Crown Heights, France; Caracas, Bolivia

Rioting erupted last night in the "crime-ridden" French district of Villiers-le-Bel, located some 20 miles from Paris, after a police car collided with a stolen moped piloted by a local teenager, killing him and his passenger. What seemed initially to be an unfortunate accident—witnesses said the boys were travelling "'at very high speed' when it cut across the path of the police car"—ended in Yankel Rosenbaum territory, with rioting locals torching cars and hurling Molotov cocktails at police responding to the call. The BBC has more:

Police said 21 officers were injured in the rioting in the northern suburbs of Villiers-le-Bel and Arnouville. A prosecutor has ordered an internal police inquiry into possible manslaughter and "non-assistance to persons in danger". The violence - reminiscent of riots in 2005 - lasted for more than six hours.

[…]

A brother of one of the dead teenagers, Omar Sehhouli, said the rioting "was not violence but an expression of rage".

In Bolivia's political capital of Sucre, protesters rioted after allies of President Evo Morales, in a nod to the December 2 vote in Caracas, passed a preliminary bill through parliament that would undo constitutional limits on presidential re-election. It still must be approved by referendum, which a Morales spokesman said is forthcoming, though declined to give a specific date. From Bloomberg:

Two anti- government demonstrators and a police officer were killed in the past two days, Efe said, adding that calm was restored after the police yesterday withdrew from Sucre's streets.

The riots began Nov. 24, when members of the government- controlled assembly barred opposition delegates and passed the draft version without having read its content, Efe said. One protester remains in a coma and several others suffered serious injuries, Efe said, citing medical reports.

Earlier today, United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement expressing concern over the state of democracy and human rights in Bolivia.

Comments

[Hugh Akston]

A brother of one of the dead teenagers, Omar Sehhouli, said the rioting "was not violence but an expression of rage".

I'm not that familiar with continental philosophy, but when did those two become mutually exclusive?

[TLB]

Meanwhile, in VZ, talk of revolution in the U.S. was in the air at a confab attended by AmirBaraka, WardChurchill, and members of "ImmigrantsRightsGroups".

In fact, the leader of one such group (not yet linked to by Reason AFAIK) said the road to "empowerment" is organizing Latinos to vote. "What does a revolutionary do in the U.S. today?" asked Gonzalez. "Take power wherever you can" by electing Latinos to city, state, and federal offices. (That group is/was funded by the FordFoundation and is frequently presented by the MSM as mainstream).

Forward to the libertarian future, comrades!

[de stijl]

Sinead O'Connor doing Black Boys on Mopeds.

[J sub D]

Earlier today, United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement expressing concern over the state of democracy and human rights in Bolivia.

That will definitely help things out a lot. Nothing makes dictator wannabes sit up and take notice like a UN Secretary-General statement expressing concern. Maybe he should send it to Venezuela instead, I hear word of a toilet paper shortage there.

[Jonathan Blanks]

Omar Sehhouli said the rioting "was not violence but an expression of rage".

I would like to think there was something lost in translation in this statement -- but it is inanity such as this which blithely assigns some sort of justifiable social significance to wanton violence.

Perhaps we should revisit our own history and refer to lynch mobs as 'cathartic community rage releases.'

[Eric Dondero]

Were they "Muslim Youth" by any chance?

[Cesar]

Lets see--we've got TLB and Dondero already. All we need is Grand Chalupa, the Lemur, and URKOBOLD and the thread will be complete.

[Taktix?]

AmirBaraka, WardChurchill, and members of "ImmigrantsRightsGroups".

Not to feel LoneWhackOff, but this looks to be the most boring conference I could ever imagine. Why not throw Ben Stein in too, just for good measure...

[stuartl]

"Take power wherever you can" by electing Latinos to city, state, and federal offices.

Because voting and rioting are exactly the same thing.

Oh, I get it! Both are being done by brown people.

[Pro Libertate]

Every time I see the name "Ban Ki-moon", I read it as "Bark at the Moon." Huh.

