The Hutaree Arrest and Getting Tough on Terror From Left and Right

The indictment on the Hutaree "militia arrests" is out. From my read, even taking every word in it as gospel, it sounds like these guys were angry loudmouths who fantasized too much to someone who turned out to be a federal informant or agent, but who they thought was a potential comrade who might help them obtain some explosives.

I may be wrong on this, the government will have its opportunity to prove its case in court, and the defendents will have their opportunity to, well, defend themselves. (I have written and blogged in the past on the generally weak nature of the government's past highly publicized "domestic terror" busts.) It is way too early to decide exactly how much of a real threat to other people's lives and property these guys were.

Not if you are bloggers at DailyKos who are thrilled to see "sedition" being called by its true name, and appearing to presume that, well, the government wouldn't charge someone with something if they weren't guilty.

At Balloon Juice, they play a particularly dumb version of the "my opponents are hypocrites" game while lumping together everyone they think of as "on the right":

The indictment sounds pretty clear: we captured a bunch of religious fundamentalist extremists planning mass casualty attacks against America. Unlike, say, Jose Padilla or any of the clown car gangs whom Bush rounded up this team had the gear and the training to go operational (and kill a lot of people) within a month.

Rightwing antiterror doctrine clearly states that we must strip these “terrorists” (no such thing as alleged in the war on terror) naked and hang them in cold cages by the wrists with their arms tied behind their backs so that the tendons tear and the shoulder joint dislocates. We should waterboard them until they confess and give up their co-conspirators (the Inquisition found waterboarding almost 100% effective!). Without question these people should be held without any trial or access to habeas corpus petitions until the “war” against violent fundamentalist groups is over. At the very least we should shunt these guys into military tribunals where the rules have been rigged to ensure a conviction.

Of course Jonah Goldberg and Glenn Reynolds and Crittenden and Erickson and any other credentialed rightblogger will agree with what I just said. They have to.

I guess Balloon Juice is saying that, well, since these terrorists are on Goldberg and Reynolds' team, that they will defend them? Frankly, from their website's concerns and the general sense of their intellectual and cultural milieu I got from it, it would surprise the hell out of me if the Hutaree gave much of a damn about the vital importance of keeping Gitmo open, nor do the Jonah Goldberg/Glenn Reynolds right generally make much common cause with Christian apocalyptic warriors in the woods. But I am glad to see Balloon Juice is setting themselves up to be strong watchdogs for the Hutaree's procedural rights as this proceeds.

The Detroit News article (filled with good details on the specifics of the many raids that led to the arrests) has an interesting story spelling out that, whatever the Hutaree's crimes turn out to be, it would be wrong to smear the entire "militia movement" so-called with them:

Mike Lackomar, of Michiganmilitia.com, said...he heard from other militia members that the FBI targeted the Hutaree after its members made threats of violence against Islamic organizations.

"Last night and into today the FBI conducted a raid against homes belonging to the Hutaree. They are a religious cult. They are not part of our militia community," he said.....

One of the Hutaree members called a Michigan militia leader for assistance Saturday after federal agents had already began their raid, Lackomar said, but the militia member -- who is of Islamic decent and had heard about the threats -- declined to offer help. That Michigan militia leader is now working with federal officials to provide information on the Hutaree member for the investigation, Lackomar said Sunday.

"They are more of survivalist group and in an emergency they withdraw and stand their ground. They are actively training to be alongside Jesus," he said.

Anyone writing or thinking about how this is all going to play out as a cultural and political story should have under their belt Jesse Walker's excellent October 2009 Reason magazine feature on "The Paranoid Center."

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  • ||

    Even if it's as bad as they say, the crazies always go over the edge first. Doesn't discredit the rest.

    It happened that way in the American Revolution, actually. The Loyal Nine or the Sons of Liberty, whatever you want to call them, were firebrand revolutionaries and by 1776, after the adults had taken over, only John Hancock was left in anything like a responsible position.

    Then Washington, Jefferson and Franklin had taken over... That'll happen here too if this keeps getting bigger. The adults will take over...

    ...but the crazies always go over the edge first. Doesn't mean they're wrong about everything. That's always been the case. There is nothing new under the sun.

  • ||

    I would imagine many people in the British government and loyalist groups during the Revolutionary War characterized Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin as crazies, terrorists, and worse. I mean, they were treasonous nutjobs trying to overthrow the legitimate government and institute a form of government that couldn't possibly work, right?

  • ||

    You'd have a hard time characterizing them as crazies to the American people.

    Franklin was in London, I mean, how more of an insider could he have been?

    Nothing like the Loyal Nine. Thomas Paine was a revolutionary on wheels. The SOL were nuts. They were revolutionaries on a stick, who didn't have much else to offer. ...couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag. They were instigators--nothing more.

    ...nothing like Washington, Jefferson, Franklin.

  • ||

    Paine, Madison, and Jefferson denounced "Christ" as any kind of a divinity.

    The 'Hutaree' would be fucking idiots in any age of America.

  • dennis||

    It's pretty hilarious the way Glenn Beck has tried to rewrite history about the religious nature of the founding generation. I am no founding father fetishist, but to claim that their theological views were akin to modern day bible thumpers is just bad history.

  • ||

    I think you're probably right; I'm just not sure I understand why it matters.

  • ||

    Because the Beckerhead is trying to recast history - to 3 million Fox News gullibles who believe every lying syllable he utters.

    Much like the gullible here - like Episarch, ArtPOG etc

  • ||

    shriek's definition of gullible: not being ravingly insanely paranoid. Got it.

    Just because you're paranoid, shriek, doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

  • ||

    no. Rightwing theocrats like DeMint and Coberun need to die politically.

    Christian sharia is shit.

    You support shit.

  • OH no not this again||

    When did this site become christian?

    But Beck is trying to rewrite shit.

  • ||

    I understand this Glen Beck guy is apparently a conservative radio guy or something?

    I admit I've never listened to him or know anything about him or what he says.

    But right now? The president is telling the American people that they have an obligation to pay for each other's healthcare, whether they want to or not.

    ...so some joker on the radio tricking people into thinking our founders were religious is the least of my concerns.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Oh, gosh, you think I'm gullible? Then I must be. Thanks for telling me, shrike.

