Pat Tillman, RIP

The former NFL star who turned his back on a multi-million dollar contract to join the Army Rangers after Sept. 11, has been killed in Afghanistan.

Comments

[SR]

Other than his family, why should anyone else care that this fool got himself killed for nothing?

[thoreau]

Killed for nothing? In case you didn't know, Afghanistan is still the lair for a lot of people connected to the worst attack on US soil since Pearl Harbor. He put aside a lucrative career and gave his life fighting those guys. That's honorable, no two ways about it.

[Bob Basil]

It is unsavoury to the extreme to call Tillman a fool. He had the courage of his convictions, and he made a huge sacrifice in order to defend the United States. Going after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan is still a righteous cause. (Because one cannot say the same thing about the occupation of Iraq, it is very heartening to know that Tillman did not die there.)

[joe]

...and even if Afghanistan were a pointless cause, like Iraq, sacrificing your career, wealth and life to serve your country would still be a noble endevor.

[Les]

What thoreau and Bob said.

[Eric]

SR,
Get a clue, the guy's a hero. He gave up a job millions of kids and adults would kill to have - and make millions doing it - and instead took a job too many of us forsake to defend his country. And he didn't do it for the glory - he ignored practically all publicity opportunities and media requests.

I live in Phoenix, and watched him play football for ASU and the Cardinals. He's a local legend here, and now, an immortal one.

Godspeed.

[Decnavda]

Truely a hero.

[AJ]

Sorry about that. I got carried away with the Post button after receiving an "error" message the first time. Won't happen again.

[hitting the "POST" button]

Aside from the multiple post, that analogy sucks. How about a Nobel Prize-winning physicist with a cushy university lecturing job who gives it up to design better Kevlar helmets?

[matt]

I'm sorry that he died, like all those who have died in the "war on terror" so far, but like SR I can't call him a hero. I don't think it was terribly bright to give up a lot of money to go to Afghanistan, but I guess he did what he thought was right.

[Barry]

You sick vultures who wish to differentiate whether he was fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan make me want to vomit. Here was a guy who willingly gave up more glory and money than most will ever see just to try to help his country. His sacrifice would have been just as noble if he died in a plane crash while shipping out for training. I only hope his sacrifice can inspire others, rather than cause the sort of cheap speculation among the ghouls on this board.

[Pavel]

According to Ricardo's Law of Comparative Advantage, the guy wasn't a hero. He was a localized inefficiency in the system.

That God that's over now.

[AJ]

Again, I'm sorry for the multiple post. But I'll stick with my analogy. Designing Kevlar helmets is probably more valuable than being a university lecturer. Close call though.

[AJ]

Pavel, you put it a lot more elegantly than I did - comparative advantage. It was inefficient. Did I get it?

[Frank]

If everyone in this country were as cynical as some on this board, we'd deserve to lose to the terrorists.

[joe]

Barry, you talking to me? Work on that reading comprehension.

[Eric]

AJ,
Actually, your analogy stinks. A teacher can influence hundreds, if not thousands of students during the course of a career, and those students can then go on and do wonderful things, and probably affect and save more lives than someone desiging helmets.

And who are any of you to say he did the wrong thing, or wasn't very smart? It was his life, it's his choice to make. Should you have decided for him? If you can't get out of your own way to appreciate what this guy did, that's your problem, not his.

[Patriot]

These cretins calling Tillman a fool make me ill. Whether or not you think the war on terror is legitimate, you still have to respect his sacrifice.

I suspect those who say this simply disagree with his choice to go to war. He was a special person who was obviously driven by something else. The type of civil servant who believed that one person can actually change things.

And AJ - that analogy is terrible

[hitting the "POST" button]

If everyone in this country were as cynical as some on this board, we'd deserve to lose to the terrorists.

Actually, the fact that there are NOT that many cynical fucks making ghoulish comments on this forum gives me reason to hope.

[Victoria Blanche Psmythe]

I am appalled at the arguments offered up to attack the assertion that Tillman's behavior was foolish.
Bob's claim that "He had the courage of his convictions, and he made a huge sacrifice in order to defend the United States. Going after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan is still a righteous cause. "
joe's claim that "sacrificing your career, wealth and life to serve your country would still be a noble endevor".

These are formally identical to the claims that Mohammed Atta deserves respect for his martyrdom.
Bah. Disgusting.
The man was in service of the state, imposing the will of the state, and got precisely what that buys -- death.
How was what he was doing heroic?

Dame Victoria Blanche Psmythe

[Ken J]

SR-
Right or wrong, at least he had convictions and did something about it. What the f*ck have you done?

Look at me, I'm a hero because I get in pissing contests with strangers. Poor dumb Pat Tillman, he could have been pissing right here too. But now he's dead, and most ridiculous of all, for something he believed in.

Fuck you chikendoves. Go sign a petition.

[hobgoblin]

Obviously, the pseudo-Marxist "libertarians" on this board can't see anything outside of the material. Tillman is derided here for scorning that which is valued highest by the materialistic "right"---the fat wallet. Duty, honor, esprit de corps, loyalty---these things are valueless to you.

Those of you criticizing Tillman would do well to look into the soulless abyss inside of yourselves and see if that brings you comfort. Cold and cynical, you may well reply "no." But know this---you have missed out on the better parts of life with your vapid and conciousless materialism.

I pity you and pray that one day you will realize how much of life you are shutting out by your dogmatic insistance on the material aspects of life.

[hitting the "POST" button]

Hey hobgoblin,

would you mind playing with your straw men elsewhere?

[Anonymous]

Victoria Blanche Psmythe said: "The man was in service of the state, imposing the will of the state, and got precisely what that buys -- death.
How was what he was doing heroic?"

Hmmmm, let's see. The man gives up a cushy job, to fight murderers in Afghanistan so that you can sit at your computer and shit all over his memory. That's heroic. Anyone who is willing to sacrafice his life for the life of the undeserving such as those on this blog, is a hero.

As for hobgoblin, I object to your assumption that only those on the "right" are materialistic. Last I checked, many of the elites are left and are pathetically materialistic. Make no mistake, there are those on the right who are the same. I don't think you can actually categorize anyone's greed by their political affiliations or lack of. But I am in agreement with you, too many on this blog are way too materialistic. The fact that some are arguing that being a football star is far more important than serving in the military to protect the lives of ingrates such as themselves, is shocking.

[Mo]

I don't see any chickendoves. All the usual doves that commented thusfar, joe and thoreau, both said what he did was noble. I think what he did was brave and noble, like Ted Williams going overseas to fight for our country twice. He went after 9-11 to fight in Afghanistan, so the comparison to Atta is weak. He went after the den of those that attacked us and like many other brave men and women, made the ultimate sacrifice for our country.

He was probably highly respected by his fellow soldiers because of how much he gave up to join the armed forces. Maybe this'll shut up idiots like Rangel for a need for the draft. It's not just the poor or uneducated in the armed forces. They are made up of men and women that love this country.

[thoreau]

To the person who said designing better kevlar doesn't take a Nobel:

You'd be amazed at how much science goes into understanding, designing, and synthesizing better materials. Many people categorize eras of human history by advances in materials. Stone age, bronze age, iron age, etc. More recent ages would include the steel age and silicon age. When you consider that innovations in materials can push human progress by leaps and bounds, it shouldn't be any surprise if some of the best minds in science would put their efforts into designing materials. Don't mock the guy designing better kevlar, because he's probably well-versed in chemistry, quantum mechanics, math, and all sorts of advanced technologies.

And don't mock the guy who sacrifices his life to serve his country.

[jim]

"Took an army spot from someone who probably didn't have many other options"-- AJ, You're an asshole and an idiot for too many reasons to list. I've never seen someone fit so much ignorance and stupidity into one paragraph.

[Ricky]

"And Tillman took an Army spot from someone who probably didn't have many other options. I bet there had to be some resentment in the Army for doing that."

Any soldier that has the potential to be a Ranger will have no trouble finding work elsewhere. The soldiers that feel like they lack options become mechanics and cooks. Resentment? Why?

[esco]

Americans caring more about the lives of celebrities than anyone else, shocking! This guy deserves no more praise than any of the countless others who have died in the Bush Bonanza.

[Erik]

Well I guess it is up to me to mention that he did what he wanted to do. He made a choice, based on his priorities. Regardless of his contributions/potential in other areas (damn social planners, all of you), he was not beholden to anyone. He could and did as he pleased.

He made the choice to do what he felt was right. He's no more or less heroic than someone in the peace corp who tries to make a difference because they believe they can. Well, maybe he is more heroic, because he shunned personal glory. He chose according to his beliefs and didn't force them on others. He was free. He chose to associate with the Army, and chose to go into the Rangers, and chose to put his life in the hands of his buddies. They all accepted his life in the trasaction. Mutually agreed upon, no coercion, no deception.

I, for one, will drink to his memory and the values he represents. Here's to you, Pat. May we all learn something from your life, as well as your death.

[Pavel]

Americans caring more about the lives of celebrities than anyone else, shocking!

No, you're supposed to care about this guy not because he's a celebrity but because he abandoned fame and possible fortune to fight, and now die, for his country.

Personally, I don't care. But I can see why people who still believe in things might find it touching.

[jim]

Thankyou, Erik

[amr]

I'd consider him a hero, at least to me, because he did what I didn't. I supported both wars, but didn't put my ass on the line or really even think twice about it. He did.

And what kind of marxist libertarianism requires more utility (efficiency) out of people over their own free choice to do otherwise? Tillman found more value in lower-paying military service than higher-paying NFL playing.

And for you cynics out there, perhaps he hoped to turn his sacrifice into hero status on return home and endorsement for more money. In which case, he just got the bad end of what was probably a good bet.

[AJ]

"Well, maybe he is more heroic, because he shunned personal glory. He chose according to his beliefs and didn't force them on others. He was free."

How do you he wasn't seeking personal glory? He became more famous by joining the Army than he would have had he kept his NFL job. Perhaps he would've parlayed his Army fame into a lucrative book deal or perhaps he would've made millions lecturing around the country about sacrifice and personal glory? He was probably just as much of an egoist as you and me.

[Jason Ligon]

I'm not even sure that the Ricaran angle is correct. We are assuming that he was 'most best' at playing football, but we don't know how much he added in value to the military. I would wager with the athleticism, courage, and conviction he demonstrated, the comparative advantage is small if it even exists at all.

I, for one, will hoist one to Pat Tillman tonight. Few people get to sleep soundly with the knowledge that lived according to their convictions, and fewer still can look in the mirror and see that kind of courage every day. Without knowing anything else about him, these are precious things worth celebrating.

[bigbigslacker]

What could he contribute as an NFL pro? Help his team win some games? I don't see that as a great contribution to society. Posting here is better for the world than playing football - and that's not saying much.

[Eric]

AJ,
"How do you he wasn't seeking personal glory? He became more famous by joining the Army than he would have had he kept his NFL job."

Actually, he practically disappeared after he joined the army. He refused media requests, publicity, promotion, everything. We only heard updates from his family, and those were vague ("he's somewhere in Afghanistan") and infrequent.

You really should try to get just a bit familiar with the guy before you speculate on his motives.

[Joe L.]

Coming to these boards never fails to produce the phrase from me, ?One MORE reason I?m not a Libertarian/libertain/anarcho-capitalist?. Montesquie has a quote, ?The rational army would run away.? I believe he thought this made sense, if we were all rational, there?d be no war. Sadly, enough we aren?t, or thank God we aren?t.

The Anarchists bashing the ?state? (Dame Psmythe) and others questioning the sacrifice of Pat Tillman are proof why rational anarchists and others of this stripe are so fundamentally wrong about the world view. IF everyone was a ?rational? I guess the world would be a ?Utopia?. Sadly enough, there are the Usama Bin Laden?s and Hitler?s of the world.

IF we can not stand up to these barbarians, then our rational little paradise will be overrun. So here?s to Pat Tillman, someone who died so that Dame Psmythe could sneer and others could call him a market inefficiency.

One last thing, I love the elitism here, Pat was foolish for giving up his career, well whatever. How often I heard that on campus, ?Well I have a PhD or my friends have a PhD and they can contribute SO much more by that than by being in the Services.? Yeah, only the homeless or the stupid join the military. I guess its good enough for THEM. But, we all know how much better we are? Yeah, right. I just hear condescension and elitism in many of these posts. The military is Ok for THOSE PEOPLE but not for the GOOD people.

