The Friday Political Thread: Diamonds and Pearls Edition

This week wasn't lacking for political news; indeed, I don't have time to include it all here. So here's the political open thread with a first burst of links, to be updated later in the weekend.

The week in brief…

- The Democrats debated again in one of the stupider circuses thus far: A hollering crowd, silly questions, and a melting Bill Richardson. (Who the hell lit the place?)

- The House passed, by a veto-proof margin, a bill that will put the onus on lenders not to let people buy mortgages they can't afford.

- Tom Tancredo got what will be his last burst of attention, failing a miracle showing in Iowa, with a spine-tingling/ridiculous ad about Mexicans nuking your local mall. Ben Adler asks why Tancredo's gone nowhere in the Republican race.

Larger issues…

- Anti-Paulism. When Ron Paul gets a burst of positive attention, a flurry of negative stories come hurtling. A few months ago it was his support from Alex Jones and 9/11 conspiracy theorists; this week it was his support from Don Black and other white supremacists. The scandal boiled down: Paul is supported by white supremacist sites, he's received money from some of the big ones, and he refuses to denounce them or return the cash.

In the more rarefied circles of political journalism, this is a fairly big story: One reporter asked me how much of Paul's 11/5 money was from racists, as if most of it was. (I personally know two journalists working on "Paul's fascist ties"-type stories.) In the larger media, it's nowhere: The campaign reporters who care about Paul are still focusing on his fundraising and surprisingly huge rallies, not digging much deeper. But they're going to start digging eventually. The Anti-Defamation League (relying in part on my reporting) is mulling over what to do with Paul. Say what you want about Abe Foxman, but he knows how to turn the media onto a story.

Should Paul be held responsible for the people who support him? That's an impossible standard, and especially difficult for a candidate who's attracted voters from all over the right-wing fringescape. But should he disclaim and denounce support from racists? Yes. Without even being asked, he should.

- Fredpocalypse Now. Conventional wisdom: Mike Huckabee's low-budget poll surge is stripping away the rationale for Fred Thompson's campaign, and his fall in the polls will continue apace. Bold, ahead-of-the-curve prediction: Thompson's Ron Paul-style, grassroots-driven fundraising day will deepen this storyline. Why? It's scheduled for the day before Thanksgiving. The rationale, apparently:

This effort is to give Senator Thompson the Thanksgiving Present he deserves.

OK, hands up: Who gives "Thanksgiving presents"? Who, instead, travels on the day before Thanksgiving? Who, when they go online with their credit cards that week, will be thinking about presidential politics versus the Amazon.com and Target.com and RealDoll.com pre-Christmas sales? The Paulites' fundraising dates of 11/5 and 12/16 have come in for some mockery (including from one AEI scholar who demanded Paul return the 11/5 money, since Guy Fawkes was basically a limey bin Laden), but they've proven successful (so far) because they had an ideological, movement-oriented resonance. A "Thanksgiving present"? That's cult-of-personality politics in the service of a candidate whose cult is definitely dwindling.

Below the fold…

- Ana Marie Cox on why John McCain must win New Hampshire, scratching her head at why his campaign doesn't get this.

- Jeremy Lott on why 9/11 is the new Antietam.

- Shawn Macomber reports from the Nevada debate. It's worse than you saw on TV.

- Ramesh Ponnuru announces a winner in the pundit primary.

And for Politics and Prog… I've been resisting an Emerson, Lake and Palmer link with all my might, but the Poteet High School Percussion Ensemble has made my stubborness impossible to maintain.

Comments

[VM]

I've been resisting an Emerson, Lake and Palmer link with all my might, but the Poteet High School Percussion Ensemble has made my stubborness impossible to maintain.

DAMN YOU, WEIGAL (sic). 🙂

[Kenny]

one of the stupider circuses

A debate in the main area of Circus Circus complete with the trapezee artists would have been pretty interesting.

[Edward]

No Ron Paul/Nazi news?

[Mike Laursen]

Hmm, if you funked up that opening a little (OK, a lot, a whole lot), you'd have "Shaft"!

[Sam Grove]

That was fun.
Here you can see my daughter (4) Alexis performing with her Barbie karaoke guitar.\
Don't know where she got her moves.

[J sub D]

Hi, I Edward. Ron Paul won't win, He's a nazi, you idiots.

Hello, I'm Eric Dondero, Ron Paul is a racist and only Rudy Guiliani can protect us from the muslim terrorists.

There ya go guys, your dumb shits in the thread. Take the weekend off.

[Edward]

Okay here's an interesting exercise.

Google "Ron Paul is a Nazi"--Don't forget the quotes. You get 3,030 hits

Then Google "Hillary Clinton is a Nazi." You get five hits.

I haven't tried it with other candidates.

[J sub D]

Sam Grove, On the cute scale, that's a solid 9.9. Minimum.

[Edward]

"Tom Tancredo is a Nazi" gets only two hits.

[J sub D]

Check this out. 1,480,000 hits for edward is a homo.

[Seamus]

J sub D wins...

In other news, I tripped my balls off at the last Ponnuru festival I went to.

[rho]

49,800 hits.

[Edward]

Man, you guys don't get it. do you. It's all about perception. Ron Paul has got to do something to overcome this Nazi connection, e.g., givr the Nazi money back.

"This Ron Paul is kind of interesting. He's a Republican who wants to get us out of Iraq.'

"Yeah, but I've heard he's a Nazi"

"What?!!"

"Yeah, Nazis have given him money."

"But surely he gave it back."

"No. He's keeping it"

"Jesus Christ, Ron Paul must be a Nazi then."

"Yeah, That's what I've heard."

[Edward]

"Rudy Giuliani is a Nazi" 0 hits

[Spicegurl]

So, I guess the Nazis will get us out of Iraq.

Whatever it takes!

[stoneymonster]

Rudy Giuliani is a Nazi

"Giuliani is a nazi" == 7 hits.

[Spicegurl]

If Ron Paul gives money to the Nazis, that will help him "overcome his Nazi connection"?!?!?

"I heard Ron Paul gave money to the Nazis!"

"No %*#'n way!"

"Way!"

"Oh, bummas, man. Now I have to vote for Guiliani."

[Edward]

Give the money BACK to the Nazis. Idiot.

[Jim Walsh]

Thank you, thank you for reminding me how much ELP sucked...

[Eric Dondero]

Tried "Rudy Giuliani is a libertarian" = 3,320 hits.

[joe]

J-sub, that was truly awesome.

[Edward]

"Nazis love Ron Paul" 1,170 hits

[Pro Libertate]

All you base are belong to us - 1,070,000 hits. Hmmm.

[mitch]

ELP has inflicted some stinkers on the music-listening public, no doubt, but "Tarkus" (the album-length track) is so good I am willing to forgive all trespasses.

[Edward]

"Ron Paul" "Sieg heil" 10,600 hits

[Edward]

"Ron Paul" "White Power" 35,700 hits

[rocketship]

"Giuliani 9-11" got 1,910,000 hits. I guess the two are connected.

[J sub D]

Thank you, thank you for reminding me how much ELP sucked...

Philistine!

[gaijin]

Pete Rose 4,256 hits

[Kenny]

Jeremy Lott, author of "In Defense of Hypocrisy," is writing a book about the vice presidency.

As much as I like history, I anticipate that Mr Lott's next project is also worth as much as pitcher of warm spit.

[Kenny]

gajin-

*

[Edward]

"Ron Paul is a loon" 2,320 hits

"Tom Tancredo is a loon" 0 hits

[David E. Gallaher]

"A cockroach community recently had its collective mind changed-by a group of tiny robots. Certain animals engage in what's known as self-organization. Picture a school of fish or a flock of birds. Scientists have been researching autonomous robot systems based on this concept."

Details of above were just published in Science magazine.

The "secret" of democracy is knowing the strings to pull to influence human swarm behavior.
Karl doesn't have them exactly right yet.

[gaijin]

gajin-

*

LOL!

[joe]

Anyhoo, that was the first debate I watched in a long time. Good Lord, CNN is awful!

First question, right out of the chute - whaddya think, Iraq? Health care? Torture?

Naw, "Hillary, he said something mean about you. Are you going to take that?"

And then, when the candidates manage to segue into the merits of different health care plans, Wolf makes sure to interrupt and ask John Edwards, "What did you think about saying mean things about Hillary? Oh, don't worry, we'll get around to health care eventually."

And then, at the end, the talking heads are just aghast at how "things turned negative right away," and how "the candidates are more interested in sniping than serious policy."

Yeah, your liberal media at work.

[iih]

"Ron Paul is not a nazi" 6 hits...

by typing this here on H&R, it must now be 7 hits.

So here's what to do:

Go to every single blog you know of and just copy and paste this statement (preferably in some context). That will take of the problem.

Ah... and don't keep googling "R** P** i* a N***" as it will only increase its favorability in google.

[Edward]

Nobody mentioned the economy. Calm before the storm?

[iih]

The statement to paste is obviously "Ron Paul is not a nazi"

... and insert "care" where you see fit in my above comment.

[gaijin]

Speaking of Ron Paul, quite the slowdown in funds raised this week last time I checked...is everyone just saving up for the 12/16?

[J sub D]

Folks, if you've ever wondered happens when you breast feed a male child until age 5, potty train him using phallus shaped rewards and dress him as a little girl on weekends into his teen years, I give you Edward, the beslubbering, boil-brained, maggot-pie result of that type of child rearing.

In recognizing the likely insurmountable emotional difficulties he faces, perhaps we should temper our remarks.

[iih]

gaijin: I think it increased at a rate of 100k per day, except for only one day, last week.

[J sub D]

Pete Rose 4,256 hits

🙂 Got it. Still, no hall of fame for that guy. Mr B. Bonds, take notice.

[iih]

... the teaparty.com pledges are at 15,189. The slope is decreasing but the number are going up. So there is a slow down. But there are still 30 more days till 12/16.

[gaijin]

iih: I was looking at ronpaulgraphs.com and I thought he only took in $212K all week (so far)...I could have been looking at the graphs wrong, though.

[iih]

gaijin: I follow (not in any scientific way) the numbers on RP's campaign site. Unless my memory fails, the rate was about 100k everyday except one. But it has been a long and busy week, I might have been imaging stuff.

[iih]

J sub D:

These Pistons look like they have not picked much umph this time around... Boston looking great, though.

[Balloon Maker]

"purple monkey dishwasher" 61,900 hits.

wait, what's the point of this game again?

[TLB]

1. Weigel is lying above about the ad showing "Mexicans nuking your local mall". The shopping mall perp was masked, and the script made it clear that there are two types of people sneaking over the borders. (Of course, were Weigel intellectually honest he could discuss the rising numbers of Muslims in LatinAm as well a TerroristTraining camps there, but we'll be waiting a long time for that.)

2. In just about 50 words, BarackObama made at least five questionable statements. I discuss those at the link; you certainly won't see Weigel or anyone in the MSM discuss those issues.