[Guy Montag]

Seems car burning season came a little earlier to the Continent than I was expecting. How long before it crosses the channel?

[capelza]

Forgive my ignorance, but aren't the words "moped" and "at very high speed" mutually exclusive?

[Guy Montag]

Forgive my ignorance, but aren't the words "moped" and "at very high speed" mutually exclusive?

Not to the Segway loving classes.

[Edward]

See, that's why Ron Paul wants to keep immigrants out of here, especially gay Latinos who will want to adopt children. We can't very well be a robust Christian nation with that sort of thing going on. Stick to libertarian principles and support Ron Paul. Stormfront does.

[Jerry]

@capelza
In Europe they're not. Illegal exhausts, etc. etc.

[Guy Montag]

Edward,

So, how do we build the southern border moat? Is RP going to use thermonuclear weapons and can we start the Pacific end in San Francisco?

What is the status of the genetically-modified sharks with death rays on their heads?

[Edward]

Birthright citizenship similarly rewards lawbreaking, and must be stopped. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the perverse incentive to sneak into this country remains strong. Citizenship involves more than the mere location of one's birth. True citizenship requires cultural connections and an allegiance to the United States. Americans are happy to welcome those who wish to come here and build a better life for themselves, but we rightfully expect immigrants to show loyalty and attempt to assimilate themselves culturally. Birthright citizenship sometimes confers the benefits of being American on people who do not truly embrace America.--Ron Paul "The Immigration Question" http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul314.html

[SugarFree]

Seriously, don't purge in in your webfilters... disemvowel him. It's pure poetry:

dwrd | Nvmbr 26, 2007, 4:13pm | #
S, tht's why Rn Pl wnts t kp mmgrnts t f hr, spclly gy Ltns wh wll wnt t dpt chldrn. W cn't vry wll b rbst Chrstn ntn wth tht srt f thng gng n. Stck t lbrtrn prncpls nd spprt Rn Pl. Strmfrnt ds.

Wikipedia has a few useful links to plug-ins.

[Joshua Holmes]

Were they "Muslim Youth" by any chance?

From the founder of Mainstream Libertarians for Identity Politics.

[Edward]

The Libertarian Party has long recognized the importance of allowing free and open immigration, understanding that this leads to a growing and more prosperous America. We condemn the xenophobic immigrant bashing that would build a wall around the United States.--Michael Tanner "The Benefits of open Immigration" http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.shtml

[mediageek]

Lonewhacko, Dondero, and Edward.

Man, it's getting so there's more trolls on this forum than real people!

[Edward]

Real people toe the party line!

[Taktix?]

Edward,

1: Big-L Libertarian does not equal small-l libertarian, and...

2: Fuck off.

[Edward]

Taktix

1. Xenphobia does not equal either big-l or small-l libertarian

2. Go fuck yourself, moron.

[mediageek]

Real people toe the party line!

Your mom toes my party line. If you know what I mean.

[Geoff Nathan]

I would like to think there was something lost in translation in this statement -- but it is inanity such as this which blithely assigns some sort of justifiable social significance to wanton violence.
Sigh. Just found the original quote, and alas, there's nothing lost in the translation not even some accent marks:
"ce n'est pas de la violence, c'est de la rage qui s'exprime".

[Edward]

I meant xenophobia. I leave my own vowels out.

[Edward]

Ron Paul is a fucking xenophobe. So why are libertarians peeing their pants over this guy again?

[J sub D]

2. Go fuck yourself, moron.

Tsk, Tsk. Temper, temper. What's the matter, Edward? Did they run out of Zoloft at the free clinic again?

[Jerry]

@Edward
Open borders give an unlimited supply of lower class bums which then will get exploited by the Democrats, creating even more of said bums.

[dangerman]

Careful Taktix, edward may take his vowels and never some back if we don't treat him with respect.

[Episiarch]

Xenphobia does not equal either big-l or small-l libertarian

What does Xen fear have to do with libertarians, Ed-moron? Or maybe your real name is Gordon Freeman?

[J sub D]

edward may take his vowels and never some back if we don't treat him with respect.