So drive on you good, rational folk who would last about 20 seconds in the faces of the Muqtada al-Sadr?s or Mullah Omar?s of this nation, much less the world, but I end with the purported quote from Orwell, ?We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.?

[Craig]

This tragic loss of a true patriot brings to mind this great poem about the sacrafices soliders make:

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier who salutes the flag, serves under the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

- Father Denis O'Brian - U.S. Marine Corps

Rest in Peace Tillman. We will never forget you.

[Pavel]

joe,

I was quoting a scene from The Big Lebowski.

In doing so I was merely likening a particularly amusing moment in the movie to the rather dim notion that someone should be praised or respected because he acted on his convictions.

On the contrary, I think a stochastically generated list of "persons who have acted upon their convinctions with the greatest vigor" will, in fact, be mostly a list of assholes.

[wellfellow]

Tillman's a hero in my book. Bravo.

[split lip rayfield]

Allright I just came to say "rest in peace" and leave it at that but then I see "AJ" and "SR" and god damn you two idiot ingrateful wankers. Especially you , aj,fortelling us five times that you are an asshole. No, you SR, you are the worst, for being the first to post and then saying awful things about this wonderful man who sacrificed his life for this country. makes me sick, people like AJ and Sr.

I feel so small next to a man like Pat Tillman. I've done nothing for my country, sacrificed nothing, I have so few talents. Pat Tillman had many many talents. He even made millions of dollars playing a child's game for a living, and he gave it up for the ultimate sacrifice. Rest in peace, you admirable man. You are a hero. The Arizona Cardinals should rename their stadium Pat Tillman Memorial Stadium.

[matt]

Yes Joe L. its quite fashionable to paint anarchists or libertarians as "utopian." Wish I had a dollar for everytime I heard it. But I'm willing to be if the U.S. followed a policy of national defense (not to be confused with our current policy of national offense)then perhaps the terrorists would have had no incentive to attack us in the first place.

[matt]

Should read "But I'm willing to bet...."

[joe]

Craig,

Without the poets, reporters, lawyers, campus organizers, and protesters, those soldiers wouldn't be aiming their guns in the right direction.

Not sure about NFL safeties, though.

[Pavel]

I officially name the vitriol in this thread The Pat Tillman Memorial Vitriol.

[thoreau]

Joe-

You are 100% wrong when you say that the soldiers might point their guns in the wrong direction without the poets, lawyers, journalists, etc.. Those people aren't there to make sure the soldiers point their guns in the right direction. They're there to make sure that the politicians don't order those guns pointed in the wrong direction.

I have a lot more confidence in your average patriotic guy than I have in the corrupt idiots in power.

[Joe L.]

Matt,
Well at the risk of Goodwin?s Law being invoked, I?d say ?If only Mr. Hitler could bring a just settlement to the injustices of the Versailler Diktat, reunite the Volk Deutsche, and settle the ?Danzig Question? I?m sure that there would be no need for the Germans to threaten anyone.? As the current crops of Fascists (Islamo-Fascists) seem to bear a grudge for the loss of Al-Andalus I?m not sure exactly what we could do to make them not hate us.

I guess we could put our women in potato sacks, shut down Bryn Mar, and start stoning the gays and lesbians in our society, but beyond that I think they will hate us and eventually have to attack us. This site celebrates Freedom and Individual Liberty; those are not things that Hussein or Same will EVER tolerate.

And yes, this site is Utopian and Millennial? That is a good thing, in some ways. Libertarians and anarcho-capitalists dream big dreams. That?s good. It?s a big dream that will never happen and thank God for that, too. Much of this portion of the Internet is very much akin to ?Idealists? that populated the inter-war years of the 1920?s and 1930?s. Great ideas, which simply could not deal with the very real problems and evils of those times.

[JDM]

The imbecilic prattle from the "not a hero" crowd really only throws Tillman's conduct into starker contrast. By all means, keep embarrasing yourselves.

[JDM]

"Without the poets, reporters, lawyers, campus organizers, and protesters, those soldiers wouldn't be aiming their guns in the right direction."

That's the dumbest thing you've ever said.

Actions > words

If more people would spend their lives solving problems rather than demanding that someone else solve them, we'd all be much better off.

[Dan]

You know, when people ask me my political persuation, I used to say "Libertarian". Proudly.

Now I say, "I'm a small-l Libertarian", or "I'm a classical liberal", and I have to explain that I'll have NOTHING to do with the Libertarian Party.

And you know why? Because I refuse to be even remotely associated with the kind of obnoxious twits like the anti-Tillman posters in this thread. And sadly, the Libertarian party is rapidly filling up with these types.

Here's a quick re-hash of the reason why Tillman is a hero: 1) One of the proper functions of government is to protect us from agression by others. 2) The United States was attacked by a vicious enemy who threatens to attack again. Therefore, at least the war in Afghanistan is a good, proper conflict for Libertarians to defend. 3) Libertarians are supposed to eschew conscription, but the only way to avoid conscription is to convince enough people to willingly place their lives between their loved ones and the desolation of war. 4) Therefore, people who volunteer to serve in the military in times of just conflict should be honored. 5) Most especially, people who go through great personal sacrifice to protect their country are deserving of our highest honor.

For you small-minded idiots to defame someone like Tillman just because you have your panties in a bunch over GW Bush's war in Iraq shows just how shallow your core values are.

You make me sick.

[Jason Ligon]

The thing about convictions is that they don't tell you, in and of themselves, what sort of person you are. Being true to crappy convictions makes you a crappy person.

The admiration, for me, comes from the courage required to live a life of actions that even remotely resemble the actions of the man you wish you were. Consistency of hand and mouth is hard to come by.

Tillman happens to have made a decision here that I hope I would be strong enough to make - but honesty compells me to admit that I probably wouldn't unless I had a personal attachment to a 9/11 victim.

If you don't find a bit of who you would like to be in his actions, fine, but I think it is terribly arrogant to cast aspersions at those of us who do.

[disgusted]

The people in the "not a hero crowd" are, to man, not willing to lick Pat Tillman's boots. Tillman didn't just sacrafice money in order to risk his life for his country; it was more than that. He could have entered as an officer but he went in as a regular enlisted man. He could have given interviews to the press and received accolades but he granted no interviews.

To me, Pat Tillman is the picture of integrity, character, fortitude. He is a hero's hero. What can there possibly be in the concept of manhood that wasn't embodied by Pat Tillman?

You jerks who say nasty things about Tillman deserve to rot in hell. WTF are you thinking? You ought to be ashamed.

[disgusted]

From the first line:

"willing" should instead be "qualified"

[matt]

Well Joe L. as long as you're invoking Hitler I might as well point out that without America's late arrival into WWI there likely would have been a stalemate between the two sides. Instead the Allies won and Germany was forced to agree to a humiliating and devastating surrender, which Hitler used quite effectively in his rise to power in the 1930's.

[matt]

And look, all of us in the "he's not a hero crowd," are not necessarily trying to defame this guy's character. He might have been a generally good guy...I don't know. I don't know him personally so I couldn't say.

But when you work for a criminal organization (that's how I view the state, I know most of you don't agree) and volunteer to go oversees to do its bidding then you're setting yourself up for trouble. So no, I don't think he's hero.

[John M. Joy]

Hmm. I find it interesting that those posters offering the "bravest" (or, more accurately, "most vicious") messages here (this thread, or elsewhere) tend to be those who choose to do so while shrouded in anonymity.

JMJ
(who signs with his real name, and a quick link away from contact information)

P.S. On the topic of the thread: some of us must qualify what ordinarily would be nothing but admiration for the man, with elements from our personal belief systems. Mine, for instance, prohibits abdication of individual rational judgment (as would be the case, for instance, with an oath to obey orders of the PotUS and chain of command per the UCMJ - or, for that matter, the Connecticut juror's oath, which effectively prohibits nullification). As such, I am compelled to consider service in the US standing armed forces ("the reg'lars") to be morally suspect, at best. And no, I don't really give a damn what the rest of you think about this belief - I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

[Jennifer]

Disgusted: "To me, Pat Tillman is the picture of integrity, character, fortitude. He is a hero's hero. What can there possibly be in the concept of manhood that wasn't embodied by Pat Tillman?"

Does this mean that manhood is defined by whether or not somebody goes to war? Or is it professional athleticism that makes the man?

[Erik]

Jennifer (not to jump in for the person you are directing the post to), manhood should be defined by what values a culture prizes. Honesty, integrity, compassion, honor, duty, conviction, intelligence, and rationality all come to mind. All but compassion come to mind. Reading a little bit more about Mr. Tillman (he did 30 days in juvie for defending a friend in high school, but 30 days is a hell of a lot of defending), he seems to exhibt all of those characteristics. He didn't even have to mention the juvie bit, but he did in an SI interview when asked if he had ever been arrested.

I'm sure others can add to the list or argue with "what makes a man". I guess I probably should have added "knowing when to hold your tongue, even if you are right".

I'm not going to go on lauding the man. I deeply and profoundly agree with what he did, if not entirely with why he did it. I figure that many others do as well. Those that don't, well, that's what Mr. Tillman died for.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer (not to jump in for the person you are directing the post to), manhood should be defined by what values a culture prizes. Honesty, integrity, compassion, honor, duty, conviction, intelligence, and rationality all come to mind.

Cool! That means I'm a real man, too.

[Brian in CT]

I can't help but think that if less people volunteered for service, we would be less equipped to wage optional wars like the one in Iraq. It's always sad when a person dies, but perhaps some young people will learn from Tillman's experience and think twice about enlisting.

[Jason Ligon]

This is a profound divide. I don't mean to dump on this board, but I find myself as ideologically removed from some folks posting in this thread as I feel removed from fiscal conservatives who want to legislate away homosexuality. I don't think I have ever found myself in this position whilst in libertarian waters. I just don't get it.

I gather from JMJ's comments that the police, as enforcers of laws collectively determined, must be similarly tainted. I have even personally observed that I believe the armed citizen to be on superior moral footing to the officer for that reason. What I can't follow is the idea that if a guy wearing a police uniform saves someone from being killed, the critical lesson about him is that he was immorally contracted to the state. Such an observation, in the context of events, would be so far down the table of signifigance that it might not even occur to me for months.

Does a uniform truly stain someone so badly that the universals, the things that for writers since the first run of Gilgamesh the King have defined protagonists, get relegated to a dependent clause in a tirade?

[Jean Bart]

Erik,

To echo Jennifer's thoughts, I cannot see how those would not apply to a woman.

BTW, right or wrong, you don't dishonor the dead unless they did something dishonorable (and showing caskets of the dead is not dishonoring them - if it were, then tens of thousands of coffins and graves shown in WWII news film would have been dishonoring the dead, much less the gruesome pictures of the dead lying on battle fields in that war and other wars). Conversely, I do not see how leaving the NFL for the military made him heroic.

[cbk]

Thank you Jason!

When I read matt's assertion I thought, does he think firemen who sacrifice for the good of their community are not heros (or at least worth our respect and admiration) simply because they work for the state? Regardless of their behavior in that service? Regardless of the benefit to his community?

What kind of logic is that?

I don't know Tillman, don't follow sports, think the NFL is a huge waste of money and time and a stain on our culture.

And I'll concede that all our soldiers who behave with integrity are worthy of our admiration. We don't know what sacrifices they made on our behalf. They could be equal or greater than Tillman's. But make no mistake, they sacrifice for our sake. We reap the rewards of their choices and sacrifices. As do the police and the firemen and any other man or woman who put's himself in harms way for the sake of his fellow man.

CBK

[cbk]

Stolen words from:
http://www.southernreporter.com/2004/04/upon_the_death_.html

AN EXCEPT:

"It's become somewhat of a trend of late to disdain those who use the word "hero." I've always thought of our soldiers as heroes, each and every one. Their mission is not trivial, whatever their reason for entering the military. Their sacrifice is not common, no matter what they left behind. Each of their lives are in jeopardy every single day that you and I spend drinking Starbucks and playing golf. Heroes are defined by sacrifice and mettle under fire. Speaking for myself, I'm not sure if I could voluntarily walk away from the riches, the glamor, and the comfort of playing a professional sport in the U.S. and onto a battlefield fraught with the risk of losing everyone and everything I love. That's an extraordinary leap. Not to discredit any of our service men and women, but Tillman's was probably a vastly more complex decision than many of those entering the military make when they choose to become soldiers. Yet in the end, like every one of his fellow Rangers and Army soldiers, the most important consideration was duty. In my mind, I like to think that I'm a strong enough person to make that kind of sacrifice. Tillman did what many of us only think we could do.

