The Volokh Conspiracy
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Supreme Court Refuses to Hear Case Seeking to Overturn Obergefell
This result is unsurprising, and was predicted by most analysts, including myself.

Today, the Supreme Court refused to hear Davis v. Ermold, a case in which the plaintiff sought to get the Court to overrule Obergefell v. Hodges, the historic 2015 ruling striking down laws banning same-sex marriage. There were no recorded dissents.
Some in the media and the LGBT rights community worried that the Court would take the case and reverse Obergefell. Most informed observers believed otherwise. See my August post explaining why, which built on an analysis by my Cato Institute colleague Walter Olson.
Davis, a former Kentucky county clerk was jailed for six days in 2015 after refusing to issue marriage licenses to a gay couple, claiming she had a constitutional religious liberty right to do so. She was appealing a jury verdict against her for a total of $360,000 in emotional damages and attorneys fees. Her argument for overturning Obergefell was appended to this extremely weak religious liberty claim. I summarized the reasons why the claim is weak in my earlier post on this case:
Davis claims that government officials have a First Amendment right to refuse to issue marriage licenses to couples they disapprove of on religious grounds. It's worth noting, here, that some people have religious objections to interracial marriages and interfaith marriages, among other possibilities. Does a clerk with religious objections have a constitutional right to refuse to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple or to one involving an intermarriage between a Jew and a Christian? The question answers itself….
In the private sector, I think there often is a First Amendment free speech or religious liberty right to refuse to provide services that facilitate same-sex marriages, as with bakers who refuse to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding, website designers who refuse to design a site for such a wedding, and so on…
Public employees engaged in their official duties are a very different matter. They are not exercising their own rights, but the powers of the state. And the services they provide are often government monopolies to which there is no alternative.
In a June post on the tenth anniversary of Obergefell, I explained the great benefits of that decision, why it reached the right result (even though I also believe it should have used different reasoning), and why it is likely to prove durable. Maybe the Court will yet prove me wrong on the latter point. But it was never going to happen in the Davis case.
There are plenty of genuine threats to liberty and equality in these difficult times. We should focus on them, not on mirages like this dog of a case.
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I have never had a whole lot of sympathy for plaintiffs who argue, in essence, that their religion prevents them from doing their job so they shouldn't have to do their job. How is this different from an Orthodox Jew or Muslim taking a job at a deli and then refusing to handle ham? Or a Christian taking a job at an Islamic publishing house and then objecting to facilitating the production of Islamic religious material?
If your job is against your religion, then find another job. Your employer should not be required to re-write your job description. In the Kim Davis case, her ground for complaint was even shakier since she could simply have delegated someone else in her office to issue the marriage licenses.
Well said. I feel the same way about a person's job. If you don't feel you can do the job without compromising your principals get another job.
" Your employer"
"Her employer" was the citizens of that county. I say a majority at that time would have backed her.
They're likely to back a lot more than just that, though. Amirite?! Why stop at just not solemnizing or recording the marriage? If the mob is gonna rule, everything up to lynching and witch-burning are back on the table.
I do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky, so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office aforesaid according to law; and I do further solemnly swear that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within the State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, SO HELP ME GOD.
Exactly. She was not a private citizen at a private job. She was a government employee. And as discussed the last time this blew through, government may not deny services just because they cannot find anyone willing to implement them.
Moreover, I pointed out that, as an elected official, in spite of being paid, she was not a government employee. She was the government. She was therefore directly responsible to fulfill that requirement.
Assume you're right. Are you claiming that the clerk's duties are determined by what a majority of the people who live in the county think of any given law?
Do you also support a racist f*cker refusing to issue a marriage license to a caucasian and a person they think "don't look white enough", on religious grounds?
Therefore what? The goobers of Dingwad County are the authoritative interpreters of the Equal Protection clause?
"If your job is against your religion, then find another job. Your employer should not be required to re-write your job description. In the Kim Davis case, her ground for complaint was even shakier since she could simply have delegated someone else in her office to issue the marriage licenses."
I suspect that Kimberly Jean Bailey Wallace Davis McIntyre Davis, a self-proclaimed "Christian," was pleased to overlook Bible passages as the admonition of Jesus at Mark 10:11-12 (RSV):
As well as the words from the Apostle Paul to the church at Thessalonica:
II Thessalonians 3:10-12 (RSV). Ms. Davis does not appear to have missed too many meals.
Let me preface by saying I in no way agree with Davis. Now that that is out of the way I will say I have a certain amount of understanding when your job substantially changes. It wasn't too many years before Obergefell that not only wasn't the idea of same sex marriage on anyone's mind, the very concept would have never even occured to anyone. With that in mind I can't really fault someone for having never even considered it when they took the job.
Once the Decision came down, you could of course delegate what you find objectionable or resign your position if you find it that troublesome but I think its misplaced to blame her from taking the job in the first place.
I agree with you, although Davis didn't enter the office "too many years before Obergefell," but just seven months before. If I'm remembering right, same sex marriage was definitely a hot topic by then.
So you can simply require all jurors to eat ham for lunch, and it’s fine that there are no Muslims on the jury, because it’s just part of the job, right? No sympathy.
To avoid giving bigots a free pass, the inquiry has to be whether something is an essential part of the job.
Ms. Davis actually got an accommodation. She didn’t have to personally sign the forms, a deputy clerk could. Nobody needs a license personally signed by the clerk as opposed to a deputy. So I think that was reasonable. But she wasn’t entitled to any more than that.
I disagree with Davis, but 4 Justices agreed with Davis, so her position was not so outrageous, by any objective standard.
And I don't understand why she doesn't get qualified immunity from personal civil judgments. Cops do far worse than refuse to sign a document and get away with it. Any of the affected parties could have gotten married a few miles away.
Might it have something to do with the fact that she defied a direct court order to issue the licenses? I'm not asking rhetorically, just wondering if that affects the qualified immunity jurisprudence.
Two issues:
Brashear refused to change the wording on the license form that stated the county clerk personally approved of the couple's marriage. Davis could not in good conscience sign that form, although she had presumably signed the licenses of interfaith couples and interracial couples. (Eventually the legislature changed the form.)
But, Davis was not content to deny licenses to same-sex couples -- she stopped giving out licences altogether, in breach of her duty as County Clerk. At this point, she was mo longer acting out of religious scruples.
"Public employees engaged in their official duties are a very different matter. They are not exercising their own rights, but the powers of the state. And the services they provide are often government monopolies to which there is no alternative."
Yup. That's why there's no first amendment right for professors to teach that the world is flat or that men can get pregnant or whatever.
But men can get pregnant!
https://youtube.com/watch?v=cY9CiOqJEE8
Wow. I guess that explains the tone of some of his comments.
Biting yet cunningly persuasive?
Butthurt.
Funny! And yet, I'm wondering if you even clicked the link...
Thanksfully, and even more amazingly, not even the IOC believes that.
For reasons that would be obvious if you were smart, the IOC is drawing the line at "having experienced male puberty," which is notably (and intentionally) not "assigned female at birth."
