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"When You Soon Return to Allah": "Harmless Islamic Reference[] About Life and Death" or an "'Absolute' and 'Direct' Threat" to Ex-Wife?
"Allah does not forget, however. This is how people earn their final place in the [h]ereafter."
Colorado Court of Appeals decisions were for a long time not available on Westlaw, and even access to them on the court's own site was limited. They have recently been put online, in batches, and some have come up in my searches; here's In re Weinraub & Carpenter, decided in 2019 by Colorado Supreme Court Justice Monica Márquez (sitting by designation on the Court of Appeals), joined by Judges Stephanie Dunn and James Casebolt:
In 2007, the parties married. During their marriage, father worked as an imam and administrator at a mosque in Denver. For her part, mother worked as a homemaker managing the household affairs and caring for the parties' five children.
In April 2016, following an incident of alleged domestic violence, which resulted in a criminal protection order, mother petitioned for dissolution of marriage…. Both parties are devout Muslims ….
The court upheld certain restrictions on the father's parenting time:
[Colorado law] authorized the district court to restrict father's parenting time so long as there was an allegation that the children were in imminent physical or emotional danger…. [In her petition for such a restriction, m]other included … [an] email exchange in which father wrote the following to mother:
- "You are, therefore, complicate [sic] in this crime of benefitting from a bullying court system that unfairly works in your favor. In accepting what you know is fraudulent, you follow the footsteps of shaitan and earn the anger of Allah." {"[S]haitan" is defined as "the Devil, Satan, or an evil spirit."}
- "When you soon return to Allah and try to act as though you are innocent of this fraud[.] He will not be fooled. Maybe you and the courts will or already have found a devious way of getting me put away forever. Then you can proceed with erasing me from the children's minds as though this offense never happened. Allah does not forget, however. This is how people earn their final place in the [h]ereafter."
- "I pray that whatever happens, my children live and die on Islam."
- "You WILL be questioned as to how you obtained your wealth in the grave. If it is something acquired and used against the [o]rders of Allah then the time in the grave will be very hard and much longer than your time in this world."
- "I am not able therefore to comply with an illegal order that is unclear and does not permit me the capacity to perform my and the children's demonstrative prayer nor spend quality time with my children."
… [M]other's allegations centered around father's instability, including threats on her life and the lives of the children and his disdain in complying with the court's parenting time orders. We conclude, as the district court did, that mother's allegations, if true, presented an imminent physical or emotional danger to the children and the kind of compelling emergency that was sufficient to require a hearing under [Colorado law] ….
Father contends that [a later] parenting time restriction order violated his First Amendment right to religious freedom. He asserts, as we understand it, that the court's finding that his email communications … were threats and not statements "about his belief in the [h]ereafter" precludes him from making any such references in the future without the court making a finding of endangerment. We perceive no error.
A parent has the [constitutional] right to exercise freely his or her religion …. "The free exercise of religion means, first and foremost, the right to believe and profess whatever religious doctrine one desires."
The district court was not convinced by father's testimony that his email communications were harmless Islamic references about life and death. The court described father's email communications as "disturbing" and found that his statements were threatening. The court pointed out that his statements referenced death toward mother and the children, and that one in particular, "when you soon return to Allah," was an "absolute" and "direct" threat to mother. Based on these findings and credibility determinations, the court did not abuse its discretion in concluding that the children were endangered and that it was appropriate to continue the restriction on father's parenting time.
Here, the parenting time restriction order, as father suggests, does not preclude him from making any Islamic references in the future. Instead, the order precludes threatening statements involving the death of the children and mother. Thus, the court's order did not violate father's First Amendment right to religious freedom….
Kevin Walton, Luke W. Mecklenburg, Lawrence Myers, and Timothy P. Scalo (Snell & Wilmer L.L.P.) and Jordan Saint John (Saint John Law LLC) represented the mother.
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Islam can be a bizarre religion, and this guy's beliefs make him sound like a whack-job.
It's understandable that the court would want to find a pretext to deny him his parenting time.
Islam is not a religion. It's an occult death cult.
Of course it is. But the court can't say that.
That's why it had to do the trick with the reference to the hereafter.
Right wingers have this weird tic where they declare everything to be a religion — environmentalism, transgender ideology, etc. — except Islam.
David, you have this weird tick of snarking without thinking.
Islam is a religion, Islamism is a religious death cult. It has little to do with the occult.
Yes, it can lead to some confusion when a “religion” adopts the practices of a death cult. I guess maybe not murdering non-believers might help their reputation.