Pat Tillman is, and will remain, an American hero. As a soldier. As an athlete. As a man."

[joe]

thoreau, the process may be indirect, but it's still there.

JDM, what you call "words," other people call "culture," and people with an understanding of history realize how important culture is in determining how and why a nation sends its military to war. Every time you post, I'm amazed by what a shallow thinker you are.

[scott]

I have always defined myself as Libertarian by creed but not in reality. Tonight I learned that most of you fucks are going to go down as the circle-jerk of history.

Regardless of how you feel about the war, there is no way anyone can not admire Mr. Tillman. If there is a living John Galt, this guy is about as close as you would find.

Thank God for Irish Whiskey and Thank God for men like Pat Tillman - and of course, I don't think there is a god!

[scott]

I have always defined myself as Libertarian by creed but not in reality. Tonight I learned that most of you fucks are going to go down as the circle-jerk of history.

Regardless of how you feel about the war, there is no way anyone can not admire Mr. Tillman. If there is a living John Galt, this guy is about as close as you would find.

Thank God for Irish Whiskey and Thank God for men like Pat Tillman - and of course, I don't think there is a god!

[Les]

Jack,

How do you know what Tillman was doing in Afghanistan?

I've been and will continue to be critical of U.S. military operations, but it seems to me that the people who have regularly guided this country up shitcreek are the ones who pretend to know something when they don't know anything at all.

[John M. Joy]

Ah, still more "bravery" from our anonymous peanut gallery.

'hitting the "POST" button' indeed.

JMJ

[dj of raleigh]

"Other than his family, why should anyone else care that this fool got himself killed for nothing?--------Posted by SR "

Fools reveal themselves.

[dj of raleigh]

Disgusted: "To me, Pat Tillman is the picture of integrity, character, fortitude. He is a hero's hero. What can there possibly be in the concept of manhood that wasn't embodied by Pat Tillman?"
===============
Does this mean that manhood is defined by whether or not somebody goes to war? Or is it professional athleticism that makes the man?
----Posted by Jennifer

Jennifer's mission is to diminish, to find fault,
to resist anything that might be pro-administration,
even when hearing praise of a dead soldier she is against.
Just let it go, let people find comfort,
have words to soften the 'clods as they fall.'

Pat Tilman was a man's man, a good American,
whether Afghanistan is just or not matters not.
He loved his country. He went to serve it.
He didn't go in hate. He had a sense of duty.
Pat Tilman paid the ultimate price.
Whatever his human faults, they are past.
I was one of his people, and he will always be one of mine.
I choose to speak well of him here and now.
There was good in him, much to admire.
He died loving his country, my country.

"Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy, it does not boast,
it is not proud.
It is not rude,
it is not self-seeking,
it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil
but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts,
always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails."

1 Corinthians 13:4-8a

[John M. Joy]

At 16:52 on 2004-Apr-24, "dj of raleigh" writes:

Jennifer's mission is to diminish, to find fault,
to resist anything that might be pro-administration,
even when hearing praise of a dead soldier she is against.

and

Pat Tilman was a man's man, a good American,
whether Afghanistan is just or not matters not.

Ummm... methinks Jennifer is querying what it means to be the aforementioned "man's man," or, more's the point, what others are implying by this. I, for one, am not inclined to agree with your premise (above), as I believe I have mentioned already (that "delegation of independent rational judgment" thang, and all).

Then again, you quote the First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, from which one could infer you are some variety of Christian, which I am not, so we may be compelled to agree to disagree on matters concerning certain value judgments.

FWIW, I doubt Jennifer intend(ed)(s) to "dis" Mr. Tillman, the man or his memory (it certainly isn't my intent, either); the beef is probably with what values or conclusions are being promoted/drawn by others here.

JMJ

[Jennifer]

DJ-
If love is "not rude" and "not easily angered," perhaps you could use a bit of love in your own life. If you can find even one example of me insulting the late Mr. Tillman, I would be very interested in reading it.

Does love tell lies about those whose political opinions are different from its own?

[Jason Ligon]

"On the topic of the thread: some of us must qualify what ordinarily would be nothing but admiration for the man, with elements from our personal belief systems."

So his actions, apparently within the realm of comparison to rounding up orphans to shoot them, are at least worth mentioning as admirable in a sidenote when doing so helps the digestability of one's positon.

An officer down while protecting someone from a threat they had no capability to repel on their own is where I was going. Why is it significant that the act of saving our collective asses from another bomb took place in another country?

I know, I know, you never asked for any such protection, and I wish to hell there were a way to exclude you from it so that you can live the way you want to live. You could be free from the oppression of having people like Pat Tillman volunteer to swing the sword on your behalf.

Freedom, including the freedom to spit on someone's grave, is an unstable state. Virtue, exactly like corruption, can only prevail under the threat of violence. In the absence of virtuous violence, the other kind wins. Violence and the threat of violence keep free people free, and if you aren't carrying the sword, you are the benificiary of someone else's choice to do so. I find it remarkable how many people can't simply say, "Thank you," to someone who risked everything to make that choice.

[Jason Ligon]

And, by the way, no one can do this:

"that "delegation of independent rational judgment" thang, and all".

The choice for you to listen to a financial planner instead of doing it yourself is a delegation of personal judgement in some sense, but each choice is always yours. The UCMJ is no more a delegation than the the Code of the laws of your state is. It just sets up consequences for choosing certain actions over others.

[nobody]

Those of you who are still wringing your hands over the sad state of libertarianism may wish
to (re)examine objectivism. Dealing exclusively with the real world is so much more efficient and gratifying than engaging in endless debates over what makes a "small l" or "large L" libertarian.

[John M. Joy]

Jason Ligon writes:

Why is it significant that the act of saving our collective asses from another bomb took place in another country?

For one thing, not all of us believe this is what is occurring (the "ass-saving" that is).

I know, I know, you never asked for any such protection, and I wish to hell there were a way to exclude you from it so that you can live the way you want to live. You could be free from the oppression of having people like Pat Tillman volunteer to swing the sword on your behalf.

EASY ON ME WITH THE ATTITUDE, JASON. The issue isn't with the swinging of swords as such. I spend a chunk of what little free time I have training to do such things (at least, using the weapons at my personal disposal). This is not only for my personal protection, but to do my part as a member of an armed populace generally.

Virtue, exactly like corruption, can only prevail under the threat of violence. In the absence of virtuous violence, the other kind wins. Violence and the threat of violence keep free people free, and if you aren't carrying the sword, you are the benificiary of someone else's choice to do so. I find it remarkable how many people can't simply say, "Thank you," to someone who risked everything to make that choice.

It depends on whose sword is being carried, and at what it is being directed.

As to "beneficiary" ...

As much as many of the posters to this forum - as well as several members of the staff of the publication which hosts it - would like to wish it away, the fact remains that, at the time of the actions of a certain nuttier subset a few Septembers back, the Islamic world had three primary gripes at the US: the general disregard the US has shown them, as exemplified by the mountain of corpses in Iraq (and driven home by remarks such as those of Mad Maddie Albright); troops in the Islamic Holy Land; and the obvious one-sidedness regarding the Israel/Palestine issue. This is to say: Interventionism, interventionism, and interventionism. And that was before the 2001 attacks (which, thusly, were - everybody now: "BLOWBACK!") and the inevitable, all too predictable Demopublican and Republicratic response.

How have I "benefited" from this? Higher tax burden and/or national debt (with all its implications), loss of business opportunities especially with folks overseas, attacks by those very same Demopublicrats who brought us this mess in the first place on my civil liberties, oh, and lest we forget, increased risk of personal danger both at home and abroad due to all the pissed off crazies.

Now, if you are to argue that Joe Footsoldier isn't in a position to be questioning such high-level, abstract matters of foreign policy, then we're right back to my argument about abdication of independent rational judgment, or, more simply put, becoming a pawn.

Now, as to:

The choice for you to listen to a financial planner instead of doing it yourself is a delegation of personal judgement in some sense, but each choice is always yours. The UCMJ is no more a delegation than the the Code of the laws of your state is. It just sets up consequences for choosing certain actions over others.

World of difference here. I hire a financial consultant after careful search and evaluation, and reserve the right to fire same if I'm not satisfied with the quality of advice. As for the legal system (which, of course, is frequently odious), I'm stuck with it, but not by my personal choice. Sufficiently odious portions, as I encounter them in real world situations, I can and will ignore, and if I'm caught, I'm caught, and in the same moral state as someone unfortunate enough to be mugged. Moreover, to whatever extent (not much!) I can work to change the odious parts, I do.

The enlistment oath, OTOH, is entered into voluntarily and, by its very nature, requires, without realistic option for separation, delegation of one's "Is this really right? Is it a good idea for me, my family, my community, my nation?" reasoning to the likes of George W. Bush and William J. Clinton.

JMJ

[joe]

"Thank god there are people like you who can tell Pat Tillman what to do."

There's a lot of work to do on you, JDM.

Bearers of culture don't tell Pat Tillman what to do. We tell the people who tell Pat Tillman what to do, what to do.

You seem to prefer the Prussian system.

[John M. Joy]

AT 21:37 on 2004-Apr-23, Jason Ligon writes:

I gather from JMJ's comments that the police, as enforcers of laws collectively determined, must be similarly tainted.

In practical terms, probably yes. The issue is one of separability. A police officer, faced with performing what he regards as an immoral/unwise/... act, does have the option of separation, i.e. terminating employment with the law enforcement agency in question. Trouble is, LE, like any career path, requires substantial investment in time/enegry/effort in training, ... Thus, if one had serious concerns about the laws one would be called upon to enforce, one would be well-advised to reconsider LE as one's career.

Needless to say, such a separability option does not exist while serving in the regular armed forces.

What I can't follow is the idea that if a guy wearing a police uniform saves someone from being killed, the critical lesson about him is that he was immorally contracted to the state.

Technically speaking, the analogy doesn't hold. We are not discussing a case of an officer down while rescuing the orphans from the burning building, we're discussing a KIA while carrying out orders during a military operation in a foreign land. (And I'm adding the "officer down" part to yours to reconcile the two somewhat.) The laudable act, in your example, is the rescuing of the orphans, and would doubt any rational individual would quibble with that, regardless of whose uniform (if any) was worn.

C/c with, for example, "officer down while rounding up homeless orphans for extermination (which, sadly, is not unheard of in some countries), said officer being attacked by said orphans" - or even, I would argue, "officer down while confiscating pot required by cancer patient to make life bearable."

JMJ

[Jim]

point blank:

a very good % of these people you call "heroes" and "brave" would elect to leave the military if that were a realistic option for them... they fight these wars because they are forced to, not because they choose to... many of these same people joined to get money for college or to support their family, but would have held off if you would have told them that they would be in a war... keep that in mind when throwing these terms around like it applies to every single soldier...

and last time i checked, "brave" and "foolish" were not mutually exclusive terms... its "brave" to run into a burning building with no firefighting equipment on to save someone, but foolish and quite idiotic at the same time... its "brave" to stare down a building as you run into it at 500mph in an airplane because you believe that 72 whores are waiting for you in heaven, but moronic at the same time..

stop making these terms mutually exclusive when they are not... i have a ton of respect for tillman to give up what he did, that is brave and honorable, but there is a VERY THIN LINE between brave and just outright stupid and IMO he has/had feet on both sides of that line to walk away from millions to really not contribute much in the end... make no mistake, he made not one shred of difference in the war.. and at the end of the day, all that "honor", "bravery", "love for country" and a token gets you on the train..

[John M. Joy]

At 02:29 on 2004-Apr-24, "scott" writes:

Regardless of how you feel about the war, there is no way anyone can not admire Mr. Tillman. If there is a living John Galt, this guy is about as close as you would find.

Hmm? In what way(s)? Did his premature departure from pro ball "stop the motor of the world" (or even the NFL)? Was that even his intent?

JMJ
P.S. I will second your motion on the Irish whiskey, though.

[Andrew Lynch]

"...but there is a VERY THIN LINE between brave and just outright stupid and IMO he has/had feet on both sides of that line to walk away from millions to really not contribute much in the end... make no mistake, he made not one shred of difference in the war."

