Driving to Delusionville

Obama’s former auto czar is in deep denial about the government’s failed bailout

The former Obama auto czar, Ron Bloom, was on Capitol Hill last week telling Congress what a grand bargain the auto bailout has turned out to be for taxpayers. (His testimony should be on the Syfy channel.) But much was missing from his story that he might have heard if he had hung around for the next panel. (Full disclosure: I was on it.)

The story that Bloom told, and that President Obama is making the signature theme of his re-election campaign, goes like this: If the administration hadn’t infused $80 billion into GM and Chrysler, the companies would have hemorrhaged to death. Financial markets, themselves in panic mode, would not have given them the funds necessary to restructure through Chapter 11 bankruptcies and stay in business. Hence, they would have had to shut their factories, sell their assets for scrap and liquidate. And this would have bankrupted auto parts suppliers, shut down dealerships, laid off 1 million workers—whose pension and unemployment benefits taxpayers would have had to foot -- and devastated entire communities. GM and Chrysler may never repay taxpayers in full. But any loss is less than the cost of this economic Armageddon.

This narrative would make for a great horror movie. But any resemblance to real world events is purely coincidental.

For starters, many experts suspect that at least GM could have obtained private bankruptcy financing if it had presented a credible restructuring plan addressing the cause of its malaise: the uncompetitive costs of its unionized work force. If it couldn’t, then the government could have offered guarantees to private lenders for the amounts they loaned, which likely would have been smaller than the bailout.

But the administration took matters in its own hands, using taxpayer dollars to commandeer the bankruptcy process to protect key constituencies, while giving short shrift to others. It gave Chrysler’s secured creditors, who would have had priority in a normal bankruptcy, 29 cents on the dollar. Chrysler’s unions, on the other hand, got more than 40 cents, even though they are equivalent to low-priority lenders. This made a mockery of longstanding bankruptcy law, something that will make credit markets wary of lending to political sacred cows in the future.

The administration favored union workers not only over creditors, but also other workers. All United Auto Workers retirees at Delphi, GM’s auto supplier, got 100 percent of their pension and retirement benefits. But 21,000 nonunion, salaried employees lost up to 70 percent of their pensions, and all of their life and health insurance. The Treasury could have covered 93 percent of the benefits of all employees for the same funds it spent on full union benefits, testified Bruce Gump, a representative of the Delphi Salaried Retirees Association.

Even for GM and Chrysler, the bailout constitutes a missed opportunity, not a second chance. They didn’t get nearly the kind of relief from labor costs that they would have in a normal bankruptcy. Not only are they on the hook for most of their legacy costs, they still pay union workers $58 per hour including benefits. This wouldn’t be so bad if Toyota, whose costs are $56 per hour, were setting the industry’s cost curve. But that’s no longer the case. Hyundai and Kia, with $40-an-hour costs, do that. The bailout prepared GM and Chrysler to compete with the industry leaders of yesterday, not tomorrow.

Absent the bailout, these companies would have survived, but they would have looked very different. They might have merged into one, pooling resources and slashing excess capacity from the industry. Alternatively, entrepreneurs might have purchased their more viable brands and run them as independent companies, breaking up the industry’s big vertically-integrated players into myriad smaller ones. Either way, the labor and capital squeezed out from the industry would have been more productively deployed elsewhere. History offers examples: A bankruptcy-triggered reorganization of the steel industry three decades ago led to an 18 percent increase in employment in the plastic industry, which replaced steel for some uses. The auto bailout has entrenched the status quo, strangling new possibilities.

Worse, it has unleashed a systemic moral hazard. GM had accrued $70 billion in losses in the two years before the bailout and debt 24 times its market capitalization. By contrast, Ford had eliminated money-losing brands and mortgaged all its assets -- including its logo, the Blue Oval—raising funds to weather the economic downturn. By bailing out GM, the administration rewarded its recklessness and penalized Ford’s prudence. Every company that feels it is too big to fail, or is a national icon or major regional employer, will wonder whether it makes more business sense to save for a rainy day or simply hold out for taxpayer assistance. And just as the Wall Street bailout became a justification for the auto bailout, the auto bailout will become a justification for the bailout of future reckless players.

The administration is casting GM as an Atlas-like figure carrying the economy on its shoulders. In fact, the real Atlases are the taxpayers and creditors carrying GM—and they got screwed by the bailout.

Shikha Dalmia is a senior policy analyst at Reason Foundation and a columnist at The Daily. This article originally appeared at The Daily.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • Barack Obama Trumka||

    The administration favored union workers not only over creditors, but also other workers.

    You say that like it's a bad thing.

  • Union Autoworker||

    Thank god for you.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    You can't put a price on voter loyalty.

  • Chrysler Shareholder||

    I didn't even get a peck on the goddamn cheek, let alone any lube.

  • Obama's Volt||

    I am proud to be the Amerikan version of the Trabant and Yugo, the heroic communist attempts at automobiles. Of course my quality is much better, though my range is limited. Who cares with that big fat subsidy, anyway? Leonardo DiCaprio will soon be driving me around Hollywood.

  • ||

    Move along, nothing to see here! Move along!

  • ||

    BO Trumka, reread your post. "administration favored union workers over other workers" and over creditors. Yes, that IS a BAD thing. Points out how beholder to money the administration is.And since when are union workers morally superior to the rest of the world???

  • DLM||

    ...since when are union workers morally superior to the rest of the world???

    They've always been morally superior. Just ask them.

  • Ok, I'll ask||

    Overburdened Cali taxpayer: We're broke, government payrolls are crushing us. Why can't the government unions see that?

    California Public Employee Union Boss: There's plenty of money in California, it's just in other people's pockets.

  • ||

    hmrhonda -

    Jeez, have we become so dumbed-down that no one recognizes sarcasm any more?

  • ||

    What he means is... (I'll type slow so you can understand.)

    If you were in a union, you were treated MUCH better than another worker who wasn't.
    Union? You kept 100% benefits.
    Not? Some kept only 30%.
    Even for the same job, seniority, etc...

    And that was the ONLY reason - being a member.

    Got it? No? That's why you need your union. Not smart enough.

    I call it money laundering. The Dems give the unions tax money, and the unions send a % back to the Dems. If proven, it could be prosecuted under RICO.

  • Environmentalists||

    Wait, we gave money to the auto companies to help them stay in business?

    What the fuck, Democrats? What the fuck?

  • Da Administration||

    Wait, you actually believed that horseshit we shoveled during the campaign?!?

    LMAO.

    You and the peaceniks are sure gullible.

    LOL

  • Barack Obama||

    Its ok because we only gave money to GM so we could dictate that they start making the volt!!1!1!!!!! If it doesn't sell, we'll just continue to subsidize it forever!

  • Obama's Volt||

    AMEN, bro.

  • Old Mexican||

    The story that Bloom told[...] goes like this: If the administration hadn't infused $80 billion into GM and Chrysler, the companies would have hemorrhaged to death. [T]hey would have had to shut their factories, sell their assets for scrap and liquidate. And this would have bankrupted auto parts suppliers, shut down dealerships, laid off 1 million workers — whose pension and unemployment benefits taxpayers would have had to foot - and devastated entire communities.


    The government critters have a penchant for describing economic solutions through emotional arguments, instead of economic arguments.

    GM and Chrysler may never repay taxpayers in full. But any loss is less than the cost of this economic Armageddon.


    The "could've been worse" canard we've grown accustomed to.

  • ||

    Yeah, it is a pretty poor argument. But it coulda been worse....

  • ||

    coulda, shoulda, woulda, and $80 billion...

  • DLM||

    The government critters have a penchant for describing economic solutions through emotional arguments, instead of economic arguments.

    It apparently works.

  • Old Mexican||

    Re: DLM,

    It apparently works.


    Indeed. For instance: Tony.

  • Studebaker||

    Why didn't WE get bailouts?

  • American Motors||

    What Studebaker said!

  • Graham-Paige Motor Co.||

    Ditto! What the hell?

  • Pierce-Arrow||

    We didn't get one thin fucking dime in bailouts.

  • Kaiser-Frazer Motor Co.||

    Fucking skinflints.

