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Arizona Parents' Bill of Rights Claim Over School's Concealment of Child's "In-School Gender Transition" Can Go Forward,
rules an Arizona appellate court, rejecting defendants' claims that the case was moot, and wasn't timely filed.
From Walden v. Mesa Unified School Dist. #4, decided last Tuesday by Arizona Court of Appeals Judge Michael J. Brown, joined by Judges Anni Hill Foster and Paul J. McMurdie:
The Guidelines {for Support of Transgender and Gender Nonconforming Students} [created by MPS, Mesa Public Schools] outline how to "provide support" to "a student [who is] transgender or gender nonconforming and consistently asserts at school a gender identity that is different from the student's sex assigned at birth." The version of the Guidelines in place during the 2022–23 school year included definitions of relevant terms and explanations of district policies addressing discrimination, harassment, privacy, and how to update a student's name or gender in the electronic student information system ("Synergy"). MPS also maintained two forms designed to be completed with the student—a checklist and a support plan—detailing how school staff could best address a particular student's needs.
The 2022–23 support plan included the following notice: "Parents/guardians will be notified if the student requests changes to Synergy." Absent a request for a name or gender change in Synergy, the support plan does not require parental notification that a student has completed a support plan. Emphasizing students' right to privacy, the support plan mandates that "[s]chool staff shall not disclose information that may reveal a student's transgender status or gender nonconforming presentation to others except as set forth on this form." Students could mark whether their gender identity could be shared with various groups, including "[s]chool leadership/administration," "[t]eachers and/or other school staff," or "[o]pen to all adults and peers." As of the filing of the Complaint, "MPS still uses the support plan at all schools." …
In October 2022, Doe learned that her child, a biological female named Megan (a pseudonym) was using the name Michael (a pseudonym) at the child's junior high school. In November, Doe contacted a teacher to ask about her child's name. Initially, the teacher declined to answer and directed Doe to speak with the principal but later confirmed that Megan "was known as Michael to all teachers and students at the school."
Doe attended a meeting with the school principal on December 5, 2022, which Doe describes in part as follows:
[T]he principal confirmed that the school knew that Megan used "Michael" as her chosen name and that the school allowed and encouraged this. The principal further informed [Doe] that the reason for the name change was Megan's uncertainty about her sexual and gender identity, that Megan had asked that she go by the name of "Michael" at school, and that this request had been conveyed to all of Megan's teachers….
The principal told [Doe] that when a student went by a nickname or other name different from her given name, MPS's student information system allowed the school to input the student's preferred name into [Synergy]. The principal also informed [Doe] that any such change made to the student information system would trigger an automatic alert to the student's parents and that if the school had changed Megan's preferred name to Michael in their electronic system, [Doe] would have been made aware of the name change.
The principal admitted that school personnel intentionally had not changed Megan's name in [Synergy] to avoid any notification being sent to [Doe] and that there were no plans to change Megan's name in [Synergy]. The principal told [Doe] that even if [she] had asked to be notified about any name changes, pronoun changes, or other choices related to a transgender identity by her child, it was official MPS policy not to tell parents and that school personnel would not notify [Doe] about any further developments related to these issues.
According to Doe, the principal did not further disclose to Doe "the content of Megan's discussions with the principal or other school personnel about gender and sexuality issues." Doe further alleged she
has been unable to obtain any records or information from the school that disclose the specific content of the discussions school personnel had with Megan about gender and sexuality. The principal and other school personnel appear to consider information about their discussions with Megan on gender and sexuality to be confidential, even as to Megan's parents. They have treated [Doe] as if they believe she does not have the right to know this information.
At the December 2022 meeting, Doe requested "that all school personnel stop[ ] using the name 'Michael' and instead refer[ ] to Megan by her given name." The principal directed Doe to contact MPS's general counsel if she wished to discuss the matter further. Doe called the general counsel and left a message but received no return call.
On February 9, 2023, Doe and Megan's father attended a meeting with most of Megan's teachers to discuss certain educational services. However, contrary to their earlier demand made to the principal, Megan's parents discovered that only one teacher referred to Megan by her given name, with the rest using the name Michael. Both parents "expressed their anger and frustration that school personnel had hidden Megan's in-school gender transition."
Doe also alleged that MPS's implementation of the Guidelines regarding Megan was dangerous, harmful, and unlawful for several reasons, including the following:
[S]chool employees encouraged Megan to lie to her parents and helped her to do so, which harmed the parent-child relationship and delayed Megan from receiving needed mental health counseling. Following the December 5, 2022 meeting with the principal, [Doe] became more completely aware of Megan's struggles. Consequently, [Doe] was able to talk to Megan with love and empathy about these issues and discuss how to resolve them. Furthermore, this led to Megan talking to her psychotherapist about these issues as well.
Within a month of [Doe]'s meeting with the principal and Megan being able to talk to her mother and mental health counselor, Megan's issues were completely resolved. Within a month, [Megan] no longer needed counseling. [Megan] is now very comfortable presenting herself as a female and using her given name and is thriving in high school.
If MPS employees had immediately contacted [Doe]—as required by law—when Megan first expressed concerns about her sexual and gender identity, she could have had those important discussions with her mother and her mental health counselor sooner and avoided many months of needless suffering. She also would have avoided the difficulty and hardship of de-transitioning back to presenting as a female and using the name "Megan" again….