In any case, that has zilch to do with whether men can get pregnant, since the IOC is (obviously) not banning transgender men from competing in men's sports. Sorry to make you madder, Maddog, but there can still be pregnant men's gymnasts at the Olympics. Talk about a ratings bonanza!
Giving birth is a biological reality, not a matter of self identification. So no, men cannot ever give birth. Sure, a trans man can, but a trans man is not a man. He's a trans man. I am more than happy to address both with he/him pronouns.
If a biological female has actually had sex reassignment surgery, he can't give birth.
Actually, a biological man could give birth, with appropriate medical intervention. Hormonal therapy, and implanting the fertilized egg somewhere convenient in the abdominal cavity. Have to deliver by C-section, of course, and in an emergency room to have any hope of the 'mom' surviving, of course.
As ectopic pregnancies demonstrate, a fertilized egg doesn't have to be within a womb to generate a placenta, attach to vascularized tissue, and grow within an amniotic sac. The womb isn't there to enable pregnancy, it's there to enable surviving pregnancy.
When the placenta detaches, you get a lot of bleeding. The womb is specialized for rapidly shutting down that blood loss. But you could confine the placental attachment to a sacrificial segment of intestine, using plastic film, and surgically remove that segment, and probably save the guy's life.
It would be a medically interesting experiment, but medical ethics would probably prevent conducting it.
From what I understand, it's not clear what the new policy will be.
They might even continue to let men with small penises beat up women, which ought to make many of you folks happy.
The only reason to have separate sports categories is fairness of competition. Otherwise we should abolish the categories. That's what the IOC appears to be recognizing, and is the extent of my happiness.
They got rid of private colleges?
Accreditation of private colleges blurs those lines too, but I suppose a non-accredited private exists somewhere.
They’re not accredited by the government are they?
Huh? Private college professors can be fired for teaching those things.
"Public employees engaged in their official duties are a very different matter. They are not exercising their own rights, but the powers of the state. *And the services they provide are often government monopolies to which there is no alternative*."
**mine
Didn’t you say yup to that?
Yup.
That was silly then because there’s no government monopoly on higher ed.
So you can require all jurors to eat ham for lunch? And no head coverings. They unquestionably exercise the power of the state. So you can impose any requirements you want? No inquiry whether it’s an essential requirement or how easy accommodation would be? Doesn’t matter if the requirement adds nothing to the job other than keep heathens out?
No, jurors aren't government employees, they're citizens being slightly compensated.
Probably not for actual employees, either, but government employee rights have nothing to do with jurors.
"Yup. That's why there's no first amendment right for professors to teach that the world is flat or that men can get pregnant or whatever."
As a general proposition, speech by government employees carrying out the duties of their employment is not First Amendment protected. Garcetti v. Ceballos, 547 U.S. 410, 419 (2006) ("Government employers, like private employers, need a significant degree of control over their employees' words and actions; without it, there would be little chance for the efficient provision of public services."). The Court there did not reach whether there is an academic freedom exception:
Id., at 425. Even if an academic freedom exception applies generally, however, teaching that the world is flat reflects badly on the teacher's basic ability and competence. Under pre-Garcetti law, an educational institution need not retain an incompetent instructor.
The question of whether speech of a government employee is constitutionally protected expression necessarily entails striking "a balance between the interests of the teacher, as a citizen, in commenting upon matters of public concern and the interest of the State, as an employer, in promoting the efficiency of the public services it performs through its employees." Mt. Healthy City School District v. Doyle, 429 U.S. 274 284 (1977), quoting Pickering v. Board of Education, 391 U.S. 563, 568 (1968).
What does this case have to do with speech?
As it turned out, Ms. Davis got an accommodation. She didn’t have to sign certificates she objected to. A deputy clerk did that.
She wasn’t satisfied with that, which is why she kept her case going. But she did in fact get an accommodation which got her out of something someone in her position would ordinarily be expected to do.
I agree she wasn’t entitled to get any more and her various cases trying to get more are getting more and more frivolous. But I think the initial judgment was correct and she was entitled to what she got. And she had standing to ask for more for herself, even though I think more is a loser on the merits. I agree she has no more standing to ask for Obergefelle itself to be overturned than anyone else who simply disagrees with it.
Of course they’re not going to overrule Obergefell yet. Far too soon for that. Gross constitutional error on this scale needs at least 50 years to corrupt the law before the Court would even think about overturning. That bad law is still young. It has years left to offend the Constitution and do damage to the country.
"needs at least 50 years to corrupt the law"
3 generations of people being falsely told they have a"right" to kill a baby had a large negative effect. a 50 year judicial con.
Not only was the man intended to cure cancer aborted, so was the one that could have defeated Nancy Pelosi.
Nancy pelosi is going to struggle as an outsider trader!
For 246 years we told people that they could own other people as property and we told that "property" that they had no control over their own bodies. We're still telling women that, apparently. Now *that's* the real con here.
No one is doing any such thing. But, back to reality and more pertinently here, the Court has done considerable harm from Dred Scott, to Plessy v Ferguson, to Roe, and now with Obergefell, just to name a few.
The first two did damage. The last two did good.
One commonality between state laws criminalizing abortion and antebellum laws which authorized slavery is that each deprived (some) pregnant women of personal autonomy regarding childbearing. Each is comparably detestable. Women and pubescent girls are not brood mares.
The commonality is that the Court in all the above cases, to one degree or another, abused substantive due process to legislate from the bench and impose its "enlightened" views on "a Yolk who will be 'tested by following'..."
Underneath their gaslighting bullshit, the left does love an imperial judiciary, as long as it's aligned with their agenda.
Who the fuck is this "we" and where did 246 years come from?
“ they have a"right" to kill a baby”
No legal abortion has ever killed a baby. Ever.
Every abortion ever performed ends a life. That is the sick purpose of an abortion.
No, it doesn’t. There is a small minority of fringe players who believe that, but rational people use the word “potential” in front of “life” so they don’t look like a fanatic or an idiot.
It’s only “potential” before conception. After that, there is a new life, complete with its own unique DNA. That thing your comment denies by the way is called science.
A fertilized egg has roughly a one-in-four chance of becoming a functioning human being. That is the definition of “potential”. It certainly isn’t anything close to “a new life”, since a fertilized egg is more likely to fail to become a living human being than succeed.
That is science, not the speculative and faith-based sophistry that anti-abortionists peddle.
No, your response is an example of your illogic and ignorance. You are confusing a survival rate as something that defines the substance of the life that is created upon conception (assuming your statistics are accurate merely for the sake of argument). Does a miscarried baby suddenly become something that was non-human?
Bob, there has never been a "right" to kill a baby. Every state's criminal homicide statutes prohibit the killing of an infant to the same extent that they prohibit the killing of any other reasonable creature in being. Some states subject a killing in utero to the same criminal penalties as killing someone who has been born. (These statutes typically exempt a pregnant woman who performs or procures her own abortion).
That was Roe and it’s disgraceful recasting in Planned Parenthood v Casey.
Riva, do you know what the word "statute" means?
The killing of an unborn infant in utero was not an offense at common law. Statutes in derogation of the common law must be strictly construed. A state's adoption or rejection of a fetal homicide statute is simply not a matter of constitutional law.
