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The Line Between Conduct and Speech, Between Treatment and Non-Treatment
On Tuesday, the Court heard oral argument in Chiles v. Salazar. This case considers the constitutionality of Colorado's ban on conversion therapy.
As a general rule, the First Amendment protects speech, but not conduct. It is true that some conduct, like flag-burning, has speech-like properties, so is protected by the First Amendment. It is also true that some speech incidental to conduct is not fully protected by the First Amendment. The doctrine here is complex.
During argument, several Justices asked how to draw the line between "treatment" and "non-treatment." This questions seemed to presume that treatment would not be protected by the First Amendment, while non-treatment (that is speech) was protected by the First Amendment.
Colorado argues that therapy that consists entirely of speaking is still a form of medical treatment, and is therefore considered conduct, rather than protected speech. Chiles, by contrast, argued that her therapy that consists entirely of speaking is not a form of medical treatment, and should be considered speech rather than conduct.
I'm not sure the line between treatment and non-treatment really matters. James Campbell, counsel for Chiles, explained that the line doesn't matter "because the First Amendment depends on the difference between speech and conduct, not on the difference between treatment and non-treatment." And I agree with Hashim Mooppan, the Deputy Solicitor General, that treatment and non-treatment are just "labels" that don't make a conceptual difference.
Still, I think there might be a way to draw this line based on how the care is received. First, care that consists entirely of talk, which implicates only the senses of hearing and sight, is not medical treatment. Second, care that is not limited to talk, which implicates the senses of touch, taste, or smell, would be medical treatment. The First Amendment protects the former category of care, but not the latter category of care.
So-called "aversive" therapy, which might include electro-shock therapy, is not limited to talk, but implicates the sense of touch, so would be medical treatment. I don't think any would argue that shock therapy is protected speech. Providing a patient with medicine that they have to ingest would implicate the sense of taste, so would be medical treatment. Any type of surgery that requires a scalpel would clearly be medical treatment.
The treatment at issue in Chiles does not involve any physical touching. And Chiles is not licensed to prescribe medicine or perform any sorts of medical treatment. Her all-talk care, which can only be heard, is not treatment, and is not conduct, but is speech.
I don't think this issue is conceptually difficult under the First Amendment.
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Where would a dietitian fit in?
First, care that consists entirely of talk, which implicates only the senses of hearing and sight, is not medical treatment. Second, care that is not limited to talk, which implicates the senses of touch, taste, or smell, would be medical treatment.
Louis Braille is on the phone and begs to differ.
Incense manufacturers and spice merchants would like a word.
As I wrote on the open thread, Colorado's solicitor general did a poor job of defending the statute.
Of course counsel for an appellee will ordinarily defend the reasoning of the court below, but I believe that the State should have argued in the alternative that, if the statute is a content-based regulation of speech as the plaintiff contends, it nevertheless can survive strict scrutiny review -- especially on the evidentiary record developed at the preliminary injunction stage.
Let me illustrate by means of a hypothetical. Suppose a state legislature enacts a statute declaring that it is unprofessional conduct for a licensed psychotherapist to recommend that a client who wishes to quit smoking do so by means of shooting a bullet into his temple, and any licensee who does so is subject to professional discipline. That would amount to a content-based prohibition of speech, but the state could easily show that it is supported by a compelling governmental interest in preserving the client's life, which interest could not be achieved by means less restrictive of the therapist's speech.
If SCOTUS decides that strict scrutiny applies to the challenged statute, the remedy here should be to remand to the District Court for a new evidentiary hearing on the plaintiff's application for a preliminary injunction.
the state could easily show that it is supported by a compelling governmental interest in preserving the client's life
"easily" is working very hard here. Supposing that there was a constitutional right to abortion, of equivalent standing to the 1A right to free speech, then why would the government not be able to "easily" show that it has a compelling government interest in preserving the offspring's life ?
Even more compelling indeed, since the client who is advised to shoot himself in the head is an adult with agency, pursuing the "treatment" voluntarily. Whereas the offspring is not. The government's interest in interfering with adult's decisions about themselves would seem to be a zone in which the government's interests are at their least compelling.
Returning to the case itself, I should have thought it would be rather difficult for the government to show a compelling government interest in preventing talk-only conversion "therapy."
Which, I guess, is why they went down the route they went down.