Doe sued, and the trial court dismissed the case, in part on the grounds that "Doe lacks standing because her Complaint 'alleges a concern at her child's prior school that has been completely resolved' and thus Doe failed to allege a 'current case or controversy.'" But, applying Arizona state law, the court of appeals disagreed, in the process explaining how the Arizona Parents' Bill of Rights operates (something few Arizona appellate decisions had done so far):
The PBOR, adopted by the legislature in 2010, provides that "[t]he liberty of parents to direct the upbringing, education, health care and mental health of their children is a fundamental right," and a governmental entity "shall not infringe on these rights without demonstrating that the compelling governmental interest as applied to the child involved is of the highest order, is narrowly tailored and is not otherwise served by a less restrictive means." As pertinent here, the PBOR mandates that "[a]ll parental rights are exclusively reserved to a parent of a minor child without obstruction or interference from" any governmental entity, including the right to (1) "direct the education of the minor child," (2) "access and review all records relating to the minor child," (3) direct the child's "upbringing" and "moral or religious training," and (4) make "health care decisions." In 2022, the legislature amended § 1-602 to add subsections (E)–(G), which authorize parents to sue for violations of the PBOR. Except as limited by subsections (F) and (G), a governmental entity or official
shall not interfere with or usurp the fundamental right of parents to direct the upbringing, education, health care and mental health of their children. A parent may bring suit against a governmental entity or official … based on any violation of the statutory rights set forth in this chapter or any other action that interferes with or usurps the fundamental right of parents to direct the upbringing, education, health care and mental health of their children.
In any such action, the governmental entity or official "has the burden of proof to demonstrate both of the following:
- That the interference or usurpation is essential to accomplish a compelling government interest of the highest order, as long recognized in the history and traditions of this state in the operation of its regulatory powers.
- That the method of interference or usurpation used by the government is narrowly tailored and is not otherwise served by a less restrictive means.
"If the governmental entity or official is unsuccessful" in meeting those burdens, "the court shall grant appropriate relief, such as declaratory or injunctive relief, compensatory damages and attorney fees, based on the facts of the case and the law as applied to the facts."
The PBOR provides an explicit statutory basis for a parent to assert a claim against a school district or school official for interfering with their fundamental parental rights and imposes a substantial obligation on the governmental entity or official to justify the interference with or usurpation of those rights…. Pursuit of judicial remedies under the PBOR cannot be confined to a narrow question of whether a parent's concerns about the legal propriety of a specific factual circumstance have been resolved. If a policy that triggered those concerns remains in place, the PBOR expressly authorizes a suit to challenge the lawfulness of the policy.
Doe also has standing under Arizona's version of the Uniform Declaratory Judgments Act ("UDJA"), which states that "[a]ny person … whose rights, status or other legal relations are affected by a statute … may have determined any question of construction or validity arising under the … statute … and obtain a declaration of rights, status or other legal relations thereunder." …
Doe alleged statutory violations and other actions that either interfered with or usurped her parental authority under A.R.S. § 1-602(E). For example, she claimed that (1) MPS employees at Megan's school resisted efforts by Doe to learn details about her child's education and followed established procedures designed to prevent notifying parents of changes to a student's gender identity, (2) the support plan and checklist, as used in the 2022–23 school year, contained provisions designed to help a child evade notifying their parent of changes to their gender identity at school, (3) the support plan's privacy notice barred school employees from disclosing information about her child without any exception for parents, and (4) MPS tacitly encouraged or enabled students to "withhold information" from their parents in violation of A.R.S. § 1-602(C). Doe does not have to wait for additional violations of her fundamental right to parent to file suit. If the Guidelines are unlawful, she has the right under the PBOR and the UDJA to seek a judicial determination on whether MPS has interfered with or usurped her parental rights, and whether court intervention is appropriate to prevent further violations.
By pleading violations of various provisions of the PBOR, including "any other action" that interferes with or usurps her fundamental right to parent, Doe has shown there are justiciable controversies, and the relief she seeks is not merely advisory. And because Megan is currently enrolled in an MPS school, the issues are not moot.
The court of appeals also concluded that Doe's claims weren't barred by the one-year statute of limitations under the PBOR:
Doe first learned Megan was using the name Michael at school in October 2022. At the December 2022 meeting with the principal, Doe learned about the school's actions at issue here, including that the school "intentionally had not changed Megan's name in [Synergy] to avoid any notification being sent to" Doe. At that meeting, Doe requested that school personnel only refer to her child as Megan. The superior court considered Doe on notice of her potential injury on that date and thus considered her February 2024 complaint to be untimely. On de novo review, we view the record differently.
Accepting the truth of Doe's factual allegations, unbeknownst to her, MPS did not abide by her request, or at the least, inform her it would not do so. Instead, as Doe discovered at the February 9, 2023 meeting with most of Megan's teachers, all but one continued to refer to Doe's child as Michael. Ignoring a parent's express request to refer to a child by his or her given name, and hiding the issue from the parent, at the very least presents a legitimate issue of whether MPS violated the broad protections offered to parents under the PBOR, A.R.S. § 1-602(E) ("any other action"). Failing to abide by Doe's wishes was a second violation that triggered a new accrual date. Because Doe alleges she was unaware of MPS's concealment until the February meeting, at this stage of the proceedings we conclude her Complaint, filed on February 9, 2024, was timely under § 12-821….
