What We Saw at the People's Climate March
Hundreds of thousands of protesters crowd the streets of New York City.
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GoogleHundreds of thousands of protesters took to the streets of New York City today to call for more action to combat global warming, in what organizers are calling the largest climate change march in history. Kmele Foster, co-host of Fox Business' The Independents, was on the scene for Reason TV talking to the participants.
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Additional Tag suggestions: Religion, Socialism, Militarization of Stupidity
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All these leftists saying we have too much stuff, but yet all of them living in the city and not volunteering to go live without a bunch of stuff in a small poor village for the rest of their lives.
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Needs a "SERVE THE PEOPLE" caption and someone on a tractor staring off into the middle distance.
Needs MOAR! -
"...but yet all of them living in the city"
Actually, living in a city is the most efficient form of living. That's a well documented fact that suburbs and "small towns" use greater resources per capita. There is no doubt that the city and suburbs both rely on each other, but if there were no Major cities we couldn't exist as a US.
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Pol Pot had some excellent ideas on how people can live in harmony with the environment. Too bad it was poorly executed.
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There weren't exactly a whole lot of corn farms in Manhattan the last time I visited though.
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Lead poisoning?
Darn. That happens every time the socialists try to build the perfect society.
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Actually, living in a city is the most efficient form of living.
Dat BIG CITY LIVIN'!!
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People get that result when they total up things like transportation and energy use. But that neglects a lot of indirect costs cities impose.
Also, small towns can exist just fine without major cities, while cities cannot exist without small towns. Cities are a bit of an anachronism; they used to be necessary for communications and trade, but they are becoming increasingly irrelevant. Their renaissance is likely short-lived.
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Has it ever dawned on you that city dwellers use much less energy than those who don't live there?
What if I told you that folks in the state of NY use less energy than 98% of the other states?
Take your head outa your ass and actually learn something - then people may listen to you.
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What if I told you that folks in the state of NY use less energy than 98% of the other states?
You would be completely full of shit?
You might be able to show that New York City has less energy usage per capita than most other regions of the country by land area, but that is largely meaningless.
NYC depends on all that "inefficient" living outside of the boroughs in order to exist. Practically speaking, residents of the city grow no food, fell no timber, mine no minerals, and manufacture no products.
If the rest of the world ceased to exist, "98%" would be the proportion of New Yorkers who died in the first six months.
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Wrong again.
The portion of suburban, exurb and rural population who actually have ANY hand in sustaining their energy use and lifestyles is exceedingly small. Many per capita studies use only RESIDENTIAL measurement and the results are the same.
It's shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone with 1/2 a brain that someone living in 1/3 the square footage and using mostly public transit has a vastly lower energy footprint than a Texas McMansion SUV driving "conservative".
Oh, BTW, NY is a heavy duty manufacturing state. I used to buy my iron castings there. Lots of stuff made there. Check it out.
Here is another hint. When you are wrong, accept the fact and learn. Don't make bigger fools of yourselves by showing how "right" you are. Almost no one in the USA can live without the continuous influx of manufactured and harvested products from ELSEWHERE. Stop acting like you are all living on 5 acres and growing a big portion of your food and energy. You are not!
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And you would still be fill of shit, but that's OK, you're used to it.
Four states are lower than NY. Hawaii is the lowest. Hmm, why might that be? Possibly because the climate is moderate year round, the islands are relatively small, and due to stupid protectionist & green policies energy is ridiculously expensive?
Nah, that can't be it.
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those people who live in the city have to depend on the people outside of the city to provide them with food,services and materials. therefore those in the city have to accept the energy use of those outside of the city as a part of their use as well. Note that people outside of the city can survive without the city but the city cannot exist with out the people outside.
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The party of science, ladies and gentlemen!
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Commies gotta commie.
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... slow clap
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People's March? The mask has truly slipped.
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Here's a poll Reason could conduct: Poll people on how much CO2, as a percentage, they think mankind is responsible for on a yearly basis. I bet the results would be comical.
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And just for shits and giggles, follow up question could be about methane production. Pretty sure most who haven't been to a ranch will have the same success rate.
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Answer to any Reason poll: Millenials
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Did they show the "Senior Outrage Coalition"? (or something like that)
I saved that pic..
for me that really captured the depth of thinking people seem to have on this issue overall. (like the first person interviewed).
'activist' = "I want collective voices to be empowered in ways that enables sustainable organization in order to engage in action effectively"...
interviewer: "So WHAT DO WE DO?"
'activist' = "huh... uh... corporations?... uh.... control.....uhm...."
I repeatedly point to 'facts' like,
"the air is cleaner than in 1980,.. the water is cleaner...we have far less smog, 'acid rain', degradation of old-growth forests, the ozone layer is more robust....." yet we've not really added anything in terms of legislation since the amendments to the clean air act almost 30 years ago. What is the problem that needs addressing?"
They start babbling about fracking. I point out that fracking has produced the highest reduction in carbon emissions of any technology there is - and will continue to do a far more effective job of doing so than 'electric cars', wind/solar, etc.
Thats when they're convinced i'm satan.
These people really don't even talk with each other about the issue. as you can see from the people interviewed - the 'environmental' policy knowledge or concern is less than skin deep; the real issue is "corporations"- their fuzzy, catch-all euphemism for 'capitalist economics'.
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Wait - I thought that it was well-established that you *are* Satan!
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the resemblance is purely coincidental.
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Oh...
(Scratches out line of notes. Continues carefully scanning commentariat)
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Well, isn't that special?
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GILMORE: "the resemblance is purely coincidental."
Maybe a wardrobe check is in order.
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So, you're saying you wouldn't be interested in a fiddle competition?
Even if I were to bet my immortal soul?
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So, you're saying you wouldn't be interested in a fiddle competition?
