The Sharif Don't Like It: The Decline and Fall of Middle Eastern Civilization

Iranian state television takes on the scourge of Western heavy metal music, which is driving the country's youth towards Satanism and, apparently, inspiring them to get short, spiky, Eurodisco haircuts. Using jumpy, MTV-style editing, the program host blames "Jewish and American capitalists" for the spread of 2Pac and Kiss. But little do the rebellious kiddies know, the announcer grimly intones, that they are "unknowingly making themselves look like homosexuals."

Pay particular attention to the Paul Stanley (Jewish, naturally) guitar-smashing montage at the end, and the repeated clips of Gene Simmons (born Chaim Witz in Haifa, Israel, don't you know) wagging his tongue:

Comments

[Taktix?]

Hopefully the kids in Iran will do the same thing with music that we did in the 70's: tell their parents and the government to Fuck Off.

[Lurker Kurt]

Awesome 1970s KISS footage.

[Johnny D.]

I figured from the headline this would be a post about the goings-on in Pakistan.

[damaged justice]

Hopefully the kids in Iran will do the same thing with music that we did in the 70's: tell their parents and the government to Fuck Off.

And when they have kids of their own, they can conveniently forget whatever lessons they themselves learned, as they decide that "everything is different now" and "it's for the children."

[Larry Lurex]

Ironically Gene Simmons has had at least 72 virgins and he didn't even have to martyr himself.

[Bee]

When I read about this yesterday, I wondered what the deal was with the "Western hair" young men were sporting. Now I understand. "Product" is the work of Satan. Check.

Doesn't heavy metal involve really big hair, anyway?

Is heavy metal enjoying a resurgence in Iran? I wonder how the authorities would feel about gangsta rap.

[mk]

Larry Lurex wins the thread.

[WalterBoswell]

"And these children that you spit on as they try to change their worlds are immune to your consultations, they're quite aware of what they're going through."

You go you crazy Capitalistically Jewish Yankee influenced crazy Iranian rock kidz.

Note the 'z' in kidz, that's rebellion that is.

[DannyK]

When Tehran has its own Kiss tribute band, we've won the GWOT.

[Cesar]

I figured from the headline this would be a post about the goings-on in Pakistan.

Pakistan is not Middle Eastern anymore than India is. Its South Asian.

Muslim != Middle East.

[Shelby]

DannyK,

But when they have more dwarf Kiss tribute bands than we do, we'll have lost ... umm ... something else entirely.

[Pro Libertate]

You gotta lose your mind in Tehran, Rock City

Twelve o'clock, I'm in Iraq.
There's a Hummer ahead, lights starin' at my eyes.
Oh Allah, no time to turn,
I got to laugh 'cause I know I'm gonna die.
Why?

Get up!
Everybody's gonna move their feet.
Get down!
Everybody's gonna leave their seat.

[Jeff P]

Off topic: On Saturday nights MTV shows Metal Mania, which features 80s hairshit, while VH1 Classic shows Headbangers Ball, featuring bloodfaced growlers strobelit while thrashing out speed and death metal.
It gets me thinking: I so wish I could take the audience from a Warrant concert, convinced that they are metal-heads, and transport them to Dimmu Borgir show, just to see their heads explode.

[BakedPenguin]

In 1990, I had hair down to my tits, wearing a Corrosion of Conformity t-shirt, after coming out of some Quickie Mart with a six-pack of beer. Two guys pulled up in a jeep blaring "Wait" by White Lion - the passenger banging his head at this rockin' song. They stop, the guy gets out, sees me, and sheepishly nods, (justifiably) embarrassed, and shuffled inside the store.

[BakedPenguin]

"and was wearing a..."

[Underzog]

Arabs surf Israeli porn site

"There's no need to fear; Underzog is here!" (and don't forget the "Underdog" movie that is coming out)

[Brandybuck]

Hopefully the kids in Iran will do the same thing with music that we did in the 70's: tell their parents and the government to Fuck Off.

And then they eventually procreate, drop out of school, and demand that the government pay for their slacker existance.

[Ken Shultz]

Hair styles really do freak out the establishment. It's a sign of spreading liberalism; they're right about that. Show me a country where the hair styles are all the same, and I'll show you an oppressed society.

I heard that back during the Cultural Revolution in China, when you went into a barber shop, they had two pictures on the wall, and you'd point to the one with the hairstyle you wanted.

You could get Moe or Pete Rose.

[Jim Bob]

You've gotta be shitting me. That looked like a bunch of emo kids.

Jeff P:

Meshuggah would also do the job nicely.

[edna]

rockin' al aqsa, rockin' al aqsa.

mossad porn, i dunno, that's a bit much for me.

[WalterBoswell]

Ken Shultz : Show me a country where the hair styles are all the same, and I'll show you an oppressed society.

Lhasa?

[M]

Muslim != Middle East.

Cesar, all my symbolic logicians are on vacation, and google wasn't telling. Would you please explicate that != trope, used here with some frequency? Any related ones too, please - I wanna be cool too.

[Brandybuck]

Those hairstyles (or tattos, body piercings, etc) aren't a result of a liberal disestablishmentarian society. Adopting the conformant styles of a group as social signaling mechanisms isn't individualism, it's collectivism.

