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Fifth Circuit Will Rehear Alien Enemies Act Case En Banc
It will review a panel decision holding that Trump could not invoke this sweeping wartime authority by claiming illegal migration and drug smuggling qualify as an "invasion."

Earlier this week the US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit decided to grant an en banc rehearing in W.M.M. v. Trump. The panel decision in that case ruled that Trump's invocation of the Alien Enemies Act of 1798 was illegal, because illegal migration and drug trafficking and other activities of the Venezuelan drug gang Tren de Aragua do not qualify as a war, "invasion," or "predatory incursion." The AEA can only be used to detain and deport immigrants when one of these extraordinary conditions, or a threat thereof, exists.The case will now be reheard by all 17 active Fifth Circuit judges.
In an amicus brief I coauthored in the case on behalf of the Brennan Center, the Cato Institute, and others, we argue that "invasion" and "predatory incursion" require a military attack, and that courts should not defer to presidential assertions that these extraordinary conditions exist. As James Madison put it in addressing this issue, "invasion is an operation of war."
Otherwise, the AEA and the Constitution's grant of extraordinary emergency powers when an "invasion" exists could be invoked by the president anytime he wants, thereby creating grave dangers to civil liberties and to the separation of powers. For example, the Constitution states that, in the event of "invasion," the federal government can suspend the writ of habeas corpus, thereby authorizing indefinite detention without due process - not only of recent immigrants, but also US citizens.
Prominent conservative Judge Andrew Oldham wrote a lengthy dissent to the panel decision, arguing that the definition of "invasion" and other terms in the AEA is left to the unreviewable discretion of the executive. I outlined some key flaws in his argument here. In a solo concurring opinion in United States v. Abbott, a previous Fifth Circuit en banc case, Judge James Ho, another well-known conservative, similarly argued the definition of "invasion" is an unreviewable "political question," left to the determination of the executive and also of state governments (under Ho's approach, they too can claim an "invasion" exists whenever there is illegal migration or drug smuggling). I criticized Judge Ho's reasoning here.
Both Ho's approach and Oldham's would give the president (and, in Ho's case, also state governments) unlimited authority to declare an "invasion" at any time, and thereby wield sweeping authority to undermine civil liberties and the separation of powers. The federal government could use this power to detain and deport even legal immigrants, and to suspend the writ of habeas corpus (including for US citizens). Under the Constitution, in the event of "invasion" state governments can "engage in war" even without congressional authorization. I wrote about the dangers of that in greater detail here, as well as in the amicus brief.
Such vast unilateral authority goes against the text and original meaning of both the Constitution and the Alien Enemies Act. British violations of the writ of habeas corpus were one of the main grievances that led to the American Revolution, and the Founding Fathers did not intend to give the president the power to replicate those abuses anytime he might want.
I will have more to say about these issues as the AEA litigation continues in this case and in other cases currently before various federal courts. We will likely file an updated version of our amicus brief before the en banc Fifth Circuit.
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Yawn! Wake me up when the US Supreme Court rules on this.
Prudent policy.
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Good test of whether someone who claims to be an originalist is merely a cultist in disguise
Something fun about our age:
Without looking at other posts from you, I genuinely have absolutely zero idea which side you're calling culty.
It's SRG2. MAGA is the cult.
That aside :
1. I am delighted to see that SRG2 recognizes that "originalism" is not merely a constitutional interpretive doctrine, but a general textualist doctrine equally applicable to statute law.
2. But I'm not sure what piece of the question, in SRG2's opinion, hangs on an originalist interpretation rather than a simple textualist one. At first glance there doesn't seem to be anything in the majority opinion which is based on the fine distinction between the 1798 meaning of "invasion" or "predatory incursion" and the 2025 meaning of those words. Instead the majority seems to approach the question largely on the basis of their view of the context.
They do appeal to Johnson's and Webster's more or less contemporary dictionaries but those do not really advance the majority's argument, since "invasion" is not defined there in any specifically military sense. Indeed Webster slightly undermines the majority's take by saying that "invasion" means :
A hostile entrance into the possessions of another; particularly , the entrance of a hostile army into a country for the purpose of conquest or plunder, or the attack of a military force. An attack on the rights of another; infringement or violation.
"Particularly" indicates that there are other cases that fall outside the particular military cases described.
The majority relies on the argument that there is a military context overall. And maybe they're right. But this has nothing to do with a particular 1798 flavor to "invasion." The same argument could be run just as well with a 2025 dictionary.
So it's not at all clear why SRG2 thinks this has anything to do with originalism.
The constitution is full of restrictions on the domestic use of military force by the government.
