So You Are the Christ, the Great Jesus Christ?

Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ gets the Herod treatment at MSNBC.

Writes John Hartl, "if you flogged yourself for two hours and six minutes, the result might be about as enlightening as this film."

UPDATE: As reader HH points out in the comments, Ebert and Roeper give the flick two big thumbs up. Sez the NY Post:

Ebert said he was "deeply moved" by "The Passion of the Christ," and added: "It's a very great film."

"This is the most powerful, important and by far the most graphic interpretation of Christ's final hours ever put on film," Roeper gushed in a press release about the duo's exclusive review, which airs today.

Must say that I'm more interested in what Gene Siskel has to say about it, though.

Comments

[St. Teilhard]

Out of curiosity, does it end with the crucifixion or with the resurrection?

If it ends with the crucifixion then it's just s snuff flic, because the entire point of christianity is the resurrection.

[Gordon Shumway]

St. Teilhard,

I'm not positive, but I think it ends after crucifixion (haven't seen or heard anything to indicate otherwise; just that it depicts the last twelve hours). If so, maybe leaving the resurrection out is Mel's friendly nod to Judaism.

[dude]

Sounds like a laff riot.

People who get off on this stuff and panic at the sight of a boob have issues.

[garym]

Bach's St. John Passion and St. Matthew Passion both end with the cruficixion, so Gibson is probably following a tradition. (Although I haven't seen the movie, I suspect the Bach Passions have much better music.)

Was MMoG really made 28 years ago? God -- er, Allah, that makes me feel old!

[Someone Christ, King of the Je]

All things must pass.

[Critic]

Funnier than thou:

http://www.landoverbaptist.org

[Black Knight]

None shall pass.

[The Lonewacko Blog]

Holy Shit! What the fuck is that?

I found it burrowing in the dirt outside. Ugly POS, ain't it?

That's the freakiest thing I've ever seen. It's got eight legs. And the noise it makes.

They only look ancient, like turtles. Except, they've only recently evolved.

Are you going to kill it?

I will this one, but there's a lot of them. They breed like rabbits.

What are they called, anyway?

Memeticus Mediaicus

Ugly name, too. What do they eat?

Right now, Mel Gibson. Say, have you seen my permethrine?

[rst]

May I remind you that the Passion of Christ is the term given to the waning hours of his life? It's not the "Manger of Christ" or "Teen Christ: My Dad Can Kick Your Dad's Ass", it's the Passion of Christ. Last, allegedly highly violent hours of his life. I would expect that a movie on the topic would also be highly violent. Read your movie tickets, dumbasses. If you can't figure it out from the 'R' rating, try reading the title.

[joe]

Apparently, there is a 20 second scene tacked onto the end, in which a "zombie-looking" Jesus is shown in profile.

[Dreamer]

If only Jesus had a cell phone...

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I heard a rumor that Jesus sez "Peter, I can see your house from up here" in Aramaic. They leave it out in the sub-titles.

[HH]

No-name critics willing to bash Mel get big headlines, while Ebert and Roeper praise the film...

[Ebert]

Two thumbs in your eye!

[garym]

It's pretty sad that rst can't even imagine a treatment of Jesus's crucifixion other than unremitting violence, especially considering the many times it's been treated otherwise.

[drdrake]

Gee you don't think that maybe Mel was just filming the Stations of the Cross do ya?
http://www.usccb.org/nab/stations.htm
I don't think he is catholic.
/sarc off

[dhex]

but it's what the kids want. their parents can feel good about it, everyone enjoys it. sort of a 2 hour bloody version of "our god is an awesome god" bumper stickers which never fail to get a giggle out of me.

i can't wait to see this, still. though i'm expecting a little bit less than i was before.

[Matt]

Just an observation from an agnostic, but is it just me or is the Catholic religion fixated on the physical pain that Jesus endured? Wearing crucifixs vs simple crosses, Opus dei members physical self punishment, now this movie which by all accounts seems to be nothing but a visual torture-fest. Dunno much 'bout religion myself being blessedly raised outside any church. Any thoughts?

[HH]

It ends with the resurrection by the way.