3. The questions at the debate were pre-approved by CNN, and that includes one of the audience questions that contained a lie: lonewacko.com/blog/archives/007241.html
That lie ties into the Tancredo ad, but don't expect Weigel or the MSM to disclose how it was a lie.

4. Here's the antidote for any lingering prog-related symptoms: youtube.com/watch?v=h2E0to62aFY

[Lurker Jack]

speaking of RP

[Franklin Harris]

Google "Ron Paul is a Nazi"--Don't forget the quotes. You get 3,030 hits

Of course, 3,000 of those are Edward talking to himself.

[Franklin Harris]

Lone Wacko,

Here's a suggestion: If you're really that concerned about immigration, move to Mexico. They don't have many people wanting to get into the county down there.

[iih]

Lurker Jack: This is indeed impressive!

(And thanks for posting on my slowly developing blog.)

[iih]

Edward- Try this:

"Saddam is a good man" 5,360. Does this make him a good man?

[iih]

Oh, and I added "Does this make him a good man?" just in case Dondero walks into the thread and thinks I am saying Sadddam was a good man. Dondero: Just for the record, I do not think he was!

[rho]

Everybody should listen to SpEdward. He only has Ron Paul's best interests at heart.

[prolefeed]

I got 372,000 google hits for edward is a douchebag, but only 59,000 for edward is a turd sandwich. Can we assume, then, that he is more of a douchebag than a turd sandwich?

Man, did that post ever bite him in the arse!

[Jim Walsh]

"TLB is an idiot."

18,000 hits.

"TLP is Tancredo bitch"

195 hits.

Heh heh heh...

[Fluffy]

I generally oppose all bannings, but TLB should be IP banned until he agrees to FUCKINGSTOP PUTTINGFUCKING WORDSTOGETHER.

Just stop it.

[BakedPenguin]

I tripped my balls off at the last Ponnuru festival I went to.

Seamus, 5 hits.

[BakedPenguin]

...just in case Dondero walks into the thread and thinks I am saying Sadddam was a good man.

iih - I wouldn't worry about Dondero doing any thinking anytime soon.

[iih]

BakedPenguin- Have faith my friend, have faith.

[libertreee]

Hey jih--I like your posts--what is the new blog you have?

Promotion, man, promotion.

[rho]

134 hits.

[sage]

Hmm, a half-million hits:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=edward+wants+a+dirty+sanchez

[iih]

libertreee:

It is an experimental thing that I do on occasion since last month. My problem is that I can not commit. And given the topic of the blog, some people may find it, well, "outrageous". They tend to post aggressively (e.g., see first ever post I make there, or I can point you to really aggressive discussions right here on H&R) and it would be hard for me not to respond. But, you know, I have a demanding job, and can not afford to respond promptly to commenters or keep the blog constantly active. I have a whole list of articles in my "pending" list of posts, but do not find the time to clean them up for posting.

Also, there is a lot of weirdness associated with libertarians and thought not to include mine to the list 😉 But I will occasionally when I find the right time. I am planning may be 4 articles or so a month. Whenever I have something new, I will iniclude my URL in the URL box. I would generally not advertise though.

[Kolohe]

libertree-
You made the same mistake Indiana did, iih is spelled with an "eye".

[Kolohe]

has anyone seen an "e" around?

[iih]

kolohe:

🙂 that was funny, but like me, libertreee would probably not worry too much about the missing e in your comment as I would about missing an "eye".

I did not get the bit about "Indiana". What about Indiana?

[Rigoberto (Resident Libertaria]

727,000 for Hillary Clinton is a Fascist
376,000 for Rudy Giuliani is a Fascist
83,300 for Tom Tancredo is a Lunatic
264,000 for Tom Tancredo is a Racist

In Edwards world, if google says it, then it must be true. Do you have a contractors license for all those straw men you build?

[Kolohe]

iih
You ever see Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?

[Dr Henry Jones Sr.]

In the latin alphabet, jehovah is spelled with an 'i'

[crimethink]

This is fun...

"Ron Paul sex video" ~ 2,070,000 hits

[iih]

Kolohe-

Eons ago. Disliked it just like I disliked Lawrence of Arabia, the mummy, and all these crappy Hollywood movies. English patient was good. Syriana's portrayal of the gulf countries was superb.

But anyhow, please let me know about "Indiana".

[teh]

"you are wrong" - 1,320,000 hits

Well, that settles it then.

[iih]

Dr. Henry Jones Sr.-

A lot of "j"'s are spelled with an "eye" in many Eastern European languages, as well as Arabic and I think Hebrew. For example, "Joseph" in Arabic is "Yossef", "Jaboc" is "Yacob", etc.

[Kolohe]

iih-
A link for your consideration. Look at section 3.6.

[iih]

Hits to my blog increased by 10 since I shared the address with Libertreee 🙂

But seriously, the idea of my blog is really no joke. I would really like to put criticisms of both Islam (and its extreme followers) and libertarianism on the table for discussion. Ideally, I was hoping that Muslims would find and object to my propositions, and for libertarians, non-libertarian atheists, etc, open-minded theists, etc, to put their criticism of what I say too. My goal is to clear things up, especially the tons of misconceptions about both libertarianism and Islam.

I do not claim however that there is perfect overlap, for there isn't one.

Based on what I have read and heard from Walter Block, I think I would compare myself to him in the sense that I do think that he is, while not entirely religious, would not call himself an atheist. I have a similar position as Block in this regards. I respect Walter Block a ton.

Here is what is coming up on my blog within the next couple of weeks. I plan on commenting on Khaled Abou El-Fadl's argument that in Islam Human Rights Are Above God's Rights (gasp). I agree with him on the main premise of the argument (and the title), but in the article he sounds too Left-ish/socialist. Islam, I think, has both social aspects (as with any other religion), but an strong open market approach to many things in its outlook.

[Kolohe]

also,

Darth Vader:Luke Skywalker ::
Dr Henry Jones Sr::Indiana Jones

[iih]

Kolohe- Ah, I see... now it makes sense regarding "i" and "j".

[Seamus]

Baked P-

Ponnuru made me dose = 766 hits

[iih]

kolohe- I see that you have a persistent e problem on the "media" thread too 😉

[Ty]

Hitlery 102,000

[Kolohe]

A serious question for you iih, if you'd like to give it a moment:

In the christian tradition, I would say a lot of doctrinal differences arise because the original scripture was 1)not written down until at least one generation after Jesus's death and 2)written in a combo of Aramaic and Ancient Greek, converted to vulgate Latin, and then translated into early modern English or a number of Romance languages (and more recent versions gather from all these sources).
So you have a lot of ambiguity, because there can be valid disagreements on what was said then vs what is said now vs what was meant.

Now, and please correct me if anything here that is factually incorrect, the Koran was written down by Mohamed personally in his native language. Plus, what was written down in the 7th century CE is still able to be understood by modern speakers (unlike say Beowulf in its original form)

So, do you feel that any of the doctrinal disputes that exist in Islam have a similar source as Christianity as discussed above?

I bring it up because I noticed that your last link contains many parenthetical references to the actual text of the Koran in Arabic. Are translation errors (esp into english) a source of doctrinal disputes within the religous community? Or is it just the original text sometimes either vague and/or literary (i.e. could be metaphorical)

[iih]

Kolohe-

Firstly, let me just say that I am not at all a theologian or a scholar of religion. Anything I write here or on my blog (I should make this disclaimer there, I guess) is of the intellectual curiosity type of thing-- not rigorous by any means. With that said...

the Koran was written down by Mohamed personally in his native language.

The Quran itself was not written until the first/second caliph after Muhammed's death. The Arabs were superb in poetry and memorization (the language was mostly spoken, though the alphabet was most certainly in existence and used by some). Poetry was transmitted from generation to generation, some of the ones we have today are preserved from original form solely based on oral transmissions. So the companions of the prophet had no problem memorizing the Quran. With the spread of the religion to new lands with no mastery of the Arabic language nor memorization, the 2nd caliph Omar (or was it the first-- I can check) ordered the Quran collected in written form to preserve it in the newly acquired lands.

Plus, what was written down in the 7th century CE is still able to be understood by modern speakers

Pretty much yes. Classical Arabic does not change with time. Arabic is one of the most grammatically exact languages. It is very algebraic and algorithmic. It is also flexible. As in Hebrew (as far as I know), words come from basic 3 consonants. From these three consonants (called the root), one can make new words in a systematic ways (though many have been tried over the years and it would be hard to come with news ones).

In any case, classical Arabic is pretty much consistent and is neither rigidly maintained (for it has a lot of inherent flexibility), nor necessarily hard (for its grammar and vocabulary are "algorithmic"). I personally find it a beautiful language. Obviousl, I may be biased 😉

So, do you feel that any of the doctrinal disputes that exist in Islam have a similar source as Christianity as discussed above?

The dispute is not in the literal meaning of the words and commandments. The problem is when people take parts of the commandments and forget about the rest of it. Based on lectures I attended back in my homeland (no secret about it-- Egypt), treating the Quran as a legal document, there are portions that clearly say that (1) jihad (the "physical" one, not the "spiritual" one) can only be performed in self-defense (i.e., the non-agression principle holds, with the word Arabic word for "aggression" explicitly used), and (2) it has to be declared by a state and not individuals. The terrorists justify violating (1) by saying that this is self defense (forgetting that there are clear teachings against harming the bystanders), and byviolating (2) by assuming that they are the state, while actually they have not been chosen by the people (the first 4 caliphs were essentially elected by the people in a democatic process called "bay'a", btw).

So the problem seems to be in taking parts of the Quran and not integrating them with the rest of the text.

I bring it up because I noticed that your last link contains many parenthetical references to the actual text of the Koran in Arabic. Are translation errors (esp into english) a source of doctrinal disputes within the religous community?

Sometimes yes, but the problem lies in either taking things out of context or by not "seeing the big picture of the message of the Quran in its entirety".

For example, rarely do the extremists (and those on the extreme right in the West) quote two of the most famous verses about the right of choosing religion: "[And say] to you your religion, and to me mine [Islam]", and "There is no compulsion in religion".

Geee, sorry for the long comment. I did not realize how long it is until I previewed it 😐

[iih]

Oh, and this should be fun: Cato in Arabic! (The copyright at the bottom of the page is in arabic, but you can get there from Cato's English site. You can find a screen shot of the Arabic site at this Cato page.

[Steve Verdon]

The House passed, by a veto-proof margin, a bill that will put the onus on lenders not to let people buy mortgages they can't afford.

I can't tell if you are citing this in approval, if so how might statist of you.

[Aaron Brown]

> the Poteet High School Percussion Ensemble

Awesome clip!

TLB:

> Weigel is lying above about the ad showing "Mexicans
> nuking your local mall".

I took it as a joke, and I chuckled when I visualized an
alternative version of the commercial featuring a guy in a
serape and sombrero.