I think Edweird gets all the respect he deserves. Isn't that right, Eddie?

[crimethink]

mediageek,

Maybe Reason is adopting a flypaper strategy towards the troll problem. I personally advocate a Troll Motel solution, preferably with viewing windows so that the regular posters can watch them being beaten with their detached appendages.

Keep in mind, I'm not advocating violence, just an expression of rage.

[Guy Montag]

J s D,

Great, just GREAT! You asked for that other guy beginning with j on the other thread, now we have the E guy over here.

Great . . .

[Edward]

J sub D

What do you think of Ron Paul's views on immigration. You do think sometimes, don't you?

[Edward]

Ron Paul" voting record on immigration:

Keep rule barring immigrants from running for president. (May 2007)
Voted YES on building a fence along the Mexican border. (Sep 2006)
Voted YES on preventing tipping off Mexicans about Minuteman Project. (Jun 2006)
Voted YES on reporting illegal aliens who receive hospital treatment. (May 2004)
Voted YES on extending Immigrant Residency rules. (May 2001)
Voted YES on more immigrant visas for skilled workers. (Sep 1998)

[J sub D]

What do you think of Ron Paul's views on immigration. You do think sometimes, don't you?

Edward, I disagree with them. But I've never agreed with any candidate on every issue. I suspect those claim to either lie or are mentally ill. You can relate to the whole mentally ill thing, right?

[Cesar]

Edward

Voted YES on pimping his mom

Voted YES on taint withering

Voted YES on being a douchebag

[Edward]

Trolls speak the truth and muck up mindless sloganeering with uncomfortable facts.

[Edward]

Cesar,

Such wit! Right off the top, I'll bet.

[J sub D]

BTW Eddie, WTF does Ron Paul's immigration stance have to do with Bolivia, Venezuela or France? Oh that's right, you're to "challenged" to stay on topic.

[mediageek]

Crimethink-

You may very well be on to something.

[Cesar]

Why aren't you busy crashing sites, Eddie?

[dangerman]

Ron Paul" voting record on immigration:

Keep rule barring immigrants from running for president. (May 2007)
Voted YES on building a fence along the Mexican border. (Sep 2006)
Voted YES on preventing tipping off Mexicans about Minuteman Project. (Jun 2006)
Voted YES on reporting illegal aliens who receive hospital treatment. (May 2004)
Voted YES on extending Immigrant Residency rules. (May 2001)
Voted YES on more immigrant visas for skilled workers. (Sep 1998)

I don't have a problem with this at all. So there.

[mediageek]

Trolls speak the truth and muck up mindless sloganeering with uncomfortable facts.

Or they show up on various internet discussion forums in order to make asses of themselves and do their level best to distract everyone from what would otherwise be a decent discussion.

po-tay-to, po-tah-to

[J sub D]

And Edward, you don't have the wit or the language skills to get in a pissing contest with me. Say something insulting and feel good about having the last word.

Reasonoids, I apologize for feeding the troll. I'll say ten Our Fathers and ten Hail Marys for penance.

[mediageek]

JsD-

No worries. Watching you hit Edward is really quite amusing.

Think he'll go whine about it on his myspace page?

[Taktix?]

Keep rule barring immigrants from running for president. (May 2007)

Agreed (in light of the Governator)

Voted YES on building a fence along the Mexican border. (Sep 2006)

Disagree. Fair enough...

Voted YES on preventing tipping off Mexicans about Minuteman Project. (Jun 2006)

Agreed. The government shouldn't spend one red cent informing foreign nationals about a bunch of rednecks with too much time on their hands.

Voted YES on reporting illegal aliens who receive hospital treatment. (May 2004)

Agreed. Government shouldn't be paying for anyone's medical care, ideally.

Voted YES on extending Immigrant Residency rules. (May 2001)

Don't really care.

Voted YES on more immigrant visas for skilled workers. (Sep 1998)

Agreed. More visas are better than less, although, ideally, no limits should be in place at all...

[mediageek]

Does that really matter?