  • Oakland Motor Cars||

    Word

  • Stanley Steam Cars||

    Is it time to go back to the future?! Is it?!

  • Willys Overland||

    Fuck off, Stanley! Your time came and went with the trains...

    Hey, wait a minute....

    *ponders "High Speed Rail"*

  • Hupp Motor Company||

    We didn't survive long enough to get fat WWII defense contracts.

    Plus, who'd want to buy a Hupmobile?

  • Tesla Motors (in about a year)||

    Can't we all just get along?

  • Preston Tucker Motors||

    The gov bailed out the big boys from having to deal with us, by calling us frauds and destroying our promising entry in to the market.

  • Old Mexican||

    Worse, it has unleashed a systemic moral hazard.


    Nooo!

    By bailing out GM, the administration rewarded its recklessness and penalized Ford's prudence.


    Which tells you that government policy is all about helping the little guy, as long as the "little guy" is an underachieving, enormous spendthrift.

  • MJ||

    You figured out their dirty little secret, now you will have to be liquidated.

  • 35N4P2BYY||

    Well this falls smack dab in the middle of NoDuhistain.

    Although, I wonder if a creative lawyer could turn this into some sort of quid pro quo corruption charge.

  • robc||

    Somehow, someway, I think roughly the same amount of cars would have been purchased. Which means someone would have taken up the manufacturering slack, possible by buying the factories and/or equipment.

    And the parts suppliers would have sold to those companies instead of GM/Chrysler.

    I dont see how anyone doesnt see this argument as complete bullshit.

  • T||

    Yes, but all those UAW contracts would have been invalidated in bankruptcy court. And we couldn't possibly do that to our good friends at the UAW.

  • ||

    an added benifit of a break-up of Gm would have been many smaller companies that could respond to market changes quicker. Except of course it's very hard for a small companies to meet the governments regulations. Once again regulation that requires to big to fail because nobody can afford to be small.

  • ||

    I'd love that. I'm already fascinated by all of the small companies that make specialty autos like fire engines and taxi cabs. A lot of those companies are really just brands now, but they used to be independent concerns.

    It would he interesting to see the standard component market that would support smaller auto companies.

  • ||

    Of course if they would have let them go bankrupt the companies could have gotten out from under their union contracts and emerged actually competitive. And lets fuck them some more by having our barbaric CAFE standards so no car company can just be in the business of making big cars. Nope, make sure every care company must produce low margin echo penalty boxes that no one wants and go straight to the rental fleets or end up sold at a loss just to get the CAFE numbers right. Then lets after all that wonder why the companies are still insolvent a forty or fifty billion tax payer dollars later.

  • Tman||

    And the news keeps getting worse for GM-

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/.....-cars.html

    Supply of Silverado has ballooned to 6 1/2 months worth at the dealership, a figure Frost, 52, calls “a little scary.” The Detroit-based automaker, 33 percent owned by the U.S. after its 2009 bankruptcy, has 280,000 Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups on dealers’ lots around the country. If sales continue at June’s rate, that would be enough to last until November.

    After GM’s truck inventory swelled to 122 days worth of average sales, the company said 100 to 110 will be normal going forward for such a large and complex line of vehicles, compared with 60 to 70 days for most models. Peter Nesvold, a Jefferies & Co. analyst, isn’t convinced. Ford Motor Co. (F), which makes similar trucks, is running at 79 days, and Nesvold says GM averaged 78 days on hand at year end from 2002 to 2010.

    “It’s unbelievable that after this huge taxpayer bailout and the bankruptcy that we’re right back to where we were,” Nesvold, who has a “hold” rating on the stock, said in a telephone interview. “There’s no credibility.” In a research note he asked: “Is GM falling into old, bad habits.

    So, floating a failing business with extra cash ($60 billion of taxpayer funds too!) did not somehow change said failing business in to a suddenly successful business.

    This was not difficult to predict, but sad nonetheless.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Denninger blogged about this earlier today, basically mocking these guys who can't seem to figure out why people aren't spending like gangbusters again.

  • ||

    Hacked!

    I don't recognize that backlog! Where's Jon Stewart to make teh funny?

  • Grandpa Whithers||

    While I didn't follow the trial, Casey Anthony has been foundguilty...of four counts of lying to the cops.

    And that's it.

  • ||

    That's fucked up. The defense couldn't have been more inept or done more to make it look like there was something to hide. Guess all the lies from everyone involved clouded any possibility of conviction.

  • Grandpa Whithers||

    I like the outcome because it makes the cable news folks look totally stupid.

  • West Texas||

    Both Fox and CNN are screechfests right now. Lots of yelling, lots of head shaking.

  • ||

    I would, except I'm highly doubtful that she didn't do what she was accused of.

  • ||

    I didn't follow this in any detail, but it looked to me like the prosecution couldn't put much evidence on of crucial elements (cause of death, anyone?), and overreached in what it did put on (crappy expert testimony on some elements).

    Plus, I found the short clips I watched of the prosecutors in action to be incredibly irritating. They seemed to traffic mostly in cheap histrionics, not a thing that good lawyers with a good case do.

  • ||

    My wife has been following this. Near as I can tell, the one thing that might have screwed up the case was that so many witnesses lied and were caught doing so.

    The defense counsel was an idiot. If she got off, it was despite his work.

  • ||

    What the hell is this case even about? I've seen it all over the papers and studiously ignored it as it was all clearly stupider than dirt.

  • ||

    A woman's three year old was missing for oh about a week before she bothered calling the cops. And then said three year old turned up dead and said women wound up in jail, charged and convicted in the court of Nancy Grace.

  • ||

    So I was entirely right to ignore it completely, as one should do with anything on the 24 hour--or local--news networks.

  • ||

    You were. She's a local girl, so it's hard to miss the news. The jury was selected in the county where I work.

  • ­||

    But then how are you going to know who Jennifer Anniston is dating?

  • ||

    Unless I'm missing my guess, I'd say Casey Anthony. In a couple of weeks.

  • ||

    Missing for 31 days and her mother called the cops.

  • ||

    Hey, who hasn't misplaced their toddler for a month or two? Do you really need to call the cops every time one of your children has disappeared for a month? A year sure. But a month she might have been out finding herself of something.

  • ||

    My favorite part of the trial was where she accused her father of sexually abusing her since she was a kid completely out of the blue.

  • ||

    What a circus. I can't watch trials. I critique them too much. Drive me crazy.

  • ||

    Did they manage to find some kind of TEAM RED TEAM BLUE angle as well? You know, to be full retard?

  • ||

    Oddly, there was almost no politics involved. Or religion for that matter.

  • ||

    Wow, I'm amazed. They usually can't resist the TEAM game.

  • Concerned Citizen||

    Yeah, I'm guessing she'll find the locks on the doors changed when she gets out and tries to go home.

  • Casey Anthony||

    Now I'm free to go and find the real killer. I'm focusing on local bars and tatoo parlors. Wish me luck!

  • West Texas||

    Not just that, but she continually made up different stories to her mom and dad about where the kid was and then (I think) it was her parents who got the cops involved.

    The kid was last seen with Casey at the parents' house, then the kids' body was found in the woods behind Casey's house.

    All in all, a big heaping pile of circumstantial evidence and conjecture, but Jesus Christ, who else could have done it?

  • ||

    Orenthal James Simpson?

  • Chris Rock||

    Orenthal James Simpson?

    The bus drivin' murderer!

  • ||

    Exactly.

  • Ska||

    Not a Jew.

  • ||

    All part of how TV and Hollywood make people stupid. TV and Hollywood tell people that circumstantial evidence is the weakest kind of evidence. In fact it is the strongest. Physical evidence can be tampered with or contaminated, and witnesses lie and are mistaken. But circumstantial evidence paints the accused into a statistical corner showing their guilt. You are right, how the hell could anyone else have done it?

  • creech||

    Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? Lizzy Borden? The CIA?

  • Mainer||

    All part of how TV and Hollywood make people stupid.

    Precisely.

  • jester||

    Historical precedent (before TV and Hollywood): Hetty Green successfully pulled off forgery and 'inherited' everything because the jury couldn't understand that it was mathematically impossible for two signatures to be exactly the same.

