Gun Expert Joe Biden Advises His Wife To Illegally Discharge a Shotgun

Jill BidenSome White House shutterbugJoe Biden is the Obama administration's point man on the firearms issue. Back in December, he took charge of a task force given the responsibility of finding excuses for violating Americans' self-defense rights coming up with legislative solutions to address gun violence in the United States. So, how much of a firearms expert is Joe? And how well does this member of the Delaware Bar know the gun laws of his home state? Not so much, it turns out. At least, he's publicly dispensing advice that would leave people disarmed in dangerous situations, and could get them thrown in jail.

In a Facebook gathering hosted by Parents magazine, Vice President Biden was asked about self defense for women, and whether his proposed restrictions wouldn't leave them disarmed. He responded:

Get a double-barreled shotgun. Have the shells in the 12 gauge shotgun. And I promise you...as I told my wife...we live in an area that's in the woods and somewhat secluded. I said, 'Jill, if there's ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony here, walk out and put that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house. I promise you whoever is coming in is not going to...You don't need an AR-15. It's harder to aim, it's harder to use and in fact, you don't need 30 rounds to protect yourself. Buy a shotgun, buy a shotgun.

The problem, U.S. News & World reports, is that his advised shotgun technique is illegal in the state of Delaware. As Steven Nelson writes for that magazine:

A sergeant with the Wilmington, Del., police department explained to U.S. News that city residents are not allowed to fire guns on their property.

The sergeant, who preferred not to be identified, said that Wilmington residents are also not allowed to shoot trespassers. "On your property you can't just shoot someone," he said. "You have to really feel that your life is being threatened."

Defense attorney John Garey—a former Delaware deputy attorney general—agreed, and added that several criminal charges might result if Jill Biden took her husband's advice.

"In Delaware you have to be in fear of your life to use deadly force," Garey said. "There's nothing based on his scenario alone" indicating a reason to fear imminent death, he noted.

Garey said that under Biden's scenario, Jill Biden could be charged with aggravated menacing, a felony, and reckless endangering in the first degree.

"You cannot use deadly force to protect property" in Delaware, added Garey.

"It is not uncommon" for people to be charged with crimes under similar circumstances, he said. "I've seen cases where lawful citizens have used guns outside their homes and they end up arrested."

Note, also, that our hypothetical frightened Jill Biden (that's her, pictured above) has just fired two loads of shot in the air, where gravity will soon take control and bring them back down to Earth — potentially on somebody's head. And, since hypothetical frightened Jill Biden has just fired two shells into the air from a double-barreled shotgun, she is now disarmed, and has to reload before she can defend herself.

Whoopsies.

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  • gaijin||

    Jill Biden could be charged with aggravated menacing, a felony, and reckless endangering in the first degree

    "Could". What are the chances that a member of the political class, at the highest level, would ever be charged with something the rest of us would surely be thrown in jail for.

  • Randian||

    Let's ask David Gregory.

  • sarcasmic||

    Was that a clip or a magazine?

  • Professional Target||

    Magazine. Clips are used to load certain kinds of magazines.

  • Rich||

    Or Dianne Feinstein.

  • ||

    Speaking - he made more of an ass of himself when he said he agreed with red light cameras, but disagreed with speed cameras and all but admitted it was because he tends not to run red lights, but drives over the speed limit with regularity.

    The liberal mindset in a microcosm.

  • Randian||

    Oh man, when was this? I would like to see that clip.

  • ||

    On the Today Show this week - I'll see if I can dig it up. But it was just in a chit-chat segment before Al Roker, so I doubt it will make it onto their clip reel.

  • ||

  • ||

    I should add that they continued with the palaver for another few seconds with Al Roker where it is much clearer what Gregory is getting at.

  • Alan||

    Exactly what I was thinking. Biden doesn't need to know the law because he and his family are above the law.

  • Sam Grove||

    Also, she could hit a secret service agent.

  • Mike M.||

    The greatest life insurance policy a sitting president ever had.

  • Rich||

    "God love ya!"

  • wwhorton||

    "Note, also, that our hypothetical frightened Jill Biden has just unleaded two loads of shot in the air, where gravity will soon take control and bring them back down to Earth — potentially on somebody's head. And, since hypothetical frightened Jill Biden has just fired two shells into the air from a double-barreled shotgun, she is now disarmed, and has to reload before she can defend herself."

    Oh, not to worry. The Bidens don't live anywhere near the hoi polloi, so she can go ahead and discharge whatever she'd like off their second-floor balcony (which I believe is like a porch, but for rich people). It's not like anyone's close enough to hear the shot. Worst-case scenario it might land on the help, but, in this economy, you can always find people to replace them.

    And, hey, if she's really in danger the drones will take care of it.

  • Professional Target||

    A school neighbors his property. Another house is a hundred feet away.

    No imminent danger.
    Discharging a firearm near a home.
    Discharging a firearm near a school.
    Discharging a firearm near a public road.
    Felony public endangering.
    Felony menacing.

    What an incredible jackass.

  • Alan||

    Hey, in fairness - a shotgun is very deadly at close range, but not so deadly at medium range or beyond - unless it's firing a slug.

  • John||

    Biden may have the most attractive wife someone with an IQ below 90 ever had.

  • sarcasmic||

    Google Mrs Kucinich.

  • John||

    I think Kucinich might come at at a solid 91 or 92. He is a Warner Heisenberg compared to Biden.

  • stoneymonster||

    *Werner

  • LTC(ret) John||

    Danke!

