Why a Secessionist Movement Is Brewing in California

Supporters of the new state of Jefferson raise serious grievances against the state and federal governments.

Most Californians treat with bemusement the news that the board of supervisors in far-north Siskiyou County voted 4-1 early this month to seek secession from California and revive efforts to create a new state of Jefferson.

But while U.S. flags are unlikely to soon add another star, this rural separatist movement has long been brewing and is based on serious grievances that state and federal officials would be wise to ponder.

Two years ago, I attended the Defend Rural America event at the Siskiyou County fairgrounds in Yreka, where some attendees proudly flew the Jefferson flag. The proposed state’s boundaries have varied, but the movement was started in 1941 to combine counties in southern Oregon with some in northern California. The flag features two “Xs” — to signify being double-crossed by Sacramento and Salem.

The earliest Jefferson movement dissipated after the attack on Pearl Harbor. It’s hard to call for a national break-up during wartime. But the movement has been a backdrop to debates in those counties ever since. The Jefferson movement was a “publicity gimmick” to lure federal investment in local minerals and logging industries, according to the Oregon Encyclopedia. But locals don’t see it as a stunt.

More than 100 people packed the board chambers for the recent vote, according to news reports, with almost all of them supporting the resolution. That wouldn’t be a bad turnout in San Diego County, with its 3 million population, let alone in Siskiyou, population 44,000.

Secessionists complain that public policy is driven by the large metropolitan regions, and that urban legislators are constantly attacking their way of life. At the Yreka event in 2011, for instance, eight sheriffs from both states vowed to defy federal rules limiting public access to public lands. Locals decried plans to demolish dams along the Klamath River. They say that no one listens to them.

“This is the beginning of a discussion about having a different set of rules for urban communities and rural communities because our lifestyles are so different,” Richard Marshall, president of the Siskiyou Water Users and a Fort Jones resident, told me. “We’re having a discussion, not a revolution.”

It’s a shorter drive from San Diego to El Paso, Texas, than it is from San Diego to Yreka. It’s still a four-and-a-half-hour drive to remote and mountainous Yreka from Sacramento, which explains why rural residents want regulations tailored to their unique needs.

Although secession has a conservative bent — with its focus on gun-rights, and complaints about land-use restrictions and oddball priorities in the Capitol — it’s not entirely right wing. Marijuana farmers and free spirits in the rural coastal counties, such as Humboldt, have also complained about indifference from far-off officials.

This, obviously, wouldn’t be the first time a new state was created in America, a nation which broke off from another country. Yet some editorialists have expressed outrage at this modest act of defiance.

The Sacramento Bee’s editorial page, known to champion the causes of California’s poor and downtrodden, couldn’t muster any sympathy for hard-pressed north-state residents. The vote is a “juvenile stunt,” it harumphed, as it used the county’s plight (an old population, high poverty rate and dependence on government jobs) as evidence that “seceding would only make Siskiyou’s problems worse.”

Siskiyou residents say that the county is such a basket case because the government’s environmental rules have limited opportunities for logging, farming and fishing. The population would be younger if people could get jobs.

Siskiyou residents say they aren’t happy that they depend on government.

Reacting to such big-city criticism, the Chico Enterprise-Record, in Butte County, reminded readers that the secession vote is about opposing oppressive regulations, skewed priorities and resource grabs that emanate from “detached” Sacramento: “The folks in Siskiyou County just got tired of outsiders telling them what they could and couldn’t do.” The movement, it argued, is designed to get government officials to “listen up.”

One shouldn’t be optimistic about any new listening skills given that rural residents can’t match the political muscle of the state’s largest special-interest groups. So the Jefferson idea probably won’t go far, but the issues that animate it won’t go away, either.

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  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Most Californians treat with bemusement the news that the board of supervisors in far-north Siskiyou County voted 4-1 early this month to seek secession...

    I kind of doubt that's what you meant.

  • barc4d||

    This is actually the best job Ive had. I work at Home with Google. I've made $64,000 so far this year working online and I'm a full time student. Moreover, My Uncle Carson got a stunning gold Porsche Cayenne Hybrid only from working part time off a pc. Official website www.Pow6.com

  • plusafdotcom||

  • Tim||

    Canada has the maple leaf and Jefferson will have a pot leaf flag.

  • Paul.||

    What will Quebec have... you know, when they finally secede like they've been threatening since... Canada was founded.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Shat!

    Shat! I can almost remember those alien places,
    That time you told me that
    You were beaming down soon.
    And Shat, I thought the only
    Lonely place was on the moon.
    Shat! Shat!