  • dennis||

    I don't find it relevant in any immediate sense, but I respect the concept of truth and would like those who publicly advance opposition to the state's latest schemes to make sure to keep their historical rhetoric grounded in an understanding of the past based in evidence, rather than something that adheres to a meta-narrative which casts notions of individual liberty as inevitably linked to Christianity. I don't think this narrative is defensible.

  • cynical||

    It matters ideologically. First it was the socialists masquerading as liberals, now it's the conservatives. I think a lot of Americans are actually liberal, but there's no party that really represents that strain of our culture very well without mixing in a bunch of crap that's anathema to the enlightenment.

    Besides, it's dangerous, this mythopoeia. It's a tool of political religions, not freethinkers and skeptics. We should be focusing on truth and rationality, no matter how unpleasant it can be to look at our past in the harsh light of modernity.

  • MJ||

    Jefferson's religious views were...complicatedm but to say heviews were predominant among the founders is to wrong in the other direction.

  • dennis||

    I never claimed they were. But bible thumpery didn't rear its ugly head in a big way post 1776 until the ironically named "Great Awakening," and even that sort of religion differed strongly from the modern form of fundamentalism. I should say something about the actual post, so I guess I'll throw out there that it seems like statists are trying to replicate the aftermath of the OKC bombing. Anti-government sentiment was effectively quashed once disliking the state could be depicted as inherently racist or violent or whatever. The narrative didn't fit together then and it doesn't work now.

  • robc||

    even that sort of religion differed strongly from the modern form of fundamentalism.

    Considering The Fundamentals was published between 1910 and 1915, it would be hard for that not to be true.

  • dennis||

    I didn't want to use the term "bible thumper" again, instead of "fundamentalist" I should have used "bible brigade."

  • ||

    'Until the "Great Awakening"'? That happened from about 1730 to the 1750s, so not very post 1776 at all. And when you refer to modern fundamentalism, are you referring to the self-described fundamentalists, who took an anti-intellectual turn in the first half of the 20th century and now exert almost no cultural or political influence, or using it as a derogatory epithet for modern evangelicals, which is a whole other complicated matter?

  • dennis||

    I guess I could have specified "second great awakening." As for your question, I admit it is the latter.

  • dennis||

    I just assumed that by indicating post 1776, the reader would assume I was referring to the second great awakening, I suppose I should have been more precise as I was criticizing Beck for his lack of historical grounding.

  • ||

    At any rate, since you brought up the Great Awakening, and just to drag this back to the original topic, I think it's safe to conclude that the Hutaree (Did they make that word up???) lack the intellectual fortitude to make it through so much as a sentence of Jonathan Edwards without total befuddlement.

  • ||

    You are completely incorrect, and obviously historically ignorant. The Great Awakening began in the 1730's, it was not post 1776. Not to mention that in the 1800's a good many historians saw the Great Awakening as a precursor to the Revolutionary War. It's painfully obvious you've never actually read or studied this time period whatsoever. Instead you are too busy running your mouth about fundamentalists with nary an idea of what you speak.
    By the way, Thomas Jefferson went to Sunday services each Sunday, and did so at the House of Representatives where services were done each week by a different sect. Holy shit, what a fundamentalist who didn't understand the separation of church and state!

  • dennis||

    There was a second great awakening that did occur between 1820 and 1840, but you're obviously too ignorant of American history to grasp that (Joyce Appleby has discussed much of this in her writings.) I don't fetishize Jefferson, my point was that attempts to make him into a Charlie Church are even more inaccurate than attempts to paint him as a raving atheist. Jefferson, like any politician, knew how to make himself appear politically correct. Yes, I actually do have some training in American religious history. I don't care about the "separation of church and state" thing as it relates to the founding fathers, my whole point was that Beck was trying to reorganize American symbolism to fit a comfortable meta-narrative. Before you call someone out about historical ignorance, try to be more civil, lest you appear foolish.

  • ||

    His moral doctrines, relating to kindred & friends, were more pure & perfect than those of the most correct of the philosophers, and greatly more so than those of the Jews; and they went far beyond both in inculcating universal philanthropy, not only to kindred and friends, to neighbors and countrymen, but to all mankind, gathering all into one family, under the bonds of love, charity, peace, common wants and common aids. A development of this head will evince the peculiar superiority of the system of Jesus over all others. - Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus, Compared with Those of Others, Thomas Jefferson, 1803

  • Ted S.||

    It's pretty hilarious the way Glenn Beck has tried to rewrite history about the religious nature of the founding generation.

    Well, the Founding Fathers were Mormons. Glenn Beck had them vicariously baptized.

  • ||

    Your so wrong and terribly misinformed Dennis. Its pretty hilarious when people like yourself try and change history.

  • dennis||

    Please fill me in without resorting ot selected quotes pulled out of context (which is a game both sides can play.) I await enlightenment.

  • ew_keane||

    Why do you write that?
    Why do you insist on being vulgar and common?
    "Fucking idiots", indeed.

  • alan||

    To be honest, I have never heard of balloonjuice before. What are their credentials that I would not dismiss them outright as another set of ill informed yahoos?

  • ||

    One of the writers from Balloon Juice, John Cole was disgruntled with the Democratic Party and was somewhat of a Rightwinger but saw the light sort of the same fashion of blogger Charles Johnson from LGF - in light of the wingnuttery and sheer looneyness of the bloggers on the Right with the run up to the election and after Obama was elected. Oh and also after the Right wing bloggers marched in lockstep to not necessarily support McCain (remember he's McShamnesty)but to all take a swan dive into that kool-aid fountain maintained by Palin, the dimwit of the GOP.

  • ||

    The left is just so fucking desperate for a return to the 90's rightwing domestic terrorist meme that it's embarrassing. It's actually kind of amazing how invested they are in it.

  • Warty||

    I'm pretty surprised that they haven't wet their pants more over the increase in gun sales. Liberals do love to wet pants, especially their own.

  • ||

    I was watching TV yesterday and there was an ad from Henry for their rifles. On regular TV. I've never seen that before. The pants-wetters were never really about fear, anyway; they were about control. They don't like the idea of the rabble being allowed to have guns.

  • Warty||

    Well, obviously. Especially not christfags.

  • ||

    Christfags are the WORST.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Ha ha, you guys are cracking me up.

