Cavanaugh on the radio at 6pm Pacific time

I'll be doing my visaless exchange bit on something called The John and Ken Show coming out of KFI Los Angeles, at 6:00, California time. Not sure how long it will last. Tune in to 640 AM in the Los Angeles area, or listen live here.

Update: Well that was by far the stupidest conversation I've been involved in in a long time. And that was after they twice came back on begging me to do more segments with them. What a pathetic couple.

Comments

[Ken Shultz]

I thought I remembered hearing about The John and Ken Show before...I was thinkin' I'd heard about it here on Hit & Run. ...but maybe it was just one of the commenters.

[Ken Shultz]

...and by the way, Cavanaugh was doin' great--in spite of them refusing to let him finish his points--right up until the moment they hung up on him. I wonder if they'll put Cavanaugh back on after he showed 'em up so?

[Jeff Allison]

I AM A NATIVE CALIFORNIAN, LIVED IN SO CAL FOR 47 YEARS. IT IS NOT A BOOMING ECONOMY IT IS AN ECONOMY FOR THE RICH AND THE POOR, THE MIDDLE CLASS ARE LOSING THEIR STANDARD OF LIVING BECAUSE OF CROWDIFORNIA, YOU ARE AN ASS. WHAT GOOD IS AN ECONOMY IF YOU CANT TRAVEL TO WORK, SEND YOUR KIDS TO SCHOOL OR GO TO AN EMERGENCY ROOM. WHAT A NUT

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Sounds like you just don't have what it takes to hack it in a competitive economy, Jeff.

[Jim Walsh]

John and Ken used to be pretty good; they were compelling and fun to listen to without being over the top. It sounds like they've fallen into the trap of thinking they have to do the push-people's-emotional-buttons extremist thing. Sorry to hear it.

[Jeff Davis]

Too obvious that Cavanaugh has no idea what is really going on here in Southern California.

Funny when John called him on not being able to purchase a house down here. Sure you could, you just might have to live in a ghetto latino neighborhood. You know, the shantytowns Cavanaugh admitted he has witnessed down here. Hey, we are all equal so good enough for them should be good enough for Cavanaugh and his family.

Also like how Cavanaugh addresses two of our biggest problems here in Socal: The problems illegal immigrants bring to our schools and our emergency rooms. Cavanaugh: "uh, its a problem and it needs to be fixed". Brilliant!

Cavanaugh had nothing, NOTHING for John, Ken and their listeners. Completely out of touch and truly clueless about the very real hardships imposed upon Socal residents by illegal immigrants.

[Dale Meyers]

I heard you on John and Ken. They will never give you a chance to make a point. They are clowns, but they really do well when they pull the same stunt on silly politicians. But the open borders argument works only if you can make the point that no public services should be given to migrants or non citizens. You failed there by saying, "we just need to fix things". That gave them a big target. Welfare is the rael problem with the open borders policy. But then again if the government wasn't already supporting a sub-class of citzens then THOSE PEOPLE WOULD DO THE WORK. In any case John and Ken will never understand that government tampering with the economy has caused most of these problems in the first place, not the migrant workers by themselves.

[Thomas Paine's Goiter]

Aw crap - here come the nutbags.

[Jim Walsh]

...while we're on the subject, J&K lost me when they got the kiss of death from Ol Bag O'Hammers a few months back.
(Hell, if Malkin endorsed water, I'd stop bathing...)

[Jack]

Jim Walsh wrote: "they got the kiss of death from Ol Bag O'Hammers a few months back"

That's an insult to hammers everywhere!

[Rick Allen]

Tim did a poor job of supporting his argument on the radio today, in fact he sounded rather naive and out of touch with whats going on here in Southern California

I'm surprised that a person who writes for a magazine called "Reason" would rely so heavily on false premises to support his argument.

Most who live here in SoCal know that illegal immigration is ruining the quality of life here (even my Mexican wife knows this is true!). (And, yes, 95% of illegal immigrants in SoCal are Mexican)

Tim, my Mexican wife wants to know
why people like you never address the heart of the immigration topic? The conditions in mexico.
Our immigration problems would cease to exist if only mexico would meet the basic needs of its people. Mexico should be a rich, modern, industrial nation with plenty of jobs and services for its people. Instead a corrupt and incompetent government has allowed a select few to live in luxury while 100 million live in absolute poverty.
We never hear anything about this from those who profess to be concerned about immigrants, why ?

Which do you think is easier?