"Unless the President says so" seems like an unconstitutional loophole.
I think this is a good place to post a bit of the most excellent dissent from Judge Oldham:
For 227 years, every President of every political party has enjoyed the same broad powers to repel threats to our Nation under the Alien Enemies Act (“AEA”). And from the dawn of our Nation until President Trump took office a second time, courts have never second-guessed the President’s invocation of that Act. Not once. The reason is simple: Determining whether the AEA’s preconditions are satisfied—whether there is a declared war, or “any invasion or predatory incursion” being “perpetrated, attempted, or threatened,” 50 U.S.C. § 21—depends upon “matters of political judgment for which judges have neither technical competence nor official responsibility.” Ludecke v. Watkins, 335 U.S. 160, 170 (1948). Time and time and time again, the Supreme Court has instructed that the President’s declaration of an invasion, insurrection, or incursion is conclusive. Final. And completely beyond the second-guessing powers of unelected federal judges. That rule does not only apply to Presidents. It also applies to Governors. In one famous case from the 1930s, for example, the Governor of Texas declared an “insurrection” because some oil barons in East Texas were pumping too much crude. Sterling v. Constantin, 287 U.S. 378, 387 (1932). It seems patently absurd to call profit-maximizing business practices an “insurrection.” But that’s irrelevant. The Supreme Court unanimously held: “By virtue of his duty to ‘cause the laws to be faithfully executed,’ the executive is appropriately vested with the discretion to determine whether an exigency requiring military aid for that purpose has arisen. His decision to that effect is conclusive.” Id. at 399 (emphasis added).
For President Trump, however, the rules are different. Today the majority holds that President Trump is just an ordinary civil litigant. His declaration of a predatory incursion is not conclusive. Far from it. Rather, President Trump must plead sufficient facts—as if he were some run-of-the-mill plaintiff in a breach-of-contract case—to convince a federal judge that he is entitled to relief.
That contravenes over 200 years of legal precedent. And it transmogrifies the least-dangerous branch into robed crusaders who get to playact as multitudinous Commanders in Chief
Ahh yes. There it is. The decision relied upon by the dissent is not very compelling for the idea that some executive proclamations cannot ever be second guessed. There is no special circumstance in which a court cannot review a statute. The alien enemies act is a statute; the court's job is to interpret statutes and say what the law is. If a statute is set in the conditional; i.e, if X happens, then Y is authorized, it is most certainly the Court's job to decide if X condition has been met.
A system of justice in which an executive political officer can just make shit up in defiance of all reality and the procedural rules or deference accorded them makes their proclamation immune from all judicial review is not a system of justice at all. It's a joke.
The executive has an obligation to faithfully execute laws; not abuse them for their own amusement or convenience. That is acting in bad faith. When the executive abuses their authority, there are checks on their actions and one of them is the Courts.
This whole thought pattern is fairly stupid to me as it belittles both the judiciary and the legislature - when words don't have meaning and checks and balances are powerless to prevent any meaningful restraint on an executive who has no problem lying for their own ends. F that. That type of quisling obedience to the executive makes no sense in our system of govt and is in fact quite dangerous.
WCA - "There is no special circumstance in which a Court cannot review a statute." Balderdash. There is explicit authority in the Constitutional for Congress to cabin reviewability of a given statute by the Supreme Court, and all inferior courts Congress may establish.
"In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make."
See also the Judiciary Act of 1789, and Barrett's recent schooling of out-of-depth KBJ.
Where exactly in that text do you see anything about inferior courts?
William of Brooklyn: Even if what you write is true (and see David's point above for a contrary view)... Congress in the AEA statute would have to strip court's of their review, correct?
So where in the Alien Enemies Act statute is the language stripping courts of their ability to review? If it's there I'd like to read it. If its not, then your comment is pointless as concerns the AEA and this entire discussion of whether this President's invocation of the act is legal/constitutional.
Mr Nieporent is just warming up for his Pedant of the Year audition again. The relevant constitutional text, as he well knows, is in Article 1 :
"The Congress shall have Power....... To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court"
"constitute" as a matter of text includes everything from subject matter jurisdiction, geographical jurisdiction, rules of evidence, rules of procedure, rules of interpretation, hierarchy and so on, not excluding the design of the that the judge must wear in court.
The Ur-exercise of this power was the Judiciary Act of 1789, which William of Brooklyn mentioned.
PS I do like the name "William of Brooklyn" - sounds like something out of Robin Hood.