Other than the reference to being judged soon you could replace much of it with St Peter instead of Allah and it wouldn't be that bad. The court may not like having it's rigged nature spoken about but it's not illegal.
He may be violent but other than that one word none of this is threatening in what was selected.
See my comment below. There’s nothing the least bit out of the ordinary with what this man said. Both “you will have to answer to God in the afterlife for what you are doing” and “life on this earth is short but the hereafter is forever” are ordinary religious beliefs that traditionally religious people tend to say. A Christian would use different verbiage but say very similar things.
I very much disagree with the ruling. That doesn't sound to me like a threat at all. It would be like a Christian saying, "When you stand before God on judgment day, you will regret...."
Completely agree. These are ordinary religious references, very similar to ones a religious Christian with traditional theology might make.
Agree.
But "when you stand before [imaginary sky dude] on judgment day" is different from "when you soon return to [imaginary sky dude]".
I'm in the "pretty weak evidence" camp myself, but I also think it's important to consider the exact statements the court relied on.
He also wrote life on this earth is short, which makes “soon” seem pretty benign in context.
Yep, the “soon” is weak in isolation and even weaker in context.
That is a typical religious reference---life is short and fleeting. We will all be dead soon, so don't go around doing bad X and think that you will get away with it. To construe this as a threat ignores the very plain meaning and is only reached by adding words or interpreting the ones there in the most unsupported way.
If I told you that you were soon going to meet your maker - yes, that is a religious reference, and could also be a threat. That it is one does not mean it's less likely or not possible to be the other. That the speaker may have intended it in one way does not mean they could not simultaneously mean it the other.
I concur with this observation. "When you soon return to Allah", "When you soon return to Jesus", or "When you soon return to Jehovah" should all be interpreted in the same manner. Dislike of Islam is not a coherent legal argument that adheres to the 1st Amd.
Christianity/Islam/etc. isn't the correct question, it's whether "when you soon return to [imaginary sky dude of your choice]" is a threat.
"Jehovah"
If you are attempting to make a Jewish reference, you fail.
Jehovah is just a poor translation of a version of HaShem's name. No Jew ever used it.
Oh noes, you got me! I used a commonly-understood Latinization of a Hebrew word, one that people might recognize! Good thing I'm not jewish, nor do I claim to be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah
But FFS, that's all you bring to the table? Worthless and weak.
"Good thing I'm not jewish,"
Totally agree!
Was there a point? Are are you just doing the modwit 'uhm, *akchewally*' thing.
In my opinion when a phrase is commonly used in a non-threatening manner it should be shown by clear and convincing evidence that the person meant it in the odd, unusual, and illegal way. On this record it doesn't even come close.
You will soon meet you maker or equivalents are *rarely* used in a non-threatening manner - even if the threat is often a joke.
I think he was treated unfairly. The email says nothing more than “you will have to answer to Allah in the afterlife for what you are doing,” together with a reminder that life on this earth is short while life in the hereafter is forever. All of these are ordinary religious concepts which are not in any way unique to Islam. Many Christian ministers and preachers (and traditionally religious laity) routinely use expressions that are very similar. They are not in the least bit unusual, let alone bizarre. It strikes me as a rather strained and possibly bigoted reading to interpret it as a threat of violence or as evidence of mental instability.
I am no fan of Islam, but I have to agree with those who do not perceive these statements as threats of violence by the husband. They're warnings of retribution in the afterlife. My interpretation might be altered if there was other evidence of the husband being violent or threatening his ex-wife, but in isolation I think the court erred.
On the other hand, he also says that he will not comply with what he considers an illegal order. Such an explicit statement would indeed justify the court in taking measures to ensure that he does so.
Agreed on all point, especially the statement that he will not comply with the Court's order. That should have been the start (AND THE STOP) of the lower court's analysis.
(I am only engaging with the statements provided; additional evidence of actual threats or violence would be acceptable, but this is just typical religious talk but with a SCARY use of terms that are common if you have even a basic understanding of other religions.)
"They're warnings of retribution in the afterlife. "
Sure, if we completely ignore Islamic behavior from 1979 to today.
I'm quite familiar with Islamic behavior, from the seventh century onward. That doesn't change the fact that there is no reason to believe that these statements refer to anything other than retribution in the afterlife. The fact that a religion in the large has a tendency to enforce its rules by force does not mean that an individual adherent in a personal context intends to do so.
"does not mean"
No, but its the way to bet.