Before I had the good sense to edit my post, I wrote, "You are a disgusting human being to equate millions of dollars with a choice to defend country, and even more disgusting to presume that you know one fact related to his contribution to the war."

Thank goodness we can edit our posts before we commit them to the nothingness.

[kwais]

Pat Tillman was a hero. All y'all that don't see that are assholes and you live in a fantasy land. Not willing to give a brave man his dues because the Government is not exactly the way you want it to be? Good, fuck y'all, stay in your little reality, don't go and try and make little changes to make things a little more free. Go on critisizing good people who do noble things because the government isn't to your standard.

[Glenda]

Joining the military is an optional decision. To join the military--whose purpose is to fight for and defend our home land, our homes, our "right" to display your opinions-- means that, despite what militray ads might lead one to believe with their focus on training for life, some day a soldier will have to fight. Tillman was a soldier, an intelligent and patriotic man. I am sure he understood this. We can put all the flowers on cannons we want and display all the hero plaques we need, but the real heroes are the walking wounded who are left behind.

Glenda

[JDM]

joe,

Yes, well since history and the positive values of our culture are unequivocally carried forward more by the average campus organizer or lawyer (urban planner?) than the average NFL pro who gives up his career to die doing the only thing he feels he can to defend freedom and civilization, you're making even more sense now. Thank god there are people like you who can tell Pat Tillman what to do.

[JDM]

The truly sad thing about this specatcle is how much this exposes the pathetic, self-centered psychology that drives so many to libertarianism. Or maybe just the majority of people who post to web boards about it. When a man who would fit any definition of hero that's been put forward in the last 2000 years dies, and all you can do is think to use it as a sounding board for your own mastery of the knee-jerk libertarian dogma, you aren't a very balanced human being. Congratulations on twisting yourselves into wretched cynics, it's something to be proud of.

[Jack]

disgusted wrote: "The people in the 'not a hero crowd' are, to man, not willing to lick Pat Tillman's boots."

Freudian slip?

And the number of people on this ostensibly "freedom loving" board who believe getting your brains splattered while harassing some shepherds in a foreign country is "noble" shows this country is up shitcreek. I'm not yet glad Tillman is dead, but the junior jackboot brigade here is pushing me that way.

[Jennifer]

He truly is a hero, if you define "hero" as "somebody who goes to war and gets killed."

By this standard, I fear that American heroes will soon be rather commonplace.

[hitting the "POST" button]

Hey, here's an idea. Why don't we abandon the navel-gazing logorhea and simply honor Pat Tillman for doing what most of us would never dream of doing: giving his life in combat for his country.

But like all good ideas, five'll get you ten that it will be ignored and the Wortschwall continues.

[JDM]

"Bearers of culture don't tell Pat Tillman what to do. We tell the people who tell Pat Tillman what to do, what to do."

Actually, the bearers of culture tell the aides of elected representatives, who tell the sub-comitee charimen, who cut backroom deals to influence legislation, etc.

But only an imbecile would think that makes a difference in deciding exactly who the bearers of the positive aspects of our culture are.

Given the rate at which your line of argumentation is devolving, I expect your next response will be whatever random keys are pressed by picking up the keyboard and chewing on it.

[zack]

I was reading a quote from Pat somewhere the said something like, "My family has a long history of fighting wars, and I haven't done a damn thing to defend our country" ...and when something as devistating as the 9/11 attacks happens, it's not foolish to be pushed over the edge and want to fight a war. He's not a fool in any aspect. He did what he felt like doing...for those of you that call him a fool, you are the real fools. Learn to understand other people. Not everyone is out for money, like yourselves, some people have values. Obviously Pat valued his family history and his country.

[zack]

And I hope those of you calling people who serve in the US military fools don't live in America. If you do you should be lined up and shot down into a trench. If it wasn't for people like Pat you wouldn't be living in a free country where you could do as you please.

[kevin shue]

The dude was gorgeous - what a waste.

[John M. Joy]

Today's New Haven Register had the NFL draft "moment of silence" story... on page ten of the sports section (and only occupying a few inches at that). It really drove it home: here's this guy who - I'm sure we can all agree - was very gifted and had so much potential, and by next week, save his family/friends or the odd scholarship fund in his name, even the oh-so-brave anonymous posters here with the Hotmail email addresses (if any) will have forgotten him and "moved on" - it's already quite literally "yesterday's news." Whatever I may think of his particular decision (and I'm being very sincere and serious in bringing up what I see as the profound moral and human nature issues involved)... DAMN, what a friggin' tragic waste. (And y'all wonder why I get so rabidly angry at the creatures we have inhabiting the swamp on the Potomic.)

JMJ

P.S. Mona: yes, you're probably right, foreign policy will divide us, and I'm probably going to be on the opposite side from you. I remain a firm believer not only in freedom and reason (lowercase 'r' 8^), but the immorality of aggression and - and this is critical - cause and effect. As such, I have to remain in the non-interventionist camp - and with the likes of Washington and Jefferson there, methinks I'm in good company. And as for denial, there's plenty of denial all around (e.g. the "they hate us because we're free" crowd).

[matt]

"And I hope those of you calling people who serve in the US military fools don't live in America. If you do you should be lined up and shot down into a trench. If it wasn't for people like Pat you wouldn't be living in a free country where you could do as you please."

Anyone else find this hilarious? Lined up and shot in a "free country," for criticizing the military. Please tell me you're joking zack.

[Dan Gerl]

the stupidity and cowardice of dickheads like AJ never ceases to amaze me. Thank God for men like Pat Tillman... and ask yourself what language we'd all be speaking if we'd had a military stocked with guys like AJ back in '42.

[Dan Gerl]

Kevin,
Pat Tillman's father mourn the loss of his son, but he can take comfort in the fact that a nation mourns with him, and will be forever grateful for who his son was.

Your father mourns the loss of his son, who he raised to me a man, only to see him turn into a sissy with a yen for boys. Oh - and no one really cares who the hell his son is.

What a waste.

[Mona]

John M. Joy writes: "As such, I have to remain in the non-interventionist camp - and with the likes of Washington and Jefferson there, methinks I'm in good company."

The world was a different place then; oceans did completely separate us from Europe. With modern transportation, economies and telecommunications, that separation is no longer the case in any meaningful sense, and certainly not when we can be reached by nuclear missiles and theocratic "martyrs" can crash airplanes into our buildings. Not when Americans are not safe when traveling or living abroad, as is increasingly the case in this shrinking world.

Further, the immorality of aggression is an insufficient moral axiom unless it explains when a target of aggression is the just concern of a people with the means to aid said targets (assuming, as I do, no conscription). (That is, when is my brother's plight my just concern?; a mere dedication to non-aggression does not answer this question.)I think preventing Hitler from killing 10 million people and invading all of Europe is a matter of aggression that should be our national concern. I further believe that a Middle East dominated by vicious theocrats who believe all Westerners are Satan and should die, and who have killed some of us, and who even tried to assassinate one of our former presidents (Saddam Hussein), are our just concern. Stopping them, and using force to make clear to them that if they fuck with us, oh my, there will be consequences, is not only moral, but the only sane policy.

But we do agree that this philosophical divide is likely to rip apart the libertarian block that agrees on most domestic issues, e.g., the immorality of the war on drugs. Too bad, but clearly unavoidable, when both sides find the other's foreign policy views morally repugnant.

--Mona--

[dj of raleigh]

> If you can find even one example of me insulting the late Mr. Tillman, I would be very interested in reading it.

[Seahas]

Pat Tillman was one of those people in the 100th percentile in terms of perfection. Not only was he a great athelete (almost an all-Pro NFL in the NFL -- he missed the ProBowl by a scant 256 votes in his last season), he also graduated from ASU magna cum laude with a 3.9 GPA with a major in marketing.
He ran a marathon, did a "tinman" length triathlon, and was an aspiring model.
He graduated the Army's Ranger course as the honor graduate (he was also honor grad of his platoon in Army basic training). The Army begged him to go to Officer Candidate School instead of enlisting, but he refused.
For those of us in the military who have experience in combat arms, you can make an educated guess that Spec. Tillman was probably one of those people who led the charge and was someone his NCO's and O's relied on to lead everyone.
I wish I had died instead of him. Not only is his loss overwhelmingly sad and emotional in nature, but our Ranger battalions in Afghanistan lost a great leader in the field who will be impossible to replace.

[John M. Joy]

But Mona... just there would have been no Hitler without Versailles (and Versailles being the product of Wilsonian entanglement), the "Great Satan" crowd would not be able to gain traction without those three grievances I mentioned earlier.

I mean, let's be honest here. Shoe on other foot: were another country to pull on the US what the US has pulled over there, regardless of what each of us may think of Dubya (and, as you might imagine, that's very little in my case), their guys were to come here, we'd try to take out as many as possible. At least I would. "Sling ordinance around my country, will you? Occupy my country, will you? Say the deaths of my country's children are 'worth it,' do you? I'll show you...!"

The average Joe Schmoe of the Islamic world, even if tisking at that "decadent West," is not especially likely to be strapping on the dynamite belt, unless he sees that he and his are being incessantly crapped upon (i.e. echoes of Versailles) and sees no other alternative.

Having been crapped upon, however, the "West vs. Islam" message is more readily accepted. Given that we're talking about a potential audience of something like a billion and a quarter...

JMJ

[Jennifer]

DJ-
Are you ever bothered by the knowledge that you can only win arguments by taking statements out of context?

[Mona]

JMJ: It is entirely possible the Treaty of Versaille made Germans more open to Hitler. However, it does not explain their great willingness to hate Jews and kill millions of them, along with retarded people, gypsies, and many other who were "sub-human." And also, in the last analysis, it has no bearing on whether the U.S. should have taken strong measures to stop this terror which sought to swamp Europe. We were right to do so, Versailles or not, and should have commenced doing it earlier than we did.

What do Afghanis have to do with the Palestinians? Or Iraquis? Even if every Palestanaian claim against the U.S. is true, how does that justify non-Palestinians in concocting bizarre, theocratic conspiracy theories which cause young Afghani, Saudi and other non-Palestinian men to kill us? It has nothing to do with their hatred of modernity ushered in by the West, and with our "decadent" culture? I think not.

MOREOVER, at the end of the day, even if the U.S. has done every awful thing you or any isolationist can claim, I still advocate killing all deranged, anti-U.S. theocrats who harm us, and gutting their allied states. Why? Because I like feeling safe, and demand that my nation do what is necessary to ensure that whatever disagreements go on among people and nations -- and on happy boards like this one -- anyone who kidnaps or kills U.S. citizns, gets fucked with, very hard. I'm not willing to see the Sears Tower also go down while we resolve all outstanding disputes.

--Mona--

[Nomad]

Let's get one thing straight: Getting killed in battle is not necessarily "heroic." That word has become so devalued in recent times that a fireman who pulls a cat from a tree is called a "hero". But the fact that Tillman chose to enlist in a particularly hazardous branch of the military during an actual war would qualify in my mind as "heroic." Whether that war is just is another subject entirely.

This forum should be called "Hit & Miss" for the quality of thinking herein.

[John M. Joy]

Mona:

I'm afriad you won't get your wish. In fact, interventionism has already reaped a dreadful harvest (most notably on 2001-Sep-11, but in other incidents as well), and, barring miracles, even if the course of US foreign policy is changed immediately, there will still be a complete generation of reprisals to endure. As an added bonus, with each new round of reprisal and response, the power hungry bastards in the Swamp will exploit the opportunity to further increase their power and decrease our freedom.

When it happens, you can thank interventionists and interventionism, as was the case three Septembers back.

I (selfishly) hope, for both of our sakes, that neither of us or our families or friends are caught up in it. (I was relatively lucky: while I didn't lose anyone I knew at the WTC - only a couple months of my time and some revenue - one friend lost an uncle while another lost his niece; I have clients and friends who live and work in Manhattan, and I take the train in from time to time, so I consider it a very close call.)

JMJ

P.S. Please sharpen your vocab. - "non-interventionist" > "isolationist"

[joe]

JDM, "Actually, the bearers of culture tell the aides of elected representatives..."

The bearers of culture influence the public, who both elect the government and determine the broad outlines within which it functions - including when and against whom it is appropriate to go to war.

Re-reading Mona's insightful post at 6:59 would be good second step for you to begin understanding this fairly simple concept. Fixing that carbon monoxide-leaking heater next to your computer would be the first.