I mean, it's not like Edward's a libertarian who's just off-put by Paul's stance on immigration.

If it wasn't this, it would be something else.

[R C Dean]

So, how do we build the southern border moat?

Already got it here in Texas. Called the "Rio Grande." Doesn't seem to do much.

A little more seriously, this is what immigration combined with a welfare state and divorced from assimilation gets you.

I'm all for more immigration, provided we push assimilation as hard as humanly possible and do everything we can to minimize public benefits for non-citizens.

[Cesar]

I'm all for more immigration, provided we push assimilation as hard as humanly possible and do everything we can to minimize public benefits for non-citizens.

Popular culture takes care of a good deal of the assimilation part, at least for their children. Agreed about minimizing public benefits.

[J sub D]

Think he'll go whine about it on his myspace page?

If he had a MySpace page I would not be surprised. Not a bit.

[Cesar]

If he had a MySpace page I would not be surprised. Not a bit.

He seems more like a Live Journal type.

[Pro Libertate]

I seem to recall that Friedman opposed open borders so long as the welfare state continued to exist. That's a principled enough position against illegal immigration from a libertarian. I'm rather ambivalent about the issue, myself.

However, I do oppose Nazis. Especially Illinois Nazis, whom I hate.

[zig zag man]

"Real people toe the party line!"

You know who else had toes? The Nazis had toes, for the Jews to wear.

[JW]

I'm all for more immigration, provided we push assimilation as hard as humanly possible and do everything we can to minimize public benefits for non-citizens.

How do you do that? Tear up every bi-lingual sign at the 7-11?

RC, I'm neck deep in latinos in my neighborhood and I'm seeing the 2nd generation assimilation at my kid's elementary schools. From what I've read, it's usually by the 3rd or 4th generation you get full assimilation, but hey, it's only my anecdote.

Don't even try with the 1st gen, but you can always hope.

[Pro Libertate]

We can speak Spanish and eat Chinese food for all I care, so long as we retain (classical) liberal political and economic systems.

[Paul]

"was not violence but an expression of rage".

Uhm, ok. I'm putting that one in the can for later use. I'm quite sure it'll come in handy if I ever have one of my temper incidents.

[Guy Montag]

RCD,

Already got it here in Texas. Called the "Rio Grande." Doesn't seem to do much.

But where are the freaking sharks with lasers?

[Tacos mmm...]

I'm all for more immigration, provided we push assimilation as hard as humanly possible and do everything we can to minimize public benefits for non-citizens.

I take issue with denying benefits to taxpayers regardless of citizenship status. It seems to me if you're here on a green card, your kids should still be allowed to attend public schools. What are the public sector benefits beyond schooling, library cards and "free" emergency medical care that we offer to non-citizens? Medicaid and medicare are already citizen-only.

[J sub D]

But where are the freaking sharks with lasers?

Guy, Here is the problem.

[Guy Montag]

I take issue with denying benefits to taxpayers regardless of citizenship status.

Are you including teriffs?

[Guy Montag]

JsD,

Some union is blocking my sharks with lasers?

[J sub D]

Some union is blocking my sharks with lasers?

Your sharks JOINED the union. They have union shark work rules now. Plus they've already complained to OSHA about the ergonomic shortcomings of your snout mounted laser targeting system. See you at arbitration.

[JBinMO]

How about gators?

[M]

I puzzled over the violence/rage distinction for as long as it took me to read the thread, while guiltily enjoying the troll ping-pong (laughter aids digestion).

Conclusion re the former: a upset speaker failed to use sufficient care selecting words, perhaps unaware that his ejaculation would be immortalized. Actually, that could apply to certain portions of the latter phenomenon as well.

My guess is that to the distinguisher/non-differentiator, violence connotes (vs. actually denoting) illegality, and rage appears either value-neutral or a wholesome response to social oppression. Result of tendentious private conflations: incoherence.

Also, the spokesperson may simply not have been educated enough to know the difference between the concepts.

In any event, further research is warranted. [Not - so please resume paying the trolls.]

