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The Line Between Conduct and Speech, Between Treatment and Non-Treatment
On Tuesday, the Court heard oral argument in Chiles v. Salazar. This case considers the constitutionality of Colorado's ban on conversion therapy.
As a general rule, the First Amendment protects speech, but not conduct. It is true that some conduct, like flag-burning, has speech-like properties, so is protected by the First Amendment. It is also true that some speech incidental to conduct is not fully protected by the First Amendment. The doctrine here is complex.
During argument, several Justices asked how to draw the line between "treatment" and "non-treatment." This questions seemed to presume that treatment would not be protected by the First Amendment, while non-treatment (that is speech) was protected by the First Amendment.
Colorado argues that therapy that consists entirely of speaking is still a form of medical treatment, and is therefore considered conduct, rather than protected speech. Chiles, by contrast, argued that her therapy that consists entirely of speaking is not a form of medical treatment, and should be considered speech rather than conduct.
I'm not sure the line between treatment and non-treatment really matters. James Campbell, counsel for Chiles, explained that the line doesn't matter "because the First Amendment depends on the difference between speech and conduct, not on the difference between treatment and non-treatment." And I agree with Hashim Mooppan, the Deputy Solicitor General, that treatment and non-treatment are just "labels" that don't make a conceptual difference.
Still, I think there might be a way to draw this line based on how the care is received. First, care that consists entirely of talk, which implicates only the senses of hearing and sight, is not medical treatment. Second, care that is not limited to talk, which implicates the senses of touch, taste, or smell, would be medical treatment. The First Amendment protects the former category of care, but not the latter category of care.
So-called "aversive" therapy, which might include electro-shock therapy, is not limited to talk, but implicates the sense of touch, so would be medical treatment. I don't think any would argue that shock therapy is protected speech. Providing a patient with medicine that they have to ingest would implicate the sense of taste, so would be medical treatment. Any type of surgery that requires a scalpel would clearly be medical treatment.
The treatment at issue in Chiles does not involve any physical touching. And Chiles is not licensed to prescribe medicine or perform any sorts of medical treatment. Her all-talk care, which can only be heard, is not treatment, and is not conduct, but is speech.
I don't think this issue is conceptually difficult under the First Amendment.
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Where would a dietitian fit in?
First, care that consists entirely of talk, which implicates only the senses of hearing and sight, is not medical treatment. Second, care that is not limited to talk, which implicates the senses of touch, taste, or smell, would be medical treatment.
Louis Braille is on the phone and begs to differ.
As I wrote on the open thread, Colorado's solicitor general did a poor job of defending the statute.
Of course counsel for an appellee will ordinarily defend the reasoning of the court below, but I believe that the State should have argued in the alternative that, if the statute is a content-based regulation of speech as the plaintiff contends, it nevertheless can survive strict scrutiny review -- especially on the evidentiary record developed at the preliminary injunction stage.
Let me illustrate by means of a hypothetical. Suppose a state legislature enacts a statute declaring that it is unprofessional conduct for a licensed psychotherapist to recommend that a client who wishes to quit smoking do so by means of shooting a bullet into his temple, and any licensee who does so is subject to professional discipline. That would amount to a content-based prohibition of speech, but the state could easily show that it is supported by a compelling governmental interest in preserving the client's life, which interest could not be achieved by means less restrictive of the therapist's speech.
If SCOTUS decides that strict scrutiny applies to the challenged statute, the remedy here should be to remand to the District Court for a new evidentiary hearing on the plaintiff's application for a preliminary injunction.
the state could easily show that it is supported by a compelling governmental interest in preserving the client's life
"easily" is working very hard here. Supposing that there was a constitutional right to abortion, of equivalent standing to the 1A right to free speech, then why would the government not be able to "easily" show that it has a compelling government interest in preserving the offspring's life ?
Even more compelling indeed, since the client who is advised to shoot himself in the head is an adult with agency, pursuing the "treatment" voluntarily. Whereas the offspring is not. The government's interest in interfering with adult's decisions about themselves would seem to be a zone in which the government's interests are at their least compelling.
Returning to the case itself, I should have thought it would be rather difficult for the government to show a compelling government interest in preventing talk-only conversion "therapy."
Which, I guess, is why they went down the route they went down.
Government licensure necessarily involves the infringement of professional speech.