[Pat]

In 1966 my father voluntarily left a professional football career, after 4 years, to join the Army. He later flew Huey slicks in Vietnam. During his tour, amoung many others, he saved 4 men of a downed gunship. Dad was awarded the DFC for his actions.
In 1993 I left my university football buddies behind to join the US Army. I was trained as an 11x-ray at Fort Benning Georgia. I walked the same parade grounds as Pat Tillman.
My father died of a heart attack 30 years to the day he returned from Vietnam. For those 30 years, he remained a hero to a lot of people. Few people take the high road in life.
The loss of Pat Tillman rips my heart out. If anyone truly knows what it is like to walk in a soldiers uniform, they'll agree with me.

[Mona]

JMJ spews: "When it happens, you can thank interventionists and interventionism, as was the case three Septembers back."

I see. OBL and the fanatical religionists he leads flew airplanes into our buildings because the U.S. has intervened in some Middle Eastern affairs, and/or because of the Palestinian issue. By not always conducting ourselves with pristine motives or as honorably as we might, we may as well have flown those planes into the Twin Towers ourselves, and really, we killed our own. Don't blame the jihadists, for what else could reasonable theocrats do in light of our evil?

--Mona--

[Donnie]

I will be totally honest. I didnt know Pat Tillman. Never heard of him until the day, they announced his death. I walked the same path as this brave man. NO I didnt play pro ball, Or have millions. I joined the army because I felt it my patriotic duty to serve. To protect what was given to me by soldiers past. FREEDOM. Now years later I can repay that favor. Tillman defined the word free. He had no reserves about leaving money, his new wife nothing. His heart was big and housed the pain of so many attacked and killed americans. Now morons come here and say he did it for publicity, looking to be even more famous. Well if that was the truth then maybe just maybe you need to do as joe said in the post before and fix the carbon monoxide leaking heater. This man did what you negative people wont ever in a million lifetimes be able to do. Your kids, their kids, and their kids will carry your same coward filled genes and never do anything as great as this man did.

R.I.P Pat your selflessness will not be forgotten

[Mona]

joe writes: "Re-reading Mona's insightful post at 6:59 would be good second step for you to begin understanding this fairly simple concept. Fixing that carbon monoxide-leaking heater next to your computer would be the first."

Thanks for the endorsement, and allow me to use it a launching pad for a clarification: I do not think the U.S. should indiscriminately kill all terrorists who have attacked us; if we have them in custody they should be prosecuted under the rule of law, and I actually oppose capital punishment. I'm just not anti-war, when it is just. Deaths, even of civilians, that are the unintended consequence of destroying terrorist cells or state leaders are acceptable, as long as the strategy is morally proportionate. (Nuking all of Iraq would not be morally proportionate.)

My thing is this: the U.S. may have made some mistakes in its Middle Eastern involvements, and I am well-prepared to concede that it sometimes may have. But nevertheless, we are justified in making it clear to enemies that whatever their grievances, they may not be resolved by smashing airplanes into our centers of commerce and killing people, by taking us hostage when we travel, or anything else equally as unacceptable. I want my govt to walk softly, but whether it does or not, I also want any who would harm me to know my govt has a big stick that will *hit hard* if I am endangered.

In the meantime, I will listen to arguments that the U.S. has behaved unjustly, and when convinced of the claim, I will lobby for it.

--Mona--

[Evan]

For those of you who think that Pat Tillman was crazy for joining the Army, get a clue. This man died protecting our freedoms, while he could have been playing a game and making millions. He is the definition of a hero. Rest in peace, Pat.

[Mona]

I belong to a smallish email list established by some friends for the purpose of political discussion among non-theistic people holding diverse political views. Yesterday I linked to this thread to show why I am increasingly likely to eschew the label "libertarian," for all the reasons others have set forth here. I also pointed out that several weeks ago there was an H&R post eulogizing a man who had been a WWII isolationist and who had come to Holocaust denial; my research indicates that libertarian isolationsit are over-represented in the denier "movement."

Seems it may be time to revert to identifying as a "classical liberal." Certainly I do not wish to be associated with deniers or with people who dismiss Pat Tillman as a "fool" for dying in a country that aided and abetted the theocrats who flew airplanes into our buildings.

Foreign policy is going to, and is, causing a schism in libertarianism, and I know on which side I wish to end up; it is not with those who would have let Hitler take over Europe and who facilitate denial of atrocities.

--Mona--

[JDM]

joe,

Your response can only indicate that you are not only dense, but deliberatly dishonest and obtuse. There is no point in repeating myself.

[Robles]

It's The Soldier

It's the soldier, not the reporter who has given freedom of the PRESS.

It's the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of SPEECH,

It's the soldier, not the campus organizer, Who has given us the freedom to DEMONSTRATE.

It's the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a FAIR TRAIL.

It's the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves under the flag and whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who gives the protestor the right to burn the flag.

If you are able to read this thank a teacher.
If you are able to read this in ENGLISH thank a VET regardless of rank for some gave all so that we may live free.

[anony mous]

IMO,some of you need the lving snot beaten out of you. Especially the asshole who made the first post.

[joe]

"There is no point in repeating myself."

Hold on there, JDM. There might still be some people who aren't convinced you're a thoughtless ass. Why don't you help them out with a little cut and paste?

[JDM]

OK. Here's one. Pat Tillman on why he joined the Rangers:

"My great grandfather was at Pearl Harbor and a lot of my family has gone and fought in wars and I really haven't done a damn thing as far as laying myself on the line like that.... And so I have a great deal of respect for those that have and what the flag stands for."

The thoughtless ass forgot to name which lawyers specifically bore forward the culture of freeedom and courageous sacrifice which inspired him.

Maybe I'm being unfair, perhaps his great grandfather was a student organizer.

[Gina]

AJ,
I may only be 20, but I'm going to school to be a Special Educator. So for you to even say that stupid analogy hurts. I'm going to be helping hundreds of students who are less fortunate than us. And for Pat Tillman, he is a hero in my book any day. He did give up a lot of money, but money isn't everything, trust me, studying to be a teacher, I know this for a fact. He is a true American Hero, so for all of you who say he isn't need a serious reality check!

[Gina]

AJ,
I may only be 20, but I'm going to school to be a Special Educator. So for you to even say that stupid analogy hurts. I'm going to be helping hundreds of students who are less fortunate than us. And for Pat Tillman, he is a hero in my book any day. He did give up a lot of money, but money isn't everything, trust me, studying to be a teacher, I know this for a fact. He is a true American Hero, so for all of you who say he isn't need a serious reality check!

[MALAK]

Greater love hath no man, than that he should lay down his life in defense of his neighbor. Not an exact quote perhaps, but it will suffice. Pat Tillman stood to make millions in the NFL. He followed a nobler path. Nobler still, he sought no fame or notoriety for his decision. He declined the automatic offer of a commission when he volunteered, preferring to be 'one of the guys.' Since his death, his family refused to participate in the promotion of his "story". This was a man of noble character, taken far too soon. Damn

[tdy]

Tell me Mona,

was the murder of 3000 Taliban POW's who surrendered to the norther alliance after the fall of the regieme, While US soldiers stood by and did nothing... was that morally proportianate ???
you people make me sick with your hypocritical patriotic diatribes.
one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
Any soldier, of any uniform deserves to be honoured,

even the ones murdered by the USA

[John M. Joy]

JMJ spews: "When it happens, you can thank interventionists and interventionism, as was the case three Septembers back."

I see. OBL and the fanatical religionists he leads flew airplanes into our buildings because the U.S. has intervened in some Middle Eastern affairs, and/or because of the Palestinian issue.

["spews" ??? (sigh.) Then again, I should know better - "arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics" and all that - but... This is probably going to have to be my last for awhile; it's only Monday morning, and already looks like a busy week.]

Mona:

See: http://www.ciaonet.org/cbr/cbr00/video/cbr_ctd/cbr_ctd_28.html

What interventionists seem to have trouble comprehending is that "al Qaeda" != "Osama bin Laden" != "Taliban" != (strictly speaking) "Afghanistan" - yet all are a part of a very annoyed Islamic world. Swatting flies with sledgehammers seldom works - they're too unwieldy - and even when it does, it causes a helluva mess (think: the broom in Sorcerer's Apprentice).

JMJ
(Aha! The C NEQ operator '!=' is more straightforward to render here than <> - such are the things that amuse the mind operating on little sleep)

[Mona]

tdy writes: :Tell me Mona,

was the murder of 3000 Taliban POW's who surrendered to the norther alliance after the fall of the regieme, While US soldiers stood by and did nothing... was that morally proportianate ???
you people make me sick with your hypocritical patriotic diatribes.
one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
Any soldier, of any uniform deserves to be honoured,

even the ones murdered by the USA"

Your comments are simply unreasonable. First, I said that captured terorists need to be prosecuted under the rule of law, and that I oppose capital punishment. I do not know anything about the purported murder of 3,000 Taliban members you refer too. I've made my position clear as to my morality where *captured* terrorists are concerned, and summary execution is nowhere on my list of acceptable protocols.

Second, your "immoral equivalency" argument is outside the realm of reasoned discussion. Equating deluded theocrats who have convinced themselves Westerners are Satan for not shrouding its women in burkas, for allowing rock 'n roll and sitcoms, and for various other crimes of decadence, and who plot to blow up our buildings, crash airplanes into them, kidnap us, and otherwise murder us for the greater glory of Allah, equating them with U.S. soldiers fighting these religious fanatics AFTER so many such attacks, is insane. Period.

Glib dismissals collapsing all factual and moral distinctions leave us in chaos: After all, one man's thief is another man's redistributor of wealth, right?

--Mona--

[sam]

I just got back from Iraq and it wasn't that bad, but I didnt die either.....a wise man once told me....the only way for terrorists to succeed is for a good man to do nothing..........after hearing this you can;t help to appreciate what I and all the other soldiers, including Pat Tillman, volunteered for and sacraficed for our country...If people like us don't protect our country who will. Im not a career man, I've already got out....but i feel I did my part to contribute to my country, what have you done?

[sam]

I just got back from Iraq and it wasn't that bad, but I didnt die either.....a wise man once told me....the only way for terrorists to succeed is for a good man to do nothing..........after hearing this you can;t help to appreciate what I and all the other soldiers, including Pat Tillman, volunteered for and sacraficed for our country...If people like us don't protect our country who will. Im not a career man, I've already got out....but i feel I did my part to contribute to my country, what have you done? It doesn't matter if you think Iraq and afghanistan are right or wrong, you need to support our soldiers, because they have no control on whats going on.....Just remember that when you are voting in November.....Botoom line...Although I don't think Pat Tillman is any different than any other soldier that died....he still is a great man, that died doing what he thought was right...and as long as he feels that he did right within himself who really cares what we think

[sam]

I just got back from Iraq and it wasn't that bad, but I didnt die either.....a wise man once told me....the only way for terrorists to succeed is for a good man to do nothing..........after hearing this you can;t help to appreciate what I and all the other soldiers, including Pat Tillman, volunteered for and sacraficed for our country...If people like us don't protect our country who will. Im not a career man, I've already got out....but i feel I did my part to contribute to my country, what have you done? It doesn't matter if you think Iraq and afghanistan are right or wrong, you need to support our soldiers, because they have no control on whats going on.....Just remember that when you are voting in November.....Botoom line...Although I don't think Pat Tillman is any different than any other soldier that died....he still is a great man, that died doing what he thought was right...and as long as he feels that he did right within himself who really cares what we think

[sam]

I just got back from Iraq and it wasn't that bad, but I didnt die either.....a wise man once told me....the only way for terrorists to succeed is for a good man to do nothing..........after hearing this you can;t help to appreciate what I and all the other soldiers, including Pat Tillman, volunteered for and sacraficed for our country...If people like us don't protect our country who will. Im not a career man, I've already got out....but i feel I did my part to contribute to my country, what have you done? It doesn't matter if you think Iraq and afghanistan are right or wrong, you need to support our soldiers, because they have no control on whats going on.....Just remember that when you are voting in November.....Botoom line...Although I don't think Pat Tillman is any different than any other soldier that died....he still is a great man, that died doing what he thought was right...and as long as he feels that he did right within himself who really cares what we think

[sam]