    /von Braun auf

  • gaoxiaen||

    Too bad that men's platform shoes went out of style.

  • Randian||

    I dunno, hockey players seem to somehow pull down attractive mates.

  • John||

    You have to have better than Biden level intelligence to play in the NHL. Not much, but some.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Environmentalists like Biden are less intelligent about hockey sticks than players.

  • ||

    She would look pretty hot holding an AR-15 with all the trimmings.

  • John||

    I am sure some of it is makeup and a good photographer, but for an over 50 mom, she is very hot.

  • ||

    Any woman would be lucky to look like that at her age. Too bad she's such a maroon.

  • John||

    She snagged a rich buffoon and a comfy life. She might not be as big of a maroon as she seems.

  • ||

    It's not that, it's her illogical and violent liberal ideology.

  • John||

    Maybe she just spouts that to snag her rich buffoon and keep him happy. Yeah, I know she is probably a maroon.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    She very attractive, but she's got lifeless eyes. Like a doll's eyes.

  • Jordan||

    Not bad at all. But she needs to either adjust her posture or pull her skirt down below her tits.

  • John||

    She is just short waisted.

  • T||

    Welcome to the upper middle class burbs. You'd be surprised how many of those dead-eyed women are out there. The wife and I often make jokes about the Stepfords in our neighborhood. It's one of the many, many reasons why we're moving back into the city.

  • John||

    Maybe I just don't mind dead eyes. But I think her eyes look fine. Perhaps I should have married a Stepford.

  • Loki||

    She very attractive, but she's got lifeless eyes

    Well she has been married to Joe Biden for many years...

  • Monty Crisco||

    "She very attractive, but she's got lifeless eyes. Like a doll's eyes."

    You know the way they roll over white when she comes into bite you...No, I'll never wear a lifejacket with a MILF like that...

  • AlmightyJB||

    I'd hit it.

  • John||

    The knowledge that she was cuckolding Biden would make it especially pleasurable.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    I'll be in my bunk...

  • ||

    just fired two loads of shot

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Nice to see that not even senior citizen females are immune to the inevitable discussion of their sexability when Reason posts their picture.

  • geekster||

    Old broads need love too.

  • ||

    Can a man look a a woman, any woman, and not immediately calculate here fuckability score?

  • John||

    If that woman is not his mother or sister, no.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I don't know. But he can refrain from discussing it.

  • John||

    Sure. But why would he?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Civilization?

  • RFID||

    And what is the price we pay for civilization?

  • Agammamon||

    Hey you signed the social contract, you don't get to complain.

  • sloopyinca||

    Maybe Tulpy-poo and Ken Schultz are doing a Vulcan mind meld?

  • Randian||

    I'm going to third that the locker-room mentality needs to be tamped down a bit.

  • Virginian||

    Take the red pill buddy. Besides, as far as I'm aware all the female regulars are taken. Banjos is guarded by vicious ducks who have subdued even the supposed paterfamilias.

    And nicole is in Chicago. I swore a blood oath I would only enter Chicago as the head of the army of liberation.

    So yeah, back to matter at hand...hmmm yeah she's not bad looking for an older lady. It would be a good thing to see if I were courting Biden's daughter. If he has one.

  • John||

    I am pretty sure Kristen has some biker b/f.

  • ||

    Biker and ex-punk, yes indeedy.

    I'll be in my bunk - and not alone!

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    You're never "ex-punk". Punk lives inside you, forever!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Besides, as far as I'm aware all the female regulars are taken.

    Mary hooked up with someone?

  • Harvard||

    A biker gang down at Billy's. Nobody told you?

  • gaoxiaen||

    First Amendment. That should especially aply here. Except for the asshole that posts about single moms making money from home. He's probably some Ted Bundy or Hannibal Lector type.

  • AlmightyJB||

    We're not all young whippersnappers like you.

  • Randian||

    Would we call 61 "senior"?

  • Generic Stranger||

    I believe 55 is the currently established age for seniority.

  • Randian||

    See, I thought it was 65.

  • Generic Stranger||

    It probably should be moved there, but AARP membership and senior discounts at most places is 55, last time I saw one.

  • Loki||

    This is why there are no female libertarians.

  • Paul.||

    My experience has been the lower the IQ of the man, the hotter the wife.

  • Paul.||

    For example, my first wife was considered pretty hot. I'm much wiser and smarter now. Couldn't get laid if I were running through a $5 whorehouse waving a $10 bill.

  • Loki||

    What about in a women's prison with a stack of pardons?

  • DenverJay||

    What, you never saw Forest Gump's wife?

  • Bardas Phocas||

    She doesn't listen to him anyway.

  • fish||

    Didn't "Crazy Old Uncle Joe" also tell people to buy the double barreled shotgun and operate the pump action in one of his earlier firearms training sessions?

  • Rich||

    That's how he does it when skeet shooting with the President.

  • AlmightyJB||

    That's why they should only let Dick Cheney go skeet shooting with the president.

  • ||

    I heartily endorse this proposal!

  • AlmightyJB||

    You don't to know anything about an issue to be the government front man on it. In fact, since the gun grabbers goals and arguments do not jive with one another, the less you know the better.

  • Rich||

    Barrel-shrouded in secrecy!

  • Paul.||

    Threadwinner.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "And, since hypothetical frightened Jill Biden has just fired two shells into the air from a double-barreled shotgun, she is now disarmed, and has to reload before she can defend herself."

    I'd guess Mumbly Joe thinks libertarianism is a failure of the imagination.

