history will look back at Bush and Blair as Churchill’s of our time.

    Callforjustice911

    BTW:
    iih (aka Ali) Tim McVeigh did not understand the Bible, nor was he a Christian.

    And there are no Islamic moderates… Speak up if their are… Where are you?

  97. Bush should have gone to the American public and a joint session of Congress and declared all out war against Afganistan and Pakistan. And in so doing asked for the American people to flood the armed services and finish this war right from the start.

    Let’s be clear on what you’re asking for. The wars that the United States has engaged in so far in that area were against regimes or governments, not against Islam. There has always been an assumption of preserving the American concept of freedom of religion in those countries. Are you proposing conquering these countries and either forcibly converting the people, or perhaps slaughtering them if they refuse to convert?

    And there are no Islamic moderates… Speak up if their are…

    Bullshit. I personally know quite a few.

  98. iih (aka Ali) Tim McVeigh OBL did not understand the Bible Quran.

    What comes around goes around.

    And there are no Islamic moderates… Speak up if their are… Where are you?

    I am speaking up against OBL and his followers and against ignorants like you. See my blog (click my name).

  99. Guys, why are you feeding this particularly virulent troll?

    Seriously, this guy makes me pine for DanT’s bullshit.

  100. Timon19: Going back to an older discussion, I watched a CBC documentary on Dubai the other day. Even I did not realize how advanced Dubai has become. They’re buying 20% of Nasdaq?!?

  101. Guys, why are you feeding this particularly virulent troll?

    Purely for sport. Because I’m sitting here compiling code.

  102. Yeah… for the entertainment value.

  103. Timon19: Going back to an older discussion, I watched a CBC documentary on Dubai the other day. Even I did not realize how advanced Dubai has become. They’re buying 20% of Nasdaq?!?

    Dubai is absolutely nuts. Abu Dhabi is now starting projects to keep up – gotta make sure the rivalry doesn’t get one-sided and all.

    On the one hand, it’s all very smart that they’re not putting all their eggs in the oil basket (Dubai never had much anyway – which is a big part of why they’re so far ahead of everyone else). On the other hand, this prosperity is so extremely real-estate-driven that there WILL be consequences of a very dramatic nature if they don’t ease off a bit. It’s like the bubbliest of all bubbles. They’re building high-priced capacity that can never hope to be even 60% filled.

    All the money is being generated on speculation on buildings and housing. All the space gets bought almost as soon as it goes on sale, but it’s being bought by speculators, by and large. Very few of the purchases are by actual companies/residents.

    This is why it’s no longer very cheap to live and work in Dubai, and is, in fact, a massive nightmare for the laborers and poorer ex-pats. Even well-off ex-pats are re-thinking, as what they save in taxes and other expenses is being gobbled up by rising real-estate costs and the attendant shortage of affordable living areas due to the rampant speculation.

    Abu Dhabi, in that sense, is way better off with their slower expansion, but even there, expenses have risen in a big way compared to only 3 years ago, when I started making trips out there.

    Someone’s got to get control of things in Dubai especially, or it’s going to get really funky in about 10 years. They’ve already had major worker protests with rioting (which the local media tried to ignore, then minimize after it was over). They just got done with an “amnesty” offer (because of low-end worker dissatisfaction, mostly) where any “illegal workers” wishing to leave the country could do so, no questions asked. They reportedly got a huge response. After the aforementioned protests, the government deported a bunch of the workers, but it was more of a mutual termination thing. They didn’t mind leaving at all.

    Purely for sport. Because I’m sitting here compiling code.

    Yeah… for the entertainment value.

    Carry on, then!

  104. “Yes, this is what theocracy looks like. Let’s not go there.

    In other news, Mike Huckabee is leading in Iowa according to the most recent Rasmussen poll.”

    It was only a matter of time before some asshat engaged in moral equivalence that accomplishes only one thing, making the person doing it look like a total idiot. Congratulations Reinmoose, you have indeed confirmed that you are a total fucking idiot

  105. “Quite right, Jim Bob. This most certainly is not par for the course in Turkey, or Bosnia, or Albania, or any other non-theocratic state that is majority-Muslim.”