NG, do you know that a statute, or a court case, cannot define away the reality of a human life, although admittedly sick authoritarian/totalitarian regimes do occasionally attempt to do that to cull unwanted populations.
Riva, do you know that rhetoric, religious extremism, and semantics can’t define away the fact that a fetus isn’t a baby nor an actual human being, although admittedly sick authoritarian/totalitarian regimes do occasionally attempt to do that to force arbitrary moral beliefs on the entire population?
Fanatical leftists can’t define away reality. That a new life is created upon conception is not “rhetoric.” It is a scientific, biological reality.
A potential new life is created at conception. An actual new life doesn’t happen for at least 21 more weeks.
New DNA is created and implanted at 21 weeks? You are quite confused and quite wrong. If this is intentional, at least have the integrity (relatively speaking) to concede the issue of life like Peter Singer and find some other argument to justify your sick infanticide preoccupation.
I would prefer rational change from legislation for new rights that would be laughed out of the room back in the day. After all, you cannot dream of such court decisions until you've gone 90% of the way using free speech to convince people.
Having said that, I have a soft spot in my heart for people taking their freedom by force, which includes Supreme Court decisions.
Note this is only for new rights, and not for living constitutionalism grants of new power to the government, sans conscious amendment by the Senate, the Several States, and The People.
Motivated power mongers will facete around there's no legal difference between the two. Hogwash!
The Constitution's philosophy and design clearly anticipate unenumerated rights. Recognizing a new one is not some abomination, some monstrosity. It's exactly in the spirit of rights as things reserved by The People.
But granting the power hungry new powers at their whim is exactly the opposite. The People deliberately and consciously made the government, which is to say tyrant kings and tyrant king wannabees, have to deal with this deliberately laborious, multiple supermajorities process. This is a feature, not a bug, power mongers. Keep doubling down on how evil the Founding Fathers were, and how we should just shuck it all off wholesale, because of your short sightedness goals.
If nothing else, Trump has great value teaching you how easily a charismatic can effortlessly sway simple majorities to arrogate new powers.
None of you nasty hacks will learn, though. He'll be gone some day, and you will immediately return to your power arrogations, you worthless hacks. You fair weather constitutionalists.
It was only provocateurs on both sides who were falsely pretending the Court taking up this question (overturning) was likely. Unfortunately including some who should have known better.
Because it's theoretically possible is not a valid argument. Many things are theoretically possible. Ignoring that the particular facts of this case make it an unlikely vehicle, even were the Court inclined to revisit. That's never going to change, not in my lifetime.
Before accusing others of bad faith here, remember that Roe v Wade was given similar certitude and it fell rapidly under Trump's court. Further, members of that court made a point of calling out LGBT rights as a worthwhile future target. Then someone resurrected Kim Davis as a vehicle to bring the question to the court. None of those things are theoretical.
We got lucky this time.
It was not. Nobody ever claimed Roe wouldn't be overturned, except perhaps conspiracy theorists like Brett Bellmore who insisted that GOP opposition to Roe was all designed to trick Republican voters into voting for them.
Well, it was, which is why it took so long to overturn it. It required, not just a Court with a majority nominated by Republicans, but justices nominated by a Republican President who was actually willing to see Roe overturned.
We had a Republican majority on the Court for decades before Roe was finally overturned. Nominated by Presidents who claimed to oppose Roe. Why were they so freaking bad at actually picking justices willing to do it?
Because they didn't want to.
THEY. WEREN'T. The last pro-Roe appointment by a Republican was in 1990, over thirty years before Dobbs!!!!!!!
Every single GOP appointment in the post-Souter timespan worked to overturn Roe. It's just that turnover on the Court is very slow.
So, you're saying that for 20 years after Roe, in the face of white hot fury from Roe opponents, and in the teeth of campaign promises, Republican Presidents WERE nominating pro-Roe justices? Thanks for the concession.
Do the work, Brett.
Who were the Justices confirmed by Republican Presidents in those 20 years?
Were they pro- or anti-Roe?
Brett - Trump derangement syndrome afflicts most every leftists here. Its a serious mental disease considering that almost all of those suffering from TDS also suffer from an even worse case of Brett Derangement Syndrome".
It’s true, many Trump supporters seem deranged.
No, you didn't get lucky. There hasn't been enough turnover on the Court for overturning Obergefell to be plausible, and the justices new to the Court since then were all nominated by Presidents who didn't find it objectionable.
The Court's program of rendering the rejection of the ERA moot is safe for decades to come, I'd say.
“ were all nominated by Presidents who didn't find it objectionable.”
Because it isn’t objectionable. It doesn’t even make most people mildly uncomfortable.
True, those who believe that the word “tradition” has some magical talismanic power are outraged. But they believe that tradition is something inherently good, so they aren’t really worth listening to.
Look, what I'm outraged about is the procedural aspect, not the policy aspect. Good policy, bad policy, who cares? It wasn't a policy the judiciary were entitled to put into effect!
Congress originated an amendment that would have had that implication, and the states rejected it! It was not the judiciary's place in our system of government to render that rejection toothless by reading the substance of that amendment into a different already ratified amendment nobody had previously thought meant anything of the sort.
It was a usurpation of power by the judicial branch, much as Roe was, but even more naked.
But I don't expect it to be overturned anytime soon, probably never at all, because the judiciary doesn't easily give up usurped power, it only does so if there is an utterly massive public opposition sustained over decades, leading to the gradual replacement of judges and justices with people who don't WANT to usurp that particular power.
And because Obergefell was not a terrible policy in the way Roe was, wouldn't be a bad policy at all were it not for misbegotten public accommodation laws, there won't be that massive public opposition.
So the usurpation will stand. But that doesn't mean I'm somehow obligated to not notice that it was a usurpation.
Equal protection under the law is a baseline principle in the American justice system. There is no “yeah, but gay people are icky so they don’t get what straight people do” clause.
"It was only provocateurs on both sides who were falsely pretending the Court taking up this question (overturning) was likely. Unfortunately including some who should have known better."
I suspect that I am one of those of whom MaddogEngineer speaks. In fact, I did not claim that that result was likely; I did caution that there was a danger that Ms. Bailey Wallace Davis McIntyre Davis's suit could provide a vehicle for the Court to abandon Obergefell.
If Obergefell is to be overruled, it will likely happen as a collateral issue just as was presented in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, 597 U.S. 215 (2022). Now that the sky hasn't fallen during the 22 years since Goodridge v. Dept. of Public Health, 798 N.E.2d 941 (Mass. 2003), and the ten years since Obergefell -- contrary to the dire predictions of critics -- no state is presently likely to prohibit same sex marriage per se.
There is still a need for vigilance to prevent the kind of sideways attack that Dobbs presented.
She had standing to challenge the judgement against her as too harsh, unfair, whatever. She might have standing to ask for some sort of personal accommodation going forward. But she has no standing to challenge Obergefelle itself. Merely disagreeing with a law does not provide standing. The fact her religion informs her views gives her no more of a personal stake in the matter than anyone else who disagrees with a law for any other reason.