    Why can't we all just fall in love with the imaginary world Biden and Obama are trying to build in people hearts?

    It's a world where unicorns fart shotgun shells straight up into the air!

  • ||

    As a cunty libertarian woman, I hate to say this - but that's a damn fine turn of phrase, there, Lou.

    It's a world where unicorns fart shotgun shells straight up into the air!
  • Jordan||

    As a cunty libertarian woman

    Oh you!

  • ||

    I just enjoy needling our overly-sensitive friend

  • ||

    Why can't we all just fall in love with the imaginary world Biden and Obama are trying to build in people hearts Big Brother?

  • T||

    What farts .308 and 5.56? Because whatever it is, I need to get me one of those and feed it beans.

  • Loki||

    It's a world where unicorns fart shotgun shells straight up into the air!

    And the pellets turn to fairy dust on the way back down that will make all of your wildest dreams come true if you only believe hard enough.

  • gaoxiaen||

    Cocaine?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    To make matters even worse, Biden's house is inside a Gun Free School Zone (defined as 1000 feet from school property, and the baseball diamond edges are 90 feet), so discharge is prohibited under federal law too.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Unless it happens to come from the gun of a secret service guy pissed because his South American hooker raised her prices again.

    FYTW

  • Zeb||

    In that case, I kind of hope she does use the gun there. Would probably be a good case to challenge that stupid law on. It would put the courts in the awkward position of having to decide whether to favor the wife of the VP or some stupid idiotic "for the children" law.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    It would put the courts in the awkward position of having to decide whether to favor the wife of the VP or some stupid idiotic "for the children" law.

    Unless the DOJ declines to prosecute.

  • Paul.||

    so discharge is prohibited under federal law too.

    Wouldn't ownership be prohibited as well?

  • sloopyinca||

    Mind your tongue, peasant. We're talking about the Vice-President's wife here. Questioning her is unAmerican and possibly racist since her husband is second in line behind a (half) black President.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    You can possess in a GFSZ (outside the school property itself) as long as you're on private property and/or have a license to carry from the state you're in.

  • Rich||

    Quit picking on the Vice President. He knows that Americans will check federal, state, and local laws before applying his advice willy-nilly.

  • ||

    That's what the agent said to me when I volunteered to not pay my federal income taxes. Like all men named Joe, he's a fucking idiot.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Blow me

  • Rights-Minimalist Autocrat||

    I resemble that remark.

  • John||

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news.....47711.html

    There can be no ridicule of dear leader.

  • ||

    Or they just know who their customers are.

  • John||

    That is the point. With those people there can be no ridiculing of Dear Leader.

  • Rich||

    "Even if he's not the president, you're going to have an African-American promoting the sale of chicken? They can do better than that."

    Right. Have Asian reporter Pei-Sze Cheng promote it.

  • In Time Of War||

    Interesting. So all African-American actors and actresses are banned from making chicken commercials?
    Sounds...racist.

  • Rights-Minimalist Autocrat||

    Taken to its logical conclusion, KFC and Popeye's should ban black people from entering.

  • gaoxiaen||

    Check out Nando's Chicken commercials, especially Last Dictator Standing. The Muslim guy waiting for the sun to go down is pretty good, too. Probably blasphemy in Pakistan (but what isn't).

  • ||

    It gives me much pleasure that the 4$ from their customers goes to feed and house their libertarian CEO and non-union workers.

  • ||

    Should just be $$, not 4$

  • fish||

    I love the expression on "Dear Leaders" face though!

    "I pity the fool who won't eat "Whole Foods" high quality chicken!

  • gaoxiaen||

    Costco's is better. And cheaper.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    The sign outside the supermarket on Manhattan's Upper West Side, featuring an apparent caricature of Obama advertising an upcoming sale on whole organic chickens, outraged neighbor Woody Henderson.

    "There are certain things that have been used to put down black people — watermelon, fried chicken," he said.

    Watermelon? So I guess Gallagher and hickok45 are seething racists as well.

  • John||

    Gallagher isn't racist. He an insult to the entire human race, all races included.

  • robc||

    Which Gallagher?

  • mr simple||

    The black one. Is there any other?

  • gaoxiaen||

    Fuck you. I'm Irish.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    Why is this a putdown? Good fried chicken and watermelon are wonderful things.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Exactly. I never understood why liking them was supposed to be derogatory.

  • fish||

    Wasn't that the Little Rascals" protocol?

    Buckwheat could never go into the other kids homes to eat because, "His pappy brought home a chicken"!

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    I've wondered about that. Many white people (like myself) like both of these delicacies. How did they come to be associated with a particular race? Just goes to show the irrationality of racism.

  • Tonio||

    Or the irrationality of projecting racism where none actually exists.

  • Alan||

    Don't know about chicken and watermelon so much, but "soul food" is just "Southern food", for the most part.

    White southerners eat most of the same stuff, but it got associated with black people.

    That said, I know some black guys who love them some chicken.... There's a grain of truth to the stereotype.

  • gaoxiaen||

    My black buddy's mother always cooked soul food. Great stuff. She knew I was a starving college student and always gave my buddy food for me.

  • ||

    Speaking of - anyone have a paleo/Wheat Belly-friendly recipe for fried chickie? Or am I doomed to oven "frying" forever?

  • Killazontherun||

    Don't use eggs or milk in your batter. Use soda water instead if you like your chicken to be perfectly crispy.

  • ||

    The one main thing I can't use is flour (wheat flour, that is) - eggs and limited milk are OK for wheat belies.