The court dismissed, however, claims brought by a member of MPS's governing board, and also dismissed the claims against MPS's superintendent.
James K. Rogers (America First Legal Foundation) represents Doe.
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I feel really bad for the kid in this situation. The school shouldn't have kept this information from the parents, but clearly the kid did not feel comfortable discussing the issue with them. Maybe to avoid this kind of reaction!
So you've got the parents asking teachers for one thing, the kid wanting another thing, and now the courts are involved. I don't think this is going to be good for anybody, especially not for Megan/Michael.
I agree that the child is the one that is getting the worst of it in this situation.
The child needs quality mental health care.
The school should not be implementing gender transitioning protocols. Doing so is the unauthorized practice of medicine by an organization.
Calling someone by their preferred name is hardly a "gender transitioning protocol."
Calling the child by the name associated with the transitioning is one of the WPATH's protocols.
So is biological females wearing their hair short. I guess by your definition, Kari Lake is a gender transitioning protocol.
The school shouldn’t be cutting kids hair either.
Hm... that's an interesting question. Are there any public schools that offer grooming assistance? I haven't heard of it but it seems plausible.
Anyway, I suppose the hypothetical would be a boy who -- purely for style reasons, nothing to do with gender -- wants to wear his hair long, Fabio-style, against his parents' wishes... so the school provides him with a long wig to wear throughout the day. Problematic?
"Are there any public schools that offer grooming assistance?"
Most of them do but we're not supposed to call it that.
"...so the school provides him with a long wig to wear throughout the day. Problematic?"
Of course. If you even have to ask...
Explain. Not the grooming thing I walked into, the other thing.
Schools are supposed to be teaching reading, writing, and rithmatic. Interfering with parental grooming choices is overstepping.
Like, if the kid uses a wig out of the drama class costume closet, the administration should put a stop to it?
You guys seem to think of schools as this impersonal prison where nothing happens other than kids sitting silently while teachers recite curriculum at them. (That, to me, sounds like indoctrination to the max!) That's not remotely what schools are. They're social communities where kids spend the bulk of their lives. Lots goes on. Teachers can't control it all, let alone parents who aren't even there.
Not long ago Nebraska paid a quarter-million after a school secretary cut the hair of Native children who believe it is sacred, ostensibly to check for lice. The girls did not have lice. So yes, schools offer grooming in some circumstances.
I've no idea what to make of your hypo, personally. It's problematic because a wig of unknown provenance might give him a skin disease or, well, lice. Some wigs can trigger allergies as well. Failing to notify parents of exposure to health risks is deeply irresponsible and very likely illegal. It would also be such a poor use of public funds as to potentially be illegal - a district might easily spend hundreds of thousands of dollars annually accommodating all wig requests, keeping them clean, replacing and maintaining them, setting up and maintaining policies, training staff, etc. just for the sake of frivolity. Wigs are popular these days; a lot of kids would ask for a free one if they weren't crap, and it would be a complete waste of money if they were crap that nobody wants.
We do not, in fact, know what else the school was doing besides calling the girl by a male name. That was one of the elements of the complaint: That the school refused to disclose what else they might be doing!
Randal 28 minutes ago
"So is biological females wearing their hair short."
A stupid, inane and non relevant comment - though par for the course based on your standards
The thing about bookkeeper_joe is how bad he is at logic. It was entirely relevant.
I think that's what makes him so mad.
Its not relevant - except to those that associate inane comments with relevancy
Words have tremendous impact. Why did democrats swoon over George Lakoff (rhymes with)? Why do they insist on being called "progressives" and not liberals? If words don't matter why does the transition cult demand their own pronouns? Nothing is more impactful than someone's name. Changing someone's name is a classic cult brainwashing tactic.
Progressives and liberals are different things, just like conservatives and libertarians.
So are men and woman. And changing someone's name is still a classic cult brainwashing tactic.
I would only quibble with your comment by saying that the child needed quality mental health care and got it as soon as the parents were given the evidence that it was necessary.
Yeah... I'm not so sure about that. "Within a month" of starting counseling the "issue" was "completely resolved"? Whatever made Megan want to be Michael and hide it from her/his parents absolutely was not completely resolved in four weeks or less.
Yeah, I had the same thought. I can believe that Michael went back to being called Megan and desisted in claiming to have transgender feelings. "Completely resolved?" I can't say it's impossible, but...
Depends on how much the school had been driving this, as opposed to just accommodating something the girl really wanted.
Maybe they agreed the matter resolved in order to keep the school and court out.
You really think that schools are driving kids to change their genders?
I don't think you can rule out isolated schools doing it. Being so determined to be accommodating and helpful that they go over the edge into active encouragement.
And a school that would actually adopt a written policy of keeping parents in the dark? Yeah, they're the sort of school I'd expect to cross that line.
"Whatever made Megan want to be Michael and hide it from her/his parents absolutely was not completely resolved in four weeks or less."
Says someone with no information and no skin in the game.
This is why we should let the people who know their child better than anyone, and who have a huge interest in the welfare of their children, call the shots.
For once I agree with Joe_dallas.
With parents like that, the child certainly does need mental health care.
Typical inane leftist thinking - The parents are the problem. yea right.