1) Change our entire society, laws, and Constitution of America, (and those of Canada, and Mexico) regarding sovereign rights, immigration, visas, borders,

or

2)Enforce our existing immigration laws, and pressure the Mexican government to provide it's citizens with a standard of living comparable to that other nations

By The way, here are a few of your false premises that Tim relied on to support his weak argument:

False Premise #1
Illegal immigrants do jobs that Americans won't do.

In fact, if you travel around the country today you will see Americans, mostly white people, doing these jobs. Throughout the rest of the country white and black Americans work in construction, clean hotel rooms, wash dishes in restaurants, dig ditches, mow grass... I did all of these jobs as a young white man living on the East Coast, as did most of my peers.

The problem is that illegals will do these jobs for dramatically lower wages. They are driving down the wages of the middle class, and lowering our quality of life.

These immigrants are so desperate they'll work for slave wages because thats better than what they have back in Mexico.

False premise #2
Illegal immigrants are good for the economy

In fact, illegal immigrants are a huge drain on our medical and social services. While many illegals are here to work, thousands of others are here just to receive welfare benefits. For example, many pregnant immigrants come to California to have an "anchor baby" (this baby is an instant American citizen and allows the parents to receive free monetary support).
Illegal immigrants are a huge drain on our schools. All over soCal, they have packed our schools with non-english speaking children. This holds back the progress of American students.
According to the LA county sheriff, 20% of criminals in the county jail are illegal immigrants. Thats good for the economy?

False Premise #3
Home prices are way up in SoCal, so the economy must be doing well, so illegal immigration must be good.

What?

First home prices are not necessarily a sign of a strong economy.
Second, I could use the same logic as Tim and argue that the war in IRAQ is good for the economy.
Why? Well, California has more military bases than any other state, the economy is doing well, housing prices are up, so war is good!

[The Wine Commonsewer]

John & Ken are semi-populist right wingers and are enormously popular in So Cal's afternoon drive time slot. Illegal immigration is a real hot button for them. They're good on some stuff, inconsistent as hell philosophically, effective in other ways, certainly a force that helped bring down the car tax and ex-governor Gumbi. I sure wish I'd have caught the show.

OTOH, Reason's Director of Education has been on the show several times in the last couple of months (most recently on Tuesday) in opposition to the Meathead Initiative (prop 82 Universal Preschool) and was, natch, well received.

I'm wondering if they made the Reason connection between Lisa Snell & Tim Cavanaugh. Hmmm.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Cavanaugh had nothing, NOTHING for John, Ken and their listeners.

That must be why they hung up on me, called me back, and then hung up on me again.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Welfare is the rael problem with the open borders policy.

Something I tried to bring up before they cut me off: Mexico provides a far more extensive welfare system than does the United States, a health care network that costs (supposedly) a flat rate of $399 a year for every citizen, free college education, etc. If your motive is to sit on your ass and collect welfare, your best bet is to stay in Mexico. The welfare state is one of the reasons people have to leave Mexico, not the reason they want to enter the United States.

Let's assume that the illegals' drain on social services is really a problem. (And in the case of California at least, I'd count a voting population that never says no to any form of public largess, a legislature and executive that no longer even try to balance the budget, and a gargantuan public sector union movement as culprits before I got around to illegals.) You can solve that problem with a) a new version of Prop 187 written so it has a chance at passing judicial review; b) a system (such as the one I'm proposing) wherein non-citizen workers would be on the books and paying taxes; and c) a change to the state's tax structure so that low earners are kicking in more $$$.

[shecky]

As someone who's lived in CA and Los Angles most of my life, I have to say things are going pretty well out here. Sure, the housing market is tough, as it is in any desireable location.

It is simply dishonest to blame illegal immigration for the indiscipline of our politicians and the voters who elect them.

I have to say the John and Ken show has been crap for at least ten years, as has been almost every program on KFI for at least 15 years. It takes a brave soul to even think reasonable debate is possible in such a forum.

[passingthru]

"You can solve that problem with a) a new version of Prop 187 written so it has a chance at passing judicial review..."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

Tim, didn't you know California is an ultra-left wing dictatorship? And which part of foreigner did you not understand? Do you let complete strangers who don't speak your language live in your house...uninvited?

I live in the San Fernando Valley. Ninety percent of the people I deal with on a daily basis are foreign. Most of the languages I hear spoken in public places are foreign. This is unacceptable! I have a right to live and work amongst my countrymen, don't I?

"Mexico provides a far more extensive welfare system than does the United States, a health care network that costs (supposedly) a flat rate of $399 a year for every citizen, free college education, etc."