  • sloopyinca||

    Crush up some corn flakes into the batter...not too small. It adds a nice dimension and a fair bit of extra crispy goodness.

  • ||

    No corn!

  • Chris Mallory||

    I used the rice flour for my wife's chicken. She said it was good.

  • Trespassers W||

    Would coconut flakes work? That sounds kind of tasty. Surely it's been tried.

  • sloopyinca||

    It's been tried and proven to fail. It just takes too damn long to fry up chicken for the coconut to not burn. It's great for shrimp and other quick-frying foods, but for chicken it's a no-go.

  • ||

    But coconut flour might work, though.

    Last time I tried to fry grain-free, the batter just fell straight to the bottom of the oil.

  • gaoxiaen||

    Tenderize, coat with egg, roll in cornflakes and baked. Very low-fat if you remove the skin.

  • niobiumstudio||

    Just southern pan fry it. Half inch of decent oil in a cast iron pan, a dusting in any flour mixed with spices, drop the chicken in and let it 1/2 cook on one side, turn it once, let it finish, and don't use a paper towel or cover them while letting the oil come off - just put them on a cooling rack. Best SF chicken you will ever have. Plain, simple, nice and crispy never soggy, and extra juicy. Just replace the normal wheat flour with rice flour or some other random flour.

  • Rasilio||

    Last weekend we made an Eggplant and Portabella Parmesian where we deep fried the Eggplant and Portabella first.

    we used Corn Starch, Eggs, and a Store Bought Gluten Free "Breadcrumb" mix and it came out quite well, I'd imagine that it would work just as well with Chicken.

    The basic process was to dredge in the corn starch, then dip in the eggs (also mixed with some milk), then coat with breadcrumbs (which I think were mostly corn but I'd have to get the exact brand we used from my wife) then dropped then in oil.

    The batter really was quite good (and the entire dish was to die for)

  • Harvard||

    [Last weekend we made an Eggplant and Portabella Parmesian..]

    Christ, there's no possum available where you live??

  • AlmightyJB||

    God Dammit! Now I want fried chicken and watermelon.

  • Brutus||

    Go to Gus's Fried Chicken in Memphis.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    My wife is black. She loves fried chicken. Her family loves fried chicken. Blacks love fried chicken. And shrimp. And steak. And cheeseburgers.

    We have a close friend who is Chinese. She loves fried chicken, too.

    I guess I'm pretty racist.

  • gaoxiaen||

    Why? You don't like fried chicken? Unpossible.

  • Zeb||

    So because a black caricature involves fried chicken, no black person can ever advertise not-fried chicken? OK.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Yeah, as I understand the stereotype, it doesn't involve organic, non-fried chicken. That stereotype is associated, not with blacks, but with...people on the West Side of NYC.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I'm certain I've seen black people in KFC and Popeyes ads before, with no controversy.

    I wonder what Woody would think if a fried chicken restaurant was hiring actors for its commercials and refused to hire any black actors.

  • SIV||

    I've been the only White person in a KFC or a Popeyes more times than I can count.
    Judging by the expression on some employees and customers I may have been the first White guy ever excepting MAYBE a cop or health inspector. Oh, you said ads.

  • Alan||

    KFC has lots of white customers, and Popeye's has some - but Church's Fried Chicken is like the Kiwi rugby team: All Blacks.

  • Loki||

    Hell the Popeye's spokesperson who appears in all their ads that I've ever seen is a black female Aunt Jamima look alike with a sterotypical black southern accent. As far as I know no one has ever complained.

    I think the real reason this one shitstack got annoyed is because it was Dear Leader. If the ad had just featured a generic black person, he probably wouldn't have given a shit.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    I think the real reason this one shitstack got annoyed is because it was Dear Leader he is a card carrying member of the society for the perpetually aggrieved.

    FIFY

  • ||

    From what I understand that's the actual CEO of Popeye's and she has an accent cause she's from New Orleans.

  • ||

    I love that Fried Chicken and Watermelon and Kool Aid have become inherently black. Fuck you, that's a Southern thing.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    Fuck you, that's a deliciousness thing!

  • ||

    microguyalso· Top Commenter (signed in using yahoo)
    No, they don't WANT to grow up. They use things like this as a club, a weapon, in which to beat people that disagree with their political beliefs. This is just a tactic they use, guilt. It's CHICKEN! Not FRIED chicken. You can bake it, you can grill it, you can smoke it, you can BBQ it... you can do a lot with a chicken. But since THEY are the "racists", the first thing that comes to THEIR head, is "FRIED chicken". They then transfer that guilt to us, by using the race card to beat us into submission and giving them everything they want (politically).
    Reply · 62 · · 2 hours ago

    How did this shockingly sane comment get in a local news story?

  • John||

    See Warty when you and I see that poster, we think "funny picture of Obama and ooh organic chicken". When she sees that poster she sees black people and a thousand years of white supremacy.

    But never forget, we are the ones who are racists and can't get over having a black President.

  • ||

    When I see a picture of Obama, I think "FUCK YOU, YOU SLEAZY FUCKING COCKSUCKER DIE DIE DIE!" But I might not be normal.

  • T||

    But I might not be normal

    Might? You think there's some wiggle room in that conclusion somwhere?

  • ||

    It's possible.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I don't even think it's that. He sees the picture as making fun of BO, and comes up with a way to interpret it as racist so he can use that as a justification to complain rather than just coming right out and saying he doesn't like them making fun of the president.

    Like I said, I've seen black people in ads for KFC and Popeyes before.

