The Volokh Conspiracy
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My Remarks at the Harvard Vigil
On Charlie Kirk, violence, and speech.
There's been some press coverage—The Harvard Crimson, Boston Globe—of the Charlie Kirk vigil last night at Harvard, where I spoke alongside several students as well as my colleagues Randy Kennedy and Adrian Vermeule. I thought I'd recount my remarks here to give them full context, as well as to give credit where credit's due. Below is the prepared text, adjusted to match its delivery, as best I can remember it:
Thank you.
I want to confess that I was a little apprehensive in accepting your invitation to speak.
First, I was worried that it would be presumptuous, as I feel that I know so much less of Charlie Kirk's life and work than so many of you do. I deeply appreciate the students who have spoken today.
Second, I was apprehensive that in a place like Harvard, mourning Charlie Kirk would make one a target of opprobrium or disgust. There are some who believe those deeply moved by Kirk's murder, the widowing of his wife, and the fatherlessness of his children, shouldn't be so moved unless they're willing to take as their own every statement Kirk made and every position Kirk held. Charlie Kirk helped to put on the table on college campuses a wide range of conservative views; that's why so many people are here, who don't all agree about everything. I feel that no one here should feel it their burden to defend everything that other people might believe in order to mourn his unjust death. In that, I'd agree with Jonathan Adler, who noted that one can be a martyr without having to be a saint.
Third, I was apprehensive that it could make one a more literal target, that there could be some wacko out there. As to that, Kirk's example is one of very real courage—not just physical courage, knowing the sort of threats he faced, but intellectual courage, the kind that's necessary to stand under a sign that reads "prove me wrong" and take the very real risk that the next person to step up to the microphone might do just that.
Kirk was, certainly, a gifted communicator. And some think that it's by the gifts of such communicators that a political or intellectual movement thrives or fails. That may be true—in the short run. But in the long run, what makes more difference is the courage to pursue the truth, the courage that leads you to seek out the chance to be proven wrong.
Scott Alexander once wrote that a short-term "focus on transmission" may be
part of the problem. Everyone … knows that they are right. The only remaining problem is how to convince others. Go on Facebook and you will find a million people with a million different opinions, each confident in her own judgment, each zealously devoted to informing everyone else.
Instead, he writes,
… Debate is difficult and annoying. It doesn't scale. It only works on the subset of people who are willing to talk to you in good faith and smart enough to understand the issues involved. And even then, it only works glacially slowly, and you win only partial victories. What's the point?
Logical debate has one advantage over narrative, rhetoric, and violence: it's an asymmetric weapon. That is, it's a weapon which is stronger in the hands of the good guys than in the hands of the bad guys. In ideal conditions (which may or may not ever happen in real life) … the good guys will be able to present stronger evidence, cite more experts, and invoke more compelling moral principles. The whole point of logic is that, when done right, it can only prove things that are true.
Violence, by contrast,
is a symmetric weapon; the bad guys' punches hit just as hard as the good guys' do. … [H]opefully the good guys will be more popular than the bad guys, and so able to gather more soldiers. But … the good guys will only be more popular … insofar as their ideas have previously spread through some means other than violence. …
Unless you use asymmetric weapons, the best you can hope for is to win by coincidence…. Overall you should average out to a 50% success rate. When you win, it'll be because you got lucky.
Remember, he writes,
You are not completely immune to facts and logic. But you have been wrong about things before. You may be a bit smarter than the people on the other side. You may even be a lot smarter. But fundamentally their problems are your problems, and the same kind of logic that convinced you can convince them. It's just going to be a long slog. You didn't develop your opinions after a five-minute shouting match. You developed them after years of education and acculturation and engaging with hundreds of books and hundreds of people. Why should they be any different? …
All of this is too slow and uncertain for a world that needs more wisdom now. It would be nice to force the matter, to pelt people with speeches and documentaries until they come around. This will work in the short term. In the long term, it will leave you back where you started.