    Not par for the course in Turkey, eh? Is this the same country where it is illegal to insult both “Turkishness” and Islam? Maybe you should come up with a better example. And it is pretty revealing that you could only list three countries, one of which is flat-out wrong. I have no idea what compels idiots in the west, a naive political correctness probably, to deny the simple fact that Islam and liberal democracy are incompatible. A basic tenet of Islam is that sharia is the only acceptable law for Muslims to live under. This is quite a contrast to Christianity’s “render unto Caesar” approach.

  106. B: You need a history lesson.

  107. Mike Laursen | November 30, 2007, 10:57am | # wrote:

    “Bush should have gone to the American public and a joint session of Congress and declared all out war against Afganistan and Pakistan. And in so doing asked for the American people to flood the armed services and finish this war right from the start.”

    Let’s be clear on what you’re asking for. The wars that the United States has engaged in so far in that area were against regimes or governments, not against Islam. There has always been an assumption of preserving the American concept of freedom of religion in those countries. Are you proposing conquering these countries and either forcibly converting the people, or perhaps slaughtering them if they refuse to convert?

    And there are no Islamic moderates… Speak up if their are…

    Bullshit. I personally know quite a few.”

    Did I say anything about conversion? They can believe anything they want JUST SO LONG AS THEY DON’T IMPOSE THEIR BELIEF ON ME. I am a infidel (Kuffar) and proud of it. What It is a matter of destruction. Wipe them out… They (islamofascists) want to be martyrs so be it… rather than have them come to our shores with bombs to blow us up in that quest.

    The only way to deal them is to make them hate war. We had to do that during WWII and we are now in WWIII, if you don’t realize it.

    The problem is that Islam as a whole is against us, the West. It is their ideology that is the danger… an ideology that comes right out of the Koran. And we do know where this started,.. with the Taliban which was inspired by previous Islamic fanatics. And we know which government they controlled. Now look at the situation. The Taliban is on the rise. They have not been defeated, and instead they are gaining more islamofascist followers.

    We are involved in vectored warfare. A new World War where no governments lay claim… But we do know where it started, and Afghanistan-Pakistan are to blame.

    Musharraf, what has he done?

    Given the tribal areas of his country autonomy… simply because he cannot control them. And what has this done, it has emboldened the islomofascists there, and now the whole nation is in crisis.

    Musharraf has walked the fence and as waffled between the so called Islamic moderates and the very real islamofascists that now are attempting to take over his country.

    What will that mean for us…

    Big trouble…

    If it turns to the hard line, we will have a very difficult time fighting the War on Terror in Afghanistan, and everywhere in the world where islamofascists raise their ugly heads.

    Moderates… Where? Who are they? Are they willing to take a public stand? Are they willing to approach their mullahs and demand moderation as their mullahs speak of hate and death to the West and Israel?

    The UK is infested with Islamic radical mullahs, and they are a big problem there, as they are throughout Europe.

    It is very unfortunate at this time that we are still fighting the Crusades… at least that is what the Islamofascists think. They imposed this war on us, not we on them.

    The only “conversion” I can think of is converting the survivors of this war to hate war so much that they will not in the next thousand years ever engage in it.

    Our world, our small planet has enough problems without having to engage in their medieval war now.

    Callforjustice911.

    P.S. Islam does not advocate the worship of idols… Well what about that rock in Mecca with the silver vigina framing it? The Kabba? They swirl around it in reverance, and kiss a stone. And five times a day all devoted islamofascists and all devotees of Islam world wide, face toward it 5 times a day to offer prayers… And at least once in their lifetimes they are required to visit it.

    Tell me that is not idol worship?

  108. Tell me that is not idol worship?

    No it is not. Your ignorance (not only your words) is quite offensive.

  109. iih (aka Ali) | November 30, 2007, 7:59pm | wrote:#

    Tell me that is not idol worship?

    No it is not. Your ignorance (not only your words) is quite offensive.”

    Ok Mr. aka Ali…

    Since you seem to embrace this satanic inspired faith called Islam.

    Explain to us Kuffars (infidells) and ignroant ones, why that rock framed by a silver vigina over in Mecca enshrined in a huge stone building draped in black is not an idol?

    Looks like an idol for your people swirl around it.
    Looks like an idol when your people pray to it.
    Looks like an idol when your people kiss it.
    Looks like an ido when your peopel are requried once in their lifetimes to visit and do all of the above to get to thier so called Islamc heaven..

    An old saying applies here.