  • ||

    The big problem I had with the prosecution was that the body was found a block away from the house in an area that had been searched frequently for months. Oh, that and the fact that every search of Casey's person and property turned up nothing that wouldn't be commonly found in any parent's car...a little body fluids from their kid (sneeze?), a little blood in the back seat only (kids get cuts/scrapes) and the totally unprofessional prosecution they tried in the public arena in an attempt to corrupt the jury pool.

    Well guess what? Now she's free and there's nobody to blame but the inept prosecutors.

    Now she can get down to the serious business of negotiating her contract with playboy or penthouse.

  • ||

    The big problem I had with the prosecution was that the body was found a block away from the house in an area that had been searched frequently for months. Oh, that and the fact that every search of Casey's person and property turned up nothing that wouldn't be commonly found in any parent's car...a little body fluids from their kid (sneeze?), a little blood in the back seat only (kids get cuts/scrapes) and the totally unprofessional prosecution they tried in the public arena in an attempt to corrupt the jury pool.

    Well guess what? Now she's free and there's nobody to blame but the inept prosecutors.

    Now she can get down to the serious business of negotiating her contract with playboy or penthouse.

  • ||

    I'm figuring porn, with that teacher who got fired for being a bikini bunny on fishing trips.

  • ||

    I'm fine with that.

  • ||

    Between this and the never ending stream of Kate Middleton stories, is there any wonder we're $14T in debt?

    United States of the Retarded

  • ||

    "United States of the Retarded."

    Go away, batin'!

  • ||

    Month. Missing for a month, and her mom called the cops. She claimed it was a kidnapping (that she failed to report).

    At trial her attorney claimed it was an accidental drowning covered up by her and her father.

    The witnesses for the prosecution were horrific. The coroner testified that it is a medical fact that finding a body hidden proves murder. Might as well have said "prosecutors told me to find murder as cause of death".

    Defense was even worse. Speculation after prosecution's portion of the trial was that she might walk. After the defense put on its case, the consensus was her attorney put the needle back in his client's arm.

  • ||

    Possibly the worst defense in a high-profile case in decades. And the media will act like the defense was brilliant, instead of inept, not understanding the concept of burden of proof.

  • ||

    I only watched the closing arguments (ok, my parents were at their house), but I thought Baez did a good job - at least at that portion - with what thin gruel he had.

    The prosecution came off as fairly annoying.

    But the whole case was just a big cluster. I think the jury threw their hands in the air and went huh?!?!

  • ||

    Big error number one is alleging at alternative explanation then not presenting any substantive evidence of that explanation. Frankly, with all of the switcheroos they did on defense, I'm surprised the jury didn't convict just because of the feeling that all of the bullshit must've been to cover up something bad.

  • ||

    but I'll admit I was more interested in going to the beach so I wasn't exactly paying attention.

  • Paul||

    What the hell is this case even about? I've seen it all over the papers and studiously ignored it as it was all clearly stupider than dirt.

    Some hot chick killed... er, neglected to report for two months that her daughter had died tragically in the family pool-- and hid the body, or something. But she was totally innocent.

  • ||

    Oh, and she said the kid was kidnapped by "Zanny The Nanny." Worse fake name ever.

  • Paul||

    Oh, and she said the kid was kidnapped by "Zanny The Nanny." Worse fake name ever.

    Worked for two months and resulted in a non-guilty verdict. Now who's laughin?

  • ||

    Actually, "Zanny The Nanny" was what she was convicted on.

  • Paul||

    Actually, "Zanny The Nanny" was what she was convicted on.

    When facing the death penalty, it's a small price to pay. Zanny took one for the team.

  • ||

    Yes, that pretty much proves she was covering up something. How could they not at least get her for child abuse/neglect? Manslaughter? Ye gods.

  • Brett L||

    Best tag yet: Breaking News: FL Legalizes Post-Birth Abortion.

  • ||

    I still hate the "lying to the police," bullshit convictions.

    As if one can really tell the cops to go fuck themselves without getting charged with obstruction anyway. Sorry, but that charge was bullshit since she's under no obligation to help them yet they can shove her in the back of a squad car and drive her all over the state asking her to help them, lest she get the interference with a police investigation and the public tar-and-feathering that inevitably accompanies contempt of cop.

  • Paul||

    Oh, and she said the kid was kidnapped by "Zanny The Nanny." Worse fake name ever.

    That would be an awesome name for a band.

  • ||

    Jezebel

    Vacra!! Tue 05 Jul 2011 3:26 PM
    Dare I say it but I'm happy she was found not guilty. I felt as if the world was judging her actions like partying and being with her boyfriend when her daughter was missing/dead. Not everyone acts the same whilst in the midst of grief......I just feel as if we are going down a slippery slope where if someone doesn't "respond" the "normal" way that society expects they are automatically guilty.
    The jury found her not guilty therefore she is not a murderer end. of. story.
  • ||

    Yeah, because acting like you don't give a shit about the death of your child is consistent with something other than being complicit in the death in the first place.

  • Paul||

    Yeah, because acting like you don't give a shit about the death of your child is consistent with something other than being complicit in the death in the first place.

    You can't judge, Pro L. We're all individuals, grieving our own way.

  • idiots||

    "Yeah, because acting like you don't give a shit about the death of your child is consistent with something other than being complicit in the death in the first place."

    How presumptuous. Maybe's it's consistent with being an uncaring and callous asshole. I forget though, maybe you can help me with this vocabulary lesson - is that also another word for "murderer"? No? It isn't? Well, then surely being a callous asshole a crime in and of itself? WHAT!? IT'S NOT!?!?! WTF!!!!

    SHE WASN'T ON TRIAL FOR MOTHER OF THE YEAR DICK HEAD. I hate to break your white-bread mommy-in-apron fantasies, but there are tons of mothers who couldn't care less about their children, dead or not.

  • ||

    Actually, there really is a woman with the name she gave the cops. She denies ever having ever met Casey or any other Anthonys and is suing for defamation.

    There's some interesting speculation around that Casey fed the kid Xanax to put her to sleep while she went out to party.

  • ||

    there really is a woman with the name she gave the cops

    Awesome!

  • ||

    here

    I saw somewhere else that she made up the name by combining Zanny (short for Xanax) with the last name of someone she'd known in school. If that's so it the existence of someone with the same name with a connection, however tenuous, is an amzing coincidence.

    The cops apparently questioned the real Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez and are satisfied with her story. She is apparently exceedingly unhappy about becoming involved this way.

  • Almanian||

    "Now welcome to the Red Velvet Stage™ of Studio Four® in Windsor, the curvaceous and LOVELY....Zannnny the Nannnnnnny!!!"

    *boomchickaboomchickaboomchickaboomchickaboom*

    Sounds like an awesome stripper name...

  • idiots||

    The burden of proof is on the STATE you idiots - OH MY GOD A WOMAN LIKES PARTYING!!! CHILD MURDERER!!!! She wasn't on trial for "mother of the year" you fucking mouth breathing troglodytes. NO determined cause of death - NO evidence linking her to the body - NOTHING.

  • ||

    I didn't watch much of it. But from what I saw the Prosecution was relying on the "her kid died and she lied so she must have done it" theory. That would work with an unattractive defendant. But not with this defendant. You better have some proof beyond her kid is dead and she acted guilty.

  • ||

    There was also evidence that the guy who "found" the body "found" it more than once and tampered with the scene. The whole thing is just a spectacular cock-up.

  • ||

    I am telling you man, cute white chicks can get away with anything. Juries will not convict a cute white chick of killing her kids unless she unless there is a confession and no mitigation. And even then they will never give her the death penalty. Only black chicks and ugly chicks get the death penalty.

  • ||

    She did have a leg up in that they seemed to have botched the entire investigation and prosecution. Another black eye for Floridian jurisprudence.

  • Paul||

    Another black eye for Floridian jurisprudence.

    Another one? How many eyes for Floridian jurisprudence have?

  • ||

    Florida is the Argus Panoptes of states.

  • Paul||

    Any time I have to google a reference is a good day.

