The Skull and Bones Conspiracy Zaps My Alma Mater

UF student tasered for asking John Kerry about Skull and Bones. (And not going quietly when cops tried to escort him out.) Kerry was trying to answer the "very important" question as cops dragged than tasered Andrew Meyer.

While anyone who has had to deal with monomaniacal blowhards at public question sessions feels a forbidden tug of sympathy for the cops, I hope all of us who aren't pawns of the Skull and Bones conspiracy can agree the tasering was an overreaction.

Previous bits by me on the scintillating topic of tasers here and here.

UPDATE: Here's the video, to save you all a few seconds of searching. Man, it's like all of life is a TV show…. 

Comments

[sage]

Shocking.

[Blue]

That's a taserin'

[Pro Libertate]

What? The victim was a Gator?

This, of course, means war. Elis should be aware that UF has its own thermonuclear weapons. Ahem.

[joe]

Way, way, way out of line.

Grab the kid, haul his ass out.

You don't need to taser someone who's lying on the ground in handcuffs. You do that because you want to.

[CLS]

Surely tasers should be limited to serious situations -- like 9/11 Truthers.

[bigbigslacker]

And there was applause form the crowd. Its amazing that a crowd of people would allow that to happen, and even applaud. But then again, we might all clap too if something so exciting happened after listening to John Kerry drone on and on for two hours straight. They are not to blame.

[picaro]

College is a learning experience.

Yesterday students observed the unthinking brutality of "peace" officers.

[Ralphy]

Hey joe, did you even watch the video? They tasered him because he was struggling so much and resisting all efforts to get him out of the room. He was NOT in handcuffs until AFTER he was tased. That's why they had to taser him.

I just watched the video, and while 99% of the time I think cops are moronic thugs, in this case they reacted with incredible patience and professionalism. If the kid has just calmly walked out of the room when he was asked to shut up, or if he had even just sit down, all of this could have been avoided. Instead, he decided to try to fight the cops and called out for others to "help" him fight the cops.

What a jack-ass.

[joe]

Yes, I watched the video. You're wrong, Ralphy. They tasered him when he was already on the ground.

The reporter who shot the video reports that he was cuffed when they tasered him.

[Fluffy]

In other news, where's Edward? I wanted to point out that Ron Paul is higher in the most recent national Gallup poll than his buddy Bill Richardson.

[dead_elvis]

If tasering is going to be connected in any way with a secret campus society, the proper use of resources would have been to send the cops to hunt down anyone having to do with the making of "The Skulls" and giving them a good tasering.

[JM]

I bet John Kerry gets asked about Skull & Bones by conspiracy nuts all of the time and probably could have answered the guy on his own. Public speakers get heckled, protested, and asked stupid questions all of the time and the speakers manage to either handle it or have the person removed with minimal force.

Obviously this kid wasn't very smart for running away from the cops and screaming and acting like a nut but there was probably a more civil way to handle the situation.

[Eric S.]

Joe,

While I agree with you they were way out of line, where does the reporter indicate the student was actually in cuffs when tasered? I didn't see that in the video.

[Bill]

Gestapo pigs are some of the most useless scum on the Earth. They tasered him because they wanted to. They carry guns because they want to shoot people. They never see justice when they do wrong. They are basically the bullies of society and are given way too much power.

[joe]

Eric S.,

I saw it on CNN this morning. There was more than just the video from the event there.

[rho]

This story has everything: loudmouth leftist gets tasered; campus rent-a-cops look terrible; and John Kerry looks like an ineffectual, blundering idiot.

I bet they watch this clip in Heaven.

[Reinmoose]

They were confused, obviously. They should have tasered John Kerry for terrorizing the audience.

[Schutz]

The kid may have been hostile, but do we not have the right to ask, in a public forum no less, anything of our speakers? To be dragged out and tasered for asking questions does not portend a free society.

[Terrorific]

What ever happened to just throwing people out their asses?

[Aresen]

While anyone who has had to deal with monomaniacal blowhards at public question sessions

Are you talking about Sen. Kerry or the guy who was tasered?

[Terrorific]

What ever happened to just throwing people out their asses?

Of course I meant "out on their asses. I think being thrown out a cop's ass is far worse than being tasered.

[ChicagoTom]

You don't need to taser someone who's lying on the ground in handcuffs. You do that because you want to.

Agreed.

Furthermore, the problem with tasers is that cops use them as cattle-prods in order to force compliance.

I remember a time when the police were first being armed with tasers and the constant reassurances that the tasers were merely a non-lethal way to subdue unruly criminals who posed a direct threat to either themselves, the people around them or the police.

Instead what we are seeing are police repeatedly going the "comply with my order or I will taser you" route and at times tasering people for not complying quick enough.

If 6 cops are on top of you, and you are restrained, even if you are struggling, there is no legitimate reason to taser someone other than to add pain and suffering as a punishment for non-compliance. It's a very minor form of torture and there is absolutely no reason why it should be allowed.

If the subject isn't threatening violence or being physically violent, there is no excuse for cops to taser people.

[sr2]

I just watched the video, and while 99% of the time I think cops are moronic thugs, in this case they reacted with incredible patience and professionalism. If the kid has just calmly walked out of the room when he was asked to shut up, or if he had even just sit down, all of this could have been avoided. Instead, he decided to try to fight the cops and called out for others to "help" him fight the cops.