Even if I were to bet my immortal soul?
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Are you sure it isn't some future consciousness thing like the resemblance the aliens had to devils in Clarke's Childhood's End?
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re: the "senior outrage coalition"...
...my incomplete thought there was, "the entire movement has the incoherent indigence of a 75yr old woman who simply is sick and tired of all of this dabnamit corporations and why can't we all just have our cake now?
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And she reached that age BECAUSE someone made a profit taking care of her.
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I expected less of an outright commie presence - huh. Well, at least they're honest about wanting to lower everyone's standard of living.
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Did any of our NYC commentariat go down to examine the crazy today?
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Heh, no. That's what we pay Kmele for.
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I drank beer and watched football.
i think that made a lot more sense.
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Nah, engaged in some capitalism. Bought two pairs of shoes flown in all the way from Japan.
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I liked the CNN Op-Ed that had lots of interviews with the marchers: the woman on the Rascal, the woman from the Marshall Islands, etc.
Kinda a big carbon footprint to get all those folks to NYC.
Well, as long as they made CNN contributor John Sutter optimistic about the future!
I do have a serious question for anyone who cares to answer. There were a lot of marchers making reference to "superstorm" Sandy. Is there any evidence, any at all, that Sandy was a result of increased global temperatures?
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Is there any evidence, any at all, that Sandy was a result of increased global temperatures?
It'd be a pretty neat trick if there was.
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Yes, but my progressive friends would tell me that magazine is just one of the tentacles of the Kochtopus!
I use the term "friends" loosely, as I don't actually have any.
Seriously, though: thanks for the link.
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I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't get your reference, so I googled it. Now I get the reference.
But my google travels took me to websites that I really wish I hadn't seen. Mr Molyneux does seem to elicit baad feelings in certain quarters.
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"Is there any evidence, any at all, that Sandy was a result of increased global temperatures?"
Not as far as I know, but I'm sure you could get the same folks to blame it on the Koch Bros(tm)!
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Hey, Jerk. Like it.
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I spotted 2 good comments on Youtube then I decided to quote:
One from a guy nicknamed "fountainhead":"I remember hearing/reading somewhere that many environmentalists got disillusioned after the 60s and 70s because the focus or the 'tone' of the movement shifted from preserving the environment to anti-capitalism."
With a reply from Kyle P:"that's what happened with one of the founders of Greenpeace Patrick Moore." -
I would like to know if the commies were as representative of the whole crowd as the video implies. Fringe movements do tend to attach themselves to whatever movement they find sympathetic.
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Commies are always down to march down the street, bang drums, and smoke some weed. That's why I always keep a spray bottle filled with soapy water on me- keeps 'em at bay when I have to walk somewhere.
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a spray bottle filled with soapy water
I've long thought of them as analogous with aphids and spider mites.
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It's like a pilgrimage to the epicenter of the Church of Tardery.
Christians and Jews have Jerusalem, Muslims have Mecca, Tards have New York.
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But Tards have a choice!
NY, SF, Boston, Berkeley; I mean they don't know which direction to pray! -
Morning, lunch, evening, and bedtime prayers. It's perfect!
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Well, there is 3 minutes and 17 seconds I'll never get back.
What were we saying earlier about useful idiots? You found em Kmele.
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And I'm sure when that hag finds out her grand-son works on a drill-rig, she'll change her tune about throwing in jail anyone involved with fracking.
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So remember the Peoria mayor that sicced the local SWAT thugs on the guy parodying him on Twitter? Yeah, local judge cool with that.
A Peoria judge this week ruled that the police were entitled to raid the house on North University Street on 15 April under the town’s “false personation” law which makes it illegal to pass yourself off as a public official. Judge Thomas Keith found that police had probable cause to believe they would find materials relevant to the Twitter feed such as computers or flash drives used to create it.
Daniel was never charged as the local prosecutor decided that “false personation” could only be committed in the flesh rather than through cyberspace. But his housemate, Elliott, still has the marijuana rap hanging over him and this week’s court ruling means that his attempt to have his charges dismissed on grounds that the original police raid was mistaken has failed.
Why, you ask? Maybe because: His roommate
Elliott was just a bystander in the affair, but that didn’t stop the Swat team searching his bedroom, looking under his pillow and in a closet where they discovered a bag of marijuana and dope-smoking paraphernalia.
His roommate is up on felony charges because of what the police found during the raid.
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We are truly fucked.
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Now, this is police abuse, not half the crap that gets breathless coverage around here.
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I loved the quote from the guy that said something like "we just have too much stuff". Openly campaigning in favor of (relative) poverty? When did this become hip?
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Mendelism|9.21.14 @ 10:28PM|#
"I loved the quote from the guy that said something like "we just have too much stuff". Openly campaigning in favor of (relative) poverty?"I didn't see him tossing his glasses on the street.
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That has been hip for a very long time - it's just cloaking "steal from the rich and give to the poor" in a new guise.
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Farnsworth: Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!
Free Waterfall Jr.: You can't own property, man!
Farnsworth: I can, but that's because I'm not a penniless hippie.
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Wow. Those were some cogent arguments being laid out. My particular favorite is the argument that corporations are all doing stuff that's bad because they're all, um, corporationy which is bad because they're doing stuff that's, um, corporationy and owning EVERYTHING because, well, you know.
It's corporationy stuff all the way down because the evil corporations have already killed all the turtles to make into turtle soup, cooked with oil and gas recovered by evil fracking.
The tentacles, my god, the tentacles.
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They got their knowledge of economics and corporations from watching Captain Planet.
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She said that corporations run the government. I wouldn't say she was wrong about that.
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I'm not sure they include 'municipal unions' in their 'corporations'.
FWIW, when you look at direct political spending, "corporations" are about 1/3 of the impact of public-employees and other 'entitlement-protecting' organizations (AARP, medical workers unions) etc.