    Well played sir, well played.

  • oo||

    and ur point is?

  • ||

    Cute? Casey Anthony is a dawg.

  • Almanian||

    I've noted before on this site - I'd hit that HARD

  • Ethel Rosenberg||

    I beg to differ.

  • idiots||

    Can anyone show me some cases where any woman was convicted for murder based purely on her lying to the police, with NO direct, linking evidence? NO? Then I would suggest that you SHUT THE FUCK UP. SHUT. THE. FUCK. UP.

  • ||

    You better have some proof beyond her kid is dead and she acted guilty.

    Actually, I think they would have done a lot better if they had just gone with that. They spent weeks on all sorts of expert testimony that just added to the confusion. It was similar to the OJ Simpson trial in that they had a high profile case and in an effort to put a dot on every 'i' they over-detailed the case to death.

    An average juror probably wouldn't need more than "lady covered up the death of her daughter for more than a month and then told police it was a kidnapping for several more months, all while going out and partying with friends (beginning the day of her daughter's death)".

    That'd pretty much add up to guilt for most people.

    But they put on so much more added stuff that didn't speak directly to the events that they lost everyone. Sometimes more is less.

  • ||

    Yes. I remember I was in trial practice during the OJ trial. And the prosecution gave like a five hour opening. My prof was an old public defender. Total arrogant dick, but a great attorney who had done 1000s of trials. And told the class "if any of you ever give a five hour opening and are too stupid to explain your case in less than 30 or 40 minutes, deny you ever knew me or took my class".

  • ||

    From what I saw, I thought there was definitely too much 'science' junk for the average jury. I imagine their attention would wander...

  • Almanian||

    I think Cyto nailed it. Thought the defense were awful, and the prosecution worse. "We have little to no evidence, so instead of 'arguing emotion when we don't have the facts', we'll hit 'em with some MST3000 made-up shit! That'll be AWESOME!"

    Morons.

  • idiots||

    "We have little to no evidence" - interesting. So you concede that the prosecution had little evidence. You know, where I come from, generally things like "facts" (such as "casey anthony killed her child") are supported by this "evidence" thing. Now here's the crazy part - where I was taught, if there were little and/or NO evidence to support these "fact" things, THEN THEY PROBABLY WEREN'T FACTS AT ALL!!! OH MY GOD!!! Can you BELIEVE THAT!?

  • idiots||

    It's amazing - this magazine has articles all the time about moral hysteria and finger pointing; yet because this case involves some dead poop-and-puke-and-crying machine, it's time to point out how evil this woman is (AND ANY WOMAN WHO DOESN'T THINK OF THE CHOLDREN!!!134123)

  • ||

    They [the prosecutors] seemed to traffic mostly in cheap histrionics, not a thing that good lawyers with a good case do.


    That was what I heard every time i heard an excerpt too.

    Years ago, I sat on a jury for some poor sap on a DUI, also in Orange County, and the prosecutor in that case went off on the same sorts of rants.

    I remember thinking, dude, he's just a jerk who got stopped with a snootful and you acting like you're on the TV prosecuting a murderer being defended by Perry Mason.

    We ended up aquitting. I don't feel bad about letting a possible drunk go the way I would be agonizing over whether I had let a murderer go.

  • Ted S.||

    If the law isn't on your side, pound on the facts.

    If the facts aren't on your side, pound on the law.

    If neither the law nor the facts are on your side, pound on the table.

  • ||

    Supply of Silverado has ballooned to 6 1/2 months worth at the dealership, a figure Frost, 52, calls “a little scary.” The Detroit-based automaker, 33 percent owned by the U.S. after its 2009 bankruptcy, has 280,000 Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups on dealers’ lots around the country. If sales continue at June’s rate, that would be enough to last until November.

    Wait! You mean there are actually 280,000 people out there who would buy a Silverado or Sierra, either now or at any point in the future?

  • Sudden||

    Which, for the record, is probably a significant factor in Obama's decision to release gas from the petroleum reserve. He's planning on using the GM bailout as his master stroke of brilliance and running on that as a cornerstone economic policy of his. But he's gonna look like a fool if they can't sell their most profitable cars, the big trucks. So he's trying to tinker the price at the pump down temporarily so that more people will buy the gas guzzlers and make his "investment" look better.

  • Highway||

    Silverado is the best selling vehicle GM has, month in and month out. Generally, it's the second best selling vehicle in the US every month, behind the Ford F-Series.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    But combine the bailout and the heat we got off of 2009's Cash 4 Clunkers (which is going to kick in any day now), and the American auto industry is going to take off like a Toyota with a stuck throttle.

  • ||

    Excellent use of the mythical "stuck throttle" to underline your point about mythical stimulus.

    See folks, that's your key to quality writing: details matter. Your metaphors have to work on more than one level to reach the highest levels of.. er... something about good writing and stuff...

  • ||

    Yeah, a more accurate simile would be "take off like a Toyota with an idiot who can't tell the difference between the gas pedal and the brake behind the wheel."

    But that doesn't skip off the tongue so crispily.

  • ||

    No, but it's a fuck-load funnier.

  • ||

    It is very hard to convict cute white girls. It is very true. Had she been fat or minority, she would have been done. But juries love cute white girls. As soon as I saw her and saw that they didn't have a confession, I was betting on the defense.

  • Grandpa Whithers||

    They are saying she could be set free on Friday, which is great because then she can look for the real killers.

  • ||

    I bet she finds them at a wet t-shirt contest this weekend.

  • OJ||

    Tip #1: Golf courses are a good place to start and there are lots of those in Florida.

    She's going to be looking for a while, unfortunately.

  • rather||

  • Paul||

    They are saying she could be set free on Friday, which is great because then she

    Casey plays golf?

  • Old Mexican||

    Re: Paul,

    Casey plays golf?


    No, I believe she would work as a hole...

  • ||

    nice!

  • ||

    I can't exactly see her going free with four counts of lying to the cops.

    I'm not sure what the penalty is here but I doubt the judge will go with the minimum.

  • Paul||

    There's a wet tee-shirt contest coming up that she can't miss. Does Florida allow furloughs?

  • ||

    Time served?

  • Gray Ghost||

    Supposedly, each count carries a max penalty of one year in state prison. http://blogs.findlaw.com/blott.....ing-1.html

    They don't have to be served concurrently, but the Court needs to explicitly say they're to be served consecutively. http://statutes.laws.com/flori.....921/921_16

    So, 4 years max, less time served and whatever credits she'll get for any good behavior.

  • ||

    The lynch mob is in the streets and old Belvin Perry, circuit (circus) judge is up for a confirmation vote next year by state law.

    I'm not seeing this judge go easy here.

  • West Texas||

    She might be out of jail on Friday in time for happy hour! WOOOOOOO!

  • National Organization of Women||

    Who are you to deny her her right to a post-birth abortion?

  • ||

    COMMUNISM VS THE PLUTOCRACY OF HYPOCRISY - The Party or the
    [1 %] Elite

    [LadySmity 008 SAYS] : You' re so blinded by jealousy. Communism does
    NOT work .

    [HTS REPLYS]: No, we are not in fact jealous, and Communism has been,
    and is in fact working in many countries around the globe, Communism
    has done what Democracy has done taken many shapes as defined by
    those that select the Communist Form of Government, and it is not your
    cup of tea , well so be it we have stated any form or government is better
    than the One World Government of the American - Israeli Military
    Industrial Complex - the [EMPIRE] , it is our position that it is worth taking
    a new look at.

    [LadySmity 008 Says] : Putin recently warned Obama he is going down the
    wrong path, leading America into a communist state.

    [HTS REPLYS]: Putin is not the only person on the face of the planet to be
    warning the Emperor, and we disagree with Conrad [KGB] Putin, in fact
    this is about the One World Government of the [1 %] Elite of the Plutocracy
    of Hypocrisy, and it 's [Pure Jewish Apartheid State] Controllers.

    [LadySmity 008 Says] : It only causes EVERYONE to be poor. (Except the
    rulers who live lavishly on the taxes of the countryman 's taxes).