[Dope]

Does rst mean Really Sad Troll?

[HH]

"considering the many times it's been treated otherwise."

I don't believe that rst would consider those any good.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Matt:

I endured being raised Catholic, so this is my 2 cents. The whole Catholic faith is centered on guilt. Guilt is an effective tool in keeping the masses under the boot heel. "Oh God, Jesus suffers greatly because I am such a piece of shit.. please tell me what to do, Father Bob".

Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for Jesus the man. I just think it's sick that there's a two-hour movie that basically shows the shit being kicked out of him. Why not listen to his words? The bible-thumpers may find them useful.

[joe]

Matt, Opus Dei is a tiny sect that most Catholics don't agree with or trust. Sort of like Gibson's "Tridentine Rite" cult. Not a whole lot of self-flagellation left in the RC Church.

I would guess that the bare cross has more to do with historical opposition to icons. The rich, graphic Catholic tradition of religious art was a target of the Protestants.

[Matt]

Nice Guy: Thanks for the info. Guilt is the recurring theme in all my discussions with my 'recovering cathoholic' friends. It seems to me this whole guilt/flawed theme is both a mechanism for avoiding personal responsibility and facing the nastiness of existence for much of the world. "I am flawed/innately sinful, that is why I am adulterous/drunk/drugged/pedophile, etc, but as long as I love Jesus, I am saved." Not that humans as flawed is sole property of the catholic religion. We hear it from deep woods environmentalists as well. Dunno if pasting Marx on here is punishable by scourging and crucifiction but I think the guy did say a few worthwhile things:

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.

[Blessed cheese maker]

Positively the funniest H&R thread ever.

[chilly]

The life of Jesus is just a myth anyway. It's recycled from ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamia "god" stories.
http://www.truthbeknown.com/christcon.htm

[Matt]

Joe: fair enough, wouldnt try to present Opus Dei as representitive of the RC church, in my opinion a manifestation of its most extreme tendencies. However, it does seem from here there is much fixation on the suffering of Jesus in icongraphic art, not being well-educated on the subject left me grasping for better examples.

A thought: Jesus being the son of God and knowledgable of God's love was much better to endure the pain of his torture because he knew how good it was going to be on the other side, in comparison to eternal bliss, P.Pilate got nuthin on that. That should ameloriate any residual Catholic guilt out there.

[joe]

Matt, reread your 3:16 post.

You go Catholic -> Christian -> Religion.

Also, Catholics don't believe "because I love Jesus, I am saved." That's Protestants. Catholics believe salvation comes from grace AND acts. You may love God, God may love you, but you'd better put down that altar boy.

"Not that humans as flawed is sole property of the catholic religion. We hear it from deep woods environmentalists as well." I hardly think the imperfection of humanity is a foreign concept to conservatives, liberatarians, and other anti-utopians, among which your are clearly not counted.

[Dope]

Warren makes cheese?

[Russ D]

I was going to see this movie, but I gave up movies for lent.

Maybe I'll go see it on Friday, and eat a hamburger during the show. If I'm gonna screw up lent, I may as well go all the way.

[dhex]

opus dei is much more like a conservative political agency for the laity than a devotional school...it's membership has been fairly impressive.

there's a lot of bias against flagellation in the modern religious understandings of many traditions. i prefer to think of it as an older technique for trance inducement that's just not as popular nowadays. and a lot more direct, that's for sure. but hardly weirder than not eating pork spare ribs or waiting for dead jews to show up. or trying to destroy your ego. etc.

guilt is pretty fundamental to human beings, regardless of religious or secular affiliations. one of our greatest curses, methinks.

[John]

Dammit! I wanted to post at 3:16.

[mak_nas]

i'll reserve my Last Judgement until i've seen it, but i would note that hack reviewer tried to imply that pilate was a "mass murderer" according to some safely-anonymous "historians".

anything but, according to legend. he is in fact a saint in the assyrian coptic christian church, complete with holy day.

which, i guess, doesn't mean he was a good guy or anything. just probably not a mass murderer by any contemporary standard.