If you want people to be right more often than chance, you have to teach them ways to distinguish truth from falsehood. If this is in the face of enemy action, you will have to teach them so well that they cannot be fooled. You will have to do it person by person until the signal is strong and clear. You will have to raise the sanity waterline. There is no shortcut.
I hope that Kirk's example will help remind us of this—of the need for the courage to pursue the truth, person by person—and that, zichrono livracha, his memory will be a blessing.
Thank you.
(updated 12:42 p.m. to add the names of other speakers)
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Well stated.
I agree.
The only thing I would have added is Milton's line about truth being stronger than falsehood.
Guess nobody murdered you. At Harvard that’s not a sure thing.
Way to frame it as good vs evil, smart vs dumb. Very heartfelt and a good way to remember Charlie Kirk’s legacy.
Courage is a word we use for extremists we agree with. I remember a time when there as a big discussion because someone had called terrorists courageous. (Probably some kind of islamic terrorist.) That was definitely not allowed at the time, and probably wouldn't be today.
As far as I can tell Charlie Kirk was a peaceful extremist. Which is definitely better than the violent kind, but it exactly explains the nature of his "courage". Calling for gay people to be stoned to death, for example, certainly requires a kind of courage, but it is hardly something to be applauded.
We are all Charlie Kirk
Except for you, you weren’t chosen.
It was Bill Maher who rejected the President's claim that the 9/11 terrorists were cowards, only a few weeks after the attacks. He got into a lot of trouble for that.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=121312&page=1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politically_Incorrect
(ABC cancelled his show, which is how he ended up exiled back to cable.)
Does take some Cohones to sacrifice yourself in a murderous attack, still Evil. Not really what this fuck did.
What's the thought here? You're still going to lie and defame Charlie Kirk and distort his views but you're going to tone it down and call him a "peaceful" extremist"? Would that be like calling others "peaceful" nazis? More of the same garbage here, just pretending to be "civil." "Rather than engaging in substantive debate, the Left weaponizes historical atrocities to frame their adversaries as dangerous extremists. This practice has its roots in communist propaganda and has evolved into a powerful tool of psychological manipulation, ensuring that anyone who questions progressive ideology is immediately put on the defensive." https://selsey.substack.com/p/the-leftist-tactic-of-labeling-opponents
Look, the bot has yet another preprogrammed response that doesn't say anything substantive at all, and manages to make retarded claims like "framing their adversaries as dangerous extremists … has its roots in communist propaganda," which is something that only those programmed to use "Marxist" and "communist" as all-purpose epithets could say with a straight face, and is only off by several thousand years.
Good to see you're just as oblivious as ever but I'm glad you chimed in crazy Dave. I'd like to ask your take on this. Many on the left are not just intolerant and stupid, like you, many are embracing political violence. A piece by John Hinderaker from PL blog recently discussed a Rutgers University survey from April:
Rutgers found that only 45% of those who described themselves as liberal (including those who said they were “slightly liberal”) think that assassinating President Trump would be “not at all justified.” A majority saw some justification, and an appalling 13% said that killing Trump would be “completely justified.” No wonder that two people, so far, have tried to do it.
Thoughts, such as they are for you, crazy Dave?
Or, maybe David is the bot?
Yeah, you fags hate it when your dialectic is called out.
It is possible for two things to be true at the same time.
I absolutely, positively condemn in the strongest of terms the violence perpetrated against Charlie Kirk.
And I also absolutely, positively condemn in the strongest of terms the violence Charlie Kirk has on his conscience for what ICE is doing to immigrants and their families. Thanks in no small part to his actions in helping Trump get elected, immigrants are being killed, sent to prisons in remote parts of the world, their families are being torn apart, their lives are being destroyed, and anyone who thinks it's not violent hasn't seen an ICE raid.
I want the violence to stop on both sides. And if you are going to condemn it in one side, you need to condemn it on the other as well. It's a bit disingenuous to say your side isn't violent because you've delegated the task to ICE.