Not sure why you’re so confused. Maybe it’s the wind ( or is that flatulence?). This excerpt is really quite clear and easy to understand. There are actually limits to judicial power. A panel of judges cannot act as “multitudinous Commanders in Chief.” Perhaps you missed this part:
Determining whether the AEA’s preconditions are satisfied—whether there is a declared war, or “any invasion or predatory incursion” being “perpetrated, attempted, or threatened,” 50 U.S.C. § 21—depends upon “matters of political judgment for which judges have neither technical competence nor official responsibility.” Ludecke v. Watkins, 335 U.S. 160, 170 (1948).
This is what's known as a flat out lie. The Court did not say anything of the kind. What the Court actually held was entirely different:
The Rivabot simply changed the words before the quoted language. At no point did the court even remotely suggest that whether the preconditions were satisfied was a political question. Indeed, it said exactly the opposite:
Unlike Trump's fake invocation of the AEA, absolutely nobody disputed the fact that the preconditions had been satisfied; war had been officially declared by Congress, after all. The contention by Ludecke was that the courts should rule that because active combat had ceased, the war was over and therefore the AEA could not continue to be in place. SCOTUS's response was that since no peace treaty had been signed, it wasn't up to SCOTUS to decide whether a state of war still existed.
Not actually possible to engage in a reasonable discussion with an infantile troll having yet another tantrum. When you’re ready to stop acting like an asshole, let me know.
That's an incredibly stupid and disingenuous dissent, which makes it totally unsurprising that it comes from Oldham.
Yes, indeed, it is. The reason is that the law was almost never invoked in those 227 years — so there was very little opportunity for the courts to do so — and on the handful of occasions when it was invoked, it was invoked in good faith so there was no basis for such second-guessing.
Trump is the first thug masquerading as a president to invoke it in a situation where every single person on the planet knows it doesn't apply.
The president is just an ordinary civil litigant. Like any other litigant, he bears the burden of convincing a court that he is entitled to relief.
President Trump is just an ordinary civil litigant? The Commander in Chief, the Chief Executive vested with all executive power and head of a coordinate branch of government is just an ordinary civil litigant? Such idiocy refutes itself. No need for further elaboration.
Well that’s some divine right of kings nonsense.
Wherever you are from they sure didn’t teach fundamental American Republican values.
More of the same stupidity. This time with an infantile “no kings” twist. To note that President Trump is not an ordinary civil litigant in this litigation is NOT equivalent, logically or legally, with claiming the president is a king. Outside of the wet dreams of the TDS deranged, of course. Is this really the best you’ve got? This is why you clowns always lose eventually, both in your lawfare and politics. Please never change.
"The president is just an ordinary civil litigant. "
That would news to the Supreme Court and every inferior court.
Thank you for posting.
Your bleedin' heart will tell on you...
""invasion is an operation of war.""
But, Madison did not JUST say that. He went on to say,
"To protect against invasion is an exercise of the power of war."
So I read him as saying, not that no act or acts can be an invasion absent a war, but instead that the occurrence of an invasion means you ARE at war.
War does not define "invasion", IOW, but instead, invasion defines "war".
"Invasion" is a coordinated, deliberate act. Otherwise, refugees fleeing a natural disaster in their home country to a next door country would count as an "invasion."
A lot of Trump supporters just nodded their heads and asked "Yes, and?"
Of course it wasnt an invasion - Biden did everything except extend a formal invitation
Nope, the invasion started in April 2020 which is when fentanyl deaths spiked. Trump inexplicably stopped the illegals coming here to work but allowed the drugs to come through?!? Very odd.
So the President cannot protect us against mere routs? The incursion must be sufficiently organized?
The President has other ways of protecting us against "mere routs."
Suspending habeas, aborting due process, deporting innocent people to foreign prisons, and deploying the military domestically... that isn't the appropriate (or legal) federal response to every little thing that happens.
1) Suspending habeas isn't an Executive branch power in the first place, wake me when Trump attempts it.
2) Aborting due process would be bad, but isn't the argument over how much process is due?
3) Deporting innocent people to foreign prisons IS bad, I think Trump should stop that, and be content with deporting illegal aliens to foreign (To us, not them!) countries.
4) Deploying the military domestically when local authorities decide not to defend federal employees when they're subject to organized attack seems reasonable. Maybe the local authorities could deprive him of an excuse by putting the people who do this in jail?
I agree but that doesn't address the question. When a law says that a President can do something in an "invasion" is it good policy to notice that this thing is not technically, according to Websters, so much an invasion as a unorganized stampede?
Or are those details irrelevant when it comes to upholding a reasonable reading of the law?
The precise details become important when you support the predatory incursion / organized or unorganized stampede.