  • John||

    The spokesperson for Popeyes is a black woman.

  • Randian||

    Oh yeah that's right. I always forget that.

    It's almost like I view her as an American and a Louisianan first, you know.

  • John||

    What kind of a monster are you Randian?

  • ||

    I know, right? What a fuckhead for looking at that lady as a human bean!

  • $park¥||

    human bean

    Human bean? Like a black bean?

    RAAAACCCCIIIIISSSSSTTTTTTT!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Speaking of racism, I saw a can of Goya beans in the store the other day that had the word "Negros" on it.

  • ||

    *outraged face!*

  • Randian||

    The guy at El Vaquero asked if I wanted Arroz Negro! Can you believe that?

  • sloopyinca||

    Black rice? I've had Arroz con frijoles negros before but never Black Rice in a Mexican market or restaurant.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    You can usually find some in the dumpster behind the Mexican restaurant.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    Jesus, dude. You can't talk like that. That's INSANITY! What are you thinking by not making it a racial issue?

    Nice, though. My brother in law is famous for always using the "other" selection for race and filling in Human

  • gaoxiaen||

    I think the KKK members must obstain from fried chicken and watermelon. And chitlins. Old English 800 is okay, though.

  • Paul.||

    The sign outside the supermarket on Manhattan's Upper West Side, featuring an apparent caricature of Obama advertising an upcoming sale on whole organic chickens, outraged neighbor Woody Henderson

    Huh, I really liked him in Cheers.

  • DenverJay||

    No no, you're thinking about Harrison Ford, Woody Henderson is the guy that had Big Foot living with him.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Does anyone else think Biden is pulling a Claudius here? Feigning stupidity to make people think he's no threat?

  • Randian||

    Occam's says no.

  • sarcasmic||

    Is that what you think you are doing?

  • ||

    No.

  • John||

    No one could pretend to be that stupid for that long.

  • T||

    Even if it started out as pretense, by now it's ingrained behavior. We are what we repeatedly do, and all that.

  • T||

    Damn, I love Texas. It is absolutely legal to use deadly force to protect property. It's also legal to use deadly force to prevent people from fleeing with your property. So, yes, in Texas, you can shoot them as they are running away.

    Reference for those disinclined to take my word for it.

  • John||

    Damn straight. If you break into someone's home, you are fucking fair game. You forfeit your right to live until you are off their property. Burgling ought to be an extreme contact sport.

  • $park¥||

    Spoken like a true libertarian. Are you starting to come around to their team, John?

  • John||

    I have always been a radical about the castle doctrine. There is nothing specifically libertarian about that. Most conservatives are that way.

  • T||

    That's pretty much the attitude. You'll get nol pross'd 99 times out of 100 if you shoot a burglar here.

  • Killazontherun||

    I hate having to yell at the robbers, 'You turn right back around so I can shoot you in the face!' Okay, that might be the best part.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    I hear very few libertarians would actually do this, though.

  • ||

    I only shoot shipwreck survivors who are swimming toward my beach. Fucking freeloaders.

  • Killazontherun||

    You do hunt them down first, right?

  • John||

    Naw. It is more like that scene in Duck Dynasty were the old man and Uncle Si are shooting beavers. Warty uses a john boat and a shotgun.

  • fish||

    I only shoot shipwreck survivors who are swimming toward my beach. Fucking freeloaders.

    Well they're not freeloaders if you purposely cause their vessel to sink only to indulge your passion for hunting "the most dangerous game"!

  • ||

    Frank: Don't even joke about hunting no man.
    Dennis: Who's joking? I'm not joking.
    Frank: Oh yeah? Well, I was hunted once. I'd just came back from 'Nam. I was hitching through Oregon and some cop started harassing me. Next thing you know, I had a whole army of cops chasing me through the woods! I had to take 'em all out--it was a bloodbath!
    (everyone pauses awkwardly)
    Charlie: That's 'Rambo', dude.
    Frank: What?
    Charlie: You just described the plot of 'Rambo'.

  • Rabban||

    ASiP for the win!

  • ||

    Dude, thanks for this comment. It brought gales laughter to another dreary Seattle day. Fuck this city.

  • minarchist||

    Just head for the Fremont district and visit that statue of Lenin. It'll cheer you up.

  • SIV||

    Tulpical

  • T||

    I thought it was perfectly libertarain to respond to violations of the NAP with overwhelming force.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    So did I, but $park¥ had implied that I was basically a sociopath for saying I'd shoot a burglar and posited, I believe, that fewer than 10% of the people here would agree with my position on that.

  • $park¥||

    fewer than 10% of the people here would agree with my position on that.

    After some of the commenting going on yesterday, I'm willing to change that to 90%. No doubt about it, y'all are a mean bunch of bloodthirsty fuckers.

  • John||

    I am not blood thirsty. But if you break into my house, I have to assume you are there to do me or my wife harm. And in that case, it is nothing personal, but I am going to shoot you unless you start doing some very quick explaining.

  • $park¥||

    but I am going to shoot you unless you start doing some very quick explaining.

    If you're willing to give a person a chance to either explain or run away, then you're already ahead of most libertarians here. From what I've seen, most will just open fire as soon as they see someone in the open door.

  • John||

    I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't go down and confront someone unless I had to. That is too dangerous. Gun fights are not fun. What I would do, is call the cops and retreat to a room if I could. If you come through the door, I am shooting you and not losing a wink of sleep over it.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Most home invasions are 2-5 people who enter with overwhelming force. It's very likely that you won't have time to get everyone in to a saferoom, especially if you have kids scattered about in the house.

