The Volokh Conspiracy
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What Kind of Immunity for ICE Agents?
A guest post by Prof. Michael Mannheimer.
Professor Michael Mannheimer (Northern Kentucky University) is the author of an important new article on "Unpacking Supremacy Clause Immunity." The issue of federal officer immunity from state prosecution is of obvious importance, given recent events. Thus, I am pleased to present this guest post by Prof. Mannheimer. What follows is written by him, not me (Ilya Somin):
The recent killing of Minneapolis resident Renee Good by an agent of federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has raised some questions, and some massive confusion, about the extent of immunity from state-law prosecution for federal agents. At one extreme, Vice President J.D. Vance, a Yale Law School graduate, proclaimed that federal agents enjoy "absolute immunity" from such a prosecution, a notion I described to a CNN reporter as "absolutely ridiculous" (yes, it is that kind of clever wordplay on my part that keeps CNN coming back for more). Even standing on its own, without guidance from the federal courts, such a claim makes no sense. First, the U.S. Supreme Court just decided recently that the President himself enjoys absolute immunity but only when exercising his "core constitutional powers," leaving for another day whether the same is true for the President's other official actions, And that was a close question, generating much disagreement over the Court's decision. It is preposterous to suggest that the President's mere underlings enjoy absolute immunity where that might not even be true of the President himself. True, the Court held that the President was immune from all prosecution for some types of official acts, while the question here is whether an ICE agent is immune only from state prosecution. But that brings me to my second point: for all intents and purposes, absolute immunity from state prosecution would ordinarily be the same as absolute immunity, full stop. Federal law does not cover most crimes potentially committed by federal agents. For example, I am unaware of any federal crime an ICE agent commits "merely" by murdering someone. A prosecution could be brought for a violation of civil rights under 18 U.S.C. § 242, but such a prosecution requires a showing beyond a reasonable doubt that the agent violated Good's rights willfully, meaning that he killed her with the specific purpose of violating her civil rights. That's a tall order. And, more to the point, a law criminalizing a deprivation of civil rights simply does not protect the same interest as a law criminalizing murder. Finally, in a regime of absolute immunity, the Federal Officer Removal Statute makes no sense either. What would be the point of Congress authorizing removal to federal court of state prosecutions of federal officers if the invariable result would be dismissal on the ground of absolute immunity? Why not just grant absolute immunity directly?
Fortunately, we do have at least some guidance from the federal courts, going back 120 years in fact. In United States ex. rel. Drury v. Lewis, two U.S. soldiers were prosecuted by Pennsylvania for murder after shooting a man suspected of stealing copper from their Army base. They sought federal habeas corpus relief, claiming immunity from state prosecution. The Supreme Court unanimously held that denial of relief was proper because of a factual dispute over whether the soldiers had shot the victim as he was fleeing, which would make the shooting justified under state law, or, instead, had shot him after he gave himself up, which would obviously be murder. Such factual disputes, the Court said, are for state court juries, not federal court judges.
Whence Vance's claims of immunity, then? For that, we have to go back even further, to 1890 and the Court's pathmarking case of Cunningham v. Neagle. There, the Court upheld the grant of habeas relief to Deputy U.S. Marshall David Neagle who was charged with murder in California state court. Neagle had killed someone who was in the process of attacking Supreme Court Justice Stephen Field. The Court held that if Neagle's conduct "was authorized . . . by the law of the United States . . . and if, in doing that act, he did no more than what was necessary and proper for him to do, he cannot be guilty of a crime under the law of the state of California." There have been only a few dozen lower federal court cases applying the doctrine of what has become known as "Supremacy Clause immunity." Courts typically view the doctrine as authorizing a federal judge to decide for themselves whether the federal agent's conduct was "necessary and proper": that is, whether the agent actually and reasonably believed that their conduct was necessary and appropriate in the exercise of their federal duties. But where there is a factual dispute, as in Drury, federal relief is barred and the case must go to a jury. That is a far cry from Vance's farcical notion of "absolute immunity." His claim that he had "never seen anything like" a state prosecution of a federal agent speaks more to his own lack of preparation before coming to the podium than to the state of the law. The cases are few and far between but they are easy to locate. Indeed, as recently as 2008, a federal district court in Minnesota itself denied immunity to a federal Border Patrol agent – held, in fact, that the claim of immunity was not even "colorable."
As I argue here, even the more limited immunity many courts have recognized is too broad, based on my close reading of the record, briefs, and decision in Neagle. For, in that case, California never disputed that Neagle's act was justified under state law. Instead, it relied solely on the contention that the federal court lacked jurisdiction on the ground that Neagle's conduct was not, as the habeas statute put it, "in pursuance of a law of the United States." Indeed, in the lower court, California's attorneys, having deemed the facts of the case irrelevant, boycotted the evidentiary hearing! Once the Court decided that Neagle's conduct was indeed authorized by federal law, even though not by a specific statute, the case was over. Thus, Neagle and Drury together stand for the modest proposition that it is for a federal court to make an initial determination whether the federal agent's conduct was indisputably lawful; if so, they cannot be charged with a state-law crime.
Neagle's protections, while very narrow, are not insubstantial. First, it allows a federal agent defendant to require court review of the state's evidence against them, as well as any evidence the defendant might proffer. In a case such as Neagle, where the defendant's conduct was indisputably justified, such a review means dismissal of the charges at an early stage. Second, Neagle authorized that review to be conducted in a friendly federal forum, an innovation largely mooted by the expansion many decades later of the Federal Officer Removal Statute, which now allows removal to federal court of virtually any state prosecution against a federal agent.
Viewed properly, "Supremacy Clause immunity" is not immunity at all. And the Neagle Court never used that word to describe what it was doing. Immunity, after all, applies irrespective of the guilt or non-guilt of the defendant, as with Presidential or diplomatic immunity. Neagle used the word "immunity" exactly once, in discussing diplomatic immunity. Neagle relief, as I prefer to call it, can be granted only when there is no dispute over the defendant's non-guilt. As Neagle itself put it, in the very next sentence after the "necessary and proper" language quoted above: "When these things are shown, it is established that he is innocent of any crime against the laws of the state."
So why does everyone mistakenly refer to Neagle relief as "immunity?" The answer, I believe, is that Neagle-type cases have been conflated with a related but different line of precedent. In Ohio v. Thomas and Johnson v. Maryland, the Court held that federal defendants could not be prosecuted under state law for conduct specifically authorized by federal statute or regulation. In Thomas, it was the use of oleomargarine in a federal veterans' home without a display of a placard identifying it as such, as required by state law. In Johnson, it was operation of a U.S. mail truck by someone without a driver's license issued by the State. In the former case, Congress had specifically authorized the provision of oleomargarine in such facilities with no mention of any disclaimer. In the latter case, federal law provided for the requirements for operation of a mail truck without specifying a driver's license from the State in which it was operated. (Presumably, some driver's license was required but Justice Holmes's characteristically terse opinion does not tell us). Such cases bestowed on the federal defendant immunity properly so-called: Thomas really did display oleomargarine without the requisite disclaimer; Johnson really did drive his truck without a Maryland license. These cases are specific instances of implied conflict preemption. The fact that the defendant was a federal agent was merely happenstance: had the Congressional authorization in Thomas applied to private nursing homes or the federal regulations in Johnson applied to private couriers, the result would have been the same.
As the Thomas Court itself recognized, Neagle is a related but distinct doctrine. Same genus, different species. And the bulk of cases in this area fall under Neagle. That is true of the killing of Ms. Good. No federal regulation specifically governed the ICE agent's conduct under these circumstances. And to whatever extent ICE regulations govern use of force more generally, there is no conflict between state and federal requirements. (If there were, I would argue that that would raise Fourth Amendment issues, but I need not get into that here).
Based on the limited evidence that we have at this point, a reasonable jury could come to differing conclusions as to whether Ms. Good was killed in self-defense. In such a case, as in any other, Neagle dictates that a jury gets to make that determination.
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Good was a lesbian Trump-hater, recklessly trying to obstruct ICE. Trump watched the video and his analysis is that ICE acted in self-defense.
The king was satisfied!
Trump's opinion has zero legal weight.
Perhaps, but Molly can look at the same video, and with a scintilla of integrity, reach the same conclusion that Trump did. You can see the vehicle accelerate at a man who lawfully used lethal force in self-defense.
If Molly was standing in front of a 2 ton vehicle that someone was trying to kill her with, Molly would be justified in shooting the driver.
You cannot see the vehicle "accelerate at" him. You can see the vehicle driving slowly around him, him not being in any danger, and him shooting because he was mad.
Every one of us — Molly included, I am quite certain — regularly walks across streets when cars are approaching. Sometimes at intersections/crosswalks, and sometimes dashing across the street while jaywalking. None of the non-sociopaths among us think, "Well, in theory this driver could run me over, so rather than just hurrying across I had better pull out a weapon and start shooting at the driver."