You could make a case that indirect spending has more influence on the making of legislation... but it doesnt *get people elected* the way the 'non-corporation' scumbags do.
I hate anyone using the term 'corporations' at all in this 'monolithic, generalizing' way, frankly. Its idiotically broad and meaningless.
People seem to think that if you're a publicly traded company...it matters not whether you're a small restaurant chain or a global industrial conglomerate: your *interests are all the same*, and they all go about pursuing their interests in the same underhanded and democracy-destroying way
...the idea of which i find profoundly ignorant. i usually ask people who say this stuff, "where have you worked"? to get an idea what their frame of reference is.
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I bumped into a few of these people last night on Central Park West, and it really cemented the idea of environmentalism as a religion. I think it's because ISIS, and some Westerners' sympathy with ISIS, was also on my mind. A lot of these people just need something to believe in, something greater than themselves, something that makes them think they're significant and doing important work. They create a little community, congratulate each other, create sacrifices to prove their devotion, congregate to shout at the unbelievers, etc.
A sad-looking woman was passing out fliers, and I could understand why she was doing it. For all I know, she had a big family and great job and was totally fulfilled in her life. But it just made so much sense that she was here to fill some hole in her life. It's probably true for activists of any stripe, but I think it's stronger for environmentalism/climate change in particular, given its apocalyptic rhetoric.
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Now you're making me feel bad for these people. Cut it out.
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A lot of these people just need something to believe in, something greater than themselves, something that makes them think they're significant and doing important work.
I guess that explains all the mindless babbling.
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As Chesterton said, “He who does not believe in God will believe in anything.”
Unless one has reason and logic and abandons beliefs altogether.
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I don't believe in God but that doesn't mean I abandon reason. These people abandon even that which makes them so easy to ridicule.
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"A lot of these people just need something to believe in, something greater than themselves, something that makes them think they're significant and doing important work."
And indeed they could be learning about how we got to this level of prosperity, celebrating that and promoting it. There are histories that explain how that happened, histories that tell you of the dead-ends that didn't work. But, no.
You are correct in that they hope to be involved in something, but they are not willing to learn what that might be. Like our slimy trolls, they are lazy and take the first damn charlatan who wonders down the block. It's so GOOD to have other nitwits pat you on the back! -
I think the fundamental error these people make is believing in a fixed pie. Anyone who gets ahead is therefore stealing from someone else. Even worse, they believe in a caste system where people are born into their station in life. So folks who try to better their lives are cast as the enemy.
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Both of those, in spite of the fact that most of the people interviewed lack the self-awareness to accept that they ARE the rich, and if you fallow the logic, they must yield their wealth to accomplish the goal.
But as religionists, they must flail themselves to be holy! -
Oops; hit the wrong tab...
And they hope the stated intent to flail themselves is sufficient to buy their way into heaven. They certainly hope they really don't have to give up their rent-controlled apartments! -
they must flail themselves to be holy
Yeah, there'a a big guilt complex with these folks. Which isn't surprising.
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"Yeah, there'a a big guilt complex with these folks. Which isn't surprising."
It's not surprising, since it's so common, but why?
I presume it is that finding something truly valuable requires something other than watching TV news. -
"Even worse, they believe in a caste system where people are born into their station in life'
Like it or not, most fact-based studies show the single biggest indicator of where you end up in life is where you start.
Do you deny that? It would be pretty amazing to deny the single biggest indicator!
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Correlation is not causation.
Repeat this until you understand it.
Unsurprisingly most people stay with what they know and are comfortable with throughout their lives. This is not the same thing as forcing everybody to accept a station in life and never leave it.
A static socioeconomic distribution is a necessary but not sufficient indicator of the existence of a caste system.
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While what you say is absolutely true, do you deny that with awareness of that and hard work, it's possible to better your station in life?
And if so, why create policies which seek to make everyone equal, thereby erasing anything to strive for?
If you have nothing to strive for, why strive at all?
I'll offer you what I offered Tony. I'll write you a reference so you can try and obtain Danish residency/citizenship. You'll like it there, everyone is equally consumed with putting anyone who dare to dream of success in their place, and talk badly about America (while eating a Big Mac, drinking Coke, and watching Netflix on their iPad).
I'll stay here where the Koch brothers create jobs and products, and where fewer people are trying to tell me I'm evil for having ambition.
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"While what you say is absolutely true, do you deny that with awareness of that and hard work, it's possible to better your station in life?"
I don't deny that one can buy a ticket and win the lottery - or win the lottery by accident of birth (IQ, location, health, luck, work, etc.)....
But let's not fool ourselves and say it's anything more than that. The facts speak much louder than words. Lots of slaves and indentured servants and feudal serfs and tribal members around the world busted their asses for millennia and didn't get shit except dead quicker.
This, like the lottery, is one of the Pillars of the Koch way. That is, you too could be like us...if all the stars align. Of course, if you got to be anything like them, they'd use their funds to squash you so you didn't compete for the same resources as they get cheaply.
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Hej holger, I'll take one of those refs. My email is gtsf18@hushmail.com. Thanks!
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actually, no, that's blatantly false. The statistical data shows that most people make more money as they get older and gain more work experience (WOW, WHO"D HAVE THOUGHT!?). Most people who are in the bottom quintile of income at some point in their lives is later in the top quintile at some point.
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The act of learning actual history is rather difficult. It is a disillusioning prospect. Gods and titans make missteps. I guess I have FDR on the brain, as I just read a review of the Ken Burns doc. Even by the most fawning, left wing reading of FDR, he still interred Japanese Americans and attempted to pack the Supreme Court when they ruled against him.
To repeat: He sent people to camps because of their ethnicity. Knowing, as later court documents revealed, that they were not a threat to the US (Korematsu's later revised ruling in the 80s found this out).