This post exemplifies the sick mindset of the modern left. Charlie Kirk's advocacy for the election of President Trump was not equivalent to advocacy for violence. And of course, it should be noted that ICE is engaged in enforcing federal immigration law, not acts of violence, political or otherwise. More than a few American citizens have been attacked and murdered by illegals. That's violence, in case you were curious.
Lol, you don't want the violence to stop. You're only terrified because your side is suffering the consequences of it this time.
"Calling for gay people to be stoned to death, for example,"
Lying to justify a murder is a leftie thing, clearly.
What you wrote here is, you know, absolutely false.
He was a moderate mainstream conservative as far as I can tell.
Well, you are huge Breitbart fan so I’m not sure you are the best judge of normal conservative.
Yeah, for you, a normal conservative is someone who doesn't actually fight back against you.
Either you don't tell very well, or "moderate mainstream conservative" means something else entirely.
Kirk's own words indicate that he was by no means moderate, and if he is what passes for mainstream conservatism, it is no longer a position worthy of respect.
" Calling for gay people to be stoned to death" Not true.
In 2024, Kirk criticized a YouTuber (“Ms. Rachel”) for using the Bible’s command “love your neighbor” in support of Pride.
In that same context, he quoted a lesser-known part of Leviticus (Leviticus 18) which says that “if a man lies with another man … he shall be stoned to death.” He used that to argue that Christians are being inconsistent when they cite parts of the Bible favoring LGBTQ people while ignoring harsher scriptural passages."
That was Kirk's criticism of Christianity, not support. Yours is yet another out-of-context quote.
I watched the video where this all came from. This summary on FactCheck seems accurate as to what Kirk said there:
In his reply, Kirk said [YouTuber - Rachel] Accurso left out something else the Bible says. “She’s not totally wrong,” Kirk said. “The first part is Deuteronomy 6:3–5. The second part is Leviticus 19. So you love God, so you must love his law. How do you love somebody? You love them by telling them the truth, not by confirming or affirming their sin.”
He continued: “And it says, by the way, Ms. Rachel, might want to crack open that Bible of yours, in a lesser reference, part of the same part of scripture is in Leviticus 18, is that thou shall lay with another man shall be stoned to death, just saying. So, Ms. Rachel, you quote Leviticus 19, love your neighbor as yourself. The chapter before affirms God’s perfect law when it comes to sexual matters.”
That reads, taken literally at least, as though Kirk was including the stoning to death of a man that lays with another man as part of "God's perfect law when it comes to sexual matters." I'm actually fairly sure he was not really advocating for or even condoning violence on LGBTQ+ people. My best guess, [with the disclaimer that I can't read minds, especially of people that were recently murdered], is that he was just picking up a thread for what he thought of as a gotcha against that woman's statements as a quick take during a podcast. I am confident that he really did mean, though, that male-male sex being a sin is part of God's perfect law.
As I see it, Kirk was arguing that (a) God's law is perfect, so it's not improved by humans picking and choosing what to follow, and (b) someone who loves himself will remind himself as needed that homosexual behavior threatens one's mortal life and immortal soul. Loving one's neighbor as oneself implies not blithely ignoring that neighbor's sinful behavior (love the sinner, hate the sin). It would be hypocrisy to excuse one's sinful behavior just because one is inclined to sin. So if one wants to argue that Jews or Christians should tolerate homosexual behavior, the argument has to be a lot more sophisticated than "see Leviticus 19".
(I am an atheist, and I do not want to live in a society that legally punishes people who engage in same-sex conduct. I think this prohibition is of a piece with considering shellfish and cheeseburgers unclean: none of them are why I'm an atheist, but they are all examples of Biblical laws that I disagree with. And I know there are lots of arguments about how to interpret those verses as well.)
So if one wants to argue that Jews or Christians should tolerate homosexual behavior, the argument has to be a lot more sophisticated than "see Leviticus 19".
