The Volokh Conspiracy
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Trump's Unjust and Illegal Killing of 11 Venezuelans
Killing suspected drug traffickers is both unjust and illegal. And it could be the start of an effort to turn the already awful War on Drugs into something more like a real war, thereby making it even worse.

On September 2, at President Trump's order, US military forces used a drone strike to kill 11 Venezuelans on a small boat in the Caribbean Sea. The claimed justification for this action is that the people on the boat were drug traffickers. Even if that claim is true, the killings were unjust and illegal.
In my view, the entire War on Drugs is fundamentally unjust. It kills and imprisons many thousands of people every year, for no good reason, and in the process stimulates the growth of organized crime and associated violence. It has also severely undermined the Constitution. Under the principle of "my body, my choice," the government should not be in the business of deciding what drugs adults, at least, are allowed to consume. And the way to get rid of drug gangs like Venezuela's Tren de Aragua (TdA) is to end it, just as ending the similarly unjust Prohibition regime was what largely put paid to the organized crime involved in the alcohol trade then. But even if we assume the War on Drugs has some justification, it is a matter of ordinary law enforcement and doesn't justify gratuitously killing people without due process.
US officials admit they could have interdicted the boat and detained the people on board. They did not pose any imminent threat of violence, and they were not combatants in any war against the US. Calling them "narco-terrorists" does not change these obvious facts.
In addition, it is not even clear these people were drug traffickers at all (they might have been migrants fleeing Venezuela's horrible socialist dictatorship). If they were shipping drugs, it is not clear they were going to the US, as opposed to Trinidad and Tobago (which was much closer to their location) or somewhere else. It is not illegal for people on a ship in international waters to transport drugs that are banned in the United States. US law only applies, if at all, if they were planning bring their cargo into US territorial waters.
As GOP Senator Rand Paul put it, "The reason we have trials and we don't automatically assume guilt is what if we make a mistake and they happen to be people fleeing the Venezuelan dictator? … off our coast it isn't our policy just to blow people up … even the worst people in our country, they still get a trial." He's right.
I won't go through the legal issues in detail here, because national security law expert Brian Finucane has already done so in a thorough Just Security article. The bottom line is that these were illegal, extrajudicial killings.
I would call it a war crime, except that there is no war here, despite Trump's (also illegal) efforts to use TdA's activities to invoke the Alien Enemies Act against Venezuelan migrants. So really it's just an old-fashioned regular crime. Perhaps the president has immunity for his part in it under the Supreme Court's dubious immunity ruling in Trump v. United States (which is far from a model of clarity). But if so that just means he can't be prosecuted. It does not not make his actions either legal or right.
I have previously warned against Republicans' dangerous plans to try to turn the War on Drugs into a real war, thereby making an already awful policy much worse (though at that time they seemed more focused on Mexico than Venezuela). We shall have to see if this strike is just the first of a series of similarly terrible actions; administration officials say it may be.
Back in 2013, I testified before a Senate subcommittee on President Obama's use of targeted drone strikes in the War on Terror. Ironically (in light of recent events), I was called as a witness by Republicans who worried that Obama was going too far; some Democrats on the committee also had concerns. I argued that targeted killing of Al Qaeda terrorist leaders was legal and justified (citing precedents like the targeted killing of Admiral Yamamoto and SS General Reinhard Heydrich during World War II) but also that there should be somewhat greater due process to prevent inadvertent targeting of the innocent. See my testimony here.
I have not kept up with this issue in detail since then, instead focusing my writings on other matters). But the concerns I and others expressed at that time apply with much greater force to targeting alleged drug smugglers. And unlike Heydrich, Yamamoto, and Al Qaeda leaders, suspected drug traffickers are simply not proper military targets, except perhaps in rare situations where they are themselves about to launch an attack.
Perhaps, though I am skeptical, evidence will emerge to prove that the people killed in the strike were planning a dangerous terrorist attack, or the like. Otherwise, the president committed an utterly indefensible and criminal act here.
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The cultists won't care. They won't care that the regime changed the story about where the boat was headed, they won't care that the WoD isn't a war that justifies extrajudicial killing, and they won't care that being called a terrorist automatically makes someone's life forfeit.
What we will see is further acceptance of one of Trump's vilely effective political moves, which is to do something bad to (likely) unsavoury characters, so that the Democrats complaining can be accused of supporting the characters, not the principles
Oh look, Amos obliged you in the very next comment!
Maybe file another meritless lawsuit on behalf of some drug smugglers or cartels? I know, I know, never go full retard but forget that and reach for the judicial insurrection stars.
Im trying to feel sorry but I must have used up my pity quota for the day since there's so many other people to feel sorry for before hardened international drug traffickers
Mr. Somin: what if what if? What if? what if?