It is far easier to learn myth. In myth, there are clear roles: Good, Evil, Gods, Heroes, and Fools. It is easier to understand, and more satisfying. It requires less thought.
Thus, most people learn myth.
Apropos of nothing, I am going to school to become a history teacher.
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"To repeat: He sent people to camps because of their ethnicity. Knowing, as later court documents revealed, that they were not a threat to the US"
That was truly pathetic, and yet he almost did worse.
Can you imagine a director/CEO/whatever of the largest organization in history involved in the worst conflict in history knowing he is dying and REFUSING TO SO MUCH AS INCLUDE HIS LEGAL SUCCESSOR IN THE PLANS?!
That piece of shit was very fortunate that Truman learned as quickly as he did... -
But, Truman was from Misssouri and shit. FDR might as well have brought Cousin Eddie to Yalta!*
*This does give me an idea for a comedy where Truman goes to Yalta and is just the biggest fucking country bumpkin ever.
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"Apropos of nothing, I am going to school to become a history teacher"
Well, let's hope you don't latch onto other myths while you try to pop some of the existing ones.
Most historians understand that human beings are human beings and they are all very faulty. Still, they rate FDR and friends as the top.
History is comparative - not absolute. This is why conservatives make terrible historians - because, in their mind, rounding up those Americans to internment camps trumps beating back Hitler and the Japanese.
That is, you must take all the actions and accomplishments of historical figures into account when judging them. I'm quite a bit older than you and have met many thousands of people in my life. NONE of them is perfect or nearly so. In fact, every single one has major flaws.
In the context of history, we have to weigh whether Jefferson being a slave owner, big spender (lived way above his means and died broke), adulterer (or whatever you call having kids with your slave), coward (ran from gunshots), hypocrite (did things as Prez he completely was against before he was).
Using your same type of judgement of FDR, you'd probably rate Jefferson as public enemy #1.
Do you?
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“A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people’s business....”
~Eric Hoffer, The True Believer -
The big hole in her life should be filled with a cock.
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I thought this:
http://bit.ly/1DrJaOeCoupled with this:
http://bit.ly/1tEXSwUwas interesting.
The modern left formed as a reaction against capitalism and the Industrial Revolution. I think this reaction was driven by a deeply ingrained attitude toward morality. Practically every moral philosophy has warned against the evils of greed and self-interest—and here was an economic system that encourages and rewards those motives.
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In the first go-around, these anti-capitalists tried to capture the science of economics, forming theories about how capitalism is a system of exploitation that will impoverish the common man, while scientific central planning would provide abundance for all.
Let’s just say that this didn’t work out. When it turned out that central planning impoverishes the common man and capitalism provides abundance for all, they had to switch to a fallback position. Which is: to heck with prosperity. -
Those morons with their concerns over an issue that can wipe out all life on the planet. Maybe libertarians think the free market will work on a planet with a runaway greenhouse effect. These rubes need to watch more Fox Business Channel and figure out how Murray rothbard's economic theories are going to work on a planet whose seas have boiled away.
It's nice that you guys like to put collages of unscripted and unsavvy people on your youtube channel. I'll be sure to do that the next time I go to a Tea Party meeting. My answer to your question, Kmele, would have been that we need to adopt policies that are the moral equivalent of war and marshal the same amount of resources we apply to protecting the interests of American-based multinational companies overseas and apply them to fighting climate change. And I would have said that there's plenty of precedence in Northern Europe that you can have an advanced first world economy with universal health care *and* move towards an economy that is based on renewable resources-- no matter what free market fetishists tell you on Fox.
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To say you're an idiot, discredits idiots.
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This coming from the idiot who went to iraq. How'd that go, goose-stepper?
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Fuck off you miserable sniveling cunt. What, exactly, did you do to prevent me from being sent? Did you rot in prison to prevent it?
Shitstain!
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No, that's not my responsibility. I said at the time that people should be responsible for their own decisions. If you went to iraq in 2005 you knew that it was a bullshit war so... hey... Shooting nationalists for greater profits for Exxon-Mobil was your bag.
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What do you mean it wasn't your responsibility? Your country sent me to war. My options were to go or rot in prison. The least you could do is rot in prison to stop the war from happening? Why didn't you? I mean,if that's what you expect from me, the very least you could do is the same.
Diseased fucking imbecile.
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No, that's not my responsibility.
Eugene Debs would disagree. Guess you're not the socialist you make yourself out to be.
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Obama sent me to Afghanistan, you cool with that ?
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No, that war is bullshit too. I wasn't for it when GWB started it in 2001 and I'm not for it now.
Gee, there sure are a lot of ex-military here at a "libertarian" website. Perhaps this dalliance with far right politics is an effort borne out of guilt? No worries on taking money from the gov, bro. We've all done it.
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To ask Francisco to desert is unconscionable. The truth is, you're a miserable individual for making such an assertion. You have no principles whatsoever.
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Wow. Just... wow.
I'm all for nonviolence, but if Francisco met you in real lie, I'd support him punching you. Fuck, I'd do it for him.
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As a libertarian I support the NAP, but as a closet ancap, I fully embrace the idea of spontaneous vigilantism. Also, I was raised by John Wayne movies. Francisco should hang a foot so far up this Internet toughguy's ass AmSoc tastes dogshit for weeks.
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I would totally have no problem if Francisco slapped this asshole out.
None.
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Whoa.
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Those morons with their concerns over an issue that can wipe out all life on the planet.
Typical shitlib hysteria.
This coming from the idiot who went to iraq. How'd that go, goose-stepper?
This coming from the idiot who didn't know that retired people aren't counted in the labor force participation rate.
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american socialist|9.21.14 @ 11:56PM|#
"Those morons with their concerns over an issue that can wipe out all life on the planet"oh, goody! Commie-kid asshole is here to lecture us!