What a jack-ass.

Really? In this case you're NOT going with "cops as moronic thugs"???

What crime did the student commit again? What did he do that justified ANY sort of law enforcement, let alone the treatment this kid received??

He was asking questions. Albeit, stupid questions, but they were simple, non-threatening, non-interruptive, nonsensical questions. There was nothing that necessitated law enforcement.

I agree with Shutz...free societies cannot exist when we make speaking your mind a criminal act.

[Brandybuck]

While I completely disagree with the tasering, I'm unable to summon any sympathy for this nutbag conspiracist.

As Alex Jones showed last week, what better way to validate your belief that the cops are part of the conspiracy than to deliberately get yourself arrested?

[ChicagoTom]

What crime did the student commit again? What did he do that justified ANY sort of law enforcement, let alone the treatment this kid received??

In fairness, what I have read in other accounts is that the Q & A session was cut short because Kerry spoke longer than expected, and that this guy was running around trying to get to the mike once he realized they weren't gonna get to him Q. Once he got to an open mic he actually cut off some other questioner mid-question when he started his diatribe. He supposedly even stated that the police had threatened him with arrest.

Now none of this, IMHO, warrants being tasered, but I could see how that type of behavior would warrant him being thrown out.

[Episiarch]

Maybe if they has tasered Kerry he would have come to life. Spark up the lecture, as it were.

Oh, and cops are fucking pigs. Tasers are just an excuse for them to zap somebody who is giving them even the slightest bit of trouble.

Before tasers, they couldn't go around shooting anybody who gave them trouble, and had to actually wrestle them down and cuff them (and I'm sure they got in plenty of rabbit punches and kidney shots too). Not fun, I realize, but hey, that's the job. It's a good motivator to defuse a situation if at all possible.

Now, it's taser time if you sneeze while they have their knee in your back on the floor, or ask why you are on the floor with a knee in your back.

[sr2]

Now none of this, IMHO, warrants being tasered, but I could see how that type of behavior would warrant him being thrown out.

Again, what law did he violate that made it necessary for the police to get involved? He did not break any laws. He was annoying and said things that either Kerry or the organizers, and perhaps the audience, didn't want to hear. Last time I checked it's not against the law to be an annoying loudmouth.

It's just, well, annoying.

[JBJB]

Moonbats getting tasered ought to be a pay per view sport.

[Randolph Carter]

Since no one else has said it, getting tazed SUCKS. SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS. It's interesting that we allow police to rack peoples' bodies with excruciating pain when they aren't being violent.

How would people feel if the police started wailing on him with billy clubs? Is it because the tazing is "clean" while the beating is "dirty" (blood, possible blunt force injuries, etc.) that it's acceptable?

[joe]

sr2,

It is a trespass to be an annoying loudmouth in a room when the room's owners (or their designees) tell you to leave or stop.

[de stijl]

I thought UF students like to do the Gator Dance.

[joe]

I'm sure the people who are ok with the kid being tasered would be ok with him being bounced off the walls of the police van, too, Randolph.

[joe]

Don't be hatin' on all cops.

They don't act like that where I live.

Which also happened to have the largest drop in crime of any city in American during the 1990s.

Almost as if relating to the people you are supposed to be serving, instead of viewing them the way an occupying army looks at the locals, is an useful strategy for the police.

Somebody link to Robert's Rules. I gotta go pick up the kid.

[Episiarch]

Don't be hatin' on all cops.

I understand what you are saying joe, but it has come to the point where I can't draw any distinctions any more.

The cops that aren't abusive still look the other way for the ones that are, and that makes them complicit. Pretty much all cops have one standard of rules that apply to them, and another that applies to the rest of us. It's why they become cops. Would you become a cop if it weren't for the power you would have?

Even the "good" cops cover for other cops (caught your cop buddy DUI? Drive him home--no court and fines for him, etc.); they get their families and friends out of trouble; and if they are in a bad mood or really dislike someone they can make their life hell.

These are all hallmarks of power corrupting, something that we have know about since the beginning of civilization. Why anyone could seriously think that not all cops are at least nominally crooked (even if that is just getting your nephew out of a speeding ticket) is beyond me.

[Rattlesnake Jake]

In my neighborhood in Channelview, Texas, there was this big mentally retarded young black man who was peering into a mailbox. A policeman stopped him and asked what he was doing. The suspect got scared and ran into his house. The policeman called for help and several of them busted into the suspect's house. They all tased him until they killed him. My wife saw the policemen walking out of the house laughing about it.

[wingnutx]

You can see clearly from this angle that he was tasered before he was cuffed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE

[Nash]

Forcibly removed from the forum for cutting in line and acting totally obnoxious: Fine

Beat up, Tasered and then Arrested: Not Fine.

People cheering that he was getting his ass kicked for asking a question and being a jerk about it: Sad.

[Vanessa]

"I remember a time when the police were first being armed with tasers and the constant reassurances that the tasers were merely a non-lethal way to subdue unruly criminals who posed a direct threat to either themselves, the people around them or the police."

Exactly. When a person can be physically harmed by the cops for a non-violent offense such as this, we've already slipped way down the slope. This was way out of line regardless of if he was trespassing or talking over someone.