Jesus Christ! Tim..."non-citizen workers" are bleeding us, scamming us, destroying us. They couldn't care less about the United States or its people. When will you get it? When a Hindu H-1b replaces you at Reason? When you'll be forced to live in a house with fifty other Mexicans? Or do think you're immune? What happens when the Chinese and the Indians outnumber the Mexicans? Have you been to the West Valley lately? It's quickly becoming New Bombay, replacing New Tehran.

I'm a good, honest, hardworking person, Tim. I resent being pissed on by foreigners and "natives" like yourself.

[Ron Hardin]

J&K are actually quite talented but have changed format to all outrage all the time, which gets better numbers, though not from me.

The non-OJ KFI years long ago, and their later morning show on KABC, were more whimsy and worth listening to, but didn't pull ratings.

Ratings is where you go. They sell audience to advertisers, not quality shows.

Blame the tastes of the public.

[Terrorific]

Passingthru...

I live in a relatively diverse place (Tokyo) and am, myself, a temporary worker. The only Japanese people I ever meet that are resentful about hearing different languages (Portugese, English, Spanish, etc) are old, idiot Nationalists.

What difference does it make what language other people speak? So you can eavesdrop on them? What difference does it make?

As a foreigner myself, I had to go through all of the hassle of getting visas, registration, and all that. It sucks. However, I know plenty of people who come here to work purely on tourist visas and either a) leave every 3 months and come back with a new visa or b) just avoid the authorities.

I did my visa the "legal" way, but I have no contempt for people who skirt the law. Why? Because I know it's stupid, expensive, and a pain in the ass.

Maybe this is a good opportunity for you to learn Spanish and maybe a new culture? Probably not.

[Anonymous]

Good for you passingthru.

At least you admit that you're a bigot that's just really mad at all those greasers and wogs.

Pass right on through now. Bye bye.

[SY]

I have a right to live and work amongst my countrymen, don't I?

I must have missed that part of the constitution. Help me out, which amendment was that?

[Cosmo]

The open border argument is interesting in that it belies the motives of the Dobbs/Hannity/John&Ken position:

They typically claim to "support legal immigration", and they are opposed only to *illegal* immigration.

So what happens when you propose to legalize/liberalize immigration? "Fuck no, those Brownicans speak Spanish and watch Univision!! They're poor and live in poor neighborhoods! They're screwing up the schools!"

They are confusing limited welfare-benefits with genuine rights. Instead of limiting welfare largess, they end up unwittingly treating rights like precious commodities, to be doled out to the brown proles obedient and docile enough to wait their turn in some orderly, imaginary "line" for citizenship. The eager, smiling brown faces that rush at them in the parking lot at Home Depot hoping to rake the dog shit off their lawn or build their house for a few hours scare them. Their poverty is ugly and possibly contagious. The 15 year old Guatemalan kid that will help load your car for $2 isn't wearing a corporate uniform. Where's his orange apron? There's no imtermediary - who's his supervisor? What if he steals from me? They work too cheap. They're too assertive. They don't have the proper paperwork. It's all so unseemly. Much better that they wait their turn before approaching me. In a tidy line. In Mexico. Forever.

This will never happen, but how about going one further than open borders: declare everyone in North & South America to be full-fledged US citizens. Because, you know, they *are* in fact human, and they do have rights, right?. What happens to the anti-*illegal*-immigration crowd's argument then? They are themselves sheep who want everyone else to behave like sheep too, in orderly and predictable ways. And they are hiding behind the law to disguise the fact that they are in varying degrees, scared, racist, and anti-immigrant.

[perroazul del norte]

"Something I tried to bring up before they cut me off: Mexico provides a far more extensive welfare system than does the United States, a health care network that costs (supposedly) a flat rate of $399 a year for every citizen, free college education, etc. If your motive is to sit on your ass and collect welfare, your best bet is to stay in Mexico. The welfare state is one of the reasons people have to leave Mexico, not the reason they want to enter the United States. "
What is the quality of the public health care system? I live in Costa Rica which has a similar system but most people opt for a private hospital if they can afford it due to overcrowded wards and incompetent public employees. Illegals can come to the US and recieve the best state-of-the art health care in the world free of charge? All they have to say is that they have no income or assets and are have/are using no ss number, whether it is true or not. With some 84 closed ER's in CA this must be what they are doing. What is your solution? To automatically give legal status for everyone who crosses the border? Oh, and what are the Mexican welfare state equivalents of TANF(formerly AFDC), food stamps, SSI, Section 8 housing, etc?
When you said that you wanted to move to LA but couldn't afford it John and Ken suggested you check out houses in East LA and you avoided answering the question. Are you a closet anti-Mexican bigot?