    “looks like a duck, clacks like a duck, walks like a duck… is a duck”

    You Islamics criticise Christians for having statues or kiss the toe of a statue of a Pope, and have icons of the risen Christ…

    But you Islamics have your idols, too…
    One of which is a revered black rock in Mecca that is an instrument of your so called “worship” …

    And that is what idoltry is pal…
    .

    Callforjustice911

  110. Looks like an idol for your people swirl around it.
    Looks like an idol when your people pray to it.
    Looks like an idol when your people kiss it.
    Looks like an ido when your peopel are requried once in their lifetimes to visit and do all of the above to get to thier so called Islamc heaven..

    Yes, I agree with your statements. The keyword is that it “looks like”. What may “look like” something may not be anything.

    P.S. Just defended a Christian on the weekend thread. I respect every man and woman of spirituality even if atheist. Yes, atheists can be spiritual without believing. Christians can be spiritual, but many “Christians” are a pain in the neck when they become dogmatic. Same with many Muslims, I dislike them when they become dogmatic, too.

  111. ala ali wrote after me:

    “Looks like an idol for your people swirl around it.
    Looks like an idol when your people pray to it.
    Looks like an idol when your people kiss it.
    Looks like an ido when your people are requiied once in their lifetimes to visit and do all of the above to get to their so called Islamic heaven..

    “Yes, I agree with your statements. The keyword is that it “looks like”. What may “look like” something may not be anything.”

    OH what does that mean? You did not answer my question with that answer. To me as the old saying says “looks like a duck…. IS a duck” !!!

    IS is what it is about.

    The fact that Islamics revere this rock in such a way PROVES by definition (Websters) that it IS an IDOL…

    That rock can be nothing else.

    And Islam chastises us Kuffar (infidel) for idol worship when their religious law make such requirements for reverence of a rock in Mecca?

    Come on…

    Take the mote out of your eye before you take the splinter out of another’s eye.

    That rock in Mecca is an idol by definition and practice.

    Websters: IDOL

    1: a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god
    2 a: a likeness of something obsolete : pretender, impostor
    3: a form or appearance visible but without substance
    4: an object of extreme devotion; also : ideal 25: a false conception : fallacy

    That idol rock in Mecca fits that definition to the par.

    And by the way, even the very name of Muhammad is an idol to those in the Islamic faith if one is put to death for even defiling that name such as the teacher in Sudan that allowed her students to name a teddy bear “Muhammed”. Western Civilization got over that problem in Christianity nearly 400 years ago. Now there are some who will even have a crucifix with Jesus on it in a buck of piss and make an art photo out of it. Oh… Christians are outraged… But you will not see us put the artist to death…

    You Islamics need to get your brains out of the Middle Ages, get a grip on the promise of this century rather than turn your backs on its promise.

    Callforjustice911

  112. I always laugh at the discussions over what is “true” Islam and what isn’t. Certainly it comes down to personal bias, especially for those who have vested interest in protecting the image of Islam.

    The reality is, like the Bible, the text is predominantly left up to personal interpretation. Islam can be peaceful and ignorant, or it can be cruel, and ignorant.

    This is why there is so much debate surrounding the moderates, and extremists in any religion.

    So, when a person says that Islam is a religion of peace, and someone else says that is a backwards peace of fascist bullshit, they’re both right.

    It all depends on who is holding the chips at that particular time in history.

    Unfortunately, the extremists have most of the chips right now, and the moderates are either unwilling, or incapable of speaking out against them en masse.

    I’m not so much concerned about making every Muslim out to be a raving psychopath as I am about acknowledging that the Muslim world as whole has a terrible human rights record, and absolute disinterest in civil liberties.

    Since I believe that human rights are not relative, and that they should be held in high regard around the world, criticism for the acceptance of a holy book as a guiding light for social policy is simply repellent to me.

    Now, I’ll let you guys get back to working out what a shitty piece of archaic literature really means.

  113. Explain to us Kuffars (infidells) and ignroant ones, why that rock framed by a silver vigina over in Mecca enshrined in a huge stone building draped in black is not an idol?

    Well, I have to admit this Kuffar was very disturbed by the paintings of this black-draped rock, on velvet, with spinning hypnotic fiber optic illumination, that were for sale by the ferry depot in Istanbul.

Please to post comments

Comments are closed.