  • ||

    What, are you some kind of christfag or something?

  • ||

    Don't ridicule your savior!

    The Koch boys may go angry.

  • ||

    The KOCHTOPUS? Hmm, methinks this may be Mr. Kelly, sans links and his ridiculous disclaimer.

    Same paranoid pathology though.

    Venlafexine and lithium much Shrike?

  • ew_keane||

    The cause of pants-wetting is because
    THE NEO-PROGRESSIVES ARE INTELLECTUALY BANKRUPT!
    They have been flogging away at social reform for the past 90 years, but there exists OPPOSITION to their meddlesome schemes. The are 'commoners' who want nothing to do with their top down society of philosopher/kings.
    They have nothing left but sophmoric insults.
    Get it? NO PLATONIC STATE.

  • Ted S.||

    Is that the commercial where they guy has everything not made in America removed from his house, and the gun is the only thing remaining?

  • ||

    I have a pretty hard time getting past the scarequoted "Christian Militia" terminology without laughing.

    I suspect these guys are a bunch of goofballs.

  • ||

    Keep your head in the sand then.

    These nutjobs are everywhere. Right-wing terror jackasses bent on Christ's authority - full obedience to Christian sharia and states "rights".

    They want Genesis taught in schools over Darwin and forced prayer.

    You are a dhimmi servant - obligated to suffer under these fucking monsters - not me.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Ha ha, OK, shrike.

  • ||

    Christian Sharia.......

    You go supine.

    I fight.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Do the voices tell you to fight?

  • ||

    Go, keyboard warrior!

  • ||

    Blogging for america in the culture war. Truly a hero our shriek.

  • ||

    I don't like Christ Fags who deprive our country of a realistic view of our founders secularism.

  • fish||

    Take a breath and go back to jerking off over "Cops" reruns!

  • ||

    Wha... hey guys, what happened to my realistic view of our founders secularism? It was right here!

    Curse you, Christ Fags!

  • christfag||

    Bwa ha ha!

    *twirls moustache*

  • ||

    WIN WIN WIN WIN WIN

  • zoltan||

    I think you've got the wrong religion.

  • ||

    Christian/Muslim sharia...

    Same shit.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    It's been awhile since they were similar.

  • ||

    The low-info Christian/Muslim are the same.

    Look at a "red" state - like Mississippi or Alabama..... very conservative.

    Look at a "red" country like Saudi Arabia....

    You eat the same conservative shit.

    Do you hear it?

    SAME CONSERVATIVE SHIT.

    Enjoy your GOP death.

  • ||

    You really should cut back on the Arthur Janov, shriek.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    I think you may have me confused for someone else. Northern Alabama is nothing like Saudi Arabia, for what it's worth.

  • ||

    Are you kidding?

    Judge Roy Moore wants your innocent boy asshole!

  • ||

    Shriek, you are on fire today. And by that I mean I wouldn't be surprised if you were actually on fire.

  • ||

    Ha!

    Excellent work dude.

  • TimeBot||

    Judge Roy Moore or Barak Obama, who would make the better president?

    Wait. I know most of you have never heard of this guy Obama, but he is a legislator in the Illinois State Capital representing the South side of Chicago and he has a background as a community organizer.

    I know, I could have pointed at a name out of a random phone book and had a better chance of selecting the next president than someone with no credentials like executive experience going in to the next race.

    Oh, wait, this is not 2004? So, you people already know. Sorry, I was screwing with you.

  • cynical||

    That's weird, as soon as he got elected Senator I knew he was on a fast track to the presidency.

  • Apostate Jew||

    All the Alabamans I know are from LA. Nice people, most of them.

  • Warty||

    FUCKING RHOEMITES

  • wingnutx||

    I've been to both Mississippi and Saudi Arabia.

    I witnessed firsthand how the heathen crackers let their women drive, sell pork an alcohol, and don't even stop all commerce 5 times a day for prayer.

    They are truly doing it wrong.

  • ||

    Ye seek out minor differences!

    In South Carolina/Arabia they don't allow pork and all women must cotton to the same discount mall!

  • JB||

    Abortion...it's for Democrats. And for even more retarded fetuses like shrike.

  • ||

    In South, by God, Carolina, pork barbeque reigns supreme, and most citizens are 21 before they learn damn Yankee is actually two words.

  • ||

    Glad I'm not the only one around here with such first-hand experience.

  • ||

    There is about as much chance of these people taking over as there is of Al Qaeda conquoring the US and forcing us all to convert to Islam at the point of a sword.

  • WTF||

    These nutjobs are everywhere

    Apparently.

  • mediageek||

    Judging by the videos present on the Hutaree YouTube page, their a bunch of laughable clown shoes wannabes who get together once in awhile to go play make-believe Army in the woods. If you're scared of these people, you're a pussy.

  • mediageek||

    Sigh. They're, not their.

  • ew_keane||

    No more than any other.

  • ||

    It's actually kind of amazing how invested they are in it.

    It's fucking creeping me out. Sometimes it seems as if the lefties want some dumbass to take a shot (unsuccessfully, of course) at the Presidential Suit, just so they can bring the hammer down on the rightwing gun nut fringe.

  • ||

    Oh, I agree. It would be a perfect opportunity to crush that portion of their enemies.

  • JB||

    Perfect opportunity for them to try...

    ...and lose.

  • Brett L||

    What you mean sometimes, Kemosabe? They get moist just thinking about being on the righteous tail of the spear when the wrong-thinking finally get theirs.

  • boomshanka||

    And that right wingers want another Waco or Ruby Ridge just justify for their calls for revolution (oh yeah, metaphorically of course).

  • Warty||

    "A president...I mean, why not shoot a president?"

  • WTF||

    Better watch out, there English Bob, or Gene Hackman will kick the shit out of you again.

  • cynical||

    They'd better hurry up -- he'll have to get shot on April 2nd so the docs can revive him for Easter.

    (But really, I think the progs would be fine with martyring him. It's a necessary part of the messiah ur-myth. I dunno how the speaker for TOTUS feels about that, though.)

  • boomshanka||

    "I guess Balloon Juice is saying that, well, since these terrorists are on Goldberg and Reynolds' team, that they will defend them?"