[sigfried]

Thanks Aaron for saying it first! Note for note, an excellent rendition. If you follow the link back to YouTube(tm) Pt. 1 of the song is also posted.
I think they should release it on DVD, in Dolby.

And a big thanks to David for giving in to his desire for an ELP link. Made my night, hell with the politics.

[bigbigslacker]

"hillary clinton is a lesbian" - 6,780 hits.

"jews are nazis" - 3,830 hits.

How to do a wake-n-bake - 3 hits

[Fluffy]

iih -

Did you dislike Lawrence of Arabia because of its portrayal of Arabs?

I'm just asking because I had always heard that the movie was wildly popular in the Middle East, to the point where when Peter O'Toole traveled there he was mobbed like he was in a boy band.

If that's an urban legend I'd like to know, so I can revise my "internal film history".

[Fluffy]

Just to contribute to the open thread, I read over at Andrew Sullivan that it looks like the anti-Mormon calls to NH were fakes planted by Mitt supporters. No word yet on whether the campaign is responsible or these were rogue operatives.

Who knew that Mitt supporters learned about political dirty tricks from minority students at Harvard and Smith? False-flag Mormons - what a riot.

[BakedPenguin]

"Seamus" actually gets 4,670,000 hits, but I don't think anyone could survive that, even given the low toxicity of LSD. So I rounded down.

[LeftyRighty]

Love Politics and Prog
Loved the Poteet Band's rendition
but play some ELP dammit
The Barbarian is cool and it's on YouTube

[The Fickle Public]

about 307,000 for "earth is flat"

[Edward]

Just to be clear, I don't think Ron Paul is a Nazi. But when it comes out that he got contributions from Nazis and doesn't immdeiately denounce the Nazis and give the money back, if leaves a lingering impression that he's at least synpathetic to Nazis. Similarly, she should have shown more outrage that somebody made raicst comments in his name in his newsleter. If you yahoos can't see how such perceptions harm your boy, you're aboslutely fucking bonkers.
Of course, I also don't think Ron Paul is a realistically viable candidate anyway, so it doesn't matter if people do think he's a Nazi. I just can't believe his most enthusiastic supporters can be so stupid.

[bigbigslacker]

Eward, you support masterbating to kiddie porn. Please vigorously deny this charge every chance you get.

[Minion of URKOBOLD]

EEEEDDDWWWAARRRDDDOOO IS SOUR BECAUSE THE WEIBSKOBOLD NEVER CALLED HIM BACK.

[Fluffy]

Hey everyone, I just read online that Edward maturbates to kiddie porn. You might want to comment on this on your blogs.

[sage]

"This Ron Paul is kind of interesting. He's a Republican who wants to get us out of Iraq.'

"Yeah, but I've heard he's a Nazi"

"What?!!"

"Yeah, Nazis have given him money."

"But he wants to end the drug war."

"So?"

"What kind of racist wants to end the drug war? That's the most racist thing out there."

"Huh. Boy those nazis sure were stupid to give him their money, weren't they?"

[Shylock]

But when it comes out that he got contributions from Nazis and doesn't immdeiately denounce the Nazis and give the money back, if leaves a lingering impression that he's at least synpathetic to Nazis.

Me too. I must be sympathetic to Nazis too. Damn.

[Jay D]

How come nobody's jumping up and down about Michigan?

Primary's off. Republicans will nominate a candidate in an exclusive convention.

[Interior Decorator]

Hay! Nice new lampshade there, Shylock. When you light it, does it not illuminate?

[J sub D]

The House passed, by a veto-proof margin, a bill that will put the onus on lenders not to let people buy mortgages they can't afford.

A fine example of legislation that will have only negative effects on the perceived problem. I'm not in the mortgage lending businesss, but I'm not stupid either. When a borrower defaults on a loan, the lender loses money. Sure he forecloses on the propertty (legal fees, court costs), takes poessesion, (property taxes, utilities, maintenance of the property), resells the property at a loss in today's market, (realtor fees, sales tax, etc.) and loses a shitload of cash at each step of the process. I hardly think we need legislation to discourage the practice.

Along those lines, this was posted a couple of months ago. My comments then (near the top) still apply.

But then, I don't have a degree like so many congresscritters do, so I'm probably talking out my ass. 😉

[iih]

Did you dislike Lawrence of Arabia because of its portrayal of Arabs?

Lawrence's writings were highly romanticized and factually lacking, to the level of undermining the tragedy that was the Arab revolt against the Turks, and its consequences. He failed to recognize the stab in the back the Arabs got after the revolt by the Brits.

[iih]

J sub D:

Aren't you missing these companies that buy debt from lenders whose customers default? I can't remember what they call these companies though.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Lie only become truth if person want to believe it.

[Sandy]

"Hitler is a Nazi" with quotes only gets 15 hits.

Clearly, Hitler and Hillary are doing about as well in the perception polls.

Thanks for that useful metric, Edward!

[iih]

USA Today Ron Paul Ad.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

J sub D
You are right, in theory if these lenders are rational self-interested actors they would have seen that right? But they obviously did not. Just like obviously a company would not risk causing an environmental nightmare that would give them a bad name for years, or would never put paint on a kids toy or ingredients in dog food that would be harmful to consumers and thus hurt their market share. But guess what, they do it all the time. Part of why life is a lil' more complicated than Libertarianism 101. Hint: it has a lot to do with the fact that people and organizations (run by people of course) are often irrational. Ah, life, so complicated, so harsh on utopians both left, right and libertarian!

[iih]

Can Ron Paul say that he will donate the money he received from Black to, say, the Holocaust Memorial Museum? That would be smart, no?

[iih]

J sub D, MNG:

And remember that lenders ARE in the business of taking risk. Apparently they over did it. And, well, may be not. Where the smaller ones comfortable doing so knowing that the Fed would lower rates and back them in case of crisis? Hmmm... we're back to the Fed again. Those of us who are neither greedy nor want to live beyond their means have essentially paid to save these idiots' behinds. And that is unfair.

(Related remark for those who might care: The USD was consistently on the rise versus the CAD this week. It is now 5 cents higher from a minimum of 0.92 last week. It is now at 0.97 CAD.)

[J sub D]

Hint: it has a lot to do with the fact that people and organizations (run by people of course) are often irrational.

As opposed to the government, right? Social Secutity, Medicare, The War on Drugs sanity, invasion of Iraq, Tuskagee syphilis experiments, SWAT teams, all apply when discussing the governments rational decision making prowess.

Also, there are no third parties here to protect. People make economic decisions that are not rational all the fuckin' time. Who are we protecting here? The borrowers? The lenders? The mortgage brokers? Real estate companies? All adults playing with their own money or money entrusted to them. To pepole who entrusted them the money, bad decision there, too bad, my heart bleeds for you, should have bought blue chip stocks, or cattle futures or something else.

Absent fraud, which of course should be prosecuted, there is no moral or justifiable reason for government intervention. None, Zero, Zip, Nada. Adam Smith got these players and that is the way it should be.

[iih]

J sub D:

Absent fraud, which of course should be prosecuted, there is no moral or justifiable reason for government intervention. None, Zero, Zip, Nada. Adam Smith got these players and that is the way it should be.

MNG might have been hinting at government intervention. If MNG did, I would disagree and would say that this is exactly the kind of situation where a gold standard would have helped the innocent bystanders (like me), and that would make lenders very cautious about their risk taking.

[sage]

Wow, thanks of that link, iih. I'm going to use the copier at my work to make a few. Thanks, work, for supporting Ron Paul!

[iih]

sage- my pleasure.

[J sub D]

These Pistons look like they have not picked much umph this time around... Boston looking great, though.

iih, Who knows? the Celtics may make the playoffs this year. They certainly spent the money necessary. OTOH, in the last 5 yearsthe Pistons, have been to the conference finals 5 times, the NBA finals twice and won it all once. How did the Celtics do?

just sayin'.

[iih]

J sub D:

Hey, you are talking to a big Pistons fan, though they same to be on the same track as they did since winning on '04. I do not see this special something that would take them all the way to the finals. May be something is brewing. The Celtics are looking great, but haven't had big challenges from strong teams yet. But they are doing going. I may convert to Celtics from the Pistons. (Where is Dondero to tell me how unpatriotic I am towards the Pistons.)

[iih]

"same " --> "seem"
"going" --> "good"
and there is a missing "the" somewhere in the penultimate (I like that word) sentence.

[iih]

An important message to all Ron Paul supporters

[J sub D]

iih,

I may be prejudiced on this, but I think basketball is the only team sport that is giving soccer (football to the rest of the world) competition for thw world's favorite team sport. When they start having basketball riots in Europe, I'll know it has finally arrived.

[iih]

J sub D: HA!

[J sub D]

An important message to all Ron Paul supporters

Does this mean I can't unload vitriol at Edward and Dondero anymore? I get a cathartic release when I do that. Oh well, for the cause.

[Max]

If Paul denounces anyone I quit.

Should he return money from sexists; from alcoholics, from druggies, from people who hate midgets? Why are we only focusing on racists or white supremacists? What about all the femanazis that support Hillary -- does she have to return that money?

[Kolohe]

iih-
Thanks for the reply above. What I don't know about Islam could fill a book. Probably the size of this one. 🙂

I wonder how many other people do not realize that the Koran and the Gospels were not written down until some years after their conception had passed.

[iih]

J sub D:

Does this mean I can't unload vitriol at Edward and Dondero anymore? I get a cathartic release when I do that. Oh well, for the cause.

For some reason you were the first person to come to mind when I read Bob Murphy's article 😉

[iih]

kolohe:

I would rather trust Muhammad Asad's The Message of the Qur'an. I haven't read it, but I have read his Road to Mecca, which also gives great insight into the synergy between wahabism and the House of Saud. The book itself reads like a national geographic story. His writing is very elegant and reads like a story.

Asad's personal story (which he tells in The road to Mecca) is very interesting --way more interesting than T. E. Lawrence's. He was born Leopold Weiss (to a long line of rabbis) in 1900 in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, led an intellectual (somewhat hedonistic) life in Germany and wrote for the Frankfurter Zeitung. At some point he decided to visit his uncle in the Holy Land, at which point he discovered Arab culture, and Islam.

His journeys are very interesting. Toping it all, he helped in the founding of Pakistan (!!!) and represented it in the UN for some time. He moved to Spain and died there in 1992. One of his more interesting views is that in Islam, the veil is not mandatory. Other than that he is religiously mainstream and is probably the best person to present the story of Islam to the West. More can be found here.

[Cesar]

I asked a liberal friend at work this weekend what policies Ron Paul supports that are racist. She wasn't able to do much, except go off on some screed about how opposing the minimum wage and federal interference in education is some how racist and and of itself.

[Truth, such as it is, in googl]

About 47,700 for "hitler was a nazi."

And while we're at it, lookit the context for hits number two and following (they keep on comin') hier.

[Cesar]

Oh, and also wanting to abolish OSHA is apparently racist andsexist.