    [HTS SAYS]: Have you looked around in your own house and seen what is
    really going on, entire families are committing murder suicide, and that is
    not a sign that your own house is not in order, and the rulers, the [1 %]
    continue to live how lavishly [5 K ] Five Thousand [$ USD$ ] Shower
    curtains, a government leader with [50 K] Fifty Thousand in his freezer,
    your schools in decline, your infrastructure falling apart, while the
    [1 %] keep off shore accounts with untold amounts of money in them, and
    taxes what percent of your money is going to taxes, taxes at the store,
    taxes at the city, county, state, and government level, and now they want
    to place a tax upon sales made online but can' t come to some type of
    method that works to the greed level of those wanting that money . Before
    you put down Communism you better look at your own affairs, and sit
    down and figure what percent you' re really paying in taxes.

    [LadySmity 008 Says] The rich supply jobs and opportunity to the poor. If
    it weren 't for people with wealth, I wouldn' t have the means to feed
    myself and my family .

    [HTS REPLYS]: The rich with the aide of Clinton [Bubba ], shipped all the
    better paying jobs right out the [EMPIRE] , to not only Mexico, but China,
    India, Japan, and Vietnam, what type of automobile do you drive a
    [BMW] , Honda , etc , foreign made, while your tax dollar was spend on bail
    outs to auto firms that made poor quality automobiles forcing the
    purchase of better produced and in the long run cheaper foreign made
    products, your light bulbs are made in Brazil, were [GE] General Electric
    set up shop, were do you shop at Wally World products from a
    Communist Country well made and cheap, do you eat rice, it comes
    mainly from Vietnam yet another Communist Country . Mexico has [4 ]
    Communist Providences along your boarders. Communism is about
    keeping jobs in country but with a fair trade arrangement with others, and
    the wealth turned back to all the people and not into off shore accounts.
    The [1 %] are getting fatter and fatter as your wages remain flat, and with
    inflation added in are in decline, while the cost of your medical insurance
    is shifted to you to pay, while your children go to subpar schools with one
    in four coming out to no employments.
    LadySmity008 Says] are you employed by a poor person?

    [HTS REPLYS]: No, are you employed by a blood sucking Capitalist, who
    doesn't provide a living wage, but for many slave wages , who expects
    [24 /7 ] work , were your job is your life. Communism is not your cup of
    tea, and we accept that, but for others the choice between the [1 %] and
    Communism is equality over Capitalist Slavery. We respect Conrad Putin,
    but he came out of the Old Communism, there is now a New
    Communism, the Communist Manifesto was written in [1848 ], this is
    [2011 ], and the one thing that is always constant is change, there is a
    New Communism, one that has surpassed the [1776 ] Declaration of
    Independence, the New Communism speaks to a [21 st ] Century Peoples ,
    the [EMPIRE] speaks only to the [1 %] Masters of the New World Order.

    HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN

  • ||

    And people say we haven't been visited by Space Aliens.

  • ||

    Don't give up on LadySmity 008, man. I see potential there for the two of you.

  • Paul||

    I thought this was a thread about Casey Anthony?

  • sevo||

    Or Anthony Casey?

  • ||

    it is, if you squint hard enough

  • ||

    It's now just a generic thread about teh krazee!!!

  • ||

    Conrad Putin?!?

  • Almanian||

    Hercule, my man

    *raises solidarity fist*

  • Achtung Coma Baby||

    Nancy Grace: Cunt or Cunt-pickle?

  • ||

    Is there another, more insulting choice?

  • ||

    I'll try: is Nancy Grace really rectal?

  • Almanian||

    Yes. A thousand times - yes.

  • Alan Kellogg||

    When there is a need for something, it will be supplied. One supplier goes out of business, sooner rather than later a new supplier will arise to supply the needed thing.

  • ||

    The jury found her not guilty therefore she is not a murderer end. of. story.

    Someone else who does not understand that what actually happened and what a verdict says are not one and the same.

  • ||

    Yeah, I'm regularly shocked at how little people understand that being acquitted and being innocent are two entirely different things. OJ and this woman almost certainly did the crimes they were accused of. But the prosecution failed to convince the juries in each case that, beyond any reasonable doubt, the defendant committed the crime.

  • rather||

    Don't tell me that a guilty client walking never made you puke. The only thing the public can do is not buy the book:
    101 102 Things You Can Do With Duct Tape

  • Ironic||

    I think part of the problem is that in high schools they drill it into your head that "just because someone is arrested does not mean that person is guilty." true enough, and if they left it at that there might not be so much confussion. Problem is, too many teachers go on to equate being legally convicted with being actually guilty. They confuse law with fact. This is probably because most high school "social studies" teachers are boot licking state-worshipers.

  • ||

    Let's put it this way: Would you let her watch your kid?

  • Paul||

    Let's put it this way: Would you let her watch your kid?

    If I was really, really tired of my kid, yeah.

  • Old Mexican||

    Re: Pro Libertate,

    Let's put it this way: Would you let her watch your kid?


    She may well become the Baba Yaga of American folklore.

  • ||

    Bet she's already reserved that domain name.

  • Andrea Yates||

    like I'd notice

  • jester||

    Stupid hypothetical. She'd never be in that business anyway. I must say that our second national Barrabas (after OJ) thankfully is like the predecessor unlikely to be a repeat offender. That doesn't make any crime cute or precious or excusable, but I honestly wish our criminal justice system would concentrate on protection from violent dangerous repeat offenders instead of carrying out St. Peter's work of Final Judgement. That sentiment comes from realizing what we have to work with. Priorities, folks. I'm talking priorities.

  • ||

    The most telling sentence in this article is this one: "The bailout prepared GM and Chrysler to compete with the industry leaders of yesterday, not tomorrow."

    Ultimately, the UAW's friends in the whitehouse did them no favors. GM won't be able to compete in future markets with the cost structure they're stuck with (for now) and if the taxpayers finally decline to continue bailing out this company, eventually it will go broke. When that happens, I hope & pray the biggest players (the swill) in the unions will lose everything. (Of course, they won't since the big players are the best protected, but I can wish, can't I?)

  • ||

    This column is ridiculous - another attempt to ignore facts in order to take a broadside swipe at the labor force. My favorite two parts:

    1. That GM could have obtained private financing if management had only put together a bankruptcy program that didn't favor the unions. Since ee know that management lacked any competence or willingness to engage in any bankruptcy proceeding, that fantastical outcome would never have occured. Rhe management team at GM would have been more likely to drive the company into a Chapter 7 liquidation than admit their culpability and file for a voluntary Chapter 11 reorg.

    2. My favorite part - wait for it - the author is qualified to comment because he testified on the next panel. Classic.

  • ||

    weak. very weak. I expected better from you with a name like "politicspro"

  • ||

    Didn't feel like such a poorly written piece lacking in all logic deserved my best effort v

  • Mr. FIFY||

    You must have dubbed yourself a "pro". No one else would.

  • ||

    If you like this bailout you'll love the next one.

    Speaking of ridiculous, why can't the administration be honest about the details of the bailout? If saying that GM has paid back what it's borrowed based on not including borrowing that happened in the prior administration isn't lying what is?

  • Shorter PoliticsPro||

    Management bad. Union good.

  • ||

    No, shorter politics pro - people on this thread are radical right wing ideological morons who are driving the US to it's knees.

  • ||

    No, the unions have already done that.

  • West Texas||

    This is awesome, a pro sockpuppet who has no idea what "right wing" actually means.

    But he got the "radical" part right. Strange that the people who actually fancy themselves the keepers of revolution are most certainly the reactionaries these days, but it is what it is.

    wha wha wa wa wa wha wha RIGHT WING wha wa wa HAM SANDWICH!

  • ||

    Wha wha wha. Somebody disagrees with our far out radical fanaticism. Negative 6.2 GDP under Bush was good. Let's get back to wrecking economy. You guys are AWESOME!!! Its like a bad SNL skit.

  • anon||

    "Negative 6.2 GDP under Bush was good."

    As if any libertarian was happy with Bush. Try a meaningful argument, instead of vacuous, drive-by assertions. You know, the kind of reasoning we'd expect from a "pro," not the total noob you've shown yourself to be.