See how Snake Mr. Somin uses baseless speculation as a red herring. What if the j6 protestors were trying to tell the police man their fly was down before their brutal murders that 'compassionate' Somin cheers? What if Trump really thought he was saving democracy on 2020? There's a lot more evidence to that than the poor innocents who just looked like drug traffickers hypothesis he pulled out of his butt.
In reality Presidents get intelligence, typically more reliable than somins fevered imagination and they act on it usually without a formal trial ahead of time.like it or not that's been the standard so Trump is hardly blazing territory.
So the only question is is drug trafficking an attack on a country? And the answer is yes. Classic broken windows which has been proven time and again. If corruptocrats like Somin had their way places like new York and El Salvador would still be in the nadir of their horrific crime waves.
We don’t know who they were.
We also have laws that must be followed even when it comes to people you have decided you know are bad guys.
We also have laws that must be followed even when it comes to people you have decided you know are bad guys.
Nah. AmosArch goes along with the cultists position that Fuhrer macht rechts.
They were pirates in International Waters and any civilized nation had the right to exterminate the vermin.
They were not pirates, and that "right" would not exist even if they were.
How do you know that? Beyond it serving your partisan purpose.
I'm not agreeing the Dr. Ed's previous, but I think in this age of "the death penalty is unconstitutional", people have forgotten what is actually permitted on the high seas. Just like with deportations, the "due process" required is not necessarily what some want it to be.
Of course, I'm old enough to remember how a United States senator took the Senate floor trying to coax a declaration from a president of the United States that wasn't okay for him to order the droning of a "US citizen" in the Middle East. YMMV
Did the killers even call them "pirates"?
What do you know about due process in international waters such that summary execution is legit in any circumstance?
I know that because I know what a pirate is — someone engaged in piracy — and I know that even Trump did not accuse them of doing so.
How do you know they were drug smugglers?
You don't, and neither did Trump. And if they had some evidence why not have the Coast Guard or the Navy stop the boat and take those on board into detention until some one could sort it out.
This was murder, pure and simple. It proves that Trump can indeed shoot someone on 5th Avenue and his deranged cultists will cheer.
Amos, did you miss the part of our Constitution that required all "process of law" that is "due" before depriving any "person" of "life"? Here, as far as I can see, there was no process of law relevant to the alleged crime. No warrant was sought or issued. No search or seizure was effected. No evidence was presented or even obtained. Our national leaders (at least Trump and Hegseth) merely committed murder far from our shores, and to do so they abused other Americans who had sworn to support and defend our Constitution in every official action they take.
Much of what we have are mere allegations of a few people suffering from their own form of Trump Derangement Syndrome (Trump, Hegseth and Rubio) that the people on the boat they blew up (1) were not U.S. citizens, (2) were Venezuelan citizens, (3) were involved in smuggling a substance that cannot be imported into the U.S. without committing a crime. Trump and Hegseth publicly admitted to murdering 11 people that, as far as I know, they have not even identified publicly.
Enemies of the state must be killed.
(And we will decide who they are.)
Not Americans, not in America so I don't see your point. You may as well try invoking Sumerian law for all the relevance of what you're saying.
Social, do you understand the reason our Constitution at times expressly distinguishes between citizens and any person? The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments expressly protect rights of any "person" (to all process of law that is due) to emphasize that our Constitution doesn't only protect U.S. citizens or people in the U.S. For the same reason, Article VI emphasizes that "treaties" are part of "the supreme Law of the Land."
Think about where and against whom Americans typically fight wars. It's overseas against people who typically aren't U.S. citizens. Even so, those people are protected by our Constitution and our laws and treaties. Every soldier (like every other employee of the executive or judicial branches) promised not only to "support and defend" our "Constitution" against "all enemies, foreign and domestic," but also to "bear true faith and allegiance to" our Constitution. That means that even in the heat of battle under even the most desperate circumstances, Americans cannot do some things even to save their own lives or even to ensure the success of their (subordinate) mission.
This has nothing to do with who you feel sorry for. This is about an extrajudicial killing of a civilian vessel in international waters.
MAGAs: It is only illegal if I care about it.
It's called "suppression of piracy."
Ed, it might be "called" that by someone, but what process of law convinced you that anyone on that boat was a pirate? What actual law are you invoking to justify Trump's murders as suppression of piracy?
It is not. Because it's not piracy. But also, it's not legal to just murder pirates.
Piracy ended because the British Navy hung most of them from yardarms.
Piracy hasn't ended, and the British abolished the death penalty for piracy in the early 19th century.
Ed, you might recall that the point of the American Revolution was to reject what Britain called "the rule of law," i.e., that Parliament was supreme so the law was whatever Parliament said it was. Our Constitution was reduced to writing and then ratified by the People (and Article VI included the Supremacy Clause and the Oath Clause) to ensure that all public servants understood their first, foremost and constant duty was to "support" our "Constitution" in all official conduct. So even if Brits summarily hanged pirates hundreds of years ago, that is irrelevant to the limits of the powers vested in the president and other executive branch employees by our Constitution.