  • DenverJay||

    "Most home invasions are 5 or more cops"

    FIFY

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    From what I've seen, most will just open fire as soon as they see someone in the open door.

    Depends on how the door got opened. If it was opened by force, AND there is no reason to believe it's a cop or someone else who would have justification for doing so under certain circumstances, I don't see the problem with shooting. That might be the only chance you get to stop the attack.

  • John||

    I agree with Tulpa there. But that is a case of the guy forcing a confrontation on you.

  • $park¥||

    Depends on how the door got opened.

    Don't bring that nonsense around here. Trespassing is aggression, no matter how it's carried out.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Trespassing is aggression, no matter how it's carried out.

    Within natural rights libertarian dogma, that's true. As a utilitarian I think the dogma is incomplete.

  • gaoxiaen||

    You can tell they're cops by the masks and guns.

  • Brandon||

    From what I've seen, most will just open fire as soon as they see someone in the open door.

    Hey, the cleaning lady should know better than to get there 10 minutes before her usual time.

  • Brandon||

    I'd shoot a burglar, but if he was unarmed or not brandishing a weapon I would give him every chance to surrender first.

  • $park¥||

    I'd shoot a burglar, but if he was unarmed or not brandishing a weapon I would give him every chance to surrender first.

    That's what I said too. That position was quickly shot down by the violent wing of the party.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Details missing. If the burglar is not clearly fleeing, I would totally support shooting him/her to stop the attack. Once they're clearly running away, even with some of your property, it's debatable whether you should shoot (and the NAP provides no guidance). Certainly if they kidnapped someone from your house you can shoot.

  • $park¥||

    it's debatable whether you should shoot (and the NAP provides no guidance)

    Sure it does. According to the NAP, theft is aggression and therefore can be punished by death.

  • Generic Stranger||

    [citation needed]

  • $park¥||

    [citation needed]

    On what, that theft is aggression or that aggression is punishable by death?

    This seems like a reasonable citation for the former.

    For a citation of the latter, just spend some time reading the comments in H&R.

  • Generic Stranger||

    Funny, I've not read anyone suggesting that any violation of the NAP should equal automatic death in all cases.

  • Virginian||

    Another thing I think about is future effects. Say I get mugged. Except he's an idiot and I bat the gun away and run around the corner. He lets me go, but maybe he's thinking "Shit, that guy got away. Next time I should hit my target with something before he even knows I'm there." Or maybe just shoot him and take the wallet off the body. An acquaintance got her purse stolen, with all the things people usually carry in it, and I asked if her landlord had changed the locks yet. She gave me this puzzled look. She's a single woman, living alone, and someone stole her keys and wallet with her ID in it, and she didn't think to get the locks changed until I asked.

    The time to fight back against predators is when they're in front of you. Maybe confronting Mr Night Burglar and running him off will make him reconsider his career choice. Or maybe next time he hits a house he'll do so with some friends, and have them bring guns.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Understandable, but there are practical considerations that make such a rule infeasible. The main issue is that every exception to the murder statutes makes it harder to convict real murderers. If you make it OK to kill someone who is fleeing from your property, then it would be easy for someone to invite a person they wanted to kill onto their property and then shoot them there, claiming self defense when the cops show up. Limiting the right to kill in self-defense makes that scenario harder and harder to accomplish.

    The main problem I have with extreme libertarianism is that they assume that God, or some omniscient intelligence, is in charge or something, so no expansion of rights can ever be abused. Even religious people don't think God is in charge of prosecuting criminals.

  • Rights-Minimalist Autocrat||

    Even religious people don't think God is in charge of prosecuting criminals.

    Well, not until they're dead, anyway.

  • Velcro Bootstraps||

    This is my fear if my home ever gets broken into. I worry that if the "bad guy" gets away, he'll just come back later, or he'll still be in a position to harm others. I feel as though I'd almost have a moral duty to prevent this from happening again.

  • $park¥||

    Funny, I've not read anyone suggesting that any violation of the NAP should equal automatic death in all cases.

    Some commenters will weasel out of it by saying that even though they could kill someone for aggression, that doesn't mean they would. Other commenters flat out state that if someone broke into their house they would shoot or if someone stole from them they would shoot to kill. Night Elf Mohawk and Francisco d Antonia are two that have said the latter within the past few days. I believe NEM's answer was "better judged by twelve than carried by six."

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Killing anyone who steps onto your property without your permission is consistent with the NAP.

    Not killing anyone who does so is also consistent with the NAP.

  • $park¥||

    Killing anyone who steps onto your property without your permission is consistent with the NAP.

    And this is what makes the NAP the most perfect moral system. Or so I'm told.

  • SIV||

    Killing anyone who steps onto your property without your permission is consistent with the NAP.

    Trespass to land is often not necessarily aggression.

  • Rights-Minimalist Autocrat||

    Killing anyone who steps onto your property without your permission is consistent with the NAP.

    Why do libertarians hate Mormon missionaries?

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    Who doesn't?

  • Brandon||

    I'd shoot Sparky just to shut him up and stop him from changing his name every other week.

  • $park¥||

    I'd shoot Sparky just to shut him up and stop him from changing his name every other week.

    Hey now! I haven't changed my name in a long time, Brandon. If that's your REAL name.

    Trespass to land is often not necessarily aggression.

    Tell that to the people who say otherwise.

  • gaoxiaen||

    And maybe you'll get lucky and kill your wife.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    I hear very few libertarians would actually [shoot a burglar in the back because he is fleeing with your shit], though.