    Shat! Was your first officer as cold as a chargeless phaser?
    How come he told you that
    You were hardly bold enough yet?
    And Shat, I thought that Sulu
    Was a lady suffragette.
    Shat! Shat!

    Antimatter, want Shat to always love me.
    Antimatter, want Shat to always love me.
    Antimatter, warp driver.

    Shat! With the women you did in a thousand places.
    Get on the bridge and we'll
    Go for a ride in the sky.
    And Shat, I thought that Sulu
    Was a lady suffragette.
    Shat! Shat!

  • ||

    A Confederation they freely joined.

    I don't know. What's the symbol of a petulant, immature teenager?

    They talk and threaten and blame everyone under the sun for their troubles and their fears - hence all the backward laws and values charter. Indebted to their eyeballs, they want to move out and get rent money from mommy and daddy.

  • ||

    EXACTLY. Those so called regulations are necessary. We cannot simply allow logging anywhere and everywhere to do so would destroy this country.

    I HAVE ZERO sympathy for rural voters they are narrow minded, small minded religious zealots. I am trans m2f there is not a rural area of this country where I would feel safe being myself. As far as I'm concerned rural areas should not even have separate voting districts.

    Every voting district should be tied to a city.

  • Gene||

    If this isn't sarc, Fuck off.

    If it is, well put.

  • Stephdumas||

    Some said even before the founding of Canada in 1867 with the Patriotes rebellion/Lower Canada rebellion of 1837-38.

  • ||

    The Patriotes were not just made up of French-Canadians but the Irish (and even some Swiss) nor was it just a 'nationalist' fight against English Canada. It was an anti-colonial fight led by Papineau demanding American-style Democracy (ironic given that nationalists are for the most part anti-American).

    It's another part of history subjected to nationalist revisionism.

  • rts||

    A long and noble history: 51st state proposals and movements

  • Drake||

    How about some swaps? Let New Jersey have Philadelphia, while the conservative counties in Northwest NJ get to join PA.

    The rest of New York would be great if they could talk NYC and Long Island into forming a separate state.

  • KDN||

    The rest of New York would be great if they could talk NYC and Long Island into forming a separate state.

    I see you've never been to Buffalo.

  • plusafdotcom||

    Actually, what y'all have been leading to is the conclusion that the "new states" should be formed from the coastal metropolitan center ONLY.

    I'd LOVE to see how that would work out in reality!

  • Square||

    California needs to be at least five states, maybe more. All the state borders in the West were drawn up when no one lived here. Half the states on the east coast are smaller than average-sized California counties and have less people living in them, but they each get two senators.

  • perlhaqr||

    This. Very much this. With the exception of Los Alamos County, which wasn't formed until 1949 as a Federal boondoggle, every county in New Mexico from there on up is larger than the entire state of Rhode Island.

  • Goophee||

    What is the population totals for eachof those counties? Government representation is based on people who live in a jurisdiction, not the prairie dog and coyote population.

  • ||

    sadly if that was true Wyoming would not be it's own state, because frankly it doesn't deserve to be.

  • RightNut||

    You want 10 Dianne Feinstein's instead of 2!????

  • Jesus H. Christ||

    This.

  • Square||

    If you split the state into five, you would more likely get four Feinsteins and six Pete Wilsons.

  • ||

    I'd be more than happy with that Feinstein is one of the smartest best senators we have.

  • Chili Dogg||

    I just spit up in my mouth. Thanks a lot, Tiffany.

  • SForza||

    Feinstein probably is the smartest senator we (California) have. Boxer is just that dumb. Just because Feinstein is evil & not nearly as smart as she thinks she is, doesn't mean she's as dumb as Boxer.

  • Square||

    Which, in my opinion is six of one, half a dozen of the other, but at least California would have something that vaguely resembles proportionate representation in the Senate.

  • Goophee||

    What if the USA does not wish to annex/add/adopt these self-created fiefdoms? You secede, take no federal land, minerals, or material and the USA does not recognize you. What now, Sparky?

  • Sevo||

    The unions' mouthpiece, Jerry Brown, says 'I don't care'.

  • RBS||

    OT: Fair?

    My cousin just posted this on FB and is freaking out about how selfish this is. It seems to me like it's actually the most reasonable way to settle custody in this case.

  • ||

    Worse custody arrangements have been made. I'd be curious to know how old the kids are.

  • RBS||

    I thought the article said they were born in July.

  • tarran||

    So two infants who will never remember each other are being separated...

    Yes, let's have a fight over this!

  • ||

    Oh, then hell yes, split them up. I would hope they aren't catty enough to pretend that the children are only children, but it's not like they've been playmates for the last several years and are going to be destroyed by the split.

    Someday I will develop reading comprehension skills.