With this president, that's like matter and antimatter.
Also, you people refuse to even believe the overwhelmingly supported intelligence that Russia wanted Trump to win in 2016 and acted on that desire and that Trump was aware of and welcomed it, so it's a bit hypocritical of you to start talking about how we should believe imagined intelligence that you think Trump was acting on.
The answer is, "Only to retards."
Well, among libertarians.
But most of the usual suspects here are not even close to being libertarian. The evidence shows that they are instead garden variety right wingers, for whom "drugs are evil" is not a sign of retardation, but of conviction.
(The real evil here is the drug trade deficit, obviously.)
Look, even if one thinks that it it legitimate to criminalize drug use, that would not make selling drugs an "attack on a country." There are many things an American or foreign person or foreign country can do that would be bad for the U.S. that are not "attacks" on the U.S.
In today's episode of Trump Derangement Syndrome starring Ilya Somin we bring you the following rant....
Ilya demands that Trump give Venezuela a new boat, replace the drugs, allow new drug runners to land the drugs in America, and then claim asylum and immigrate to the United States.
Isn't every day a fabulous day that you wake up and Ilya Somin is not a judge or in any way invested with government power,
Surfer, did you miss the part of our Constitution that required all "process of law" that is "due" before depriving any "person" of "life"? Here, as far as I can see, there was no process of law relevant to the alleged crime. No warrant was sought or issued. No search or seizure was effected. No evidence was presented or even obtained. Our national leaders (at least Trump and Hegseth) merely committed murder far from our shores, and to do so they abused other Americans who had sworn to support and defend our Constitution in every official action they take.
Much of what we have are mere allegations of a few people suffering from their own form of Trump Derangement Syndrome (Trump, Hegseth and Rubio) that the people on the boat they blew up (1) were not U.S. citizens, (2) were Venezuelan citizens, (3) were involved in smuggling a substance that cannot be imported into the U.S. without committing a crime. Trump and Hegseth publicly admitted to murdering 11 people that, as far as I know, they have not even identified publicly.
Sorry. Doesn’t apply to non-Americans not in the US.
Bruce, show me the authority that says that our public officials are authorized to kill unidentified people based on the mere allegation that they might have been planning to engage in a crime in the U.S.
Please also show me the evidence that no person in that boat was a U.S. citizen. For that matter, please show me their names.
Try 400 years of international law on suppression of piracy.
(Alledged) drug traffickers are not pirates.
Why are you so dishonest as to confuse the two?
Dr. Ed is dishonest, of course, but he's also deeply stupid.
David, the projector, projecting yet again.
Ed, what did the boat that was bombed by Trump have to do with piracy?
What did slavery have to do with piracy?
Yet the UK and US dealt with the slave traders as if they were pirates.
Ed, what's your point? What relevance does your point have to whether Trump and Hegseth violated their oaths and our Constitution?
How stupid are you, exactly?
Bruce, do you understand the reason our Constitution at times expressly distinguishes between citizens and any person? The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments expressly protect rights of any "person" (to all process of law that is due) to emphasize that our Constitution doesn't only protect U.S. citizens in the U.S.
What a topic, "did you miss."
You obviously missed the part declaring the cartels terrorist organizations. It was publicly announced, legally proclaimed, and broadcast to the world.
You missed the fact the military attacking terrorists is perfectly legal.
The Classic Illustrated Comic Book version of the Constitution you read left out quite a bit.
Presidents have historically exercised this authority on several occasions, including strikes against terrorist groups and states that harbor or aid them, even when not directly linked to a specific incident. Such actions have included not just retaliation but also preemptive measures to deter or prevent future terrorist threats.
The President derives this power from two main sources: the U.S. Constitution and acts of Congress. The Constitution designates the President as Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces (Article II, Section 2), giving broad authority to direct military operations, especially in emergencies or to respond to threats to national security. Congress has also passed laws, such as the War Powers Resolution and the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) after September 11, 2001, that specifically grant the President the power to use military force against "nations, organizations, or persons" involved in terrorist attacks against the United States.
Keep feeding that Trump Derangement Syndrome of yours while you miss the reality of the situation.
Surfer, what did the boat Trump bombed have to do with terrorism? Who were those people? What were their names? How do you know none were U.S. citizens?
Once again you missed it Jack. Do you live in a cave with your head under a rock to maintain total ignorance of the topics you post on?
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth stated officials “knew exactly who was on that boat, we knew exactly what they were doing, and we knew exactly who they represented, and that was Tren de Aragua,” referring to a Venezuelan criminal group designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization.