But libertarians are fantasists who create a world in their minds that could never exist in real life. Allow me to link to a blogger in touch with human action as it really exists:
http://dennisdale.blogspot.com/2006/05/memo-to-america-drugs-might-help.html
I will soon be done with this immigration issue; sometime after our leaders have codified into law the principle that human beings can be viewed as units of labor, subject to strict cost analysis and valued entirely thereby. They bring nothing more with them; except perhaps a deep love of the ideals we are currently rendering hollow at home and abroad

Culture, intelligence, group thought and resentment, human nature in toto; I'm relieved to learn from my betters that these things have been rendered meaningless by globalization and the conspicuous tolerance of our mandarins. Pay no attention to the angry mobs waving foreign flags; disregard the triumphant language of racial demagogues. Don't inquire what's to become of what's left of our republic. Comfort yourself with the knowledge that you haven't entertained thoughts that the nicely dressed people on television would find gauche.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

BTW,

I have a copyright on the phrase...

dumb as a bag of hammers>/em>

Pay up.

[perroazul del norte]

"Illegals can come to the US and receive the best, state-of-the art health care in the world free of charge? "
That question mark should not have been there.

If there were libertarians who backpacked or climbed mountains would they look upon a future California with 100 million people or a US with a billion people with such indifference? I don't think so. But libertarians tend to be fat-ass food freaks and/or cloistered bookworms, video game geeks, Trekkie nerds, etc.

When will Cavanaugh move to his new home in East LA so he can be near the "kickin' scene" he referred to? He said that he needed low-income housing to John and Ken. Will he choose a home near the one with the 500 fighting cocks cock-a-doodle doing all day. And what IS that "kickin' scene" ?

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Tim, is that 399.00 per yer social welfare cost a government cost or a cost to each citizen in tax?

[Duckman]

I'd like to answer this question from Rick Allen:

Which do you think is easier?

1) Change our entire society, laws, and Constitution of America, (and those of Canada, and Mexico) regarding sovereign rights, immigration, visas, borders,

or

2)Enforce our existing immigration laws, and pressure the Mexican government to provide it's citizens with a standard of living comparable to that other nations

This is a false choice, since I think the choice in option #1 is nowhere near as dire as Rick depicts. Our society has always evolved and changed with each new wave of immigration, and there have always been people who felt the sky was falling because the damn Irish/Italians/Germans/Jews/Mexicans/Indians/Chinese were filling up neighborhoods which used to be populated with "natives." Our laws need not change much, just perhaps to restrict government benefits to legals only (since arguments that illegals drain public resources are actually arguments that free public resources are a bad idea). The constitution need not change at all. We do not surrender our soverignty or borders to let people into the country, as many alarmists have claimed.

Option #2, enforcing our immigraiton laws and forcing Mexico to act, is unachievable. Laws which millions of people want to break are not enforcable, and I believe that you need only look to illegal immigration and prohibition to see evidence of this. No matter how much money (and the amounts being suggested recently are very substantial) we throw at the problem, I do not think it can be solved. And as far as forcing Mexico to act, what do you propose? About the only weapon (short of military action) we have is to cut foreign aid or impose trade restrictions, both of which will hurt the Mexican economy and make the economic situation worse than it is now, probably leading to an even greater migration of people. Plus, alot of the people who enter the US through Mexico aren't even Mexicans, they come from further down in Central/South America, so we would have to apply this pressure to all of those nations. The fact is that things like NAFTA/CAFTA are the most likely (long term) solutions to this problem, since free trade will improve the economies of the entire Western Hemisphere, leading to less urge for people to emigrate to seek better lives.

[perroazul del norte]

What is the secret plan to get illegal aliens to at least attempt to pay part of their hospital bills? Unless we truly attempt to control and penalize illegal immigration it is a hopeless quest. Build a wall, throw employers of illegals in jail and the world will start to take the US seriously instead of treating it with contempt. All in all a far better way of exhibiting the existence of a firm spine than, say, nuking Iran.

[perroazul del norte]

What is the secret plan to get illegal aliens to at least attempt to pay part of their hospital bills? Unless we truly attempt to control and penalize illegal immigration it is a hopeless quest. Build a wall, throw employers of illegals in jail and the world will start to take the US seriously instead of treating it with contempt. All in all a far better way of exhibiting the existence of a firm spine than, say, nuking Iran.