  • RBS||

    Well, in your defense the TMZ page is full of distracting nonsense.

  • ||

    Why is that "selfish"? It makes pretty good sense. I'm assuming your cousin is on TEAM OUTRAGE and just needs to find the next outrage orgy.

  • RBS||

    Why? Because twins! She is firmly on Team Outrage, actually it's more like Team Everyone Support My Shitty Choices and Listen to Me Complain About Them.

  • ||

    Just respond on Facebook that twins are inherently evil, and the only way to disrupt their Satanic powers is to split them up. Tell her that Vatican scientists have proven this beyond a shadow of a doubt, and that Jesus said that twins must be separated to keep them from evil. It's in...uh...Leviticus 1:14?

  • anon||

    Just respond on Facebook that twins are inherently evil,

    Especially if they're ginger twins.

    Though I recommend we keep them until they're 18 just in case they're both hot and into some kind of incestual threesome.

  • ||

    They're fraternal twins, so unless you're bisexual, only one has a chance of being hot from your perspective. Still, raising them for indentured porn servitude has some merits, assuming they are attractive. We can hold that option in reserve.

  • anon||

    Well, everyone's a little gay. If she's hot enough, I could be gay for 5 minutes.

  • ||

    Wait, you're a chick? You need to watch out for this guy named Pro Libertate. He's a total PUA and scammer. Don't believe a word he says, and DO NOT get in his van or drink anything he gives you.

  • anon||

    No, I'm saying if she's hot enough, I could tolerate her brother being involved.

  • ||

    Whatever, I'm just going to assume you're a chick. Just like I do with Hugh.

  • ||

    Just like I do with Hugh. certainly explains gayest monster since gay came to Gaytown

  • ||

    I assume everyone at Reason is a chick and that they all look like a cross between Eakins and Kennedy.

    The alternative is just not enticing enough.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Wait, what?

  • ||

    everyone's at least a little gay

    You're talking to Epi after all.

  • ||

    Who's the gayest monster since gay came to Gaytown?

  • Paul.||

    Well, everyone's a little gay.

    My wife used to believe that, then she met me.

    *lights match on pant seam*

  • Ann N||

    fraternal has nothing to do with genders.

    its about genetic material NOT being exactly the same.

    fraternal is not, identical is. you can have fraternal twin sons.

  • perlhaqr||

    I usually go with Leviticus 4:20, because it's fun to fuck with people's heads.

  • Paul.||

    Start a confusing side thread about gay divorce.

  • ||

    That's going on in the TMZ comments, which are actually kind of fun:

    YAWDIE GYAL

    It's scientifically proven that babies that share the same womb share a special conmection. It's a travesty that they are separated and will not get to grow up together in the same home as siblings should. Shame on the judge that co-signed on this epically bad agreement......

    (emphasis mine)

    SCIENCE BITCHES!

  • anon||

    Now, if only I knew what a conmection was.

  • Swiss Servator, Spare a Franc?||

    Its something all science-y.

  • wwhorton||

    How do you measure specialness? Joules? Grams? I need clarification here.

  • RBS||

    Or gay remarriage. Little Timmy has 4 daddies.

  • anon||

    Speaking of TEAM OUTRAGE, I read something about this girl talking about how revenge porn is basically cyber-rape.

    So, fear not! Warty's cyber-raping will soon come to an end! Not that that'll stop the real raping.

  • RBS||

    "Imagine telling your dad that there are nude photos and a video of you on the Internet," says Jacobs.

    How could she possibly avoid that?

  • anon||

    I still can't get over consensual sex being equated to rape.

  • Rasilio||

    Don't you realize that consent can be withdrawn at any time? Even 2 weeks after the sex occurred

  • thom||

    Women are inherently at a power disadvantage to men and therefore are unable to consent to sex derp derp derp

  • ||

    Everything is rape, dude.

  • WTF||

    I thought cyber-rape was some Japanese thing that involved tentacles. Or maybe that's Warty, I don't know.

  • Andrew S.||

    Fun fact: Tentacle porn exists because Japanese censorship laws don't allow for unpixelated genitalia.

    I'm not sure why Warty exists.

  • Swiss Servator, Spare a Franc?||

    WHAT ABOUT iSTEVE SMITH?!

  • fish||

    Not nearly as rapey and threatening now that Steve Jobs is dead!

  • R C Dean||

    The best custody arrangement I ever ran across was one where the parents each had 50% of the time with their kids, the kids lived full time in the house, and the parents rotated in and out on a weekly basis.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Ha! Awesome. Where did the parents go when they weren't in the "marital" residence?