Of course your Trump Derangement Syndrome will kick in and scoff at official statements on the record.
Pete Hegseth says lots of things. Sometimes even when he's sober.
David speaks just to hear his head roar.
Surfer, I heard Hegseth say that. That's why I'm asking why we still don't know "exactly who was on that boat" or "exactly" how "they represented [ ] Tren de Aragua." Do you know any such facts? If so, please share.
Surfer, your own comments prove you have Trump Derangement Syndrome. Anything he or his sycophants put out, you swallow.
What happened. You have no evidence they were American citizens. You have no evidence they were peaceful fishermen. You have no evidence the military didn't blow the S.S. Minnow out of the water.
You want to wallow in your delusion that Hegseth isn't stating the exact irrefutable truth because all you have is Trump Derangement Syndrome and that in inexhaustible supply.
Surfer, you and your ilk are contending or implying that the 11 victims of the murderous tendencies of Trump and Hegseth weren't Americans. That's why I ask for any facts supporting your assumption.
I also didn't kill those 11 people and I'm not pretending to justify killing them. I'm not a public servant purporting to have fulfilled my duty to support our Constitution. Trump and Hegseth are purporting to be such public servants, and they killed those people purportedly to fulfill their oaths to support our Constitution.
Trump and Hegseth showed us a video of those people merely riding in a very small boat a very long distance from any U.S. property or person that they could have threatened. Trump and Hegseth aren't providing any facts about who any of those 11 people were or why they were killed. Trump and Hegseth provide a few vague conclusory contentions. Just because you're willing to swallow everything they spit out is no reason anyone else should be so lacking in common sense, intelligence or discretion.
Surfer, a full day ago, you knowingly misrepresented: "Everyone" already "knew who those people were and what they were doing." I requested that you: Please tell us their names and their citizenship. Please tell us the facts that you know that establish what they were doing. Please tell us the facts that establish how each such person was connected to Tren de Aragua.
You still haven't even attempted to substantiate your lie. So again, I ask you to please provide the information you knowingly misrepresented that "everyone" already "knew" more than a day ago.
Okay, so all of that would've been easily checkable on your part and essentially none of that is true. For example, the post-9/11 AUMF authorized the use of force against "those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons," Not against "any terrorist," let alone anyone that the president falsely calls a terrorist, as here.
Surfer, thank you for acknowledging that the president's "power" is limited by "the U.S. Constitution" and under "Article II, Section 2" the president was delegated limited "authority to direct military operations" in "emergencies or to respond to threats to national security." Now, please tell us what facts make you think the 11 people in that little boat off the coast of Venezuela created any kind of "emergency" or even posed a threat to U.S. "national security." I'm not asking for the mere conclusory allegations of people with Trump Derangement Syndrome (Trump, Hegseth and Rubio), I'm asking for facts.
Jack, why pretend any of these people give a shit about the constitution? If Trump says it, they believe it, and that settles it. The legal authority they go by is might makes right, and they believe every word of Trump.
Axulus, for hundreds of years many people have sacrificed their health, their liberty, their happiness and even their lives to support and defend our Constitution. I served with some who gave their lives. I truly do appreciate their service and their sacrifices. The least I can do now to honor them is remind others why they died. Hegseth and Rubio swore the same oaths as the rest of us who served (to "support and defend" our "Constitution" against "all enemies, foreign and domestic"), and the president's oath is even more compelling (to "preserve, protect and defend" our "Constitution" to "the best of [the president's] Ability"). No public servant that I've seen violate their oaths has any excuse for doing so, and they maliciously disrespect those who suffered or sacrificed much to fulfill their oaths.
Trump allows drug traffickers to proceed to the US coast before lighting them up.
Headline: Drumpf slaughters 11 Venezuelan migrants....on AMERICAN soil!
Trump allows drug traffickers to reach the us unload their cargo and then arrests them.
Headline: cruel Drumpf brutalizes 11 Texas men. Heroic Dems demand fair trials and a 20 year long appeal process to insure long time American residents with families and children are not unjustly deported. Brave victims will speak out about Drumpf reign of terror in nationwide interview circuit.
Trump allows drug traffickers operate uninterrupted
Headline: Drumpf policy catastrophic failure! Crime and drug use and violence soars!
Amos, again, did you miss the part of our Constitution that precludes depriving any person of life (or even any liberty or any property) without all process of law that is due? Here, Trump, Rubio and Hegseth openly admitted they were (at best) murdering people (and depriving people of property) who were allegedly maybe planning to somehow cause illegal drugs to be brought into the U.S. As far as I know, Trump, Rubio and Hegseth did not even publicly identify the people who were murdered.
What process here even makes you want to believe that anyone on that boat was a Venezuelan citizen or was involved in any criminal activity?