A free society is a set of varied individuals, not groups of identical clones. You never bothered listening to your mother, so I'll repeat what she said: "dressing and behaving exactly like all your friends is not 'doing your own thing'".

[True individualist]

What Brandybuck said.

[CharlesWT]

!= (Not Equal To) (Transact-SQL)

[tarran]

M:

In C, C++, C#, Java and a bunch of other programming languages, != is the comparison operator meaning 'Not Equal' to.

It is used in a conditional statement such as

if (a != b) {
kill_the_beast();
} else {
free_the_beast();
}

In the above statement, the function kill_the_beast would only be executed is the statement a != b were true, meaning if a was not equal to b.

If someone says 'A != B' it's a shorthand way of saying A and B are not the same thing.

[Brian Sorgatz]

"They're unknowingly making themselves look like homosexuals."

Who knew that the Iranian TV news media are controlled by the guys in my junior high school gym class?

The truth is, they're knowingly making themselves look like people who hate theocratic conformity.

[Goldthwait]

"Hopefully the kids in Iran will do the same thing with music that we did in the 70's: tell their parents and the government to Fuck Off."

Unfortunately in Iran, they can hang you from a crane if you follow that particular course of action. Of course, no less is to be expected from a country whose laws dictate a woman who is raped be charged with rape herself, to name just one example of the twisted legal logic employed in that wonderful Islamic Republic.

[Goldthwait]

"Those hairstyles (or tattos, body piercings, etc) aren't a result of a liberal disestablishmentarian society. Adopting the conformant styles of a group as social signaling mechanisms isn't individualism, it's collectivism"

When one considers that it is probably illegal to dress in such a fashion and that 99.9% of the population dresses differently, I think you are wrong in this case.
Have you been reading academic sociology journals lately?

[Metalphobe]

Well, wait - there's something to that "homosexuals" thing.

In retrospect watching old footage it's clear as day that Rob Halford was as queer as a 2 dollar bill, but try telling a teenage Priest fan that back in the day.

Metal = Gay.

[Warty]

Metal = Gay.

DIE BY HATREDCOPTER

[WarlockBloodfire]

Strange, how Heavy Metal is always associated with Satanism in the media when there are tons of artists from other genres who are much more genuinely Satanic. Iran needs to be introduced to The Quintessentials, RazorDog, HellOfAllHells, and perhaps more stuff from Black House Tribute Records, for starters.

[Warty]

Warlock: are those bands even more Satanic than Entombed? Pretty much every Entombed song is about Satan, except for that one that makes fun of bodybuilders.

[jtuf]

Brandybuck,

Even if it isn't individualistic, it's still libertarian. Joining a group by choice instead of by government order is the essence of the right to assembly. Come to think of it, even when it's a stretch to call an outfit a form of speech, it still signals group affiliation. Maybe that's enough to give any clothing 1st ammendment protection under the assembly clause.

[WarlockBloodfire]

Warty,

Those bands are definitely more Satanic in the genuine definition of the term. Read Anton LaVey's definition of Satanic music in Michael Moynihan's book 'Lords of Chaos' and you'll see what I mean.

Also, Black House Tribute Records is a label for Satanists run by Satanists. See the Links section of http://www.ChurchOfSatan.com and you'll recognize a few bands.

[Taktix?]

If find the use of programming language a bit ostentatious, mainly because I didn't know any of it before now...

Taktix? ! =programmer

[M]

CharlesWT, tarran -

Thank you. I'm now ~ .

(= Not [just] a lttle bitwise.)

[True individualist]

What jtuf said.

[Pro Libertate]

!=? !=? Nay, ?.

[Cesar]

!= means not equal to.

[Bill Quick]

Rob Halford was as queer as a 2 dollar bill

What's queer about a two dollar bill? (Aside from it being US paper money, of course, of course).

[docweasel]

Uh, Larry Lurex, I seriously doubt any of Kiss' groupies were virgins :p

None older than 12, anyway.

[docweasel]

BTW, so fucking what if Halford is gay. Freddie Mercury was gay also, and I was a huge Queen fan as a kid, and some of my moron buddies would say "But he's gay", and I would vainly try to tell them, "so fucking what, listen to the music, they kick ass, its proto-metal".

Apparently the morons only grew up, they didn't smarten up. Psst, Elton is gay too! And Liberace!

[Rick Barton]

The Sharif Don't Like It

I don't know if it's true for Iran as it is for the Arab countries (probably is)-But since "Sharif" is an Arabic word anyway, I'll just point out that the chief exporter of pornography into the Arab world is Sweden. And while the Islamic clerics complain bitterly, of course there were no 9/11 type attacks on Stockholm. It took our government's interventionist aggression, especially the taxpayer funding of the Israeli government's occupation of Palestinian land to motivate 9/11.

[AST]

Gee, I wasted my life being a geek before it was cool and a nerd, which never has been cool, when I could have been out having fun going to heavy metal concerts with their loud, harsh music, crazy costumes and mosh pits where I could have been turned into a homosexual or gotten it on with some hot American foxes with their big enormous American breasts.

Judging by this video, I think these Iranian kids have heavy metal, a musical reference, mixed up with the rapper lifestyle, where you only WEAR or CARRY heavy metal. I wonder how you say bling in Persian.