Government licensure necessarily involves the infringement of professional speech.
If we think that a government should be able to prohibit a psychiatrist from telling a patient to harm himself or others, but that a mere friend of the patient should not be so restricted (and I would presume that most would agree with this delineation), then we must acknowledge why that delineation is a valid one.
One approach is to deem shrink "talk" as "conduct" (inc. incidental speech related thereto) which falls outside 1A. Alternatively, we simply acknowledge the government's interest in making sure an unlicensed person cannot falsely present himself as a professional.
This is conceptually difficult for Blackman.
Alternatively, we simply acknowledge the government's interest in making sure an unlicensed person cannot falsely present himself as a professional.
Let's break that down a little. Let's stipulate, for the sake of argument, that the government has an interest in making sure that a person selling some expertise actually has the claimed expertise.
Your formulation doesn't quite fit into that. First because "professional" is not equal to "licensed." What is equal to "licensed" is "licensed." An unlicensed person may have far more expertise than a licensed person. And if we are to treat "licensed" as a legally good enough proxy for "bursting with expertise" then we still have to cope with the fact that someone unlicensed by the State of Colorado may be licensed by the State of Kansas. Or France, etc.
If the licensed activity is mere talk, what interest does the State of Colorado have in preventing people licensed by Kansas or France flapping their lips at Colorado residents ? Particularly since the lip flapping could happen over Zoom from Kansas or France anyway ?
I don't see any problem with Colorado having a licensing system for mere-talk therapists / whatev, with whatever voodoo Colorado thinks should be required to get your license. If you then offer your services to a Coloradan customer, in Colorado, claiming to be licensed by the State of Colorado, that's a fib as to your licensed status and it's reasonable enough for Colorado to sanction you if your fib was material to getting some cash out of the Colorado resident.
But if you don't claim to be licensed by Colorado, you're not fibbing, so they have no grounds either to punish you for fibbing - because you're not - or to attempt to sanction you for talking while unlicensed. Because 1A.
So... you've gotten yourself 90% of the way through Colorado's argument.
The only thing remaining is whether or not it's ok for Colorado to treat "offering psychiatric therapy" as equivalent to " claiming to be licensed." That is, can Colorado residents presume that their psychiatrists are licensed, or do they have to ask? Is the answer to that question different for different licensed professions, and why?
Not quite sure what your point is. The lady in question is in fact licensed, and the case concerns whether - as a licensed person - she may or may not flap her lips and only her lips to a particular tune. I was just responding to Anonymustard's suggestion about someone falsely representating themselves as licensed.
She's not - as I understand it - claiming to offer "psychiatric" therapy, since that typically permits the prescription of drugs. And Colorado isn't claiming that conversion therapy is not therapy, they're just saying that they think it's harmful therapy even when conducted solely in words. This has nothing to do with her misrepresenting herself, it has to do with whether the government has a strict scrutiny interest in preventing her saying her piece.
Which seems to be to be highly doubtful. Particularly since virtually anyone else in the state is not prevented from saying the same piece.
I don't see any problem with Colorado having a licensing system for mere-talk therapists / whatev, with whatever voodoo Colorado thinks should be required to get your license.
So Colorado loses this case but yanks her license. Fine, yeah?
The lady in question is in fact licensed...
Not once she loses it for performing conversion therapies on minors.
No, I have no problem with Colorado having whatever rules they like for giving or taking away licenses for anything. They can issue licenses for drinking OJ if they want. So long as they don't have other rules saying you can't do this or that without that license.
If they have the second type of rule, then we have to worry about whether it's regulating speech.
Right so, then you get to Colorado's outcome. Licensed therapists can't perform conversion therapies. Unlicensed people can do whatever they want, as long as they don't pretend to be licensed, which is to say, they can't hold their services out to be "psychiatry" or "counseling" since those are presumptively licensed.
Licensed therapists can't perform conversion therapies.
"Can't" in the sense that the government can, at first blush, remove their license. Though if the offense that results in the removal of the license is mere talk, there are 1A hoops that the government must leap through. Such as strict scrutiny of the government's alleged compelling interest in preventing that particular bout of mere talk.
Unlicensed people can do whatever they want, as long as they don't pretend to be licensed, which is to say, they can't hold their services out to be "psychiatry" or "counseling" since those are presumptively licensed.
Nah. And double nah for "counseling."