    I think you're missing the point, discussed at Balloon Juice and by many others, that religious motivated threats or acts of violence are deemed terrorist when done by Muslims or people of color, requiring that the gov't deem them enemy combatants and use every resource at their disposal including indefinite detention and "enhanced interrogation". When done by white Christians, it's just the inevitable result of frustration brought on by Obama's Marxist takeover, or McCarthys of the world just have no opinion on the matter.

    See

  • boomshanka||

    See AJ Stack

  • Brett L||

    Yeah. Make sure to elide citizenship from your discussion. Or being actually in posession of explosives.

  • boomshanka||

    The Balloon Juice quote mentions Jose Padilla, but various idiots suckered into plots by federal informants had citizenship as well.

  • Dan||

    I don't mean to let facts get in the way of a good rant, but Reynolds was opposed to designating Padilla (or any other US citizen) as an "enemy combatant". As he quite sensibly pointed out, if you give the government the power to jail its own citizens without trial, the power can be abused to silence domestic political opponents.

    Also, I'd like to know where you heard Jonah Goldberg excusing "white Christians" for their terrorist acts. Particularly since Goldberg's Jewish, and would have had no place in a Hutaree-run America.

  • ||

    Well, I've heard that if they bring a knife to a fight, you bring a gun, and then you reload...

    Wait, I'm confused.

  • ||

    Yeah, I wouldn't put it past them to use the ol' agent provocateur.

    In fact, I'd be surprised if they didn't use the ol' agent provocateur.

  • wingnutx||

    Agent provocateur?

    Sign me up.

  • ||

    I'll be in my bunk

  • ||

    #1 with a bullet on the provocateurness scale.

  • ||

    All that and The Hives too!

  • Jeepers||

    I think, I'm a lesbian;-)

  • ||

    Not to be skeptical or anything about our (currently Democrat-controlled) government's motives, but I'd be interested to know how long they've been shadowing this group, and exactly what it was that made them move in now.

    And who ordered it.

  • boomshanka||

    From the Detroit News:

    "Lackomar said he heard from other militia members that the FBI targeted the Hutaree after its members made threats of violence against Islamic organizations."

  • fish||

    Sounds like somebody will be asking for more money this appropriations cycle!

  • ||

    These nutjobs are everywhere. Right-wing terror jackasses bent on Christ's authority - full obedience to Christian sharia and states "rights".

    Of course they are, Shriek. Ooga Booga.

    Scatter crumpled newspapers on the floor, and put a chair in front of that closet door before you go to sleep.

  • ||

    Hey - I met a half dozen "10thers" yesterday.

    I know your code.

    "Lets crush those evolutionists/atheists!"

  • Jeffersonian||

    Arm yourself, Shriek!!!

  • ||

    I guess every administration needs an Al Qaeda now?!

    If this turns out to be the real thing, I'll be interested to see how many on the left who were all against warrantless wire taps will suddenly be ambivalent now.

    How many in the Dubya Cult will suddenly realize they're against warrentless wire taps now?

    And how much you wanna bet neither bunch will learn a damn thing from any of this either?

  • ||

    "How many in the Dubya Cult will suddenly realize they're against warrentless wire taps now?"

    Actually, I wonder, did John Yoo write any memos about whether it's okay to physically discomfort "illegal combatant" militia members fighting out of uniform? ...so long as it wasn't sufficiently extreme enough to constitute "torture"?

    Because, you know, what about the ticking time bomb scenario?!

    *tick-tock*

    Surely there must be a stray Bush Administration supporter who can explain to me why it's okay to waterboard some "illegal combatants" and not others?

  • ||

    Well, let's start with the fact that these illegal combatants were US CITIZENS, where the illegal combatants in Gitmo ARE NOT. That's what the law calls a "bright line".

  • Pope Jimbo||

    Exactly. Both sides will completely flip flop and call the other a hypocrite for changing sides.

    If balloonjuice thinks that Jonah Goldberg and Glen Reynolds are obligated to call for waterboarding and torture of these guys if they want to be consistent, doesn't that also mean that balloonjuice and the lefty bloggers are obligated to defend these militia members?

  • boomshanka||

    Defend them how? I'm pretty sure they would defend Hutarees' constitutional rights as citizens, if that what you mean. That would be consistent with their prior writings, and I presume the staff here at Reason would agree with them.

  • Pope Jimbo||

    Boom,

    Exactly what I meant. It would be great if they did defend this group's rights and question the government's motives. Consistent and correct (in my opinion).

    If you read the linked articles though, you can't help but see that the lefty bloggers are tickled pink that the government locked up some people who happened to be on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

    I haven't seen anyone on the left wring their hands wondering what we have done to make these religious loons hate us so.

    If the lefty bloggers start throwing a lot of doubt toward the FBI and questions their motives for arresting these dudes, I'll be happy to apologize.

  • ||

    but don't we support waterboarding these guys? after all they are conspiracy theorists...and what is worse than that Moynihan?

  • wackyjack||

    I hate making these points, because I really hate these assholes.

    But they haven't done anything but plan. Which is how we nailed quite a few Gitmo residents. But the key difference is that there isn't some global Militia/White Power organization. Hell, these guys can't get along for ten minutes.

    There's a reason that there hasn't been an attack by one of these groups - they really can't.

    As much as shrike wants to conflate these sheepfuckers (that the Left sees around every corner) with the goatfuckers (that the Right sees around every corner), only one has proven to be capable of action.

    And even though they might want their own theocracy over here, they don't have it. They don't control the culture and society at large. Which is why they remain a small group of committed and dangerous assholes.

  • ||

    But if one is not a Christ-faggot then why are you a conservative?

    The top capitalist are all liberal!!

    I don't get the Christo-Capitalist FAKE connection!

    Ok- that Christo-shyster in Houston - Osteen?

    He is obviously a criminal.

    Fags for Christ!

    A recurrent theme!!!!!

  • wackyjack||

    Heh. Not even close, but I appreciate the effort.

  • fish||

    This rant would make so much more sense if you just admitted the minister touched you on the pee-pee!

  • ||

    I am sorry to despoil your post - It was actually reasonable.

    I am one against many that the state presides agin' me!

  • ew_keane||

    You neo-progressives sweat bullets over theocracy, a CONSPIRACY THEORY OF THE LEFT.
    And still with the crude slander.
    Intellectual bankruptcy, no doubt.