I'm not big on laws of general applicability stepping on religious adherance. But that's in the private sector. As a public sector employee, or more accurately, the elected government official itself, her constitutional duty is to fulfill her elected position in accordance to the laws and Constitution as-is.
Argue against such laws as policy if you like, but as things are, you still have to do the deed.
"She might have standing to ask for some sort of personal accommodation going forward."
As an elected official there's nobody to grant her an accommodation except the legislature, and courts cannot order the legislature to pass laws.
Indeed, I think Obergefell stank on ice, but that doesn't mean a government official has standing to object.
Why? What is the rationale for believing advantages enjoyed by a heterosexual couple should be denied a homosexual couple?
Because you're making a policy argument, not a Constitutional one.
Anyway, it's not the legal marriage rights that is the problem. Texas v. Johnson was the problem. No man should be permitted to put his penis into another man's butt, married or unmarried.
How small government of you!
Uh, Poxigah146, how does buttsex relate to whether burning the American flag is protected under the First Amendment? Which, BTW, is what Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), decided.
I mixed it up with Lawrence v. Texas. My fault
Exactly. I've been saying from the start that this isn't a policy argument, it's a procedural one: It's not about whether legalizing SSM was a good idea, it's about who was entitled to make that decision.
And it wasn't the judiciary. The public were asked to ratify an amendment that would have legalized SSM, and they rejected it. That should have, barring another amendment, ended the matter.
“ it's about who was entitled to make that decision.”
Equal protection is firmly in the hands of the Judiciary. When a law says “these legal and economic advantages that heterosexual couples get are forbidden to homosexual couples”, it is absolutely something the Judiciary is entitled to make a decision about.
Why would you think that the Judiciary shouldn’t be able to address discriminatory laws that violate equal protection? Do you think that treating people differently because (and only because) they are gay shouldn’t be something the Judiciary should examine and judge?
“ The public were asked to ratify an amendment that would have legalized SSM, and they rejected it.”
Equal protection isn’t a political question, it’s a legal one. People voting for discrimination doesn’t magically make it something other than discrimination.
“ Because you're making a policy argument, not a Constitutional one.”
Equal protection is about as Constitutional as an argument gets. That isn’t a policy argument at all.
“ Texas v. Johnson was the problem”
I’m assuming you mean Lawrence v. Texas. And THAT is a policy argument. And a “my morality should be forced on everyone else” argument. And an “authoritarianism is a good thing” argument.
I would also call it a racist, fascist, bigoted argument, but the paleocons here have assured me that conservatives aren’t any of those things. Apparently, despite the evidence, they are the peacemakers and the moderates and the tolerant ones, like you.
You don't know anything about what equal protection was intended to do.
Really? Enlighten me.
I’ll double down on the Devil’s advocacy. What’s the rationale for saying that the advantages enjoyed by bigender businesses should be denied to same sex ones? Because Rev MLK Jr. thinks workplace sexual preference is a sin? Because politicians use slur words like “sexist” to describe it?
The Constitution guarantees us equal rights, prohibits the government from discrimination, "No state shall... nor shall any state..." it does not reach private conduct.
States can reach private conduct as an exercise of their general police power, a power the federal government was deliberately denied, but which the Court gave it anyway with Wickard. But that doesn't mean they SHOULD.
As a matter of principle, a private employer should be as free to discriminate in hiring as a private employee is free to discriminate in job seeking. Employment liberty should work in both directions.
But that's a moral principle, not a constitutional one. Still, it's a principle I advocate anyway. I would no more force a business to hire somebody than I would force somebody to take a job with a particular business. It's just the mirror image of slavery, so far as I'm concerned.
What does that have to do with the State denying same sex couples the rights that heterosexual couples enjoy?
Elected officials get accommodations all the time. The late Senator Lieberman sometimes had committee meetings and votes scheduled to avoid Jewish holidays, and got all sorts of accommodations with food, his security detail, etc. Kim Davis herself ultimately got one. She wasn’t required to personally sign marriage licenses she disapproved of. A deputy clerk did it.
Also,having standing just means having a personal stake and in the matter, not having a winning case legally.
Standing means having a right to act in a matter, not having a stake. In legal matters, that usually means having a stake (but can also be granted). Outside law, that can mean a moral or social right. But here we're talking about law, this being a legal blog, the topic being her legal duties and powers, and the issue being a legal one. Not sure how you lost the plot that badly.
Lieberman's accommodations were allowed by the Senate. If they pulled them, he could not give them to himself. Davis having deputy clerks sign certificates was not an accommodation; that was the actual issue. She claims her faith does not allow her deputies to sign them under her authority. That is a refusal to accommodate her beliefs.
Whether you in fact have a right to act in a manner is what the merits decides.
For standing, you just need a claim that isn’t patently frivolous.
As to accommodation, deputy clerks signing definitely was an accommodation. It was a concession made to her religious beliefs. Yes, she wasn’t satisfied with it because she didn’t think it went far enough. But it was an accommodation.
If ever a plaintiff deserved to lose a case on grounds of hypocrisy, it is Kim Davis.
+1
also +22, really.
I haven't looked. Anyone know if she's got a GoFundMe (or whatever the evangelical equivalent is) to "support her fight against eeeeevil"? Has she exited "actual serious appeals" and leveled up to "scam-the-rubes fund-raising"?
She’s a religious zealot. Of course she’s scamming her fellow zealots. The only question is whether anyone she scams will ever consider that they were marks.
I suppose that, lacking any actual legal reasons to defend the Obergefell decision, you need to cite "grounds of hypocrisy."
Taken as a given your assertion that Kim Davis is a hypocrite:
If hypocrites deserve to lose their constitutional cases, then the Communists deserved to lose every single free-speech and fair-trial decision they ever won, because Communist ideology entails the very negation of free speech and fair trials.
There was a recent post about the Klansman Brandenburg and his precedent-setting free-speech case. Do you think *he* believed in free speech?
“ lacking any actual legal reasons to defend the Obergefell decision”
Defending Obergefell is easy. Opposing it is incomprehensible and requires “my morals are more important than your rights” thinking.
Your remark is highly moralistic, and indeed, like the majority justices in the Supreme Court, you've allowed your personal version of morality to override both the positive law and the moral law.
The fact that *you* fail to comprehend something which opposes your whims doesn't say anything about the merits of the position you oppose.
It simply shows that you are simply not familiar with the issues, and it's unlikely that you've even read anything which goes against your preferred outcome.
Also, your stance exempts you (in your mind) from any need to look at the *promises* made by the supporters of same-sex "marriage" and see whether these promises have actually been fulfilled. Spoiler alert: They haven't. For example, consider the promises of the conservative supporters of same-sex "marriage" that their favorite idea would strengthen the institution or marriage in general, which of course hasn't happened:
https://firstthings.com/how-obergefell-failed/
Of course, you don't really seem like a "conservative case for gay marriage" type - you're more into radical individualism, which is a broad enough subject that a single blog comment can't cover it all.