"Let me counsel you, young Randal."
and
"Let me counsel you, young Randal. And you'd better listen because I am licensed by the State of Colorado to counsel young whelps like you."
do not mean the same thing.
I think what you're really getting at is the idea that passing yourself of as something that you're not, which is generally achieved by talking, is the sort of material lie that might sneak outside 1A's protection. But the fact that you happen to think anyone who calls themselves a counsellor must presumably be a counsellor currently licensed by the state you live in does not make the unlicensed, or licensed elsewhere, or used to be licensed, counsellor a liar.
can Colorado residents presume that their psychiatrists are licensed, or do they have to ask? Is the answer to that question different for different licensed professions, and why?
As to that, if Colorado really thinks the difference between a customer having to ask about the service provider's qualifications, as opposed to looking at a certificate on the wall, can rise to the level of a compelling state interest - well it doesn't seem very compelling to me.
"...which interest could not be achieved by means less restrictive of the therapist's speech."
Couldn't it be achieved by the client declining to follow the advice?
Unclear on the concept of state action, TIP? The dispute in Colorado is about the circumstances under which state authorities can impose discipline upon licensed professionals.
What does that have to do with my comment? How can the state easily show that such a ban is necessary to prevent clients from shooting themselves in order to quit smoking?
Maybe it's too extreme an example. A licensed professional recommending an unwise course of action that might seem plausible (taking way too much of a particular over-the-counter drug, say) may be persuasive (in part because professionals have more authority, in part because the state licensed them). Caveat emptor might be OK in a truly extreme case like advising the patient to shoot themself.
Couldn't it be achieved by the client declining to follow the advice?
I like how excited you guys are to tell kids who they should or shouldn't be fucking and how they should best experience their own genitals, while at the same time you're terrified of them seeing a man in a dress. What a weird way to live! I wouldn't be able to stand the cognitive dissonance and intentional ignorance myself.
"....how they should best experience their own genitals..."
Attached. And right-side out.
I think you need to provide more justification for your claim that the law survives state scrutiny. What is exactly is the compelling interest? By what legal authority or precedent is it compelling? Your analogy does not seem on point. Nobody is going to die here. So an analogy involving life or death doesn’t seem relevant. Do you have a more on point analogy?
"Nobody is going to die here. So an analogy involving life or death doesn’t seem relevant."
Au contraire. I chose that particular hypothetical carefully.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36963209/
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2024/09/conversion-practices-lgbt.html
1. Are you claiming that a statistical link between a category of speech and depression, PTSD and suicidality is sufficient to create a compelling interest to ban that speech?
2. The article doesn't claim a link between any particular practice and the harmful effects. It doesn't say if they were from attempts to change gender ID, or sexual orientation. It doesn't say if they were from talk-only therapy, or hooking up electrodes to somebody's nuts.
3. Other issues like correlation/causation, etc.
Are you seriously disputing that suicide prevention for vulnerable adolescents is a compelling governmental interest?
I'm saying that a link between conversion therapy and suicide doesn't show that banning conversion therapy is necessary to prevent suicide.
It could just as easily be a matter of the people who aren't interested in conversion therapy statistically being the ones who are more comfortable with whatever they'd be converted from.
That's a very dangerous line of argument you're making NG.
Your argument in essence breaks down to if a particular type of speech is engaged in and there is a statistical correlative increase in the death rate, the government can should be able to ban that type of speech.
Is that the argument you really want to be making?
poor analogy -
counselling a patient to commit suicide would be effectively being an accomplice to murder.
I agree and, frankly, find this attempt to draw fine distinctions to border on the absurd. When one is speaking, he is engaging in speech, and if the government wishes to restrict that speech, it must demonstrate a compelling reason to do so, the very high hurdle of "struct scrutiny".
The ultimate outcome of this case is virtually certain, the only mystery being whether 6, 7, 8, or 9 justices will decide this statute does not pass constitutional muster. The only other question is whether the Supreme Court will apply strict scrutiny now, or waste everybody's time by remanding the case with instructions to apply strict scrutiny.
"The ultimate outcome of this case is virtually certain, the only mystery being whether 6, 7, 8, or 9 justices will decide this statute does not pass constitutional muster. The only other question is whether the Supreme Court will apply strict scrutiny now, or waste everybody's time by remanding the case with instructions to apply strict scrutiny."