  • cynical||

    IMCO, a lot of the so-called Muslim terrorist cells were pretty just a bunch of angry, radical young males without any real plans. It probably took at least a nudge from the feds (if not a plausible plan and all the necessary hardware) to get them to actually do something.

    The only real difference between Obama's patsies and Bush's patsies is the particular brand of theism they want to shove down our throats via mass murder.

    I agree with those who think it will be interesting (and depressing) to watch the rhetorical flip flops from the usual suspects regarding this latest episode of security theater. At least maybe lefties will remember where they left their balls when it comes to opposing violent theocrats.

  • Dan||

    What I don't get is why so many people are assuming conservatives will be sympathetic to the Hutaree crowd and automatically want to defend them. Certainly there will be people on the right who sympathize with them, just like there were people on the left who sympathized with the 9/11 attacks. But that's the fringe. That's not how normal members of the left and right act.

  • Brett L||

    Yeah, they'd never appoint a 9/11 Truther to White House job... Unless he was a green.

  • cynical||

    Truthers don't sympathize with the murder of thousands americans, they just happen to consist of the 300 people that watched the pilot of The Lone Gunmen.

    Maybe you're thinking of Ward Churchill, but I don't know of a movement sharing his name or views.

  • ||

    "What I don't get is why so many people are assuming conservatives will be sympathetic to the Hutaree crowd and automatically want to defend them."

    I have been operating under a working theory since the Bush the Lesser Administration which holds that the opposite ends of the political spectrum strive to become the cartoonish characterizations their opponents make them out to be.

    If Obama's supporters say this is who they're opponents are, then this is what their opponents will become.

    It's just a working theory, but I guess we'll see.

  • ¢||

    Sometimes it seems as if the lefties want some dumbass to take a shot at the Presidential Suit,

    Sometimes?

    Somewhere between a shockingly high percentage and all of mainstream Democrats' pre-election wishes for his victory took the form of assassination fantasies. "But I worry," etc., of course.

    (unsuccessfully, of course)

    They weren't assassination attempt fantasies. He got dead. The too-perfect-for-this-world storyline requires it.

    The hammer doesn't, but it's not only about that. His other fans are just plain nuts.

  • TXLimey||

    Well, they may have wanted him martyred, but a lot of them expected him to come back after 3 days.

  • Jesus Christ 3 day deal™||

    Tx Limey, do you need another 10yr anniversary tornado in Fort Worth today?

  • ||

    See that's the thing, man. Most lefties are fundamentally uncomfortable with democracy. They want revolutions. In a revolution, you get to line your enemies up against a wall and shoot them. It's no fun if your guy gets *elected* and you have to get along with your class enemies afterwards. There's always the possibility they could win the next time. In a real revolution, you have a nice thorough bloodbath and kill them all off or drive them into hiding until your total dominance is assured.
    They all fantasize about someone taking a shot at Obama, because that would give them an excuse to make an example of someone, which they are just lusting to do. It's just not a revolution, until the blood starts flowing.

  • WTF||

    Interesting observation. I'm afraid you might be right on with your summation of the situation.

  • cynical||

    Ordinarily, maybe.

    Most lefties are pretty comfortable with democracy right now, because they won on a platform of not running as members of Bush's party, which means everyone loves them, they were always right the whole time and now everyone admits it and they win forever and if you don't like it you must hate democracy and puppies.

    It's Jefferson-quoters on the right that are throwing out the "soon, the time will come to start tossing the DMV workers in mass graves for making us wait in line and pay taxes" rhetoric.

  • ||

    They want Genesis taught in schools over Darwin and forced prayer.

    I don't give a shit what the rabble teach their children. I just want them to keep their grubby paws out of my pocket.

  • ||

    People who are more than willing to try to "understand" Islamic terrorism, and tie it to the actions of the evil oppressive imperialistic US government, somehow seem congitively incapable of "understanding" Americans from the opposite political party, or how those people might be inflames by the actions of an oppressive US federal government.

  • Fluffy||

    Not me, baby doll.

    I would probably find all of these freaks to be lower than dog shit - but I understand their anger 100%.

  • ew_keane||

    Your comment is insincere, stereotypical condisending neo-progressive sleaze.
    Pardon me, but your inhumanity is showing.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    ?????

    ed: ---->condescending

  • alan||

    Order of the threads, peeps involved, subject matter, man I got a familiar sense of the Déja vu.

  • ||

    What I think is interesting is that the Chicago Tribune is reporting that one of the guys arrested (who was actually nabbed visiting his ex in the Chicago suburbs) claims he was misidentified and not actually the guy they're looking for. The judge subsequently ordered a hearing to determine whether he's the guy they're looking for on Wednesday. How embarrassing would that be if they arrested the wrong damn guy? Not surprising, but embarrassing nonetheless.

  • Tman||

    The only domestic terrorist attack in this country in the last 50 years that could arguably be related as from the "religious right" is obviously Oklahoma. But even then you have to strain credibility to argue that McVeigh wasn't anything but a freak who really didn't represent anyone, either left or right.

    Then you have actual terrorists like Islamic jihadists who are quite clear as to their intentions, and leave video confessions to confirm it. They aren't from the left or right. You have the occasional nut-job who loses it like the Alabama professor or that guy who got picked up for threatening Cantor, or the IRS plane bomber, all of whom espoused leftist mantras.

    I'm not afraid of the the right or the left. I'm afraid of the government taking too much power, and I'm afraid that the Islamist turds are still trying to improve upon 9/11.

    These other retards are simply not worth fussing about and I can't see why anyone besides the FBI (who are doing what they are supposed to do) should be using these arrests as examples of anything remotely related to our current all to real problems.

  • ||

    "A president...I mean, why not shoot a president?"

    A king, however, should be killed with a blade. And then torn asunder by teams of oxen.

    It's a matter of respect for the office.

  • ||

    I remember that quote. And I remember, I think, that it was said by English Bob on the 4th of July.

    ...but I can't for the life of me remember the name of that movie.

  • Ben P.||

    Clint Eastwood's 'Unforgiven'

  • wackyjack||

    Nay. A king should be gored by war elephants. It's why I always play Regicide as the Persians.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    I like the way you think, wackyjack.

  • wackyjack||

    Can I just take a moment to discuss the absolute asshattery of the trebuchets?