The argument that homosexual behavior "threatens one's mortal life and immortal soul" needs a lot more support than Kirk is giving here or elsewhere. Hitchen's Razor - that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I don't need to counter his arguments with evidence if he didn't support his arguments with anything but scripture and his own prejudices.
I also don't need to provide evidence that a specific group of human beings has a right to live their lives in peace and with equal protection under the law, just because some Jews and Christians (among other religious peoples) think that those human beings are engaging in "sin", according to their beliefs. That's the only tolerance for homosexuality that I require from them, and I include it among the "self-evident" truths of our human rights.
See Leviticus 18.
Kirk had already referenced that. I already said that scripture isn't sufficient support for anyone that isn't a believer. For those of us that aren't believers, scripture is completely irrelevant, actually. Kirk might as well have been saying that it was his own belief based on nothing for how much weight I give to Leviticus.
Premeditated suicide for a cause is problematic in determining whether it is courageous to do so or not. Going into a violent situation may take courage or it may not. It depends on the person and the time allowed for the decision to be made. Complexities abound, but I'd reason that the elements of extremism are an Old World thing, for where else is there a long history of it ?
Yes, I have this bias against the Old World and for good reason as it is historically a violent place with no change it sight.
Justifying violence is much easier than reframing from the act. Courage in committing to violence may be a one time thing where further violence becomes easier for some people. With Non-Violent Struggle, the hope is those engaging in violence will tire of it over time because violence, for normal people, is harmful for both sides and becomes abhorrent especially when the violence is not reciprocal.
Not reciprocating violence takes a lot more courage than blowing oneself up.
Calling for gay people to be stoned to death, for example
It's already been nearly 24 hours since other more well-known jackasses publicly humiliated themselves by regurgitating that bit of well-debunked bullshit, and yet here you are...more than stupid enough to still be regurgitating it anyway.
I didn't expect Martinned2 to fall for that, but he sure did.
I didn't expect Martinned2 to fall for that
Given his track record for ignorance-based commentary I'm mot sure why you wouldn't expect him to fall for anything that he thinks supports whatever bullshit narrative he's pushing.
Given his track record for ignorance-based commentary...
Uh, what track record are you looking at? I was surprised because I don't see that from him.
So we're still in the "are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?" stage of populist BS...
(The next stage is probably some combination of "he said it, but it's no big deal/he was joking/he was right".)
That's why your side is being cancelled for celebrating political violence, sweaty.
"Courage is a word we use for extremists we agree with."
If that is your definition, it does not speak well for you.
...or for Stephen Sachs, or for Josh Blackman?
Calling Charlie an “extremest” is, well, extremist. You have, somehow, redefined the word “extremist” to mean, in your mind, someone who is not rabidly progressive. Are there but two sexes? Arent many, if not most transgendered mentally I’ll? Aren’t we happiest in long term monogamous relationships? Isn’t love a country good? Forswearing violence for debate? These are all long standing traditional American values that Charlie espoused, and are held by a bulk of Americans. What makes them “extremist”? These are, for the most part, 80/20 values, with the 20%, like you, claiming the 80% are the extremists. I think a mirror and some self reflection are in order.
Are there but two sexes?
As a first approximation, that binary model of sex and gender works for the vast majority of people. The problem is when some decide, for cultural, religious or personal reasons, to insist that what works for ~95% or more of people is true for exactly 100%. Those that want to claim that it is just basic biology or science, need to actually be reasoning in the way that science works and rely on verifiable data.
Arent many, if not most transgendered mentally I’ll?
I don't know, are they? 1) What is the scientific basis for this claim? (How was the data collected and analyzed? How were confounding variables controlled for? Where was it peer reviewed and published?) 2) Could any struggles with mental illness be caused or at least aggravated by the negative treatment from people that disapprove of them? I mean, when there is a segment of society, including people with political power, trying to ban them from their preferred bathroom saying that this is necessary to protect children from the dangerous trans perverts, how would you expect that to affect their mental health? Especially with that being among the milder things directed at trans people.