[Vynnie]

Matt - Posting Marx only gets you crucified in North Korea (where they know that Marx was just a myth and Kim Jong Il is the REAL God ...)

But listen to what he's saying in your quote. In plain English it comes down to "Religion makes people feel happy. But they're not REALLY happy, so we must destroy religion. Only then can we solve any other problems."

What is happiness, besides a feeling? If you feel happy, doesn't that make you ... happy? And have religious societies and institutions not dealt with real problems over the last few milennia? That's my problem with Marx. Boil off the flowery language and what's left doesn't make sense.

It's easy to try to define religion in a couple of sentences that either support or condemn it, escpecially because most adherants of any religion will do the same thing. But it gives you a picture too simplified to be meaningful. If you want to decide the value of a religion, look at its effect on society. To what extent does it produce justice and positive social institutions versus war, poverty, and strife? You'll find both sides stemming in various proportion from almost any religion, and I think you'll find the question isn't nearly as simple as any devout theist or atheist will try to make it seem.

[DonkeyDevil]

Any truth to the rumor that one H. J. Simpson appears as "story consultant" in the new director's cut of The Passion of the Christ?

[DonkeyDevil]

Any truth to the rumor that one H. J. Simpson appears as "story consultant" in the new director's cut of The Passion of the Christ?

[Dan]

i'll reserve my Last Judgement until i've seen it, but i would note that hack reviewer tried to imply that pilate was a "mass murderer" according to some safely-anonymous "historians".

The Roman historian Tacitus, and the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus. There, now you have names.

anything but, according to legend.

Personal tip -- "when legend disagrees with written history, believe the legend" isn't a wise rule to live your life by.

he is in fact a saint in the assyrian coptic christian church, complete with holy day

Well, don't panic; he's not the first mass murderer to become a saint in a major Christian sect, and he probably won't be the last.

Pilate was a brutal, but effective, governor who ruled from 26 AD to 36 AD. He was removed by Caligula, and exiled to Gaul, after he provoked a rebellion by slaughtering thousands of Samaritans.

[Shultz]

I'm hoping that Kill Bill: Volume 2 will come out while the The Passion is still in theatres and people are still arguing about it.

It will be fun to watch some of the same people who defend the gore in The Passion as being integral to the plot denounce Kill Bill.

[Shultz]

"Also, Catholics don't believe "because I love Jesus, I am saved." That's Protestants."

Lumping Catholics and Protestants together is ignorant. Knowing that lumping Catholics and Protestants together is ignorant, and then lumping all Protestants together is pathetic.

[TWC]

Tim, yes I guess Mohammed Messenger of God was released in the mid-70's but I am pretty sure it was re-released in the late 90's to a deafening silence.

Your points are well taken but I stand by my implied assertion that Mel is being criticized harshly simply because he made a movie about Christ.

Nobody in America cared a fig that MMOG was going to offend the Jews.

[rst]

especially considering the many times it's been treated otherwise.

Yes, movies are way better when they're all the same.

[joe]

Does the last sentence of the post refer to Siskel being dead, or Jewish?

[Hydroman]

Now begins the crucifixion of Mel Gibson.
Flogg thy on self, I say unto yea!

[Baltic]

The book was better!

[Tina]

The book WAS better. Mel Gibson is a frightening man...

[SM]

The man made "Braveheart" and "The Patriot". So unless the afflatus has morphed him into Werner Herzog expect more of the same.

[Les]

Actually, he made "Braveheart" but just starred in "The Patriot." He's a fundamentalist loon, sure, but I think he's also a talented actor. Or is it that he's a talented actor, but also a fundamentalist loon?

[x]

Hartl makes the error of treating this as simply another film.

How clueless.

[TWC]

I've wracked my brain but I just can't remember anyone assigning broad motives or heaping this kind of villification upon "Mohammed, Messenger of God" when the film was released a few years ago.

And I don't appreciate Reason's blog head for this blurb either. That sort of obvious disrespect inevitably results in snorting coffee all over the monitor (thru my nose-ouch) while LOL.

Monitors ain't cheap.