    I can just see those douches with their Ed Hardy tattoos talking shit about how many castles they razed, and how they launch precision strikes at infrastructure. Fuck. That. Shit.

    I send one lowly militia and he can wreck their day. But the worst thing is that I have to send a raiding party to deal with those weak assholes instead of spending time lining up actual battles.

    /rant

  • ||

    Ken- it was in Unforgiven.

  • ||

    Man oh man!! I spent the most wonderful afternoon in a little tete-a-tete with a Philosophy grad student. He reminded me so much of a Chony/Shriek clone.

    I finally let him off the hook, because tears were starting to leak from my monitor, and I feared an electrical short.

    If I were Catholic, I would owe the church a few Novenas.

    I mean, can you imagine the synaptic overload involved in the realization that you just wasted 6 years and $100K or so, learning little more than to regurgitate post-modernistic homilies that mean NOTHING?!? OMG, the delicious salty tears.

  • OH no not this again||

    I don't get this article. In the first paragraph, he tries to hard to make these guys seem phony, but they did try to obtain explosives. Well that's a pretty dumb thing to do.

    People are acting really stupid right now, sorry, but it's true. THe rhetoric going around is pretty overblown, your not helping anyone.

  • ||

    If the far-left weren't such humorless squid, they would realize that the vast majority of us KEED when we say that shit.

    As that fuckstick Maher is fond of saying, we kid because we love.

  • dennis||

    he stole that from Krusty the Klown

  • ||

    He stole his whole act from Krusty.

  • ||

    Yeah, if only the Tea Baggers would stop being so fanatical about their beliefs. After all, when THEY had power, they were just like Hitler and the Nazis. We all longed for someone to assassinate Bush. Thank God Obama has put an end to America's global reign of terror.

  • Jeffersonian||

    Heh...I read on their site that they cite Matthew 25 as their foundation in Scripture. I just had an Obamanaut quote me Matthew 25 last night to justify Obamacare.

    Satan can cite Scripture to his ends, no?

  • Jeffersonian||

    Fags for Christ!

    Have we drifted into a discussion of the Episcopal Church, somehow?

  • ||

    Allow me to extrapolate a few things from my own personal beliefs and the piss-poor quality of info from the news stories.

    The only Biblically-based thing the news story mentioned was that they were worried about the Anti-christ.

    Well last I checked the Anti-christ was not expected to show up in Detroit or Michigan.

    The only other religiously-themed thing is that they were planning something against Muslims.

    Over the past decade, there has been a new thinking regarding the End Time , in Christian circles.. and it calls for gettign rid of the notions of European Antichrist,and Roman Empire or anything to do with the West at all.

    Instead you have an Islamic Antichrist , coming from the empire that destroyed the Roman Empire.. which was the Islamic Caliphate which ended in 1924.

    The Antichrist comes from a reestablished Caliiphate.. and is regarded by the Muslims as their Messiah.

    In accordance with Islamic eschatology, the Muslims launch a global conquest / jihad so that they could fullfil Allah's command to convert the world to Islam.

    With an Islamic-viewpoint, all of the Bible's prophecies can more or less be read as-close-to-literal as possible.

    So i'm suspecting that these guys had that view

    And that they view the various Islamic paramilitary camps that are all over rural USA to be security threats and that they were planing soemthing regarding those.

    But what do I know.

  • ||

    WEEELLL, if you're believing the anti-christ will be a Muslim and you live in Michigan, looking in Detroit makes a hellava lot of sense actually.

  • ||

    I forgot that Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana were part of the Confederacy. Southerners are so crazy. Bad Southerners, bad.

  • meatwad||

    the various Islamic paramilitary camps that are all over rural USA

    do whut now?

  • Pope Jimbo||

    What if these Huts had been planning on driving down to Texas with their explosives and blowing up W?

    Think of the confusion in the blogosphere (both left and right - H&R would remain neutrally dysfunctional as usual) with that story.

    Lefties would be condemning the militia aspect, but would grudgingly admire their objective.

    Righties would love the guns and local militia, but would be incensed at the lack of love for George W.

    The media would also be totally confused by a story that didn't fit neatly into the Right/Left universe.

  • ||

    Jihadi Training Compounds, U.S.A. – by Ryan Mauro

    http://frontpagemag.com/2009/1.....yan-mauro/

    A battle in the war against radical Islam in Detroit was briefly waged on October 28 when the FBI engaged in a deadly shootout with an extremist imam refusing to be arrested. The imam was a leader in “Ummah,” meaning “the brotherhood,” a group said to consist of mostly African-Americans, many of whom converted in prison. This group isn’t the only one trying to create an Islamic state within the borders of the U.S., and this shoot-out should be expected, unfortunately, to be a sign of more violent conflict coming down the line in this country with Islamic militant groups.

    The gunfire began when the FBI tried to arrest Imam Luqman Ameen Abdullah, whose original name was Christopher Thomas, for his involvement in a crime ring along with followers of his. Abdullah violently resisted, and managed to shoot and kill one of the FBI’s dogs before falling to gunfire. The spiritual leader of Ummah is Jamil Abdullah al-Amin, a former Black Panther who is in jail for killing two police officers in Georgia that tried to arrest him. To Abdullah, he was just following in his leader’s footsteps and carrying out the “offensive jihad” against the U.S. government he had long preached about.

    The government also indicted 11 of Abdullah’s followers on charges including illegal possession and sale of firearms, conspiracy and theft of interstate shipments, mail fraud to obtain the proceeds of arson, and tampering with vehicle identification numbers. Some fled to Canada, including Abdullah’s oldest son, who was arrested in Ontario. His son trained about 60 youth in martial arts at the mosque and was part of what was called the “Sura team,” a group that carried guns to protect the mosque.

    Martial arts instruction isn’t the only form of paramilitary training that Ummah gave its members. The FBI affidavit said that “many” of the followers were armed and were encouraged to have guns. Some of the members were provided with firearms training.

    The group is very similar to Jamaat ul-Fuqra, a group led by Sheikh Mubarak Ali Gilani, a radical cleric based in Pakistan. The group has a branch in North America called “Muslims of the Americas” with dozens of sites and several closed-off communities in rural areas used as paramilitary training sites, some as large as 70 acres. Like Ummah, the group is almost entirely African-American, has many prison converts, many of its members engage in criminal activity, and is actively trying to create miniature Islamic states inside the U.S.