Aren’t we happiest in long term monogamous relationships?
Yeah? So? That doesn't come with enough context to even know what it is supposed to be advocating for. Is it arguing against polyamory? Casual sex? How does supporting the positive aspects of long term monogamy interact with helping people leave abusive relationships? How does it interact with encouraging equality between partners?
Isn’t love a country good?
"Love" of country is too vague for me to answer that question. What some people call "love of country" is a sense of superiority over other nations that they would use to justify exploiting and subjugating other "lesser" nations. It would justify suppressing the history of mistakes in their country's past and indoctrinating the youth into blind loyalty to the current regime. Be specific about what you consider love for America, and then we'd have something to discuss.
Forswearing violence for debate?
I hope that would not be a controversial position. There, I would agree completely. I would add, however, that forswearing attempts to use power to silence opponents is equally important. I would further add that forswearing attempts to suppress the ability of voters to choose one's opponents in elections is equally important. And lastly, I would add that forswearing violence and intimidation when contesting the results of an election that one's side lost is equally important.
These are all long standing traditional American values that Charlie espoused, and are held by a bulk of Americans.
Too many of his positions are described by you so broadly, that of course ~80% of people would express agreement in a poll or whatever. Give us specific statements from Kirk that people have said were "extreme" from him, and maybe we can see where those beliefs really fit relative to the full spectrum of views.
Notable in not actually referencing any particular viewpoint or "truth" that Kirk propounded or proved true.
For the Right Kirk, and his tragic death, will continue to live forever as proof that they win debates, without actually having to prove they won any particular debate.
For the Left, Kirk proves that when they cant win debates, they murder you.
Except that "the left" didn't think that they couldn't beat Charlie Kirk in a debate. This video is from someone* you no doubt would call a "leftist". He is interviewing a Cambridge student that went to one of Kirk's debates there. The premise of this interview is that she was highly effective and "humiliated" Kirk, and the video is devoted to explaining how she did that.
https://youtu.be/Zn0_2iACV-A?si=qPb4WFkoh2iSrPhj
What I saw, and continue to see, in the criticism of Charlie Kirk and what he said in debates, was how his critics viewed his debate tactics and style as being intellectually dishonest and aimed at motivating those already in support of his positions, and toward being viral in order to try and grow that support.
His murder is tragic because he was a human being that was murdered, right in front of his wife and children, no less. His murder is also tragic because it seems that the killer really was motivated by his belief that Kirk's views and words justified killing him. We'll only pull back from the precipice of more political violence if we can unite in telling the people that agree with our political views that this kind of political violence is never justified. That doing exactly what those in the video I linked did is the correct path to "win[ning] debates."
I put it that way because it is an unfortunate truth of human nature that we don't listen very well when the other side (of whatever divide is at issue) is telling us what we need to do differently. The price of choosing a side is accepting that we will become biased in favor of the side we choose.
RedheadedPharoh doesn't seem to believe that. Instead, he is telling those on his side that they should assume that their political opponents will murder them if they can't win debates.
I don't know why he thinks saying that will accomplish anything good.
*I don't recall how he describes himself in terms of his ideology. Having watched several of his videos, he is definitely somewhere on the left side of the political spectrum in both his home of the UK and in the U.S. He talks about religion and skepticism more than anything, and he seems to get into politics mostly in terms of where religion and politics intersect.
I had not paid much attention to Kirk before, and had the impression that he was another political commentator of the sort I might agree with on a lot of things, but would not find particularly interesting to listen to, as it would be more of a sort of talk radio mass market product. I was expecting it to be more shallow. This may be in part because I formed initial impressions when he was really young and first started getting famous.
But after watching some clips now I'm surprised and impressed by his breadth and depth of knowledge, articulate communication, and most of all his energy and accomplishments. Someone said he would have been president some day. Quite plausible. Also surprising is how impactful this event was to me personally. And there is something different about how this is impacting millions of others. He's definitely an inspiration and a light.