This is not Joe bob and Jane bob deciding on a whim to carry a few joints over the canadian border. These are allegedly men who are part of a violent criminal organization carrying out an extended operation against America. M
Most likely Trump didn't point to a random spot on the map and instead this target was probably picked out just like the many other targets we've picked for droning with extensive evidence and intelligence to the standards previous Presidents have relied on to make similar decisions. (Perhaps trump abandoned these intelligence standards but thats pure speculation on your part that you need to bolster.)
Now of course all the intelligence in the world is not necessarily foolproof but did you wail and gnash your teeth and rend your garments over every maybe terrorist that we've liquidated without a 20 year court trial with an army of taxpayer funded public defenders and appeal all the way up to the Supreme Court? No? So the only question is whether a (suspected) terrorist bringing in a bomb as part of an organized plot against America to kill tons of people over 10 years (along with many others much sooner and in directly violent ways) is any better than a (suspected) terrorist bringing in a bomb as part of an organized plot against America to kill tons of people over 10 seconds. If you had one shot to eliminate Osama Bin Laden's completely complicit banker before he disappeared to continue funding terrorism would you just kick back in front of the 9/11 victims with a Pina colada and say 'sorry folks he's not DIRECTLY hurting anyone with actual violence'?
“These are allegedly men who are part of a violent criminal organization carrying out an extended operation against America.”
That word “allegedly” says a lot, doesn’t it?
Amos, how do you have any idea who those people were or what they were doing?
What federal statute do you even believe is controlling? What statute established that what the people on that boat were doing was criminal?
Do you have any respect at all for our Constitution? It expressly prohibits depriving anyone of life or even any property without all process of law that is due (Amendment V). It expressly requires a public trial and conviction by a jury (Article III; Amendment VI). Before that, it expressly requires indictment by a grand jury (Amend. V).
Every person involved in the murder of those people on that boat was required to support our Constitution in all official conduct (oaths in Articles II and VI).
So you're saying every President who has called in a drone strike before Trump without a formal trial is also a criminal?
Amos, as regarding any criminal (or potentially criminal) conduct, I'm addressing the material facts. Trump, Hegseth and Rubio publicly admitted that Trump and Hegseth killed 11 people solely because Trump thought (or merely alleged) that one or more such persons might at some time in the future commit a crime somewhere under U.S. jurisdiction. As far as I know, Trump, Hegseth and Rubio continue to fail to even identify any person on that boat. They failed to even state--much less present evidence--of any material fact tending to establish any legal basis for such killings.
We exterminated pirates.
As I noted above, drug traffickers are not pirates.
You are an unbelievable fucking moron.
Any number of people have pointed out that this has nothing to do with piracy, and even if it did the action was murder.
Yet you continue to bleat about pirates. Does your family know you are this far gone?
Amos, do you hear yourself? I asked you what process here even makes you want to believe that anyone on that boat was a Venezuelan citizen or was involved in any criminal activity? Your response was literally merely your opinion about what is "Most likely." You (and we) know of no process whatsoever. You entire last paragraph is (at best) obviously irrelevant misdirection.
I think Amos is a chatbot.
These are allegedly men ..
With the "allegation" coming from one of the biggest liars ever.
Well played!!!
All this blather, just so you can justify the cold-blooded murder of "others".
If your response is typical, I have to say the American public is coming along nicely, for what is to come.
TDS is a mental illness characterized by believing anything Trump says and defending everything he does. Facts, truth, legality, morality, and what they stood for yesterday are not relevant.
International drug traffickers ae the moral equivalent of pirates. In international waters, it's open season on them. If we catch them here in the USA, then they should be captured and tried. But in a high speed boat with four large outboards in the open sea? I'm happy with the result.
I saw plenty of high speed boats with four large outboards on Cape Cod last weekend.
In international waters between Venezuela and the USA? I thought not.
KenMitchell — Yeah, big outboards constantly exit the Cape Cod Canal and power their way into international waters. That is what they were built for, and that is what they do. Whether on each trip they are on the lookout for tuna, or for drugs to import, is a question no one I know can answer. But either way, with as much as 1200 hp hanging on the transom, they use one hell of a lot of fuel to do what they do. So it's plainly either an incredibly expensive hobby, or highly profitable commerce. Maybe both. Catch a 400-pound blue fin and stuff the body cavity with fentanyl. Sell both.
You think it would be legal to use drones to wipe them out? They haven't done a damn thing to prove they are innocent, after all.
Ken, how do you have any idea who those people were or what they were doing?
What federal statute do you even believe is controlling? What statute established that what the people on that boat were doing was criminal?
Do you have any respect at all for our Constitution? It expressly prohibits depriving anyone of life or even any property without all process of law that is due (Amendment V). It expressly requires a public trial and conviction by a jury (Article III; Amendment VI). Before that, it expressly requires indictment by a grand jury (Amend. V).