I just got back from Iraq and it wasn't that bad, but I didnt die either.....a wise man once told me....the only way for terrorists to succeed is for a good man to do nothing..........after hearing this you can;t help to appreciate what I and all the other soldiers, including Pat Tillman, volunteered for and sacraficed for our country...If people like us don't protect our country who will. Im not a career man, I've already got out....but i feel I did my part to contribute to my country, what have you done? It doesn't matter if you think Iraq and afghanistan are right or wrong, you need to support our soldiers, because they have no control on whats going on.....Just remember that when you are voting in November.....Botoom line...Although I don't think Pat Tillman is any different than any other soldier that died....he still is a great man, that died doing what he thought was right...and as long as he feels that he did right within himself who really cares what we think

[sam]

I just got back from Iraq and it wasn't that bad, but I didnt die either.....a wise man once told me....the only way for terrorists to succeed is for a good man to do nothing..........after hearing this you can;t help to appreciate what I and all the other soldiers, including Pat Tillman, volunteered for and sacraficed for our country...If people like us don't protect our country who will. Im not a career man, I've already got out....but i feel I did my part to contribute to my country, what have you done? It doesn't matter if you think Iraq and afghanistan are right or wrong, you need to support our soldiers, because they have no control on whats going on.....Just remember that when you are voting in November.....Botoom line...Although I don't think Pat Tillman is any different than any other soldier that died....he still is a great man, that died doing what he thought was right...and as long as he feels that he did right within himself who really cares what we think

[sam]

I just got back from Iraq and it wasn't that bad, but I didnt die either.....a wise man once told me....the only way for terrorists to succeed is for a good man to do nothing..........after hearing this you can;t help to appreciate what I and all the other soldiers, including Pat Tillman, volunteered for and sacraficed for our country...If people like us don't protect our country who will. Im not a career man, I've already got out....but i feel I did my part to contribute to my country, what have you done? It doesn't matter if you think Iraq and afghanistan are right or wrong, you need to support our soldiers, because they have no control on whats going on.....Just remember that when you are voting in November.....Botoom line...Although I don't think Pat Tillman is any different than any other soldier that died....he still is a great man, that died doing what he thought was right...and as long as he feels that he did right within himself who really cares what we think

[Gi Jane]

AJ, SR, where you did you two go? Did you cower away after realizing that iggnorance, narrcisisim and egomanicism was not only unappreciated but founded to be arrogant and hurtful to those who are mourning Pat Tillman but also many others who have died? Believe in the cause of not, soldiers do what they are told, they dont decide to go to war. Place your anger on the government, not on us.

I am in the Army, I have lost 4 friends in Iraq, I possibly will be going to Iraq soon, I will do as I am told b/c I beleive in something bigger then myself. I am also a woman. Dont you feel little, small and kind of silly knowing that a woman and many other women are much more stronger, mentally and phsyically, and less fearful then to two of you? I am a non-combatant, a medic as well as a linguist and hope to never have to kill anyone but I understand that if I die and that my friends have died that it wouldnt be in vain however it would be protecting someone, something else that is bigger and more important then us. Appreciate your right to freedome of speech and remember who you got that right from. Take a US History course and think before you speak. Good luck girly men! 🙂

[GI Jane]

AJ, SR, where you did you two go? Did you cower away after realizing that iggnorance, narrcisisim and egomanicism was not only unappreciated but founded to be arrogant and hurtful to those who are mourning Pat Tillman but also many others who have died? Believe in the cause of not, soldiers do what they are told, they dont decide to go to war. Place your anger on the government, not on us.

I am in the Army, I have lost 4 friends in Iraq, I possibly will be going to Iraq soon, I will do as I am told b/c I beleive in something bigger then myself. I am also a woman. Dont you feel little, small and kind of silly knowing that a woman and many other women are much more stronger, mentally and phsyically, and less fearful then to two of you? I am a non-combatant, a medic as well as a linguist and hope to never have to kill anyone but I understand that if I die and that my friends have died that it wouldnt be in vain however it would be protecting someone, something else that is bigger and more important then us. Appreciate your right to freedome of speech and remember who you got that right from. Take a US History course and think before you speak. Good luck girly men! 🙂

[Max]

Joe,

Your analogy is false on several counts. It is a good example of the widespread self-deception going on when most Americans think about what our armed forces are doing in the Middle East and West Asia.

The Allied landings in North Africa were a necessary step towards defeating Hitlerian Germany, as once you control North Africa it is a stepping stone to Italy, which was a German ally. To win wars, break up the opposing alliance. Simple. Also, since the theater was on the German periphery, it was easy for maritime powers Britan and U.S. to concentrate forces for an easy win against Vichy forces. In short, the N. African invasion in 1942 made sense.

Please tell me what sense it makes to have expensively-equipped, supplied, and trained U.S. soldiers driving about the Afghan countryside.

I repeat: the average Pathan/Pushtun/Pashto tribesman probably is basically sympathetic for Bin Laden, but if armed foreign infidels come to his country he'll attack them not because of some vague belief Bin Laden is a hero, but because the tribesman is poor, they're rich, he knows the terrain, and they don't speak the language.

As to Rangers, they are a special infantry striking force, and their history in the American military is older than the U.S. itself. In Afghanistan the Rangers' primary mission is raiding and patrolling.

What possible sense do you see in sending a great guy like Tillman into a situation like that, to raid and patrol? What was he going to do, impress the Pathan tribesmen into being peaceful and having a 9-5 job and buying things in shopping centers? Kill some Bin Laden supporters and intimidate the rest into accepting Christianity?

Alexander the Great couldn't supress the Afghan tribesmen. Neither could Genghiz Khan, the British empire, or the Red Army. What makes you think the U.S. military will do better?

Guys like Tillman are going to keep on dying, until enough voters in our country figure out this is an impossible mission.

[Max]

GI Jane,

I think you are wrong when you say soldiers don't have a choice. Nuerenburg proved otherwise. You, for instance, have the choice of - worst case - going to Leavenworth or going to Iraq.

I a very sorry my government is sending you to Iraq because I believe it is wasting citizens' lives and wealth in an illegal war.

That is just my opinion, of course, I am not calling you a war criminal. I know you volunteered for the duty. I just wish a fine young American such as you would be sacrificing for a better goal, than helping the U.S. government keep a military and economic presence in Iraq.

I hope your work as a linguist allows you to talk with "real" Iraqis. (As opposed to the ones collaborating with the U.S. government.) The Arab culture is very different from ours, but I hope you find most Iraqis are people like you. It would be a shame if your deployment teaches you to dehumanize Iraqis into an faceless enemy.

Remember, the military will give you a flak vest and kevlar helmet. The Iraqis don't get that protection.

Good luck on your deployment. Keep your head down, don't be a hero, and come home. Our country needs more people like you.

[veron]

you foolish americans.......you still think you can safe the world from all the bad guys by your expansions into countries you have no business to be in??????? why Sep.11 happened??? exactly because of that....you are sticking your nose into international affairs and want to dominate the world......and unfortunately most of the world hates you and laughs at you....why such a handsome young man had to die? why? i don't think he knew the reason he and his mates were sent there.....I will never got that phony american patriotism.....it's sad.....there is som much more about usa today that the war.....sort out your internal problems first ( ghettos, kids shooting each other at high schools, etc...stuff which is not happing anywhere else in the world)..
Good luck in elections, hope this time you make better choice and you get a president who can at least speak english........one more thing, every american should have a duty to live outside of usa ( preferably civiliazed Europe) at least for awhile.....to see your country from perspective.....god bless you all....

[Laura]

I don't know much about him but I do think maybe it was the right disision for him because money and fame is not all it's craked up to be he died for me, he died for you, he died for all of us here in the USA. God bless him and his family!!! He is a famous legend here in Arizona and now he is surly a world wide HERO!!!!

[Laura]

I don't know much about him but I do think maybe it was the right disision for him because money and fame is not all it's craked up to be he died for me, he died for you, he died for all of us here in the USA. God bless him and his family!!! He is a famous legend here in Arizona and now he is surly a world wide HERO!!!!

[kris]

laura,

you are right about Pat T

[veron]

you foolish americans.......you still think you can safe the world from all the bad guys by your expansions into countries you have no business to be in??????? why Sep.11 happened??? exactly because of that....you are sticking your nose into international affairs and want to dominate the world......and unfortunately most of the world hates you and laughs at you....why such a handsome young man had to die? why? i don't think he knew the reason he and his mates were sent there.....I will never got that phony american patriotism.....it's sad.....there is som much more about usa today that the war.....sort out your internal problems first ( ghettos, kids shooting each other at high schools, etc...stuff which is not happing anywhere else in the world)..
Good luck in elections, hope this time you make better choice and you get a president who can at least speak english........one more thing, every american should have a duty to live outside of usa ( preferably civiliazed Europe) at least for awhile.....to see your country from perspective.....god bless you all....

[veron]

you foolish americans.......you still think you can safe the world from all the bad guys by your expansions into countries you have no business to be in??????? why Sep.11 happened??? exactly because of that....you are sticking your nose into international affairs and want to dominate the world......and unfortunately most of the world hates you and laughs at you....why such a handsome young man had to die? why? i don't think he knew the reason he and his mates were sent there.....I will never got that phony american patriotism.....it's sad.....there is som much more about usa today that the war.....sort out your internal problems first ( ghettos, kids shooting each other at high schools, etc...stuff which is not happing anywhere else in the world)..
Good luck in elections, hope this time you make better choice and you get a president who can at least speak english........one more thing, every american should have a duty to live outside of usa ( preferably civiliazed Europe) at least for awhile.....to see your country from perspective.....god bless you all....

[MALAK]

veron's hatred has obviously sent him/her over the edge. I just hope that the next time a natural disaster, or terrorist attack, occurs somewhere outside the U.S.A., and the bleeding hearts begin crying for help, that America does what she always has done in the past. Send in great big planes with lots of food and medicine. And I hope every package is emblazoned with the Stars and Stripes. I am NOT American, and have no desire to be. There are many flaws in my neighbour to the south, but a lack of courage, or compassion, are not among them. Goddamn I hate sounding like a cheerleader, but at least I know who my friends are. Some of you people need an enema.

[matt]

Okay, before posting could ya'll please check for basic grammer and spelling errors? I know it's tough, but do it for me. Please? Damned public schools.....

[MALAK]

Sorry teacher.

[matt]

Not you MALAK. Sorry, I guess I should have been more specific. It's just extremely annoying to read posts that look like they were written by kids in grade school.

[Angie]

Repulsive.....but, lucky.....you people have the right to say what you will. Tillman, just as all of the men and women who are part of this war effort, is and will always be nothing less than a hero. Interesting enough that any of you could have the nerve to call him a fool...it sickens me. The man never asked WHEN....he never asked WHY......he just DID, and I will say this and mean it from the bottom of my heart.....from Ranger Tillman to all of those who've given their lives so that we may have this right.....Bless you. I'll make damn sure that my son grows up knowing that there was, at least at one point, people like Pat Tillman in our world. R.I.P. Ranger Tillman, #40 on the field, #1 in our hearts.

[patrick]

Tillman is a real HERO for giving up his life as well as a job that many kids and adults would love to do just to try and make this country safe and anyone who dont think that he gaveup everything go ask his famiy. I am proud to have someone like him defending us..... thank you again Pat

[patrick]

Tillman is a real HERO for giving up his life as well as a job that many kids and adults would love to do just to try and make this country safe and anyone who dont think that he gaveup everything go ask his famiy. I am proud to have someone like him defending us..... thank you again Pat

[Laura]

Veron-
I understand where you are coming from about Americans, but I am an American, and I have a lot of pride for that. Yes, it is true that a lot of Americans think that they are better than any other country, and I do agree that we should NOT be over in Iraq right now, and I also agree that our president isn't nearly the greatest...in fact I don't like him much at all. But whether your American, French, Dutch, German, or whatever(can't think of any more at the moment) we are all humans, and we don't always make the wisest choices... but my point is that Pat Tillman went over to defend our country, and he gave up a lot of money, and that shows that Americans DO have pride. Like i said before, I am American and I have pride, but I also understand where you are coming from. God bless Pat Tillman, and his family and friends.

[bill krueger]

how you people can say playing a sport is more important than standing up for your beliefs is beyond me. Pat tillman was a man of honor and a man of backbone character who saw a need and gave his all to help fulfill it. if you whimps had half his character and heart you might be almost good enough to join the military and back your country. my heart and prayers go out to the Tillman family at this time. May God embrace Pat in his arms and give him peace and serenity.