    Jamaat ul-Fuqra seems to share everything in common with Ummah, although no reports have come out to show that Muslims of America-affiliated mosques and communities are explicitly calling for war against the U.S. government. However, few, if any reports came out before the Detroit shootout about the Ummah’s preaching of jihad, either. The close parallels warrant an investigation by the FBI into whether Ummah has ties to Jamaat ul-Fuqra, given their common objective, type of recruits, and desire for their followers to receive guerilla warfare training. “Muslims of America” compounds would seem to be the natural destination of Ummah members seeking such instruction and camaraderie.

    There is no evidence out of a link yet, but at this early stage in the investigation into Ummah it should be noticed that Jamaat ul-Fuqra has an isolated community in Combermere in Ontario, Canada, the same province where Abdullah’s oldest son was arrested. And according to a federally-funded 2004 report by the National White Collar Crime Center, Jamaat ul-Fuqra had a training compound in Coldwater, M.I., about two hours from Detroit at the time of the report’s publication. The report also described Jamaat ul-Fuqra as having had “activity” in Detroit including murders and bombings, and having had operations elsewhere in the state.

    The Ummah has also had friends in the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the prominent Muslim advocacy group that claims to be moderate but was formed originally as part of Muslim Brotherhood’s networks. The organization was also listed as an un-indicted co-conspirator in the trial of the Holy Land Foundation, a charity found to have acted as a covert fundraiser for Hamas.
    The American-Muslim Taskforce, an umbrella organization counts CAIR among its members, is demanding an investigation into the killing of Abdullah. One thousand people attended his funeral. The head of CAIR’s branch in Michigan, Dawud Walid, has also gone to bat for Abdullah, saying he was “chartiable.”
    “He would open up the mosque to homeless people. He used to run a soup kitchen and feed indigent people…I knew nothing of him that as related to any nefarious or criminal behavior,” he said.

    Internal CAIR documents show that CAIR helped fundraise for the legal appeal of Jamil Abdullah al-Amin. Imam Abdullah’s rage against the U.S. government was also triggered in part by CAIR’s campaign to paint the War on Terror as a War on Islam. The complaint against him quotes him as saying, “CAIR and everybody send me all of this stuff. I get sick…I got some soldiers with me. … Brothers that I know would, you know, if I say ‘Let’s go, we going to go and do something.’”

    The threat from Ummah is not over. It is described by the FBI as a “nationwide radical fundamentalist Sunni group,” and the death of Abdullah will not end their spreading of radical Islam and the skills to turn that ideology into deadly action. With Jamaat ul-Fuqra potentially available to provide the training, a match between the two would create a force capable of waging guerilla war, inside or outside the U.S. as part of their goal to create a miniature Islamic state inside America. The FBI must make sure that such an alliance is not formed.

  • Warty||

    Yes, but what about the chemtrails?

  • I know it||

    What about Scotch? Admit it.

  • Mike||

    Libtard Argument: See, unlike the incompetent black and brown terrorist wannabees Bush arrested, these wannabees are a real threat because of their superior white intellects!

  • Mike||

    I am no founding father fetishist, but to claim that their theological views were akin to modern day bible thumpers is just bad history.

    It depends on the founding father in question. Some of them were rather non-religiuous, others were what we'd today call "religious nut-jobs". This country was populated by assorted Christian splinter sects fleeing religious persecution in Europe. So, yeah, there were bible thumpers among them.

  • ||

    Great SITE for Documentaries check it out,

    http://freeviewdocumentaries.com

  • Mike||

    The left is just so fucking desperate for a return to the 90's rightwing domestic terrorist meme that it's embarrassing.

    But I'm not sure that they can get away with pushing their prefered storyline on the country, now that we live in the internet age.

  • Mike||

    In the first paragraph, he tries to hard to make these guys seem phony, but they did try to obtain explosives. Well that's a pretty dumb thing to do

    Maybe so, maybe not. If the Ruby Ridge case is anything to go by, the FBI have been known to just make shit up.

  • ||

    Did shrike forget to take his meds or was he simply born that way? They guy needs to get more rec time in his sandbox with his Tonka toys!

    The last time I checked Timothy McVeigh wasn't some "right-wing Christfag". Despite his upbringing as a Catholic, he was a confirmed agnostic, a very secular anarcho-socialist government hater. He admitted in an interview that he ascribed absolutely no religious motives to blowing up the Federal Murrah Building in OK city, so by your own argument shrike I suppose we can refer McVeigh as a secularfag just like you, eh?

    Hey, there are a lot of crazy people to go around but it looks like more of them are on the left side of the aisle - secular or religious. Most of the presidential assassins have been left-wing, at minimum they would have been considered the "progressives" of their time and the morons who recently shot up the Pentagon and flew a plane into an IRS office were raving lunatic, Bush-hating, Marxist spouting leftists! But you wouldn't know that listening to how the national socialist media shape the news.

    BTW, were are the friggin' "weapons of mass destruction" this "Christian militia" was supposed to have had? I think the BATF technical term for a pipebomb would be an "illegal destructive device." By the lamestream media's present definition of "weapons of mass destruction", I suppose Iraq was indeed filled with them given the very real existence of IEDs, shaped explosives and copper penetrator bombs that were multiple orders of magnitude more powerful than stinkin' pipebombs.

    BTW, this whole thing is starting to smell like Ruby Ridge/Waco redux ... leftist Democratic administration in concert with the FBI and BATF want to put down eeeeeevil misguided religionists wanting to take over the world (cue demonic, new world order laugh)

  • ||

    The French Resistance in World War II these guys weren't... amateur hour, even the other militia folk wouldn't back up the screwballs.

  • ||

    Hey, shrike, unless you're willing to now call John Adams a liar, here's his eyewitness account of those early American architects who built this nation. And so that you won't squawk I'm making this quote up, it's found in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813, which makes it all the more interesting:

    "Who composed that army of fine young fellows that was then before my eyes? There were among them Roman Catholics, English Episcopalians, Scotch and American Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, Anabaptists, German Lutherans, German Calvinists, Universalists, Arians, Priestleyans, Socianians, Independents, Congregationalists, Horse Protestants and House Protestants, Deists and Atheists and Protestants who believe nothing. Very few, however of several of these latter species; nevertheless, all educated in the general principles of Christianity, and the general principles of English and American liberty ... And what were these general principles? I answer, the general principles of Christianity in which all those sects were united ... in majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her independence. Now I will avow, that I then believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature and our terrestrial, mundane system ... I believed they would never make discoveries in contradiction to these general principles."