  • sloopyinca||

    I hope it was a large house. The thought of sleeping in the same bed as my ex-wife just caused me to throw up in my mouth a little bit.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    We've had clients argue for the return of queen-size sheets (even though Client only owns a king-size bed) despite the fact the queen-size sheets have been "used" since the divorce started. Ew.

    People are dumb.

  • R C Dean||

    The custodial parent for a given week lived in the house with the kids, the other lived somewhere else.

    If the standard really is "the best interest of the children", I don't see why this isn't much more widespread.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Anyone else find it funny that this was posted in a secession thread?

  • sloopyinca||

    Just get your cousin to friend me on FB. Even money says I can turn this little tantrum into a full-on clusterfuck in less than 15 minutes.

  • RBS||

    Despite her annoying propensity to complain about everything I still like her so I'm not subjecting her to the commentariat, as hilarious as that would be.

  • Paul.||

    I understand. Bridges can't be burned.

  • UnCivilServant||

    I thought the only function of a bridge is for burning.

    I mean only monsters cross natural obsticles.

  • WTF||

    I have a cousin who is a proggie from Vermont who has posted "Let's support Hillary in 2016" crap on facebook. It has taken all of my restraint to avoid commenting "What difference at this point would it make?" in response.

  • sloopyinca||

    Is your cousin retarded?

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    He's a proggie from Vermont. QED.

  • WTF||

    Is your cousin retarded?

    Technically, no. But I really have to wonder about her.

  • ||

    Why not do it? Post it. See the response.

    Vermont. Jeez. I go often. The agrarian poor now wear nose rings.

    Nice state and all and strong 'buy local' culture with nice restaurants but the crowd is a tad too uber-left for me.

  • ||

    this rural separatist movement has long been brewing and is based on serious grievances that state and federal officials would be wise to ponder.

    There is really something to this. Population centers tend to be Team Blue and rural areas Team Red. I can see the split morphing into a rural vs urban debate.

    I see something similar happening between the young and old, when the young figure out what previous generations have done to them.

  • some guy||

    Team Blue has many reasons to fight this viciously. One of which is that they can't let the Senate gain two new Team Red seats.

  • ||

    Wouldn't it be easier to scale back state government in CA and make the cities into special administrative zones or city-states?

  • ||

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    "Scale back government"? Come on, jesse. If you're going to troll us on a Friday morning, put some effort into it.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Perhaps he was thinking of scaling government like you do fish. With some sort of knife or grater.

  • ||

    I was thinking more of power being shifted to the urban administrative zones than the power disappearing. That power would just be confined to the urban/suburban jurisdictions and the exurbs and rural regions could operate under a state legislature that's been laid low by the hyenas in LA, OC, SD, SB, and SF city governments.

  • Pro Libertate||

    City-states may be the way things go if terrorism ever becomes a truly regular and global problem. Especially if engineered pathogens are involved.

  • ||

    To do that you will need to get rid of county government. They did that in Connecticut over the course of the 20th century, culminating in total abolition of county government by the 60's, and let me tell you, it rocks. You have your town/city government, then the state, and nothing else.

    Will it happen in California? No fucking way.

  • Pro Libertate||

    With the Democrats clearly owning the mess yet elected at such a rate that they have total control of the state, it's hard to see how things could change, barring some total collapse.

  • ||

    Look, A Serious Man and I have both offered to take over the state and drive our enemies into the sea, recording the wailing and gnashing of teeth to be played over PA systems during the celebration party, but does anybody back either of us up? No. Except for Brett. He gets invited to the victory parties.

  • fish||

    What....."no lamentations of the women"?

    You really are a Manhattan Beach type conqueror aren't you?

  • ||

    What....."no lamentations of the women"?

    Jesus, fish, I don't know if you're being sexist (women will be driven into the sea on an equal basis as men!) or complaining because you wanted the ENTIRE LITANY OF SUFFERING:

    Their gods will be toppled and thrown in the sea, their cattle, sheep and goats will be driven into the mountains of STEVE SMITH, their women, children and dachshunds will be chained in the basement of Warty, their children will be orphaned and sent to the monocle factories where their tears will be distilled for the consumption of my peers, their hard-bodied pool boys will become my hard-bodied pool boys, and their wailing and gnashing of teeth will be recorded and played over PA systems at the victory celebration.

  • sloopyinca||

    dachshunds

    California, dude. Don't you mean chihuahuas?

  • ||

    Don't you mean chihuahuas?

    That would require me to accept the existence of chihuahuas. Besides sometimes you just want to type out dachshund.

  • Pro Libertate||

    In Florida, Duval County and the City of Jacksonville are one and the same.

  • Rasilio||

    One big difference between the 2 is that there is no unincorporated land in Connecticut, In California there are large stretches of unincorporated land where the county government is the only form of local government.