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but it looks like the vehicle is driving slowly because the videos we've been watching are slowed way down.
As to "around him," I guess you've had half a day to think about it and have an alternative theory for the very crisply depicted, generally elastic collision between car and agent presented to our lyin' eyes in the CNN video? Please do share.
The video definitely shows the vehicle initially moving directly at the officer as it begins its acceleration. The officer is seen pulling his gun (and raised approx 1/4 to 1/3 of the way up before the wheels start to be turned to the right.
over 40 posts from DN over the course of 3 days on the subject with none of the posts with an iota of an attempt to tell the truth. Why expect anything different?
I fear there will be more occasions of people shooting at "dangerous" cars from now on. In the government and out.
This seems to be the "go-to" excuse now for the Administration.
The news reported that it was the line regarding the Portland shooting. Somewhat conveniently, that one seemed to occur in or near a hospital parking lot.
Among the stupidity you've written here, this - "and him shooting because he was mad" is near the top of your idiocy. You know nothing of the ICE agent's mental state.
But you are utterly predictable. Do you still practice law? You know there are Ethical Rules that require a lawyer operating under a mental disability to notify the bar and to stop practicing. I urge you to counsel with the Bar to offload your clients to a competent attorney.
No, Donald Trump is the President of the United States, the Chief Executive officer and Chief Magistrate responsible for administering federal law. His opinion has weight. The opinion of Professor Michael Mannheimer has zero weight.
I’ve started to realize that so many regular commenters on here are actually parody accounts. I’m embarrassed it took me this long to realize it. And it’s a “bipartisan” phenomenon.
Good was a lesbian Trump-hater, recklessly trying to obstruct ICE.
There we have it. For the true cultist, this justifies summary execution.
If she hadn't decided to use her vehicle as a deadly weapon, she would be alive today. And the whole premise of this post is ridiculous. It would be an absurd contravention of federal supremacy, if a federal law enforcement officer, in the course of executing federal law, could be held accountable in state court.
It would be an absurd contravention of federal supremacy, if a federal law enforcement officer, in the course of executing federal law, could be held accountable in state court.
"In the course of" is doing a lot of lifting here. A Federal officer, in the course of executing a Federal warrant, is briefly and harmlessly blocked by someone. He kills that person. You would argue that to charge him in state court would be "an absurd contravention of federal supremacy".
She wasn't "briefly and harmlessly" doing anything there. She was there to interfere with ICE and made the very poor decision to use her vehicle as a weapon against an ICE agent. The agent would rather not have had to shoot. The only ones who wanted such an outcome was the group (or groups?) that instigated the violent interference,
With video at multiple angles before during and after the incident there shouldn't even be a threat of prosecution from state or local officials. Unless we're going to overturn massive decades long precedent of cops all over the nation all the time firing on charging suspects for much less and being let go with zero controversy.
"Unless we're going to overturn massive decades long precedent of cops all over the nation all the time firing on charging suspects for much less and being let go with zero controversy."
Yes, lets do that.
"Yes, lets do that."
Interesting. How would you judge these two situations then?
1. Mr. Crazed Nutjob is in a car and said to the cops that he hates all the kids. He is going at 40 mph in the direction of a bunch of school age children and looks like he's going to hit them. But, the kids might be able to dodge out of the way, or he might turn. Can the cops use lethal force to stop the car? Why or why not?
2. Mr. Crazed Nutjob is in a car. He deliberately runs over a child, and then continues on driving. There are no individuals in immediate danger of him running them over. Can the cops use lethal force to stop him? Why or why not?
This might be one of the stupider arguments I've ever seen. By your logic the cops can drive around gunning down motorists at will.
After all, any one of them might be a Mr. Crazed Nutjob!
OK, how about a real case caught on cop cam.
A woman with a large knife is inches away from slicing and dicing another person when a police officer shoots her. Should he have instead permitted her to commit murder? Or did he legitimately exercise or intended victims right of self-defense?
Bear in mind these are often split second judgment calls, do not forget that it takes the human mind time to process information.
Uh, defense of a third party is available as a defense to a criminal charge to the same extent as self-defense is available. If the evidence (viewed in the light most favorable to the accused) fairly raises the issue, the jury would be instructed that the prosecution must negate or rebut the defense beyond a reasonable doubt.
Why are you replacing one irrelevant hypothetical with an even more irrelevant hypothetical?
You're ignoring very specific (hypothetical) fact patterns that support the designation Mr. Crazed Nutjob.
Not everyone is the kind of crazed nutjob who intentionally blocks traffic, taunts federal officers, and tries to run one over. I would have said very few people are, until I read the last few days of comments from leftists here.
There was zero evidence she was a danger. She was maybe being a pain to the ICE officers. But she had just tried to waive the vehicles past and was polite when talking to them.
The only ones escalating the situation were the ICE officers who chose to escalate the situation to the point that she panicked and tried to drive away.
Resulting in her murder.
Everyone outside the MAGA bubble has said the shooting was unjustified and the officer not at risk. And it's incredible how many people here were claiming she deserved to be shot while simultaneously holding up Ashley Babbitt as some sort of martyr.
"By your logic the cops can drive around gunning down motorists at will."
No, there needs to be a clear risk and fact pattern in place. But MollyGodiva has suggested changing the rules.
So, I'm curious how she would apply the new rules. An individual has previously said they want to run over a bunch of kids. They have a car pointed in their direction, speeding and ready to run them over. Is the cop allowed to use lethal force to stop the car if the kids "might" be able to dodge?
Okay but the officer in question is likely going to skate anyway because ex post facto and other reasons.
Out of curiosity since you think officers shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves from cars charging toward them against orders and hitting them (as even the mayor admitted). If that line is not enough to justify self defense what is in your opinion if any? What sort of rules of engagement for officers do you have in mind here? Keeping in mind that the vast majority of time this will apply to ordinary officers attempting to protect the rule of law and you in general and not ice.
Amos, John Adams addressed this issue something like 230 years ago in the case of the British soldiers charged with murder after the so-called Boston massacre.
Chiapas Attucks swung at the head of one of those soldiers with “”a piece of cordwood” — essentially a baseball bat. The soldiers fired in self-defense, that was the point that John Adams made in court and why the soldiers were acquitted.
You didn't get anything right here including the guy's name.
Officers can only fire to protect from danger, not stop someone from fleeing, and certainly not to stop someone from fleeing whatever minor charges they might have been able to conjure.
To claim the officer had a reasonable fear for his life is an offense to common sense.
We all have eyes and ears, we can see the woman calmly tell him "It's fine dude, I'm not mad at you". He proceeds to walk in front of the running vehicle, stays there as it reverses and then starts forward.
He obviously had ample time to recklessly shoot the woman three times and get out of the way... so he clearly had ample time to simply get out of the way.
It's a slam dunk case for 2nd degree murder, though perhaps he could argue it down if he managed to convince a court that he acted irrationally.
Officers can only fire to protect from danger, not stop someone from fleeing, and certainly not to stop someone from fleeing whatever minor charges they might have been able to conjure.
To claim the officer had a reasonable fear for his life is an offense to common sense.
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Throw yourself in front a car chase then if a fleeing suspect in a car is 'no danger' to cops or bystanders further away. Go step into traffic. Its completely harmless!
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We all have eyes and ears, we can see the woman calmly tell him "It's fine dude, I'm not mad at you".
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Are you like five or something? Telling an officer its cool does not give you license to walk away from a detention. Also you are lying/ignorant about the immediate sequence of events. The officer she collided (in the front) with was walking from the passenger side after a tense confrontation with the obnoxious partner activist when Good suddenly accelerated into him. There was no immediate preceding deescalation to him.
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He obviously had ample time to recklessly shoot the woman three times and get out of the way... so he clearly had ample time to simply get out of the way.
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Once the while being run down and 2 while in the process of being side swiped all within 1-2 seconds. I know you watch a lot of sci fi movies and think people should have robot reflexes and thinking but I don't think I've ever heard of a case where a cop had a justified first shot at a suspect who had proven to be a danger but then was convicted because a shot a literal split second later was somehow not justified because the suspect turned around a bit a few inches away from him.
Also where is this idea coming from that a suspect automatically free reign to drive away in a 3 ton weapon just because they didn't seriously injure cops in the immediate vicinity? Which as stated before wasn't clear because all the shots were when the car was inches away from the agents and could have very well clobbered them. Law enforcement takes down people all the time that are fleeing if they are deemed a danger which a fleeing car certainly is. Again are you like five years old or something?
AmosArch 9 hours ago
"Officers can only fire to protect from danger, not stop someone from fleeing, and certainly not to stop someone from fleeing whatever minor charges they might have been able to conjure."