" The school shouldn't have kept this information from the parents, but clearly the kid did not feel comfortable discussing the issue with them."
OTOH, it's possible that the school actively discouraged the kid from discussing it with her parents exactly because they were concerned the parents might dissuade her from this course.
It's possible that mind control rays from the Illuminati were involved as well.
Look, we already know that the school was trying to keep the kid's parents in the dark about their own child, so the "bad faith" bar has already been cleared.
It isn't just parents who can be guilty of Munchhausen by proxy, or in this case, "Transhausen by proxy".
Look, we already know that the school was trying to keep the kid's parents in the dark about their own child, so the "bad faith" bar has already been cleared.
I've identified the problem! Not that we didn't already know, but here's more proof that Brett equates "bad faith" with "disagrees with me on policy."
Yes, a policy of keeping parents ignorant about what's going on with their children, going so far as deliberately refraining from generating records that would trigger notification, does strike me as a demonstration of bad faith.
Right, because you disagree with the policy. In your mind, the only way someone could come to a different policy conclusion than you is if they're acting with malicious intent.
It is a policy. A policy of engaging in bad faith. The school in all its interactions with the student used a male name, but refrained from creating any official record of this, urged the student to not tell her parents, and referred to her by her real name whenever interacting with the parents.
This was a policy of lying to the parents, of falsifying records.
LEGALLY, as well as morally, the school was not entitled to hide this from the parents. Any time a school deliberately adopts a policy of violating the law?
Yeah, you're looking at bad faith. Even if you call it a "policy".
A policy of engaging in bad faith.
You've just redefined "bad faith" to mean "policies I disagree with." As I had thought.
In reality, all policy decisions are tradeoffs between potential beneficiaries. Here, the tradeoff is between the parents and the child. This school's administrators are heavily weighing the child. Too heavily, IMO, but there's no bad faith in trying to do best by the child.
Bad faith means making decisions that benefit yourself rather than any of the potential beneficiaries, or, even more rarely, making decisions that are intended to cause harm. Neither of those things is happening here. You (and I) simply disagree with the school that the child should be so heavily prioritized over the parents.
And you've chosen to define lying to parents as a "policy", as though that somehow excuses it.
No. He's not defining it as a policy; it is the policy. And he's not saying that calling it a policy excuses it; he's not even excusing it! He's characterizing it as wrong!
He's just saying that there are actual reasons the school adopted the policy, and those reasons are not the twirling-mustache-cackling-movie-villain "bad faith" that you claim. You are utterly 100% incapable of understanding that people may in good faith hold different views from you.
There was, in fact, no lying to parents in this case. There was information withheld from parents, but that's not particularly unusual. Children enjoy some amount of confidentiality and privacy, even from their parents. We're just debating the line, i.e. the policy.
You're searching for reasons to upset yourself and be able to demonize people who disagree with you. You're the problem.
Randal 1 hour ago
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"There was, in fact, no lying to parents in this case. There was information withheld from parents,"
Withholding critical important information from the parents is one of the many forms of lying.
Again You DN and several others are doing a pathetic job of trying justifying bad school policy. DN initially condemned the policy, yet has come back to defend with his later comments.
I do not agree with that. As a parent, I am willing to give my kids a certain amount of privacy, but I do not believe that they're entitled to any as a formal matter.
bookkeeper_joe still can't read. I have not made any attempt to justify the policy, and I have not "defended" it in any way.
Hint: "the people who enacted the policy did so in good faith" is not a defense of the policy.
I have also not defended the policy. It's a crap policy.
I am willing to give my kids a certain amount of privacy, but I do not believe that they're entitled to any as a formal matter.
I think if you look you'll find many arenas where minors are formally afforded privacy from their parents, especially post-puberty. You would probably go to jail for installing a camera in your 16-year-old daughter's bathroom, for example.
But other less extreme examples include some doctor/patient discussions, private communications, conversations with police about e.g. abuse, and even day-to-day events at school. Schoolteachers aren't parental spies or gossip hounds. If you went to your child's school and asked to know who your child hung out with and what they talked about, hopefully they would tell you to fuck right off.
"If you went to your child's school and asked to know who your child hung out with and what they talked about, hopefully they would tell you to fuck right off."
Ah, the pro-bullying position. I would hope the opposite. You seem to think schools are competent as parents. They are not.
"I think if you look you'll find many arenas where minors are formally afforded privacy from their parents, especially post-puberty."
But if you read the decision, this is unambiguously NOT one of those areas.
You seem to think schools are competent as parents.
No, I just don't think the situation is improved by having everyone's meddlesome parents trying to micromanage the school environment.
We had parent teacher conferences a month or so ago; when we met with our son's advisor (homeroom teacher, essentially) we discussed precisely such issues because we wanted to make sure he was adjusting well to high school. She did not in fact tell us to fuck right off. She answered our questions. And appropriately so. If she had told us to fuck off we would've withdrawn him from the school. (It's a private school.) (So as not to keep you all in suspense: he was — and is — adjusting very well.)
I do not expect the school to spy on my kids for me. But if any sort of issues arose at school and teachers/admins became aware of them, I would expect the school to immediately reach out to us to let us know so that we could handle those issues, not to decide that they know better than us how to raise our kids.