  • sloopyinca||

    "The Regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."

  • Pro Libertate||

    That's a good idea for the Censor. Based in a nuclear-powered bus of mammoth proportions, heavily armed and cruising around America, removing politicians from office.

    A kind of politician-assault vehicle.

  • ||

    Well, well, well...look who it is. Decide to come home for a visit, did ya?

    How's the new job?

  • sloopyinca||

    Busy as shit. I'm about to hold the largest auction my company has ever had, which will gain me a lot of stroke but has just kept me buried.

    Otherwise, all is well. Little Reason is into everything. Baby naming is becoming a problem and we're only 10 weeks away. My handicap is under 10.

  • ||

    Baby naming is becoming a problem and we're only 10 weeks away.

    This is easy.

    Francisco if it's a boy. Francesca if a girl.

    Good luck on the auction.

  • sloopyinca||

    I think we're going to settle on "Liberty". (It's a girl, by the way.)

  • ||

    Liberty is AWESOME!

  • perlhaqr||

    Huzzah! That's the name I picked for my very, very hypothetical (and highly improbable) first female offspring. I tried to get my sister to go with it when her daughter was born, since I wasn't going to need it, but no such luck.

    Ah well. I think it's a great name for a daughter of someone of our general ilk. :)

  • Snark Plissken||

    Why was city-states in the Reasonable filter?

  • RBS||

    Something to do with gamboling...

  • Snark Plissken||

    Aha, should've guessed.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Oh my god I forgot about the fact that WI was obsessed with city-STATISM. Something about agriculture being liberty's #1 enemy.

  • Swiss Servator, Spare a Franc?||

    "agriculture being liberty's #1 enemy

    Wait...what?!

  • fish||

    I'm begging you LTC don't gambol down this road!

  • Pro Libertate||

    Yes, I must object. What if I want to compare something with, say, ancient Pergamon? I understand that comparisons with Nazi Germany are the required analogy under the terms and conditions, but still.

  • Snark Plissken||

    As if you care about any city-state that didn't have Janissaries.

  • ||

    I dunno, but I'm kind of excited I got filtered I should say more things about gamboling between city-states.

  • Snark Plissken||

    This is like the worst chatroom ever.

  • ||

    Wouldn't it be easier to scale back state government in CA and make the cities into special administrative zones or city-states?

    Scaling back government requires the blue votes of the urban folks. A vote to secede wouldn't.

    I would enjoy watching the blue areas dry up and blow away.

  • UnCivilServant||

    We can always make scaling back government part of California's bankruptsy proceedings, along with a breakup into smaller polities.

  • sloopyinca||

    How much fun would it be for the IJ to be named trustee of that Chapter 9 filing? The entirety of Sacramento might spontaneously explode at the thought.

  • perlhaqr||

    "Scaling back government requires the blue votes of the urban folks. A vote to secede wouldn't."

    Wouldn't it? I honestly have no idea how one would vote to secede from a state, but I figured that, as with just about everything, it would be retardedly stacked in favor of the entrenched power. Like, the entire state would have to vote on it, and the people of Siskiyou County would need the permission of the residents of Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles, etc, in order to be allowed to leave. Because hey, the state owns you. (Yeah, ok, I'm a bitter crank. Whatever. ;) )

  • Mizchief||

    This is apparent on petty much any red/blue map broken down by district. A big sea of red with dense patches of blue around cities.

    The civil war was really the same issue, but back then almost all of the south was rural and the north more dependent on cities. Transportation and communication technology has allowed more people to move out of the cities and into the suburbs and rural areas, as southern cities continue to grow with northerners migrating for jobs and better climate.

    This is why government power should be limited and localized. It gives people the right to live the way they choose vs. some bureaucrat that knows nothing about their way of life making all the decisions. Which is exactly why we started this country in the first place.

  • Paul.||

    And the south will rise again?

    Zzz...

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Grievances?

    Haters gonna hate.

  • Rich||

  • wwhorton||

    Woohoo! If that goes down, I'm movin' to Frederick, baby! I don't even own a sailboat, what do I care if I'm on the Bay or not?

  • Blinded by the Derp||

    http://articles.baltimoresun.c.....ett-county

    More Maryland Secession was posted on Drudge this week

  • perlhaqr||

    God, the author of that post is such a complete and utter smarmy shitstain. "Hey, I like Western Maryland, and we own you, so don't even think of leaving."

  • Ron||

    Yreka is one town that was actually helped by Wallmart. It was practically a ghost town before they showed up now its thriving,at least as well as a white trash town can thrive that is. One drive thru that town or go to their 4th of July parade and you will know what white trash is. That being said if they succeed in seccesion then I may move there.