A tangentially related, but useful question: Do lawyers agree on the definition of a, "political question?" My impression is that is left vague, and it gets custom-tailored anew almost every time someone wants to invoke the notion of the political question.
My suggestion: A political question which a court may not consider is any question the jointly sovereign people properly reserve for their own decision, and thus put beyond reach of judicial authority.
Two examples to illustrate:
1. The question which of multiple candidates won an election. No court should have power to settle that by decree. The courts should have power to order that elections be conducted in such a way that the people themselves are maximally bolstered in their own ability to decide the outcomes by transparent voting and counting procedures. That should be the limit of judicial power on election outcomes.
2. The question whether a government officer sworn to allegiance to the Constitution has performed faithfully to the oath. It is the people themselves who imposed the oath. They need, but do not currently have, a prescribed procedure to say whether their oath requirements have been satisfied. The right procedure ought to settle case-by-case any questions which arise, and turn on use of a reliable process to answer whether the people are satisfied that the oath was faithfully performed. That seems to me a proper subject for a constitutional amendment. The debates that advocacy and passage would entail might prove unusually civically informative.
There's a decent amount of question-begging here, though. E.g. on 1, the courts can order that elections be conducted in such a way that the people themselves are maximally bolstered in their own ability to decide the outcomes by transparent voting and counting procedures, but once they do that, and the election is conducted, and Candidate A got 1,000 votes and Candidate B got 900 votes, if Candidate B declares himself the winner and gets the relevant election officials to back him up, are the courts not allowed to step in (on petition from Candidate A, of course)? You could certainly argue that ensuring the candidate who got the most votes is declared the winner is part of "conducting" the election, but this goes to the core of the argument about what counts as "political."
Glaucomatose — Perhaps a remedy responsive to your critique could be found under No. 2 above, the part about oath breaking.
Otherwise, yes, there is an argument that courts ought to step beyond their proper authority if they aim to do right, but not if they aim to do wrong.
Presumably you did see that I was attempting to address, "the core of the argument about what counts as 'political.' "
SL - There is a mechanism for addressing oath-breaking. At the presidential and judicial level it's called impeachment. At the Congressional level, they can expel or censure a member. And then there is voting in two, four, or six years time. But the courts play no role whatsoever in addressing the above characters. That is, thank God, not in their remit. But some courts do have a role through the UCMJ to cashier officers and enlisted service members for various offenses.
You have seen a phrase that you think supports your philosophy, and so you seize on it despite having no clue what it means and insist that it ought to mean exactly the opposite of what it means. A political question has nothing to do with your weird ideas about sovereignty; it is a matter which is in effect a policy question textually committed to the other branches. Who actually won an election is a straightforward question of fact.
To illustrate the difference: "Has Venezuela invaded the U.S.?" is a factual question. "If Venezuela invades the U.S., should the AEA be invoked against its U.S.-resident citizens?" is a political question.
skipping the part of predatory incursion ? Why?
Oh JFC. I didn't "skip" anything. I was discussing a different issue and using shorthand. I could have said
"Has Venezuela invaded the U.S. or has Venezuela engaged in a predatory incursion?" is a factual question. "If Venezuela invades the U.S. or engages in a predatory incursion, should the AEA be invoked against its U.S.-resident citizens?" is a political question.
But that would have been far wordier and done nothing to change the distinction I was trying to convey to Stephen.
You continue to focus on the wrong category of the two -
in other words you skipped it -
Why ?
My god, you are completely illiterate. I was not focusing on either category in the comment to which you were responding. I was making an entirely different point about a legal issue.
Exposing your continued diversion away from the applicable portion of the statute upsets DN. Yes you make a point on a different point that is not applicable - even after your diversion gets exposed.
A point which is mostly irrelevant to the question at hand, about Trump's declaration. It doesn't meet the "classical" definition of an invasion, but it might qualify as a predatory incursion.
Which does not make others objecting to your argument here "illiterate". You are responding about something which has nothing to do with their point, pretending your legal point is relevant. If it is, you haven't explained it yet.
Of course the true underlying issue which needs adjudication is who gets to arbitrate any of that. The president unquestionably, as a political question or separation of powers thing. Or is there a statutory/precedential definition which the judiciary can independently apply to Trump's action here. I don't know, but Trump's critics have mostly responded with Orange Man Bad justifications, taking his actions out of context with other prior unilateral presidential declarations and actions.
The issue I keep returning to with all this Resistance™ lawfare is that it's not really possible to cabin in Trump's actions while leaving in place the years of accumulated imperial presidential authority. I would welcome unwinding much of that. What I can't accept it leaving it intact while developing special reasons why only Trump is not allowed to yield such authority. This should be a teachable moment, something many of us have been warning the left about for years. Yet many are trying to have it both ways.