[Linda]

I have looked through a lot of reviews on this already and put them up on my blog. Like I said there, he had the opportunity to make this more historically accurate and he chose to ignore the advice. Too bad for him!

[Tina]

Why shouldn't Hartle be viewing it as a normal movie (primarily goes out to x)? It is a movie! The fact that Gibson decided to do a very heavy handed and one-sided interpretation of the Passion without making Jesus, I don't know, actually HAVE character development says a lot more about views on the brutality surrounding the situation and not the situation as a whole. If don't see anything wrong with Hartle claiming "if you flogged yourself for two hours and six minutes, the result might be about as enlightening as this film" if the film doesn't accomplish anything but display violence.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

The great Caleb Deschanel as DP! My dwindling enthusiasm for this movie has just gotten another spark.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

I've wracked my brain but I just can't remember anyone assigning broad motives or heaping this kind of villification upon "Mohammed, Messenger of God" when the film was released a few years ago.

A few years ago: Try 28 years ago! That's before $100 million box office, before 24-hour news channels, and before movies received much tv advertising. It was a different world back then, and even if it weren't, Jesus means a lot more to most Americans than Mohammed.

To top it off: MMOG was quite controversial, banned in most Middle Eastern countries and subject to some violent episodes in movie houses where it played.

Then again, your second graf indicates you might just be making a funny. It's so confusing. I'm lost in a dark wood of inconstancy!

[joe]

Editorials in the Boston Globe today on the movie, by Jeff Jacoby and James Carroll. Yowza.

http://www.boston.com/globe

[Steve in CO]

What really bugs me is that I have heard several people (call ins to talk radio, co-workers, etc) say they are going to take their children to this opera of pornographic violence. Coincidentally they are same people who were shocked, shocked over Janet's mammary exposure.

Personally, I find the whole thing rather sick...

Especially the "Family" Christian stores that are selling ?Nail Pendants.?

I personally hope this film wakes up a few people to the ridiculousness, callousness, and dangerousness of religion, especially fundamentalist religion.

I still like Mel as an actor, but I do not admire his life philosophy, especially his exclusionary views (he even thinks his wife is hell-bound).

🙁

[Gordon Shumway]

I can't wait to go see this (tomorrow if it's not sold out). I tend to find different things amusing than some folks and laugh at times during movies where no one else is laughing. I figure this will go over great tomorrow. I'm taking my stun gun just in case. If I don't make it back, tell them I died for Jesus' sins.

[Steve in CO]

Good luck Gordon! Sit near an exit!

:-]

[HH]

"It will be fun to watch some of the same people who defend the gore in The Passion as being integral to the plot denounce Kill Bill."

Or, perhaps, they think The Passion is well-made and Kill Bill Vol. 2 is not. Also could have something to do with the fact that one is a 2000-year old story that has an entire major religion built around it. Other than that, the comparison is fine.

[HH]

Ebert and Roeper's full reviews FYI

[Russ D]

'Dark room, horrific imagery, group pressure keeping you from leaving, followed by a lecture on faith and doctrine. Sounds like a cult."

Or an anti-drug lecture.

[HH]

Is there a "cult" that goes along with Kill Bill or not?

Check back with me in 2000 years to see if the Kill Bill saga is standing the test of time...

[HH]

"And this is the first I've seen Gibson nominated as a better filmmaker than Tarantino."

I said no such thing, though it can't be denied that Braveheart has its fans and Pulp Fiction had its detractors... but Kill Bill, the film in question, certainly had its detractors. Some may just find the message behind this film more worthwhile (imagine that).

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"I can't wait to go see this (tomorrow if it's not sold out). I tend to find different things amusing than some folks and laugh at times during movies where no one else is laughing. I figure this will go over great tomorrow. I'm taking my stun gun just in case. If I don't make it back, tell them I died for Jesus' sins."

The most brilliant post in this thread, I think. Brings visions of "Clockwork Orange" dancing in my head. Gordon is the next Alex.

Speaking of whom, anyone heard from him?? I wonder how the experiment went.