[jimmy smith]

Good thing he wasn't Midle Eastern looking. Things might have gotten really serious. That's why police have to carry guns. After all, it's for freedom, democracy and the children. Questioning is out of the question.

[Scooby]

Joe:

Don't be hatin' on all cops.

They don't act like that where I live.

Don't they just shoot rubber bullets at the faces of coeds in your neck of the woods? I know, I know- isolated incident.

There are cops that are not scumsacks, but as long as cop omerta exists (the "blue wall of silence"), there are no "good" cops.

[KenK]

"reassurances that the tasers were merely a non-lethal way to subdue unruly criminals who posed a direct threat"

Yeah, it was all "better than shooting to kill" back then. Now it's just a method to torture anyone who does not immediately respect their "authoritah". And it's so much more convenient than dropping tear gas in their eyes and there's no unsightly bruising from night-sticking, just a few burn marks.

It wasn't a choice between a gun and a tazer in this case, at least I hope it wasn't.

[WalterBoswell]

What a nervous society you got there, and as for the rent-a-cops who can't even get someone out of a room without resorting to a taser, Jesus Christ, fire 'em, fire 'em good.

[Touchstone]

Man, it's like all of life is a TV show....

Sounds pretty modern! But if that is as you like it, then it must be good! 🙂

[matt]

I am all for political discussion, however this asshole had no intention of discussing anything, he immediately began his rant without any intention of allowing senator Kerry to answer, he was dressed like a frat boy on a friday night completely undermining his credibility as an interested and intelligent person concerned with issues and truth. He started running and screaming like a complete pussy because he didn't have the foresight to realize his behavior and his attitude would result in his forcible(and reasonable)removal from the forum. I applaud the upd for their action. I take as much issue with the current political landscape as the next person, but frankly I would rather deal with another four years of Bush than have to deal with the ridiculous, immature, and disrespectful treatment of officers of the law and political figures that this country's citizens (youn and old) insist upon engaging in. If you want to trap a politician in scandal or lies then you have to be more wily and more patient than your prey. And you cannot act like a raving lunatic in the presence of a high level politician and not expect to be restrained. freedom of speech is not the issue here, personal security of the senator in a public situation is paramount. if you want the senator to respond and the cops to back off then act like a rational person not a spun out imbicile with an overactive sense of "political and social duty"

"He who speaks first finishes last!"

[rho]

People cheering that he was getting his ass kicked for asking a question and being a jerk about it: Sad.

Eh, I don't think he should have been tasered either, but that doesn't spoil my amusement at the spectacle. Maybe I'm just not a good person.

[joe]

Scooby,

If you can't tell the difference between an accident and an assault, the hell with you.

[Scooby]

Joe,
If you can't tell the difference between an "accident" and reckless disregard for human life, to hell with you.

[Craig]

Okay, so the guy was being disruptive. Big deal. Walk him out of the room, and don't let him back in. Are the cops so ineffective that two or three of them couldn't escort him out of the room professionally, on his feet?

Most of the criticism is for tasering the guy without any reason, after he was pinned, but why did he need to be wrestled to the floor in the first place? He was unarmed and no threat to anyone.

[joe]

No one's saying it was a good idea to use that crowd-dispersal device by someone standing in the crowd, Scooby. That was downright stupid.

It's still rather different than holding someone down, shocking him a few times while he begs for mercy, then smiling about it.

[Scooby]

As long as it's criminal stupidity that gets people killed, and not downright malice, I guess it's OK.

I'm sure you've read the Stern report. It doesn't portray the Boston cops "relating to the people you are supposed to be serving, instead of viewing them the way an occupying army looks at the locals."

Anyway... sorry for implying that Boston cops love to misuse "less-lethal" weaponry just as much as other cops. I now see that they don't do it for fun, but because they are too stupid to know better.

[SeeingI]

What crime did this kid commit? Disturbing the peace AT MOST. He was asking questions in an open forum which Kerry apparently had every intention of answering. Every one of those cops should lose their jobs. And every student who applauded should hang their heads in shame.

[Rick H.]

That "kyle" comment spam is about as relevant to H&R as a penis-enlarging mortgage on my cialis prescription. Will someone please 86 this creep?

[bigbigslacker]

The aftermath is interesting:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ec_1190097717&p=1

I'd expect more use of tazers when dealing with larger pools of bitch cops.

[J sub D]

How would people feel if the police started wailing on him with billy clubs? Is it because the tazing is "clean" while the beating is "dirty" (blood, possible blunt force injuries, etc.) that it's acceptable?

Yep. More people should get a good jolt at least once in their lives, so they know what it feels like.

[J sub D]

That "kyle" comment spam is about as relevant to H&R as a penis-enlarging mortgage on my cialis prescription. Will someone please 86 this creep?

Seconded.

[joe]

So now you're backpedaling from claiming the two were equivalent to making smarmy quips about what is "OK."

This is not a terribly difficult concept for people with an adult, or even older child, level of moral development.

The guy who accidently runs your sister over isn't as bad as the guy who kidnaps her and goes all Silence of the Lambs on her for fun. Even if she dies from being hit by the car.

Grow the hell up.

[Eric the .5b]

That second link is a much better shot of the event.

Yep. More people should get a good jolt at least once in their lives, so they know what it feels like.

I'm starting to think that this is true.