  • sloopyinca||

    The North/South split is still a horrible idea from a liberty-standpoint. The leftist population centers will still dominate the political landscape.

    The best proposal I saw was a more east/west split with the coastal areas from LA County through Sonoma County and part of San Bernardino and Riverside Counties being made into one state and the eastern counties and most of Kern and Fresno Counties joining to become another state. Socially, it works and the economies of each area become more commonly-based. And for added lulz, the state of Eastern California would have the ability to control almost all of the water and electrical supply of the leeching cocksuckers in Coastal California that think water and electricity come from holes in the wall with unlimited supply at the other end.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Yes, they should split into the coast and not coast. The coast can keep the name. The inner regions will be called. . .Luthorfornia.

  • UnCivilServant||

    Only if the capital is at Otisburg.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Otisburg?

  • sloopyinca||

    You fucking idiot. Otisburg.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Dude, do you not remember the scene you just posted? What did Luthor say twice when he saw that town on the map? Come on, let's hear it.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    SCRIPT PWNED

  • sloopyinca||

    If only someone could develop a font that showed inflection, I wouldn't look like a dumbass now.

    If only...

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Is that what you think the problem is? Oh, sloopy...

  • sloopyinca||

    Now I know why I stayed away for so long.

    [runs off sobbing]

  • Pro Libertate||

    You must've hit your head on Armstrong's mailbox or something.

  • bassjoe||

    Huh? Who on coastal CA believes there is an infinite supply of water?

    I was born and raised and California. It's literally pounded into our heads from birth that the state is in a near-perpetual drought, especially in SoCal. Nearly every week there are stories about how low the reservoirs are, how there is some fight between various counties over water resources, how Colorado is pissed about California's alleged overuse of the Colorado River, etc.

    No, water is viewed as a precious resource here. Nobody I know wastes it.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    Sounds like the solution is to implement a free-market in water.

  • UnCivilServant||

    Ironically, New York is a swamp that gets more rainfall than Luisiana (if you count snowfall since it's still water) but they try to push the same 'save the water' policies that California does. I've lived in many a place where the biggest problem is getting RID of the water.

  • Neoliberal Kochtopus||

    lolwut? A Great Lakes state has a Save the Water campaign?

    New York is the worst.

  • sloopyinca||

    For both you and Jesse: everybody I know or deal with professionally on the central coast looks at water as an infinite resource.* I guess my view is skewed.

    *A lot of this stems from purchasing acreage in the eastern part of the state and using the water rights from that acreage to water their fields in the SLO to Monterey area. And the people in the Bay Area look at water differently since they can routinely steal it through EPA actions because of the damn delta smelt and other bullshit endangered wildlife claims. My exposure to SoCal is limited, so I may have painted with too broad a brush.

  • ||

    I'm originally from Santa Cruz. We had bricks in the toilet before low flow toilets actually became a thing, so it isn't just SoCal. I wouldn't put it past San Franciscans to be terrible, and I don't have enough exposure to the central coast folks, although the few people I know in Santa Barbara have low water yards and gardens with bubblers instead of sprinklers.

  • Jesus H. Christ||

    Born and raised in Northern CA. I'm with Sloopy on this one. Not much respect for water in some places. What's worse, people in SoCal think very little of NorCal and act like all the water we send down there is a small price to pay for the benefit of being close to Los Angeles.

  • H. Protagonist||

    I call BS. Were all that true, there would be far, far, far fewer lawns here. Xeriscaping is taken seriously in most desert areas (I can speak personally to how seriously it is in Albuquerque, and my wife agrees for non-strip locations in Vegas), but in Los Angeles? Not even in the slightest.

  • ||

    leeching cocksuckers in Coastal California that think water and electricity come from holes in the wall with unlimited supply at the other end.

    Yeah, nobody born in CA believes that. I grew up in a temperate rain forest and still had it beaten into my head that CA was in a perpetual state of drought from birth. Short showers, low flush toilets (hate), and limited watering the lawn are all de rigueur.

  • bassjoe||

    Meh. California has had an abundance of secessionist movements over the year. In the end, nobody secedes. The rural areas and NorCal cities need SoCal's money; SoCal needs NorCal's water.

  • UnCivilServant||

    Simple - separate the territories and have the water rich states sell the idiot rich states the water.

  • juris imprudent||

    Bringing to mind that lovely phrase hydraulic despotism.

  • Anders||

    More power to them. I seriously doubt that the State and Federal regimes will allow secession though.

    Texas has a better shot at it and Texas politicians speak openly about it. Texas has the natural resources and infrastructure 90% in place to pull it off.