Hey, asshole! Tell us about how the USSR did wonders at 'preserving the health of the mud momma!'
Or, just go suck on some drano. -
People that think collective farms and state-run industries built in the 1930s have anything to do with building a green energy infrastructure in the 21st century are people that you can safely say are employed in the practice of grasping at plastic straws
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Its central planning all the way down!!!
Right, right.
Ok, I admit it, you might be on to something. I'm sure 21st century communist ideas will be much more efficient at starving and killing people then collective farming was.
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And I would have said that there's plenty of precedence in Northern Europe that you can have an advanced first world economy with universal health care *and* move towards an economy that is based on renewable resources
As long has you have a country, like the United States, footing the bill of hundreds of billions of dollars in protecting your country from invasion by the USSR/ Putin's Russia for the past 60 something years or so.
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Asshole commie-kid is more than willing to spend your money in the hopes he doesn't have to admit he's an ignoramus.
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I didn't think we should do that nor, at any point in my life where the ussr existed did I consider it a threat. There were plenty of European leftists who would have been glad to take you up on the offer to run there own affairs and get the U.S. Out of Western Europe.
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Of course the Soviet Union was never a threat. It was run by socialists and was thusly doomed to failure.
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Look how long we've kept Cuba going.
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"I didn't believe there was a threat, therefore there is no threat."
Socialist logic right there.
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"an issue that can wipe out all life on the planet."
its remarkable how you can say things like this...
... yet point to absolutely nothing in the 'real world' which their hodgepodge of various fuzzy policy concepts would actually *do anything* about.
meaning = even if you think "global warming" is an imminent threat to the planet: these people have ZERO actual ideas about any practical ways to address it.
All you seem to have is a defense of a 'moral posture'... and nothing else. Posturing *does* nothing.
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But the kids!! (from the vid) They have the ideas, but they're being squashed by the korporashuns!!
I wanted to punch that guy in the face. This is where I wished Kmele wouldn't have pressed harder. "What ideas exactly are you referring to sir? -
You're a breed of retard so horrifying you could headline a horror movie!
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"I'll be sure to do that the next time I go to a Tea Party meeting."
You do that, asshole. I'll be happy to cal you on your bullshit as I do regularly.
But I can see you've been hit. Rarely does your mendacity take that amount of time. Have you finally noticed there has been no temp increase? -
To my point:
if 20 years ago, the US had adopted policies recommended by Greens now...
...the nation AND the environment would be far far worse off.
Instead, the US completely ignored the greens, refused to sign anything like the Kyoto protocol, put zero policies in place to actually meet their claimed targets , and simply invested in the most attractive new energy technologies.
The US let 'the market' work.
By contrast, Germany signed the Kyoto protocol, shut down its nuclear energy capacity, and imposed strict 'Green' mandates on its energy markets, and adopted a carbon trading system...
and it now has an energy system which is has exploded in cost WHILE increasing its overall carbon output. Everyone agrees = their policy was a disaster on all counts.
Meanwhile, the US is the only nation on earth to have exceeded the Kyoto carbon reduction targets... even though it never even agreed to 'try'.
by any measure, the most "environmental" thing to do is: the opposite of whatever "Greens" tell you.
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by any measure, the most "environmental" thing to do is: the opposite of whatever "Greens" tell you.
This is true not just in relation to carbon emissions (but I must say you frame the issue quite nicely there). Other examples include the Endangered Species Act incentivizing people to kill endangered species (or discontinue raising them in captivity), recycling wasting more resources than it saves, compact fluorescent bulbs that contain toxic mercury, organic farming methods using wasteful amounts of farmland, and on and on.
But what did you think of Kmele's jeans jacket?
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"put zero policies in place to actually meet their claimed targets , and simply invested in the most attractive new energy technologies"
This is total BS.
Yes, Reagan and Bush refused to do anything to help us along...but even GW (once we have a Dem Congress) ended up signing multiple bills which championed Energy Efficiency. Examples include vastly raising the CAFE standards by 2020, tax credits for wind, biomass and solar, etc.
It's those efforts - plus the shocks many individuals experienced when fuel prices went up (Katrina, etc.) and they were sitting with big houses, poor MPG cars, etc...which is driving the next wave.
As folks here have made clear - neither Tesla nor Brightsource nor any of the big wind power gains in Texas and Ca, etc. are "free market".
It must be nice to make up your own facts. Sure, it's history that Reagan and Bush I didn't do shit to solve our energy problems. But that era is over. GW and Obama have both signed many things into law.
Oh, Clinton actually made many executive orders on increased appliance efficiency, etc......although, on orders from Cheney, GW rescinded all of them in his first month in office.
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Oh, OH! I missed the asshole's declaration of STUPID:
"My answer to your question, Kmele, would have been that we need to adopt policies that are the moral equivalent of war"
You bet, asshole. War on prosperity! That'll give you what you want: poverty.
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an issue that can wipe out all life on the planet
Is it just me or has this all come full circle? I feel like we stopped hearing this kind of hyperbole a few years ago. The stakes were reduced to more extreme weather and losing some islands and coastlines. Now a lot of the rhetoric is returning to complete global catastrophe.
It's probably just me. But it's strange to start seeing this kind of ridiculous shit again. Maybe it's the death throes, who knows.
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Does hyperbole mean citing scientific articles ?
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Does hyperbole mean citing scientific articles ?
It does when said article is based on a dubious warming of 11–12°C.
http://www.globalwarming.org/w.....20S-MT.png
At the present rate of warming we should reach 11°C in about 1500 years.
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I would have given this trolling a B+, but I then saw what a rise it got from everyone. Really at least an A- now.
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"with their concerns over an issue that can wipe out all life on the planet."