I fully agree the police officer cant shot to kill a fleeing suspect. However, in this case for a span of approx 3/4 of a sec the wheels of the car were turned to the left and then directly toward the officer as it was accelerating. It was only in the last 1/4 of a sec prior to the shot that the wheels started to turn to the right which is evidence of fleeing. It pretty difficult for the officer to determine that the previously attacking suspect is now fleeing is such a short time span.
Correction - I fully agree the police officer cant shot to kill a fleeing suspect with the caveat that there are very limited exceptions (extremely limited exceptions) which dont apply in this case.
The facts as seen on video support an inference that the cop reasonably believed that the driver was trying to ram him.
If she's trying to ram the cop, the threat doesn't end when the front of her car clears him, she can always swing the wheel to the left or drop it in reverse and back over him.
Many people are making arguments that are similar to claiming that a cop isn't justified in shooting a shooter who has already fired and missed.
I agree with you
The vehicle after backing up had the wheels turned to the left and within 1/2 second, as the vehicle was starting to accelerate was aimed directly at the officer.
The video also shows the officer starting to draw the gun as the vehicle is going straight at the officer. That is not in dispute, contrary to descriptions by several news organizations (NBC, ABC, NYT etc. ).
Again agreeing with your comment - Trying claim murder because he continued firing after she had cleared him is also contrary to established law enforcement protocol. Once a suspect is determined to be a threat, the officer is supposed to continue firing until the suspect is no longer a threat.
Joe, you're incorrect in thinking that "Trying claim murder because he continued firing after she had cleared him is also contrary to established law enforcement protocol. Once a suspect is determined to be a threat, the officer is supposed to continue firing until the suspect is no longer a threat."
The justification for the use of deadly force does not function like an on-off switch. It functions like a dial. n Tennessee v. Garner, the first words of SCOTUS's opinion were: "deadly force . . . may not be used" except to the extent that it is, first, "necessary to prevent the escape and," second (and far more importantly), to the extent that "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
As soon as "the suspect" no longer "poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others" the justification for shooting (and the authorization to shoot) ends.
I dont think Tenn v Garner applies in this case.
At the time he began firing through the point of time he ceased firing, there was little or no indication that she had shifted from an attacking suspect to a fleeing suspect.
The videos clearly show the vehicle was going straight at him and beginning to accelerate when began raising his firearm. That is not in dispute.
At least insufficient time for a human to process the information that she had become a fleeing suspect. That was less than 1/2 sec and probably closer to 1/5 of a second before it was perceptible that she was turning right. Then was it perceptible to the officer that she was turning right to flee or turning right to avoid the shots - not likely, he obviously did not have a view of the wheels at that time.
Joe, you might want to take a better look at Ross's own video. He shot that video holding his cell phone in his left hand. Ross's own video and other videos show Ross's body was to the right of his camera.
Ross's own video clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross before we hear Ross fire his first shot. Ross's video even more clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross (and Ross well clear of the front of Good's car) as we hear Ross continuing to shoot. Ross's own cell phone video shows that his shooting was not even close to self-defense.
Joe, this wasn't a split-second shooting. Ross didn't have his pistol drawn, pointed at Good with Ross's finger on the trigger. That might be a split-second shooting. This was a shooting that required Ross to first draw his pistol, aim it and move his finger to the trigger before he pulled it. That's why we see (on Ross's video) Good's car turn away from Ross before we hear even Ross's first shot.
Jack - you are mischaracterizing the sequence of events.
The video clearly shows the vehicle going straight at him (with a slight tilt to the left forward which you did describe as 11:00 oclock - a reasonably correct descrtion). That is the direction she was going when she started to accelerate. That is also when he started to draw the gun. The next couple of frames show His arm was about one fourth to one third of the way up and the vehicle is still moving forward at the officer, at this time almost directly forward and before the right tilt in direction.
the video from CNN as a better angle than the officer cell phone.
Joe, what did I mischaracterize? What did I say that was false?
Ross's own video proves that (1) right before Ross's eyes, Good cranked her steering wheel hard away from Ross and (2) Good's car was moving away from Ross before we hear Ross fire his first shot.
The bullet hole in Good's window (and the line running from the gun to Good) provides further proof that Good's car moved away from Ross before he fired that shot. Ross's own video proves he continued to shoot as Good's car continued to move away from Ross.
Joe, a vehicle on a flat road that tilts to the left as it's moving forward(ish) is proof that it was turning to the right at a very significant angle.
Jack Jordan 10 minutes ago
"Joe, what did I mischaracterize? What did I say that was false?"
Jack - First watch all the video's especially the video from CNN
Second - you ask what did say was false - Why not read my prior 5 comments which all detail what you have ignored, and/or mischaracterized.
Note also the term "tilt " as in "right tilt" or "left tilt" was referring to the direction of the vehicle. That was clear by the use of the term "direction" in describing the direction of the vehicle in the sentence.
You are for the most part only picking up the details after she turned to the right.
Joe, I showed that you misrepresented that this shooting was the result of split-second decisions (repeatedly alluding to fractions of seconds).
Show us, if you can, exactly what is false in the following (don't merely rely on your different narrative based on a view that wasn't the view Ross, himself, had).
Ross's own video shows where Ross's left hand (holding the camera) was (directly in front of Good as she sat directly behind her steering wheel on the left side of her car) and I contrasted that with where (and the angle at which) Ross's bullet entered Good's windshield and struck Good.
Ross's own video clearly shows Ross was standing at the left front corner of Good's car as Good cranked her steering wheel hard all the way to the right away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first shot. Ross's own video clearly shows Good's car even turning to the right away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first shot.
Ross's video shows where he was standing (directly in front of Good) when he decided to draw his weapon. The bullet hole in Good's windshield shows that Good's car already was moving away from Ross when Ross shot. The location of the bullet hole in Good's window and the line running from Ross's gun to Good provide further proof that Good's car moved markedly away from Ross before he fired that shot.
Ross's video even more clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross (and Ross well clear of the front of Good's car) as we hear Ross continuing to shoot. Ross's own video proves he continued to shoot as Good's car continued to move well away from Ross.
Jack - Why continue to ignore the period of time when the car is driving directly at the officer?
Why - ignore the actual period of risk in your analysis?
Joe, some common sense is in order here. Ross obviously knew what he was doing. This wasn't his first time trying to stop a car.
He very quickly drew his pistol and fired it. He actually hit the person he was shooting at. He didn't even drop his camera.
Ross obviously wasn't so inexperienced or so stupid as to stand directly in front of Good about 2-4 feet from the front of her car and shoot her. Only a rookie or an idiot would do something that dumb. And such a rookie or an idiot probably would pay for such a stupid mistake with his own life. Shooting a person with their foot on the gas pedal almost certainly will make that person push the pedal all the way to the floor.
Everything I've seen regarding this matter and everything I know from experience leads me to believe that Ross knew he was out of harm's way before he shot Good.
Joe, no video whatsoever shows Good's car driving at Ross when he shot. Ross jumped aside (or pushed off from Good's car with his left hand) as she passed by him. All videos of the actual shooting show Ross shot at Good after he already was clear of the front of her car and after Good's car already was moving away from Ross.
Again jack - wrong analysis of time frame to evaluate risk
The video definitely shows the vehicle initially moving directly at the officer as it begins its acceleration. The officer is seen pulling his gun (and raised approx 1/4 to 1/3 of the way up before the wheels start to be turned to the right.
the first shot is fired within hundreds of seconds before his hand is place on the car (or as he is getting side swiped ) the by the car.
Nothing in the case cited requires the officer to re-evaluate the threat faster than the human brain can process the change in threat.
Nothing in the case cited requires the officer to re-evaluate the change in the threat for events that have not yet occurred.
Joe, I've read your comment and I showed you at least one thing you (repeatedly) said that was obviously false. In no way was this a split-second shooting or a split-second decision to shoot. Nothing I've seen you say shows what I said that was false, much less showing how something I said was false.
Obviously, I watched the videos. I saw where Ross was standing and I contrasted that with where (and the angle at which) Ross's bullet entered Good's windshield and struck Good. That's why I'm saying you need to take a better look at that picture of the bullet hole in Good's windshield and Ross's own video and think about what you can see and hear from Ross's own camera (held in his left hand) as he drew his pistol with his right hand and shot Good. Clearly, Ross shot Good as she was turning away from him.
Seriously beg to differ on your analysis.
first - you never pointed to what I stated was false !
second - I pointed out the errors and omissions in your time line
Third - i pointed out the correct time period which should be used
fourth - you repetitively skip over the correct time period.
The correct time period to evaluate the threat is when she is driving directly at him. that is when he started to draw the firearm. His first discharge was less than 1/5 of a sec after the turn to the right. Why repetitively ignore the relevant time period?
Yeah. And if she's half a block away she could still make a U-turn and come back at him.
No point taking chances.