I love how the definition of "racism" has been warped into "wanting to abolish certain federal departments".

[crimethink]

No, Cesar. "Racism" means "disagreeing with a liberal".

To be fair, "Supporting terrorists" means "disagreeing with a conservative"...

[iih]

kolohe- You get your moment of fame today. See my blog 🙂

[Cesar]

No, Cesar. "Racism" means "disagreeing with a liberal".

Better definition. Since I'm not white I was accused of being a "self-hating minority".

[self-addressed envelope]

Every individual is a minority.

[J sub D]

Cesar, don't tell me you're [gasp!] inauthentic. It's snobs like you, thinking for themselves, refusing to blindly follow their appointed (annointed?) leaders, that screws it up for the people who want everybody in a box. They hate having to deal with people as individuals.

Won't somebody think about the bigots, the petty minded, the fools?

[iih]

To do my part, I have decided to add the Coexist Bumper Sticker and a Fight Racism bumper sticker next to my "Google Ron Paul" bumper sticker.

In that Murphy article I link to above, Murphy links to a Daily Kos article about Paul's racism and his voting against the civil rights act. They interpret this as being racist, while it is actually very consistent with Paul's record in believing that rights are not given by government, but are a birthright.

Others in the left love to point out that Paul was the only representative to vote against giving Rosa Parks a medal of freedom (he did say that he respects Parks a lot and that that vote was one of the most difficult he ever made). Well guess what? He voted against giving Raegan a Medal of Freedom, too. But somehow this does not get mentioned by those on the left. Very dishonest. Regarding Raegan, though, I have only read about it in discussion boards but haven't seen a good source for it yet. Any suggestions?

[prolefeed]

Oh, and 134,000 google hits for edward masturbates to kiddie porn. So, by edward's logic, does this mean that it is far more likely to be true that edward 'bates to kiddie porn than that Ron Paul is both a nationalist and a socialist in addition to explicitly, publicly, and vehemently being against nationalism and socialism?

[Cesar]

Cesar, don't tell me you're [gasp!] inauthentic. It's snobs like you, thinking for themselves, refusing to blindly follow their appointed (annointed?) leaders, that screws it up for the people who want everybody in a box. They hate having to deal with people as individuals.

Yeah, it always seems its white liberals who say this too.

Call me crazy, but I think believing blacks and hispanics can't survive out on their own with out the Great White Father in Washington taking care of them and protecting them from the mean white supremacists lurking around every corner is whats racist.

[iih]

Cesar-

Call me crazy, but I think believing blacks and hispanics can't survive out on their own with out the Great White Father in Washington taking care of them and protecting them from the mean white supremacists lurking around every corner is whats racist.

Ditto 100%.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Well, when a large number of people go belly up it effects the WHOLE economy, even the (gasp, no!) system of voluntary exchanges we call the market. If something like this were to trigger a recession then most everyone is effected. The real estate market tanks, so construction tanks, building supplies tanks, retailers tank, people stop making and seeking loans and before you know it even Ju sub D could be laid off, even though he himself did not make the foolish decisions. Like it or not people's voluntary exchanges effect third parties all the time. So when an industry screws up like this we have to have government fix as usual, then have libertarians bitch about how the government is always the problem and the market always works magic...

[iih]

... Also, I would rather people come out honest about their racism than be shielded by federal laws.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"Oh, and also wanting to abolish OSHA is apparently racist andsexist." I don't think its racist or sexist, just crazy. OHSA protects many, many workers, probably you who are reading this right now (that's right YOU). Of course you think that without such government coercion YOUR employer would be sweet kind and beneficient and give you a safe workplace, or better you think YOU have mad skills and could surely compel your boss to give you all the protections that it took centuries of organized pressuring (ending in turning to government, and the feds at that) for most other workers without your magic powers to gain for themselves. Yeah, keep believing that...

[Cesar]

MNG, in its 30 years of existence OSHA has convicted twelve people of criminal convictions. Something tells my my employer wouldn't have me working with radioactive substances were it abolished.

[J sub D]

Oh, and 134,000 google hits for edward masturbates to kiddie porn.

I'm beginning to regret starting this.

Nah, just kidding.

[crimethink]

Mr Nice Guy,

Corrections can be painful, but they will be brief if the situation is allowed to sort itself out (ie, without govt interference a la Hoover and FDR). Economics isn't some hocus pocus where we have to worry about pissing off the bank gods if we allow lenders and lendees to fail. If our economy is fundamentally healthy, it will recover fairly quickly; if not, we're screwed regardless.

[J sub D]

Well, when a large number of people go belly up it effects the WHOLE economy, even the (gasp, no!) system of voluntary exchanges we call the market. If something like this were to trigger a recession then most everyone is effected. The real estate market tanks, so construction tanks,...

Socialist crap.

Mr. Nice Guy, you're defence of state controlled economy is obviously heartfelt. It is equally obvious that you haven't read your history books.

[crimethink]

Of course you think that without such government coercion YOUR employer would be sweet kind and beneficient and give you a safe workplace

I have no such illusions. However, I am pretty sure that my employer doesn't want to be paying through the nose for workplace injuries. This is one of those situations in which greed serves the same purposes as altruism.

[iih]

Will racism be eliminated through government laws or through serious discourse? Will serious discourse about racism ever come to life in a society where any discussion of it is always regulated by the fear of agitating the (fake?) peace of society?

Let us say that the civil rights act was never enacted. Wouldn't there have been more riots, more friction in society over the years (and, yes, with serious costs)? Wouldn't this kind of awful experience eventually taught people that racism does not work? Wouldn't those who stand up against racism have had a better incentive to fight racism than they would today?

Instead, government intervention could arguably have contributed to further the isolation of the different races from one another. Today, laws is what keeps racist offenses (though not racism itself) at bay. Has the civil war totally eliminated racism in the south?

I personally believe that racism will only be eliminated from society through voluntary interactions and never through imposition of laws.

I may be naive though.

[iih]

Grammatically fix my last comment as you see fit 😉

[hale]

Okay, I'm not sure I entirely understand the ramifications of this lending law. Would it affect those seeking finance for enterprises as well? Because I might be wrong, but it looks to me as though this could be another step toward legally-enforced economic stratification. If there were prosecutors actually investigating lenders who loaned outside of the recipient's means - I mean, first of all, how can you define that tightly enough to write into law? Secondly, won't that virtually ensure that banks behave more stingily, and that even people with solid plans are forced to "go it alone" for longer?

[iih]

hale, MNG, J sub D:

I seriously believe that a gold standard in a free economy would fox this problem.

[iih]

darn it... "fox"-->"fix"

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"However, I am pretty sure that my employer doesn't want to be paying through the nose for workplace injuries."
And who do you think enforces and allows such worker injury lawsuits? Hint: starts with a "g".

Cesar-often criminal action has only to be threatened to get most companies in compliance, besides OSHA is part of the many comprehensive protections we have. What makes you think we won't have a "race to the bottom" of compromising work place safety? After all if your boss does not make his workplace less safe (and more profit maximizing) he will lose out to the guy down the street who does. Then another boss lowers the bar and your boss has to do so to compete. Etc. I mean, don't libertarians believe in incentives?

J sub D-where in the history books am I missing? For literally centuries freedom of contract was the establishment position, preached from academe, from newspaper editorials, from politicians, from the judiciary...It was insisted that it and the rational invisible hand would protect workers...Guess what, even though this message had every advantage the mass of people reflecting on their immediate experience said "bullsh*t" and began to endorse and push for government intervention to curb abuses. After a couple of decades of being protected from you know not what now it seems ok for well protected folks like you and me to engage in libertarian fantasies of freedom of contract being enough, but if wishes and buts were....
Or did I miss the part in the history books where after countless devasting boom-bust cycles the people demanded government corrections and we have had 0 great Depressions or potato famines or whatever since...

[Mr. Nice Guy]

iih-how would a gold standard fix this? Lenders make stupid loans. They go belly up, after the people they made the loans to go belly up. The people whose livelihood is effected by these folks (read: just about everyone) hurts when they go belly up. How would a gold standard fix this? People would still be free to trade gold for promises of gold later, and many greedy shortsighted folks would give and take out many such exchanges which cannot be covered.

[crimethink]

And who do you think enforces and allows such worker injury lawsuits? Hint: starts with a "g".

Right. The court system -- one of the legitimate functions of govt -- does this. Hence, no need for OSHA.

Or did I miss the part in the history books where after countless devasting boom-bust cycles the people demanded government corrections and we have had 0 great Depressions or potato famines or whatever since

The Federal Reserve was created in 1913, so we have had a great depression, and several business cycle oscillations since that time.

[Edward]

This is interesting. Here's a guy who obviously loathes Ron Paul but never once says that Ron Paul is a Nazi.

THINK TRUTH.- wrote:

Ron Paul is:

anti-gay,
anti-choice,
anti-feminist,
anti-universal health care,
anti-environmental,
anti-union and
anti-regulation.

Ron Paul is in favor of letting billionaires pay no taxes. He supports corporate welfare. He supports unrestricted and unlicensed ownership of any and every firearm ever invented.

Ron Paul opposes full funding of public education and the National Endowment for the Arts. He advocates Christian prayer in school. He is everything bad about Libertarians combined with the worst aspects of Republicanism.

He wants to bring troops home. Big deal. So does Kucinich. So does Edwards. Ron Paul is a right-wing extremist who just happens to come down on the left side of ONE issue. Apart from that one, he is a neo-con, corporatist swine, just like all the other anti-American pigs on the GOP ticket.

To put it simply: sexual intercourse Ron Paul.

I would be worried about the cult following he has acquired, were it not for the fact that Ron Paul is more likely to win the bronze in Female Gymnastics in 2008 than the GOP nomination.

Spread the word: Ron Paul's a turd.

Typically, when I make these points about Ron Paul, one of his cult-like followers makes a really bright counter-argument, like, "You're an asshole. Go to Hell. You should have your mouth filled in with cement, you dumb-shit." The spelling is not typically that good, though.

Ah, the free exchange of political view-points... how refreshing!

I find it telling that Ron Paul's supporters have literally nothing constructive to say to these criticisms. This is the thing that has me utterly convinced that Ron Paul is just another neo-con swine: resorting to character assassination in lieu of valid arguments. If you can't retort, just swift-boat the liberal bastard!

Ron Paul is a plant. He's on the scene to dupe progressives into jumping the aisle. I've been amazed at the otherwise seemingly intelligent folks who support him. Kucinich outshines him in every way. Not only does Kucinich outshine him in every way, a sick lightning bug in broad daylight would outshine him in every way.

[crimethink]

A graphic demonstration of how much the Federal Reserve's creation in 1913 helped avoid booms and busts. Notice how stable the Dow average has been compared to gold since "the people" demanded fiat currency.

[Kolohe]

Eddie & TT-
ur a$$wholes. go 2 hell! u shuld get ur mouts fill w ciment, u dumbshiats.