Every person involved in the murder of those people on that boat was required to support our Constitution in all official conduct (oaths in Articles II and VI).
The Constitution applies to AMERICAN citizens in the USA. It doesn't give any rights to non-American citizens on the high seas. I choose to think of them as pirates.
The first out-of-US mission of the new United State Navy was the suppression of the Barbary pirates in the Mediterranean Sea. The second line of the Marine Corps anthem commemorates that; "To the shores of Tripoli". I don't recall Navy history (I'm a retired US Navy officer) mentioning anything about bringing Barbary pirates back to America for trial.
Trump and Hegseth are acting in America's best interests, even if you're too blinded by your Trump Derangement Syndrome to see it.
Deadly lawless conduct, even after getting corrupt Supreme Court license to do it, is not in America's best interests. SCOTUS has a lot to answer for. The high Court's legitimacy is in tatters, with much of the rest of the judiciary in revolt.
Possibly not Trump (he'll probably be dead anyway) but many of the lower officials and soldiers responsible for these murders will be arrested and tried by the next administration.
Yeah the Left loves to imprison its political opponents. Trump's been nice to you guys. No lawfare like what you did you him even the second time around. But keep pushing.
There is nothing "political" about prosecuting state-sanctioned murder and the violation of oaths.
A retired US Navy officer should have a better grasp of naval history. https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/museums/nmusn/explore/photography/forgotten-wars-19th-century/barbary-war-1801-1805.html
What a great list of cited sources on the website you referenced. Now that is real "history!"
Ken, are you familiar with the logical fallacy of false equivalency? As a retired U.S. Navy officer, you should know and understand that the legal landscape has changed considerably since the conflict with Barbary pirates. You also should understand the vast difference between the circumstances then and these circumstances. Whatever necessity might have justified military action back then has nothing whatsoever to do with the president, personally, ordering the bombing of a small boat with 11 people on it. Trump's own justification was that those unidentified people were merely planning to commit a crime (drug smuggling) sometime in the future somewhere in the U.S.
Ken, do you understand the reason our Constitution at times expressly distinguishes between citizens and any person? The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments expressly protect rights of any "person" (to all process of law that is due) to emphasize that our Constitution doesn't only protect U.S. citizens in the U.S.
What hollow sanctimony you display. Everyone but ignorant fools like you knew who those people were and what they were doing.
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth stated officials “knew exactly who was on that boat, we knew exactly what they were doing, and we knew exactly who they represented, and that was Tren de Aragua,” referring to a Venezuelan criminal group designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization.
Of course, from your Trump Derangement Syndrome armchair, you will make the most sanctimonious claims disputing anything and everything said officially on the record without a shred of evidence to support your claims.
Surfer, if your contention is true ("Everyone" already "knew who those people were and what they were doing"), please tell us their names and their citizenship. Please tell us the facts that you know that establish what they were doing. Please tell us the facts that establish how each such person was connected to Tren de Aragua.
Jack,
Please produce evidence that they were American citizens. Please produce evidence they were fisherman. Please produce evidence that they were tourists heading to Gilligan's Island.
Tell us any fact that you have. I have the statement's of the Unite States Secretary of War on the record. Please cite your facts.
I'll patiently wait until your Trump Derangement Syndrome clears for a few seconds if that is possible.
You have the unsupported claim of a guy whose title you can't even get right, from an administration that's made that same claim about other people countless times and has been found to be wrong.
Surfer, I didn't kill those people or pretend to justify killing them. Trump and Hegseth publicly confessed to killing 11 people on a very small boat a very long distance from the U.S.. So the burden of stating facts and producing evidence proving facts relevant to their defense is on the killers, not the questioners.
Like I said above, you have Trump Derangement Syndrome. Whatever Trump or his sycophants put out, you swallow.
Surfer, a full day ago, you lied. You knowingly misrepresented: "Everyone" already "knew who those people were and what they were doing." I requested that you: Please tell us their names and their citizenship. Please tell us the facts that you know that establish what they were doing. Please tell us the facts that establish how each such person was connected to Tren de Aragua.
You still haven't even attempted to substantiate your lie. So again, I ask you to please provide the information you knowingly misrepresented that "everyone" already "knew" more than a day ago.
Considering the number of times the Trump administration has made a fool of itself claiming that various people are members of Tren de Aragua based on Chicago Bulls jerseys or tattoos, why do you think we should view this as proof of anything?
"Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth stated officials 'knew exactly who was on that boat, we knew exactly what they were doing, and we knew exactly who they represented, and that was Tren de Aragua,' referring to a Venezuelan criminal group designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization."
Why has President Trump, if he believes this tripe, not asked Congress for a declaration of war against Venezuela?