Um, I wasn't responding to anyone except Stephen Lathrop, and was explaining that he was misunderstanding the political question doctrine.
How exactly does this crimped interpretation of invasion square with Pancho Villa? It's universally recognized as an invasion, but he wasn't the Mexican government; quite the opposite, he was explicitly in rebellion against the Mexican government at the time. And it was about 500 guys, far fewer than the number invading us now. The US Army responded by shooting them, chasing them, and they kept shooting until they ran out of ammunition. As botched as the subsequent punitive expedition was, the original response was outstanding. And they did it all without going to court for permission to resist the invasion. Why can't we do that now?
Text - the pancho villa is a good comparison -
One notable difference - The Mexican government didnt participate in facilitation of pancho villa's invasion. Several governments along the central american corridor did assist in various forms of facilitation during the last several years.
the pancho villa is a good comparison
It's a terrible comparison. Villa led an armed, somewhat organized, group into the US with the explicit purpose of stealing US military supplies. His raid resulted in the death of 18 Americans, including soldiers and civilians.
Whether that constituted an "invasion"or not, it bears no resemblance to illegal immigration.
The migrant 'caravans' at first glance seem to be somewhat organized. And they do have the explicit purpose of violating US immigration law by unauthorized entry into the US.
Bernie - explain the difference - Tren de Aragua v panco villa
one criminal gang vs another criminal gang,
One on horses with guns
one in cars with guns
That's willful ignorance by you. Mobs of people don't migrate thousands of miles uncoordinated. That doesn't pass the smell test. Coyotes and human smugglers are real things. Whether any of that meets a minimum threshold, and more importantly whether Venezuela itself can be tied to that, is a separate question. But a historical appeal to Pancho Villa is relevant, even if it does not mean Trump prevails.
Whether any of that meets a minimum threshold, and more importantly whether Venezuela itself can be tied to that, is a separate question.
You want to reformulate the question so it's not about group-wide organization, but rather some arbitrary threshold, so long as there's someone who had a plan at some point about some subset of the group.
That's a bad semantic game. It's not what bernard meant by organized, and your version is mushy to the point of being useless as a factual threshold.
No, but individuals migrate thousands of miles uncoordinated.
There was no government in revolutionary Mexico when Pancho Villa attacked Columbus, New Mexico in 1916. Victoriano Huerta resigned the presidency in July 1914, and a new government under Venustiano Carranza was not constituted until 1917.
I came here to mention this exactly.
Ilya never listens to any contrary opinion, but how would he classify this invasion?
Pancho Villa's troops were poor, disenfranchised, oppressed people who were just trying to vote with their feet and migrate to a land with more opportunity, of course.
What is the point of trolling like this? Are you that desperate to hear the sound of your own voice that you'd make a stupid statement that does not advance the discussion in any way?
Probably to mock people like you.
No one is coming anywhere near asserting your strawman, though.
So you're just doing a verbal wanking.
It is not. Now, a predatory incursion, sure; it involved an organized armed force intended to violate U.S. sovereignty. But of course the AEA requires that the predatory incursion/invasion be done by a foreign government, so Pancho Villa's attack would not qualify for invoking the AEA.
Not sure what your question has to do with the topic of this discussion, which is the invocation of the AEA, not "resisting an invasion."
"Both Ho's approach and Oldham's would give the president (and, in Ho's case, also state governments) unlimited authority to declare an "invasion" at any time, and thereby wield sweeping authority to undermine civil liberties and the separation of powers."
I don't see how it undermines seperation of powers, after all the Alien Enemies Act was an act of Congress.
Feel free to argue that it was unwise, but as Justice Jackson said in Youngstown:
"When the President acts pursuant to an express or implied authorization of Congress, his authority is at its maximum, for it includes all that he possesses in his own right plus all that Congress can delegate. In these circumstances and in these only, may he be said . . . to personify the federal sovereignty. If his act is held unconstitutional under thise circumstancies it usually means that the Federal Government as an undivided whole lacks power."
The authorization in the Alien Enemies Act applied only during an invasion. For the President to say “An invasion is whatever I say it is” is to override the limit that Congress used to define the scope of the President’s delegated power.
Or Predatory Incursion, which would encompass a pirate raid or maybe hundreds of gang members attempting to set up an extensive criminal enterprise.
The statute "...or any invasion or predatory incursion shall be perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States, by any foreign nation or government,...."