F. D. Wolf, have you ever litigated the constitutionality of a state statute? The standard of review is hugely important, and that affects how the litigants structure and present their evidence.
This matter is before the Court on appeal from the issuance of a preliminary injunction, not after a full blown trial on the merits. If the District Court applied the incorrect standard of review, then remand is appropriate, with the burden remaining on the Plaintiff to prove, according to the proper standard of judicial review: (1) that she’s substantially likely to succeed on the merits, (2) that she’ll suffer irreparable injury if the court denies the injunction, (3) that her threatened injury (without the injunction) outweighs the opposing party’s under the injunction, and (4) that the injunction isn’t adverse to the public interest.
The Court may very well remand the case for the district court to apply the proper standard of strict scrutiny. (Are you conceding that is the proper standard? Because I believe it rather obviously is and am virtually certain the Court will say so).
But there may be reasons to forego remand. If the Court believes that the state cannot possibly meet that standard, then delay only prolongs the harm the plaintiff is suffering under an unconstitutional law. Say, hypothetically, a state passed a law prohibiting newspapers from criticizing the government. A newspaper sued to enjoin enforcement of the law, but a district court upheld the law, holding it passed rational-basis scrutiny (the palpably wrong standard to apply). Would an appeals court bother to remand the case for the district court to apply the correct standard? I seriously doubt it. It would almost certainly articulate the correct standard and hold it was not met.
Additionally, in this case, in her original filing and in her appeal, the plaintiff argued that the proper standard was strict scrutiny and that the state could not meet the standard. So, the state has already had the chance to rebut that argument bus has not (probably because it is fairly confident it cannot).
So. maybe the Court will remand, and maybe it won't, but ultimately, I am fairly certain the result will be the same.
One more time. Have you ever litigated the constitutionality of a state statute?
The Colorado Solicitor General defended the rationale of the Tenth Circuit but, in my opinion improvidently, failed to make the argument in the alternative that, if strict scrutiny applies, the State can show upon remand that this statute satisfies strict scrutiny.
At the preliminary injunction hearing before the District Court, the Plaintiff bore the burden of proving the preliminary injunction factors. If there is a remand for a new hearing applying strict scrutiny, the State will bear the burden of proof. If you can't recognize the difference between the two litigation postures, you are simply a damned incompetent.
Relax, princess. I see you're obviously very emotional about this topic, whereas I am not, and any further interaction would only serve to agitate you further. Perhaps some "talk therapy" would help you.
If you feel I'm "a damned incompetent", please feel free to ignore my posts in the future, and I promise to return the favor. In fact, lest I again feel tempted to tangle with your titanic intellect, I will place you on mute, allowing you to share your Solomonesque wisdom only with those worthy to receive it.
Calling people names shows how calm you are, yes.
He was clearly agitated, not over the merits, which would be odd enough, but over the question of whether a case should be remanded or not, which does not strike me as rational or emotionally balanced behavior. Perhaps others might disagree, but I do not care to have any more interaction with such a character if I have a choice in the matter, which, in this case, I do.
For the benefit of readers who don't have me muted, a factual record on an application for injunctive relief is developed in the trial court, not before SCOTUS. The Supreme Court is a court of review, now of first view. The granting or denial of injunctive relief is subject to appellate review for abuse of discretion. A district court that applies an incorrect standard of law abuses its discretion.
A plaintiff seeking a preliminary injunction must establish that he is likely to succeed on the merits, that he is likely to suffer irreparable harm in the absence of preliminary relief, that the balance of equities tips in his favor, and that an injunction is in the public interest. Winter v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc., 555 U.S. 7, 20 (2008). A preliminary injunction is an extraordinary remedy never awarded as of right. In each case, courts “must balance the competing claims of injury and must consider the effect on each party of the granting or withholding of the requested relief.” Id., at 24, quoting Amoco Production Co. v. Gambell, 480 U.S. 531, 542 (1987). "An injunction is a matter of equitable discretion; it does not follow from success on the merits as a matter of course." Winter, at 32.
In granting or refusing an interlocutory injunction, the court must state the findings and conclusions that support its action, per Fed.R.Civ.P. 52(a)(2). Findings of fact, whether based on oral or other evidence, must not be set aside unless clearly erroneous, and the reviewing court must give due regard to the trial court's opportunity to judge the witnesses’ credibility. Rule 52(a)(6).