How so? My morality has nothing to do with thinking that gay marriage is clearly constitutional. It’s pure logic. If heterosexual couples have access to certain advantages through a contract, homosexual couples must have the same access. What would the argument against equal protection under the law be?
Your premises are flawed, probably because you're uttering incantory phrases without putting a lot of thought into them.
Do you actually believe what you're saying? For example, is the government acting oppressively and unconstitutionally by recognizing two-person marriages but not "marriages" among three or more persons? Is that a denial of "equal protection under the law?"
In short, what principle are you upholding other than an emotional, "I feel it, therefore it's true" reaction?
It’s no more emotional to think dyads are fundamental to marriage than that opposite sexes is.
"For example, is the government acting oppressively and unconstitutionally by recognizing two-person marriages but not "marriages" among three or more persons?"
In fact, it is. While polygamy has negative social impacts, it is at least a traditional form of 'marriage', unlike SSM. Number is not fundamental to the concept the way opposite sex is.
'Traditional but unequal' is not a set of laws that's done well in history or before the Court.
BrettLaw must be more sanguine about these things.
My point is simply that polygamy and polyandry were within the existing definition of "marriage", being forms of marriage which had been practiced from antiquity. They had as much historical claim to being "marriage" as one man, one woman.
The same can't be said of SSM.
Why was one form of traditional marriage tolerated in the US, and another not? Religious doctrine, frankly. Suppression of polygamy was a violation of separation of church and state, grossly so: The federal government literally forced a major religion to change its doctrine on the topic, by military force!
I'm capable of recognizing that, despite my thinking that history has proven that polygamy is bad for social stability.
Just as I'm capable of recognizing that the Court was acting outside of its proper role by imposing SSM on the country, even if doing so wasn't particularly harmful in and of itself.
the Court was acting outside of its proper role by imposing SSM on the country
Nothing you've written about tradition - specifically Christian tradition - has anything to do with government's treatment of marriage.
You seem very proud how principled you are conceding polygamy could be legal under BrettLaw, but no one else deals in your increasingly incoherent legal world.
Look, I realize that the moment somebody disagrees with you, your brain shuts down, and you stop being able to understand what people are saying, but still...
I'm saying that polygamy was (and is) a real form of "marriage" which was suppressed because it was contrary to Christian theology, and that was a constitutionally impermissible reason to do it.
By contrast, SSM wasn't being "suppressed", it simply wasn't being recognized because it wasn't even "marriage", as the word was ordinarily defined.
"Suppressing" SSM was like suppressing even numbers starting with "1". There wasn't any such thing within the existing definition of marriage TO suppress.
The Court went and redefined a word that had the same meaning for centuries, in order to accomplish the effect of a defeated constitutional amendment. That was fundamentally an illegitimate thing for the judiciary to be doing.
And person wasn’t defined to include women or black peoples for a long time,
Tradition sometimes falls before civil rights.
Simple as,
You tend not to see color rights when they are for people other than white straight dudes, but this is really stark.
And I'll say it again: The Court's job is not to drive those changes, but to enforce them. We have elected branches to drive changes.
That's not a legal argument.
I'm not sure what it is.
“ Why was one form of traditional marriage tolerated in the US”
Why do you think tradition is relevant in an equal protection case? “Traditionally we have discriminated against these people, so we should be allowed to continue to discriminate against them” doesn’t sound like a winning legal argument, does it?
Would you like to write a post defending the Constitutionality of Jim Crow laws while you’re at it?
“ Just as I'm capable of recognizing that the Court was acting outside of its proper role by imposing SSM on the country”
SSM wasn’t “imposed” on anyone. Upholding equal protection and removing discriminatory barriers that denied marriage rights to gay people didn’t force anyone to do anything.
Of course, I believe you are the foremost proponent of a myriad of pseudo-historical Lost Cause nonsense, so homophobic pseudo-legal nonsense fits in your wheelhouse.
“ a real form of "marriage"”
Gay marriage is also real. Just because you don’t like it and people had successfully prevented it for years doesn’t make heterosexual (or polygamous) marriages “real”.
Tradition is just a word that means “how we used to do it”. That doesn’t make it right, good, or legal. It just makes it old.
“ And I'll say it again: The Court's job is not to drive those changes, but to enforce them. We have elected branches to drive changes.”
Equal protection is exactly the Court’s job. Legislatures constantly try to do unconstitutional things like deny same sex marriage. The Court’s job is to tell the repressive totalitarian assholes to go fuck themselves.
No one cares (nor should they) that your traditions are being replaced by equal treatment.
Your arbitrary moral codes and traditional beliefs are only valid in determining how you live your life. They are irrelevant to how someone else should live theirs.
Love is love. Why should it be limited to one person?
For traditional marriage, with procreation in the mix, I knew why. The federal government fought a war against rebellious polygamists. But I've been told that procreation is not foundational to the state's recognition of marriage, because of the 14th amendment, so I don't know anymore.
Polygamous marriage is super good at procreation, if that’s your watchword.
“ Do you actually believe what you're saying?”
Yes. Do you?
“ For example, is the government acting oppressively and unconstitutionally by recognizing two-person marriages but not "marriages" among three or more persons?”
Can that argument be made? Absolutely.
Is it relevant when discussing whether marriage between two people can be limited to just heterosexual couples and exclude homosexual couples? No.
If you extend certain legal benefits to heterosexual couples, it is clearly unconstitutional to exclude homosexual couples merely because they are homosexual.
How do you get around such a basic, simple, and clear argument?
“ In short, what principle are you upholding other than an emotional, "I feel it, therefore it's true" reaction?”
It is the exact opposite of an emotional reaction. It is an equal protection argument, plain and simple.
The opposition to same sex marriage, however, is nothing but emotional. Bigotry usually is. There is no legally logical argument that can be made.
You’re free to try, though. All of your posts have been “this is what your position would mean” and “what about the slippery slope” and “you’re emotional”, but none of them have contained substantive arguments for denying homosexual couples the right to marry.
So, if you can, please lay out the legal argument against giving homosexuals the same marriage rights as heterosexuals. I explained my legal reasoning. Can you explain yours?
How does the constitution restrict those certain advantages to only two people and not more, and then two that have to be in a romantic situation and not just any two people? Or single people?
Why can these advantages be restricted from every other configuration of humanity except two unrelated adults in a romantic setting?
I don’t think k there’s any romance showing necessary for a marriage to be valid.
Indeed. Does anyone think Trump and Melania are madly in love with each other, or ever were?
I have no particular basis for denying that, and neither do you. You don't know anything more about their private life than anybody else.
Come on, Brett! There's a direct logical basis. For Trump to be madly in love with Melania, he'd have to be capable of warm generous feelings towards someone besides himself. But he's a hollow empty Nothing inside, devoid of any positive human trait. Remember this quote:
No books, No reading,
No friends, No music,
No curiosity, No patience,
No integrity, No compassion,
No empathy, No loyalty,
No conscience, No courage,
No manners, No respect,
No character, No morality, No honor,
Not even a dog.
You don't think love belongs on that list too?
What I think is that your believing that Trump is a sociopath devoid of all human feeling does not constitute evidence of anything beyond your own mental state.