[Becky]

Does Adam Pearlman know what they think of his beloved Heavy Metal?

[Steve39]

This is all well and good but I'd prefer that they were making bombs in their basements to attack the regime. Because if the Iranian people don't get rid of the mullahs we are going to be forced to stop them and nobody wants that to happen but we cannot allow these fanatics controlling nuclear weapons or to contiunue waging covert war against America.

[Rick Barton]

Those poor Iranian kids. That music sucks! Let's send em some links for tunes that we here in the West can be proud of. Perhaps they will offset some of the embarrassment that our government brings upon us. Let's send em some fine old school puck tunes such as Siouxsie and the Banshees' "Hong Kong Garden"!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF0OjrFIVWY&mode=related&search=

And some fine New Wave songs like The B-52's - "Private Idaho"!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFyBH-z6c1w

And didya know that John Lennon pronounced the B52s debut album his favorite album of all time?!!

Here, from that album, is "Rock lobster"!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UqKRGW6_rw&mode=related&search=

[AliV]

Rick Barton, things are not so rosy in Sweden or Denmark right now either.

[Luke P.]

..But they do look pretty gay, you have to admit.

[Luke P.]

Has anyone commented on the fact that this video was translated by the always trustworthy MEMRI.TV ?

http://www.infocusnews.net/content/view/15069/135/

[Robert]

Thank God they haven't seen OK GO on treadmills.

[gk]

Yeah that dang MEMRI, playing the dirty trick of actually translating what these islamic countries say when they don't think anyone in the west is listening in. Dirty Rats!

[SxCx]

"...encouraging the listeners to violence, fear, lack of discipline, death, pain, recklessness, and paranoia."

Sounds familiar...

[docweasel]

Rick Barton: And didya know that John Lennon pronounced the B52s debut album his favorite album of all time?!!

Sometimes Lennon said some dumb-ass shit.

[Rick Barton]

Steve39:

... but we cannot allow these fanatics controlling nuclear weapons

What nonsense! That says that the costs of militarily stopping them now from having nuclear weapons (it's not clear at all that they're actually trying to develop them) are less than managing the situation if they even ever acquire a few of them, and that's what were looking at for the foreseeable future, a few. The evidence doesn't support that this preemptive aggression is wise for America in the case of Iran. And the prospect of them actually having workable nukes is 5-7 years way anyway, in the fastest case, and it's something we can watch and react to. Also, note that the fanatics in Pakistan have nukes and our government gives them our money!

From, The American Conservative see:

"Iran: "Past the Paranoia "
"At once theocratic, secular, hostile, and modern, Iran is not America's natural enemy."

http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_06_04/cover.html

and...

"Size Matters"
"The push for military strikes against Iran rests on inflated assessments of a minor threat."

http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_10_23/cover.html

Steve39:

...or to contiunue waging covert war against America.

What covert war? You sound like you've been watching too much FOX news foreign policy disinformation programming.

[fulldroolcup]

For Rick Barton:

Yeah, yeah....Sweden hasn't been attacked because it "took our government's interventionist aggression, especially the taxpayer funding of the Israeli government's occupation of Palestinian land to motivate 9/11."

Yeah yeah, AS IF the Iranians, Al Qaeda or anyone else cares that American "taxpayers" funded the occupation of Palestine land. I detect a faint echo of "little Eichmanns" in that witless asssertion...

Yeah, yeah, AS IF it wasn't the Brits and the UNITED NATIONS that set up the State of Israel. You know, Balfour Declaration, Holocaust and all that? Oh...you DON'T know...why am I not surprised?

Yeah, yeah, AS IF the UN's setting up of the State of Israel was "illegal" and the US should never have supported a democracy amidst the Arab kakistocracies who have made war against it since its founding..

Yeah, yeah, AS IF Israel hasn't already given up the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and the territories seized from Lebanon.

Yeah, yeah....it's Israel's fault that Syria attacked it and lost the Golan Heights as a result. Why, it's Israel's responsibility to give back that land to the aggresssor LOSERS of the war! BZZZZTTTTT!!!!!

Other than that....you've got great grasp of history there, pal!

Snort!

p.s. has anyone ever told you you're a vicious little crypto-anti-semite?

[Lamar]

If our soldiers would have invaded Tehran, we would have been greeted as saviors...if our soldiers had angular haircuts. We need to step up our recruiting in Williamsburg (Brooklyn).

Somebody above mentioned dwarves, and it makes me wonder, how would The Dwarves go over in Tehran? Surely that stuffs the spawn of Satan.

[Rick Barton]

Rick Barton, things are not so rosy in Sweden or Denmark right now either.

Denmark has unrest problems due to local situations, but not the attacks like those that have occurred in countries (UK and Spain) that were so foolish as to participate in our government's shameful attack on Iraq. But the fact remains that the chief exporter of pornography into the Arab world is Sweden and there have been no attacks there despite the bitter complaints of the Islamic clerics. All of this adds evidence to the contention that they don't hate us for who we are, they hate us for the aggression of our government. Unlike Gore's, this is an inconvenient truth that's actually the truth!

[Rick Barton]

docweasel:

Sometimes Lennon said some dumb-ass shit.

Sure, but the man knew music. Right?