Really and truly, they gave you names and areas of discussion, like, "Little Davy is especially close with Chad Ryan and they love to talk about men's fashion..." Or was it more general like, he likes to hang out with the drama geeks and seems pretty outgoing?
If the former I find that pretty barfy... not least because it implies they're telling other parents what your kid is up to.
"If you went to your child's school and asked to know who your child hung out with and what they talked about, hopefully they would tell you to fuck right off."
In case it doesn't go without saying, parents who don't want to be told to fuck right off by public school teachers should vote against the party most likely to support teachers who tell them to fuck right off.
Somewhere between the two. She doesn't eavesdrop on their conversations, so she wasn't relating their words to us. But she did tell us specifics as to who she observed his friend group as (it's a small school — only about 50 people in the grade) and the sorts of activities she observed them regularly engaging in. (Which makes it sound a lot more sordid than reality.)
Well, I've got many friends and family in primary education, from teachers thru principals (yes, multiple principals), mostly in public schools. Oh the stories I hear. What I can tell you is, they know way more about the kids' private lives than you seem to think they do. Way more than they want to know. From mediating conflicts to intercepting notes to sniffing out harassment to handling the aftermath of a fight to investigating the source of contraband to consoling a broken heart to advising against a poor choice of friends, teachers and administrators find out a lot about what's going on in school. (Plus, of course, they all compare notes so as to try to stay one step ahead of the kids.)
The vast majority of that stuff they'd never tell parents. Of course they'll provide the basic outline of how someone's specific child is getting along, but no details. That's for any number of reasons... privacy of the child, privacy of other children, maintaining trust, but most of all, they don't want to be roped into acting as parents' private investigators or even worse, enforcers. "Does my son have any female friends? Oh no not her, she's from a Catholic family! I forbid you from allowing them to interact. Could you let me know if he makes friends with any Protestant girls? Or Jewish, that's ok, but preferably Protestant." That's what parents are like if you give them the opportunity.
From that perspective, I can see how this sort of policy comes about. It's just one more thing they happen to know about a child that the parents don't, and just like with all those other things, they'd rather not be put in the position of nanny.
Randal 18 minutes ago
"A policy of engaging in bad faith."
"You've just redefined "bad faith" to mean "policies I disagree with." As I had thought."
Randal you response remain BS. Intentionally hiding policies from the parents is Bad Faith.
bookkeeper_joe as always cannot make an argument, so just jumps in a day late and a dollar short to parrot something without even making an effort to justify it.
He's defined bad faith as concealing information from parents. Which, agree with it or not, is a defensible label.
False, but "defensible?" That's such a good example of the maggot MO.
Your handle is a demonic ritual chant. False, but defensible.
"False, but 'defensible?'"
See, you do know what bad faith is.
Yes. One good example of bad faith is pretending you can redefine words to make false statements "defensible."
Except in cases of abuse, parents and their children have the same interests. The school is acting in bad faith by pretending this is not the case, as are you. Young children are not independent, rugged individuals capable of making their own major life decisions.
The potential for abuse is one of the oft-cited reasons for this policy (which, as I've stated repeatedly, I disagree with).
The problem with people like you and Brett is that you haven't given any theory at all about the motivation for the school to be acting in bad faith. You're satisfied that anyone you disagree with is presumptively evil. That assumption is killing America.
If I adopt a policy of not telling the Gestapo that Anne Frank is hiding in my attic, is that "a policy of engaging in bad faith"?
(I'll explain the analogy in small words for the benefit of bookkeeper_joe: unless one is Immanuel Kant, lying is not necessarily bad faith.)
Nice job using a non relevant analogy to justify what in effect is bad faith policy is not a good start - though it appears to do a great job impressing your fellow leftists.
If bookkeeper_joe didn't have circular reasoning he wouldn't have any reasoning at all.
"If I adopt a policy of not telling the Gestapo that Anne Frank is hiding in my attic, is that "a policy of engaging in bad faith"?"
Of course. And you should engage with the Gestapo in bad faith.
You get that in your analogy you're painting parents as the Gestapo, and schools and the people protecting Jews from the Gestapo. That mentality is part of the problem.
It wasn't an analogy. It was a counterexample.
However, I agree that you found a way to distinguish this counterexample from the example it was countering. At least, it's a plausible enough distinction to be better cleaning up than defending, even if it is perhaps defensible. So how about...
If a doctor adopts a policy of not telling Joe's employer that Joe tested positive for HIV, is that "a policy of engaging in bad faith?"
"It wasn't an analogy. It was a counterexample."
Hey, you managed to say something half-correct. That's pretty good.
"If a doctor adopts a policy of not telling Joe's employer that Joe tested positive for HIV, is that 'a policy of engaging in bad faith?'"
I guess it depends on the relationship between the employer and the doctor.
But these analogies you are making, equating the parent-child relationship with the employer-employee relationship, or the Gestapo-Jew relationship, tell me that you don't really understand the situation.
If a school adopts a policy of not telling parents that a child was sexually assaulted at school, are they acting in bad faith?
Again, it's not an analogy or "equating." It's a counterexample to the idea that lying (or withholding) can be categorically characterized as bad faith.
If a school adopts a policy of not telling parents that a child was sexually assaulted at school, are they acting in bad faith?
Probably, if (as I take your implication), the policy is intended to shield the school. Selfish policies can certainly qualify as bad faith (as I mentioned above). But there's nothing selfish about the policy here.