If you look at Christianity historically, it’s not exactly any different. Would you be willing to say the same thing about Christians? If they refer to the afterlife, because of their history that means they’re making a threat of violence?
Just as a reminder: Israelis have killed 18,000+ children in Gaza over the last couple of years.
The united States killed more children in Dresden alone in one day.
Your point? The United States is committed genocide in WWII and should apologize to Germany for having fought against it? Bullshit. You don’t want war brought to your soil, don’t attack another, at least not one that’s capable of defending itself.
And how many have Gazans killed by supporting the Hamas genocide of Jews?
Just as a reminder: Hamas statistics are worthless.
Gazans killed by supporting
Supporting something is not what kills people.
Yeah, I agree. I don't think the mere inclusion of the word "soon" is enough to transform the statement into a threat. He said in writing he won't comply with a court order. That's all that's necessary to work from.
Especially in the context of his statement that life on earth is short.
I agree with that part and it should have been enough to decide the case.
A short, "Father has repeatedly asserted that he will not abide by this Court's orders. Therefore the Court is unable to find that unrestricted parenting time would be in the best interests of the child."
I thought that there was something wrong with the Court's reasoning, so I did a simply test-
You are, therefore, complicit in this crime of benefitting from a bullying court system that unfairly works in your favor. In accepting what you know is fraudulent, you follow the footsteps of Satan and earn the anger of God. When you soon return to the teachings of Jesus and try to act as though you are innocent of this fraud, He will not be fooled.
Maybe you and the courts will, or already have, found a devious way of getting me put away forever. Then you can proceed with erasing me from the children's minds as though this offense never happened. God does not forget, however. This is how people determine their final place in the afterlife.
I pray that whatever happens, my children live and die knowing the teachings of Jesus. You WILL be questioned as to how you obtained your wealth at the Pearly Gates. If that wealth was acquired through sin and depravity, then the riches of heaven will be denied you and your afterlife is much longer than your time in this world.
I am not able therefore to comply with an illegal order that is unclear and does not permit me the capacity to join my children in church on Sundays nor spend quality time with my children.
I mean, I'm not a big fan of religion, but it's not something I think would be out of line from a lot of the commenters here, and given a big thumbs-up by SCOTUS (who would probably just create additional "facts," like .... "And this father also saved 40 orphans from a burning orphanage while Big Gummint was trying to force him to bake a GAY WEDDING CAKE and keep him from praying, too.").
"When You Soon Return to Allah" sounds like an Islamic version of "When you return to Jesus". The guy IS am Imam after all.
Now if he had said "When I soon return you to Allah" she might have a case.
In my day it was "Jesus called him home"
Which is why I've got His number blocked.
Frank
It is the "soon" part that is the problem. Yes, one can if one chooses to squint a little to see that "soon" was some nebulous time in the future. But, the trial court, that was privy to much more than just this written word, could reasonably presume that to be a threat. This is why Appellate Courts routinely defer to findings of trial courts as to facts and reasonable interpretation of those facts. Sad that the Supreme Court no longer sees it that way.
Compared to the eternity of the afterlife, life in this world is brief.
How is that a threat?
I agree with the commenters above. The only even remotely threatening word there is "soon," and that's far too thin a reed to hang the limiting of parental rights on.
His point is pretty clear. Compared to the eternity of the afterlife, the span of mortal life is brief. He used the word “long” to describe the afterlife later in the email (“much longer than your time in this world”). Using “short” to describe this life is completely consistent with the overall theme, which is basically “consider the consequences in the afterlife of what you are doing here, and compare the eternal costs to any brief benefits now.”) You have to be pretty religiously illiterate not to see that.
You are all ignoring an important part of the context. There was evidence of domestic violence towards the mother and the children such that the court had already entered at least one order restricting the father's time with the children. The father's communications refer to that order.
The dispute over the emails came up in the context of continuing the initial order. Note the Court of Appeals holding: "Based on these findings and credibility determinations, the court did not abuse its discretion in concluding that the children were endangered and that it was appropriate to continue the restriction on father's parenting time."
So, the court was not working from a clean slate here.
That doesn't move the needle for me. By all means, if the other evidence showed DV and there is no showing of improvement, that could be a reason by itself to not alter the prior order.
But simply because he committed DV in the past does not convert his use of a common religious saying into meaning something completely different. The whole point of a threat is that the person receiving it gets the message. You don't play hide the ball with it.
Direct threat. Thank goodness the court was not swayed by the climate of "any criticism of Islam is Islamophobia" mentality. if you listen they will tell you exactly who they are.