[JEM]

If a band, like the Clash, were to happen to put out something like 'Rock the Casbah' today, and some mullah somewhere took exception to it, how long (measured in seconds) would it be before one of Brown's minions were on TV kissing robed posterior? Is it true that the foreign ministers of all EU countries are required to have in their possession at all times the text of a general-purpose apologia?

Oh, and Mr Barton - I honestly don't care that 'they' hate us, or what they hate us for. That simply doesn't matter. The US needs to do what's in the national interest of the US, and the more consistent and forceful we are in enunciating and promoting those interests the more broadly they will be accepted, if grudgingly. I'm willing to accept that it's in this country's interest to support and preserve the only functioning (if imperfect) democracy anywhere in the Mideast, a country generally less guilty of cultural imperialism and needless brutality than any of its neighbors.

[JEM]

less guilty of cultural imperialism and needless brutality than any of its neighbors.

Excepting perhaps hapless Lebanon and hedging Jordan, neither of which are guilt-free when it comes to handling their own Palestinian issues.

[Rick Barton]

fulldroolcup:

AS IF the Iranians, Al Qaeda or anyone else cares that American "taxpayers" funded the occupation of Palestine land. I detect a faint echo of "little Eichmanns" in that witless asssertion...

Note that the findings of the 9/11 commission reveal:

"Khalid Shaike Mohammed, the man who conceived and directed the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, was motivated by his strong disagreement with American support for the Israeli occupation, said the final report of the Sept. 11 commission."

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/news/nation/9222612.htm

And, in his 9/11 Fatwa Bin Laden told us the three reasons for the 9/11 attack:

1. Us troops deployed to close to Mecca

2. The harm done to Iraqi civilians by the blockade if Iraq.

3. American government support for the Israeli government's occupation of Palestinian land.

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm

p.s. has anyone ever told you you're a vicious little crypto-anti-semite?

Sure, when you don't have any good arguments, just make unfounded accusations of racism. You appear to be out of your depth on this blog, both intellectually and ethically.

[M. Simon]

There never were any Palestinians. Or Palestinian lands

Jordan and Egypt were the owners of the land by force of arms; they took it against the wishes of the UN in '48 when they attempted to drive the Jews into the sea - which was not a covert but an open policy - you can look it up. Israel took it from them because of acts of war by Egypt and Jordan in '67. Israel begged Jordan to stay out of it in '67 - Nasser was clever and got the Jordanians to come in.

Israel tried to give the land back to Jordan and Egypt in exchange for peace treaties.

When Egypt did make peace they got the Sinai back. However, they had no interest in Gaza and the Egyptians living there.

Similarly Jordan does not want the Jordanians on the West Bank back.

[M. Simon]

Arafat formed the Palestine Liberation Organization well before '67. So what exactly was he trying to liberate? Gaza from Egypt? Nope. The West Bank from Jordan? Nope. I'll let you figure the rest out.

In fact the Palis get kicked out of every where they set up shop. Is this all the Israelis fault? If so then why did Lebanon have a dust up with them recently? Why did Kuwait kick them out in '91?

The so called Palestinians are treated worse by their brothers than they are by the Israelis. As acknowledged by the Palis themselves. Of course this may have something to do with the Palis attitude towards violence to attain their goals.

"Palestine" is not a Nation. It is a bunch of gangsters that sucks the wealth from the people who live under their control. Honor killings - caused by the Israelis? Pali homosexuals are safer in Israel that they are under their own government. They are subject to public hangings in the Pali territories. The gangs terrorize their own subjects. Step out of line the man comes and you get a bullet to the head. Due process.

The Pali State as it exists is a despotism. Just what the world needs. Another despotic state. How Libertarian.

However, as you here all know the cure for all that is a Pali State. I love Libertarians. Especially those who support despotism. How egalitarian. How liberal. Charming to the end.

[M. Simon]

The world cannot survive half despotic and half free. Quite a few understood this in '76. Fortunately Libs are not inheritors of that tradition.

I can see not supporting Israel. Does that mean that you have to support its enemies?

Man I am so glad I left the Party in '01. I would be ashamed to be in the company of the left over Libs.

Did I forget to mention the current crack down on music and dancing in Hamastan. Free speech for me but not for thee? OK!!!!!!!! Or how about government imposed dress and hair styles?

Did you know that conditions in Hammastan are so bad that many of its resident pine for the days of the occupation when Israel imposed a modicum of law and order on Gaza?

Such a lovely people. Let us give them a State.

Did I mention that in WW2 the Palis allied with the Germans. Why? The Germans were killing Jews and the Palis wanted to help. The Grand Mufti helped raise two divisions of Jew killers. Guess what. Arafat called the Mufti "Uncle".

And Abbas? Well he wrote a book saying the Jewish genocide in WW2 was fiction. However, had it actually happened he was in favor of it.

Way cool, eh?

[M. Simon]

It is wonderful to see the true Libertarians stand up for despotism.

Heaven knows consent of the governed has outlived its usefulness.

[bour3]

Metalphobe,
$2.00 bills are perfectly straight. $3.00 bills on the other hand, not so much.