[HH]

More to the point, Ebert gave the Texas Chainsaw Massacre remake, a film in which violence is integral to the plot, 0 stars and gave this one 4 stars. Is he now some horrible hypocrite for doing so? Or could it be that he found one to be a good film and one to be a bad film? If the original point was that Kill Bill 2 would be denounced by those who haven't seen the film, then you could discuss some hypocrisy... the same hypocrisy by those who defended Last Temptation of Christ and The Life of Brian years back against those who hadn't seen it and rushed to denounce this one before they saw it.

[Shultz]

The point of the original post, HH, was that certain Christians tend to lambaste any film that portrays violence and gore, but, when a film comes along with a message that THEY like, all those standards go out the window.

The point of the original post, HH, was that if certain Christians were able to ban any movie with violence and gore, they would, and The Passion, under those standards, could not have been made.

The point of the original post, HH, was that certain Christians don't seem to realize that the freedom to express themselves, in films like The Passion, for example, is predicated on the freedom of non-Christians to express themselves, like in Kill Bill, for example.

It's obvious to me that you don't realize that either, HH.

P.S. What does HH stand for, Heil Hitler?

[HH]

They're initials for Henry Hanks, and the multiple ad hominems (now with an ad hitlerum) are duly noted.

You didn't spell out "certain Christians" in the original post... as I noted at least two of the most widely-noted film critics, neither one named "Michael Medved," have defended the violence in the film.

[HH]

They're initials for Henry Hanks, and the multiple ad hominems (now with an ad hitlerum) are duly noted.

You didn't spell out "certain Christians" in the original post... as I noted at least two of the most widely-known film critics, neither one named "Michael Medved," have defended the violence in the film.

[joe]

OK, Shultz, what Protestant denominations subscribe to the doctrine of salvation through good acts?

[SM]

"Some may just find the message behind this film more worthwhile (imagine that)."
What message would that be ? By all accounts, not one of Jesus's teachings is even tangentialy invoked in the movie.

"Check back with me in 2000 years to see if the Kill Bill saga is standing the test of time..."

Will do that. I'm experimenting with longevity treatment, cloning and all the rest of that ungodly stuff so i'll still be around. You might have a problem though. Unless we are talking immortal soul.

[Shultz]

Joe,

The Book of Hebrews, for one, teaches us that just as Rightousness by Faith was always important prior to Christ's death, so God's law is just as important after his death as it ever was.

That is, in terms of how we were going to be saved, there was no change from God's perspective. Christ's death was always what was going to save us, even those of us who died before Jesus was born.(Isaiah prophecy) So, if doing God's will was important prior to Christ's death, why would that change?

As far as which Protestant denominations believe that, in addition to Rightousness by Faith, they should follow God's law, I suspect that this is, in essence, why Mormons, Adventists, Baptists, Methodists, and Protestants from many other denominations don't do the things they don't do.

But, don't put an Adventist or a Methodist or a Lutheren in the same boat as some of the faith healing Charasmatics you see on television. Please.

P.S. By the way, I have argued with other Protestants about this issue, but when I talk to Protestants it's directed at Catholics.

That is, there are an extraordinary number of Protestants who, very wrongly, believe that Catholics think they can rape a gaggle of whatever, rob a bank and murder a single mother, all with impunity because they think they only need to say a few hail marys to get off scott free.

[MALAK]

I want to see both KB2 and Passion. Have a feeling that Bill will be more entertaining, but Passion will be more uplifting. My bias is Roman Catholic by upbringing. Who knew we had our own wingnuts to feel ashamed of. Sort of makes me want to bond with my Muslim brothers.

[joe]

Well, lots of people don't know what the hell they're talking about. I'm not talking about individuals' misunderstandings of each others, or their own church's doctrines. I'm discussing official doctrine. Salvation by faith alone vs. salvation by faith and works was a central disagreement during the Protestant schism. Whatever the differences among Protestant sects, the doctrine of salvation by faith is, to my knowledge, held by all of them. Too lumpy for you? Tough, the historical/theological record is clear. The doctrine of salvation by faith (or by grace) is part of the definition of Protestantism.

Your readings of the Bible do not illuminate the question of what various churches' heirarchies propound today.