  • jester||

    The author DISCLOSED that she was a member of the panel which the czar chose not to face (for whatever reason.) Disclosure is not a declaration of possession of a qualified opinion. It merely alerts the reader of possible (probable) bias. You sir, or madam, are ridiculous.

    Furthermore, criticizing hypotheticals with your own hypotheticals is ridiculous. And by the way, there was no swipe at the labor force. There were swipes at labor contracts and labor unions. There is a difference.

  • ||

    What hypotheticals?

  • ||

    Which is why I will never, ever buy any type of vehicle from Government Motors or Chrysler/Fiat (Fix It Again Tony).

  • Old Mexican||

    Re: kj_ca,

    GM won't be able to compete in future markets with the cost structure they're stuck with (for now) and if the taxpayers finally decline to continue bailing out this company, eventually it will go broke.


    According to the economics illiterate and intellectually deficient (or "leftist boob," to put it more succinctly,) it will just be a question of placing sufficient restrictions and regulations on the competition of GM and Chrysler to make the latter competitive in the US market, since it is obvious that companies like Hyundai and Kia are "exploiting" their workers by not allowing them the paradise that is Card-check. You'll see later what I am talking about.

  • ||

    No need for leftist boobs to put any kind of restrictions on competition. Toyota has done a fine job of tarnishing it's own reputation and, as it looks right now, GM will surpass them as number 1 brand by volume in 2011. It's too bad right wing partisan schtick so rarely aligns with pesky facts and data

  • Shorter PoliticsPro||

    GM stock was a great investment!

  • jester||

    'by volume' is the important statistic, because it really doesn't matter if price is less than cost? really?

  • ||

    You really are a jester if you believe GM is selling cars for less than cost.

  • ||

    If only writers would have their facts in order before attempting to make an argument. This writer attempts to equate the Delphi bankrupcy with the bailout of GM and Chrysler. Delphi filed for bankruptcy in 2005 long before the Bush administration put the first money into GM and Chrysler because they had confirmed that no private funding was available for a restructuring of the two Companies. This article is an example of making up a set of facts to prove an opinion. As Daniel Patrick Moynihan stated; you are entitled to your own opinion; you are not entitled to your own set of facts.

  • ||

    Ah, Joe, Joe, Joe...don't you understand by now that the free marketeers had it all figured out. A GM bureaucracy, that had avoided Chapter 11 bankruptcy like the plague, was going to suddenly and magically wake up one day, realize they could simply organize a bankruptcy proceeding and unlock financial markets that had seized up under a Bush administration that gave us negative 6.2 GDP growth in q4 2008 even as it presided over a worse financial crisis than the great depression. The idiotic lack of reason on this article is breathtaking. The truth is, Republican economic policy nearly destroyed western capitalism, Obama saved it and, instead of a simple thank you, radical righties want to explain that had we only allowed capitalism to be destroyed by Bush, we'd all be ok. The lack of thinking behind the average right wing poster would be comical were stakes not so high.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    "Obama saved it"

    You, sir, are a fucking tool.

  • ||

    Clever comeback. As lacking in merit as in articulation. Do you ever tire of being wrong?

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    It's amusing how every time one of these coffeehouse revolutionaries show up claiming Obama saved the economy, they never have the actual data to prove it.

  • Shorter PoliticsPro||

    It's Bush's fault!

  • jester||

    I agree with you, given your world view, none of what was expounded in this article would be possible. Your world view is different from mine and many other commenters here.

    Your inadequate postings, surely respecting standards of brevity, fail to expound anything worthwhile and come across as partisan cheerleader babble. Perhaps you should better spend your time writing a book that would give your musings a fair shake.

  • The New Guy||

    "....The truth is, Republican economic policy nearly destroyed western capitalism, Obama saved it and...."

    WOW! That IS nefarious. And all along I thought GM and Chrysler suffered from bad management, too high union labor costs, and shitty cars that didn't sell well. Thanks for clearing that up!

  • ||

    There is only one candidate in the race who has a credible idea for eliminating the deficit, and not ten years from now, but today. He isn't well known but will be. Check out his "about us" page--he's been a soldier, a businessman, and is currently a teacher. A citizen president? Follow the links to his writings and see if he doesn't make sense. His ideas are based on common sense and logic. Best of all, he's not in anybody's pocket. www.gradyforpresident.com.

  • ||

    Grady Wilson: She can't stay here, because there isn't any room.
    Aunt Esther: That's what they told the baby Jesus but they found him a place.
    Grady Wilson: Okay, I'll build you a little manger out in the back yard and get you some sheep to sleep with.

  • ||

    I'd follow the links, but my boss gets really, really pissed off when I download a virus or worm.

  • ||

    Had this administration turned a deaf ear to union leadership and allowed the car companies to file for restructing, they would have been able to renegotiate contracts to both streamline the assembly line and to make union members fair participants in their retirement and benefits packages. Instead, the same Obama mentality that allowed him to side with unions on the immigration issues during the Bush administration, made him take their side even in the face of secondary failure down the road. All he did was put a bandaid on a gash. Down the road GM and Chrysler will have to make decisions on car models, sales lots and more that will be hampered because they cannot cut union members without closing entire factories. Currently GM offerings give no profit because in order to price them competitively, they have to meet what is coming in from overseas and from domestic plants that have more pragmatic workforce compensation. This is a "fail" along with Cash for Clunkers, the Mysterious Healthcare Bill and countless other style over substance actions of this administration. We need change, real change not this false kind.

  • Almanian||

    Again - the parts come in, cars go out - you can't explain that.

  • ONNTA||

    God, this and the no apologies for free trade bullshit, you guys are thugging out hard core today. It must be nice to have someone else use force for you, gives you the illusion of having clean hands. But slavery and murder in support of your beliefs makes you just as dirty as them.

  • ||

    It's hard to understand how the federal government, in rewarding one company (GM) at the expense of clearly identified competitors (Ford, Toyota etc.) can be legal given the constitution's ban on Bill of Attainder. I've never understood why that point never emerged.

  • ||

    Well at least Obama didn't blatantly favor unions at the expense of everyone else. /sarcasm

    It is only fitting because they are the very entity that drove the domestic auto industry into the ditch. The federal government has become a massive criminal enterprise.

  • Alex Scipio||

    Unions - Industrial Age relics in an Information Age nation. As out of place as a buggy-whip at the Indianapolis 500 - or a shuttle launch.

  • ||

    I thought a shuttle launch WAS an industrial age relic.

  • jester||

    You're giving unions a lot of credit. You're suggesting that they've ever had a use that was reputable.

  • ||

    politicspro, i would love to see your evidence that gm management preferred chap 7 to chap 11, or that it wanted to "avoid chap 11 like the plague".

  • jester||

    Exactly. Didn't a certain Francisco Lorenzo once use Chap 11 as a way to bust unions?

  • ||

    Their stated unwillingness repeatedly to enter Chapter 11. CEO Rick Wagner was on the record saying they would not declare Chapter 11 due to their concern it would destroy the brand and ability to sell cars. This was well known, frequently states position of GM's CEO.m until moments before his resignation. But why let the positions of the company's management cloud a good screed from out of touch righties.

  • jester||

    When push gives way to shove, CEOs resign or are forced to resign and sense prevails. No one is defending GM management here. It was that management (Wagoner, sic) that agreed to union contracts and lining his own belt. No love for him here.

    I feel that you underestimate the stakes at hand, and that as you agree, with the brand was too important to fail, it wasn't going to disappear in parts. Give me a break.

    You may be a a fan of Obama. But calling this heroic action is hyperbole most of us call pure bullshit.

  • jester||

    And I might add that Rick Wagoner was the kind of CEO the Left loved. Sad part was that he put the company in his stewardship in a world of harm.

    Funny parallels could be drawn from this.

  • ||

    Failed businesses should fail, not be kept alive to provide sinecures for people connected to the administration.

    If somehow they can be saved, fine. If not liquidate them.