There really isnt a dispute that it is a predatory incursion. The only dispute is to what extent it is by a foreign nation or government. While, there are not "official actions " of any governments or foreign nations, several of central american countries were either complacent or assisted in the facilitation of the predatory incursion. The only question is whether that facilitation rose to the level intended in the statute.
Not quite sure I agree with you. The majority (which found against Trump on the question of "invasion" and "predatory incursion") made a fine distinction between those questions and the question of whether the Venezuelan government was behind TdA's activities. And concluded that it could review the former, but not the latter :
For example, Petitioners here have challenged the President’s finding that the Maduro regime in Venezuela is directing the actions of TdA in this country. We interpret the Ludecke Court to have made conclusive the President’s “belief” that certain categories of aliens are enemies and engaged in hostile actions. Id. at 170. Thus, even though Petitioners insist there is no basis to find the Maduro regime is directing TdA’s action in the United States, it is not for a
court to review a President’s findings about the facts when he is employing the AEA.
They then go on to say that because "invasion" and "predatory incursion" require the interpretation of stautory text, they do have the authority to review the President's application of the facts that he perceives, to the statutory words "invasion" and "predatory incursion." This is not the case for the purely factual question of whether the Venezuelan government stands behind TdA, which is unreviewable.
This is why I'm not sure I like the panel's opinion any more than I like the dissent. As long as the President says the magic words, his invocation of the AEA is unreviewable. He just didn't say the right magic words.
The only way that really helps is if the magic words are so ridiculous that the President loses confidence by saying them. That seems... like wishful thinking to me.
Trump just needs to revise the EO to assert some more obviously false facts which actually fit the definition of "predatory incursion" and voila, he gets his war powers.
There is, in fact, a massive dispute over whether it is a predatory incursion. A predatory incursion is a military action; drug dealing is just ordinary criminal activity.
I agree with Joe on this one, although I would add the word 'serious' in front of 'dispute.'
What not a predatory incursion because there were only 10-12million, not 15 million?
What not a predatory incursion because the biden administration effectively invited the incursion albeit without a formal invite?
Hint - its only a dispute by those who ignore reality and repeat leftist talking points
What are you talking about? Even Trump hasn't been dumbass enough to claim that illegal immigration was an invasion/incursion for purposes of the AEA. He claims that TdA's activities are. That's a few hundred people, not 10 million, 12 million, or 15 million.
But, no, it doesn't matter how many people come; it's their intentions, not their numbers, that determine whether they constitute an invasion/predatory incursion.
Finally, I assume you're now knowingly misusing "leftist" because you're a loser troll rather than because you still don't understand what the word means.
"A predatory incursion is a military action; drug dealing is just ordinary criminal activity."
Such a narrow definition created by a leftist which is not supported by the statute.
Sorry, when I said "loser troll" I meant "retard loser troll."
On what basis do you define a "predatory incursion" as a military action. I take issue with this because I think drug cartels are certainly capable of engaging in one. The line between criminal activity and paramilitary is often blurry. depending on the capabilities of the belligerent bad actors.
Noscitur a sociis.
No. Criminals and invaders/incursionists are fundamentally different concepts. Criminals are not a challenge to the sovereignty of the country in which they're committing crimes.
DN - spilling a lot of ink trying to hide the predatory incursion by a criminal gangs.
I understand what you're saying, but do not believe every "predatory invasion" is a challenge to the sovereignty of the country in which they are committing crimes. For one thing, it is not necessarily the case that a "predatory invasion" is a "crime," other than in the non-law sense of international relations. Ukraine's "predatory invasion" of the Kursk region is a perfect example of an act which, while warlike, was not in anyone's imagination a challenge to Russian sovereignty. On the other hand, when criminal gangs take over the mechanisms of a State, creating a narco-State, that is arguably a challenge, or complete subordination of that State's sovereignty. At end, I think that foreign armed gangs trying to enter the country illegally, whether with contraband or no, are liable to the full force of arms of that State, whether that is America or any other State.
I disagree. To be sure, it was presumably intended to be temporary rather than permanent, but that's what distinguishes invasion from incursion. For the duration of Ukraine's presence in Kursk, it did intend to displace the Russian government there.
Glaucomatose --
The Constitution expressly gives States the power to conduct war if invaded: No State shall, without the Consent of Congress...engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.. Is it your view that the framers thought the Governor of a State should present his case before a federal judge before any action is taken? And that the view of said judge would be dispositive?
Of course not. Nothing in that suggests that the governor needs to ask before responding to an invasion. The issue is whether, if someone challenges the governor's acts as unconstitutionally exceeding his authority, a judge can rule that they did.
Is taking the case en banc a signal that they want to overturn the panel decision? Since the panel decided against the President, does this rehearing mean they want to reconsider, or is there an advantage to getting a full court decision on the record?