[Michael Lonie]

Nasty USA, helping Israel fight off the Arab attempts to finish the job Hitler started. The only reason Gaza, the West Bank, and Southern Lebanon were occupied by the Israelis was because the Arabs attacked them from those territories. Israel offered to give back all the land captured in 1967 except Jerusalem a couple of months after the war. The Arab respose was the three no's of Khartoum: No negotiations, no recognition, no peace. Israel occupation was due to Arab intransigence. Bad Israelis, resisting genocide. Bad America, helping them do so.

Nasty USA, saving the Balkan Muslims from having the Serbs do to them what the Arabs want to do to the Israelis.

Nasty USA, protecting the region from Communist Soviet Imperialism. Imagine the Soviet army turning Iran or Turkey into satellite states like Poland fifty or sixty years ago. Bad America.

Nasty USA, helping the Afghans against Soviet Communist Imperialism.

Boy, American transgressions against Muslims have been just unforgivable.

And you can take "The American Conservative", roll it up very tightly, and shove as hard as you can it where the sun don't shine. That's all it's worth.

[Rick Barton]

JEM:

The US needs to do what's in the national interest of the US, and the more consistent and forceful we are in enunciating and promoting those interests the more broadly they will be accepted, if grudgingly.

But the evidence teaches us that our government's being interventionist and "forceful" often works at cross-purposes to the American people's interest, as it has in the Mideast.

I'm willing to accept that it's in this country's interest to support and preserve the only functioning (if imperfect) democracy anywhere in the Mideast,

Lebonan, and even Iran have democracies that "function". But that shouldn't be the criteria for American government intervention. The only valid pretext for intervention is national security. Also, supporting the Israeli government's brutal, and now with the wall, an even thieving more occupation, is not "supporting Israel". Note that poll after poll finds that a majority of Israeli citizens favors an end to the occupation.

[Rick Barton]

M. Simon:

There never were any Palestinians.

That's ridiculous! There's even a separate Palestinian dialect of Arabic:

http://www.flashcardexchange.com/flashcards/view/450724

Or Palestinian lands

What?? Ever hear of Mandatory Palestine??

[Rick Barton]

JEM:

Excepting perhaps hapless Lebanon and hedging Jordan, neither of which are guilt-free when it comes to handling their own Palestinian issues.

And that's true about them, especially Jordan, not being guilt-free when it comes to handling Palestinian refugees. But I was gonna mention Dubai which btw, has aspects of a free market that both Lebanon and Israel would do well to emulate.

[Rick Barton]

M. Simon:

The Pali State as it exists is a despotism. Just what the world needs. Another despotic state. How Libertarian.

Ending our tax support of the Israeli government's occupation of Palestine is not the same as supporting the Palestinian state. And doing the former most certainly is libertarian.

[Rick Barton]

Michael Lonie:

Nasty USA, helping Israel fight off the Arab attempts to finish the job Hitler started. The only reason Gaza, the West Bank, and Southern Lebanon were occupied by the Israelis was because the Arabs attacked them from those territories. Israel offered to give back all the land captured in 1967 except Jerusalem a couple of months after the war.

Your first ugly sentence indicates that you don't deserve for someone to take the time to give you a history lesson that you obviously are in need of, so I'm sure as Hell not going to take the time. But because I have a general desire to stamp out the kind of ignorance that you've displayed, I will recommend the book: "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict" by Norman Finkelstein. I think that it's the best volume on the conflict extant:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859843395/reasonmagazinea-20/

[Hambone Porkov]

There was an excellent article here:
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=082102B
regarding the way Elvis and subsequently the whole rock concert culture/business removed the wind from the sails of demagoguery by appropriating the style an mocking it by the nature of the substance.

[Whitney Andrew]

Rick Barton | August 24, 2007, 12:30am | #

Denmark has unrest problems due to local situations, but not the attacks like those that have occurred in countries (UK and Spain) that were so foolish as to participate in our government's shameful attack on Iraq.

Apparently, you weren't aware that Denmark had troops in Iraq. Now what was that about attacks, UK, Spain and participation again?

[Eric Dondero]

And what was that the Ron Paulists, Leftwing Libertarians and Paleos have been saying?

Oh yeah, "Muslim leaders hate us for our foreign policy, not our culture."

[Esbiem]

I shot the Sharif, but I did not shoot the deputy (minister)

[Tym]

Freddie Mercury was gay also, and I was a huge Queen fan as a kid

And by the way, Freddie Mercury was Iranian.

[Tym]

Freddie Mercury was gay also, and I was a huge Queen fan as a kid

And by the way, Freddie Mercury was Iranian.

[pst314]

"Sure, but the man knew music. Right?"

Really? He was infallible? Don't forget the awful Yoko Ono.

[pst314]

Apparently you weren't aware that Denmark's problems predate the war in Iraq.

But then, the problem with Islam predates the the 20th century--by about 1400 years in fact--having its roots in Islam's insistence that infidels must be Kept In Their Place.

[dhex]

DONNNNNDEEERRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YEAH!

eric what's your favorite metal act?

ps nyc'ers today is the day is playing in greenpoint on september 14th at club europa. it's going to be amazing.

[Fluffy]

Hey Simon, if there's no such thing as Palestine or Palestinians, then Israel is even more in the wrong.