[Dale Meyers]

"Something I tried to bring up before they cut me off: Mexico provides a far more extensive welfare system than does the United States, a health care network that costs (supposedly) a flat rate of $399 a year for every citizen, free college education, etc."

You are right about Californian's voting for all kinds of senseless spending, but your argument that Mexico has a better welfare system seems silly and irrelevant. Paying American Citizens to sit on their asses and do nothing is certainly a big part of the overall problem. They should be doing this work. As long as we have feel good policies like rent control that drive the price of housing up and free public services that cause most anyone with access to them to abuse the priviledge we can't ignore the fact that importing more government dependents is going to cause further destruction of our culture.

My point remains, until government butts out of manipulating the economy, the benefit of open borders is questionable at least.

[Ken Shultz]

Build a wall, throw employers of illegals in jail and the world will start to take the US seriously instead of treating it with contempt.

I still don't understand why people should have to get government approval before they hire someone.

[MikeP]

throw employers of illegals in jail...

What amazes me is the desire of some people for the government to use employers as an an extension of police power and threaten insanely harsh treatment if they fail to comply.

What's next? Require employers to run monthly drug tests on all their employees? Require all tax returns to be submitted through the employer's accountants, so they can verify that everyone files, properly reports all in-kind compensation, and properly counts their deductions?

Or is it only laws against people who were born somewhere else that draw this treatment?

[Ken Shultz]

I also wonder how they see the people they want to throw in jail. When they talk about throwing employers in jail so glibly, it feels like they're talking about old white men in suits, with imported cars, country club memberships and trophy wives.

...but when I hear 'em talk about throwing employers in jail, I picture working mothers who think they've found affordable child care, old people on fixed incomes who can't do yard work anymore and people who are trying to keep a small, family farm afloat.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

...but when I hear 'em talk about throwing employers in jail, I picture working mothers who think they've found affordable child care, old people on fixed incomes who can't do yard work anymore and people who are trying to keep a small, family farm afloat.

What are you, a communist?

[Ken Shultz]

No,I'm not a communist. ...but I have learned to speak their language.

[Pig Mannix]

Maybe this is a good opportunity for you to learn Spanish and maybe a new culture? Probably not.

ROTFLMAO!!!

That's the funniest comment I've read here all week, and it had a lot of competition! It sums up the open borders debate in a nutshell:

Advocates presents us with a proposition that will obviously make our lives more complicated than they already are, does nothing to solve any of our problems, and then call us a bunch of fascists when we say "Over my dead body!".

Now, that's the way to win friends and influence people! You really wonder why most of the country is giving you the bird?

Anyone making the rounds on the talk show circuit with that kind of an argument might as well just get a job in a dunk tank.

[Jeff Allison]

Tim and anyone who does not see we cannot absorb Mexico's poor migrants at the rate they are coming to California have their heads up their asses
., oh, and Tim, I am handling the "vibrant" economy just fine, it is intellectual crap spinmeisters like you that I can't stomach. John and Ken had the guts to tell it like it is and are not right wing, they can't stand Bush and either can I. You people in Northern California have lost all sense of reality.

Maybe instead of occupying Irag, we should of just occupied Mexico. Tim says no borders is a good thing. This is what we call smart these days, I think you will all think twice when the economy takes a turn for the worse, which we all know it will because it is cyclical, then take alook around, we'll be in the same boat as all the immmigrants. AH, the irony of it all.

[Ken Shultz]

"This is what we call smart these days, I think you will all think twice when the economy takes a turn for the worse, which we all know it will because it is cyclical..."

To everything
turn, turn, turn,
there is a season
turn, turn, turn

Yes, boys and girls, the economy works that way too. First comes Spring with its rain, flowers and dew, then comes those lazy, hazy, crazy days of Summer. I don't think this guy knows why it changes so (He probably has an inkling that it has something to do with whatever Alan Greenspan used to do.), but after Summer comes Fall and, uh oh, Winter. You see boys and girls? It's like Disney's Circle of Life...

"...then take alook around, we'll be in the same boat as all the immigrants."

...except where Disney's Circle of Life was all wondrous and unexplainable, this guy's gonna blame Fall and Winter on immigrant labor.

P.S. What do you see as the impact of immigrant labor on inflation, and how would you characterize the relationship between inflation and "the economy"?

When Americans can buy things produced elsewhere for less, do you think of that as being good for "the economy" or bad?