    All of this drives statists in both parties completely batshit crazy. It makes them say things like

    - Good luck defending your borders: Erm, they aren't defended now
    - Good luck with your power and water: Texas has surplus power capacity, massive oil and gas reserves, and an independent power grid.
    - Good luck paying bennies - please.

  • Jackand Ace||

    Here we go with the Texas secession stuff again. Too bad you would have a long way to go to convince Texans of doing it
    http://www.rasmussenreports.co.....pt_to_stay

    Now why would they feel that way? Maybe because the oil in the Gulf belongs to the federal government and not Texas. Maybe because they know they would have to spend all the dollars needed to create their own defense system. Maybe because they would have to replace the millions they currently get for programs like Medicare and Medicaid.

    They're not so dumb after all. But if you want to leave, go ahead. Don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out.

  • Anders||

    I knew I'd get a statist to come out of the closet.

    You guys should celebrate statism - maybe have some kind of equivalent to a gay pride march or something.

  • Anders||

    The current federal system is going to financially collapse. That is not a theory that is statistical fact.

    Those poll numbers you quoted will shift dramatically when you start asking relatively fiscally sound states to bail out the financial basket cases on the coasts.

  • bassjoe||

    Huh? You know nothing about federal fiscal and budgetary policiy.

    One of the major reasons the coastal states are "financial basket cases" is because the coastal states subsidize the existence of the "financial sound" interior states. If California got back every $1 it sent to DC as taxes, it would not have the fiscal problems it has now; instead, it gets back $0.78. Let's see Nebraska, a "fiscally sound" state, function if it suddenly lost 40% of its federal funding.

  • XM||

    California's tech and tourism industry makes a lot money from out of state. And they get some of their water from other states.

    Do coastal states actually "subsidize" local programs that are unique to that region? Of does most of it go to federally mandated programs that exists across the nation?

    If blue coastal states didn't have to subsidize welfare or wind power in Nebraska, they would do it in their backyards.

    The nation will surely take a hit if CA became a nation. But then again, the CA constitution will be a thing of socialist dreams. There won't be any way to stop the minimum wage from reaching 15 dollars and gun rights from becoming a extinct.

    You can do a lot of business in Cali. But the base of operation or manufacturing doesn't have to be there.

  • Jackand Ace||

    I'm a realist, not a statist. And all you secessionists are dreamers. You're not leaving.
    Poll numbers have stayed the same forever. Look in the above article...that county has been talking about this since 1941! And in the south, its been even longer. And nothing ever happens. You know why? Because secession is not in their self interest and everyone knows it.
    It a bunch of hot air. I'm surprised a website like Reason trots out this drivel that usually is only posted on far right websites.

  • Square||

    I think you're conflating two different things. The area of Northern California / Southern Oregon being discussed is not talking about seceding from the US. They are talking about seceding from California and Oregon and becoming a 51st state.

  • Robert||

    But if you secede from a state, doesn't that automatically boot you from the US? You're no longer part of a state that makes up the USA, so unless & until the USA admits you, you're your own country.

  • Surfing LA||

    Constitutionally speaking, such a secession would be invalid in the first place without the permission of the states involved and the Congress.

  • Jackand Ace||

    No, I understand the difference. My original comment was about the incessant talk from some about Texas secession from the union (I really wish they would stop talking about it and get on with it...they seem to think that we would take it like a threat when we wish it was a promise).

    I only used the California issue as an example of how long everyone speaks about secession, and in the end never does anything about it...federally or state wide.

    In fact, I live in New York, and on Long Island here it is still referred to as the "51st State." And it will never happen.

  • Enigma||

    Lets examine what defines a nation. First, its economy. Texas can export many products and can maintain its currency. It also has a satisfactory business environment that attracts job creators to the state. Second, basic defense. Texas can deal with Mexico on its own, and, with the help of a few nukes and Russia and China, can adequately defend itself against the United States. Third, internal policing. This wouldn't apply to Texas or any other first world economy, but the newly formed government of Texas can police itself (no warlords running around). Fourth, relative self-sufficiency. While self-sufficiency is not required in the modern world economy, it is nonetheless a good idea. Texas can feed, clothe, and power itself satisfactorily.

    So, in theory, Texas could fit the definition of a nation.

  • Jackand Ace||

    Please, get on with it and stop just jabbering about it, like people like you have done since the Civil War. Luckily for Texas itself, 75% of the state's population think you have no idea what you are talking about.

  • Enigma||

    Jackland Ace, why don't you try to counter my points? All you can do is hurl these odd and mind-boggling insults, when I'm not even supporting these succession movements. Do you deny that Texas has these resources? Countries have survived on much less. Stop the childish rants and just get on with addressing my points. If you can't address my points either don't respond or admit you were wrong and apologize to the community for crowding up this wonderful forum with your myopic rants.