If there's no such thing as Palestine or Palestinians, then Israel is arbitrarily denying citizenship rights to the inhabitants of an area it has administered for 40 years.

Jewish settlers living in the occupied territories retain the right to vote. That means that Israel is arbitrarily withholding the right to vote from the neighbors of those settlers - and since you deny that those neighbors have a nationality, there is no basis for such denial.

It's really very simple. Israel has only three choices consistent with basic justice: they can give the inhabitants of the occupied territories their own state, they can return the occupied territories to Egypt and Jordan, or they can fully annex the territories and declare the inhabitants of those territories citizens. The fact that Israel finds the last option demographically undesirable means nothing to me, so there's no need to cue the violin music.

[Whitney Andrew]

pst314 | August 24, 2007, 10:16am | #

Apparently you weren't aware that Denmark's problems predate the war in Iraq.

But then, the problem with Islam predates the the 20th century--by about 1400 years in fact--having its roots in Islam's insistence that infidels must be Kept In Their Place.

I was aware. Apparently, you don't read too well.

The poster I was responding to thought that involvement in Iraq was the reason UK and Spain were attacked and claimed Denmark's lack of involvement meant they were spared. My point: Denmark had troops in Iraq.

[daniel k]

But little do the rebellious kiddies know, the announcer grimly intones, that they are "unknowingly making themselves look like homosexuals." Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[M. Simon]

Fluffy,

There have been Jews in Israel for over 3,000 years. Look up the history of Hebron, at least until the Mufti killed a lot of Jews and drove the rest out.

Despite the Roman expulsion there has been a Jewish Nation for just as long.

In fact it is rather unique in being a nation without a territory for around 1800 years.

The Palestinians are actually mostly "Syrians" who came to the territory called Palestine by the Turks. Why did they come? Jewish economic development. You can look it up.

But I'm with you. If the Palis want self government (that is not evident) then all they have to do is end their war with Israel. You know like firing rockets every day from Gaza which is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Hamas. You know if they can't control their own territory they are not a nation.

It is the Palestinians who are ruining it for the Palestinians.

And how about the outstanding Palestinian human rights record and their support for Liberty as we understand it? Hanging homos in the town square? Honor killings? Their President is a Holocaust denier. Wonderful Libertarian values. Nice to see your staunch support.

And why is Palestine supposed to be Judden Rein? Another Libertarian value?

The Palis have elected Hamas whose goal (announced in Arabic so as to avoid frightening the UN etc.) is the destruction of not just Israel but the Jews. It is in their Charter, which in turn has anti-Jewish stuff from the Koran.

Wen Jews had no territory they thought their persecution would end when they had a territory. Evidently it has nothing to do with whether they have a nation or not. Something else is at play.

The Palestinians were on the side of the Austrian Corporal in WW2. Killing Jews was their motive. Evidently culture does not change fast in the Arab world.

[Dude]

Are they listening to Dir en grey yet?

[Rick Barton]

Whitney Andrew:

The poster I was responding to thought that involvement in Iraq was the reason UK and Spain were attacked and claimed Denmark's lack of involvement meant they were spared. My point: Denmark had troops in Iraq.

The UK and Spain were clearly targets of terror attack cuz of their involvement in Iraq cuz that's the reason that the perpetrators of those attacks gave.

Also, lets keep troop levels in perspective. The Danish government had all of 460 troops in Iraq.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat_coalition.htm

[joe]

It takes a special kind of stupid to brag about how determined you are not to know things, fulldroolcup.

[Tennwriter]

Lennon--Imagine, if I remember right is his. Now, there's a song that everyone from Libertarian to Social Conservative to Paleocon can agree on--its stupid.

Lurex, Brandybuck, M. Simon--thanks for enbrightenment of the world.

[Matt]

"I wanna be a non-conformist, like everybody else"

What these kids are doing is meaningless.
What the Iranian establishment is doing with their interpretation of it, is what the problem is.
They're a dictatorial society. Cutting your hair weird is not some sort of revolution that's going to change the establishment there. Picking up arms and forcing the government out is.

[M]

Lennon--Imagine, if I remember right is his. Now, there's a song that everyone from Libertarian to Social Conservative to Paleocon can agree on--its stupid.

Tennwriter - Introducing Exhibit A for the Prosecution.

[Whitney Andrew]

The UK and Spain were clearly targets of terror attack cuz of their involvement in Iraq cuz that's the reason that the perpetrators of those attacks gave.

Funny how pulling all of it's troops out of Iraq, doesn't spare Spain from continued plots of terrorism by Islamists.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/12/news/spain.php

It kind of puts the lie to the terrorists' and leftists' claims that our presence in Iraq leads to terrorism. The same way the following events put the lie to the same claim about the Iraq invasion (2003).

9/11/01 - terrorist attacks against NYC & DC
6/25/96 - Khobar Towers attack
10/12/00 - USS Stark struck by terrorists
8/7/98 - US Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya bombed by terrorists

etc., etc.

And why were Australian tourists targeted in Oct. of 2002 in Bali? Certainly not because of Iraq.

[Rick Barton]

Whitney Andrew,

It's not just leftists who say that that our government's presence in Iraq leads to terrorism. (I'm a libertarian Republican, btw). Folks in our military have observed that our presence in Iraq is a huge recruiting tool for AQ.