[M]

an upset speaker, even

[Edward]

Gosh, I feel so unwelcome here. Will that change when Ron Paul goes down in crushing defeat in the primaries? I'm mean I can see why Ron Paul's "robust Christian nation" shit and nativist anti-immigrant rhetoric appeal to Nazis and nutjobs, but he's really not much of a libertarian, is he? I think you guys are just unwilling to face facts about a candidate you were pinning so many hopes on. So you were wrong. Big deal. I just hope that when this is over, we can be friends.

[Syloson of Samos]

Moynihan,

Actually, I think it was a dirt bike.

[Sino-Russian Edward]

God, I feel very unwelcome. Will this change, Ron Paul failure crushing defeat in the primaries? I mean, I can understand why Ron Paul "rigid Christian country" shit of the nativist and anti-immigrant statements appeal to the Nazi nutjobs, but it is very free, he? I think you guys just do not want to face this fact, a candidate, you put so much hope. Then you wrong. Principal transactions. I only hope that when this is over, we can become friends.

[Syloson of Samos]

According to these polls it appears that Paul is polling on average around 5% in the national polls.

[Tacos mmm...]

Will that change when Ron Paul goes down in crushing defeat in the primaries?

No one in the real world expects Paul to win. The hope is that by showing him support, we will demonstrate that libertarian ideas have some political traction, and induce the two major parties to become slightly more libertarian in their leanings to attract the Paul voting block. If you can't figure this out then you're dumber than the average troll.

[Edward]

Tacos mmm

For sure Ron Paul won't win (5% in national polls. Wow!) But by supporting him, you're ensuring that libertarians are linked with all the loons and nutjobs who have latched onto him (which seems to be just fine with him), further marginalizing and misrepresenting libertarian ideas. What an accomplishment!

[Edward]

Do libertarians believe that the Founding Fathers envisioned a "robust Christian nation"?
Ron Paul does.
Do libertarians believe that gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt children?
Ron Paul does.
Do libertarians believe that we should build a fence on the Mexican border and do our best to keep immigration at a minimum because immigrants tend to be disloyal?
Ron Paul does.

[Guy Montag]

Your sharks JOINED the union. They have union shark work rules now. Plus they've already complained to OSHA about the ergonomic shortcomings of your snout mounted laser targeting system. See you at arbitration.

This sounds like a trick to make me join the Ron Paul camp and reduce union bargaining power to that of anybody else, with the stroke of his IRS abolishing pen!

JBinMO,

How about gators?

Leave Florida out of this. The USCG is handling their moat just fine.

[Guy Montag]

Do libertarians believe that we should build a fence on the Mexican and both Canadian borders with death rays and landmines and do our best to keep immigration at a minimum because we need to know who is getting in and out, with no limits on visas?

Guy Montag does!

[R C Dean]

I take issue with denying benefits to taxpayers regardless of citizenship status. It seems to me if you're here on a green card, your kids should still be allowed to attend public schools.

Sure, I'll go along with that.

What are the public sector benefits beyond schooling, library cards and "free" emergency medical care that we offer to non-citizens? Medicaid and medicare are already citizen-only.

That assumes you can tell the citizens from the illegals. Hardly anybody here illegally doesn't have fake ID.

[R C Dean]

Clicked too soon.

If you limited schools and any other form of public assistance to legal residents, I'd be cool with that.

Of course, that begs the question of how you tell if someone is a legal resident or not.

[Mike Laursen]

so why are libertarians peeing their pants over this guy again?

I don't support Ron Paul precisely because of his immigration and birthright citizenship stances. And I'm sure there are more libertarians just like me.

Having said that, you seem to have lost all perspective if you think Ron Paul is somehow going to ruin the libertarian movement. On the whole he's been a great spokesman for liberty.

[Guy Montag]

so why are libertarians peeing their pants over this guy again?

I don't believe that urine is the fluid that is in play here.

[Edward]

"I don't support Ron Paul precisely because of his immigration and birthright citizenship stances. And I'm sure there are more libertarians just like me."