[Emily]

I do believe that Pat Tillman was, and still is today a true hero. He defended our country...he was a brave soul, and a true hero. I just wanted to put my appriciation for him and his family. Goodbye now.

[Laura]

Emily...
YOUR A DORK!
Love Laura

[Kevin Sklarski]

Wow!! I was just searching to see what has been written about Pat Tillman and I come across a bunch of tree huggin idiots. To not trully appeciate what this young man sacrificied and be gratefull is just pure ignorance! I have never been so disgusted by reading some of your posts! To those who have written negatively about Pat Tillman I hope if a terrorist strikes again your children are there to witness it!!

[Kevin Sklarski]

Wow!! I was just searching to see what has been written about Pat Tillman and I come across a bunch of tree huggin idiots. To not trully appeciate what this young man sacrificied and be gratefull is just pure ignorance! I have never been so disgusted by reading some of your posts! To those who have written negatively about Pat Tillman I hope if a terrorist strikes again your children are there to witness it!!

[Dave]

Max (and likeminded "not a hero" folks):

The great thing about America is that you can express a view that is clearly against what most people think, and you will not get thrown in jail for it. Unlike, say, in regimes such as the Taliban. Sure, you may catch some flak over it. But this is a free country. Free because of people who have fought for it (and paid heavy prices for it). And yes of course, free because of administrators too. There are many integral parts.

You're point is, "how is he a hero by fighting somewhere where it doesn't even make sense that we should be there in the first place?"

Hey - valid point. Maybe Afghanistan isn't where Al Qaeda is anymore. If you know where they are, could you please send a note to the Pentagon?

But I think you're missing the point bro. I'm a staunch democrat, and I'm probably aligned with you when it comes to our whole take on the war on terror. By strongarming people, and invading countries, we are not necessariliy "beating terrorism" - we're probably breeding terrorists come to think of it.

But regardless, while we bicker back and forth about politics and world affairs and such, the armed forces are out there doing what they are told. Front line soldiers don't pick and choose what countries to invade. Pat Tillman was doing a service for his country so that you and I could continue to exchange our views. If there were no people like Pat Tillman hunting down Al Qaeda, would we even have a forum to exchange our views?

Pat Tillman answered a calling. We all have different callings. The taliban and Al Qaeda have their callings. It sounds like your calling may be to help guide this country in it's world affairs so that we don't HAVE to be fighting terrorists in the first place. Very noble. Maybe part of your calling is to decide what our troops do. You are clearly very educated. Don't put that to waste by just bickering with people over the internet. Go run for office, or start smaller even.

Meanwhile, Pat Tillman and his friends/brother are out fighting 20 hours a day so that you can do such things and so that Al Qaeda is weakened to the point another 9/11 doesn't happen.

[Dave]

Max (and likeminded "not a hero" folks):

The great thing about America is that you can express a view that is clearly against what most people think, and you will not get thrown in jail for it. Unlike, say, in regimes such as the Taliban. Sure, you may catch some flak over it. But this is a free country. Free because of people who have fought for it (and paid heavy prices for it). And yes of course, free because of administrators too. There are many integral parts.

You're point is, "how is he a hero by fighting somewhere where it doesn't even make sense that we should be there in the first place?"

Hey - valid point. Maybe Afghanistan isn't where Al Qaeda is anymore. If you know where they are, could you please send a note to the Pentagon?

But I think you're missing the point bro. I'm a staunch democrat, and I'm probably aligned with you when it comes to our whole take on the war on terror. By strongarming people, and invading countries, we are not necessariliy "beating terrorism" - we're probably breeding terrorists come to think of it.

But regardless, while we bicker back and forth about politics and world affairs and such, the armed forces are out there doing what they are told. Front line soldiers don't pick and choose what countries to invade. Pat Tillman was doing a service for his country so that you and I could continue to exchange our views. If there were no people like Pat Tillman hunting down Al Qaeda, would we even have a forum to exchange our views?

Pat Tillman answered a calling. We all have different callings. The taliban and Al Qaeda have their callings. It sounds like your calling may be to help guide this country in it's world affairs so that we don't HAVE to be fighting terrorists in the first place. Very noble. Maybe part of your calling is to decide what our troops do. You are clearly very educated. Don't put that to waste by just bickering with people over the internet. Go run for office, or start smaller even.

Meanwhile, Pat Tillman and his friends/brother are out fighting 20 hours a day so that you can do such things and so that Al Qaeda is weakened to the point another 9/11 doesn't happen.

[max]

To all of you who like to chant "Tillman is a hero" I guess I must repeat my question:

How in Heaven's name was Tillman "defending America" by running around with the U.S. Rangers in Afghanistan's mountains?

The guy got shot dead in a firefight with some mountain tribesmen. How are we safer?

There are about 15,500 U.S. troops in Afghanistan. They spend their time either hiding in a heavily-fortified base, or moving around the countryside on "missions". They spend a lot of time kicking the doors of houses in villages where U.S. Intelligence thinks there might be terrorists, whatever that means.

That countryside is inhabited by men, women, and children who don't like having U.S. soldiers like Tillman kicking in their doors. (I am not saying Tillman did this. But given his Army job the odds are pretty good.)

Fighting foreigners has been a national tradition in the Afghan mountains for at least three millenia. U.S. forces can't do jack there except make the population mad. Tillman almost certainly, by doing his job, helped make Afghan tribesmen mad.

Tillman volunteered. I respect him for being patriotic and wanting to help his country. But what he was doing in Afghanistan wasn't positive. His death in Afghanistan wasn't heroic. Foreigners have died fighting in Afghanistan's mountains for centuries. Now he is just another statistic proving it will go on for a long time.

Tillman may have wanted to help his country, but frankly, the U.S. Rangers are harming U.S. safety by running around Afghanistan and making tribesmen angry.

Tillman's death was a waste, pure and simple. He deceived himself, and if you think what he was doing was noble, you are deceiving yourself too.

[Shawn]

Pat Tillman is a true hero. He pushed aside a wife and $3.5 million to go fight for this beautiful country in our war against terrorism. Remember, WE WERE ATTACKED. It seems like as each day goes by the liberals seem to forget more and more about that horrible day when more than 3,000 of our friends, relatives and fellow American citizens were brutally killed.

[zack]

nice post dave

[JOHN]

LET'S GET TO SOME REALITY HERE!

Pat Tillman is dead, along with 100s of thousands of others who have died over years of supporting false governments over centuries of time. Tillman became our "current hero" because of our stupidity and ignorance. LOOK IN YOUR WALLET...you'll find "money" that is represented by paper debt...we call it Federal Reserve Notes. The National Debt is over 45 Trillion Dollars....which is equal to over $25,000 for every citizen of the USA...you ready to pay your share? WISE UP! You have been had by the International Bankers! Keep kidding yourself. Keep paying taxes and sending children to fight our Wars...and adding to their wealth.
They'll be happy to sell you gas, a car, a house, or whatever you can afford as long as it's at a profit or more debt to them. What is fighting terrorism costing YOU?

At least Pat Tillman isn't paying them anymore!

[JOHN]

LET'S GET TO SOME REALITY HERE!

Pat Tillman is dead, along with 100s of thousands of others who have died over years of supporting false governments over centuries of time. Tillman became our "current hero" because of our stupidity and ignorance. LOOK IN YOUR WALLET...you'll find "money" that is represented by paper debt...we call it Federal Reserve Notes. The National Debt is over 45 Trillion Dollars....which is equal to over $25,000 for every citizen of the USA...you ready to pay your share? WISE UP! You have been had by the International Bankers! Keep kidding yourself. Keep paying taxes and sending children to fight our Wars...and adding to their wealth.
They'll be happy to sell you gas, a car, a house, or whatever you can afford as long as it's at a profit or more debt to them. What is fighting terrorism costing YOU?

At least Pat Tillman isn't paying them anymore!

[JOHN]

LET'S GET TO SOME REALITY HERE!

Pat Tillman is dead, along with 100s of thousands of others who have died over years of supporting false governments over centuries of time. Tillman became our "current hero" because of our stupidity and ignorance. LOOK IN YOUR WALLET...you'll find "money" that is represented by paper debt...we call it Federal Reserve Notes. The National Debt is over 45 Trillion Dollars....which is equal to over $25,000 for every citizen of the USA...you ready to pay your share? WISE UP! You have been had by the International Bankers! Keep kidding yourself. Keep paying taxes and sending children to fight our Wars...and adding to their wealth.
They'll be happy to sell you gas, a car, a house, or whatever you can afford as long as it's at a profit or more debt to them. What is fighting terrorism costing YOU?

At least Pat Tillman isn't paying them anymore!

[JOHN]

LET'S GET TO SOME REALITY HERE!

Pat Tillman is dead, along with 100s of thousands of others who have died over years of supporting false governments over centuries of time. Tillman became our "current hero" because of our stupidity and ignorance. LOOK IN YOUR WALLET...you'll find "money" that is represented by paper debt...we call it Federal Reserve Notes. The National Debt is over 45 Trillion Dollars....which is equal to over $25,000 for every citizen of the USA...you ready to pay your share? WISE UP! You have been had by the International Bankers! Keep kidding yourself. Keep paying taxes and sending children to fight our Wars...and adding to their wealth.
They'll be happy to sell you gas, a car, a house, or whatever you can afford as long as it's at a profit or more debt to them. What is fighting terrorism costing YOU?

At least Pat Tillman isn't paying them anymore!

[JOHN]

LET'S GET TO SOME REALITY HERE!

Pat Tillman is dead, along with 100s of thousands of others who have died over years of supporting false governments over centuries of time. Tillman became our "current hero" because of our stupidity and ignorance. LOOK IN YOUR WALLET...you'll find "money" that is represented by paper debt...we call it Federal Reserve Notes. The National Debt is over 45 Trillion Dollars....which is equal to over $25,000 for every citizen of the USA...you ready to pay your share? WISE UP! You have been had by the International Bankers! Keep kidding yourself. Keep paying taxes and sending children to fight our Wars...and adding to their wealth.
They'll be happy to sell you gas, a car, a house, or whatever you can afford as long as it's at a profit or more debt to them. What is fighting terrorism costing YOU?

At least Pat Tillman isn't paying them anymore!

[JOHN]

YE GADS!

PEOPLE WHO POST AND READ HERE ARE CRAZY! PAT TILLMAN IS DEAD! NEITHER HE OR ANYONE WHO HAS DIED IS A HERO! THEY ARE ALL PAWNS OF THE INTERNATIONAL BANKERS AND CENTRAL BANKS (FEDERAL RESERVE BANKS) OF THE WESTERN NATIONS. WE ARE ALL PAWNS, BUT MANY OF YOU "LIKE THAT".

[JOHN]

YE GADS!

PEOPLE WHO POST AND READ HERE ARE CRAZY! PAT TILLMAN IS DEAD! NEITHER HE OR ANYONE WHO HAS DIED IS A HERO! THEY ARE ALL PAWNS OF THE INTERNATIONAL BANKERS AND CENTRAL BANKS (FEDERAL RESERVE BANKS) OF THE WESTERN NATIONS. WE ARE ALL PAWNS, BUT MANY OF YOU "LIKE THAT".

[JOHN]

YE GADS!

PEOPLE WHO POST AND READ HERE ARE CRAZY! PAT TILLMAN IS DEAD! NEITHER HE OR ANYONE WHO HAS DIED IS A HERO! THEY ARE ALL PAWNS OF THE INTERNATIONAL BANKERS AND CENTRAL BANKS (FEDERAL RESERVE BANKS) OF THE WESTERN NATIONS. WE ARE ALL PAWNS, BUT MANY OF YOU "LIKE THAT".

[max]

Dave,

Thanks for the rational response.

I guess the issue here is a person's definition of the word "hero." Many if not most Americans seem to be willing to see that along the lines of "A person who sacrifices for his country, period, no matter towards what end and for what goal. Just the fact that he sacrifices makes him a hero."

That sounds good superficially, but I don't buy it. The reason is that that very definition fits the terrorists who crashed into the WTC, Nazi Germany's storm troopers, and pretty much any other evil group that demanded sacrifices of its members.

I am of course not saying Tillman is anything like the 9/11 terrorists, or that his motivations were anything less than patriotic. But what I am saying is a hero is a hero because he does something constructive with his sacrifice.