    Hey, these guys sound like they were mainstream, sincere Christians, not a bunch of lying secular Deists who were pretending to be Christians so they could maintain their public influence. Don't confuse the politics of European Deism to that of American deism that was far weaker as the result of the Great Awakening. Even Benjamin Franklin's view of secular deism changed as he got older (and wiser) and both he and Jefferson referred to hard-core deists as little more than atheists. Sorry, dude, I can't swallow your historical revisionism. And I have about three hundred other founding quotes that established the mainstream Judeo-Christian views of the American founders. And though they would probably be described as "religious fanatics" by the likes of you (if you had an ounce of historical integrity left), they wouldn't quite fit into the fundamentalist movement though they would most certainly embrace the evangelical libertarianism that exists today in the post-Christian era that defines America today.

    BTW, I do believe in "separation of church and state" so please keep you irreligious religion out of our politics and quite lying about American history - the American founders would have tarred and feathered the likes of you with your hateful broadsides concerning the founding faith of this country.

  • :||

    Hank said it. That proves it.

  • ||

    Good to see actual historical account here. It seems too many are content to believe what others tell them instead of actually looking up the information themselves.

  • dennis||

    Oh boy.

  • ||

    I agree with "ohnonotthisagain".

    These people train militarily and try to get explosives.

    Why does so much of the Right, especially the "Libertarians" play down people who are training militarily to "overthrow" the "oppressive Obama Regime"?

    If these were Weatherman Clones or Black Panthers who were heavily armed, ideologically motivated, and they were training, what would the Right and the Libertarian Right think of them?

    I understand that you think these guys are harmless clowns, but I wonder why you think they are harmless clowns.

  • ||

    If I may add one more comment, also in the form (a' la Final Jeopardy) of a question:

    why do commenters on all political sites seek to demonize anyone you fell does not identify himself as you?

    That is, according to many here, "the Left" is just dying to have Obama shot at. Proof of this canard: Your opinion, backed up by others who assert the same thing.

    The idea that Hit and Run is filled with like minded people who oppose their "enemies, the liberals" almost seems like a lost plot from a Simpson's episode that was never made.

    In America, liberal;s are not your enemies just as on liberal sites conservatives are not our enemies.

    We are approaching a Discourse that will be too stupid to support democracy and debate at a very high speed and I wonder why so few people are upset about that.

    My theory is that modern life imposes so many challenges on our identity that people cling to politics as if somehow the identity we experience of hating our enemies makes us whole.

    Maybe it makes for a bunch of assholes hating each other, but wholeness seems to elide and escape even in these supposedly strongnly constructed identities,

  • WTF||

    We are approaching a Discourse that will be too stupid to support democracy and debate at a very high speed

    Unfortunately, after hanging out and commenting at various blog sites (and being a blogger at one) for the past several years, I am coming to the conclusion that that train already has reached the station and the passengers have disembarked and scattered.

    In other words, I think we're essentially fucked.

    Too many people don't know diddly squat about the history of this country, and in particular, the founding of the United States. Not only how it came to be, but why - what were the motivating forces of the framers and the generally understood philosophy of that time of the appropriate relationship between government and individual.

    Just as most people are pathetically ignorant of history, they also are pathetically ignorant not only of what the Constitution says, but what is was supposed to mean. Even if they do actually take any time to read the words (which most don't), rather than research what those words actually mean, or always were understood to mean, they will instead look to see what meaning they can either twist out of them or impart to them, to serve their desired ends - which of course, always justify the means.

    In light of such willful ignorance, combined with a dogged determination to believe that things should be the way these ignorants want them to be, I'm concluding that generally, we're fucked.

  • cynical||

    "That is, according to many here, "the Left" is just dying to have Obama shot at."

    Empirical evidence collected by interaction with MoveOn/Kos type leftists (establishment Democrats would be more concerned about the possibility of President Joe Biden than myth-making). Anecdotal, but not the same as opinion.

  • ||

    Here are some more goodies:

    Thomas Jefferson:

    “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.”

    James Madison

    “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

    George Washington:

    “The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!”

    Daniel Webster

    “There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our overthrow. Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from anothe quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence. I must confess that I do apprehend some danger. I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men and become the instruments of their own undoing.”

    “Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster, and what has happened once in 6000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail, there will be anarchy throughout the world.”

    “If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instruction and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may ovenvhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity.”

    “If religious books are not widely circulated among the masses in this country, I do not know what is going to become of us as a nation. If truth be not diffused, error will be; If God and His Word are not known and received, the devil and his works will gain the ascendancy, If the evangelical volume does not reach every hamlet, the pages of a corrupt and licentious literature will; If the power of the Gospel is not felt throughout the length and breadth of the land, anarchy and misrule, degradation and misery, corruption and darkness will reign without mitigation or end.”

    Noah Webster:

    “In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed….No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

    “When you become entitled to exercise the right of voting for public officers, let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God. The preservation of a republican government depends on the faithful discharge of this duty;

    “If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made not for the public good so much as for the selfish or local purposes;

    “Corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizens will be violated or disregarded.

    “If a republican government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws.”

    “Corruption of morals is rapid enough in any country without a bounty from government. And…the Chief Magistrate of the United States should be the last man to accelerate its progress.”

  • Maw||

    Gotta love the out of context quote copy-pasta. Did you scrib all of that out of David Barton's book?

    Jefferson's first quote is taken out of context from his Notes on the State of Virginia where he is contemplating the evil of slavery he has helped to perpetuate:

    http://candst.tripod.com/studygd7d.htm

    Madison's first quote is completely fabricated

    http://candst.tripod.com/misq1.htm

    and so on and so on.

  • ||

    Thus, the true purpose of the PATRIOT Act, "Fusion" centers, and all the other police state measures are revealed.

    They were pimped as efforts to fight "Islamic Terrorists," but the real target was always domestic anti-government groups.

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