This guy was unarmed. He was fucking pinned down. He wasn't attacking anyone, he was trying to get out of their grip. The taser is supposed to be a more humane replacement for a gun, not a tool for physically restraining or torturing a suspect.

Or, to simplify things - if these thugs hadn't had a taser, would anyone with half a brain think they would have been justified to pull out a pistol and shoot him in the head while they held him down?

[Warty]

I got a speeding ticket the other day. Therefore, all police are subhuman monsters. Kill 'em all, says I.

[Scooby]

Joe,
That's a brilliant dismantling of a wicked strawman there.

I never said that the incidents were identical, but I do think they both dwell on the same moral plane. I do claim that indiscriminately firing projectile weapons into crowds (such as occurred in the Boston police murder/manslaughter of Victoria Snelgrove) shows such reckless disregard for the well-being of others as to be, at a minimum, criminally negligent homicide. Is this better or worse than behavior that, if a "civilian" did it, would be aggravated assault? I'd say both are criminal behavior that demonstrates an "us v. them" attitude in the cops that you claim doesn't occur in your neck of the woods. Thug behavior is thug behavior.

You made the claim that cops "don't act like that where I live" and "Almost as if relating to the people you are supposed to be serving, instead of viewing them the way an occupying army looks at the locals, is an useful strategy for the police." I'd say the evidence indicates that at least some cops in your area do look at you, the regular citizen, as a "them" rather than an "us".

[Stretch]

Anyone who says "Don't tase me, bro" to a cop probably deserves to be tased.

But in all seriousness, the tasing was way over the top. I agree that this kid was working himself up to a fever pitch even before the cops tried to escort him out...and then he went a little haywire. I mean, once a cop grabs your arm and tries to escort you out, the worst possible thing you could do is wrestle away from him and start screaming and flailing. Especially in the presence of a high-ranking politician.

But once you have him restrained on the ground, you have to be pretty awful at your job or be a pretty awful human being to start tasing him.

[Syd]

Imagine what they would have done if he'd ranted about Swift Boats.

[Charlie]

"It is a trespass to be an annoying loudmouth in a room when the room's owners (or their designees) tell you to leave or stop."

It was a public forum at a public university.

[joe]

Scooby,

Since it was your argument about the two events occupying the same "moral plane" that I dismantled, the term "straw man" doesn't apply. Yup, I got that you were comoparing their moral status. That's what I so brilliantly demolished.

And since you can describe it as "manslaughter," then you are capable of acknowledging that harms one does not intend carry less moral baggage than harms you deliberately set out inflict.

Thank you for finally admitting the obvious point I made.

Charlie,

Forums to which the public are invited, in a public university, are still not places where you can act as you please.

What if the guy had jumped on the stage and grabbed the mike from Kerry? Same public forum, same public university.

[John]

Unless he was told to leave and refused, the cops had no right to grab him in the first place. Even a public forum has a moderator who can request someone leave if they become disruptive, which this guy probably was. It doesn't look like he was ever asked to leave freely, making the premise of his apprehension unlawful.

[Scooby]

Joe,
Sure, whatever. If you need to be right, you can be "right."

For the record, though, manslaughter is generally punished more severely than the various degrees of assault. Intentionally doing things that can kill someone (and recklessly killing someone through those actions) is worse than intentionally doing something that cause momentary physical pain. Both are really bad when done under color of authority. Those Boston cops were doing evil when they started playing Yosemite Sam with their pepper ball guns. They were doing evil when they shot at people hanging at dangerous heights from the rafters. They were doing evil when they shot multiple shots at people attempting to get medical attention. The chain of command and the prosecutors did evil when they blew off issuing any meaningful sanction for the evil behavior.

I'll grant that the Boston police manslaughter of an innocent coed doesn't equal "Silence of the Lambs". I would hope that you would grant that tasing a resisting arrestee also doesn't equal "Silence of the Lambs."

[Jon H]

Southern cops. Stupid fucking animals. Their punishment should involve some quality time with Michael Vick.

More generally, a good first step would be banning the use of shock weapons by anyone south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Northern towns would then be cleaned up on a case-by-case basis whenever some asshole cop gets out of line.

[thoreau]

As part of the Skull and [redacted] Class of [redacted for security purposes] at the University of [redacted] I can neither confirm nor deny that this is in any way related to the recent arrest of OJ Simpson.

[Steve in Clearwater]

Well, as someone who has been an active participant in public acts of civil disobedience with people who really understand the law, I'm sorry to say that this kid really effs it up almost from the git-go.

He persistently in physical fashion resists arrest which unfortunately provides the cops with reasonable cause (in today's overly punitive leeway given to them) to both cuff him and then tase him.

His verbal hysteria (rather feigned imho) once they hit the auditorium lobby is a nice textbook example of how NOT to behave when in such a role and when he had plenty of video and audio support.

"They're going to kill me" just moves him from the realm of rational civil disobedience into the realm of sillyness to most any even-handed viewer.

Or to put it another way - If a guy can't get ME on his side, he's very likely to strike out with the public at large.

[Steve in Clearwater]

Going back to his time at the microphone, I'll note that he seems clearly a byproduct of watching way too much 21st century "news interview" programming.

To wit: The most common tactic of an unprofessional journalist (see Bill OReilly for a perfect example) is rather than ask a question (five seconds), he feels compelled to make a "preface statement" which takes 30 to 60 seconds.