There's certainly a point when it's no longer reasonable to believe that an attack is ongoing. But it's certainly not at the split second that the first attempt is likely to fail.
He's not a mind-reader, and he doesn't know her intentions. If someone takes deliberate aggressive actions that are likely to kill or injure you, you can assume that they are likely to press the attack.
Twelve, you might want to take a better look at Ross's own video. He shot that video holding his cell phone in his left hand. Ross's own video and other videos show Ross's body was to the right of his camera.
This wasn't a split-second shooting. Ross didn't have his pistol drawn, pointed at Good with Ross's finger on the trigger. That might be a split-second shooting. This was a shooting that required Ross to first draw his pistol, aim it at Good and move his finger to the trigger before pulling it. Nothing about this shooting could be accurately labeled "split-second."
Ross's own video clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross before we hear Ross fire his first shot. Ross's video even more clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross (and Ross well clear of the front of Good's car) as we hear Ross continuing to shoot. Ross's own cell phone video shows that his shooting was not even close to self-defense.
The car started by backing up and the suspect was non-confrontational. She was obviously fleeing and not a threat.
Amos, you were correct that "Officers can only fire to protect from danger, not stop someone from fleeing." In Tennessee v. Garner, the first words of SCOTUS's opinion were: "deadly force . . . may not be used" except to the extent that it is, first, "necessary to prevent the escape and," second, "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
This is why I want to see what the EDR recorded. As the airbag deployed when the vehicle subs when he hit the pole, there will be a record of how hard you pushed the accelerator and which way she had her front tire pointed.
Personally, I think her intent was to merely scare the iceman, but like pointing a toy gun at a police officer, it’s perfectly legitimate for the officer to shoot you if the officer thinks it’s a realistic threat.
In other words, you can stand in front or 2 ton vehicle that’s heading towards you with the driver flooring the Gass and make a judgment call as though whether or not she’s merely trying to scare you.
That is not correct. See Tennessee v. Garner.
David, your take on Tennessee v. Garner is incorrect. The first words of SCOTUS's opinion were: "deadly force . . . may not be used" except to the extent that it is, first, "necessary to prevent the escape and," second, "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
Jack, your "weird" habit of "using quotation" marks around random "words" in your posts makes them "difficult to" read without actually "adding" any useful "information."
My "take on" Tennessee v. Garner "is" correct. Tennessee v. Garner says that officers can fire to stop someone from fleeing under some circumstances. Which means that AmosArch's claim that officers cannot fire to stop people from fleeing is not correct.
David, if you don't like the quotation marks, just pretend they're not there. I use quotation marks to help you (and others) find the actual text I'm presenting. If you don't care to find the text, just ignore the quotation marks.
I would think you would be more concerned with people who write falsehoods and don't bother to look at, much less show how to find, the truth. Your take on Garner was a obvious falsehood because you misrepresented that Garner contradicted another poster's statement that "Officers can only fire to protect from danger, not stop someone from fleeing." As I already showed you (and showed you where to find it) SCOTUS in Garner emphasized that officers cannot used "deadly force" except to the extent necessary to mitigate a particularly serious threat, i.e., when "the officer has probable cause to believe that" a fleeing person "poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
myself, you were correct that "Officers can only fire to protect from danger, not stop someone from fleeing." In Tennessee v. Garner, the first words of SCOTUS's opinion were: "deadly force . . . may not be used" except to the extent that it is, first, "necessary to prevent the escape and," second, "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
And since she just tried to run him over, he had such probable cause.
Officers can only fire to protect from danger, not stop someone from fleeing, and certainly not to stop someone from fleeing whatever minor charges they might have been able to conjure.
Tennessee v. Garner noted:
The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable. It is not better that all felony suspects die than that they escape. Where the suspect poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so.
Applying that rule here, IMHO FWIW, the shooting clearly appears to be unreasonable. The "protect from danger" is well framed since the opinion also noted this:
Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given.
(Someone can be dangerous even if they do not immediately threaten a police officer. The person might be running with a gun with the intent to kill someone nearby, for instance.)
Again, in context, this doesn't help the officer here.
Oh there will be. After the Democrats get the House, the Senate, and the presidency, that poor little boy will be in chains doing a per walk. He will still be inside the statute of limitations. Ilya Somin
Professor of Law, George Mason University
At one extreme, Vice President J.D. Vance, a Yale Law School graduate, proclaimed that federal agents enjoy "absolute immunity" from such a prosecution, a notion I described to a CNN reporter as "absolutely ridiculous" (yes, it is that kind of clever wordplay on my part that keeps CNN coming back for more).
Cue a revised Heritage guide to the Constitution, by a fellow Conspirator, explaining that Neagle really means the ICE agents acting at Trump's instruction enjoy absolute immunity.
In Ilya-speak, this is pretty much an exoneration.
With the video evidence there is absolutely no conclusion other than self defense unless you disagree with the long established policy that law enforcement is allowed to defend themselves and the general public against suspects charging at and hitting them with a weapon. In which case I guess we'll have to start replacing our police with robots. And if thats your concern why did you wait until now to voice it when there have been innumerable cases of suspects being put down in this fashion?
3 posts, 3 declarations she was charging.
Amos got his term goin’ on and you better recognize. That’s better than truth, it’s poetry.
The car went toward and hit him. It was going fairly sudden and fast for what you could go from a still stop to 2 seconds in an big car. If 100 people saw it stripped of any context, 100 or close to 100 would probably pick the term charging over a term like inching and would say its dangerous with many people around. What would you call it?
Amos, which video do you think showed that the car hit Ross? I've seen the original video, Ross's video and the CNN video. None led me to believe that the car hit Ross. I think I see Ross's left arm fly back as he fires, so I think it's far more likely (and consistent with human nature) that Ross extended his left arm to push off from the car.
You already established that you are delusional or straight up lying on this matter. You don't need to drop in just to concede that you have no argument except ipse dixit.
Sarcastro
There have been a multitude of videos posted of the event - Try to actually watch and to actually understand the actual event before continuing to make erroneous comments.
Yet another substance free post from bookkeeper_joe.
Considering your 40 plus posts on the topic over the course of 3 days, none of which have been factually accurate, that is a compliment.
You have quite frankly become a joke for any accuracy on this topic.
"Amos got his term goin’..."
It was Renee Good that got the term "charging" goin'. By charging at law enforcement. And hitting him.
Hey the more you post the more you get paid.
What's Ilya have to do with the choice of words there?
Well they are his words. I attribute.
The notion of criminal immunity is abhorrent to the concept of justice.
How is investigating a woman suspected of obstructing ICE officers, and then using deadly force in self-defense, any less authorized by federal law than the defensive force used in Neagle?
Because there's no claim of self defense.
If the officer actually felt in danger he would have gotten out of the way as quickly as possible.
Instead, he stayed in very close proximity to the driver and fired three shots.
That's ridiculous. Less than one second before his first shot the SUV was stationary, and he was 3-4 feet in front of the center of the front grill, see the Ross video at :40.
And at the time he was walking towards the left of the Honda parallel to the grill, he never stopped moving the entire time he was circumnavigating the SUV.
Have you never walked through a parking lot, and as you passed by a car, it suddenly started pulling out of the space when you weren't expecting it? I assume so. Did you (a) pull out a gun and start firing because you thought you were about to be killed; or (b) move out of the way, maybe cursing at the driver as you did?
Cops aren't required to step out of the way and let people that they're arresting escape.
Twelve, re: your assertion that "Cops aren't required to step out of the way and let people that they're arresting escape," that's not even close to the issue here or even the circumstances here.
In Tennessee v. Garner, the first words of SCOTUS's opinion were: "deadly force . . . may not be used" except to the extent that it is, first, "necessary to prevent the escape and," second (and far more importantly), to the extent that "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
As soon as "the suspect" no longer "poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others" the justification for shooting (and the authorization to shoot) ends.
And a suspect attacking officers doesn't stop posing a threat just because she misses the first time.
Twelve, don't you think Renee Good after she turned ceased to "pose[ ] a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others"?
Impossible to say, since she got dead before she had a chance to turn the car around and come back for her partner that she locked out of the car and abandoned at the scene.
Brian, it's not impossible to say. She obviously "did not turn her car around and come back." She did not give any indication of any intent to hit anyone with her car--not with her words, her demeanor or even her actions in driving her car. Everything I saw on any video indicated that she got spooked and simply tried to flee. What I believe I saw of Ross's left arm led me to believe that Good did not hit Ross. Ross pushed off from Good's car with his left hand.
Again, it's impossible to say what she would have done had she not died. Simple truth, not debatable, and something the agent had to factor into his literally split-second analysis.
We're literally living Scott Adams' two movies, one screen. Even if you want to try to mind-read your way to her hoping he would jump out of the way, it's just flatly impossible to view the collection of video clips we have now as collectively showing anything but her intentionally propelling the car toward him, right after making eye contact.