The issuance or denial of a preliminary injunction is (or should be) a fact bound exercise. A district court is far better suited than an appellate court to make factual findings and balance the Winter factors than the Supreme Court.
Not all regulations of speech trigger strict scrutiny. In this case Colorado argues the regulation of speech is incidental to a regulation of conduct and precedent supports rational basis review in that case. To be sure, you could view the regulation as applied to Chiles as solely being on speech (she only uses speech in her therapy). However, there are two counter arguments to that claim: 1) it's a regulation of medical treatment even when it is a regulation of only speech and therefore incidental to the speech, and 2) even if the speech is viewed as speech, new doctrine should be established that allows states to regulate speech which they believe is quackery in a licensed medical practice.
Do you believe that a law which banned speech-only therapy from a licensed practitioner that affirms one's sexual orientation triggers strict scrutiny?
A marker. If this is free speech that cannot be regulated, then advising someone of abortion options is also free speech. Any law prohibiting it, or allowing people to sue for so advising should also fall.
Katall, I agree, UNLESS we're talking about government speech, or a condition for accepting government funding, right? In that case, the government can constrain/direct speech, because it's not the speaker's voice, but that of the State. Like Kim Davis. Isn't that the current state of the law? Because otherwise, what you're arguing is that Colorado could constrain talk therapists from voicing a disapproved view of abortion (either pro or con, doesn't matter.)
Assume the law as applied to Chiles is struck down as a content based regulation of speech.
Nonetheless, the law which required doctors to give informed consent in the form of compelled speech in Planned Parenthood v. Casey would still be permissible. In NIFLA v. Becerra, SCOTUS affirmed this speech compulsion as a regulation of conduct (abortion) that was incidental to the speech compulsion. That is, the medical treatment being regulated was clearly conduct. In contrast under the above assumption, SCOTUS would hold the medical treatment being regulated in this case is speech.
I understand that to be the law. NIFLA v. Becerra rejected the "professional speech" exception and held that California could not force "crisis pregnancy centers" to give a notice encouraging women to go elsewhere to get abortions. In the other direction, there are more recent lower court cases allowing people to tell women in red states that they can go get an abortion in a blue state. The "imminent lawless action" standard should apply to referrals for illegal abortions. ("Travis County is a good place to go" vs. "I'll make an appointment for you at Mandy's back alley abortion van.")
Professor Blackman,
Your post completely sidesteps the fact that the state is not prohibiting Chiles from speaking in a religious or unlicensed counselor capacity. The prohibition is only in her capacity as a licensed counselor. If all therapy that involves "talk" is speech which cannot be regulated, then how can any counseling which involves talk be regulated. Attorneys provide talk-only counseling, which is certainly regulated. Is the requirement to have a law license to provide legal services a First Amendment infringement?
There are absolutely compelling government interests to regulate professional speech, whether that be legal services, counseling, or psychiatry. This case should come down to whether the potential for self-harm, as shown by the state, can be mitigated by the prohibition of conversion therapy, and if so, whether this prohibition is the least restrictive means for mitigating that harm.
"Is the requirement to have a law license to provide legal services a First Amendment infringement?"
I believe you were attempting a reductio ad absurdum, but it fails if people look at it and say, you know, maybe it's not all that absurd.
No it's an actual example that the Fourth Circuit addressed. Not absurd. Look it up yourself! (Or see my summary below.) Would love your thoughts on the case
Capital Industries Inc. v. Stein actually addresses my legal licensure example above. The Fourth Circuit held that the statute did not impact the communicative aspects of the practice of law but rather the requirements of who may become a lawyer. The court used the exception of speech that is incidental to conduct to apply rational basis review Any speech effects of the law were “merely incidental to the primary objective of regulating the conduct of the profession.”
I am fine with that justification as well, although it essentially broadens the exception to cover all professional speech. I would prefer that strict scrutiny was applied and upheld rather than simply treated as the end of the inquiry, though.
Sorry for the late response.
Seems to me there are two separate issues being conflated: placing conditions on those seeking a license, and requiring those who want to speak in certain contexts to have a license.
To take the example of a licensed professional engineer: I have no problem with viewpoint-based restrictions on the license, e.g. if you insist on producing stamped drawings that disagree with generally accepted safety standards we're going to pull your license. The whole point of the license is to assure people that you understand and accept those standards and the state is checking.