  • Enigma||

    *secession

    Blasted phone!

  • perlhaqr||

    Yeah, but when Texas talks about "secession", they're talking about seceding from the Union, whereas these guys are just talking about seceding from California, and making a new U.S. state.

    Pretty different ballgames, there.

  • The||

  • XM||

    The first and only president of the CSA was Jefferson Davis. And where did they find the inspiration for the "X" on the Jefferson Flag? Not the stars and stripes, that's for sure!

    What can be considered as California's equivalent of Fort Sumter? We must fortify before they can strike first.

  • Square||

    Reno.

  • Stephdumas||

    Should I mention a bit the Cascadia secession movement along with an anthem?
    http://cascadianow.org/
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGJpXcShGSM

  • radical centrist blogger||

    this is one reason why I cannot take you online idiots seriously any longer. Neither this article nor any one comment below it mentions the most important aspect of secession--that it increases democracy by increasing homogeneity. Democracy is good, right? Then howcum none of you online idiots ever mention it in connection with secessionism? Cuz yer all idiots? Yep!

  • Surfing LA||

    This doesn't increase democracy. Back to fifth grade Western Civ class, democracy is one man, one vote to policy. This is stacking the deck to a desolate area, which is represented by an assemblyman, a state senator, a congressman (one of 52 in the state, btw - ya think the Calif caucus doesn't coordinate?), and two senators. On top of that, it has the county board, the sheriff, the DA, and county clerk.

    How much more representation do you need?? There's not much more to be had, if any, and certainly not fairly.

  • labman57||

    Hmmm. Should this foolhardy, highly improbable attempt at statehood be approved by all of the powers that be and actually come to pass ...

    ... shall we count how long it takes for these indignant faux-patriots and their newly elected representatives to appeal to the federal government for massive subsidies and other financial support?

  • Goophee||

    Why do these secessionists always assume that the USA will wish to annex/accept/adopt them? As a citizen of the USA that does not live in CA or Or, I believe I speak for the majority here when I say we do not wish to add two (2) Senators for a few thousand people. I do not believe we desire more Congressman for a few thousand dicontented people. Also, if you are unhappy with your state legislature, you are not allowed to confiscate USA land and material for your use. If you are so dissatisfied with Sacramento and Salem, and are unable to gain relief or satisfaction through legitimate channels, your remaining option is to leave. YOU LEAVE, not the land, minerals and wealth.

  • Surfing LA||

    Mr Greenhut! You wretched man! You have the audacity to write, "The earliest Jefferson movement dissipated after the attack on Pearl Harbor. It’s hard to call for a national break-up during wartime,"

    but completely fail to note that we are actually in wartime at the present moment? Or does our longest war ever simply not count for you?!?

    Can't you see the Vinson and Reagan from your office??

  • zigfreid||

    The Secessionist movement isn't growing at all. This is the most ridiculous, insane and moronic piece of writing ever. First off, please when you write an article do a little bit of research. The reason the secessionist movement is the most retarded thing ever run by uneducated, tea-bagging fools is this, it is illegal for a State to Secede without the approval of Congress and the President. Look it up. For the love of god, read. The second a State tries it without the approval of Congress, the President has the right to march troops right down your streets to take back control.

    The fact is, there will NEVER be another State to ever secede from the U.S.A. Period. o please put away your racist, uneducated, tea-bagging pen and go do something productive.

  • Enigma||

    The legality of secession is irrelevant. All is fair in love and war. And you have shown much tendency to violence.

    the President has the right to march troops right down your streets to take back control.

    The president's men couldn't hold a bunch of illiterate fools in Afghanistan. Do you think he could hold a heavily armed popluation hostile to anybody who supports him, many of which have a much higher standard of education (and thus capable of making far more dangerous weapons)? You're a joke.

    The fact is

    The fact is, all it takes to make people like you capitulate into submission is a few gunshots and exploding pots in your neighborhoods, and some body bags coming back from the front. You then tremble in fear, locked in your homes like slaves, waiting quietly for the "all clear" that will never come. When faced with this, along with other pressures, from the ineptitude of your military and police to the ineptitude of your mind, you will crumble.

    Period. o please put away your racist, uneducated, tea-bagging pen and go do something productive.

    You're a joke. Leave

  • BLEEDINELL||

    Name me one large population center in our country that would survive financially without the rural areas support.
    We're rural, and to fight the great sucking of wealth to our cities, we are turning more and more to the black market economy. Work for cash, barter.
    At some point though, the rural areas will push back. And if that means peacefully (secession) or not (revolt), the movement is heading in that direction, like it or not.

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