Brett Bellmore : "evidence of anything beyond your own mental state."
Well, that and all evidence from Trump's entire lifetime.....
The best poster I’ve seen about Trump:
I’d call Trump a cunt but he lacks warmth and depth.
Donald Trump is a sociopath with no empathy or morality. His entire life has demonstrated this.
Love is love.
So just to be clear, you *oppose* legal discrimination against polygamy and other forms of *polyamory*?
How does the constitution restrict those certain advantages to only two people... that have to be in a romantic situation and not just any two people?
Surprisingly stupid, even for you. People who aren't romantically involved get married all the time for a variety of reasons and nobody seemed to mind... until two people of the same gender tried it.
"How does the constitution restrict those certain advantages to only two people and not more, and then two that have to be in a romantic situation and not just any two people? Or single people?"
Hint: the Constitution does not prescribe such restrictions. If a state wishes to legalize plural marriages, its legislature is free to do so.
Why do you consider Kim Davis a hypocrite?
She’s asking for things she isn’t entitled to. But everyone who loses a court case does that. You obviously don’t agree with her views. But that doesn’t make her a hypocrite. And she may be doing these cases in part to fund raise and get her name out. But lots of activists and politicians of all stripes do that.
Because her position is supposedly based on her view of the sanctity of marriage, while her life reflects her lack of belief in the sanctity of marriage.
Do you consider women who wear one-piece bathing suits - no burkas, but no nudity either - to be hypocrites? Does the fact that they don’t cover everything prove that their objections to baring the things they don’t want to bare are nonsense?
It’s understandable that nudists would accuse every woman who doesn’t wear a burka but objects to public nudity of hypocrisy.
But for someone who doesn’t have bias due to a vested interest, is such an accusation really fair? Are the only non-hypocritical positions burkas or nudity? People often hold to ideals, yet don’t actually go 100% of the way towards them, on quite a number of things.
What makes this different?
I don't understand this. If a person has flaws and has made a complete mess of the marriages in her life, then to be consistent she must support the public policy that she believes will carpet bomb marriage in general?
Apart from her inflexibility as to the marriages of lots of people but not herself, how does this carpet bombing operate exactly?
Something mote eye something something beam.
Taken as a given your assertion that Kim Davis is a hypocrite:
I think this has been sufficiently established publicly that no further evidence need be produced.
I: am sure that Brandenburg was a hypocrite, but citing religious reasons for opposing gay marriage while being a serial adulterer and having had multiple marriages is a level above that because of the nature of religious belief.
You lack a sense of proportion.
You literally think Kim Davis is worse than a man who wanted American Blacks to go to Africa and American Jews to go to Israel, who wanted "revengeance," and who was *willing to work with Nazis,* and who then dared to wrap himself in those Constitutional guarantees which (thank God) would prevent him from carrying out his plans? Willing to wrap himself in the same Constitution which the brave American boys who fought Nazis were sworn to support?
https://reason.com/2025/11/08/thank-this-klansman-for-your-freedom-of-speech/
And I didn't know you were a Catholic who in many (not all) cases considers remarriage to be adultery. Is this what you believe, or are you adopting that position for tactical purposes?
Kimberly Jean Bailey Wallace Davis McIntyre Davis is a self-proclaimed "Christian," who obviously disregards such Bible passages as the admonition of Jesus at Mark 10:11-12 regarding remarriage after divorcing.
I suspect that if Jesus came to Eastern Kentucky, he would condemn Ms. Davis just as harshly as he did the scribes and Pharisees: ""Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." Matthew 23:27-28 (RSV)
Again, you fail to explain what makes her worse than a Klansman and would-be ally of Nazis who wanted to overthrow the same Constitution in which he wrapped himself when pleading for his First Amendment rights.
Also, I doubt very much that the same God who decreed "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil"* would pile on to denounce some hapless woman who stood (albeit only in part) against the whims of the ignorant and licentious multitude.
In a typical modern gesture, you thank God that you are virtuous, unlike those evil Pharisees.
*Exodus 23:2-33 (KJV)
To a nudist, a woman who objects to public nudity but is willing to wear a bathig suit at a public beach is doubtless a complete hypocrite. The fact she is willing to wear anything less than a burka doubtless, in the mind of the nudist, completely disproves her claim to be serious and shows her views deserve only contempt.
But would anyone who isn’t a nudist see thngs this way? Zealotry tends to lead activists towards binary thinking. Anything less than 100% in the opposite direction is complete hypocrisy.
But binary thinking is a fundamental error of logic. In most human affairs, there are more than two choices, and people compromise all the time.
There is nothing inherently irrational or hypocritical about compromise or half measures. Indeed, societies often have to compromise to resolve disputes and keep the peace.
To a neutral observer, Ms. Davis is no more inherently a hypocrite than a woman who objects to public nudity but is willing to wear a bathing suit. Going only on part way in a direction that some people go further down is simply a normal human characteristic.
The hypocrisy argument is a classic straw fallacy.
There's also an element of bigotry. She supports marriage for some people but not others. So the better analogy would be that she supported -- and engaged in -- nudity for women, but denied it to men.
Wouldn’t the nudist see things similarly? She’s allowing some people on the beach but not others, not just for no good reason bit for reasons the nudist would find bigoted. She says that she’s against bodily exosure for reasons of modesty, but there’s nothing modest about her - she in fact exposes quite a bit of her body.
In hindsight, Kim Davis should have gone beyond merely begging for a personal exemption from the Obergefell decision, an exemption under which, as she pointed out, her office would still give same-sex "marriage" licenses but without her name attached to it.
What would she have had to lose by a bold, direct attack on the Obergefell decision?
With her narrow approach, did she spare herself vile personal attacks? Did she avoid "$360,000 in emotional damages and attorneys fees"?
No, she got all those things anyway.
It would have been better to be "hanged for a sheep than a lamb" - better to go down fighting against the entirety of that bad, unconstitutional decision rather than to wage a low-stakes campaign which appeared to concede the premise of a "right" to same-sex "marriage" and simply to beg for a personal exemption which wouldn't have made much practical difference as far as limiting the damage of the decision was concerned.
With the enemies of the family and the Constitution - i. e., the friends of the Obergefell decision - going all-out, it's disappointing to see the friends of the family and of ordered liberty fighting for such small stakes.
With Davis' personal-exemption quest, she allowed the foes of the family and the enemies of the Constitution to put forward same-sex "marriage" as normative, as a given, and to confine the discussion to whether dissenters should be graciously permitted to disagree (answer: of course not!).
“ that bad, unconstitutional decision”
Can you explain how it was even bad, let alone unconstitutional? Or is it just vibes and bigoted morality?
See above as to which of us is applying vibes.
If you're going to wake up one morning and decide that a view of marriage which was universally held until the day before yesterday is wrong, it's on you to provide reasons and arguments.
I’ll start by pointing out that what people have believed in the past is irrelevant when it runs into the Constitution. Tradition is a terrible argument for anything if you have nothing else to support your points.
Thinking that “a view of marriage which was universally held until the day before yesterday is wrong” (leaving aside the fact that it was by no means “universally held”) isn’t emotional and “vibes” is something even an elementary school student would say, “What are you talking about?”.