I also have no problem with going after people who falsely claim to be state licensed when they're not, or who claim to be working according to license requirements when they're in violation. That's just plain old fraud.
I do have a problem, or at least doubts, about laws that say you can't offer engineering advice to the public without a license, even if you clearly inform clients that you don't have a license. There are freedom of speech issues as well as the libertarian idea that it's a transaction between consenting, informed adults.
BTW, Reason authors sometimes fail to make this distinction. They defended a guy who lied about being a licensed engineer, on the basis that he shouldn't have needed a license.
To me that doesn't fly. It's legal to sell gas with or without ethanol. It's not legal to lie about it.
So in the current case, I'd rule: She's not entitled to the license. She is entitled to offer the service for pay, without a license.
This is ridiculous.
"Talk therapy" is treatment. Blackman clearly doesn't understand that, and I'm afraid the RW Justices don't either. There is, after all, much they don't understand, or pretend not to, in the interest of advancing MAGA.
It's disgusting.
But why should treatment/nontreatment be a primary concept, as distinct from speech/non-speech? Why should it matter to the First Amendment (as distinct from medical professionals) whether something is considered “treatment” or not any more than it matters to the First Amendment (as distinct from journalists or entertainers) whether something is considered “news” or “entertainment” or not?
As a normative manner, it strikes me that medical treatment that is quackery should be within the reach of state regulation whether it is speech or not. And, it shouldn't require overcoming strict scrutiny for the state to ban what it thinks is quackery.
medical treatment that is quackery...the state to ban what it thinks is quackery
Those are, of course, not necessarily the same thing.
Are you willing to completely go over to what I call the Utterance Theory of Government? Example of UTG thinking: To suspend habeas corpus, it doesn't matter whether there actually is an invasion, it only matters whether the president utters the word invasion.
On the specific issue here: if some other state declares affirming care to be quackery, would you say that settles the matter?
Yes (subject to pressure on the elected branches in the form of elections). In the alternative, perhaps intermediate scrutiny should apply. But, it likely isn't a good idea to leave it up to the judiciary to make the call.
But why should treatment/nontreatment be a primary concept, as distinct from speech/non-speech?
Because professional speech by a licensed individual carries with it the imprimatur of the government, not to mention of the various organizations whose splendid certificates hang on the speaker's wall.
Further, it purports to actually provide, in itself, without the addition of any physical treatment, without medication, without specific action by the recipient, to provide a medical benefit. It is not just advice or opinion.
One thing to note is the limited nature of the law.
The counselor, for instance, can opine on the subject.
They can refer someone to a religious counselor (or secular alternative) who is not licensed. A person who wants conversion therapy can obtain it from non-licensed providers.
Stop trying to control what people are allowed to say.
The advocate from the Trump Administration tried to control what people could say by noting that licensed therapists could be stopped from encouraging people to commit suicide.
Can't anybody be stopped if the encouragement is likely to succeed?
See Commonwealth v. Carter, 474 Mass. 624 (2016) and 481 Mass. 352 (2019). The defendant encouraged her boyfriend to commit suicide and he did. She was convicted of manslaughter.
The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusets affirmed and the Supreme Court of the United States denied certiorari.
I remember a weird news story where an impatient passerby told somebody way up on a bridge to get it over with and jump. If I recall correctly that was in Asia and the First Amendment did not control the legal outcome.
"'Talk therapy' is treatment."
Just because it's treatment doesn't mean it's not speech.
True.
But there are lots classes of unprotected speech, which remain speech.
Justice Sottomeyor raised an argument at the beginning that there is no standing, because Colorado said it does not lan to enforce the law against pure talk theray and there is no realistic prospect of enforcement.
Is there a standing argument? Or is standing simply waived on issues the majority would really like to rule on come up?
MS. STEVENSON: The change in sexual
orientation or identity is the key to --
JUSTICE GORSUCH: And that would give
her standing?
MS. STEVENSON: That would.
JUSTICE GORSUCH: Okay.
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Because you're not
disavowing that?
MS. STEVENSON: No.
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Okay. So that
settles the standing question
How does the legal system distinguish this case from the cases striking down laws requiring licenses to work as tour guides?
https://reason.com/2019/05/21/the-first-amendment-protects-the-right-to-work-as-a-tour-guide-says-federal-judge/
It's also not clear what the statue prohibits.
