The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
One Way to Think About the Don Lemon Prosecution
It's a pretty obvious way to think about it, but I thought it might be the sort of obvious that was still worth making explicit:
Imagine a right-wing advocacy group is very upset about a mosque, because it thinks one of the imams is a supporter of anti-American Islamic extremism.
They go to the mosque in the middle of services, and start shouting "the time for Judgment had come," blowing whistles, chanting "Muslim Extremists Out!," "Remember 9/11!," and the like. They approach the imam and congregants in a way that some perceive as menacing, and loudly berate the imam with questions about jihadism and Muslims wanting to implement Sharia.
They chant, "This ain't God's house. This is the house of the devil." They approach a female congregant, who is there with two young children, and demand to know in an allegedly hostile manner why she doesn't support the protesters. They call people "Nazis," and ask children, "Do you know your parents are Nazis? They're going to burn in hell."
They block the stairs leading to the mosque's childcare area and make it difficult and allegedly hazardous for parents to retrieve their children. After causing most of the congregants to flee, some of them chant, "Who shut this down? We shut this down!"
There's a person accompanying them to livestream the events to his large audience. He's generally politically aligned with their message, so there's reason to think he shares their goals. He understands the whole point of what the other defendants were doing is to make things "traumatic and uncomfortable" for the congregants: He tells his viewers that "the whole point of [the operation] is to disrupt."
While the intrusion is happening, he asks one of the disrupters, "Who is the person that we should talk to? Is there an imam or something?" He joins the others in approaching the imam and largely surrounding him, standing close to him and peppering him with questions. He doesn't leave when the imam asks him to leave. He stands at the main door of the mosque, where he confronts some congregants and allegedly physically obstructs them as they try to exit the mosque to challenge them with what he says are "facts" about extremist Islam.
Before the incident, he had met all the other defendants for a pre-op briefing, during which the organizers advised the other defendants and him that their operation would target the mosque, and provide instruction on how the operation would be conducted. He is careful to maintain operational secrecy by reminding his driver not to disclose the target of the operation, and he steps away briefly during the planning session so his microphone wouldn't accidentally divulge certain portions of what the planners are saying. He assures the other defendants that he won't prematurely disclose the target of the operation.
Would you be inclined to think that the livestreamer is guilty of conspiring with others to physically obstruct the worship services? Or would you say that there isn't enough evidence of conspiracy, which is to say (to oversimplify) an express or implied agreement to act in concert in order to accomplish the disruption?
As you might gather, the hypothetical facts above are closely drawn from the allegations (which of course at this point are just allegations) in the Don Lemon indictment (see here and here), but changed to reflect the hypothetical right-wing disruption of the mosque rather than a left-wing disruption of a church.
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If true, the allegations against Lemon paint him as a member of the group providing PR and media consultation.
He’s not a bystanding journalist.
But I get that unbiased journalism is an unfamiliar concept these days.
I don't believe journalism has to be unbiased. It should, however, not participate actively, if you want to rely on some kind of observer only status, anyway, as here.
He livestreamed himself doing almost everything described here, so it shouldn't be very controversial on that end.
I would certainly think his use of "we" (if that is indeed true) when describing the on-going events would allow a jury, if so inclined, to attribute common enterprise to Lemon.
And now assume they were going to kidnap the imam instead of just disrupting the service. Is he still just there to “report”?
whats funny is the guy they were after wasn't even in the area. So its just disrupting a bunch of people who probably had no involvement.
Nicely done. I agree this is the right way to think about it - whatever you think the right solution is, it should be the same for both.
Yup. Before this I was fully in favor of prosecuting Lemon.
Put the professor’s analogy does make you think.
Or some right-wing Christian group plans a protest at a church with a pastor who serves in an agency during a liberal president's administration that helps promote abortion rights. A conservative journalist goes along with them to document it.
Professor Volokh forgot an old legal doctrine:
Lex cuius bos perforatur.
The law of whose ox is being gored.
It might be a weird foreign idea, but have you guys considered deciding questions like this based on the actual evidence of each case?
You mean like, if the accused is white and the victim black, you get one outcome, but if the accused is black and the victim white, you get a different outcome?
Yeah, we tried that.
The "actual evidence of each case" is insufficient. Deciding questions like this requires us to understand both the law and the facts. EV is explaining what the law means by "conspiracy." Or at leats providing us with an illustration of what sort of considerations are relevant to what the law thinks 'conspiracy' consists of.
You mean the fact it was a Christian church and not a Mosque should make a difference?
Nobody has the right to trespass, terrorize congregants at a church, make fools of themselves, act like the klan come to town.....
And holding a cellphone and claiming to be a journalist? That lets all the J6 political prisoners off.
1. You're ignorant of the J6 charges.
2. Trespass isn't the theory here.
3. No one is making a rights argument thusfar - the issue is the facts don't fit the statute.
1) he also yelled at the driver (alleged) go now or something. If true, that's coordination.
2) We all highly suspected he coordinated / conspired with this group. I expect chances are high that find damning evidence of such if they decide to look.
Let's do another hypo - for the purposes of determining if Lemon was a co-conspirator, the crime being committed shouldn't matter.