IOW, he's not truly interested in asking a question and getting an answer. Rather, he just wants to make a 60 second speech with his own opinion. That's classic O'Reilly style.

While that can be a great method when you're 100% in control of the microphone and format, it's a lousy method when you are truly asked to limit yourself to asking a question or two - which I presume was the intended use of the microphone at this public event.

[whit]

"The taser is supposed to be a more humane replacement for a gun"

absolutely false. please check any model use-of-force spectrum or any other literature on the taser.

it is NOT a replacement for a gun. it is a less-lethal (aka non-lethal) weapon, similar to pepper spray or a baton.

it is true that in some circ's, the presence of a taser (especially when there is a cover officer with his handgun drawn) can be used to de-escalate a situation without the use of a gun, where one would otherwise be used. but a taser is NOT a gun substitute. period.

in most use of force spectrums, tasers are authorized when subjects are aggressively resisting, or assume a fighting stance, or are assaultive, etc.

i am not getting into whether the tasing was justified. i am correcting the erroneous misperception as to taser's place on a use of force spectrum. in most UOF spectrum, taser is BELOW the baton and hand strikes. in some it is above irritants (pepper spray) and below CN/CS (considered higher level than capsicum spray) and certainly below a baton. a gun, or other deadly force (such as running the person over with a car, or baton strike to head etc.) is far above tasers.

[whit]

"It was a public forum at a public university."

correct. the forum was put on by the U of F, and they had the right to set rules. just because it was public (in the regards of being sponsored by a state university) does not mean they cannot set rules.

for example, what if the guy got up and started yelling continuously, in the middle of kerry's speech... would the organizers have the right to ask him to leave? of course.

the fact is the guy ran down the aisle and cut in line to get to the mic. then, he was allowed to speak even though he cut in front of several people. he ranted on in his question, and a rep from the university (outlined in the report i read) gave the "cut the mike" signal (this was witnessed by several there)at which point the mike was cut.

THEN, he continued on sans microphone. accoridng to witness accounts, he claimed to already (prior to his speaking) been engaged in some sort of "discussion" with the campus police (details are sketchy).

regardless, after all that occurred, this professional "scene maker" (refer to his website for his proud list of heckling accomplishments- ken griffey. etc) was requested to leave by campus police, AGAIN acting on the authority of the university who was putting on the forum. sorry, but they DO have the right to eject people.

and if he had agreed to leave, no problemo. except he didn't. started pushing, leaping, swinging his arms, etc. the wild rumpus thus ensued. it was when he refused (by actions and words) to LEAVE, that he committed a crime.

if you operate on the premise that the U of F does not have the right to eject people who they deem disorderly, then you accept that anybody can stand up during any speech by anybody and rant on endlessly and nobody can say stop OR ELSE. you gotta have an 'or else'

i don't know about U of F's use of force policy in re: tasers nor can i tell enough details from the video to tell if the tasering was justified.

i can tell, based on model use of force policies, etc. that other than that, the force was reasonable and appropriate and lawful, as far as i can tell.

actually, they were pretty restrained.

[whit]

"More generally, a good first step would be banning the use of shock weapons by anyone south of the Mason-Dixon line."

if there is one thing consistent with taser employment by larger agencies (where there is enough sample incidents ... that's why i reference them) tasers have universally reduced officer involved shootings, reduced injury rates to officers, reduced injury rates to arrestees, and reduced lawsuit payouts.

feel free to check the FBI Law Enforcement Journal or various other articles you could find online.

i do think, that much like ANY new gizmo, the "gee whiz neato new toy" syndrome does result in unnecessary tasings on occasion

[whit]

"This guy was unarmed."

while this was found to be true, it was not KNOWN to the cops when they tased him. whether or not he was armed was NOT known to them (although presumably whatever he had wasn't metal, since i assume they metal screened people at a kerry event).

and of course, when he is flailing, even if unarmed, he is using his fists/arms as weapons, and may also grab an officers weapon if not restrained.

the operative assumption also is that tasers are only used against people who are armed. not true. check the use of force spectrums. certainly not a requirement for taser application.

"He was fucking pinned down. He wasn't attacking anyone, he was trying to get out of their grip. The taser is supposed to be a more humane replacement for a gun, not a tool for physically restraining or torturing a suspect".

no, it's not. already addressed, tasers are not gun substitutes.

[whit]

"What crime did this kid commit?"

in repeatedly refusing to leave, he committed the crime of trespass (after notice) and then resisting.

" Disturbing the peace AT MOST. He was asking questions in an open forum which Kerry apparently had every intention of answering. Every one of those cops should lose their jobs. And every student who applauded should hang their heads in shame."

the cops did not make the decision to cut the mikes. the cops were tasked with removing the guy. and he resisted. the idea that the cops made the decision to cut the mike, or remove him is not supported by evidence. the report (try reading it before forming opinions) states otherwise. the director of the event made those decisions. rightly or wrongly.

given that decision, when he refused to leave, and started flailing at the cops, THAT's when he became a (suspected) criminal

[whit]

"Okay, so the guy was being disruptive. Big deal. Walk him out of the room, and don't let him back in."

the cops TRIED that. it obviously DID NOT WORK

" Are the cops so ineffective that two or three of them couldn't escort him out of the room professionally, on his feet?"

apparently so. no comments on the two women cops and the fat male cop, though 🙂

but it is not as easy as it looks on TJ hooker.