"Again, it's not an analogy..."
The dude who made it said it was an analogy.
"Probably, if (as I take your implication), the policy is intended to shield the school. Selfish policies can certainly qualify as bad faith (as I mentioned above). But there's nothing selfish about the policy here."
OK, let's say a principal lies to parents and says a teacher didn't sexually assault a student, when the teacher did in fact sexually assault the student. He does it unselfishly to prevent the teacher from being punished.
Good faith?
Before I jump into the increasingly-silly-hypo game, I'm happy to spell out the boundaries of my position for you. You don't need to try to discover them the hard way.
I can think of two arguments that you could be making for why this policy actually is a bad-faith policy. One would be if the school were doing it not because it had the child's best interests at heart but rather because it was willing to sacrifice the wellbeing of children for its own political ends. But I see no evidence of that.
Another, which I think you probably could make a case for given the facts (and to his credit, Brett came close but didn't quite get there) would be to point out that the school's policy didn't quite align with the district's published policy, and that's where the bad faith comes in. You could argue that the parents should have known that gender nonconformity itself wouldn't be reported to them but that they had reasonable expectations that teachers referring to their child consistently as "Michael" would be. So even if a nondisclosure policy isn't bad faith per se, you might argue that in this case it is, since it contradicts the explicit school / parent agreement. I would still argue against such a characterization, but I think it's your best bet.
(My top-line argument against would be that I'm uncomfortable with a general rule that good-faith policies are automatically rendered bad-faith just by conflicting with some higher authority's policy. I think there are often very good-faith reasons for insubordination. Then the question devolves into whether the school owed parents a disclosure of the discrepancy. It sounds like the principal was transparent about the policy when asked. The narrow question remaining was whether that should have been disclosed to parents in advance. It should have been. Maybe it was. Even assuming it wasn't, is that, by itself, enough to conclude bad faith? I think not. It's more likely that the school sort of made up the policy as it went along, keeping Michael's wellbeing front of mind, not anything nefarious.)
Never mind bad faith. The teacher would have to be evil to conceal something like that from the parents.
Randal, you seem to be really resistant to noticing the statutory matter: That Arizona has a Parents Bill of Rights, and the school's policy was illegal.
The school is not legally free to adopt a policy that is contrary to state law.
Did they adopt this policy to protect the child or the school? If the former, no, they're not acting in bad faith. (That still wouldn't mean that it's a good policy; it would not be. It'd be a terrible one. "Terrible" isn't even strong enough; "horrendous," maybe.) If they did it to protect the school from criticism or liability, then it would be bad faith.
Randal, you seem to be really resistant to noticing the statutory matter...
Brett, you seem to be really resistant to noticing that I'm not defending the policy!
This is just more proof that you're incapable of separating disagreement from intentional injury: you can't even understand the form of my argument, since it revolves around that distinction.
"Did they adopt this policy to protect the child or the school?"
As I said to Randal, let's say they adopted it to protect teachers from being punished. Good faith?
Have you never interacted with normal human beings?
The child was transitioning and knew that his parents would disapprove. So he changed names at school, probably made other adjustments as well, and either explicitly asked his teachers not to tell his parents or chose not to change his name in the school's system (the school driving that could just be the parent's speculation).
In either case, I expect he'll move out of home at the first opportunity, possibly ceasing contact with his parent's in the process.
You say that confidently knowing nothing about the situation, but hey, that's the narrative and the narrative is never wrong, amirite?
My niece is trans, she came out to her friends and teachers well before her incredibly supportive parents because that's how kids are. It was on the advice of her teachers that she eventually did come out to her parents, but she wasn't forced.
The parents are the most critical relationship so of course they're going to be last for stuff like this. Thinking the school is the one telling kids not to talk is to be ignorant of human nature.
And that is utterly non-responsive to Twelve's statement that you know nothing about this Megan's situation.
Sure, it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but who knows? It might be an inter-dimensional being masquerading as a duck. We surely can't conclude it's a duck!
It's particularly indefensible to have a policy that says that everyone except the parents can have information about the kid. It's one thing to have a policy that if the kid is doing something in private, the school doesn't have an affirmative obligation to notify the parents even if the school learns about it. But for the kid to socially transition, such that the teachers, staff, and classmates all know about it, but then conceal that from the parents… no.
No, it's completely defensible to say that the child gets to have some control over information about them.
That is not, however, what the policy was.
But no, even if that was the policy, it is not ever defensible to keep a minor's information from the minor's own parent or guardian until and unless you get a court order revoking parental authority.
Yeah, the parental exclusion policy is both too aggressive and not aggressive enough.
It’s too aggressive because if the parents are fit then they have a right to know critical information impacting the child’s health.
It’s not aggressive enough because if the parents are demonstrably unfit then the state needs to intervene to protect the child - not just deceive the parents and call it a day!
Nor is it what the law was, notably.
We disagree, at least until the child turns 18. (That is, vis-à-vis the child's parents; obviously I'm not suggesting the school should broadcast personal details about the child to the general public.)
Huh? Is that really you David?
Yes, some rare good sense from him.
This is going to cause some teeth gnashing by the Revolutionaries.
The appeals court determined the case is not moot because the child is still in the same school district.