This is something well outside my own field, so it's an honest question - what does this signal, if anything?
It could mean they are going to reverse it, or narrow or expand the reasoning, but they don't usually go en banc just because.
Prof Josh wrote a post about this. He speculated that the government had petitioned for en banc because they were concerned that SCOTUS might not take an appeal, because there was no circuit split. Thus better to go for en banc to try to get the decision reversed, so that SCOTUS inertia then works in the government's favor.
Obviously they have succeeded at step one, which is to get the decision en banced. Maybe that means that there's a majority unhappy with the panel decision. Or maybe it's just deference to the federal government - granting en banc when the Feds ask.
Prof Josh though the en banc 5th has a tendency to splinter off into incoherent decisions, with no clear majority opinion. So the government may very well not get a clear majority opinion, but maybe it'll just get a win, which SCOTUS might then decline to review until another Appeal Court arrives at the opposite decision. But again, maybe ICE has got a bit smarter about detaining people in the right judicial district, and keeping them out of Deep Blue courts.
It's not a case of statutory construction. The law is clear on its face. There must be an enemy invasion or incursion by a foreign government. Nothing to interpret there. The question is who decides. Should an unelected, life time appointed judge decide, or 9 of them, subject only to impeachment, or should the chief executive decide, subject to impeachment and the will of the electorate every four years. Arguably, the power of the president as commander in chief makes the law irrelevant unless you want to take the position that only after Congress declares war can the President use those powers (and that ship sailed a long time ago).
Settled in Marbury vs. Madison. It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.
(To say that the president can unilaterally and unreviewably decide whether something is an invasion is to say that the president can decide what the law is.)
Marbury v Madison was just a judge (and his colleagues) giving an opinion.
But DN... this is weirder. The panel opinion agreed with you that the courts get to say what the law is. But they also said that in this case, the President alone gets to say what the facts are. He just made up the wrong facts in his proclamation. If he had made up some facts that actually fit the definition of "predatory incursion," the court would've gone along with it.
That does seem to be what the case law suggests. Do you think that'll stand?
I agree with your interpretation of the decision, and I agree with Prof. Somin's criticism of that portion of the decision. According to several judges to have considered this question so far, the president can announce, "I find that in retaliation for our noble attempt to liberate Greenland, Denmark has sent thousands of troops all throughout the U.S., attacking our military bases; therefore, I am invoking the AEA to immediately deport all Danish nationals in the U.S.," and a court cannot say, "WTF are you talking about? There are no Danish troops here." And this goes back to the whole "presumption of regularity" debate.
I understand that that's Oldham's position - if the president says the moon is made out of green cheese, the court must simply accept that as fact.
How widespread is this inane notion among the judiciary?
Isn't the whole point of a trial, criminal or othewise, that certain facts be proven and then apply the law to the facts found, instead of just accepting the government's assertions as fact?
In Duncan v. Kohanamoku, 327 U.S. 304 (1946), the U.S. Supreme Court comstrued the word “invasion” in the Hawaii Organic Act. It determined that, whie the attack on Pearl Harbor was definitely an invasion and Hawaii doubtless remained in a state of invasion for some time after that, by the time of Khanamoku’s arrest in 1944, the previous state of invasion had definitely ended.
My question to supporters of Judge Oldham’s opinion is this. The Supreme Court had no problem construing the meaning of the word “invasion” when it appeared in a congressional statute in Duncan. What about the Alien Enemies Act is so different from the statute involved in Duncan as not only to make the way the Court construed the term “invasion “ irrelevant, but so as to make the very fact that the Court construed the term rather than declaring it a nonjusticiable political term irrelevant?
You could have people arguing that Pearl Harbor was an aerial attack and that the term "invasion" requires boots on the ground.
But rather than arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, it should be realized that these are political questions best decided by the elected branches who are then free to respond to emergencies as they arise.
The fact that so many people disagree with Trump is not a reason to upset this balance. It is a reason to work harder next time to elect your preferred candidate.
Once again, we have people acting as if the president is a king. He is not. Not even a temporary one for 4 years. He is not entitled to do whatever he wants, regardless of what the law says, subject only to impeachment, until the next election.
Nor was Biden entitle to invite all the illegal aliens in, albeit the biden administration did it informally, they still invited the migration.
Sorry, people are not acting as if the president is a king about this issue. They are responding to the reality that the modern administrative state has given the president great discretion and leeway and making stuff up and treating it as law. If you think that allows the president to act like a king, I suggest you start there.