  • ||

    Aren't bankruptcy laws real laws that are supposed to be obeyed? Or are they just suggestions? How can the chief executive who is supposed to enforce the laws of the land willy-nilly pick and choose which laws to observe, which to ignore, and which to flat-out violate? Can't Obama be prosecuted - or at least impeached - for high crimes and misdemeanors? What's the point of having laws if some elected moron can violate them without consequence? If Obama can get away with this, why not just declare himself emperor for life? What the heck is going on? Inquiring minds want to know.

  • ||

    Run for the hills, teabaggers!

  • ||

    What the hell are you smoking ? The auto bailout was a huge success for everyone. Oh wait -- I get it -- your view is that it FAILED...to FAIL ! You guys want President Obama to fail, no mater what the cost to America. Disgusting and utterly evil.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Auto dealers having months worth of backstock on their lots is a success?

    Perhaps you missed this:

    "General Motors Co. (GM) stocked Jim Ellis Chevrolet in Atlanta with plenty of Silverado full-size pickups in early 2011, part of a wager on a strong economic recovery. The strategy is backfiring.

    “We thought that this year would bring back the kind of economic activity that would translate into us selling more trucks,” Mark Frost, the dealership’s general manager, said in a phone interview. “It’s not happening.”

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/.....-cars.html

    You guys want President Obama to fail, no mater what the cost to America. Disgusting and utterly evil.

    Obama "succeeding" is costing America $1.5 trillion a year in debt. The only thing that's disgusting is little greasy thieves like you that need the government to rob from people because you're too much of a coward to do it yourself. Thug gang-bangers in the ghetto have more integrity than you do.

  • ||

    A yes, start out with calling me a name. Clever. I guess I'll have to retaliate in kind. It's amusing every time one of these right ring radical goofballs attacks someone's argument, they ignore all fact and resort to name calling. Ok, now that we've got the pleasantries out if the way, a few facts (I'll start small abs slow so I don't short circuit your brain)

    1. GDP in Bushe's last quarter as president -6.2 percent annualized. Under Obama, nearly 3 percent.

    2. Net job creation in 8 year Bush presidency - 1 million jobs. Net job creation in
    Past 6 months - more than 1 million jobs.

    3. Income tax rates under Bush higher than under Obama.

    4. Socialist president who initiated TARP - Geirge W. Bush. President who saved capitalism and US influence - Obama.

    Red Rocks - do you and your right wing nut job pals a favor and call it a night. It's late and you sound goofier, less informed and more like the economic destruction lemmings you ate when you try and make your pathetic arguments.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    1. GDP in Bushe's last quarter as president -6.2 percent annualized. Under Obama, nearly 3 percent.

    Uhh, that GDP number has been the result of massive deficit spending, not real economic growth.

    http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=189393

    2. Net job creation in 8 year Bush presidency - 1 million jobs. Net job creation in
    Past 6 months - more than 1 million jobs.

    The employment-to population ratio is the worst it's been in 30 years, according to the BLS "A" tables, and hasn't even risen to the troughs of the dotbomb recession.

    Add to this, the fact that there are record numbers of people on food stamps, long-term unemployment remains in the 30-40% range, and unemployment claims remain above 400,000 a week, and only a stupid prog like yourself will believe that things have improved.

    3. Income tax rates under Bush higher than under Obama.

    The Bush tax rates remain in force, and the "tax cut" in the "stimulus" was in fact a tax credit, paid for via deficit spending--you know, part of the structural deficit you're so proud of.

    4. Socialist president who initiated TARP - Geirge W. Bush. President who saved capitalism and US influence - Obama.

    Senator who voted for TARP - Obama. And US influence is so high, of course, that Iraq and Afghanistan are just begging us to stay there another 10 years or more, and countries are lining up once more to support our efforts...wait, stop laughing.

    Tell you what, Politicspro--do your left-wing friends a favor and come back when you have some actual hard data to back up your bullshit.

  • ||

    Awesome set of lane comebacks. If your noronic replies are to be taken seriously, I'm to understand that -6.2 GDP shrinkage under Bush, who, incidentally, doubled the national debt (a debt that has grown at a faster rate under Republican presidents than Dems) is preferable to any growth under Obama? As to the tax rate issue, in addition to retaining the Bush cuts, Obama included a payroll tax deduction, still in force, as part of the stimulus package. As to whether Obama voted for TARP, it was socialist GWB who pushed it to safe the economy his policies has wrecked. Your lane conclusion that I'm on the left us laughable and stupid. You are forced to support GWB's redistributionist policies even as you claim to be what? A lefty since you support a socialist? A constitutionalist? No evidence of that. More likely just another blathering idiot right wing radical focused on paying no taxes even as you suck the system dry using roads, highways and other services that we all pay for. Oh, there is a characterization for that - welfare sponge. You sir, are a dope with poor hyperpartisan arguments.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    If your noronic replies are to be taken seriously, I'm to understand that -6.2 GDP shrinkage under Bush

    Wow, you're so bent out of shape you can't even spell consistently. And you do realize that Bush used the same device to grow the economy prior to the great drop--deficit spending--that Obama's using, correct?

    As to the tax rate issue, in addition to retaining the Bush cuts, Obama included a payroll tax deduction, still in force, as part of the stimulus package.

    The payroll reduction was never part of the stimulus package, you dope--it was included as part of a deal with the new Republican congress when the Bush tax rates were about to expire.

    Your lane conclusion that I'm on the left us laughable and stupid.

    Yeah, it is pretty funny how when I provided actual data and sources, you went straight back to your talking points.

    More likely just another blathering idiot right wing radical focused on paying no taxes even as you suck the system dry using roads, highways and other services that we all pay for.

    Translation: "ROADS! ROADS! ROADS! A BLOO BLOO BLOO!!"

    You sir, are a dope with poor hyperpartisan arguments.

    A record number of people on food stamps, the lowest employment to population ratio in 30 years, $1.5 trillion in structural deficits, 30-40% long-term unemployment, and 400,000+ unemployment claims a week is a hyperpartisan argument?

    Seriously, you little bitch, go back and powwow with your little librage clique, get some hard data to rebut those numbers, and then come back and try again. You're sounding like Rain Man.

  • ||

    Long post and all stupid, uninformed radicalized right wing pap and absolutely no factual basis for any of the replies. Good stuff from a righty welfare sponge.

  • ||

    My noronic posts may be getting shorter but they have lost none of their disciplined, mature, non-partisan content. Fun, fun, fun you rightly welfare sponge!

  • ||

    Translation: Anything longer than 2 lines with data I can't dump into the talking point hole must be ignored. I'll just say it has "no factual basis" and leave it at that. Then I'll call you a welfare sponge for good measure.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Long post and all stupid, uninformed radicalized right wing pap and absolutely no factual basis for any of the replies.

    "DATA FROM THE BLS HAS NO FACTUAL BASIS A BLOO BLOO BLOO!"

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    And by the way, you little SWPL twink, if Obama saved the economy, there wouldn't be any need to worry about the debt ceiling, the budget, or the deficit, now would there?

    If he had saved the economy, he wouldn't need to beg businesses to start hiring again, now would he?

    Do you believe everything your idiot professors tell you?

  • ||

    Ah, that's its, now that you've been revealed for the supporter of right wing engineered socialism that you are, resort to name calling. Awesome comeback. The answer to your dumb as rocks debt ceiling question is yes, we would still be raising it to cover the trillions of dollars in debt amassed under Bush 1, 2 and Reagan. We've raised the debt ceiling under every president since the law was enacted in WW 1. But they don't tell you that on Faux Noise, so they. They simply instruct lemming like morons that you can gave everything you want and lay for nothing - the definition of a welfare sponge.

  • ||

    Awesome comeback! Awesome comeback! Na na na na! Right wing social engineering! Na na na na! Dumb as rocks! Right wing extremist! Na na na na! Every Right Winger president is responsible for the debt! Not the capitalists Pelosi, Reid and Obama! Na na na! Dumb as rocks! Extremist!

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    The answer to your dumb as rocks debt ceiling question is yes, we would still be raising it to cover the trillions of dollars in debt amassed under Bush 1, 2 and Reagan.

    You don't have to raise the debt ceiling if you run an actual surplus, you idiot. Obama could have done that by going back to 2003 spending levels, but he and the rest of the Dems never even bothered to produce a fucking budget last year, now did they?