It’s always struck me as the weirdest thing that states invite lawsuits from (justifiably) angry parents by lying to the parents and encouraging the parents’ kids to lie.
It seems like a lot of these parental exclusion policies were adopted in response to activist pressure back in the early 2010s when the average 6000-student high school had one kid who identified as trans - maybe. No one thought about the policy consequences because they assumed it would hardly ever come up.
Now that it’s dozens of trans-identifying kids in a school that size… it’s an issue.
It's not a good policy even as to the one trans kid, but I agree, the "trans fad" that Republicans set in motion has exacerbated the damage.
I feel especially bad for that one truly trans kid. I suspect that people - even their parents - are less likely to take trans issues seriously during this trans fad.
You'd be right to feel sorry for the occasional genuinely trans kid even if there weren't currently a fad for being "trans". It's not a condition much associated with happiness or success in life.
Hence "especially." That means feeling even more bad than usual.
or even nonviolence. To the surprise of very few, the guy/gal who attacked VP Vance's house last weekend was a trans female. If you did hard enough, you will notice that almost half of "mass" (those publicly visible shootings not involving gangs or drugs) shootings are done by the transgenedered. You have to dig a bit, because the MSM actively hides their gender disparia.
To the surprise of very few, the guy/gal who attacked VP Vance's house last weekend was a trans female.
I seriously doubt it. There are some unhappy folk with mental illnesses, who try on various skin suits to see if they like them. These days "trans" is something to try on. In ten years it'll be something else, and there will still be mentally disturbed folk commiting violent crimes.
No doubt there are trans folk who are genuinely trans - ie who believe they are or at least ought to be the other flavor - but I betcha most of the "trans-violence" is being carried out by folk who are just trying on that suit at the moment. In a while they'll be trying on something else.
I tend to think you're right about that: Historically, before being "trans" became a fad, the transgender were much more likely to be suicidal than homicidal. The real transgender probably still are.
Randal 52 minutes ago
"It's not a good policy even as to the one trans kid, but I agree, the "trans fad" that Republicans set in motion has exacerbated the damage."
IS it the republicans fault for exposing the trans fad?
IS it the republicans fault for [causing] the trans fad?
Yes.
Um, what?
After gays got rights, Republicans turned their sights on trans people. Trans became the renegade out group du jour with way too much visibility to be healthy, both for actual trans people and for confused / attention-seeking / rebellious youths.
Not buying that a 12-year old Megan decided she wanted to instead be "Michael" to rebel against the GOP, especially since for the last 5-10 years the establishment has been pro-trans, making it a weird sort of rebellion.
Given her parents, I'd say rebellion is well in the cards. For other kids it might just be attention-seeking. 12 year olds are fully steeped in the cultural zeitgeist, and the current zeitgeist is far too trans-focused... because Republicans love to have villains and the wedge issues they offer.
Given her parents, who you know literally nothing about beyond the fact that they took exception with the school deliberately keeping them in the dark about something they had a legal right to know?
I also know that they successfully convinced / pressured their child to give up on identifying as trans.
As opposed to the school successfully convincing/ pressuring somebody else's child to identify as trans?
I think the fundamental problem here is that, legally, the parents have rights concerning the child that are superior to the school's, both as a matter of common law, and in Arizona, as a statutory matter.
And you want the opposite presumption, which we are not willing to grant.
As opposed to the school successfully convincing/ pressuring somebody else's child to identify as trans?
Way to non-sequitur into your deranged nightmare fantasies.
I'm pointing out that you're making some casual assumptions about what's going on here, that the factual record doesn't support. Doesn't disprove, either, but why do you keep making these assumptions against the parents, and in favor of the school, when you've already admitted that the school shouldn't have adopted the policy in the first place?
We already know the school is a bad actor, adopting an illegal policy of keeping parents in the dark about matters they have a legal right to know about. So I see no basis for giving the school the benefit of the doubt, and denying it to the parents.
This subthread isn't even about the policy. It's about the origins of the trans fad and how they may have impacted the child in this case. That's the non-sequitur part.
As to whether I'm being fair to the parents... what do you find objectionable about "they successfully convinced / pressured their child to give up on identifying as trans?" They admitted as much. They boasted about it. The same cannot be said about the school. I mean please.
On the contrary, Democrats set their sights on trans people. Democrat leaders, such as Biden, Harris, Newsom, etc., regularly made pro-trans statements.
Democrat [sic] leaders, such as Biden, Harris, Newsom, etc., regularly made pro-trans statements.
Only after the national GOP adopted anti-trans talking points. The left came to the defense of trans people... and it's cost us, here in sadly bigot-happy America.
Not true. California started putting men in women's prisons, and requiring teachers to secretly transition schoolkids. Democrats did this, and it was not just for the sake of anti-GOP talking points.
To the extent that's even true, it was way after the GOP started attacking trans people.
So what are you saying -- that Democrat politicians sent men into women's prisons as a way of retaliating against anti-trans Republicans?
Yes, basically. Republicans successfully got the left all spun up and got trans on the top of every legislative agenda in red states and in blue states.
Boys were happily winning medals in girls' sports and showering in girls' locker rooms before the GOP made an issue out of it?
That's not my recollection.
That's not my recollection.
That you don't recall it doesn't mean it wasn't happening. It means people didn't care, in the super-rare cases of actual trans people. It was the GOP that brought it to everyone's permanent and glaring attention.