    I wouldn't. I have insurance. And a conscience. But if I catch a man (or woman) in my home, they are getting blasted the fuck up regardless of which direction they're facing.

  • Free Society||

    If Texas is the only state with these kinds of laws, then Texas is the only one doing it right. You are damn right I should be able to shoot someone make away with my property. Damn right I should be allowed to use any amount of force necessary to protect my property from harm. Just like I would kill to protect my life and liberty.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    I'm not sure of the specifics regarding Ohio and someone running away, but I see it this way.

    If I catch someone in, entering, or attempting to enter my home I'm going to shoot them. I have 2 large dogs and a welcome mat that says "there's nothing inside worth dying for". If they're dumb enough to enter anyway, I'm going to assume they mean me harm and harm them right back.

    If I see someone running away with my stuff, I'm going to let them go and call the cops. It's just stuff and it can be replaced. I don't want the hassle and crap that comes along with shooting someone if I don't need to.

  • Brandon||

    This seems much more reasonable than FS's post above.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    Thanks. I do try to live my life by using reason and logic. Strange concept in the world today, I know.

  • SIV||

    What if the "stuff" cost 1/4 of your life in labor?

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but that's why I have insurance on all my stuff. There is nothing inanimate in my home that can't be replaced.

  • John Galt||

    I apologize for the many times that I've claimed Joe Biden to be the dumbest man in America. What I meant to say is Joe Biden is absolutely the dumbest man in the Universe.

  • Killazontherun||

  • Killazontherun||

    Yup, hat's definitely rootin', tootin' Biden on the wall there.

    http://www.dopefish.com/images/mpdopefish.jpg

  • Generic Stranger||

    Gah! My eyes!

  • Raston Bot||

    Observable universe?

  • John Galt||

    Of course, the observable portion only. It would hardly be sound science to claim otherwise.

  • OldMexican||

    Gun Expert Joe Biden Advises His Wife To Illegally Discharge a Shotgun


    I don't understand why Biden is not telling his wife to use the Joe Salazar anti-assault whistle. I heard that it is better than using a gun to scare off invading, sex-hungry aliens.

  • Jordan||

    Or telling her to shit herself.

  • OldMexican||

    Or vomit.

    Or play possum.

  • fish||

    I think he and Jill like to keep their "special little games" to themselves.

  • John Galt||

    Or puff herself up.

    Or squirt a foul smelling liquid from her glands.

    Or stand up on her hind legs.

  • Killazontherun||

    has just fired two loads of shot in the air, where gravity will soon take control and bring them back down to Earth

    It has been my experience that shot coming back down to the ground doesn't even sting much, and for the same reason you can't flatten a car below you by dropping a penny from a building. Air friction, bitches!

  • Drake||

    Correct - unless she is blasting slugs in the air, it is unlikely that anyone will be harmed.

    What she is supposed to do next - standing there with an empty shotgun - is unclear.

    Biden really is a retard.

  • Generic Stranger||

    If its birdshot, sure. Buckshot or slugs will fuck you up, though.

  • Generic Stranger||

    And, to be clear, birdshot should never be used for home defense. It simply doesn't penetrate reliably enough. You'll make a bloody mess of someone, but it won't reliably stop someone intent on doing you in.

    Lead BB size shot is pretty much the smallest you can go, and it's borderline.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    But birdshot spreads out so you don't have to aim, and can't go through a sheet of drywall! [/myth]

  • Generic Stranger||

    Yeah...I never understood why anyone thinks that something that can't penetrate drywall would be great for defending yourself with. If it can't penetrate drywall, it can't penetrate the attacker, either.

  • Chris Mallory||

    According to the Box Of Truth, birdshot will penetrate two sheets of drywall.

  • Generic Stranger||

    Yeah, but I was talking about the people who use birdshot because they think it won't.

  • John Galt||

    There may be some truth in that box, but it's a little more complex than that.

    What thickness drywall? What size bird shot? Weight of the shot and powder loads? Barrel length? Type of choke or lack of? Muzzle velocity? Distance to target? And so on, and so forth.

    All factors must be taken into consideration when calculating terminal ballistics for a given round fired from a particular firearm.

    For example: A twelve gauge firing a 3" magnum #4 shot shell point blank at 1/2" drywall is going to penetrate a lot more than two sheets. On the other hand, a .410, un-choked, firing a much smaller size 12 shot at a range of 20 yards would likely bounce off the outer paper layer on the first sheet yielding .0" penetration.

  • Henry II||

    Shoot yourself in the face and you'll understand.

  • Brandon||

    Generally, making a bloody mess of someone is a good way to stop them even if they are intent on doing you in. Do you expect Jason Voorhees to invade your house?

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    No, but a meth-head high off his mind won't slow down much by just getting bloodied up. That's why you should use a heavier load. Even Jason Voorhees won't be fighting for long when his heart has more leaky holes than a hooker on nickel night.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    Even Jason Voorhees won't be fighting for long when his heart has more leaky holes than a hooker on nickel night he has a softball sized hole in his torso from the 00 Buck I just unloaded on his ass.

    FIFY

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    I like my imagery better.

  • Generic Stranger||

    With birdshot, pretty much all the damage is superficial. You've got a lot of little holes that make it look like the guy is hamburger, but it's only an inch or two deep. There generally isn't enough actual damage to stop someone intent on murdering your ass.

  • gaoxiaen||

    I think he would stop if you shot him in the face.