Brian, take a better look at Ross's own video. He shot that video holding his cell phone in his left hand. Ross's own video and other videos show Ross's body was to the right of his camera.
Ross's own video clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first shot. Ross's video even more clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross (and Ross well clear of the front of Good's car) as we hear Ross continuing to shoot. Ross's own cell phone video shows that his shooting was not even close to self-defense.
I've watched all the videos. Have you? What you're seeing in Ross's video is not her "turning away" from him, but her straightening the wheel back out from the extreme left-hand posture she had them in while backing up. The video from the rear (the one we extensively discussed yesterday/the day before, that shows the front tires skipping when she hit the gas) shows the wheels were straight ahead when the car started moving.
Brian, you need to take a much better look at Ross's own video. He shot that video holding his cell phone in his left hand. Ross's own video and other videos show Ross's body was to the right of his camera.
Ross's own video clearly shows (1) Good cranking her steering wheel all the way away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first short and (2) Good's car even turning away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first shot.
Ross's video even more clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross (and Ross well clear of the front of Good's car) as we hear Ross continuing to shoot. Ross's own cell phone video shows that his shooting was not even close to self-defense.
No matter what you think the video behind the car shows, the camera that Ross, himself, was holding in his left hand (as Ross drew his gun, aimed it at Good and fired it with his right hand) shows us the truth.
And there you have it. I don't THINK the video behind the car shows the front wheels pointed straight ahead when they start to turn -- it clearly DOES show that, and you very conspicuously don't argue otherwise.
This whole thing happened in a period of about 2 seconds, and for better or for worse there wasn't a skycam pointing straight down directly showing relative positions, motions, etc. so we're piecing it together from the angles we have. If you have to pretend other angles don't show what they clearly show so you can favorably interpret ambiguous material from your preferred angle, that should be a huge red flag to the intellectually honest.
Brian, as discussed above, the direction Good's tires initially were pointed for a fraction of a second is irrelevant. In Tennessee v. Garner, the first words of SCOTUS's opinion were: "deadly force . . . may not be used" except to the extent that it is, first, "necessary to prevent the escape and," second (and far more importantly), to the extent that "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
Officers cannot use "deadly force" except to the extent necessary to mitigate a particularly serious threat, i.e., when "the officer has probable cause to believe that" a fleeing person "poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others." As soon as "the suspect" no longer "poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others" the justification for shooting (and the authorization to shoot) ends.
The camera that Ross, himself, was holding in his left hand (as Ross drew his gun, aimed it at Good and fired it with his right hand) shows us the truth.
Ross shot that video holding his cell phone in his left hand. Ross's own video and other videos show Ross's body was to the right of his camera.
Ross's own video shows Good as she sat directly behind her steering wheel on the left side of her car. Ross was holding his camera in his left hand in front of Good, so his body was further to her left, in front of the left front corner of her car. Contrasting Ross's position with where (and the angle at which) Ross's bullet entered Good's windshield and struck Good proves that Good's car already was moving markedly away from Ross before he fired that shot.
Ross's own video clearly shows Ross was standing at the left front corner of Good's car as Good cranked her steering wheel hard all the way to the right away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first shot. Ross's own video clearly shows Good's car even turning to the right away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first shot.
Ross's video even more clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross (and Ross well clear of the front of Good's car) as we hear Ross continuing to shoot. Ross's own video proves he continued to shoot as Good's car continued to move away from Ross. Ross's own video and the photo of the bullet hold in Good's windshield show that this shooting was not even close to self-defense.
Some common sense also is in order here. Ross obviously knew what he was doing. This wasn't his first time trying to stop a car.
He very quickly drew his pistol and fired it. He even actually hit the person he was shooting at. He didn't even drop his camera.
Ross obviously wasn't so inexperienced or so foolish as to stand directly in front of Good about 2-4 feet from the front of her car and shoot her. Only a rookie or a fool would do something that dumb. And such a rookie or fool probably would pay for such a foolish mistake with his own life. Shooting a person with their foot on the gas pedal almost certainly will make that person push the pedal all the way to the floor.
Everything I've seen regarding this matter and everything I know from experience leads me to believe that Ross knew he was out of harm's way before he shot Good.
"Twelve, don't you think Renee Good after she turned ceased to 'pose[ ] a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others'?"
No more so than someone who shoots at a cop ceases to pose a threat when the shot misses.
Twelve, can't you see the difference between what Good did (making a bad decision to flee from an armed man trying to open her car door) and "someone who shoots at a cop"? You're relying too much on the logical fallacy of false equivalency.
Look again at Ross's own video. He shot that video holding his cell phone in his left hand. Ross's own video and other videos show Ross's body was to the right of his camera.
Ross's own video clearly shows (1) Good cranking her steering wheel all the way away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first shot and (2) Good's car even turning away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first shot.
Ross's video shows where he was standing (directly in front of Good) when he decided to draw his weapon. The bullet hole in Good's windshield shows that Good's car already was moving away from Ross when Ross shot.
Ross's video even more clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross (and Ross well clear of the front of Good's car) as we hear Ross continuing to shoot. Ross's own cell phone video shows that his shooting was not even close to self-defense.
There was no "suspect attacking officers."
Less than 1/5 of a second between the time the suspect is driving the vehicle straight at the officer.
Tell us what Tenn v Garner says about the time frame for determining when the officer is supposed to evaluate the change from threat to no longer a threat.
Joe, as for "the time frame for determining when the officer is supposed to evaluate the change from threat to no longer a threat" we can use our own eyes and our own ears (and the audio and video of Ross's own camera). Good clearly was not attacking the officer or trying to harm him or anyone else.
Jack - Absolutely we can tell from the video -
As previously stated,
Joe_dallas 2 hours ago
The video definitely shows the vehicle initially moving directly at the officer as it begins its acceleration. The officer is seen pulling his gun (and raised approx 1/4 to 1/3 of the way up before the wheels start to be turned to the right.
The bottom line which is key is that the initial 3/4 seconds was that she appeared to be using the vehicle to attack. it was after that point that she became a fleeing suspect, less than 1/5 of a second. Nothing in Garner requires the officer to re-evaluate her actions in a time frame faster than any human brain can process the change in her actions.
Cops, yes. ICE had no authority to arrest her.
I know this is the meme going around, but it appears flatly wrong to me. 8 USC 1357, titled "Powers of immigration officers and employees," says the officers "shall have power without warrant":
But no offence against the United States was being committed, nor was the ICE officer performing duties related to enforcement of immigration laws, hence ICE had no authority to arrest her. Even if she was violating state laws, ICE would have no authority to act.
Directly and willfully obstructing ICE's operations is by definition an offense against the US.
Unless the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents were just driving around the neighborhood looking at whatever Christmas lights were left, I'd imagine whatever they were doing would be quite comfortably "related to" immigration enforcement.
They are in fact required to do so if the only way to prevent said escape is to use deadly force in situations where deadly force is not otherwise justified.
Deadly force is justified if the person using it reasonably believes he is at risk of serious bodily harm.
Cops aren't required to retreat from such a threat, much less permit an escape to alleviate such a threat.
In other words he wasn't fearing for his life, he was trying to prevent her escape (from fairly minor charges, if any).
In any event, if the car suddenly pulled out of the space while the driver was being arrested, I think that would change my reaction quite a bit.
Another analysis from Crazy DN that does apply to the facts in the case. This gets old - is possible that DN could apply an analysis that actually is relevant?
Have you seen the officer's cell phone video? He was walking around the vehicle, and while he was in front of it, the driver looked at him and then started driving forward on ground so icy the wheels started spinning. A reasonable person could think that he couldn't simply jump out of the way in those conditions, and that deadly force was necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury. Not even a particularly close case.
If a car is about to hit you, killing the driver doesn’t actually prevent that.
And then preventing medical care
Anyone still arguing this was cool and good at this late date will defend literally anything this admin does of it’s against liberals. Including the subsequent coverup.
If a car is about to hit you, killing the driver doesn’t actually prevent that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay lets have a nationwide policy that leo is never allowed to shoot a driver of a rampaging vehicle for any reason because Nostrasarcastro says it will never help.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And then preventing medical care
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
this has been debunked which is why only the lowest dregs are still running with this talking point. She was already dead.
I don’t think Sarcastro was claiming that it would never be appropriate to shoot the driver of motor vehicle. The point is that in this instance, shooting the driver did not, and could not reasonably be expect to alter the path of the vehicle in time to alleviate any danger to the agent.
When first responders arrived they administered CPR, which indicates that she was not clearly dead at that point. So I don’t see any reason to believe your claim that she was dead a minute or so earlier when ICE agents refused to let a doctor treat the victim.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/minneapolis-ice-shooting-minute-minute-timeline-renee-nicole/story?id=129021809
What doctor? You mean some person yelling "I am a doctor?"