You know what has wiped out more life on this planet than any climate disaster?
Socialist political regimes....
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The US accounts for 14% of carbon emissions. 40% of our emissions are driven by the generating plants that the EPA is going to regulate. The 2030 EPA target is a 30% reduction in carbon emissions.
0.14 x 0.40 x 0.30 = 0.0168 = 1.68%
The Moral Equivalent of War, or, The Moron's War on Arithmetic?
The EPA regulations--if achieved--will result in a 1.68% global reduction in carbon emissions. If the non-US percentage of emissions grow beyond their current 86% then the US reduction would be even smaller than 1.68%. Not even measurable, and yet we're going to cripple our economy to pursue it.
Innumerate morons.
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"Not even measurable, and yet we're going to cripple our economy to pursue it."
Ya gotta chuckle how "Libertarians" call out the other side for hyperbole (and, yes, end of all life IS hyperbole!) and then come up with an even BIGGER piece of BS themselves!
Let me give it to you straight - from one who knows economics. Cleaning up things and the move toward cleaner energy sources has been going on for 100's of years - Yes, oil and gas are a move from dirtier coal, which is a move from dirtier combusting wood....
Not only will such direction not hurt the economy,but they will likely help it as new science and industry create new jobs and entities. It doesn't take too many folks to pump oil of the ground (relatively) or strip mine coal.
And, having cars that get 30-45 MPG and gas at double the price as when they got 10-14....well, I'll let you calculate that one out yourself.
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So 1.68% is extremely significant in your language?
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"...wipe out all life on the planet."
Is there a killer asteroid headed our way or do you believe that climate variability will lead to the demise of ALL life on the planet in the next 50 years? If the latter is the case then I'd have to observe that you've not spent a lot of time looking at the long-scale history of this planet vis-a-vis climate variability and particularly the histories of extinctions, which are not a hockey stick related phenomena.
I also find amusing your dragging in universal health care in a silly conflation. Or are you trying to contend that the only way to save us all from the pending apocalypse of climate doom is to provide shitty healthcare for everyone.
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"Those morons with their concerns over an issue that can wipe out all life on the planet."
The utter nonsensical arrogance of this statement can be met but with a face palm.
"Northern Europe that you can have an advanced first world economy with universal health care *and* move towards an economy that is based on renewable resources-- no matter what free market fetishists tell you on Fox."
No, you lying ignorant commie fuckhead. Denmark uses nuclear energy from France. Germany is moving away from green because it all but nearly destroyed their economy. In Germany and the UK millions lost power due to the green madness and thousands lose their lives needlessly. That's on YOUR and your ILK heads.
Ireland as well is facing major penalties to pay some crooked EU department for not meeting Kyoto targets.
Asshole, it is YOU the ignorant buffoon and once more, left-wingers have blood on their hands due to their misguided beliefs rooted in shamanism.
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I don't think Northern Europe would be what it is today without relatively free markets. My take on this is that while The New Deal was being cut in the US, Northern Europe made similar decisions.
However if you look at a country like Denmark during that time, as a compromise for more socialization in government services, markets were deregulated and more institutions were privatized.
I'm personally convinced that this, combined with a very homogeneous population, staved off a collapse. Now with more diversity and returning regulation, these socialized services are getting ever worse and more expensive for the tax payer there.
On the same side of that coin, green energy is costing the Danish tax payer even more money. Denmark closed its only nuclear power plant ("research station") which delivered clean, safe, cheap energy to a large chunk of its population, and instead put in place an expensive wind energy research center. All in the name of political correctness.
The hatred of nuclear energy by the left is increasingly difficult for me to explain. It's cheaper and probably safer than most renewable energy sources, certainly than oil/coal. The resource requirements are tiny, compare to the land requirements for solar/wind farms for instance, or the equipment and maintenance required. All translating into a smaller ecological footprint.
Maybe the green energy movement are afraid to be out of a job?
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"The hatred of nuclear energy by the left is increasingly difficult for me to explain"
After the debacles in Japan, this is hardly a topic of the left!
Free Markets don't like nukes. Period. It would be 100% impossible to obtain full insurance for one - so much so that the only way we have ANY nukes in the USA is because Congress exempted them from insurance (we, the taxpayers, are on the hook).
So self respecting free market person could be behind a scheme where protection of the people and land/water/air (insurance) could not be obtained.
If one cannot pay the total cost of doing business - and build it into the price of the final product - then they should not be in the game.
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"Germany is moving away from green because it all but nearly destroyed their economy. "
Proof again there is no such thing as a libertarian! This type of black and white thinking has one name "conservative".
""Observers say the records will keep coming as Germany continues its Energiewende, or energy transformation, which aims to power the country almost entirely on renewable sources by 2050."
You a-holes have shit for brains and are unable to understand that multi-trillion dollar projects spanned over decades ALWAYS are adjusted as the facts on the ground play out.
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Please tell us more - oh genius you - one who argues nonsensical stuff hours after thread is done - please teach us. As without you, our world is surely doomed.
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Those morons with their concerns over an issue that can wipe out all life on the planet.
No, the morons are the people who believe that climate change "can wipe out all life on the planet". We can keep burning fossil fuels for centuries before we even reach the CO2 levels at the time of the dinosaurs, a lush period in earth's history.
Maybe at some point we have to worry about climate change; this century, it's a non-issue.
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Yet of all the countries that identify themselves as socialist, not one of them has decent environmental standards and most of them rank among the most environmentally damaged countries on the planet. Russia (as the USSR) had a major pipeline rupture that was left flowing for over 6 months because it was winter in Siberia. You care to guess how they cleaned up the 72 square miles of tundra that were covered in oil? They didn't. China is well-known as the biggest air polluter (and the largest carbon dioxide emitter) on the planet, to the extent that Chinese air pollution affects the west coast of the US. Vietnam treats only 4.25% of the waste water from industry in that country. Nickel and cobalt mining in Cuba, which are the country's largest source of export revenue, operate with virtually no environmental rules and have polluted aquifers and coastal waters to toxic levels. Venezuela has some of the worst pollution levels in South America, and the "beautiful" Valencia Lake is not safe to swim in. So how's that socialism working out for you?