Well, I do remember leftists making an issue of men who identified as women being put in men's prisons.
Do you have any examples of a Lea Thomas prior to when you claim that the GOP began making an issue of such things? I know that intersex people in women's sports had been an issue long before the left decided that men should be allowed to simply identify their way into women's sports.
the left decided that men should be allowed to simply identify their way into women's sports.
Now you're just doing strawmen. The left never "decided" this. Even Gavin Newsom is against trans women in competitive women's sports.
It's certainly true that once the GOP decided to target trans people, some on the left took the bait too far. This is one of my beefs with the left. Too many lefties are too easily distracted by responding to dumb stuff that doesn't really matter. But it's still the GOP's fault that we're talking about trans people at all.
Just a couple of weeks ago, Newsom bragged: "There's no governor that signed more pro-trans legislation than I have".
Yeah. Did you read the next sentence in Newsom's statement, or did you stop where your handlers told you to stop?
That is ... insane? No, probably just bog-standard conspiracy thinking.
Wait, what? What part of that is conspiratorial? That the national GOP has anti-trans talking points? Do you even dispute that?
It's not weird, it's a natural consequence of the educational system being staffed with people who are unrepresentative of the population the children come from.
K-12 and higher teachers skew left of the general population, which would cause a bit of friction by itself, but this is aggravated by the fact that parents skew right of the general population. So there's a big political gap between your average teacher and the parents of the children she is educating.
And that's on average. Some schools will be even more skewed to the left.
And then you get into sex issues, where parents, for perfectly obvious reasons, skew overwhelmingly hetero, even if they're otherwise middle of the road. And have strong motives for being wildly opposed to their children being encouraged to not produce grandchildren.
This is a topic almost perfectly designed to cause a clash between teachers and parents.
Indeed.
What is a child but a device for manufacturing grandchildren 🙂
Interestingly - to me at least - current social trends seem to be aligning parents genetic / descendant interests more closely with the interests of their children, while the children have grown less and less interested in generating their own children.
Turn the clock back fifty, a hundred years, there would have been more of a conflict of (biological) interests between parents and children. Parents would have been younger, and with more children, so that they would have the option of diverting support from a child who had no interest in producing grandchildren, to one who was keen on the idea. And younger parents would have had the option of producing more children if their first two or three were proving unpromising on the grandchild front.
These days, dropping only two children when you're past thirty - well, by time the kids are in their teens, Mom has definitely lost the chance of any more, and Pop's window is closing fast.
Parents who want grandchildren should follow the ancient and obvious rule established by their own ancestors. Mate early, mate often.
In the great scheme of things, postponing mating and working like a dog to achieve the glorious career position of Deputy Manager of Megacorp Inc's MidWest freight operation, is a poor trade.
Yes, teachers on the Left, but the Left only went radical pro-trans about 15 years ago. Before that, I do not think that teachers were trying to transition schoolkids.
"Doe called the general counsel and left a message but received no return call." If I were in a position of authority, I would un-engage this lawyer immediately. Ditto for the principal if he didn't tell the GC that he suggested Mom call.
Nothing triggers many here, it seems, more than trans matters unless perhaps (depending on the person) if it isn't something involving immigration and related issues.
The issue here involved the usage of a certain name at school without formally changing the name in the system. A formal change would trigger a requirement to inform the parent.
Usage of different names is one of many ways people try out gender transitioning. It underlines that this is not all about medical procedures or even in some cases puberty blockers etc.
Nonetheless, this case also concerns parental rights of a junior high student (not a high school student). The concern that some parents will not welcome LGBTQ students and that schools provide an area for children to have some autonomy is noted.
Still, there is an issue of parental rights. Here there is evidence the school refused to follow the parents' wishes even after they found out about the name usage. This is a two-edged sword. What if the school rejected a pro-trans name change request?
The opinion also cites a claim the school encouraged the student to "lie" to the parents. Again, that is more than a school unofficially using a student's preferred name. The youth of the student again is noted. Assuming the facts, it is a complicated situation.
And one must not ignore the statutory issue, a state Parents Bill of Rights, which establishes parental primacy in decision making as a legal rule absent extraordinary circumstances.
Nothing triggers many here, it seems, more than trans matters...
In connection with school, I think that's probably because there are few other subjects other than sex and its social accoutrements on which a substantial number of schools have decided to adopt policies of trying to thwart parental wishes as to the upbringing of their children.
We might imagine a world in which it was common for schools to encourage children to engage in dangerous sports, say hang gliding, whether prompted or unprompted by the child; but to take steps to conceal the child's participation from parents, lest the parents disapprove of the risks. One might argue that participating in dangerous sports can be a valuable learning experience, if properly supervised, and parents denying their child the chance to benefit are doing him or her a disservice.
But if such policies became commonplace, such that nervous parents began to enquire whether their child was engaged in such things unbeknownst to them, I predict with some confidence that parents discovering that the school was not only not telling them, but engaging in a con trick to keep them in the dark, would be just as unamused as they are when schools play such games as they do with sex realted stuff.
You only see the sex related complaints, because schools do not play the dangerous sports con trick - they do not reassure parents that they keep a Dangerous Sports Register, in which the school can record which pupils are learning to hang glide. But - wink wink - that they "can" record doesn't mean they "do" record - you suckers !