[iih]

MNG:

Banks would inflate the receipts (their bank notes) they give out to those who apply for loans such that they give out receipts that have a value greater than the actual gold they have. This is the risk they have to make when lending money. Lets say the bank is irresponsible and gives way too many bank notes, a crisis happens and the bank goes bust.

Well, those direct bystanders who are harmed by this bust are only the employees of the bank and the customers who deposit their money in the bank. For the employees, well, they have to pick their employers carefully. The employee interviews the employer as much as the employer interviews the candidate employee. As with anything in life there is always going to be risk.

Regarding customers of the bank, the prospect of this kind of crisis is incentive enough to choose your bank carefully. Banks would compete to provide the customers a safe investment in their banks, etc. It is a self regulating system.

This kind of situation is guaranteed only if money can not be printed at will by the Fed. As long as the Fed offers a safety net for the banks, the more careless they will be in their lending policies.

A super conservative citizen can then go to a bank that offers 100% gold-backing (this bank makes money by simply storing the depositors money). A less conservative customer would go to a bank that is not 100% gold backed, expecting to make a few more "bucks" on his savings, with the risk that the bank has a slightly higher chance of going bust.

[J sub D]

Mr Nice Guy, as soon as the bodies start piling up as a result of profligate lending practices let me know.

It's not the governments goddam money. Lending institutions should be free to lend "at their own risk". Why is that so hard to understand? General Motors should never have produced the Vega. Stockholders lost money because of it. Tough. Should the feds get involved with those type of business decisions as well?

One last question, do you really believe there is ANY chance that the lending business is going to lend themselves into bankruptcy? Not one or two companies now, I'm talking about the whole home lending market.

[J sub D]

oh jeez, Edwards back. Did he post anything new or interesting?

[J sub D]

The Federal Reserve was created in 1913, so we have had a great depression, and several business cycle oscillations since that time.

And I was thinking about Eastern Europe, five year plans and India's flirtation with a command economy.

[avocado diaboli]

A super conservative citizen can then go to a bank that offers 100% gold-backing (this bank makes money by simply storing the depositors money).

But this hurts the economy because the money is not then available for lending, resulting in a credit crunch. Also, people would start hiding gold in their mattresses, which would make it harder for the government to discourage bad behavior by freezing bad people's bank accounts and starving them into compliance.

[iih]

avocado:

But this hurts the economy because the money is not then available for lending, resulting in a credit crunch.

Sure, but such super-conservative depositors are rare anyways and 100% backed banks would also be rare. Supply/demand.

BTW, I think, 100% gold baking is how the Bank of Amsterdam worked for 150 years, becoming one of the richest in the world. They make money for providing storage services.

[iih]

avocado is actually crimethink... grrr

[iih]

Bank of Amsterdam.

[crimethink]

I hope they never pass an act of Congress outlawing deceitful blog commenting...

[iih]

I hope they never pass an act of Congress outlawing deceitful blog commenting...

Because you'd be in a lot of trouble?

[crimethink]

They can take my keyboard...

from my cold, dead hands!

[Guy Montag]

Anybody calling Ron Paul a racist or a Nazi is either insane, uninformed or purposly misinformed.

Then again, Leftists can't attack anything or anybody with the truth, they alwaus have to make up some dramatic, scripted, inflamitory comment.

If they gave a care about racism within their ranks they would not have Senator Byrd in office.

As for Ron Paul, apparently his nutty "gold standard" business is not in their script, so they have to make up racism charges.

Isn't RP a "fair tax" or "flat tax" guy? According to the Leftists, unless you take away a much higher percentage of income gained from corporate activity then you are "giving away" money to the "rich", so they toss that at him and almost any Republican or Libertatian.

If you don't have an honest point then at least talk up the positive points of the person you support.

[Franklin]

iih said...

Others in the left love to point out that Paul was the only representative to vote against giving Rosa Parks a medal of freedom (he did say that he respects Parks a lot and that that vote was one of the most difficult he ever made). Well guess what? He voted against giving Reagan a Medal of Freedom, too.

Not only has he voted against congressional medals whenever it has come up, but he has offered to fund the medal with his own money if other members of congress helped.

You know the arguments are becoming weak when left leaning publications call them out.

As someone who could be fined $500 for checking caucasian on my census form, I would much rather some stupid racist send Ron Paul money (which I know would be used for good) than to spend the money themselves on hate literature. Apparently, Edward would rather see some new hate literature produced.

Also, TeaParty07 signups are happening at a much quicker pace than ThisNovember5th signups did.

I find it funny how many liberals now frequent reason.com posting 50 year old, debunked arguments thinking they're going to change the mind of people who have spent years of reading and thinking to come to logical conclusions. If you don't even know what fractional reserve banking is, you should do a little more research before trying to debate those that have.

[Franklin]

And, what's this? Apparently an Israel National News contributor thinks Ron Paul Should be the Zionist Choice for US President. Does this mean that Israel National News is pro-Nazi?

[Cesar]

And, what's this? Apparently an Israel National News contributor thinks Ron Paul Should be the Zionist Choice for US President. Does this mean that Israel National News is pro-Nazi?

I tried to tell her some of his biggest heroes were Jews. Her responde? Many neo-nazis claim to be Christian, so their biggest hero is a Jew, too.

[J sub D]

You know the arguments are becoming weak when left leaning publications call them out.

They hate him at Pandagon, but I can't even talk to those people. I once tried to explain that the lack of female heroines in books and movies wasn't a conspiracy, but simple economics. The responses were mind boggling at best. Feminists can be really weird.

[iih]

Franklin,

Regarding Paul and medals. Thanks for the references. This is exactly what is needed to counter those on the left. LRC should put these links on their website. These pages have to become popular on google somehow (visiting them a zillion times?). Greenwald's commentary is truly excellent. He's good.

Regarding fractional reserve banking, I have not read on that yet. I have some homework to do.

Finally, do not forget this article regarding Paul and Israel. I agree with views that the author of the article you provide, and think that a similar policy towards Arab states would be good for the region. Once people are on their own, they feel kind of naked and would tend towards reconciliation as opposed to being aggressive, being backed by the big bully.

[iih]

Cesar-

I tried to tell her...

Who?

[sage]

This effort is to give Senator Thompson the Thanksgiving Present he deserves.

Hey, here's an idea for a Thanksgiving present for the rest of us: stick a bone up his ass and let the dogs drag him off.

[Cesar]

I tried to tell her...

The liberal I know that I was speaking about earlier. Apparently this Ron Paul=Neo-Nazi meme is really spreading.

[iih]

sage- Please be polite.

[sage]

You know, iih, I read that earlier (thanks for posting it). I forgot-sorry. I'm going to search H&R for a previous post from someone about the very tactics the writer is referring to. Stand by...

[Guy Montag]

I have ceased being amazed at a party that advocates every variant of "national healthcare" and every crackpot idea to make shopkeepers the agents of social welfare, advocate tobacco prohabition, and can call anybody else Nazis. Pointing out to them that Nazism is National Socialism sends them into a fit of English language misuse that only a post-modern non-written poetry major could appreciate.

[sage]

OK, here it is:

How to Whip This Ron Paul Character and All His Whacky Followers.

Ron Paul can be defeated by ignorance. Ignore him if you can.
By lies. Misrepresent his positions whenever possible.
By word gaming. As Lenin advised, "First, confuse the vocabulary."
By contempt. Dismiss him as amusing and pathetic.
By smearing his supporters. Find the worst and spotlight them. Call them a cult.
By consensus. Dismiss him with peer-pressure ridicule.
By false accusations. Spread them quickly and far.
By never discussing his policies. Change the subject to his person.
By the polls. Ask the right people the right questions and get the answer you want.
By reporting his most unpopular votes. But don't report his reasoning.
By rudeness. Wreck any debate where his ideas are winning.
With all these tools, he can be easily defeated. Use them generously.

But Ron Paul cannot be defeated by refuting him in an honest and courteous technical debate. Avoid that.

- Moderno Machiavelli

I think this should be repeated a gazillion times.

[iih]

sage- 🙂 I agree.

[iih]

Another good article: Ron Paul's Support Grows On College Campuses.

[Guy Montag]

David,

Nice CNN headline reference in your title. Just caught it.

[M]

Many neo-nazis claim to be Christian, so their biggest hero is a Jew, too.

Word up, Cesar.

[crimethink]

Guy Montag wrote:

Then again, Leftists can't attack anything or anybody with the truth, they alwaus have to make up some dramatic, scripted, inflamitory comment.

Uh, weren't you calling several posters "terrorist allies" the other day? As Eddie Vedder would say, if you hate somethin', don't you do it too.

[Edward]

Here's an interesting article by Ron Paul that appears--where else?--on David Duke's official website:

The Official Website of Representative David Duke, PhD - http://www.davidduke.com -

"The Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America"

[Aristotle]

Hitler believed in the law of gravity, therefore all who believe in the law of gravity are Nazis.

I'm so glad Edward's here when the reason editors are on break.

[Cesar]

I don't understand why the Stormfront boys don't just vote for Tancredo. Hes way closer to them than Paul.

[Guy Montag]

Uh, weren't you calling several posters "terrorist allies" the other day?

Yes and I was being accurate.

[Guy Montag]

In the false racism charges being thrown at Ron Paul, some of the editorial staff at Reason would be indirectly guilty of that too.

Like when Nick was on Bullshit calling people who advocate secure borders racists.

Don't quite a few of the commnetators here do that whenever illigal immigration (sorry, that phrasing is illegal around here) comes up? They go straight to the racism card?

Back to the Tammy Bruce show for now.

[sage]

Here's a comforting little tidbit.

"Boston police are launching a program that will call upon parents in high-crime neighborhoods to allow detectives into their homes, without a warrant, to search for guns in their children's bedrooms.

The program, which is already raising questions about civil liberties, is based on the premise that parents are so fearful of gun violence and the possibility that their own teenagers will be caught up in it that they will turn to police for help, even in their own households.

In the next two weeks, Boston police officers who are assigned to schools will begin going to homes where they believe teenagers might have guns. The officers will travel in groups of three, dress in plainclothes to avoid attracting negative attention, and ask the teenager's parent or legal guardian for permission to search. If the parents say no, police said, the officers will leave."

Simple as that, folks. And the word "Taser" never even appeared.

Prepare, folks. The revolution cometh.

[Guy Montag]

Boston police?

Another example of civil rights crushing Republicans!

[iih]

Guy Montag-

Uh, weren't you calling several posters "terrorist allies" the other day?

Yes and I was being accurate.

I am just wondering, what makes a person a "terrorist ally"? I mean, what are the criteria?

[sage]

"Either you are wit us, or you are wit the terrorists."

-Some state leader

[Edward]

People who believe in the law of gravity AND accept Nazi contributions for their political campaigns are probably Nazis or Nazi sympathizers. It's all about shoes that fit and wearing them.