Finally, please note that I never claimed Protestants don't believe that good works are important. They clearly do. However, the doctrine of salvation by faith states that those good works are the result of salvation - one who is saved does good. The doctrine of salvation by works and faith states that good works are one of the causes of salvation - one who does good will be saved.

[Shultz]

Joe,

Please note that what I responded to reads, "Also, Catholics don't believe "because I love Jesus, I am saved." That's Protestants."

That isn't even Rightousness by Faith. It's an oversimplification of something that you or someone else saw on TV.

[Les]

What does it mean if you're not "saved?" Is it a Heaven or Hell thing or is there something in between? I take it that depends on your denomination.

Personally, I hope no one here believes that God actually sends people to Hell because they're not Christians.

[Mark S.]

Yesterday, in an act of self-torture that would make JC proud, I forced myself to listen to a couple of local right-wing radio squawk shows. As expected, the hosts and their callers were practically climaxing over this movie. "The most significant film ever made," said one caller. Another proclaimed that this would restore the faith of many and bring about some great American spiritual revival that would counter-act the years of "secularism and paganism that have infected this country."

Of course, when they got to Dubbya's Mister-Roger's-Neighborhood-style condemnation of gay marriage, it became too much to bear and I changed to a hard rock station.

Fortunately, they were playing Ozzy. Yesterday, in an act of self-torture that would make JC proud, I forced myself to listen to a couple of local right-wing radio squawk shows. As expected, the hosts and their callers were practically climaxing over this movie. "The most significant film ever made," said one caller. Another implied that this would restore the faith of many and bring about some great American spiritual revival that would counter-act the years of "secularism and paganism" that have infected this country.

Of course, when they got to Dubbya's Mister-Roger's-Neighborhood-style condemnation of gay marriage, it became too much to bear and I changed to an FM hard rock station.

Fortunately, they were playing Ozzy. (Nothing like the drug-slurred lyrics of "Crazy Train" to counter-act the years of mindless religious zealotry that have infected our country.)

I haven't seen the movie, and I don't really plan to. Christian agitprop films just are my thing. It may very well be a cinematic achievement, but then again, so were "Battleship Potemkin" and "Triumph Of The Will." Extreme examples, I'm sure, but the cheerleaders of statism know too well the power that cinema can have to push a political/social agenda and fundamentalism is no expectation.

[Matt]

Joe,

The doctrine of salvation by works and faith states that good works are one of the causes of salvation - one who does good will be saved.

to steal a phrase from Hitchens, tautology lurks here.

[Critic]

The reviews are in. This one is funny:

"I'm in shock. I'm physically weak. I'm emotional," said Joseph Camerieri, a 39-year-old paralegal student from Los Angeles, who was trying to hold back his tears.

It's just a MOVIE, Joseph.
Wimp.

[joe]

Baptist preacher on Good Morning America today, talking about arranging youth trips to see the film.

Dark room, horrific imagery, group pressure keeping you from leaving, followed by a lecture on faith and doctrine. Sounds like a cult.

[nobody]

Of course Christianity is a cult. A respectable cult, but a cult all the same.

[dhex]

it's funny that many of the same people who yelled for years that "real life" vulgarity, violence and sexuality were unnecessary to make good cinema have suddenly discovered that realistic portrayals of violence make for compelling cinema.

now, we all know they're flaming jackasses, but it's not very often that so many can form their lives into a living metaphor for that jackassery.

therein lies the art. i'm hitting the passion this weekend.

[dhex]

good movies should move you, and shock you out of ordinary consciousness. there's nothing wrong with people being moved by it. that so many movies don't move anyone to do anything but eat popcorn is a more embarassing reality.

this is also probably the first time a movie about christianity with good production values has been made since the apostle. (i'd say the rapture but it's gnostic, fuck you you goddamn murding psychopathic egomaniac plot is probably not considered the uplifting message they're looking for.)

that whole multibillion dollar industry of christian movies, music, books and assorted art and merchandise still seems largely stuck in the fanzine/preaching to the choir/eschaton and on and on mold, whereas the passion will probably still appeal to people who don't always feel terrible about masturbating.