"Most of the criticism is for tasering the guy without any reason, after he was pinned,"

you are assuming (begging the question) "without any reason".

" but why did he need to be wrestled to the floor in the first place? He was unarmed and no threat to anyone."

that he was unarmed was not clear until AFTER he was handcuffed AND searched.

that he was no threat is also not known. his actions were certainly indicative of a highly agitated, aggressive person and he did NOT submit. he resisted. that escalated the situation. if the cops hadn't pinned him (after ineffectually trying to escort him out) and he had run for the stage, would he had been a threat. furthermore, UNTIL they pinned him, this one idiot monopolized several officer's attention, such that they could not provide generalized security. iow, the faster they got him under control, the faster they could return to providing security for the entire room, and not just histrionics-boy (tm).

i don't KNOW (do you ) what the position of his hands were when he was tased. IF he was handcuffed behind the back BEFORE being tased, i would have serious issues with the tasing aspect. from what i could see in the video, i couldn't tell

[whit]

excerpts from the report follow. as i suspected, they did NOT have him handcuffed when tased. they had the handcuff on one hand and were trying to get the other hand close enough to cuff them together. not sure where his other hand was. if under the body and holding on to a belt loop, this can be very difficult to overcome. many people receive rather serious injuries (sprains, breaks, etc.) when officers try to wrench their arms together in situations like this fwiw

confirming that (among other things), "At that point, police reported that ACCENT Director Max Tyroler turned off Meyer's microphone and asked police to escort him out of the auditorium, saying, "He had said enough," according to Officer Mallo's report."

GAINESVILLE - Police have released the incident report detailing the Tasering of a University of Florida student during a campus forum with Sen. John Kerry Monday, and the officer who actually Tasered Andrew Meyer wrote in the report that Meyer later told police, "You didn't do anything wrong."

In the 12-page report, which gives accounts of the incident from the perspective of eight different officers who were present Monday afternoon, Officer Nicole Mallo writes that Meyer would only resist officers when cameras were present.

"As (Meyer) was escorted down stairs (at the University Auditorium) with no cameras in sight, he remained quiet, but once the cameras made their way down stairs he started screaming and yelling again," Mallo wrote.

Mallo was one of two officers who actually rode in the vehicle as Meyer was escorted to the Alachua County jail, and she said said he told them during the ride: "I am not mad at you guys, you didn't do anything wrong, you were just trying to do your job," according to Mallo's account.

Mallo also wrote in her report that he asked, at one point, if cameras would be present at the jail.

The report details the events leading up to Meyer's arrest, saying that Meyer was in line to ask a question of Sen. Kerry when it was decided that no more questions would be allowed.

Meyer continued down the aisle toward Sen. Kerry angrily, according to police, saying he wanted the senator to answer his question because he had been waiting for two hours.

Though Sen. Kerry directed that Meyer be allowed to ask his question, police reported that Meyer did not ask any specific question and instead "badgered" the senator, and at one point said something about President Clinton being impeached over a sexual act.

At that point, police reported that ACCENT Director Max Tyroler turned off Meyer's microphone and asked police to escort him out of the auditorium, saying, "He had said enough," according to Officer Mallo's report.

Officers then proceeded to attempt to remove Meyer from the room, but when he resisted, they placed him on the ground and tried to handcuff him. The six officers who actually took part in holding Meyer down while he was being handcuffed reported that they were only able to get a handcuff on his right hand because he was squirming so much.

The supervising officer, Sgt. Eddie King, attempted to Taser Meyer on his chest, but he reported that his Taser would not deploy. He then instructed Mallo to Taser Meyer, and she Tasered him on his shoulder, according to one of the officer's report.

The officers were then able to fully handcuff Meyer and escort him from the building. Each of the six officers reported that Meyer yelled things like, "They're going to kill me," and, "They are giving me to the government," while he was being taken from the room.

Friends say student arrest not a stunt
6:37 p.m.

Despite humorous videos, pictures and acts attributed to Andrew Meyer online, friends of the University of Florida student insist his arrest Monday at an appearance by Sen. John Kerry was not any sort of publicity stunt.

"I think he just got scared," said Jon Levy, who identified himself as a student and a friend of Meyer's. "He is a funny person, but he is a funny person who really wants political change.

"He went there to ask some tough questions," Levy said.

Another friend and UF student, Michael Goldman, said he didn't believe Meyer intended for anything unusual to happen.

However, one of the many videos circulating of the incident was shot with Meyer's own camera.

Clarissa Jessup, who was standing near Meyer just before UF Police Tasered him and took him into custody, said Meyer asked her to film him asking Kerry a question just before he approached the microphone.

That has given rise to rumors that Meyer, who aspires to work in the national media, was hoping to get arrested or videotaped as part of some sort of elaborate stunt. But Jessup, who says she never met Meyer prior to the forum, says she thinks he simply wanted a video of himself talking to Kerry.

"I don't even know this kid," said Jessup, rebuffing any notion that she'd collaborated with Meyer to film an incident he knew would escalate.

Additionally, some content on Meyer's Web site, TheAndrewMeyer.com, suggests that Meyer is a bit of a prankster.