International drug traffickers ae the moral equivalent of pirates.
They're not. Duh
Ken, we're not in church and this isn't a confession. Mere moral equivalence is obviously false equivalence. We're also not merely fishing in open waters. Your contention that "it's open season" on "International drug traffickers" could just as easily be used (by Trump or any foreign government) to pretend to justify murdering American citizens who happen to be on boats (or oil rigs) in international waters just because somebody says they're "International drug traffickers." Do you think that makes any sense? Even if you do, what makes you think such killings are legal? If you think they are legal, then what law do you think authorizes such killings?
Why this concern for where the killings take place?
Surely, a justified termination is a justified termination...
a high speed boat with four large outboards
Do we have a Coast Guard, a Navy? Can they really not capture "a high speed boat with four large outboards in the open sea? "
If not, we have more serious problems.
Why would drug smugglers put 11 people on a boat that only requires a couple to operate? A lot less room for drugs.
And how would a boat of that size effectively make it all the way north to the U.S. from the coast of venezuela? Anybody track that distance?
And why isn't all that information supposedly proving that these were terrible terrorists not actually being made available?
What's, sort of, amusing is the number of commentators on a supposedly libertarian blog who are willing to uncritically accept whatever excuses the government hands them for killing people.
Waiting for Blackman to justify this in 3, 2, 1 ….
Good questions. To which I would add:
1. Is there more boat footage, and higher resolution available?
2. What was the point of releasing the footage? Who is being targeted to be terrified?
3. Who will be terrified, as collateral damage to folks operating boat businesses in that region, or maybe nearer to American shores?
4. What meetings reviewed this tactic before it was used, who attended, and what did they say?
1. Who knows?
2. To terrify drug smugglers, duh.
3. Drug smugglers.
4. Again, who knows?
As a libertarian, I don't think we should have a war on drugs. I think mentally competent adults should be free to take any drug they please. But that doesn't mean I think taking drugs is a good idea, or that I have any liking of the people who sell them.
I'd say the same of punching a hole in your skull and pouring in battery acid.
So, I'm not happy at all about the war on drugs, but generally because of the constitutional violations, the way it drives abusive governmental behavior, and creates a profitable black market that fuels crime against innocent people.
Not because I care for drug smugglers, who can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned.
So you don't like the war on drugs, but will allow some terror tactics outside of US laws of war?
How imperialist of you.
And what a terrible libertarian.
Why do you think, contrary to visual evidence, that they're drug smugglers, and more specifically ll people in a boat off the coast of Venezuela trying to smuggle drugs to the U.S.?
Other than Trump telling you so?
Because I don't start from the assumption that Trump is a monster?
The issue isn't why you didn't start from that assumption, but why you didn't end at that conclusion sometime in the last decade.
Not a "monster"...
But, surely, you know he's a liar, right?
Alternative facts are still facts. Amiright?
Brett, I didn't start with any assumption about Trump except that would (and would be required to) fulfill his repeated promise to "preserve, protect and defend" our "Constitution" to "the best" of his "Ability." From there, I consider how Trump's conduct (or his purported justifications for his conduct) repeatedly and clearly violates our Constitution.
As for being a monster, I think Trump is making himself out to be a monster by repeatedly proving his determination to make our lives much more dangerous for no good reason. Trump has people arrested, detained, shipped off to a foreign prison or murdered for no better reason than his conclusory contention that they're somehow affiliated with a criminal gang or an imaginary invasion of the U.S. by Venezuela. Trump is making it much more likely that the same will happen to Americans who dare to travel abroad. Trump is making it much more likely that Americans will be dragged into one or more wars or conflicts with one or more countries that we just don't want to have to fight.
"Brett, I didn't start with any assumption about Trump except that would (and would be required to) fulfill his repeated promise to "preserve, protect and defend" our "Constitution" to "the best" of his "Ability.""
See, I didn't start with that assumption, not because I wouldn't have liked him to, but instead because no President in my life has actually done that. Why the hell would I expect Trump to break that streak?
The reason I'm not freaking out about his behavior is because I wasn't in denial about how bad his predecessors were, so I don't see him as some huge outlier in that regard.
You think it's bad that he had that ship sank? So do I. Was it bad when Obama had a wedding bombed? How about that pharmaceutical plant Clinton blew up? So far Trump is a piker in terms of Presidential murders.
Brett, what's your point? Are you implying that we should consider our Constitution to be irrelevant because somebody previously essentially did so? That is contrary to the whole reason we have a Constitution that was put into writing and ratified by the People. It is contrary to the reason multitudes of American servicemembers risked (or even gave) their health, happiness, liberty and lives to support and defend our Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Have you ever thanked a servicemember for his or her service? If you ever meant it, then think about why they served and why many sacrificed much. The answer is in 5 U.S.C. 3331. That same oath binds every other employee of the executive branch below the president. And the president isn't bound by that oath only because he's bound by the oath prescribed by Article II (which you and I quoted).