The link that you provided doesn't negate the evidence that foreign troop presence in Iraq leads to terrorism against the sponsoring government's country. And did you bother to read the whole article? Note that it says:

"Two of the men arrested Tuesday are brothers of a former Spanish detainee at Guant?namo."

And surely you aren't trying to deny that the 9/11 terrorist attacks against NYC & DC were motivated by our government's mideast intervention. Please read my comment at August 24, 2007, 1:28am

[docweasel]

Rick Barton | August 24, 2007, 12:36am | #
docweasel:
Sometimes Lennon said some dumb-ass shit.
RickBarton:
Sure, but the man knew music. Right?

Everything public pronouncement Lennon made between telling the press his fav American band was Nilsson and telling the paramedics "I'm John Lennon" was shite.

Also, Lennon never wrote an original nor particularly good song after "Day in the Life". And I include that dirty hippie socialist dirge "Imagine".

Imagine there's no Yoko
It's easy if you try
If only Chapman's pistol
Had been pointed 2 feet to one side

[Rick Barton]

docweasel,

"Imagine" seems more confused than it does socialist. It also says...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for...

...correctly linking government and war.

And don't forget the lyrics to "Revolution":

But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow.

Also, hippies aren't dirty, socialists are.

[Rick Barton]

...Just to be clear, I consider...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for...

...to be laudable lyrics, not evidence of the confusion that is in the tune.

[Underzog]

Anti-semitic, Nazi type Barton singing John Lennon's Communist lyrics. Karl Marx and Stalin hated the Jews along with Hitler so it's most fitting.

"There's no need to fear; Underzog is here!"

[Rick Barton]

Underzog,

You must really be dumb as a stump cuz you never learn. Criticism of the Israeli government is not anti-Semitism.

How many times are you going to embarrass yourself on these threads? Just in case anyone new to these threads is taking your nonsense seriously, they may google up my comments and see that I, like most libertarians, am explicitly anti-racist.

[docweasel]

Barton:
What it shows is that Lennon was a cowardly dilettante, by his own admission, who didn't understand the issues and was afraid to take a stand either way.

And your exclusionary formulation that "countries=war" sure doesn't explain how entities like the IRA and other insurgent armies killed millions with no government backing and no government or country to fight for.

The fact is, its a GOOD thing that there are things for which to live and die, and its a noble thing to do so. There are evil, bad men in the world who would enslave others and seize our land, liberty and rights. There will probably always be such men. It has nothing to do with religion or countries. Much of the fighting in the Mid-East and elsewhere is tribal and even between families. Countries, if anything, help stabilize such hostilities and tamp them down.

I still think Lennon was an idiot, and it galls me to hear people speak of him as the "smart Beatle". I think Lennon was thick and ordinary in everything but having the sense to collaborate with McCartney long enough to establish his legend. The hollowness of his "talent" was pretty much exposed when he no longer had that great musical mind with which to work.

[Rick Barton]

What shows that Lennon was a cowardly dilettante? And he was anything but cowardly when he was opposing the Viet Nam war even in the face of government retribution while residing in this country

The fact is, its a GOOD thing that there are things for which to live and die...

The line is: "Nothing to kill or die for"

It has nothing to do with religion or countries

War has everything to do with governments.

Countries, if anything, help stabilize such hostilities and tamp them down.

Governments are always instrumental to the big carnage.

I think Lennon was thick and ordinary in everything but having the sense to collaborate with McCartney long enough to establish his legend.

Does evidence exist that their collaboration was one sided. Iv'e never read that, but I have read just the opposite.

I remember enjoying "John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band" back in the day. Does your antipathy toward John get in the way of enjoying the Beatles?

Funny-all this started with my mention of the B52s!

[Rick Barton]

Ok, here's another great B52's tune. It's "LEGAL TENDER"!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWBb593zxrw

[Underzog]

What did Normon Podhoretz say? "The interesting thing about today's anti-Semites is that they always deny what they are"?

Even David Duke denies he's an anti-Semite.

And since you're so hot to bash the Jews, I have some fun things for you and the rest of the Libertarians.

Chew on this, Proposed Amendment to ban Islam

A Proposed Constitutional Amendment
Background and justification to Amendment 28

Whereas Religion is defined as an institution dedicated to improving social conscience and promoting individual and societal spiritual growth in a way that is harmless to others not participating in or practicing the same;

Whereas the United States of America was founded on the ideals of individual rights, including the individual right to practice one's religion of choice, or no religion, and that there would be no compulsion of religion, nor state sanctioned religion, nor a "religious test" for participation in the body politic;

Whereas Islam includes a complete political and social structure, encompassed by its religious law, Sharia, that supersedes any civil law and that Islam mandates that no secular or democratic institutions are to be superior to Islamic law;

Whereas Islam preaches that it and it alone is the true religion and that Islam will dominate the world and supplant all other religions and democratic institutions;

Whereas Saudi Arabia, the spiritual home of Islam does not permit the practice of any other religion on its soil and even "moderate" Muslims states such as Turkey and Malaysia actively suppress other religions;

Whereas Islam includes as its basic tenet the spread of the faith by any and all means necessary, including violent conquest of non-believers, and demands of its followers that they implement violent jihad (holy war) against those un-willing to convert or submit to Islam, including by deception and subversion of existing institutions;

Whereas on 9/11/2001 19 Muslim hijackers acting in the name of Islam killed 3,000 Americans, and numerous other acts of terrorism have been directed at the American people around the world;

Whereas representatives of Islam around the world including Osama Bin Laden (architect of 9/11), the government of Iran including Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, HAMAS, Hezbollah, and other Islamic groups have declared jihad (war) on America, and regularly declare that America should cease to exist;

Whereas there is no organized Islamic opposition to violent proponents of Islam;

Therefore: Islam is not a religion, but a political ideology more akin to Fascism and totally in opposition to the ideals of freedom as described in the United States Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights.