Well, that's a relief. I was beginning to think all libertarians were nuts. You should get the word out: Libertarians aren't Nazis and nutjobs.

[Mike Laursen]

Libertarians aren't Nazis and often are not nutjobs. There. Done. 🙂

[atrevete]

For Edward, Ron Paul is THE Cosmic Question. Nothing else is important.

Down with Ron Paul! Libertarians are crazy! They must be crushed!

[Edward]

Who said anything about libertarians being crushed? Committed maybe. But you tell me-- from a libertarian perspective, what's so exciting about a Christian nationalist xenophobe who can't rise above 5% in the polls?

[clever libertarian islamophobe]

Were they "Muslim Youth" by any chance?

Inquiring minds want to know, because there is nothing more authentically Mainstream American Libertarian than laying the groundwork for a religion-based pogrom in a foreign country.

[R C Dean]

Reasonoids, I apologize for feeding the troll. I'll say ten Our Fathers and ten Hail Marys for penance.

The libertarian catechism is to say ten Founding Fathers.

[Mike Laursen]

But you tell me-- from a libertarian perspective, what's so exciting about a Christian nationalist xenophobe who can't rise above 5% in the polls?

I'm not even a Ron Paul supporter, but I can answer that. First, 5% is better than any other libertarian has done. Second, he's spoken out in very eloquent terms against the war in Iraq, warrant-free surveillance, the drug war, the IRS, and soft money.

[Edward]

First, 5% is better than any other libertarian has done.

But Ron Paul is running as a Republican, not as a libertarian. At this point, probably as many voters know he takes Nazi money as know he claims to be a libertarian. Among those attracted to him for his anti-war position are wackos from every corner of the tin-foil hat crowd, most of whom don't know libertarianism from shinola. He's a garden-variety nativist conservative on immigration and a typical fundamentalist Christian on gay rights, so he's not a bellwether for libertarian ideas on those fronts. He has no chance of winnng and won't advance libertarianism an inch.

[Tacos mmm...]

That assumes you can tell the citizens from the illegals. Hardly anybody here illegally doesn't have fake ID.

You need a bit more than a fake driver's license to qualify for Medicare. Hell, I'm a citizen and I don't qualify. Seriously again, where is all this taxpayer money that immigrants are supposedly leaching coming from? Through what programs?

[Tacos mmm...]

For sure Ron Paul won't win (5% in national polls. Wow!) But by supporting him, you're ensuring that libertarians are linked with all the loons and nutjobs who have latched onto him (which seems to be just fine with him), further marginalizing and misrepresenting libertarian ideas. What an accomplishment!

I think that the Libertarian party has already done an excellent job of making libertarians look like nutcases. In terms of Ron Paul taking Nazi money, that's fine with me. They'd be giving it to Guiliani otherwise.

[joe]

RC Dean writes,

A little more seriously, this is what immigration combined with a welfare state and divorced from assimilation gets you.

But you see, France "pushes assimilation" as hard as any society on earth. What would you have us do, RC - ban headscarves, require Engish classes, proclaim a national language and require all public business to be conducted in it? They already do all of those things to "push assimilation as hard as possible" in France, and in case you haven't noticed, it's made the problem worse.

Forcing people to choose between losing their heritage and being a member of mainstream society, like the French do, is bad policy. If you allow people to inhabit an in-between space, it puts people on a bridge, instead of encouraging them to barricade themselves off from the rest of society.

[joe]

RC,

You are so concerned about the effect of poor, unassimilated immigrants that you propose to...forbid their children from attending public school.

Do you see the problem here?

[Mike Laursen]

But Ron Paul is running as a Republican, not as a libertarian.

I assume you meant Libertarian with a capital L. Regardless, I was talking about his doing better than previous libertarians, with a small L, of whatever party affiliation.

At this point, probably as many voters know he takes Nazi money as know he claims to be a libertarian. ... He has no chance of winnng and won't advance libertarianism an inch.

So, he's not well known and he isn't particularly known as a libertarian, so he won't do too much damage to public perception of libertarians. Isn't this a good thing from your perspective?