Yes Tillman was a soldier and his job was to follow orders. (I really wonder whether he thought he was helping his country right before he died, or whether he had become cynical like most wartime soldiers. We'll never know, of course.)

What we do know is that, so far, no one reading my posts here has been willing even to try to explain what good Tillman's sacrifice brought. Sure it's important for our country to have good soldiers, but isn't it more important to have good fathers and live role models?

People saying "Tillman was a hero, rah rah rah, I don't want to hear anything else" are necessarily saying they don't think he could have done anything better for our country than die in a foreign war. I disagree. He was a great guy, bright, intelligent, motivated - he could have become a senator, a doctor, a teacher, anything.

Instead he is dead because some Afghan tribesman shot him. That's not heroic sacrifice, that's a waste.

FYI, and you don't have to believe me, but I was in my day a volunteer member of the Army. At present I am working outside the country as a reporter. Maybe I'm doing something to help, maybe not, mostly I just try to support my family.

But in any case it's not suprising my opinions differ from the main stream - I'm outside of it. But for me it's scary to read all these fanatic, thoughtless posts from people who not only obviously have little idea what U.S. armed force is doing outside the country, but to all evidence could care less. And they finance the whole thing with their taxes.

[Giovanna]

I work very hard at that damn public school everyday! Not everyone can afford the private education route.
Tillman will be THE "hero" I tell my students about each year from now on. What a great idea...give up persanl wealth, fame, and fans all for the sake of our country...what a concept.
God Bless Pat Tillman.

[bear]

1

[Charles Arata]

To all,
I really hope people are reading this post still. To start off, my comments are not about Pat Tillman specificly, but they are about the military man and women in general. When we have people like AJ, SR and some other "folks" put down and call a soldier a fool for belonging and contributing to something greater than himself, it pisses me off- more than words can express. To the foreign guy commenting on America- i have lived in Europe for about 3 years now, and i see that they really are two diffrent worlds- some good, some bad- i have been to the scum of europe and the best of europe, and i can really say that problems we have in america are the same they have in europe- the only thing that is diffrent... we have pride. A lot of europe wouldnt care if they were taken over or their govt. overthrown. They just dont care about that, they really dont care if their neighbors were taken over, or even if there was a genocide happening in their backyard- they dont give a shit, totally self serving and pathetic. If you dont like America thats fine, but dont call me or my brothers in arms when you have a suit case nuke blow up in your country. Beleive it or not the military has something called MOOTW, Military Operations Other than War. And i would gladly go pick up the slack of the european nations to save lifes in your backyard, this happens beacause you are a weak and apothetic son of a bitch. To the Americans in this chat room who put down their beloved country, please- move the fuck out. You are taking my oxygen up. And if you think that we are in this war for politcally self serving reasons than i encourage you to come over here for one week- I will buy you a plane ticket. And if you have Q&A about it, here is my E-mail address in Iraq [e-mail]
You will never understand why we fight these wars, you will never appreciate what the out come difference is- why you ask- because you never appreciated freedom in the first place. Its hard for you to understand i know, but try real hard to pull yourself away from Fox news for a second. I cant really think of anything that will change your ways, other than coming out here and seeing it for yourself- so i will give you something redneck in a way- Be glad i am in Iraq right now, because if i ever saw you in a bar, in your house in your office i would beat the living shit out of you, your a filthy son of a bitch and i hope you die in a Iranian prison, or by the hands of and oppressive govt. If anyone of you gave half of what the average military man or women gave to his job, and put that foward into bettering something civic or society like- we wouldnt have a problem, so pull your nose out of the latest and greatest gossip and conspiracy mag- and at least donate sometime to something in america. If you dont like what i said, tough. Unfortunatly i am in the profesion of allowing you to scream at the top of your lungs that you hate me, but remeber the guy in uniform next to me is allowing me the right to do the same... so in closing "Go fuck yourself"
A1C Arata

[dave]

anyway you look at it, we are too pussy to fight and he was not! we are the sheep he was a sheapard. I know you all think you are smart and enjoy this forum but YOU and I are still the sheep. Thanks Pat

[dave]

Hey john,
By bankers you must mean Jews right.... Thats what I thought. If you were to meet Pat Tillman or a man like him you would just how little you really are. Enjoy your peaceful life while it lasts because when terrorist come for you they won't care if you hate jews as much as they do.

[matt]

Thanks Charles, I needed a good laugh today. Your post did the trick.

Giovanna,

I too attented government school. But, if the government had not confiscated between 1/3 and 1/2 of my parents' income on a yearly basis they could have afforded to send me to private school.

[JOHN]

TO ALL WHO LOVE "INTERNATIONAL BANKERS"

THESE FOLKS ARE NOT ALL JEWS, AND I NEVER SAID SO.
THEY COME IN ALL RELIGIONS AND COLORS. IF YOU ARE
SO IGNORANT ABOUT THEIR PURPOSES AND GOALS, THERE
IS LITTLE I CAN DO, BUT INFORM YOU, WHICH I HAVE TRIED TOO DO. YOU CAN TRY TO LEARN THE TRUTH, OR GO MERRILY DOWN THE ROAD "DREAMING OF HEROS" LIKE PAT TILLMAN. IT'S YOUR CHOICE!

[Mark]

Some people still cannot accept the fact that America is at war with terrorists. Anywhere these murdering extremists inhabit the earth, we must chase them down and destroy them. God bless the brave men and women who stand up to this evil sweeping the world. Those who stand in the way as "speed bumps" will go down in history as appeasers of terror. Pat Tillman and all the other soldiers are true American Heroes, and some people out there just can't stomach the truth

[Q]

Having been there done that we have no business in Iraq! It is a religious war that has been going on for hundred of years and will be the same for a hundred more (we got Hussenin get out). Remember Israel? Pat Tillman made an honorable choice as we did in Nam, and he is not a hero but he is a patriot who died doing what he felt was right. To bad there aren't more people that will step up to the plate, but will stay home and criticize him and this great country and offer nothing but lip service to pay for the abundance of freebies they get from this country. Go to Iraq, Mexico, or other 3rd world country and see how you like living there and support you family there as well. Pat Tillman deserves all this country gives him and the respect of EVERY American for giving his life. You can not do more than that.

[Q]

Having been there done that we have no business in Iraq! It is a religious war that has been going on for hundred of years and will be the same for a hundred more (we got Hussenin get out). Remember Israel? Pat Tillman made an honorable choice as we did in Nam, and he is not a hero but he is a patriot who died doing what he felt was right. To bad there aren't more people that will step up to the plate, but will stay home and criticize him and this great country and offer nothing but lip service to pay for the abundance of freebies they get from this country. Go to Iraq, Mexico, or other 3rd world country and see how you like living there and support you family there as well. Pat Tillman deserves all this country gives him and the respect of EVERY American for giving his life. You can not do more than that.

[Q]

Having been there done that we have no business in Iraq! It is a religious war that has been going on for hundred of years and will be the same for a hundred more (we got Hussenin get out). Remember Israel? Pat Tillman made an honorable choice as we did in Nam, and he is not a hero but he is a patriot who died doing what he felt was right. To bad there aren't more people that will step up to the plate, but will stay home and criticize him and this great country and offer nothing but lip service to pay for the abundance of freebies they get from this country. Go to Iraq, Mexico, or other 3rd world country and see how you like living there and support you family there as well. Pat Tillman deserves all this country gives him and the respect of EVERY American for giving his life. You can not do more than that.

[Max]

Airman Arata,

Seeing as you have the perspective of a U.S. military person in and out of Iraq, may I ask you some questions?

1. Would you feel safe in Iraq, alone, outside your base, without personal weapons, body armor, and the knowledge that if some one bothers you, overwhelming U.S. military force will come to help you? If you would not feel safe, why do you think that is?

2. Do you speak Arabic? Would you like to?

3. Do you trust Iraqis? Why?

4. Do you think they trust you? If you think they don't trust you, why do you think that is, considering the military you are part of liberated their country?

5. How is your presence in Iraq is reducing the possibility of the use of a "suitcase nuke", as you put it, by a terrorist in the U.S.?

No need to answer, those are rhetorical questions.

Keep you head down, avoid conflict, don't volunteer. Think about what you do. Don't be a hero. Come home in one piece, not as a statistic. Our country needs you alive.

[scott]

I do not know or have ever met Pat Tillman, But I can honestly say I love Pat tillman For the tremendous sacrifice he made for me( his Death and service). You stinking faggot ass liberals make me sick, The point isnt whether or not you believe In the war or our present governing body. The point is that this man felt so much compassion and patriotism for this country he did what he believed to be his part in the war. I felt the same way. But did I give up my measly little existence as a warehouse worker to go and sign up for an elit group of the army where he new he would see action, No I did Not and Neither did you. What he did cannot be put into words (his life, death, end of existence) does that mean anything to you people, thats what he gave up. All so I can sit here and type without someone telling me I cant.Pat tillmans memory Will always be in my heart and the rest of The Macdonald and Thurm familys.

[Cannon Wadsworth]

We are a free people. Most U.S. citizens under 50 dont give a thought to why we have the right to run our mouth everyday. We have never known a threat to our home. In the U.S. we are free to play football, join the Army, etc. We have the freedom to say and do just about anything we want. Truly though, we have become a lazy ungrateful group. For each Pat Tillman there are countless "fast food eating, out of shape, mouthy, self-centered" wastes representing a society that is in moral and ethical decay. Those that question Tillman's motives I ask, "What value do you offer that gives people like yourself the opportunity to express their opinion without fear?" I strongly suspect nothing. Thank you Pat Tillman and every other soldier that gave their life to preserve our freedom.

[Ron]

How could anyone talk s--t about a man so courageous. He didn't want any fame for this. Just because the media has let his story be told, does not mean he wanted recognition.

Unlike most of humans he thinks outside of self-pity and selfishness. He is the first true hero since I have been a live. I am 25 years old and teach at an Alternative School in Dallas.

The reason why he is a hero is because he sacrificed an extremely high standard of living and a wonderful family for the benefit of others. Hopefully those that live only for their own self gratification can appreciate those that may live their lives otherwise.

If more people would help others out and stop judging everyone else except themselves, this country might actually go back to the country that so many have died proudly for.

Thanks for understanding my views,

Ron

[Ron]

How could anyone talk s--t about a man so courageous. He didn't want any fame for this. Just because the media has let his story be told, does not mean he wanted recognition.

Unlike most of humans he thinks outside of self-pity and selfishness. He is the first true hero since I have been a live. I am 25 years old and teach at an Alternative School in Dallas.

The reason why he is a hero is because he sacrificed an extremely high standard of living and a wonderful family for the benefit of others. Hopefully those that live only for their own self gratification can appreciate those that may live their lives otherwise.

If more people would help others out and stop judging everyone else except themselves, this country might actually go back to the country that so many have died proudly for.

Thanks for understanding my views,

Ron

[Ron]

How could anyone talk s--t about a man so courageous. He didn't want any fame for this. Just because the media has let his story be told, does not mean he wanted recognition.

Unlike most of humans he thinks outside of self-pity and selfishness. He is the first true hero since I have been a live. I am 25 years old and teach at an Alternative School in Dallas.

The reason why he is a hero is because he sacrificed an extremely high standard of living and a wonderful family for the benefit of others. Hopefully those that live only for their own self gratification can appreciate those that may live their lives otherwise.

If more people would help others out and stop judging everyone else except themselves, this country might actually go back to the country that so many have died proudly for.

Thanks for understanding my views,

Ron

[charlie]

John,
If being a pawn is so bad, and the facts of the conspiracy are so overwhelming and "true". Then put your money were your mouth is and move East, go some place far far away were you dont have to worry about these things. I am going out on a limb here, but... really examine your life- i bet you are the poster boy for capitalism, sometimes its unescapable in these life & times, but just be thankful that you dont have to eat food of the the dirt floor. And we have people in the service that make that diffrence for you and me, and even the people in Iraq- their not spreading death and destruction. John dont be a self hating loather, there's nothing worse than someone bitching about poverty and world bank issues while there typing on their computer. If you want, post here again and i will give you a slew of very good charities you can give your money to, i would much rather you do that than bitch about giving it to the govt. Take care.
TA

[Alex Hakim]

I just wanted to share my Pat Tillman memorial page with you guys.

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~alexhaki/tillman.htm

-Alex