[iih]

Guy Montag-

Regarding illegal immigration. I do take Ron Paul's position of having a hard stand in the face of illegal immigration. As an immigrant myself, I paid a few thousand dollars (not to count the money paid by my employer) to become an immigrant. I had to wait for my turn and worked very patiently with the system. There are those who come here illegally, avoiding all the financial costs, and the entire process. To say the least, this is very unjust.

There are those who come here illegally for some humanitarian reasons. So I would not collectively put all illegal immigrants in the "bad" category.

My position has nothing to do with racism (being "non-white" myself). What I am for, however, is to change immigration laws so that the people who are in demand in this country come here legally, through the established process.

As J sub D would say: Just sayin'.

[Guy Montag]

iih,

People who wish to facilitate terrorists, even with advocy of policies that overly hinder combating people who engage in terrorist tactics.

You speak English very well. I find it difficult to believe that you do not know what those words mean.

[Guy Montag]

iih,

Why are you attempting to lecture me on illegal immigration? Are you imagening some position for me or some attack on you?

[Guy Montag]

That crazy DC Craig's List, Ron Paul discussion has entered day three.

[sage]

To no one in particular:

If Ron Paul is a racist, why would he be calling for an end to the drug war? The simple answer is that he's not a racist.

[iih]

Guy Montag-

People who wish to facilitate terrorists, even with advocy of policies that overly hinder combating people who engage in terrorist tactics.

Sure. Makes sense. But would you consider Paul's policies advocating policies for the terrorists?

You speak English very well. I find it difficult to believe that you do not know what those words mean.

This is the first time I see these words, how would I misinterpret them if I had not seen them before. But I think I understand them, now that I have read the words.

Why are you attempting to lecture me on illegal immigration?

No!?! I am confused, what gives you that impression? I was just telling everyone my views as a legal immigrant who went through the process with all its expenses, constraints, and time, etc.

Are you imagening some position for me or some attack on you?

Seriously, no.

[Unexpurgated News Source]

The officers will travel in groups of three, dress in plainclothes to avoid attracting negative attention, and, their breath reeking of taxpayer-funded raw onions, ask the teenager's parent or legal guardian for permission to search. If the parents say no, police said, the officers will leave.

[Guy Montag]

Sure. Makes sense. But would you consider Paul's policies advocating policies for the terrorists?

Still undecided, but at least he wants to do something after our being attacked besides surrender and fellowship.

This is the first time I see these words, how would I misinterpret them if I had not seen them before. But I think I understand them, now that I have read the words.

I was talking about the phrase you made a comment on and had to ask about.

No!?! I am confused, what gives you that impression? I was just telling everyone my views as a legal immigrant who went through the process with all its expenses, constraints, and time, etc.

Because you began a lecture on immigration with "Guy," and went on to give a perfect agreement with me on one aspect of that issue as if you were trying to educate someone on the topic.

Now, do you think it is wrong to call people who do not advocate fully open, unguarded borders racists? That is what the staff of Reason does on a regular basis. One of the few faults the publication has, IMHO.

[crimethink]

People who wish to facilitate terrorists, even with advocy of policies that overly hinder combating people who engage in terrorist tactics.

I'm curious, Guy, is there any way someone could oppose your views on the "war on terror" without being a terrorist ally?

[Guy Montag]

I'm curious, Guy, is there any way someone could oppose your views on the "war on terror" without being a terrorist ally?

Yes, but I doubt that you are one of them.

[crimethink]

I guess anyone who supports habeas corpus, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, the right to trial by jury, and the right to an attorney is an ally of murderers, rapists, drug dealers, and yes, terrorists, since the Bill of Rights makes punishing those people more difficult.

[iih]

Guy-

Because you began a lecture on immigration with "Guy," and went on to give a perfect agreement with me on one aspect of that issue as if you were trying to educate someone on the topic.

Seriously, didn't mean to give anyone a lecture --simply giving my view on the issue.

Now, do you think it is wrong to call people who do not advocate fully open, unguarded borders racists?

I would always think so, yes. But listening to some pundits (esp. on talk radio), yes I think that some are indeed racists --not all.

[Guy Montag]

crimethink,

I am going back to ignoring you. We get along better that way and all that straw you are burning is degrading my enjoyment of a Winston.

[crimethink]

After labeling me a terrorist ally, I don't think you have much standing to complain about straw man tactics. Ignore away.

[Guy Montag]

Speaking of crazy Leftist attitudes (one of the general topics in this discussion, I am adding something old and new), right here on the pages of H&R *I* was called a bigot, of some sort, for being against government involvement in marriage.

[[e-mail]]

But why would it be a good idea to give money back to nazis or racists? Wouldn't a worthy goal be to drain as much money as possible out of the hands of nazis and racists?

[Guy Montag]

That Reason Foundation thingie from last month is on C-SPAN right now, with Judge Napolitano.

[The IRS]

Wouldn't a worthy goal be to drain as much money as possible out of the hands of nazis and racists?

That's our job, but it's not exclusive to them.

[The IRS]

We in the government do not have HTML skills that we know of.

[SIV]

right here on the pages of H&R *I* was called a bigot, of some sort, for being against government involvement in marriage

....and if you don't support Federal funding for embryonic stem cell research you are a superstitious fundy-- even if you oppose all State-funding of science that doesn't directly serve a Constitutionally-mandated function of government.

[M]

*I* was called a bigot, of some sort, for being against government involvement in marriage.

Guy - I don't doubt your report, but I'm unable to infer the connection your accuser made. Would you mind either pointing me to the thread or summarizing the logic used against government-free marriage by equating it with racism?

[Cesar]

....and if you don't support Federal funding for embryonic stem cell research you are a superstitious fundy-- even if you oppose all State-funding of science that doesn't directly serve a Constitutionally-mandated function of government.

I for one don't get that, either.

[Guy Montag]

Would you mind either pointing me to the thread or summarizing the logic used against government-free marriage by equating it with racism?

It was one of those items around March or so? Was not racism, it was some sort of homophobic-bigotry I was being accused of for failing to support homosexual marriage. Of course, my failure to support the expansion of marriage comes from my wish that the government would just stay our of the whole thing anyway, thus making me some sort of gay-basher or something.

[M]

Okay, Guy, I think I got it: What isn't regulated is neglected. I think that extends to Cesar's citation too. And the NEA muzzles artists by not subsidizing them. How safe I feel.

[Guy Montag]

Breaking News from Red Eye: The first victim of toad licking season has been arrested. Look for in-depth coverage from Radley any day now.

[Straw Ron Bailey]

if you don't support Federal funding for embryonic stem cell research you are a superstitious fundy-- even if you oppose all State-funding of science that doesn't directly serve a Constitutionally-mandated function of government.

But stem cell research is really cool and stuff! The only reason you wouldn't want to fund it is if you think stem cells are babies.

[iih]

I was looking around for some (free) ipod podcasts on American history for my long commutes. Of course I looked at the usual suspects --Library of Congress, National Museum, the Smithsonian, and a few others but could not find what I am looking for. Randomly searching the web, I came across http://americanhistory.libsyn.com/, which has some interesting (free) podcasts. Haven't heard any of the episodes yet. Anyone heard of it? Anyone has some other suggestions?

[Fluffy]

Guy -

People who oppose illegal immigration on economic grounds, or because illegal immigrants consume services that cost tax dollars, aren't racists.

People who oppose illegal immigration because they openly fear its "cultural" impact, or because they view a so-called "non-white" majority [despite the fact that this is a non sequitur, since Hispanics are white], are racists.

In addition, since it's pretty obvious that the intent of the 9/11 terrorists was to provoke the US to commit ground troops in the Middle East, so that we could be attrited physically, financially, and spiritually, I think the only real terrorist allies in the US are advocates of continuing operations in Iraq. Are you one of these terrorist allies, Guy?

[Fluffy]

Word Shift Alert

Were you called a bigot for opposing government "involvement in" marriage, or government "expansion of" marriage?

These are dramatically different things, and you use the two formulations above as if they are interchangeable.

[Un otro abogado diablo]

it was some sort of homophobic racial-bigotry I was being accused of for failing to support homosexual marriageintegrated schools. Of course, my failure to support the expansion of marriage education comes from my wish that the government would just stay our of the whole thing anyway, thus making me some sort of gay-basher racist or something.

[iih]

The Louisiana Purchase was unconstitutional? So says John Yoo of Boalt Hall School of Law at UC Berkeley. Listen here.

[iih]

Cool! Hey J sub D, we should forgive our Wolverines for loosing that game today then, huh?

[Grand Chalupa]

Hey, did you guys know that La Raza means "the race"? And did you know that the race is a large hispanic advocacy group?

And did you know Mexicans make no secret of their desire to conquer the American Southwest?

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2007/11/hispanic_consci.php

But of course, race, culture, what do these things matter? The free market is the only thing that motivates human beings.

There can never be any negative influence on a country. All people are good. High crime rate, high rates of illigitamcy, low IQ, low educational achievments, only bigots bring up such pointless matters.

And of course, movements in favor of small government will have success by importing large groups of people who believe in big government.

Such brilliance explains libertarian electoral success! Keep it up, you morons.

[Grand Chalupa]

And for those who don't want to read my links, I have direct quotes for you. And for those of you wanting to make a difference, go to numbersusa.com. They send you E-Mails whenever immigration related bills come before congress and allow you to fax your representatives for free.

Libertarians, if you hate collectivism, then you should be against Hispanic immigration. For the Democrats, more Hispanics makes sense. For the rest of us...

Professor Jos" Angel Gutierrez of the University of Texas explained his views to a Hispanic audience in 1995: "We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. It's a matter of time. The explosion is in our population. You must believe that you are entitled to govern? Se estan cagando cabrones de miedo! (They [whites] are sh****** in their pants with fear.) I love it!" In 2004, at a Latino Civil Rights Summit, he added, "We are the future of America. Unlike any prior generation, we now have a critical mass. We're going to Latinize this country."

Mike Hernandez of the Los Angeles City Council, echoed the same sentiments in1996: "Somos Mexicanos (we are Mexicans)! Mexico, some of us say, is the country this land used to belong to! . . . We are the future, we will lead the Western hemisphere!"

Armando Navarro, a professor at the University of California at Riverside, made a similar boast in1995: "[T]ime is on our side, as one people as one nation within a nation as the community that we are, the Chicano/Latino community of this nation. What that means is a transfer of power. It means control."

"We are everywhere, and there is no occupation or activity in this country that escapes our influence," says Univision anchorman Jorge Ramos. "This century is ours." Aida Alvarez, who was head of the Small Business Administration for President Bill Clinton, campaigned for Al Gore against George Bush in 1999, proclaiming that "the 21st century will be a Latino century, no doubt about it." "The long-anticipated Latino majority has arrived," says David Hayes-Bautista, director of UCLA's Center for the Study of Latino Health and Culture. "They [Hispanics] will be defining the American dream."