For example, one post written by Meyer recounts a time that he wore a funny hat and a blue tank top to a nice restaurant. He said his friends should have been, "accustomed and expecting of my uncanny ways." The post also says: "There is no wiggle room in the world these days for the dancing jester. There are specific social mores that must be upheld no matter how silly the place, the rules must be followed."

A video titled "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" features a man dressed in drag who becomes an attractive blonde after a few drinks.

Friends said Meyer didn't create all of the movies on the site and weren't sure which ones he had.

One of the posts on his Web site is a described as a "disorganized diatribe."

It criticizes media content, especially about the Iraq War.

A major theme in the post is lack of media coverage of important issues like the War in Iraq and the media's focus on entertainment issues.

One excerpt from that article reads: "The news is designed to keep viewers watching and sedated and not thinking bad thoughts about America, because that would be bad for the economy. Stories about a severely unbalanced budget are out, train wrecks like Paris and Anna are in. A train wreck may be senseless and pointless, but Americans sure do love to watch."

Levy said that he feels most news media are missing the issue that Meyer's incident should have brought up.

"The issue he was trying to get at was getting people to be more informed and willing to ask questions," Levy said, adding that he had talked to Meyer earlier Tuesday.

He mentioned what he called the irony that Meyer was asking a question when the scuffle with University Police began.

Meyer was a student writer at one time for the Sun-Sentinel in Fort Lauderdale. A description on the Sun-Sentinel Web site written by Meyer says: "Andrew tries to write mostly whimsical nonsense columns about nothing in particular, yet occasionally finds himself angry enough to rain down fire and brimstone on an unsuspecting politician or celebrity."

He also expresses his disdain for referring to himself in the third person, yet in most of his posts and on his Facebook.com profile he refers to himself as The Andrew Meyer.

-- Megan Rolland/The Gainesville Sun

Machen: 'We want to have civil discourse'
2:40 p.m.

GAINESVILLE - University of Florida President Bernie Machen told members of the media assembled at a campus news conference that UF officials will take a number of steps following Monday's incident in which student Andrew Meyer was Tasered during an on-campus speech by Sen. John Kerry.

"This is a university, and we want to have civil discourse," Machen said. "The fact that it didn't occur is as troubling to me as it is to our students."

Meyer was restrained by several University Police Department officers after he refused to leave the microphone during a question-and-answer session following Kerry's talk.

When he continued to struggle while being removed from the auditorium, he was subdued with a Taser.

Machen said that two UPD officers involved have been put on paid administrative leave pending an investigation.

He also said he has asked the State Attorney's Office to "act expeditiously" in deciding whether to bring any charges in the incident.

Machen said that he did not see the incident and will wait for a full report before making any further decisions.

"We will make our decisions based on the external review," he said.

-- Diane Chun/The Gainesville Sun

Tasered student videotaped by own camera
5:24 p.m.

One of the many videos circulating of a University of Florida student being Tasered by police was shot with the student's own camera.

Clarissa Jessup, who was standing near Adam Meyer just before UF Police took him into custody during U.S. Sen. John Kerry's speech at UF, said Meyer asked her to film him asking Kerry a question just before he approached the microphone.

That fact has given rise to rumors that Meyer, who aspires to work in national media, was performing an elaborate stunt. But Jessup, who says she never met Meyer prior to the forum, says she thinks he simply wanted a video of himself talking to Kerry.

"I don't even know this kid," said Jessup, rebuffing any notion that she'd collaborated with Meyer to film an incident he knew would escalate.

-- Jack Stripling/The Gainesville Sun

UF identifies two officers placed on leave
4:30 p.m.

The University of Florida identified two officers placed on administrative leave with pay after a student was shot with a Taser and arrested during a speech Monday by U.S. Sen. John Kerry.

Sgt. Eddie King and Officer Nicole Mallo have been placed on leave, said UF spokesman Steve Orlando Tuesday afternoon.

The two officers were identified as the supervising officer who had ordered that the Taser be used and the officer who used it.

Additional information about how long the two have been with the department was not immediately available.

Suspending the officers was one of several steps taken by the university after the arrest of UF student Andrew W. Meyer on Monday.

UF Police Chief Linda Stump has requested that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement conduct the formal investigation into Meyer's arrest. The officers' suspension is pending the outcome of the investigation.

The university also is planning to assemble a panel of faculty and students to review police protocols, management practices and the FDLE report and come up with recommendations for the university.

-- Lise Fisher/The Gainesville Sun

[mnuez]

Wow. I came here to see what you guys had to say. If ANYONE should be leading the charge against the police on this one it's you guys, and THIS is all you've got?

The guy said that he was willing to leave. Why the hell was he tasered and then arrested? And did you see the rest of the video? where he's told that he's being arrested for "inciting a riot"? I mean, WHAT THE FUCK?!

And above all of that, the kid's obviously not well. He was truly terrified (as you see later on in the videos) of being "disappeared". He was petrified. Why the fuck aren't the police supposed to take that into account?

No, I don't agree with the kid. He's a fuckin wackjob and I would totally understand his being forcibly removed, but jumped on, tasered and arrested???

Worthy of Revolt.

mnuez
http://www.mnuez.blogspot.com

[whit]

when forcibly removing him didn't work, and he became resistant (jumping around, flailing his arms), THAT is when he was jumped on.

and arrested

[M]

\Looks like he did incite a riot. Of cops.