The reasoning and argument is that equal protection is a Constitutional principle. If you extend certain rights and privileges to heterosexuals and deny them to homosexuals, that is a clear violation of a core Constitutional ideal.
“It’s tradition”, on the other hand, is pure emotion.
I could either write an extended disquisition on Chesterton's fence, *or* I could link to someone else who has discussed it.
To use a phrase I learned on this site: I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
https://www.chesterton.org/taking-a-fence-down/
That's stupid. We do know why it was put up.
By the Illuminati?
And what, in your mind, are the negative consequences of discarding the tradition of marriage being limited to heterosexuals?
Chesterton’s fence warns of the dangers of discarding existing systems without considering the implications. Not only did people advocating for same sex marriage consider the implications, their position has turned out to be accurate and the Chicken Little objections of traditionalists and bigots have turned out to be unfounded.
So, again, I challenge you to justify maintaining tradition when there is no objective reason to. Tradition is not, by itself, a societal good. It is something that has to have a rational basis outside of “it’s always been done this way”.
I will point out that summoning a concept without understanding what it says makes your argument weaker, not stronger.
"Not only did people advocating for same sex marriage consider the implications, their position has turned out to be accurate"
No they didn't, and the predictions many of them made made of the good effects did not come true. I even linked to an article about some of those failed predictions, but as I said, I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I think them putting "marriage" in scare quotes in that last paragraph gives answer to that question.
Personally I don't mind if individuals such as this one don't recognise same-sex marriage as real marriage. It would sure be nice if everyone could stop being so weird about it! But the only recognition I really care about is legal recognition: having majority public support (which we do) is just the icing on the cake.
It's not a real marriage in any sense. Gays even had to culturally appropriate our terms and all of our ceremony and tradition around natural marriage. Then, in demented form, they rushed out to adopt children, just like real normal couples, and wear these poor kids around like heterosexual costumes.
Humanity depends upon the male/female binary. Who gives a flying fuck about two degenerates and their terminal genetic lines... at a societal level.
The thing is, I'm not going to shower abuse on bloocow2 simply because I don't think the government should be placing its approval on his lifestyle.
If I did that, I would feed into the belief that disagreement=hatred, a belief which the Westboro Baptist people (and those like them) share with the "gay liberation" folks. The Westboro people and the gay-lib people simply plug different factual assumptions into those moral premises.
Westboro Baptists: We must hate people who do wrong things, so therefore we must hate not only gays, but our own country which has pro-gay policies.
Gay Lib: We must hate people who do wrong things, but we mustn't hate gays, therefore, we must assume that homosexual behavior isn't wrong.
Same premises, different conclusions.
And of course this phenomenon exists beyond the issue of marriage.
Christ said we must love our neighbors, and even our enemies.
Did he *hate* the woman taken in adultery? By modern standards he did, because he told her to "go and sin no more." That shows a clear disagreement with her lifestyle. But he showed by His example that it's possible to oppose someone's lifestyle and still love them.
So even if someone with a different sociopolitical position or lifestyle is an "enemy," you still have to love them.
Is it possible to love someone without adopting the bad policies they support? It must be possible, because Christ gave a universal injunction for love, and he's not going to toy with us by demanding the impossible.
Nowadays, of course, we're all Westboro Baptists, preaching hate against anyone whose views or actions we oppose. Let's not single out the Westboro Baptists, since we see similar hate against political and social enemies across the board, on every issue.
If we hate people who differ with us politically, or who have divergent lifestyles, logically we'll have to hate millions and millions of people. That's exhausting!
Love is easier, albeit still difficult.
“Same premises”
Uh, literally and analogously that’s incorrect. I mean, you have two premises for the “Gay Lib” and one for WB, for starters.
Your summary is incorrect, as can be seen by reading what I wrote.
Start with premise that hate=disagreement.
Plug different alleged facts into the premise and get different results.
But the premise being wrong, you're going to end up with wrong conclusions, no matter which alleged facts you plug into your reasoning.
Bessent is the father of twins. Bessent is married to Prince Charming. Bessent impregnated Prince Charming by sticking his dirty D up his b hole.
I'm sorry you feel that way. But in generations to come, we'll be raising children in happy and healthy family units, teaching them to live and love whoever they want to. And you and people like you will be in the dustbin of history, where you belong.
Do you get yours custom-bred from a handmaid, or do you pick them out from the shelter?
We're planning adoption! Thank you for asking! We'll be sure to convert them to gayness as soon as they're capable of speech and comprehension.
It's actually refreshing talking to homophobes from time to time. Most people irl are too accepting (or too polite) to call us "degenerates" and the like anymore.
Or they correctly realise that what we choose to do with our lives is none of their (or the government's) damn business, which feels like the most libertarian or conservative principle there is.
sadly, some will take the "we'll be sure to convert them" bit seriously.
I'm quite hetero. My younger spawn says she knew she was gay from about the age of 6. Contra the "ooohhh noes, international gay conspiracy!!1!" folks, there was no indonctrination; just biology and neurological development. Which I'm fine with. She seems to have good taste in girlfriends; all I hope is that she is happy and stays happy.
Who would want anything else for their children?
Yes, well, people are going to have weird and misguided beliefs about what the gays do to children, regardless of what I say. Might as well lean into it!
But speaking seriously, I just want my kid to be happy with who they are. If that means being cis heterosexual, great! It will save them a whole lot of trouble from small-minded bigots :/
How would someone the age of 6 'know' they were gay, without some sort of indoctrination? Children that age are basically neuter, they don't HAVE sexual identities.
If somebody that age thinks they're gay, it came from outside.
Different children are different.
I was into girls from when I was 8. Fascinated and terrified of them, not anything sexual.
And that's my point: Being "gay" IS a sexual thing. It's literally sexual attraction to the same sex.
People who are young enough to not experience sexual attraction can't be "gay" OR heterosexual. Neither is applicable to children that young.
Somebody can be "gay" post-puberty, but prior to it, if they think they're 'gay' somebody put that idea into their heads.
Being "gay" IS a sexual thing
This is not true. Love and attraction need not be conterminous with wanting to bump uglies.
They are with you and I, but that's not gotta be the way. The human brain is varied!
You have real trouble understanding people can be different from you. It's a failure of imagination.
"Children that age are basically neuter, they don't HAVE sexual identities."
As always, you state your opinions as if they are fact. Many knowledgable people disagree with that assertion. Sigmund Freud, for starters.
Sigmund Freud was a very sick man, as I'm sure you're aware.
The only authority Brett will recognize in any field is Brett.
Oh come on Brett, you're such a weirdo. Did you really have zero interest in sexual matters until you hit puberty? My elementary school was obsessed. All the way from playing "doctor" and "family" in the early grades to trying out kissing later on. Not to mention learning every possible vocabulary word. Sexuality isn't a lightbulb that just turns on one day. Such a doofus!
“you pick them out from the shelter?”
Left there by heterosexuals.