What do Hispanics means when they talk about transfer of power, of the century belonging to them? Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor, explained: "[W]e are politicizing every single one of those new [Hispanic] citizens that are becoming citizens of this country. . . . And our vote is going to be important. But I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, 'I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back.'"

It is jarring for whites to learn that immigrant groups may want "payback" from America.

Hispanics in power are not likely to "celebrate diversity" the way whites are encouraged to do. John Fernandez is a teacher at Roosevelt High School in Los Angeles and spokesman for the Coalition for Chicano and Chicana Studies. He wants the staff and the curriculum to reflect the new Hispanic majority and nothing else: "Under the guise of diversity comes a disempowerment of the Latino community. I don't see how people unfamiliar with our language and culture and customs can deal with our problems." His conclusion: "Educating for diversity is a crock."

[apostate]

Previously I've supported open immigration, but after reading Ayaan Hirsi's memoir and the above quotes, I've wondered if it wouldn't be a good idea to have some sort of questionnaire given out - with example scenarios(kind of like the game scruples) - for prospective immigrants to constitutional democracies. Questions like, "Someone writes something in the newspaper that offends your religion, ethnicity, or sexual mores. You think the proper response would be to:
a. write something back, rebutting the author's opinion b. demand that the paper be legally banned c. take some violent action against the author or the building where the paper is published

It is at least something of a concern (as it has become in places like Holland) where a large, newly immigrated minority does not believe in the fundamental principles on which the country is founded and is likely in the future to turn that country into a place based on the opposite principles.

[Grand Chalupa]

Previously I've supported open immigration, but after reading Ayaan Hirsi's memoir and the above quotes, I've wondered if it wouldn't be a good idea to have some sort of questionnaire given out - with example scenarios(kind of like the game scruples) - for prospective immigrants to constitutional democracies. Questions like, "Someone writes something in the newspaper that offends your religion, ethnicity, or sexual mores. You think the proper response would be to:
a. write something back, rebutting the author's opinion b. demand that the paper be legally banned c. take some violent action against the author or the building where the paper is published

That's really no good. A lot of the Muslims in Europe today are much less well integrated than their parents.

Liberal explanation: Poverty, root causes, blah, blah, blah

Libertarian explanation: There is no probelm, every thing is ok!

I take the paleoconservative route, spit on the whole cult of diversity and say that hostility between Muslims and secular/Christian Europe was inevitable once the former's numbers became large enough. The previous generation had no choice but to marry European natives, work with them and speak their language. Looking at news and reading history, it seems to me the most obvious thing in the world that linguistic, racial and religious diversity is a weekness of a nation. Whether the conflict takes moderate forms like in Quebec and Belguim or extreme form in Rwanda and Iraq, it seems such an obvious fact to me that it drives me crazy that I have to repeat it and have people think I'm insane.

Hispanics do not have a worldview that is as blatantly hostile to the West as Muslims do, but they have culturalal and linguistic pride. And yes, like every group of Americans except the white (soon to be minority) they have racial pride. To tell whites that their greatest sin is to think of themselves as a group while allowing (at places like my college, encouraging) every other group to do so is to ask whites to eventually become enslaved to other groups. And we're already halfway there. Look at who pays the most taxes and who benefits.

Hispanics have already embraced affirmative action and the cult of victimization. As their numbers grow, does anybody believe all these advocacy group and Jesse Jackson like "leaders" peddling victimhood are going anywhere? Hispanics are becoming more and more like blacks. A poor minority that overall does badly in school, has high rates of illigitmacy and antisocial behavior and has embraced government(and hence, the Democratic party) to be its savior. Of course, big goverment will only make things worse and hatred of the gringo will grow.

I'm having a harder and harder time seeing the difference between the libertarian and marxist views of human nature.

[Guy Montag]

Just my personal view on immigration here.

I don't care where they are from as long as all are vetted before getting a visa and I would prefer just one type of visa with no limits on the number that can be issued. I suspect that the feds will run into a processing limitation, that I certainly do not advocate, but even in areas where they are supposed to be involved the government is not the most efficient actor.

Something along the lines of vetting the applicant for criminal background AND/OR activities hostile to the USA EVEN IF IT WAS NOT A CRIMINAL CHARGE.

All for making the path to citizenship much easier than what my understanding of it is now.

Of course, the above approach works best when the federal government is not passing out paychecks to folks who are not working. Leaving out States doing that is not an endorsement of that level either.

I am sure Fluffy can change the words in this comment to make it racist.

[apostate]

I don't think it's 'no good.' It's simply a better alternative than letting everyone in, under no conditions (it would at least minimize the numbers getting in who are already bringing in hostile ideas - though granted the questionnaire would have to be written in a way as to not make it too obvious the applicants are being winnowed out), as well as discriminating against people simply because of religion or ethnicity. But I'm guessing you prefer the latter.

[Guy Montag]

Discrimination by faith, origin, race, etc. is always a bad idea in immigration policy.

Discrimination by hostile motive is perfectly fine in my book.

[apostate]

by "you" I meant "Chalupa Grande." Not the royal "you" or any other ewes (sorry).

[Stem Cells]

Waaaaaaaa!! Waaaaaaaa!!

[Edward]

I'm having a hard time seeing the difference between libertarian and marxist verisons of economic determinism. Different content, same mindset.

[Fluffy]

Actually, Guy, there was absolutely no racism in your post. At all.

I am a little hesitant about your "hostile to the United States" criteria, because as a practical matter that would manifest itself as hostility to some US policy or other, and that is dramatically different from hostility to the United States. Personally I think people who self-proclaim hostility to the US government during the Bush administration would probably make better citizens than the John Derbyshires out there fellating Bush every day.

But there's no racism in your post at all.

I'm still wondering about the marriage question, of course, but you have clarified your immigration position quite well.

[Edward]

Another trait libertarians share with marxists is a tendency to create personality cults. Ron Paul is the implausible object of the current libertarian personality cult. Maybe in his case we should say that he's the libertarian Furher.

[Guy Montag]

Fluffy,

Just scroll up. The marriage thing is already laid out plain as day to anybody who bothers to read the words as written without injecting alternate meanings.

More simply, I am not bright enough to make the phrase "government should not be involved in marriage" any simpler for you.

[Guy Montag]

Another trait libertarians share with marxists is a tendency to create personality cults.

Um, Edward, that one is so common that you could compare almost any group to almost any other.

I am missing the the whole marxist == libertarian thing, but if it is based on anything similar to the personality cult thing I forgive myself.

[Fluffy]

Guy, in one post you said that you were called a bigot for opposing government involvement in marriage, and in another for opposing government expansion of marriage. It is precisely because I am reading your posts that I find this ambiguous.

To me, opposing government involvement in marriage would mean having the state withdraw from the process of licensing marriages entirely, in which case heterosexual marriage would have no state privilege over same-sex marriage and plural marriage.

OTOH, opposing government expansion of marriage would mean that you like the state's current level of involvement in marriage and don't want it changed.

Since you used both formulations in separate posts, this creates a pretty wide range of possible positions. If I missed a post where you picked one of these I apologize.

To Chalupa:

I think the "Dirty Mexicans love big government" argument is pretty weak. We have big government in the United States because non-Hispanics voted for it overwhelmingly. We can't really pin that one on the Dirty Mexicans. You may consider that Hispanic support for the Democrat party indicates a predilection to want even bigger government, but we really don't have enough data to be sure of that. Right now Hispanics have a choice between two big government parties, and one of those parties is hanging out a "We Hate Dirty Mexicans" sign - so it's not surprising which one they choose. We would need to have a few elections without Mexican Hate being a key pillar of the Tancredo subsection of the party before we could know anything one way or the other.

[Guy Montag]

JFC! The one I "picked" was opposition to government involvement in marriage.

OTHERS decided that a failure to support homosexual marriage was some indication of bigotry, in spite of my position that there should be no government sanction of marriage, period.

If you still don't understand it, TFB.

[Edward]

Check this out:

Marxism of The Right http://www.amconmag.com/2005_03_14/article1.html

[Cesar]

Hey, did you guys know that La Raza means "the race"? And did you know that the race is a large hispanic advocacy group?

[Cesar]

Lets try this again.

Hey, did you guys know that La Raza means "the race"? And did you know that the race is a large hispanic advocacy group?

It generally means "the people", dumbshit.

La raza isn't very scary. Its nothing more than a social club rich third generation hispanics join so they can pretend they really care about the new immigrants. Theres very little connection between the two groups, but white supremacists like to pretend otherwise.

[Cesar]

Discrimination by faith, origin, race, etc. is always a bad idea in immigration policy.

Discrimination by hostile motive is perfectly fine in my book.

If you have a job and you're not a criminal, go on in is what I say. Let em come and work, let em leave when they're done if they want.

Commit a felony, your ass gets deported and you don't get back in.

[Fluffy]

Nope, Guy, all ambiguity is removed and I understand you perfectly now. And anyone who said you were a bigot on that score is...a douchebag!

[J sub D]

Uh, weren't you calling several posters "terrorist allies" the other day?

Yes and I was being accurate.

No, you were being an ass.

[crimethink]

On ThisWeek, George Will just said a double-digit finish in 2nd or 3rd place is likely for "his man Ron Paul" in NH, especially if Hillary wraps up the Dem nomination in Iowa.

[Cesar]

On ThisWeek, George Will just said a double-digit finish in 2nd or 3rd place is likely for "his man Ron Paul" in NH, especially if Hillary wraps up the Dem nomination in Iowa.

It all depends on the independents, whether more of them vote in the GOP primary, or more vote in the Dem primary. The number of independents that chose to vote in the GOP 2000 NH Primary over the Dem one cost Bill Bradley his only chance at victory.

[Guy Montag]

J sub D,

Please stop scaring me with your filthy, threatening language. Please, please, you are scaring me to death.

[J sub D]

Commit a felony, your ass gets deported and you don't get back in.

Commit a felony, YOU DO THE TIME, THEN your ass gets deported and you don't get back in.

I support no special privedges for dirtbags who happen to be immigrants.

[Cesar]

I support no special privedges for dirtbags who happen to be immigrants.

Ha, I wouldn't call serving time in a Mexican jail instead of an American jail a "privilege".

[Guy Montag]

Cesar,

I did not know that getting deported from the USA gained a jail term in Mexico. Got any documentation on that?

[Cesar]

I did not know that getting deported from the USA gained a jail term in Mexico. Got any documentation on that?

I'm note sure it does Guy, I was just making a joke. I too would want them to spend time in prison before being deported.

[Frito Bandito]

I wade to America and get drivers license
Drivers license register you to vote
I vote for Hilary

[J sub D]

Guy Montag, You're an ass if you support torture. To be more accurate, you're a low-life, scumbag, cowardly, inhumane piece of shit, lacking any semblence of humanity or compassion if you support torture. If it bothers you to be perceived that way by rational, moral people, too fucking bad.

[Frito\'s Enemy]

We don't need no stinkin' licenses!