[mnuez]

whit, get the fuck out of here. You don't get to show up on a public forum and shit all over it with twenty pages of cut n' paste to try and drown everyone else out. By your copsucking standards YOU ought to be tased.

I'd ask whether you're a cop or just the lover of one (or a taser salesman) but one such as yourself would never answer honestly so fuck it.

mnuez

[whit]

omg, DON'T TASE ME, bro

fwiw, i've been posting here for many years (sporadically), and i'm just speakin' truth to power, with actual FACTS (myths dispelled free o' charge)

i don't dispute that the tasing MAY be problematic

but willfully (or woefully) ignorant misperceptions about use of force continuums, taser (lol... substitute for guns thats my favorite), etc. need to be erased so a discussion can be based on actual...
wait for it...

facts

[Irish John]

I cannot watch this video anymore as it makes me so mad. How can you chicken shit Americans live with yourselves, not one person tried to help him and he could of easily been seriously injured. It was like watching something from the USSR. The Money Masters have you all fooled, The Fed is not a Federal institution, it is a private bank owned by secret private shareholders not the government. Rigged elections, no more free speech and you want the rest of the world to live your way, fat chance.

[Eric the .5b]

tasers are not gun substitutes....i can tell, based on model use of force policies, etc. that other than that, the force was reasonable and appropriate and lawful, as far as i can tell.

actually, they were pretty restrained.

Provide some cites - link to or quote these "model use of force policies" from when tasers were first offered, not modern "fire if he disrespects your authoritah" policies, or I call bullshit.

while this was found to be true, it was not KNOWN to the cops when they tased him. whether or not he was armed was NOT known to them (although presumably whatever he had wasn't metal, since i assume they metal screened people at a kerry event).

I call bullshit on this straight out. They had him on the ground when they tased him, and they said they were tasing him for not cooperating. If they thought he posed a threat and might have been armed, they shouldn't have been standing behind him minutes prior, waiting for the word to remove him for being disruptive.

i don't dispute that the tasing MAY be problematic

You think it may be "pretty restrained", but "problematic"?

fwiw, i've been posting here for many years (sporadically), and i'm just speakin' truth to power, with actual FACTS (myths dispelled free o' charge)

I've been posting here since 2002, and your name sure doesn't ring a bell. And if you think we have "power", well...

[whit]

first of all, feel free to look up any use of force policy in regards to taser's. for example, the UCLA library tasering incident (report available), many claimed part of the problem was that the UCLA policy was much more "liberal" than the LAPD and neighboring agencies.

many use of force continuums allow tasering for active resistance. clearly, whatever this guy was, he was actively resistant. note that actively resistant is a step above passive resistance (think gandhi) and a step below assaultive.

the taser is never justified when a cops authoritah is disrespected. it IS justifiable in SOME use of force policies to gain "compliance" such as when a person has been actively resistant and (as in the instant case) refuses to be handcuffed. again, i am not saying the tasering was justified. i am saying it MAY be. i have not read U of F's use of force policy. so, i can't say one way or the other. i do know that if somebody has an arm locked underneath them, and the other is cuffed, and he had been actively resistant, that this is justifiable, especially when verbal admonishments are given (as was the case here). again, depends on the UOF policy.

as for your second paragraph. ALL actively resistant suspects are threats. less of a threat than an armed man pointing a gun at you, more of a threat than a passively resistant subject. again, you need to understand force de-escalation and escalation goes along with these concepts. no threat has been NEUTRALIZED until (at a minimum) the person has been handcuffed. he was NOT. the "cooperation" they were looking for was for him to place his other hand to be handcuffed.

as for restrained, APART from the tasering, they were "pretty restrained". in fact, their lack of physical skills and excess restraint, that ALLOWED him to escalate, ultimately might not have happened if they had been less restrained initially. when he refused to leave and started jumping around and waving his arms, numerous ineffectual attempts were made to restrain him, he became more emboldened, more agitated, etc.

im not particularly impressed by these cops physical prowess.

part of the reason why tasers are used is that when a cop is wrestling and trying to handcuff somebody is the single most dangerous time. over 70% of officer assaults happen DURING the handcuffing or attempted handcuffing.

numerous suspects are injured (sprained/broken wrists, etc.) when trying to handcuff somebody who just does not want to be handcuffed.

personally, i think many tasering policies are TOO liberal (iow, there should be a higher threshold to use them). but the issue in this case, given the fact pattern as i understand it is ... what is the U of F use of force policy.

the threat assessment (secret service, cops etc. are taught this) is elastic and dynamic. there are reports that the cops already had had some sort of incident with this guy before he ran to the mic (mentioned in some narratives by students), and it was his increasingly resistant behavior that escalated (as it should) their perception of threat. it's a continuum, not a binary thang.

when somebody refuses lawful orders, starts flailing around, swinging his arms and yelling and screaming, the threat assessment is escalated vs. somebody who is compliant and/or passively resistant.

he escalated the situation.

[Eric the .5b]

i am not saying the tasering was justified. i am saying it MAY be. i have not read U of F's use of force policy.

So, ultimately, no matter what else you just said, and no matter what's been seen or what's known, you're saying the question of whether this act was justified relies solely on whether that university has a policy recommending tasing in cases like this

[JKSB]

so wait, is he a member or not? did he answer it