Breadth of knowledge? In the clips I saw, he repeatedly cited facts that didn't actually exist, only to spin away with some smartass response. To quote somebody else:
"This gets to something that as a former stand-up I recognized but couldn’t name. A 31 year old professional content creator baiting 19 year old amateurs into the format of his choice isn’t debate, it’s crowd work. It’s debate-shaped crowd work farmed for content."
You guys confuse "debate" with spectacles of proclamation and contradiction. It's like Python's Argument Clinic.
A debate, for example, of Kirk about the covid vaccine would be meaningless because he doesn't actually know that much about RNA, and anything he said about it would be likely cherry picked from somebody who didn't know much more.
Im surprised shame hasn't kept you away today.
Your falling hook, line, and sinker for the MAGAvMAGA lie didnt make you self reflect even a little bit?
Does self-reflection come with having a soul and an inner monologue? Maybe thats why you are posting here today.
Democrat Supremacists have neither.
What would I be ashamed of? Noting that Tyler had Groyper links?
And in the end, what does it matter? The Right intends to use Kirk's death to justify crushing the left regardless of what Tyler's actual motivations were.
Wait until you find out he was living with his tranny boyfriend and they've identified six or more trannies involved in the plot. A real life tranny conspiracy.
...they've identified six or more trannies involved in the plot. A real life tranny conspiracy.
Are you basing that on something more reliable than what Stephen King based his claim that Kirk had called for gay people to be stoned to death?
Protocols of the Elders of Trandom.
Noting that Tyler had Groyper links?
You morons still trying to push that bit of stupidity? Let me guess...you fell for the track suit squat ant the photoshopped "Trump For President" t-shirt crap? Are you claiming that "Hey fascist, catch" and having a romantic relationship with a transgender male transitioning to a "woman" are somehow now hallmarks of the far-right?
"Hey fascist, catch" is a reference to Helldivers 2 where you play as the fascists.
Is there any sourcing about a trans girlfriend that isn't coming from Indian tabloids?
Addendum - I should have said, what's most impressive is his heart for truth and for people.
We are all Charlie Kirk. We all could be Charlie Kirk.
I saw this said the other day and I cant stop thinking about it.
They dont kill us because we are literal Nazis (we arent), they call us Nazis because they want to kill us.
I saw this said the other day and I cant stop thinking about it.
I would suggest that you might have difficulty in not thinking about it, because it satisfies some emotional need to believe that it is true.
What exactly do you think the motivation is for demonizing your political opponents by constantly labeling them as fascists, nazis, existential threats to democracy, etc?
The goal of demonizing one's political opponents is to try and get people on one's side to view those opponents so negatively, that it justifies many things*:
- No compromises with them, ever.
- Not believing anything they say, no matter the evidence. (Evidence in their favor must be lies.)
- They can't be allowed power, even if they win elections. But, if they win, it was because they cheated.
- The party that opposes them must be supported completely, and any flaws in that party have to be overlooked or explained away.
- When the party that opposes them says that they need more power to fight the evil ones, they should be trusted not to abuse that power.
- To sum up, anything that helps oppose the evil party should be rationalized as being good or it should at least be seen as necessary to stop evil.
One thing to remember, though, is that demons are mythical/religious entities that embody ultimate evil. So, "demonizing" a political opponent is a term that has the connotation of it being unjustified. RedheadedPharoh said, "they call us Nazis because they want to kill us."
He doesn't specify who "they" are. He doesn't source any quotes of him or political groups he identifies with being called "Nazis" by whoever he wants his audience to fear. His support for these unspecified people wanting to kill him and others on his side is based on, what, exactly?
I would say that he is demonizing his political opponents as consisting largely of would be murderers.
Personally, I don't agree with anyone labeling Kirk, Trump, or anyone that is prominent and aligned with Republicans as being "Nazis". That is demonization as well.