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It was the usual post-communist leftie march. That is, it was a petit-bourgeois re-enactment of meaningless ritual that passes for serious politics among those too inexperienced, too emotionally excited or too poorly read and too unpracticed at self-reflection or political analysis to know or perhaps care how futile and tired the conventional march has become. Crazed grouplets of anti-capitalist movements trying to fan the embers of Marxism back to life, gender and transgender groups with their own spin on climate, earnest eco-warriors, publicity-seeking hucksters, adrenalin junkies, college kids wanting a taste of the venerable tradition of public protest, and, as always, a great many people who don’t think that burning marijuana adds to the world’s CO2 load, marched down Manhattan’s streets. The chants echoed through the skyscraper canyons, the drums rolled, participants were caught up in a sense of unity and togetherness that some of them had never known. It was almost like politics, almost like the epochal marches that have toppled governments and changed history ever since the Paris mob stormed the Bastille.
...This was an ersatz event: no laws will change, no political balance will tip, no UN delegate will have a change of heart. -
People like this are the worst advertisement for marijuana legalization ever, btw.
These assholes being associated with pot hurts us normal people who like to toke up. It's be like the face of alcohol consumption was the homelesss wino on the corner.
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Hundreds of thousands of protesters
Wow. Every climate protest I can remember has been a dismal failure of a few 100 people standing around trying to stand together so journalists can crop their photos to make their numbers look bigger.
Why was this one such a success?
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Well, when you're offering ass sex, pot, and Mexicans, people tend to flock to you.
Why do you think there's a libertarian moment right now?
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Yes lets blame civil libertarian "success" for a bat shit insane insurgence of socialist climate change protests.
Makes perfect sense.
We should blame ISIS on libertarians as well...cuz why the hell not.
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"We should blame ISIS on libertarians as well...cuz why the hell not.'
Nah. It's Obama's fault. Of course!
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Dammit! Mexican ass sex and pot!
And I chose to spend my weekend attending the Lone Star Le Mans at COTA in Austin, genuflecting at the altar of the internal combustion engine. I drove there all 3 days. On the 130 toll road. At speeds exceeding the posted limit.
The ladies all love me because I have a huge carbon footprint and I don't participate in drum circles.
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"genuflecting at the altar of the internal combustion engine"
Have you geniuses gotten the efficiency of those things up over about 25% yet?
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Bill Gates is backing development of a very clever two-cylinder opposed internal combustion engine with breakthrough efficiency.
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The socialist left is in a real resurgence right now.
There are probably a thousand theories as to why this is, and every one of them would be within some percentage, correct.
We may like to talk about the "Libertarian Moment", but point to a march where 100,000 of us were talking about free markets, reducing regulation and reducing the size of government. Yeah, you can't. You get fifteen people together passing out pamphlets about liberty and you get a breathless report from CBS about teabaggers.
But you *can* get 100,000 people together in one place who will say we need to return to a more hunter-gatherer society.
Libertarianism is so fucking far from winning anything it's positively depressing.
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This probably builds on lessons learned from the occupy movement.
Attach your message to as many minorities as possible, attract said minorities with their own message+your's, and promise free stuff (like concerts, juggling workshops, food, etc.) in the hopes that a sizable amount of unaffiliated people show up just for the freebies.
That way you have a lot of people who look like they have the same message. That's the beauty of identity politics, you can always stand up a crowd.
Libertarians on the other hand work for evil corporations, who don't pay them time and a half for attending this kind of event. They also generally want to earn something, not get freebies.
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"Libertarians on the other hand work for evil corporations, who don't pay them time and a half for attending this kind of event. They also generally want to earn something, not get freebies."
Hmm, I didn't go, but I know a lot of people who did and they have been working their entire lives - some for institutions (corporations, schools, etc.) and many for themselves. You know...earning money!
It must be nice to make up these fantasies and pretend they are true. I'd "betcha" that the folks there generally represented the upper middle class of workers....you know, people who are responsible and productive.
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Citation needed that that most of these were middle class folks, as most middle class folks cannot take off work to protest and would never contemplate using vacation time on anything other than spending time with their family.
Or do you really believe the fact you know of a couple of people means you know the average person in attendance?
Though why ask late Tony - like many other threads, you dropped by after conversation was done and added a bunch of nonsensical stuff knowing you could do so with little chance of being challenged.
What a glorious person you must be (in your own mind).
On second thought - Citation needed that you have any productive friends.
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"The socialist left is in a real resurgence right now."
Don't you have a Larouche meeting you are missing??
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Unfortunately, Obo is gonna jump on this bandwagon, and the 'free shit' party is gonna claim that you and your unicorn are just fine so long as you vote 'free shit'.
You want people to learn something? This is not where it's gonna happen, This is "Ima feel good brain-dead!" -
OT: Florida prison boss fires 32 over inmate deaths
Thirty-two guards with the Florida Department of Corrections were fired Friday afternoon in what union officials were calling a “Friday night massacre.” All were accused of criminal wrongdoing or misconduct in connection with the deaths of inmates at four state prisons.
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I love that the union's argument boils down to "these guys were just following orders."
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That's awesome.
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Every now and then, something right is done.
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Over-under on how quickly all 32 are reinstated after arbitration?
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The American prison system is a fucking national disgrace.
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Hey, they only oversee a massively high amount of male rape.
And male rape doesn't count!