One incidental benefit of same sex marriage is that now a closeted gay man will be less likely to marry a woman to use as a beard while he is getting tons of hot monkey sex on the downlow.
Actually RepooplicKKKunts issue is homosexual activity in general and so the fact gay marriage has decreased overall gay activity means it has improved America.
Propagation of the species depends on having a sufficient number of women giving birth. That may involve impregnation by a few men or it may be by many. King Solomon, for example, had 700 wives and 300 side pieces, per I Kings 11:3.
It does not, however, depend on marriage. Conception is the sometime result of the sexual union of a virile male and a fertile female. Both parents may be unmarried, both may be married, and one or both may be married, but to a spouse other than the other parent.
Indeed. It is occasionally claimed that a large percentage of Europeans have Genghis Khan as an ancestor.
I find this plausible.
It’s probably great political theater and a good fundraising strategy. But that’s not what courts are for. At some point, judges will need to start cutting her off and impose frivolousness sanctions.
IIRC, the problem was not a demand that she personally approve the licenses. The problem was that she wouldn't even allow her deputy clerks to issue the licenses.
I have always said that Obergefell was wrongly decided and I am in the camp that believes that whatever these relationships are, they are not marriages. That being said, the Court decided otherwise and in our society they get the final word on what the Constitution says.
Rights are not secure if they can be ignored at the whim of every petty government official.
"I have always said that Dred Scott v. Sandford was wrongly decided and I am in the camp that believes that Black people are citizens. That being said, the Court decided otherwise and in our society they get the final word on what the Constitution says."
So in a country with 4 million slaves…what would have changed had Dred Scott been “properly” decided?? Would a Black person in the north had been protected from being sold into slavery?? Of course not and so it would have changed nothing! People that think Dred Scott was “improperly” decided are idiots.
Dred Scott would've been free.
Do you disagree with that?
Certainly, and it's highly unfortunate that judicial supremacists have chosen to agree with Stephen Douglas and to reject Abraham Lincoln.
Let me repeat my previous Stephen Douglas quote from the Lincoln-Douglas debates, so that you can see for yourselves which side you're taking:
"[Lincoln] makes war on the decision of the Supreme Court, in the case known as the Dred Scott case. I wish to say to you, fellow-citizens, that I have no war to make on that decision, or any other ever rendered by the Supreme Court. I am content to take that decision as it stands delivered by the highest judicial tribunal on earth, a tribunal established by the Constitution of the United States for that purpose, and hence that decision becomes the law of the land, binding on you, on me, and on every other good citizen whether we like it or not."
https://nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate3.htm
There was another option. Obergefell could have said that marriage, as traditionally defined, is inherently discriminatory and therefore governments, both federal and state, must have nothing to with it. It would be a religious status only. Governments would have to get out of the marriage license business and treat married and unmarried people the same. Likely a new, more equal institution (civil unions?) would replace marriages from the government's perspective, as the mechanism for encouraging and legislating around families.
It seems worse to me (and an even bigger break with history), but maybe you would prefer it, if your high-order bit really is what the word "marriage" is allowed to refer to.
I am in the camp that believes that whatever these relationships are, they are not marriages.
(And no, separate-but-equal is not an option.)
See, wvattorney13, trying to be halfway pro-marriage, and throwing in some qualifications, won't work. You're either 100% with the anti-marriage crowd, or you're an enemy.
What does "halfway pro-marriage" mean? Lesbians can get married, but not gay men?
Saying he's opposed but accepts Obergefell as a correct interpretation of the Constitution.
Submitting to you isn't enough; he has to enjoy the submission.
I didn't say I accept it as correct. I still think it is wrong. But it is the decision made by the Supreme Court. It is the law of the land.
I can't go and be a clerk issuing marriage licenses and then complain that I have to issue them to gay couples. That's part of the job.
I seem to have heard rhetoric like this before. Ah, yes, here's Stephen Douglas during his famous debates with Abraham Lincoln:
"[Lincoln] makes war on the decision of the Supreme Court, in the case known as the Dred Scott case. I wish to say to you, fellow-citizens, that I have no war to make on that decision, or any other ever rendered by the Supreme Court. I am content to take that decision as it stands delivered by the highest judicial tribunal on earth, a tribunal established by the Constitution of the United States for that purpose, and hence that decision becomes the law of the land, binding on you, on me, and on every other good citizen whether we like it or not."
https://nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate3.htm
In office, Lincoln acted very carefully to comply with it. Legally, the Emancipation Proclamation was about seizing enemy property as an act of war. Manumission was merely a method of disposing of the property.
The position is no less legitimate than people opposing abortion but accepting Roe v. Wade as the law.
Lincoln most certainly did *not* comply with the Dred Scott decision. He signed a law to ban slavery in the territories, which according to the Dred Scott ruling was unconstitutional. His administration also allowed Black Americans to get coasting licenses, which were confined by law to citizens, thus again defying the Dred Scott decision which said Blacks could *not* be citizens.
"people opposing abortion but accepting Roe v. Wade as the law"
In no sense can a person who accepts Roe v. Wade as the law seriously claim to oppose abortion.
So accepting reality is incompatible with anti-abortion beliefs. Yup, that tracks.
It was Lincoln who accepted the *reality* that Dred Scott needed to be resisted and defied.
He could of course have surrendered to the Slave Power as soon as he met with a setback, like Dred Scott. Just as the French surrendered to the Nazis as soon as *they* suffered a setback in 1940. Or the "personally opposed" types surrendered to abortion after the *Roe v. Wade* decision.
And of course, the "reality" you describe, the *Roe* decision, has now been overruled.
(After *Dobbs,* abortion supporters rushed to proclaim that, despite their personal views on abortion, they would submit to the law of the land as proclaimed by the Supreme Court. Just kidding about that, of course!)
I'm sad you didn't answer my question West Virginia. Is this issue entirely about the word being applied, "marriage," for you? Or if not, then what did you mean by
whatever these relationships are, they are not marriages
“ I have always said that Obergefell was wrongly decided”
In what way was it “wrongly decided”? Legally speaking, not your personal opinion.
Sorry, I should clarify that this was intended as a serious question for WVAttorney13.
I'm not from America, but decisions such Obergefell are what allowed me to marry the love of my life, and have that love legally recognised. So I'm tremendously grateful for that, even if the specific legal reasoning they used was flawed. And I'm glad that it hasn't been overturned!
+1
That's too bad.
Davis seems to be a sad sort of person, and almost certainly she has been getting poor legal counsel. I hope that 1) she can keep her job; 2) she's learned some things about Constitutional law; she now fully understands the difference between public service and private enterprise. Not holding my breath though. She's claimed that she's "...been called things and names that I didn’t even say when I was in the world..." Where does she think she is now?
Ms. Davis lost her bid for re-election. And deservedly so, for making her county a laughingstock.
She can get a job at the Ark Encounter…just wait until she finds out Noah was a Jew! 😉
Noah, of course, was not a Jew.
Did you get a look at his penis??
Sam, a Jew originally meant a person from Judea, a land composed of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, which did not exist as a nation until after the death of King Solomon.
Noah long predated Jacob (a/k/a Israel) and his twelve sons.