"Fascist" is a broader term and not quite as loaded. Fascism has specific definitions and characteristics that historians and political theorists have documented, analyzed, and detailed for a long time. "Communist" and "Socialist" have similarly specific definitions in those same contexts.
Anyone using any of those terms to describe mainstream political figures should avoid doing so, even hyperbolically, because of how loaded those terms are and how easily they become tools of demagoguery and propaganda. At least, they should avoid it unless they can back it up based on the way those terms are used in the academic study of political theory and history.
"Existential threats to democracy" is different, because it isn't a label loaded with historical meaning. It is a description of what they see as the dangers of the person or group that they are talking about.
Democracy is fragile. It depends on people that disagree with each other very strongly, still accepting that voting is the right way to settle those differences and decide how to govern. And it only works if those that supported the side that lost the election accept it just as much as those that supported the winners. When our side loses, we accept that. We can immediately start working to persuade more voters to choose our side next time. We can continue voicing our opinions about the flaws and errors we think we see in the other side. Accepting the loss doesn't not mean being quiet, at all. Politicians in the minority party in legislatures still have their votes within those bodies. Accepting the loss doesn't mean giving up.
Any political figure that consistently and deliberately pushes voters away from the trust and agreement that underpins democracy is an existential threat to democracy.
*Edit: Those are the motivations that fall short of trying to justify violence against those being demonized. Demonizing a political enemy for that purpose is an obvious necessity to enact that as a plan. But demonization doesn't need to have a motivation that goes that far to be demonization.
What exactly do you think the motivation is for demonizing your political opponents by constantly labeling them as fascists, nazis, existential threats to democracy, etc?
You don't think accuracy, calling a spade a spade, is a virtue in its own right?
To point out that people who attempt to overthrow the government when an election goes the wrong way are following in the footsteps of fascists and nazis and are, in fact, existential threats to democracy.
They dont kill us because we are literal Nazis (we arent)
Are you sure? How can you tell?
Yes, to marxists, anyone who doesn't follow their retarded political theology is a fascist.
Anyone that calls me a fascist is a Marxist! Now stop labeling people as extremists when they aren't!!!
Very courageous to publicly speak out in support of Charlie.
You put your life on the line. Literally.
Given the rarity of political violence, the courage is more imagined than real.
Like your sanity
Given the embrace of cancel culture by Trumpists since Trump is back in the White House, I would argue that the courage is more on the other side of the argument.
Not a lot of fun when the ratchet is turning the other direction, is it?
If it is confirmed that the killer was indeed a groyper, I don't think it will make a difference to the new right's sense of grievance (an emotion now elevated to a sacrament)/ They will feel that at some level it was still somehow caused by The Left (tm). Maybe a few will have just enough honesty to concede that the killer was homegrown, but even they will probably resort to the "lone wolf crazy" line.
The assassination of Kirk was (clearly) wrong and regrettable, but the zeal which the right here and elsewhere are trying to make him a saint indicates that the right aren't too concerned about the salient question of the killer's motive.
The killer was pissed because Charlie didn’t approve of the killers boyfriends “Transition”, don’t remember Charlie shooting anyone in the neck.
"confirmed"
There is zero evidence to confirm. You are desparate.
Groyper-memed phrases hardly counts as zero evidence.
Lol, cope harder.
There is some evidence of this. But I still think people should hold their water until all the facts are known. Such a rush to make this murder conform to this or that scenario. From both sides.
Yes! Early days yet; no need to be in such a freaking hurry.
Such a rush to make this murder conform to this or that scenario.
100%
+1
I award you one internet.
{Add whatever other meme for complete agreement you can think of here}
>If it is confirmed that the killer was indeed a groyper,
Is anyone surprised the news of the killer's tranny boyfriend/roommate and the coven of trannies who were premediating it and plotting this hasn't made down to the likes of SRG2 or botaglove?
Like someone else said, these people have this and they will never let it go. 10 years from they will still be claiming Kirk was killed by a groyper for not being fascist enough.
These trannies need to be all locked up.