We will know definitively after the autopsy.
The objective is not to change the path of the vehicle. The driver had gone both forward and reverse, quickly, and turned. The objective is to neutralize the threat -- a vehicle makes an effective shield as well as an effective weapon, and once the driver used it as a weapon, it's insane to expect the officers to assume the driver would spontaneously stop using it as a weapon.
As the other woman in the vehicle demonstrated, simply getting out of the vehicle was a perfectly safe option.
WTF? What are you talking about? If you're claiming self-defense, then either (a) he was trying to get the vehicle to stop; or (b) he was trying to get the vehicle to turn.
She never started using it as a weapon, so by definition she couldn't stop doing so.
Are you ever going to watch the video and respond intelligently ?
Not once have you accurately descripted the actual sequence of events.
You dont win arguments by repetitively lying about the facts
Yet another substance-free post from bookkeeper_joe.
What substantive response can be given ?
Other than pointing out you have stated a single fact accurately on this topic.
The only other substantive response to praise you for the most prolific lies and distortions. but we digress
Ken -
You need to be careful with the ABC written version of the timeline of the event. Quite of few errors and distortions in their reporting which conflict with the actual video.
ken's comment
"When first responders arrived they administered CPR, which indicates that she was not clearly dead at that point. "
Again - You shouldnt place too much reliance on the report that first responders administered CPR as an indication she was not deceased at that point of time. Its not uncommon for ems personnel to attempt CPR on a deceased body if the time span between death and the attempted CPR is short, as is would be in this case. A term used would this type medical treatment would resurrect.
I have no information on the extent of the trauma or the location of bullet entry or exit wound. Though a good example was the attempt to resurrect Kennedy at Parkland after he was shot. Granted Kennedy was a more important person, but it remains an example of trying to resurrect a deceased person by medical personnel shortly after the trauma.
"The point is that in this instance, shooting the driver did not, and could not reasonably be expect to alter the path of the vehicle in time to alleviate any danger to the agent."
It prevented her from swing the wheel to the left and hitting him, and it prevented her from dropping the car in reverse and trying to back over him or otherwise taking a second shot.
So you knew her intent?
Neither you, nor I, nor the cop knows her intent beyond what we can reasonably infer from the fact that she launched a vehicle at a human being.
Twelve, exactly. We can infer from her demeanor immediately before she was shot that she was not attacking or trying to hit Ross. She also obviously was turning away from him when she was shot. Initially, Ross was standing at about her 11:00 position. She turned her wheels hard away from him, so he was to her left (and clear of her car) as he continued firing.
To the contrary, we can infer from the fact that she drove her car at him that she was trying to hit him. The cop presumably reasonably inferred the same thing. And as I said, he's not a mind reader, he doesn't know if she intends to continue the attack or not.
Jack Jordan 2 hours ago
" She turned her wheels hard away from him, so he was to her left (and clear of her car) as he continued firing."
That didnt happened until almost a full second after she initially drove the vehicle directly at him.
You keep complaining that other should watch the video - That recommendation goes both ways.
Jack Jordan 2 hours ago
"Twelve, exactly. We can infer from her demeanor immediately before she was shot that she was not attacking or trying to hit Ross."
Jack you are using the wrong time period to analyze whether she was a threat. The correct time period to perform the appropriate analysis is when the vehicle was pointed slightly to the left and started to accelerate directly at him.
using her behavior 10 seconds before that event, then skipping the relevant event, and restarting your analysis after she was nearly complete in turning right is what is giving you the erroneous conclusion.
It also prevented her from pressing the detonation button for a nuclear weapon, as long as we're making up insane scenarios.
It prevented her from swing the wheel to the left and hitting him,
So she would have had to swing the wheel to the left to hit him? Then he wasn't actually in front of the car.
Yes, from what I've seen it's pretty clear that he was not in front of the car when he fired the third shot.
You should tell Tim Walz about that.
"On July 23, 2020, following a special legislative session, Walz signed a police reform bill that updated Minnesota Statute § 609.066. Key aspects of this statute and related legal interpretations include:
Vehicle as a Deadly Weapon: Under Minnesota law, a vehicle can be classified as a "deadly weapon" if it is used in a manner intended to cause death or great bodily harm.
Immediate Threat to Officers: The 2020 reforms emphasize that a peace officer may use deadly force only when they can articulate an immediate threat of death or serious injury. For instance, if a driver accelerates toward an officer, it may create an immediate life-threatening danger that justifies lethal force under the statute."
Here is the actual text of the relevant section rather than the helpful AI summary:
"(2) as set forth below, it is the intent of the legislature that peace officers use deadly force only when necessary in defense of human life or to prevent great bodily harm. In determining whether deadly force is necessary, officers shall evaluate each situation in light of the particular circumstances of each case;
(3) that the decision by a peace officer to use deadly force shall be evaluated from the perspective of a reasonable officer in the same situation, based on the totality of the circumstances known to or perceived by the officer at the time, rather than with the benefit of hindsight, and that the totality of the circumstances shall account for occasions when officers may be forced to make quick judgments about using deadly force;"
No, they buried their heads in the sand as soon as they encountered evidence that contradicted their delusions.
Flatulus, how did you see in Ross's video that "the driver looked at him and then started driving forward on ground so icy the wheels started spinning"? None of that was in his video.
Its an AWD vehicle. You can have full traction on one or more tires while one or more other tires are spinning on the slushy snow. Judging from the video and weather conditions and how MSP maintains the roads with salt, it was more likely slushy snow than actual ice.
Joe, none of that was what Flatulus addressed. He misrepresented the content of Ross's video. Why are you trying to help him?
WTF ?
It is addressing your misconceptions of the weather conditions, the road conditions and how awd vehicles operate.
here is the weather conditions for the past week in MSP.
https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/minneapolis/historic
Joe, again, how is anything you addressed relevant to the misrepresentation of the content of Ross's video by Flatulus?
I referenced the officer's cell phone video for the proposition that the driver looked at the officer. You're right, though, that the wheels cannot be seen in that video, because the officer is in front of the vehicle, which is why he rightly feared serious bodily harm. The wheels can be seen slipping in bystander video taken from the left rear of the vehicle.
The Department of Justice's own rulebook says not fire at a vehicle that is not aimed at you, and it was obvious that, standing alongside a vehicle, it cannot be aimed at you. Cops have been doing stupid shit like this for years. All police manuals and policy documents are currently written by a single corporation; all police departments across the United States pay a subscription to use them as their official policies. A policy stating that you should not fire at a moving vehicle unless you are in front of it is used by thousands of departments across the United States.
This was a macho guy influenced by his superiors to think that he can do anything and get away with it, but that will not be the case in four years.
Wasn't aimed at him?
Feel free to explain the bullet hole in the windshield if he was not, you know, in front of the car?
I guess the Left no longer finds getting shot in the neck to be funny. Sad.
"The Department of Justice's own rulebook..."
I haven't looked at this, but it's worth pointing out that this guy doesn't work for the Department of Justice.
Maybe Idaho should have another go at Lon Horiuchi.
For those who don’t remember this, Lon Horiuchi was the expert FBI sharpshooter who executed an unarmed Vicki Weaver, with an unarmed baby in her arms, at their family compound on Ruby Ridge (maybe 30 miles north of Sandpoint), ID. It was premeditated, since he shot on the orders of his FBI superiors. Pretty clear premeditated 1st Degree murder under ID law. Except that the case was dismissed after the DOJ invoked Supremacy. Lon Horiuchi Couldn’t even claim self defense, since he was armed, and Vicki Weaver clearly wasn’t. They might have been able to claim self defense if her husband, Randy, had been armed, visible, and capable of shooting the FBI sharpshooter (or any other federal agent on the scene). But he knew that, so never gave them an opportunity to shoot him. But who would shoot an unarmed woman, with a baby in her arms. Turns out, the FBI, would, and did, with impunity.
Randy Weaver died a year or two ago. After serving time for his part in the Ruby Ridge operation, he and a daughter moved to MT, maybe 100 miles east of there, in MT. They would routinely show up at county fairs, around the area, selling her handiwork. According to my source (one of our former MT state legislators), who would occasionally see them there, she would do most of the talking, with her father sitting mostly quietly in the background.
Not exactly. That happened, yes, but then the Ninth Circuit reversed that. But by the time that reversal happened, the original state prosecutor had lost his bid for reelection, and his successor decided not to proceed with the prosecution.
And the Ninth Circuit en banc opinion was vacated as moot, so there's really no precedent from the 9th.
Maybe you will leave your head buried in the sand as reality pass by.
"Courts typically view the doctrine as authorizing a federal judge to decide for themselves whether the federal agent's conduct was "necessary and proper": that is, whether the agent actually and reasonably believed that their conduct was necessary and appropriate in the exercise of their federal duties. But where there is a factual dispute, as in Drury, federal relief is barred and the case must go to a jury."