[M]

Guy, or anyone who knows, what's the difference between the == in, for example

I am missing the the whole marxist == libertarian thing

and a single =?

Thanks.

[Guy Montag]

Pacificsts J sub D express themselves in amazing ways. I should go into hiding before he pacifies me to death or something.

I dread the milk and cookie torture. That should be sufficient to extract any information the military needs to determine the disposition of the enemy.

Olease, J sub D, your ugly words may force me to reveal my banking information and the location of the secret location in the Pentagon remains of Jimmy Hoffa.

OMG! See what you did with your crafty tactics!

[Guy Montag]

M,

thr double = is sometimes used in programming of various sorts and frequently escapes into online conversations by folk with a geekish background.

Now,I must go back into hiding before Jsub D tortures me with pr0n.

[Guy Montag]

Oh, for those of you who are not in the know about J sub D's accusations, he is upset that I am not in lockstep with his declairation of a no-longer-used interrigation tactic as constituting torture. Therefore, he has declaired me to be in support of torture.

[Grand Chalupa]

I think the "Dirty Mexicans love big government" argument is pretty weak. We have big government in the United States because non-Hispanics voted for it overwhelmingly. We can't really pin that one on the Dirty Mexicans. You may consider that Hispanic support for the Democrat party indicates a predilection to want even bigger government, but we really don't have enough data to be sure of that.

I respectfully disagree my friend. Even if immigration didn't exist Hispanics would be a natural constituent of the Democratic party.

Pat Buchanan's latest book has a chapter called "The Suicide of the GOP". Among the evidence he presents...

In the Civil Rights inititative of 1996, Hispanics voted overwhelmingly for affirmative action and ethnic prefrences. Californians as a whole voted the other way in a landslide.

Prop 187 in California was a ballot initiative to end welfare support for illegal immigrants. This got 64 percent of the white vote, 56 percent of the black vote, 57 percent of the Asian vote 31 percent of the Hispanic vote.

In 1996, Bill Clinton took seventy percent of the Latino vote. The highest a Republican has ever managed has been Ronald Regan who got 44% in 1984.

In the Nixon and Regan 49 state landslide 96% of their votes came from white people.

Believing a poor, third world underclass is not naturally going to vote for the party of government is wishful thinking. And if you read Samuel Huntington's work you'll see that Hispanics well into the third generation continue to do poorly at school and have high rates of crime and illigitamacy. In other words, natural born Democrats.

[Grand Chalupa]

It generally means "the people", dumbshit.

La raza isn't very scary. Its nothing more than a social club rich third generation hispanics join so they can pretend they really care about the new immigrants. Theres very little connection between the two groups, but white supremacists like to pretend otherwise.

How does a self-hating white like yourself explain MEChA?

[crimethink]

he is upset that I am not in lockstep with his declairation of a no-longer-used interrigation tactic as constituting torture.

What level security clearance do you have, that enables you to know what interrogation techniques we're currently using? The administration refuses to confirm or deny that we currently waterboard, supposedly to prevent that knowledge falling into the hands of moronic terrorists (who nonetheless remain the greatest threat America has ever faced).

[Cesar]

How does a self-hating white like yourself explain MEChA?

Dude, I'm not white I'm mixed. But I guess I'm "hispanic" in the sense Barack Obama is "Black".

How does a self-hating white like yourself explain MEChA?

You don't know what a Mecha is? Haven't you ever played Metal Head?

Mecha, also known as meka or mechs, are walking vehicles controlled by a pilot. Mecha are generally, though not necessarily, bipedal. In most science fiction stories in which they appear, mecha are war machines: essentially armored fighting vehicles with legs instead of treads or wheels(there are some exceptions). Some stories, such as the Japanese manga Patlabor, also encompass mecha used for civilian purposes such as heavy construction work, police functions, or firefighting.

Oh, you mean MEChA?

MEChA is one of those organizations that were radical in the 60s, but much like the SDS their activities are pretty much now confined to petitioning for new student centers and teaching people to make Aztec arts and crafts. Yeah, we should all be real scared scared of MEChA.

[J sub D]

Cesar, you must be so confused. Being 50% "self-hating white" and 50% inauthentic Mexican, you must constantly wonder what canned ideology to follow. If you'd like, declare yourself Irish. You just have to hate the limeys, drink like a fish, and breed like a rabbit. We offer great whisky and volatile redheaded women! We're presently accepting applications at the Reagan library and the Kennedy compound.

Think about it. 😉

[Cesar]

Cesar, you must be so confused. Being 50% "self-hating white" and 50% inauthentic Mexican, you must constantly wonder what canned ideology to follow. If you'd like, declare yourself Irish. You just have to hate the limeys, drink like a fish, and breed like a rabbit. We offer great whisky and volatile redheaded women! We're presently accepting applications at the Reagan library and the Kennedy compound.

My other half is redneck Scots-Irish, so I don't know whether to put on a sombrero and plan my super-secret secret reconquista of the James River Valley or just get wasted on Busch while watching NASCAR.

[iih]

Chalupa:

I asked you this before and have never answered me.

Give me a list of what constitutes one's (your) culture. Then give me a list of how immigrants endanger each one of these cultural components. But lets talk in concrete terms.

Culture is a mental construct. If it is not dynamic it becomes a dogma. Surely you don't to be dogmatic, do you?

[J sub D]

Oh, for those of you who are not in the know about J sub D's accusations, he is upset that I am not in lockstep with his declairation [sic] of a no-longer-used interrigation [sic] tactic as constituting torture. Therefore, he has declaired [sic] me to be in support of torture.

It's not torture! We only did it a few times! We don't do it anymore! We stopped (or outsouced it) because ???. But really, it's not torture. It's more like a fraternity initiation. You guys are such pussies who don't understand the value of the information that we can't get any other way. Plus you support the Islamofascist terrorists!

See Guy, I understand your arguments completely. Feel better?

[Grand Chalupa]

Give me a list of what constitutes one's (your) culture. Then give me a list of how immigrants endanger each one of these cultural components. But lets talk in concrete terms.

Culture is a mental construct. If it is not dynamic it becomes a dogma. Surely you don't to be dogmatic, do you?

I've talked in concrete terms. Hispanics have high crimes rates, low test scores, high rates of illigitimacy, and embrace big government. I've provided abundant evidence for each one of these claims. That's why they're bad for the country.
.

[Bingo]

Since when is America about fucking test scores? This country is founded on the ideal of freedom and individual liberty and the opportunity to grow as an individual.

[J sub D]

I've talked in concrete terms. Hispanics have high crimes rates, low test scores, high rates of illigitimacy, and embrace big government. I've provided abundant evidence for each one of these claims. That's why they're bad for the country.

Compared to Asian immigrants, native born Americans have "high crime rates", "low test scores", "high rates of illegitimacy" and "embrace big governmet". That's why they are "bad for the country".
Let's all get together and kick ourselves out!

[Franklin]

Think of this... back in 1926, in the enlightened state of Mississippi, in a case called Fisher v. State, the state's highest court ordered the retrial of a convicted murderer because his confession was secured by a local sheriff's use of the water cure.

So, in Mississippi, in the 1920's, a black male's conviction was overturned because waterboarding was a form of torture. Today, not so sure. We sure have come a long way.

[iih]

Hispanics have high crimes rates

Crime is not a cultural thing. It is a social problem that prevails across many different kinds of communities. Is crime what defines "Hispanic culture"? Does one have to sign a form saying that one will be a criminal in order to be a member of the "Hispanic culture"? Most definitely not! Seriously, dude, are you sure you are in some sort of college? Someone said UC Boulder. How do you even survive in that "culture".

low test scores

Hispanic culture does not require having low test scores to qualify as Hispanic, does it?

high rates of illigitimacy

Huh?

embrace big government.

Yeah, all that big government European Socialism thing never happened. Yeah, and those people in MA and other "blue" states, they are all non-white fascists indeed!

[prolefeed]

Guy Montag -- I got beat up over the "no government involvement in marriage" thing, too. But no need to cuss out Fluffy for asking a clarifying question. Just clarify it -- once.

[Guy Montag]

What level security clearance do you have, that enables you to know what interrogation techniques we're currently using? The administration refuses to confirm or deny that we currently waterboard, supposedly to prevent that knowledge falling into the hands of moronic terrorists (who nonetheless remain the greatest threat America has ever faced).

I know about it the same way you do, through the official relases and investigation reports.

BTW, clearance is irrelevant here, it is an need-to-know issue and yours is no greater than mine in this issue either, unless you are holding out on us.

Oh, wait, we must have never used it because the government told us that we did, right?

[BakedPenguin]

Let's all get together and kick ourselves out!

I'm with ya, J sub D - I always knew my kind was trouble. And I took my job!

[Trying so hard to follow the d]

Penguins blanche when baked?

[Mad Max]

Ron Paul: Pre-Godwinned for your convenience!

[tarran]

Guy, or anyone who knows, what's the difference between the == in, for example

I am missing the the whole marxist == libertarian thing

and a single =?

M,

In C, Java and related programming languages = is an assigns a value, while == is used to check for equality.

For example,

If a = 3, and b = 5, then

if ( a = b ) {
printf("a = %d, b = %d",a,b);
}

would result in the statement 'a = 5, b = 5' being printed. the reason: in the if statement, a is assigned b's value, and then since the assignment is succesful, the conditional section is executed.

OTOH
if ( a == b ) {
printf("a = %d, b = %d",a,b);
}

would result in nothing being printed since a wasn't equal to b, and the conditional block would be skipped as the test fails.

Incidentally, the syntax for a 'not equal' comparison (true if a is not equal to b) would be '!=' as in:

if ( a != b ) {
printf("a and b are not equal!");
} else {
printf("a and b *are* equal!");
}

[Mike Laursen]

Will racism be eliminated through government laws or through serious discourse?

The best method of ending racism is serious intercourse between the races.

[M]

Thank you, tarran. I almost fear to ask what the designator for "approximately equals" is, traditionally the wavy equal sign like two stacked tildes (another indicator of the March of the Sombreri, btw).

[Mike Laursen]

Looking at news and reading history, it seems to me the most obvious thing in the world that linguistic, racial and religious diversity is a weekness of a nation.

When you were reading all of this history, did you catch anything about the evolution of a linguistically-diverse language called "English"? Or about a little-known racially and religiously-diverse backwater nation called the United States of America?

[Mike Laursen]

Another trait libertarians share with marxists is a tendency to create personality cults.

A trait they both share with the entire human race.

[Fluffy]

Looking at news and reading history, it seems to me the most obvious thing in the world that linguistic, racial and religious diversity is a weekness of a nation.

Yeah, that Switzerland is a real shithole.

[Cesar]

Looking at news and reading history, it seems to me the most obvious thing in the world that linguistic, racial and religious diversity is a weekness of a nation.

Only in backward nations like oh, Lebanon and Yugoslavia. Western nations (Belgium, Switzerland, Canada, the United States, and Brazil for example) can get along just fine.