  • Henry II||

    why would it be bird shot in the shotgun? if the shotgun is kept loaded for home protection, you would use stronger shot. if it was meant to just be fired as an alarm to frighten someone, you would use blanks.

    bird shot would seem to only be appropriate for . . . birds.

  • OldMexican||

    The sergeant, who preferred not to be identified, said that Wilmington residents are also not allowed to shoot trespassers. "On your property you can't just shoot someone," he said. "You have to really feel that your life is being threatened."


    Yes, no ambiguities here. In Delaware, you can present feelings as evidence, in court.

    Probably only place on Earth, besides maybe Nepal

  • Henry II||

    Actually, this is the law in most, if not all, states, even "defend your ground" states.

    The general premise is that the person asserting self-defense must prove that a reasonable person in his or her shoes would believe that his or her [blank] is being unlawfully threatened.

    "[blank]" varies from state to state. I think most states are similar to Delaware where the use of the force must be proportional to the reasonably perceived threat - i.e. death or serious bodily harm. "Defend your castle" states would include "property" or "domicile" as well.

    That "reasonableness" is objective (supposedly) and not subjective. It is a similar standard used for rape, assault, etc.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Those "legal experts" need to go back to school. They don't know shit about the law. The wife of a sitting Vice President would never even be charged with "unlawful discharge inside the city limits" much less any of that other stuff.

    Fire at will, Mom!*

    *Since the Secret Service would be there to croak anybody who dast to trample the Second Lawn, the whole scenario is just silly.

  • DenverJay||

    What the hell did Will do?

  • Loki||

    Garey said that under Biden's scenario, Jill Biden could be charged with aggravated menacing, a felony, and reckless endangering in the first degree.

    But it's safe to say she wouldn't actually be charged. Afterall, rules are for little people.

    city residents are not allowed to fire guns on their property...

    "In Delaware you have to be in fear of your life to use deadly force," ...

    "You cannot use deadly force to protect property" in Delaware, added Garey.

    Fuck Delaware.

  • wingnutx||

  • Rasilio||

    $100,000 is an advertising blitz?

    That ought to get them a couple of ad slots on Facebook way outside of primetime

  • Brandon||

    You're not accounting for the discounts that will be flung their way when Obama's name is "unofficially" dropped.

  • wingnutx||

    Yeah, I'm wondering if a zero or two didn't get left off.

  • DenverJay||

    BTW, if I had to have an empty gun for defense, a 12 gauge is not a bad choice. Big chunk of metal and wood- could be useful even unloaded

  • Henry II||

    Would be more useful if they weren't trying to ban bayonets. LoL.

  • ThatSkepticGuy||

    "You don't need an AR-15. It's harder to aim, it's harder to use"

    And yet Biden and his likeminded shitheads never seem to consider this when demanding they be banned.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    STOP USING LOGIC AND REASONING!!!! Dammit, man. Don't you know facts are for pussies.

  • buybuydandavis||

    Biden opens his mouth and nonsense pours out.

    This is news?

  • aaaeagleone@me.com||

    "What about neighbor hood safety does 'GRINNING JOE' not understand, shotgun ammunition contains from one single slug to +20 pellets, now when you pull the trigger, and discharge said shotgun where there is no backstop those bullets are going to land somewhere and you would have a real and distinct possibility of injuring a innocent bystander, anyone with even a very small Modicum of common sense would know that a responsible gun owner would never-ever fire a round without having a backstop, Joe B, you are indeed a IDIOT/FOOL for this very UNSAFE suggestion. -:{"
    Give up commenting on anything that you have no knowedge of Mr. Vice President.

  • Harvard||

    Pretty much reduces Joe to mute.

  • Henry II||

    Hey, I am sure that he does this "all the time".

  • Henry II||

    LoL. Well, can't ever accuse him of failing to live up to his reputation as a blowhard.

  • Tahh||

    Maybe Joe Biden and Dick Cheney can run a PSA on gun safety.
    Then maybe us dumb Americans will really know how to use our firearms.

  • Faithful34||

    like Francisco explained I'm shocked that a single mom can earn $4886 in four weeks on the internet. did you look at this web link http://WWW.FLY38.COM

  • gaoxiaen||

    Francisco is a pimp, and he's counting gross receipts, before he takes his cut.

  • Alan Wright||

    This kind of snide nit-picking is not helpful. I'm referring to the article generally, but more specifically the comments.

    Per the article, "'There's nothing based on his scenario alone' indicating a reason to fear imminent death, he noted."

    For one, it's clear from the context that Joe Biden was not providing legal or even practical advice. He was speaking generally as to how a shotgun provides an adequate deterrent effect in the case of a home invasion, or at least relative to an AR-15.

    Biden also did not include any mention in his brief hypothetical about the facts which would demonstrate that Ms. Biden's use of a firearm was reasonable under the circumstances. But, nor did he mention that her fear was unreasonable because the noise outside was just a deer in the woods.

    However, Biden did say "Jill, if there's ever a problem..." That statement at least suggests the nature of the home invasion Biden speaking of. It's of a problematic kind. A deer in the woods is not a problem.

    All we need to do is understand what Joe Biden understands "a problem" to be. I don't think any reasonable person thinks Joe Biden's understanding of what "a problem" is to be a deer in the woods, the neighbors' children looking for a lost ball, girls selling cookies, or UPS making a delivery.

    So, I think a better response to Joe Biden's unsurprising vagueness is... wait for it... a teaching moment about state law standards of reasonable self-defense of your person and your property.

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