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male rape doesn't count
Nor does female on male domestic violenceIn other news, anybody seen her in the The Fappening Part Deux? Yikes. Like a roast beef sandwich, hold the bread.
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These are the guys that killed a prisoner by cooking him in a 180 degree shower, right?
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Prisoners don't matter... Do not deserve our sympathy in any way. They deserve every punishment we can think of, and more! After all, some of them smoked or even SOLD “pot”, or blew on a “lung flute” without a doctor’s prescription! To learn about “lung flutes”, see my web site, and use that as a search-string (“lung flute”, at www.churchofSQRLS.com …
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Don't they have any Black, Brown or Asians in NYC?
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Too busy having a life to get involved in stupid shit such as this, I'm sure. Besides, I'm pretty sure that there were sufficient numbers of self-flagellating Caucasians in that crowd watching out for the interests of their "non-white brothers and sisters" to balance out (in the minds of the cretins who think that Rousseau was right) the lack of actual wide spectrum representation.
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The earth has been hotter and it's been colder. So, do we know what ideal mean earth temperature should be? Is today's temp ideal, too hot, too cold, and how do we know that?
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The current climate is actually one of the coldest and worst in earth's history (only snowball earth was worse): for the past 7 million years, the planet is covered in ice for about 80000 years and then thaws for about 20000 years, over and over again with a 100000 year cycle. And each cycle, it's been getting colder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoclimatology
Before I figured this out, I was concerned about climate change. Now I think it may actually be a good thing.
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Hundreds of thousands of these people? Holy shit! That was scary.
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Over the mountains and through the woods dude.
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I was on an NJT train to NYC yesterday filled with these folks. One was an aging pony-tailed hippy carrying a biography of Che Guevara.
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I love this intelligent debate!
Framing 300,000 people as crazy and mixed up - when among them were the families of the Big Oil Companies that started this who thing - is pretty far out!
OK, let's compare. According to those here, Big Gubment is a vastly bigger problem.
How many people could you fellas get for a "march for oil and coal" in Omaha? It's no fair if you feature the pants shitter Nugent. Just for a march.
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I've got roughly 300 million Americans, yourself included, to prove that consumption of oil is what people want.
Stated vs revealed preferences.
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"Stated vs revealed preferences"
So we could take the fact that the % of coal being used (down) for electricity as well as the surge in cars with better MPG is also the "people's choice"?
Good. I'm with you. Use the old fuels until we ramp up the news ones - which is what is happening right now.
Only regressives, though, fight against the future and more reasonable and sustainable fuels.
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Forced doesn't equal revealed idiot.
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Actually, we tend to go on cruises and have conventions; more fun and more civilized.
And amusing as these people's stupidity is, in the end, they would chase out of office any politician who actually did what they wanted, because they want jobs and economic growth like everybody else.
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March for coal and oil? Ted Nugent? Who the hell are you actually arguing with?
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What We Saw at the People's Climate March
A bunch of economically illiterate commie fucktards.
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Take a deep breath and think about this: For how many decades now have we had these Circuses of the Streets, with the dorky folk songs, giant puppets, earnest graybeards, dancing young women and rhyming chants? We need to raise awareness about the need to educate citizens to organize and voice our support for the need to encourage alternative blahblah, ....ad nauseum. It's gone beyond beating a dead horse to just stamping their feet on the ground in an everlasting tantrum.
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"For how many decades now have we had these Circuses of the Streets, with the dorky folk songs, giant puppets, earnest graybeards, dancing young women and rhyming chants? "
Yes, and among other things, they:
Cleaned up vast amounts of waterways, land and water in this country.
Helped end the Vietnam War.
Worked toward decrim of Pot and the end of the War on Drugs.
Created a world where "do your own thing" was more acceptable as opposed to "the straight and narrow" (rat race).
Created some of the most amazing music and art of all time.
Protected vast swaths of land in land trusts, conservation easements, bike paths, etc....
Tantrum? Heck, I think you folks feel bad because there is this nagging voice in your heads which asks you whether life is REALLY about Greed being Good or if there is more to it.
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Yeah - it must be that all your people (and by extension you) have always been of the right side and your opponents always evil.
Must be nice to be you - to be so certain in your superiority over anyone who disagrees and to know that all these people agree with you in every point.
Must be divine knowledge.
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You're a bigger man than me Kmele to go into that abyss of stupidity.
All I can say is these are the people that will run whatever new system (basically communism probably with murder not too far behind) they come up with? Jesus that guy at around the 1:15 mark? Or the spaced out chicks dancing at the 2:26 mark? Those people will run the affairs of a complex society?
I don't think so.
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I'm for less carbon.We do have climate change. Our work will not solve the problem without China and India coming on board. When I saw who was some of the sponsors I was totality put off.I knew it would be a anti-capitalist march. That's one of the problems with the left they want to inject everything into every march. Going to an anti-war march I have to see all the BS from the socialist etc. Yea there were a lot of kooks who are illogical and not very intelligent. I could pick out a lot of nut jobs in the tea party rallies also.
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These people frighten me.
I don't think we'll ever be able to get rid of these morons, at least not until the gene pool somehow manages to evolve them out through some sort of natural selection other. The problem though is that these morons can breed and do so in massive numbers.
Humanity is doomed.
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This video is another confirmation of my suspicion that climate change hysteria is an excuse for proselytizing Cambodia-style socialism; the brand that forced people out of the cities and back to a more "rural" way of life. Without exception this group was a bunch of rich people telling the rest of us how enlightened they are and how pointless material things are. Is it any surprise that all of the "solutions" offered by these solipsists involve making energy more expensive? Of course the enlightened rich are only to force everyone into making such a noble sacrifice. For them, it is recharging their iPad using solar cells attached to the roof of their six to eight figure house. For Africans, it means no electricity for hospitals and being priced out creating potable water.