Well good then, because with the amount of video available there can be no doubt about the facts:
Ross did not draw his weapon until the last second before he shot (Source: NY Times still, and video)
Nicole Good was aware he was directly in front of her vehicle. (Source Officer Ross/Alpha news video @ :40)
He was struck in the chest by the left corner hood and grill of the Honda Pilot (Source: Ross video, video from 2nd story down the street)
Ross was still in front of the SUV when the first shot went through the windshield (Gun was in his right hand, which was to the left of he SUV, his cellphone in his left hand was over the hood of the car, same sources as above).
You have a very vivid imagination.
Sounds like when Trump is gone Somin will be all ready to switch to Vance Derangement Syndrome.
Under the Common Law, you had a duty to Retreat, if deescalation Would prevent bloodshed, in self defense situations. This worked decently well when the danger was mostly from edged weapons, but less well when the danger was from firearms, and the time pressure on finding and executing a safe Retreat was much shorter. It was frequently misused by zealous prosecutors, who used the Retreat Doctrine to negate otherwise legitimate self defense claims, by finding, with months some times, to investigate, to find avenues of Retreat, not visible at the time by the person claiming self defense, often caused by the tunnel vision that comes from the stress of such a situation.
As a result of Retreat Doctrine misuse by prosecutors, around the country, the Retreat Doctrine has been statutorily abrogated in a significant majority of the states. Unfortunately, MN is not one of them. Early last year, a bill abrogating the Retreat Doctrine In MN was introduced, into their legislature, but failed to pass into law.
The result of this is that, if the shooter here had not been a federal employee, acting within the scope of his employment, he might not have a viable self defense case, because, arguably, he could have retreated, and left the decedent blocking their ICE operation with her vehicle (and the other vehicles following her for just that reason) - which she was apparently trying to do. That was apparently her purpose, and had just let out her wife to video record her planned actions.
And this is why I think that it is likely that federal Supremacy is ultimately going to win here. The ICE agents had every legal right to be where they were, and doing what they were doing at the time, including clearing vehicles positioned to obstruct their official duties. Until the decedent turned it into a self defense situation by trying to run down the ICE agents with her vehicle. Finding no federal Supremacy would, essentially, provide a green light to protesters who escalated to the use of deadly force in order to invoke the Retreat Doctrine, hamstringing the ability of federal agents and employees to enforce federal law (and protect themselves). And that would effectively give protesters the ability to stop federal actions that they don’t like. Bye! Bye! Federal Supremacy.
Bruce, which video did you think showed Good "trying to run down the ICE agents with her vehicle"? Good did not give any indication whatsoever of any intent to hit anyone with her car--not with her words, not with her demeanor and not even with her actions in driving her car. Everything I saw on any video indicated that a woman surrounded by armed men got spooked and simply albeit unwisely tried to flee. What I believe I saw of Ross's left arm led me to believe that Good did not hit Ross. Everything I saw on any video indicated that Ross pushed off from Good's car with his left hand as he shot at Good repeatedly with the gun in his right hand.
This is why most people shouldn't have guns. Maybe the presence of armed agents caused this woman to panic, which then caused the agent to panic, which then caused a death when there didn't need to be one. People make mistakes all the time, but with guns the consequences of those mistakes can be ever so much worse.
Maybe. But she was at the head of a convoy that was intending to disrupt ICE operations by boxing the ICE vehicles in, with their vehicles, preventing them from transporting the illegals that they were rounding up. Ms. Good had apparently just dropped off her wife, in order to video record her actions. Good wasn’t at the wrong place, at the wrong time, but more likely at the right place. Where she planned to be. Maybe the drawn guns caused her to panic anyway. We will probably never know. But from my point of view, I think that her spinning tires was more staged than anything. Esp since it would have furthered her goal of tying up the ICE vehicles.
It doesn't matter to me in the slightest why those cars were there. This is not the sort of thing that anybody should die for.
She shouldn’t have run into the ICE agent then with her personal 3,000 lb lethal weapon. She should have complied with their completely legal order to exit her vehicle. At that point she technically had committed a federal crime. And had no legal right to flee. And maybe as importantly, she shouldn’t have hit the ICE agent with her 3,000 lb personal lethal weapon.
But I agree, she shouldn’t have died. But there is an adage - play stupid tricks, and win stupid prizes.
Honda Pilots typically tip the scales at slightly over 4000 pounds -- it's a two-ton lethal weapon, not a 1.5-ton one.
https://autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/honda-pilot shows one trim level from one year just under 4000 pounds, and many years with a trim level over 4600 pounds.
The model honda pilot she had was most likely AWD not front wheel drive which is more common on the lower trim levels of the honda pilot. The rear wheels were spinning because they were on ice/slushy snow while the front wheels were on pavement void of ice or snow. once the rear wheels gained traction, there should of been a surge of acceleration. I havent looked in sufficient detail to see the particulars if that sudden lurch happened as would be expected. Though perhaps, the Honda AWD system is geared in such a way that it controls the power distribution to the wheels to prevent sudden lurches.
Bruce, at what point do you think Good had "committed a federal crime" and what crime did you think she committed?
What video led you to assert that Good had "run into the ICE agent" with "her personal 3,000 lb lethal weapon"?
Jack Jordan 2 hours ago
"Bruce, at what point do you think Good had "committed a federal crime" and what crime did you think she committed?"
That is a seriously stupid question at this point. That has been discussed extensively and really no dispute on that subject.
Show us, Joe. Please cite the statute so I can see what you think is obvious. The only way any person committed any crime is if every element of the crime occurred. So please help me see what crime you think was committed.
Essentially Good violated federal law by ignoring the order by ICE agents to exit her vehicle. Whether she would have been prosecuted for that crime, in normal circumstances, is very much a different story. We are talking statutes like Obstruction of Justice, etc.
What I was talking about are the powers that LEOs have to arrest people, and enforce compliance with their orders. When LEOs give a direct order, they can legally expect that their orders will be complied with. Unless, maybe the order was completely arbitrary and capricious. Think of it essentially like Rational Basis analysis - you can only refuse their orders if there were no rational basis for it, and the strong presumption is that there almost always are such rational reasons for their orders. Compliance with LEO orders are almost always mandatory (unless a Fundamental Right, such as Self Incrimination is at issue).
Bruce, in Tennessee v. Garner, the first words of SCOTUS's opinion were: "deadly force . . . may not be used" except to the extent that it is, first, "necessary to prevent the escape and," second (and far more importantly), to the extent that "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
Officers cannot use "deadly force" except to the extent necessary to mitigate a particularly serious threat, i.e., when "the officer has probable cause to believe that" a fleeing person "poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others." As soon as "the suspect" no longer "poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others" the justification for shooting (and the authorization to shoot) ends.
The camera that Ross was holding shows us the truth. Ross shot that video holding his cell phone in his left hand as Ross, with his right hand, drew his gun, aimed it at Good and fired it.
Ross's own video and other videos show Ross's body was to the right of his camera. Ross's own video shows Good as she sat directly behind her steering wheel on the left side of her car. Ross was holding his camera in his left hand in front of Good, so his body was further to her left, in front of the left front corner of her car. Contrasting Ross's position with where (and the angle at which) Ross's bullet entered Good's windshield and struck Good proves that Good's car already was moving markedly away from Ross before he fired that shot.
Ross's own video clearly shows Ross was standing at the left front corner of Good's car as Good cranked her steering wheel hard all the way to the right away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first shot. Ross's own video clearly shows Good's car even turning to the right away from Ross well before we hear Ross fire his first shot.
Ross's video even more clearly shows Good's car turning away from Ross (and Ross well clear of the front of Good's car) as we hear Ross continuing to shoot. Ross's own video proves he continued to shoot as Good's car continued to move away from Ross. Ross's own video and the photo of the bullet hold in Good's windshield show that this shooting was not even close to self-defense.
Some common sense also is in order here. Ross obviously knew what he was doing. This wasn't his first time trying to stop a car.
He very quickly drew his pistol and fired it. He even actually hit the person he was shooting at. He didn't even drop his camera.
Ross obviously wasn't so inexperienced or so foolish as to stand directly in front of Good about 2-4 feet from the front of her car and shoot her. Only a rookie or a fool would do something that dumb. And such a rookie or fool probably would pay for such a foolish mistake with his own life. Shooting a person with their foot on the gas pedal almost certainly will make that person push the pedal all the way to the floor.
Everything I've seen regarding this matter and everything I know from experience leads me to believe that Ross knew he was out of harm's way before he shot Good.
Bloocow - I agree she should not have died - but as Bruce comments - do stupid things - get stupid results. I will add based on the observation of her behavior during the altercation, she was clearly beyond her skill set.
I have seen junior high school kids with better street smarts.