If a patient self-identifies as a man, but feels acute distress because he feels like he was born in the wrong body and should be a woman, and the wants therapy to help him accept his identity as a man, would that be prohibited?
Au contraire. The statute is plain about what does or does not constitute conversion therapy, which is defined in the MCTL as:
Colo. Rev. Stat. § 12-245-202(3.5).
In your hypothetical, if a patient (who is a minor) self-identifies as a man, but feels acute distress because he feels like he was born in the wrong body and should be a woman, and he wants therapy to help him accept his identity as a man, that patient does not seek to change his sexual orientation or gender identity. The practice or treatment there would seek to provide acceptance, support, and understanding for the facilitation of the patient’s coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, which is expressly excluded from the definition of conversion therapy.
I don't think that's right NG. Or if it is, the case is moot because there's no such thing as "attempting to change someone's identity" if a person can just identify as whatever they want anyway. "Doctor, I want to identify as a man." "Ok son, repeat after me: 'I identify as a man.'" "I identify as a man." "You're cured! That'll be $5,000."
The essential question is whether a licensed therapist could be disciplined for providing the kind of treatment that TwelveInchPianist's hypothetical patient is seeking.
I explained how that falls under an express exclusion from the statute.
But I don't think that our intrepid hypothesizer was unclear to begin with.
I think you're blowing off a good point that Randal has. Let's sharpen it up a bit:
It gets to where the therapist is on trial for changing a person's identity from male to female. The satisfied customer is called in as a very willing witness for the defense. You are the prosecutor and begin questioning her.
1. Are you going to ask if she ever identified as a male?
2. If she (grinning) denies ever having identified as male, would you try to prove that her statement is false?
3. If she claims that she did change, but (more grinning) it was just a total coincidence and the therapist had nothing to do with it, how would you go about undermining that statement?
It seems to me there's a conflict between the idea that a person's declaration of identity is the final say on the matter, and this law. To prosecute the case you would have to admit that it's conceivable that the declaration and the facts are at odds.
Right. And to add to that, let's look at this statement by our favorite small pianist:
If a patient self-identifies as a man, but... feels like he... should be a woman...
Huh? Is that even meaningful? If your friend came to you and said "I identify as a man but I think I'm a woman" wouldn't you just say "Well, you're doing it wrong, because if you think you're a woman that's what it means to identify as a woman. Just identify as a woman and be done."
Both sides are being disingenuous here. The therapist is being disingenuous that she's only trying to help people voluntarily change their identity. Well if it's actually voluntary, then there's nothing for her to do! People can change how they identify whenever they want with no help from her. The only reason a therapist would ever be needed to get someone to change the way they identify is if it was against their will. (Which is obviously one of the dangers with doing this kind of therapy on minors. It's much more likely to be the parent "volunteering" their kid than the kid actually volunteering.)
The state is being disingenuous that the only thing they want to prevent is attempts to change someone's identity and not, say, their behavior, attractions, or feelings of dysphoria. Lots and lots and lots of gay people identify as straight, for example. Really, it's illegal to encourage them to come out of the closet and identify as gay? That's obviously not the intent of the law, but it's what Colorado argued -- unconvincingly -- for some reason.
So if "identity" really just means what you choose to present as, this whole case is retarded all around. If "identity" means something else, then... well, what? Behaviors, attractions, feelings -- aka "orientation" -- I get, but Colorado explicitly disavowed all that.
Yet another obnoxiously contrived culture war case that has no bearing on reality and will serve only to create bad law and further erode any shred of confidence remaining in the court.
Ducksalad, you and Randal are each overlooking that TwelveInchPeckerchecker's question was whether the treatment sought to be provided by the hypothetical therapist to the hypothetical patient constitutes conversion therapy. I merely pointed out that the facts that TIP posits fit an express exclusion from the statutory definition.
That question calls for simply parsing the statutory language -- under which no grounds for professional discipline are present. It doesn't matter whether the patient is or was satisfied or dissatisfied. No one should appear as a witness, because no disciplinary proceeding should be initiated in the first place.
Oh, we get your logic. We're just pointing out that if you take it seriously, it leads to a nonsensical place.
Basing laws on nonsensical logic is usually considered a bad idea in the legal world, just wondering why you aren't concerned about it here.