If we think that a government should be able to prohibit a psychiatrist from telling a patient to harm himself or others, but that a mere friend of the patient should not be so restricted (and I would presume that most would agree with this delineation), then we must acknowledge why that delineation is a valid one.
One approach is to deem shrink "talk" as "conduct" (inc. incidental speech related thereto) which falls outside 1A. Alternatively, we simply acknowledge the government's interest in making sure an unlicensed person cannot falsely present himself as a professional.
This is conceptually difficult for Blackman.
"...which interest could not be achieved by means less restrictive of the therapist's speech."
Couldn't it be achieved by the client declining to follow the advice?
Unclear on the concept of state action, TIP? The dispute in Colorado is about the circumstances under which state authorities can impose discipline upon licensed professionals.
What does that have to do with my comment? How can the state easily show that such a ban is necessary to prevent clients from shooting themselves in order to quit smoking?
I think you need to provide more justification for your claim that the law survives state scrutiny. What is exactly is the compelling interest? By what legal authority or precedent is it compelling? Your analogy does not seem on point. Nobody is going to die here. So an analogy involving life or death doesn’t seem relevant. Do you have a more on point analogy?
"Nobody is going to die here. So an analogy involving life or death doesn’t seem relevant."
Au contraire. I chose that particular hypothetical carefully.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36963209/
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2024/09/conversion-practices-lgbt.html
1. Are you claiming that a statistical link between a category of speech and depression, PTSD and suicidality is sufficient to create a compelling interest to ban that speech?
2. The article doesn't claim a link between any particular practice and the harmful effects. It doesn't say if they were from attempts to change gender ID, or sexual orientation. It doesn't say if they were from talk-only therapy, or hooking up electrodes to somebody's nuts.
3. Other issues like correlation/causation, etc.
Are you seriously disputing that suicide prevention for vulnerable adolescents is a compelling governmental interest?
I'm saying that a link between conversion therapy and suicide doesn't show that banning conversion therapy is necessary to prevent suicide.
I agree and, frankly, find this attempt to draw fine distinctions to border on the absurd. When one is speaking, he is engaging in speech, and if the government wishes to restrict that speech, it must demonstrate a compelling reason to do so, the very high hurdle of "struct scrutiny".
The ultimate outcome of this case is virtually certain, the only mystery being whether 6, 7, 8, or 9 justices will decide this statute does not pass constitutional muster. The only other question is whether the Supreme Court will apply strict scrutiny now, or waste everybody's time by remanding the case with instructions to apply strict scrutiny.
"The ultimate outcome of this case is virtually certain, the only mystery being whether 6, 7, 8, or 9 justices will decide this statute does not pass constitutional muster. The only other question is whether the Supreme Court will apply strict scrutiny now, or waste everybody's time by remanding the case with instructions to apply strict scrutiny."
F. D. Wolf, have you ever litigated the constitutionality of a state statute? The standard of review is hugely important, and that affects how the litigants structure and present their evidence.
This matter is before the Court on appeal from the issuance of a preliminary injunction, not after a full blown trial on the merits. If the District Court applied the incorrect standard of review, then remand is appropriate, with the burden remaining on the Plaintiff to prove, according to the proper standard of judicial review: (1) that she’s substantially likely to succeed on the merits, (2) that she’ll suffer irreparable injury if the court denies the injunction, (3) that her threatened injury (without the injunction) outweighs the opposing party’s under the injunction, and (4) that the injunction isn’t adverse to the public interest.
The Court may very well remand the case for the district court to apply the proper standard of strict scrutiny. (Are you conceding that is the proper standard? Because I believe it rather obviously is and am virtually certain the Court will say so).
But there may be reasons to forego remand. If the Court believes that the state cannot possibly meet that standard, then delay only prolongs the harm the plaintiff is suffering under an unconstitutional law. Say, hypothetically, a state passed a law prohibiting newspapers from criticizing the government. A newspaper sued to enjoin enforcement of the law, but a district court upheld the law, holding it passed rational-basis scrutiny (the palpably wrong standard to apply). Would an appeals court bother to remand the case for the district court to apply the correct standard? I seriously doubt it. It would almost certainly articulate the correct standard and hold it was not met.
Additionally, in this case, in her original filing and in her appeal, the plaintiff argued that the proper standard was strict scrutiny and that the state could not meet the standard. So, the state has already had the chance to rebut that argument bus has not (probably because it is fairly confident it cannot).