You don't understand the administrative state. In fact, you seem to have made up what it is so you can rationalize Trump acting like a king.
It's a common conservative move - 'us doing this bad thing is fine because the Dems I made up are worse!'
And often, as is the case here, the Dems you made up aren't even doing anything like what you're rationalizing. Like how the administrative state you don't like isn't empowering the President, yet somehow you pretend like Trump Is the State.
And you don't even like him!
It's king shit all the way down for some outcome-orienteds.
In addition, the case you cited contains no such language. Congress had provided that "martial law" be in force in Hawaii when certain conditions were met. The Court disposed of it on a statutory argument holding that "martial law" was a vague term and, without more, was not intended to displace civilian courts.
There is no talk of whether an invasion was present in 1941, 1944, or any other time, nor did the Court opine that an invasion was or was not present.
I agree with wva; readery is misinterpreting that case. The issue in Kohanamoku was what a declaration of martial law empowered the military to do (specifically, whether it allowed the military to displace civilian courts for non-military matters); it was not whether said state of martial law was justified by an invasion.
Yes, the courts can say what the law is. But its an old cliche (in dicta by the way-and just what does the delivery of a justice of the peace commission have to do with presidential powers?) And Congress can declare, or enact what the law is. And presidents can execute both the laws and constitutional powers. All settled. Can the President instruct what laws the Congress should pass? (Not politically, but an actual order). Can Congress pass a law deciding judicial cases (not dealing with jurisdiction, but actually deciding the case. Why is it so foreign that certain things are left to the executive branch.
I'm having trouble understanding why this issue has two sides in the first place. Arguing in favor of "invasion", Trump's side is offering a version of "When I use a word...it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."** Hmm... I think tonight I will choose the word Trumpian to mean Procrustean.
Because that's all they've got, if you think about it. They must torture the language of the law to make it fit the decision they require. They can't make any credible arguments based on actual law, history, or precedent, so they're stuck with semantics. And the chances are good, I'd say, that they will find some other mechanism to get what they want (think Contras). Failing everything else, they will probably fall back the snarky principle that it's better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. How is that a legitimate view of a very serious question that has actually been answered over our 250 years as a Constitutional republic?
**Apology to Lewis Carroll for my cherry-picking his text.
Apparently that's all this judge had too - because the court is going to review the decision. If the evidence had been clear, if the law was clear, then there'd be no need to go back to review it.
So it looks like Trump has a bit more than 'a word means what I want it to mean'.
The United States was at war in 1798 when the law was passed. The Quasi War with France was raging. Ilya's claim that only a declared war qualifies is not based on the facts in evidence, and in fact is contradicted by the facts in evidence.
The elected branches of government determine if the nation is at war not unelected, unaccountable judges.
Ilya's claim that only a declared war qualifies
Ilya claimed no such thing, Mr. and/or Ms. Obvious Strawman.
The existence of limits to the President's powers is a political question best left to the president or a majority of the House and 1/3 of the Senate.
No, it's a legal question.
That would imply that some other branch of government, the courts for example, have a say in how the government is run. Article II clearly gives all governmental power to the president unless half the House and 2/3 of the Senate say otherwise. That's how we know we're a democracy, because every four years we get a chance to decide who's going to have total power for the next four years.
every four years we get a chance to decide who's going to have total power for the next four years.
No, that's not how this works, and everybody reading this knows that you would be advocating the exact opposite if it wasn't your guy exercising "total power".
Er, reading that, and re-reading the comment to which I had responded, I think Botaglove is Poe's Lawing.
Why would I possibly object to a system providing all governmental power to one person for four years, followed by another election in four years in which how the election is run and the information environment would be heavily influenced by that one person? That's how the Founding Parents wanted it, right?
David, Poe? Wasn't he a poet?
if the decision is going to be reviewed en banc, it would seem that the law is not as cut-and-dried as Somin has been asserting. Or else the decision would be left to stand.
Appeal to authority is a fallacy.
Make a real argument.
"Otherwise, the AEA and the Constitution's grant of extraordinary emergency powers when an 'invasion' exists could be invoked by the president anytime he wants, thereby creating grave dangers to civil liberties and to the separation of powers."
Sounds like 2020. Governors invoked emergency powers to rule by decree. No church for you!
The emergency act in Massachusetts was enacted during the Korean War. It was meant to keep some bit of government functioning after Soviet nukes took out Boston. By the 2010s it was invoked if snow fell in the wintertime.
It is possible that governors acted unwisely or unlawfully or that state legislatures delegated too much power or discretion to state governors, but said governors' powers are governed (no pun intended) by state constitutions, not the U.S. constitution, so are irrelevant here.