Suppose tha instead of conspiring to violate 18 U.S. Code § 248, the conspirators were planning to violate 10 U.S. Code § 920b - Art. 120b.
They call Lemon in advance, tell him of their plans, swear him to secrecy. As they gather outside a playground, Lemon jokes with them, hands out coffee and donuts, tells his audience he's turning off the camera so the location wouldn't be disclosed. Then as his co-conspirators rape a child, Lemon goes to interview the nanny and asks her what she thinks of the acts being committed.
Still think he's not a co-conspirator?
Adding in emotionalism and nothing else is a great way to make a shitty hypo and argue for bad law.
If you had an actual counter argument, you'd make it.
That is my counterargument. You've created a fraught situation that did nothing to elucidate the law. You just switched the issue to the philosophy of criminal law. Specifically the difference between the law and justice.
Going from the facts to a fucking rape is so different in kind you've turned it into the Kitty Genovese discussion all over again, and no longer about Lemon at all.
I think it's an OK hypo though as Sarcastro says it doesn't to be kiddie rape to make the point. Why don't we just do something like an arson ? A group of people decide to go and burn down a CO2 belching factory / an abortion clinic, and a journalist goes along for the ride.
Let us avoid supposing that the journalist shares the politics of the arsonists. All he does - in return for being told of where the arson is to take place, is promise the arsonists that he will not reveal their plan, nor record or reveal any identifying details of the perps, nor offer the cops any assistance, and that he will ensure their justificatory statement is published with his story.
On the basis that I know zilch about the law of conspiracy, I would say that morally he is a conspirator. He has made a trade (a tip off in exchange for keeping identities secret, and publishing their message) with the arsonists, which assists them in achieving their object - a burned factory / abortion clinic, plus pictures thereof published, plus their justificatory publicity.
If, as it happens, the journalist's story is not sympathetic to the arsonists, I shouldn't have thought it matters. He has helped them achieve their criminal act, and publicity for it, and sheltered them from punishment.
To me the essential thing is that he has made a deal with them which assists them. If he had merely found out about their plan by hearing them discussing it in a bar, and had made them no promises, but chose not to alert the cops, and chose not to reveal faces and identities, and had written the same story, I wouldn't say he'd conspired with them.
Bit I'd be interested in what the law thinks.
I think he's guilty for his conduct blocking the pastor's freedom of movement, and for refusing to leave when asked to and for his conduct in blocking parishioners as they attempted to leave. I think his hostile questioning and cooperation with the other intruders is evidence of his intent to harass when blocking the pastor and the parishioners. He can't be prosecuted for not warning the church or the authorities about the plan or for passively recording the incident without interfering with anyone's freedom of movement or for questioning the pastor or the parishioners to the extent that the manner of his questioning did not deprive them of their freedom of movement or the substance of his questions did not purposely put them in fear for their safety.
No. This scenario changes nothing. Go after the protesters, but not the journalists reporting on the protest.
But he was both
He didn't protest. No one suggests he did.
That's why we're getting bank shots like 'involved with the group' and 'knew about what was gonna happen' and 'gave out donuts beforehand.'
Right he just blocked people from fleeing amd was part of the group that encircled and blocked the pastor.
Bank shot!!!
Don't forget "conspired with the protestors to violate the civil rights of the congregants."
Molly thinks it is okay and not a crime for Lemon to block people from fleeing.
So Trump who didn't participate or tell people to break into the Capitol is completely responsible for J6 but Lemon who directly participated to the point of coordinating and physically accosting the victims is not responsible at all?
Wow you really need an impressive diagram to chart out the leftoid philosophy on casuality.
Sure, Trump didn't encourage his faithful followers to assemble in DC for what he promised would be "wild," and then when they were assembled on the Capitol grounds tell them that the future of our country was dependent on their marching up the hill behind them and making known to their representatives, especially Mike Pence, what they expected of them And you think in view of all that we heard Trump say and the surrounding facts, along with Trump's follow-on, that Jack Smith didn't have a compelling case of incitement to violent insurrection by Trump? You believe that?!
They would be guilty of a variety of local laws. I don't see how they made any interference with commerce, or any other federal power.
Now that is an interesting argument. Thank you. Can we poke a hole in it? ... Thinking ...
- Congress sees states selectively enforcing laws based on religion and determines that states are effectively "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" in at least some cases.
- 14A, Sec 1 - "No State shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Congress determines that at least states are in violation of this clause because they are denying their citizens equal protection.
- However, under the anti-commandeering doctrine, Congress can't simply pass a law saying the state must enforce this law.
- Art 1, Sec 8 - "The Congress shall have Power ... To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers" This includes the power to make laws necessary and proper for carrying out the amendments. Thus, Congress passes a federal law making it illegal to do certain acts which it thinks cross the line to prohibiting the free exercise of religion.
Sounds a little twisty but it's still a whole lot more straightforward than most commerce clause assertions. Or I could be entirely wrong. Either way, it was an interesting thought exercise. Thank you again.
The relevant question in either example is whether the "journalist" has crossed the line from being a reporter to being a participant.
It's not clear that this "line" is a bright one. My libertarian instincts tell me to err on the side of supporting the 1A right to freedom of the press when it may be in the gray zone, but others may not have this bias.