Be it resolved that the following Amendment to the Constitution be adopted:

Article I

The social/political/ideological system known around the world as Islam is not recognized in the United States as a religion.

The practice of Islam is therefore not protected under the 1st Amendment as to freedom of religion and speech.

Article II

As representatives of Islam around the world have declared war, and committed acts of war, against the United States and its democratic allies around the world, Islam is hereby declared an enemy of the United States and its practice within the United States is now prohibited.

Article III

Immediately upon passage of this Amendment all Mosques, schools and Muslim places of worship and religious training are to be closed, converted to other uses, or destroyed. Proceeds from sales of such properties may be distributed to congregations of said places but full disclosure of all proceeds shall be made to an appropriate agency as determined by Congress. No compensation is to be offered by Federal or State agencies for losses on such properties however Federal funding is to be available for the demolishing of said structures if other disposition cannot be made.

The preaching of Islam in Mosques, Schools, and other venues is prohibited. The subject of Islam may be taught in a post high school academic environment provided that instruction include discussion of Islam's history of violence, conquest, and its ongoing war on democratic and other non-Islamic values.

The preaching or advocating of Islamic ideals of world domination, destruction of America and democratic institutions, jihad against Judaism, Christianity and other religions, and advocating the implementation of Sharia law shall in all cases be punishable by fines, imprisonment, deportation, and death as prescribed by Congress. Violent expressions of these and other Muslim goals, or the material support of those both in the United States and around the world who seek to advance these Islamic goals shall be punishable by death.

Muslims will be denied the opportunity to immigrate to the United States.

Article IV

Nothing in this amendment shall be construed as authorizing the discrimination against, of violence upon, nor repudiation of the individual rights of those Americans professing to be Muslim. The individual right of conscience is sacrosanct and the practice of Islam within the privacy of home and self is strictly protected to the extent that such individuals do not violate the prohibitions described in Article III.

"There's no need to fear; Underzog is here!"

[Rick Barton]

Underzog:

And since you're so hot to bash the Jews, I have some fun things for you and the rest of the Libertarians.

So now you're not only continuing with unfounded accusations of racism. You're adding to them your own real racism. No thanks, Underzog, you mental midget.

[Underzog]

Mental midget Hitler boy?

You know what Mary McCarthy said? She said,
"Anti-Semitism is the intellecutalism of stupid people."

"There's no need to fear; Underzog is here!"

[Rick Barton]

Underzog,

Calling me ridiculous names and citing quotations can't exculpate you from the shame of falsely accusing me of racism. Again, you're way out of your depth on this blog, both intellectually and ethically.

And with your disgraceful bigotry (anti-Islamic in your case), you're right in line with fascists.

If anyone is new to this blog and tempted to take, in the least, my mental midget adversary seriously. please google me up and you can read where I've confronted anti-Semites on these threads-just as I now confront Underzog's anti-Islamic racism.

[Underzog]

Your obsession with the Jewish state -- even bringing it into a discussion on the "Sicko" movie in an exchange between Michael Moore and Wolf Blitzer damns you as an anti-Semite.

Moore and Blitzer were arguing about Moore's movie, "Sicko". They weren't arguing about Israel, but maybe you were thinking of your hero's, David Duke, clash with Wolf Blitzer earlier.

Also, your appeasement of our terrorist enemies further shows you to be anti American, too. People point out that anti Americanism and anti-Semitism are related mental depravaties.

You're proof of that. Anti Semites? Who us?

"There's no need to fear; Underzog is here!"

[Underzog]

This creep is what is referred to as The new anti-Semitism, driven by Islam

"There's no need to fear; Underzog is here!"

[Rick Barton]

Underzog,

In that comment I was talking about one of Michael Moore's other movies as well and I said:

"Michael Moore is mostly right about the Iraq war but he tends to leave out the very critical neocon push for the war because they thought it would be good for the Israeli government. He is only kinda right about what and is wrong and how wrong with American health care. He is way, way wrong on his solution to fix American health care."

Your sad lack of mental rigor or lack of ethics leads you to say that this "tags me as an anti-Semite."

I despise David Duke cuz he's a racist like you, Underzog.

Oh right, libertarians "appease of our terrorist enemies". We want to bring an end to a huge AQ recruiting tool.

Your obsession with the Jewish state...

I both know, and have read lotsa Jews who hate and oppose occupation and other actions of the Israeli government. What ridiculous and ugly name do you call these folks? "Self haters"?

Your demonstrated lack of the ability to carry on rational discourse is making me think that you might be a child.