So. maybe the Court will remand, and maybe it won't, but ultimately, I am fairly certain the result will be the same.
One more time. Have you ever litigated the constitutionality of a state statute?
The Colorado Solicitor General defended the rationale of the Tenth Circuit but, in my opinion improvidently, failed to make the argument in the alternative that, if strict scrutiny applies, the State can show upon remand that this statute satisfies strict scrutiny.
At the preliminary injunction hearing before the District Court, the Plaintiff bore the burden of proving the preliminary injunction factors. If there is a remand for a new hearing applying strict scrutiny, the State will bear the burden of proof. If you can't recognize the difference between the two litigation postures, you are simply a damned incompetent.
Relax, princess. I see you're obviously very emotional about this topic, whereas I am not, and any further interaction would only serve to agitate you further. Perhaps some "talk therapy" would help you.
If you feel I'm "a damned incompetent", please feel free to ignore my posts in the future, and I promise to return the favor. In fact, lest I again feel tempted to tangle with your titanic intellect, I will place you on mute, allowing you to share your Solomonesque wisdom only with those worthy to receive it.
Calling people names shows how calm you are, yes.
A marker. If this is free speech that cannot be regulated, then advising someone of abortion options is also free speech. Any law prohibiting it, or allowing people to sue for so advising should also fall.
Professor Blackman,
Your post completely sidesteps the fact that the state is not prohibiting Chiles from speaking in a religious or unlicensed counselor capacity. The prohibition is only in her capacity as a licensed counselor. If all therapy that involves "talk" is speech which cannot be regulated, then how can any counseling which involves talk be regulated. Attorneys provide talk-only counseling, which is certainly regulated. Is the requirement to have a law license to provide legal services a First Amendment infringement?
There are absolutely compelling government interests to regulate professional speech, whether that be legal services, counseling, or psychiatry. This case should come down to whether the potential for self-harm, as shown by the state, can be mitigated by the prohibition of conversion therapy, and if so, whether this prohibition is the least restrictive means for mitigating that harm.
"Is the requirement to have a law license to provide legal services a First Amendment infringement?"
I believe you were attempting a reductio ad absurdum, but it fails if people look at it and say, you know, maybe it's not all that absurd.
No it's an actual example that the Fourth Circuit addressed. Not absurd. Look it up yourself! (Or see my summary below.) Would love your thoughts on the case
Capital Industries Inc. v. Stein actually addresses my legal licensure example above. The Fourth Circuit held that the statute did not impact the communicative aspects of the practice of law but rather the requirements of who may become a lawyer. The court used the exception of speech that is incidental to conduct to apply rational basis review Any speech effects of the law were “merely incidental to the primary objective of regulating the conduct of the profession.”
I am fine with that justification as well, although it essentially broadens the exception to cover all professional speech. I would prefer that strict scrutiny was applied and upheld rather than simply treated as the end of the inquiry, though.
This is ridiculous.
"Talk therapy" is treatment. Blackman clearly doesn't understand that, and I'm afraid the RW Justices don't either. There is, after all, much they don't understand, or pretend not to, in the interest of advancing MAGA.
It's disgusting.
But why should treatment/nontreatment be a primary concept, as distinct from speech/non-speech? Why should it matter to the First Amendment (as distinct from medical professionals) whether something is considered “treatment” or not any more than it matters to the First Amendment (as distinct from journalists or entertainers) whether something is considered “news” or “entertainment” or not?
Stop trying to control what people are allowed to say.
The advocate from the Trump Administration tried to control what people could say by noting that licensed therapists could be stopped from encouraging people to commit suicide.
"'Talk therapy' is treatment."
Just because it's treatment doesn't mean it's not speech.
Justice Sottomeyor raised an argument at the beginning that there is no standing, because Colorado said it does not lan to enforce the law against pure talk theray and there is no realistic prospect of enforcement.
Is there a standing argument? Or is standing simply waived on issues the majority would really like to rule on come up?
MS. STEVENSON: The change in sexual
orientation or identity is the key to --
JUSTICE GORSUCH: And that would give
her standing?
MS. STEVENSON: That would.
JUSTICE GORSUCH: Okay.
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Because you're not
disavowing that?
MS. STEVENSON: No.
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Okay. So that
settles the standing question