  • ||

    Then by your logic, we should return to Clinton era policies. Tangle yourself in a pretzel over that one now you right wing radicalized welfare sponge.

    Nor sure what's funniest: your defenseless, poorly reasoned hyperpartisan arguments or your hyperventilating contradictions. Keep talking...

  • ||

    Keep talking, I'm actually winning by not responding to any of the data you cite. You noronic, Bushe right wing radicalized in an echo chamber welfare hyperpartisan defenseless contradicting sponge. Keep talking! I'm enjoying my victory more and more!

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Then by your logic, we should return to Clinton era policies.

    Going back to 2003 spending levels at the current tax rate is a Clinton-era policy?

    I'm not sure what's funnier: your lack of rebuttal of any actual data presented, the poorly reasoned hyperpartisan arguments, the parroted talking points, or your complete lack of self-awareness. Keep pozzing...

  • ||

    I'd love to take time and reply in support of my chartable endeavor - "Help a Radicalized Moron.". Sadly, though, I must check out for now so o can go back to earning a living and paying taxes to support paying for social programs that right wing sponges like you live off. I'm guessing you have to get back to either watching Uncles Beck or Hannity tell you what to think or cherry picking convenient stats to paste together to support your illogical pap. Get along now :). Btw, your latest arguments, stringing together nonsensical sentences and using newly created words like Bloo, Bloo, Bloo are especially impressive and give me great hope for our future. With geniuses like you doing the thinking, we're all set.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    I'd love to take time and reply in support of my chartable endeavor - "Help a Radicalized Moron."

    Even the most charitable doctor can see there's little help for you, twink.

    I'm guessing you have to get back to either watching Uncles Beck or Hannity tell you what to think

    The left sure does seem obsessed with the idea of media figures telling people what to think. It's typically the fall-back position they adopt when they can't refute acutal facts and figures, as you've failed to do time after time.

    Sadly, though, I must check out for now so o can go back to earning a living and paying taxes to support paying for social programs that right wing sponges like you live off.

    I didn't realize that city dumpster-washers made enough to actually pay taxes.

    cherry picking convenient stats to paste together to support your illogical pap.

    LOL at this. You cited one statistic that was easily refuted by accounting for the deficit spending, and the rest you have yet to actually address. Have fun trying to pay off your student loans while you're picking up dog crap for your local municipality's actual achievers.

  • ||

    This must be your first visit to Hit and Run if you think there are any George Bush fans here.

    Typical thinking. If you criticize Obama you must loove Bush.

  • ||

    Obama rules! Booosh drools!

  • ||

    Dopey guy who can't think of own handle posts idiotic unfunny one liners.

  • ||

    Let me grab the washcloth. The spittle on the screen is making it tough for me to admire my incisive points and my post 3rd grade name calling arsenal.

  • l0b0t||

    Not just PWND, but FACTPWND!!!!1111!!!!

  • ||

    Obama is our kind of capitalist.

  • ||

    Shikha,

    Your analysis is completely incorrect. I worked at a distressed hedge fund over the period and we were investors in the bonds of the auto companies. If the government wasn't involved, there would have been a wholesale liquidation of the companies - they didn't have the time or ability to get private financing in bankruptcy court to avoid a liquidation - the task force did save the companies and the suppliers. As for the credits not getting paid in full, this was completely in proper form of a 363 sale, which is why the supreme court ruled it was completely lawful. There has been no impact on the ability of auto companies or any other to get funds as a result of the governments actions - credit spreads are better now than they were. You're speaking in an area you don't have any understanding.

  • tarran||

    they didn't have the time or ability to get private financing in bankruptcy court to avoid a liquidation

    How so? It is my understanding that if creditors want to force a bankrupcy proceeding they have to go to court to do so, and there is a hearing with plenty of time for the management to prepare a rebuttal.

    Having worked at LTV steel as it slid into chapter 11 and thence into Chapter 7, your claims just don't jibe with my experience of how bankruptcy works.

  • ||

    Obama and the extreme left believe that the auto bailouts were a success, because for their political purposes they were. Yes it wasted tens of billions of dollars more than the regular bankrupcy process would have, but it served as a giant payoff to the auto, and other unions, for their support of Obama in 2008, and guaranteed Obama their support going into 2012. And compared to Obama's trillions in other wasted corrupt spending it was relatively cheap!

  • Arlen Sphincter||

    21,000 salaried take it up the ying-yang, sold out in nakedly political (more like totalitarian) executive disregard to established bankruptcy law. O had to carry the bag for his loyal goons who elected him, screw the managers.

    I didn't know about those poor salaried SOB's. Like pus oozing from a maggot-infested sore, new revelations of this administration's corruption just keep flowing.

  • Michael Ejercito||

    Bailing out people who lost a thousand dollars in blackjack tables in Las Vegas would have been much less a waste of money.

  • ||

    Hmmm, why do sockpuppets wander out on to the libertarian planes where they will surely be devoured whole? Please politics pro come back with more talking points (and sweet cherry picked data)and try to climb Sisyphus's hill again.

  • ||

    And allow you all to continue blathering nonsense in tour radicalized echo chamber. I will eventually rage your advice, but now it's too much fun sparring with a bunch of whiny, out if the mainstream lamoids. Btw, was libertarian always a metaphor for people who want to lay for nothing and sponge off the public. I thought that was what we called welfare cases. Or have you all stolen that title along with everything else you take for free?

  • ||

    You WILL read my posts!!!! And you will be shamed!!!

  • ||

    I am having fun! Really! I don't just say that as some kind of sophomoric rhetorical device to make you wear the hat of shame! I am having fun! And you will hate yourself because I am having fun! Fun! Fun! Fun!

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    I'll admit it certainly is fun seeing what you dorm-room welfare cases are being taught in college these days.

  • misslins||

    The auto bailout was a huge success for everyone. Oh wait -- I get it -- your view is that it FAILED...to FAIL ! You guys want President Obama to fail, no mater what the cost to America. Disgusting and utterly evil.
    Here are some tips shared by http://www.goodluckbuy.com/ one of the worldwide B2C top sellers in selling the coolest gadgets with light-speed service and wholesale prices to all geeks/non-geeks around the planet. Appears to be coming directly from the Hong Kong suppliers with FREE SHIPPING!
    Goodluckbuy: Perfect Shop For Electronic Gadgets

  • christian louboutins||

    Goodluckbuy: Perfect Shop For Electronic Gadgets

  • ||

    It's morning in Omerica.

    12:37 AM to be exact.

    Arugula in every pot and a Volt in every garage.

  • ||

    Politicspro is unavailable for highly informative and coherent comments at the moment. You noronic, lane, Bushe loving welfare sponges will just have to wait as he unplugs the toilet just off the faculty lounge.

  • ||

    Good one from the guy who can't even think up his own handle! I'm impressed. Now go wash the dirt off tour knuckles and get back to your flat earth society meeting.

  • l0b0t||

    So, according to Politicspro, we are all Bush loving, Young-Earth creationists.
    Thanks Politicspro, I hadn't realized this until you pointed it out, you sure have PWND us. FACTPWND!!!111!!!

  • ||

    Looks like Toyota want to imitate GM in all sectors from what I read at http://www.cbc.ca/news/busines.....grade.html

  • ||

    ,::: I paid $32.67 for a XBOX 360 and my mom got a 17 inch Toshibalaptop for $94.83 being delivered to our house tomorrow by fedex. I will never again pay expensive retail prices at stores.I even sold a 46 inch HDTV to my boss for $650 and it only cost me $52.78 to get. Here is the website we using to get all this stuff, BuzzSave.com

  • nike shoes UK||

    is good

  • قبلة الوداع||

    thank u

GET REASON MAGAZINE

Get Reason's print or digital edition before it’s posted online

  • Progressive Puritans: From e-cigs to sex classifieds, the once transgressive left wants to criminalize fun.
  • Port Authoritarians: Chris Christie’s Bridgegate scandal
  • The Menace of Secret Government: Obama’s proposed intelligence reforms don’t safeguard civil liberties

SUBSCRIBE

advertisement