If it is confirmed that the killer was indeed a groyper
You should at least consider pulling your head out of your own ass at some point.
Keep Hope Alive.
Coming from Kaz, this here is damn funny.
Sachs, quoting Scott Alexander, says this:
… Debate is difficult and annoying. It doesn't scale. It only works on the subset of people who are willing to talk to you in good faith and smart enough to understand the issues involved.
Logical debate has one advantage over narrative, rhetoric, and violence: it's an asymmetric weapon. That is, it's a weapon which is stronger in the hands of the good guys than in the hands of the bad guys.
My critique is here:
In ideal conditions (which may or may not ever happen in real life)...
He should have just said that ideal conditions never happen, because the ideal conditions, where both sides of the debate are fully committed to relying solely on logic, verifiable facts, and not fallacious rhetorical tactics, never happens in real life. Even formal debate competitions wouldn't meet "ideal conditions", I would expect, and that isn't "real life" anyway. Appealing to those ideal conditions isn't even as useful as assuming a frictionless vacuum in introductory physics classes.
I can't say that I agree with how he seems to suggest to his audience, (which he is assuming wants to be "the good guy" in a debate), to focus on that "asymmetric weapon" of logical argument. And to do that even against the "bad guys" that will use whatever logical fallacies, false claims, and emotional appeals that they think will help them "win" whatever argument is happening.
[Edit: Additionally, Sachs seems to be taking Alexander's "bad guys" as those that would use violence to silence or intimidate the "good guys" rather than those that would use dishonest polemical and rhetorical tactics. Those are not bad guys in the terms Alexander was using the term, from what I can see of what Sachs quoted. Violence and intimidation isn't debate at all. It tries to prevent debate from happening.]
He finishes [Sachs quoting Alexander] with:
If you want people to be right more often than chance, you have to teach them ways to distinguish truth from falsehood. If this is in the face of enemy action, you will have to teach them so well that they cannot be fooled. You will have to do it person by person until the signal is strong and clear. You will have to raise the sanity waterline. There is no shortcut.
That's the right sentiment, but it is incomplete. Most of all, it is directing people that are going to be engaging in debate to look at their audience this way. That is bad advice. That is because you have to start by teaching yourself not to be fooled by you.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
From what I've seen of Charlie Kirk's debates, he was not someone I would encourage anyone else to emulate.
Take Feynman's advice seriously.
Leave Kirk and his face-to-face encounters aside for a moment. Note that most of the nation's debate about public affairs takes place online, and behind pseudonyms.
That last bit is corrosive to debate quality. It frees opinion to wander far afield from social constraint, which of course ought to be subject to question, but also recognized as a potential source of wisdom.
The single most effective thing which could be done to improve public debate is for online publishers to require contributors and commenters to do so under their real names.
Lol, sure, look at how your side's complete lack of OPSEC and decades-long indulgence towards cancelling people for dumb tweets they made in middle school is coming home to roost.
Couldn't agree more there Steven Lather-up, peoples should post under their Actual Names!
Like I do!!!!
Frank
Multiple people have done the work to suggest that his "memory [should not] be a blessing." Here is but one such source:
https://campaign-trails.ghost.io/the-white-civility-council/
If the links there are not enough for you, others have provided their own. The material is out there.
https://substack.com/inbox/post/173351637
https://theblackwallsttimes.com/2025/09/11/charlie-kirk-is-dead-but-black-america-remembers-his-racism/
https://bsky.app/profile/sethcotlar.bsky.social/post/3lyktehdra22u
You can point to some single comment and say it was misinterpreted. The record as a whole is harder to refute.
People who pointed out these things -- from when he was first shot -- repeatedly denounce his shooting, partially since they know how dangerous violence can be, especially politically related violence.
We should also carefully avoid assumptions about the killer. Not that people followed that suggestion. The perils of the times.
I've never listened to Mr. Kirk debate or speak. His murder is tragic and intolerable for exactly the reasons Mr. Sachs put forth.