But that is the country that we live in. Our laws have been enforced at the point of a gun for hundreds of years now here. Disarming the police now would give a green light to ignoring the law, and esp, here, federal immigration law. By those disrupting execution of federal law physically intimidating those trying to enforce it.
You may not like it, but to the victors go the spoils, and here that means enforcing federal immigration law. Here that also means the majority not being intimidated by a vocal minority. And making sure that doesn’t happen through intimidation of its agents.
It does sound like a jury question to me and the fact that commenters insist that everyone sees it the way they see it strikes me as unconvincing. Following removal, a federal jury could look at the many videos and conclude that this was a criminally negligent homicide under Minnesota law. Alternatively, they might conclude that the shooting was not negligent but justified. What disturbs me most about this instance is how different it was from how I expect the federal government to behave in these circumstances—to withhold judgment, investigate and work with state authorities so that the public can have some confidence in the outcome. Lawyers who approve of the instantaneous and hyperaggressive prejudgments of Trump, Vance and Noem baffle me. This isn’t the way any of this is supposed to work.
What a naive fool you are to consider the Tim Waltz justice department run by Keith Ellison as an unbiased, objective, competent legal authority. No doubt you consider the Scottsboro case an exemplary episode of American jurisprudence.
Do you think that the US DOJ under Pam Bondi is an "unbiased, objective, competent legal authority"?
She is not on tape accepting bribes from Somali fraudsters.
So, yes, far moreso than Minnesota.
"More so than Minnesota" does not mean actually unbiased, objective, etc. We all know the answer, but you approve of DOJ's partisanship, not Minnesota's.
Agreed there. Except that I don’t ever see a trial, because the Supremacy and absolute immunity questions have to be decided (by federal courts) before any possible trial. Can a state try, convict, and incarcerate a federal employee acting within the scope of his job, and doing what he was told to do, for violating a state law? For the reasons I have given elsewhere, above, I think that the answer has to be “No”. I suspect that the critical vote, again, will be that of Justice Barrett. The Constitutional questions here aren’t well enough cabined, and voting for Walz, Ellison, and MN, over Trump, Naomi, and the US government would likely open up a hole for mass disobedience and violation of federal law.
We shall see.
Can a state try, convict, and incarcerate a federal employee acting within the scope of his job
You'd have to define the true scope. There's a reason the phrase "under colour of law" exists.
Here, their job was to apprehend and incarcerate illegal aliens for the purpose of possible Removal from our country. That is what their superiors ordered them to do. It appears, based on the evidence so far, is that following those orders was exactly what these LEOs were attempting to do, and to them, very likely, that Good was attempting to thwart their orders, by blocking their ability to round up and extract the subjects of their orders to lock them up. Were those orders illegal? Almost assuredly not. The US govt has plenary power to control immigration, and Congress has enacted laws to facilitate this. So, no, there really aren’t any legal questions about whether these LEOs were operating within the scope of their employment. They were. And the time to challenge this is not when the safety of LEOs and civilians is an issue. Maybe later the legality of those orders can be challenged.
"by blocking their ability to round up and extract the subjects of their orders to lock them up"
Was the blocking done earlier, or planned for later? I hear people say they were blocking, but it looks like the street was open enough for vehicles to pass. One of the vids people have posted here over the last couple days, indeed, shows a vehicle driving past shortly before the incident.
What kind of lying, fabrication, and complete detachment from reality by law school professors.
The first 100 random names from the phone book would do a better job running any government that the faculty of a law school.
Bloocow - I agree she should not have died - but as Bruce comments - do stupid things - get stupid results. I will add based on the observation of her behavior during the altercation, she was clearly beyond her skill set.
I have seen junior high school kids with better street smarts.
This killing of a civilian by a federal employee and the assertions by people in power (like JD Vance) that this killing is protected by “absolute immunity,” should spark a flame. They should (as they have) spark a flame of controversy. They also should spark a flame of thought that spreads like wildfire, not merely burning, but also illuminating.
Now, we should think again about how six SCOTUS justices deceitfully pretended that they had the power to grant the President “absolute immunity” from prosecution for crimes that he committed irrefutably. Those SCOTUS justices flouted (knowingly violated) our Constitution.
The crimes that Trump and his supporters committed consisted of acts that were made criminal by federal laws that our directly-elected representatives in Congress and one or more prior Presidents worked together to enact. Our Constitution expressly emphasizes the reason the People delegated to some of our public servants the power to make such laws—to protect the People from abuses or usurpations of power by people in power.
The People “vested” in our directly-elected representatives in Congress the power to make such laws because the People foresaw that such “Laws” would be “necessary and proper” to protect the People and our Constitution. The People declared and established that such “Laws” were part of “the supreme Law of the Land” because they were “made in Pursuance” of our Constitution, which “We the People” did “ordain and establish” to “establish Justice” and “promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves.”
When we consider the purported immunity of our public servants (including the President) we should think about prior SCOTUS precedent. We should—we must (as all our public servants must)—think of the greater significance of parts of our Constitution that too often are ignored or misrepresented by our purported public servants (to serve themselves, not us or our Constitution).
We must think of the true meaning and phenomenal power of the words of the Preamble, Article VI, and the Tenth Amendment (which expressly emphasized that our Constitution “reserved” crucial “powers” to “the people”). We must think of the sovereignty of the people and the supremacy of the legal authorities that the People (the supreme (and the only) legislative body for the United States) in 1788 declared in Article VI of our Constitution.
The sovereignty of the People and the supremacy of our Constitution were addressed in considerable detail by SCOTUS justices in 1999 in Alden v. Maine in both the majority and the dissenting opinions and in a crucial opinion of a crucial SCOTUS justice (James Wilson) that the justices in Alden analyzed.
Highly relevant here, the justices dissenting in Alden also emphasized a crucial aspect of the sovereignty of the People and the Supremacy Clause of our Constitution that governs when our purported public servants violate our Constitution. When any “action” of any public servant “is unconstitutional,” it “is not the word or deed of the” sovereign people. It “is the mere wrong and trespass of those individual persons who falsely speak and act in [their] name.”
The justices dissenting in Alden were quoting SCOTUS precedent in Poindexter v. Greenhow (1885). In Poindexter (in the following two paragraphs) SCOTUS was appropriately even more emphatic about how to see and treat purported public servants who betray our trust and violate their oaths and our Constitution:
The government is an agent [of the sovereign people], and, within the sphere of the agency, a perfect representative; but outside of that, it is a lawless usurpation. . . . [T]he maxim, that the king can do no wrong, has no place in our system of government. . . . That which, therefore, is unlawful because made so by the supreme law, the Constitution of the United States, is not the word or deed of the [the sovereign people], but is the mere wrong and trespass of those individual persons who falsely speak and act in [their] name. It was upon the ground of this important distinction that [SCOTUS already had decided very important cases].
This distinction is essential to the idea of constitutional government. To deny it or blot it out obliterates the line of demarcation that separates constitutional government from absolutism, free self-government based on the sovereignty of the people from that despotism, whether of the one or the many, which enables the agent of the State to declare and decree that he is the State; to say [as the French king famously did] “L’Etat c’est moi.”
Our Constitution was founded on the foregoing vital principles. Alexander Hamilton, himself (the purported progenitor of the so-called theory of the Unitary Executive) in Federalist No. 83 emphasized the foregoing principles about the power reserved to the People to prosecute the President for criminal misconduct: “Wilful abuses of a public authority, to the oppression of” the people “are offenses against the government” (not actions of the government) “for which the persons who commit them may be indicted and punished” (criminally) “according to the circumstances of the case.”
Americans should remember that we have been here before. As we acknowledge the 250th anniversary of our Declaration of Independence, we also should acknowledge that this very kind of harassment of Americans, this very kind of murder, this very kind of cover-up, this very kind of violation of laws and charters in American colonies were at the heart of our 1776 Declaration. See https://declaration.fas.harvard.edu/resources/text.
“He has obstructed the Administration of Justice . . .”
“He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harrass our People, and eat out their Substance.”
“He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures.”
“He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.”
“He has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation [including]:
For quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all Parts of the World:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of [the] Trial by Jury [of people responsible for killing Americans]”
Revolution!!!! Comrade the time is NOW!!
You go first and others will follow!
Same Jack Jordan whose been disbarred in NY and Kansas?
I appreciate this discussion. The usual critics should note that this is a guest post. Your knee-jerk opposition to Ilya is not necessary here.
Realistically, I don't know how much good a lack of immunity will do. But total impunity (in thought or practice) is overall dangerous.
We should also remember that legal immunity (de facto or otherwise) doesn't mean what happened was fine.
We should also generally oppose reckless behavior. The hysteria regarding "illegals," etc., eggs it on. As do multiple ways used to dehumanize the "targets."
Cassandras warned about this in 2024.