[Shultz]

HH,
Nothing much in common other than violence being integral to the plot.

P.S. Dolt.

[garym]

Having read several reviews, I have no desire to see a movie which is evidently a bloodfest.

Besides, the movie can't possibly be as entertaining as the debates over it.

[Matt]

Vynnie: If you are still posting here, I put up the entire Marx quote just for that reason; to show, in my opinion, the more sympathetic assessment he had of religion, not fully represented in the more common, 'religion is the opium of the people'. I dont get "religion makes people feel happy" from "the sigh of oppressed people ... spirit of a spiritless situation" However, you are free to do so. I see it more as religion gives people something better to hope for in a shitty situation. Think of it as mental welfare, if they didnt get it, they'd be much more likely to go to work and fix their situation. I post Marx with real hesitation as I tried to signal with gallows humor, I hope no one tries to misread me and infer that I support actively removing religion from peoples lives(Joe).

juxtapose the logic of your 'religion makes people happy so everythings copacetic' comment with, oh I dunno, the inquisition, you seem to say, "They've got religion, they believe they've got heaven in their future, they must be happy, no need to change their material reality."

Lotta unhappy religious people in those days, fortunately for us they didnt just sit around and accept the circumstances, waiting for their eventual salvation. Infused with a bit of, ahem Joe, utopian idealism, some of them eventually sailed West to a new land, others cut the heads of the French RC-backed monarchy, and the concepts of Libery and Freedom were born.

[SM]

HH wrote -
"Or, perhaps, they think The Passion is well-made and Kill Bill Vol. 2 is not. Also could have something to do with the fact that one is a 2000-year old story that has an entire major religion built around it. Other than that, the comparison is fine."

In other words - Violence is OK as long as it is perpetrated in the name of MY cult.
And this is the first I've seen Gibson nominated as a better filmmaker than Tarantino. Though the verdict from Greg "Mr. Spiritual Diminsion" Easterbrook is not in yet, i don't think.

[JulieB.]

Why is this movie getting such horrible reviews? Is it because it is a christian movie or is it because it shows violence like every other movie. I don't get it. Nobody was complaining about blood and gore when all of these war and action movies came out, so what is the big deal? Personally, I think if this movie was a different genre people wouldn't care.

[Joseph]

TO THE CRITIC "Posted by Critic at February 25, 2004 08:54 AM: "It's just a MOVIE, Joseph.
Wimp." You called me "whimp"...just movie"
easy to type that online, but can you say that saying face to face.

My faith Jesus Christ says don't repay insult with insult be leave room for the Lord's wrath.

I can only pray for my enemies of God.

Can Critics be saved? I think so.
I think your jealous my COOL qoute is around the whole world in the real media every newpaper, and yours is some unnoticible website chatroom

To God Be the Glory!

[Joseph]

TO THE CRITIC "Posted by Critic at February 25, 2004 08:54 AM: "It's just a MOVIE, Joseph.
Wimp." You called me "whimp"...just movie"
easy to type that online, but can you say that face to face.

My faith Jesus Christ says don't repay insult with insult be leave room for the Lord's wrath.

I can only pray for my enemies of God.

Can Critics be saved? I think so.
I think your jealous my COOL qoute is around the whole world in the real media every newpaper, and yours is some unnoticible website chatroom

To God Be the Glory!

[Joseph]

TO THE CRITIC "Posted by Critic at February 25, 2004 08:54 AM: "It's just a MOVIE, Joseph.
Wimp." You called me "whimp"...just movie"
easy to type that online, but can you say that face to face.

My faith, Jesus Christ, says don't repay insult with insult but leave room for the Lord's wrath.

I can only pray for my enemies of God.

Can Critics be saved? I think so.
I think your jealous my COOL qoute is around the whole world in the real media every newpaper, and yours is some unnoticible website chatroom

To God Be the Glory!

[joe]

"It's an oversimplification of something that you or someone else saw on TV."

Actually, it's an oversimplification of something I studied in a 9 credit Western Civ series as an undergrad. Simplified, but basically right.