Brett, it's interesting to me that you go to "Obama had a wedding bombed" and the "pharmaceutical plant Clinton blew up." To me, those incidents are far less significant that conduct that got U.S. service members sent into conflicts that amounted to full-fledged war, which We the People delegated only to Congress the power to declare. The conduct that seems far more analogous to Trump's current conduct (lies about how the U.S. is being invaded by Venezuela) is the conduct that got us into the first Gulf War (lies about WMD in Iraq).
IOW, Brett, you refuse to say that you, mighty libertarian that you are, disapprove of killing people on the suspicion that they might be smuggling drugs.
But hey, you don't really like Trump, and are not a cultist.
Forget it.
"Under the principle of "my body, my choice," the government should not be in the business of deciding what drugs adults, at least, are allowed to consume."
While I generally agree that,
1. The federal government lacks any enumerated power basis for the war on drugs,
and,
2. It's a bad policy choice, too.
I'm kind of at a loss for where in the Constitution Somin finds that principle. It's not anywhere in MY copy, anyway.
And it's hard to understate how different US law, federal AND state, would be, if there actually were such a principle in the Constitution. I might like that country a lot more.
But this isn't that country.
Dude made a center-mass libertarian should argument, and you counter with 'hey but that principle isn't mandated by the Constitution.'
The worst libertarian.
Dude purports that it's a constitutional principle.
He did not.
Maybe follow some of his links before you say that.
I do not understand in what way you think that link — to an article not even written by him — purports that "my body my choice" is a "constitutional principle." That link enumerates the various ways that the war on drugs impinges on various constitutional provisions, but does not even hint that drug use itself is constitutionally protected.
There goes Trump, pioneering the use of drones to kill people without a trial.
I AM OUTRAGED!
BINGO!!!
Ah, the rarely seen "Implied 'whatabout' "
You're just salty because Trump devised a unique and groundbreaking way to get around the whole "trial" thingy.
Swede, if you think Trump's murders were "unique" or "groundbreaking" you don't know the history of our country or our Constitution. The reason our Constitution specifies much process of law that is due in criminal cases is because of a very long history of people in power doing what Trump did.
You are incorrect
No previous President has ever made up legal excuses for extrajudicial killings, let alone carried them out. Not a single one. Ever. Trump is totally the first.
Swede, aren't you guilty of false equivalency? It's not merely the killing, the means of killing or who ordered the killing that's relevant. The reason for the killing is crucial. That principle permeates our Constitution, which distinguishes between military action that is justified by necessity (self defense) and punishment of criminal conduct. Here, Trump, Hegseth and Rubio invoked the latter. They chose to make this about imposing a death sentence on 11 (unidentified) people as punishment now for a potential crime by some unidentified people that might happen sometime in the future somewhere in the U.S.
Oh, I don't know.
I think an excellent argument can be made that narcoterrorism requires a military approach. Others can disagree. I'll leave it up to them to fret about why we shouldn't blow traffickers out of the water.
What is "narcoterrorism"?
The next time you buy a computer, get one with "Google" on it.
That disagreement is why we have a thing called "Congress."
("had")
Swede, I would agree that you "don't know." I also would agree that "an excellent argument can be made that narcoterrorism requires a military approach." I'd make that argument myself if it might be relevant.
But what facts--actual facts, not mere conclusory contentions by Trump, Hegseth or Rubio--make you think anyone knows who those people were on that boat, what their citizenship was, and what they were doing? What facts do you know that made you think blowing up that boat and killing those 11 people did anything to protect the U.S. from narcoterrorism?
Well, gosh, Jack.
Are you looking for a note from somebody's mom?
You're right, though. Neither Trump, nor Hegseth, NOR Rubio ran any evidence past me. I didn't even get a courtesy phone call, now that you mention it.
I'll tell you what: if they blow up any other drug runners before clearing it with me, I will be sending a STRONGLY worded letter to my congressman. But, if they do call, and they ask me to check their evidence, I'll share it with you, and together we can decide whether or not they can sink narcoterrorists before they reach our shores. You have my solemn promise.
Swede, you say "if they blow up any other drug runners," so you implied that all 11 people killed were "drug runners." Do you know of any fact (or any evidence of any such fact) that would support your assumption that all 11 people killed were drug runners? Do you know of any fact (or any evidence of any such fact) that would support your assumption that any person killed was a drug runner?
"And it could be the start of an effort to turn the already awful War on Drugs into something more like a real war"
I thought we went down that road decades ago in Latin America.
John, doesn't this seem different to you? Did our president back then issue a proclamation that those nations were waging war on the U.S.? Here, Trump issued a proclamation in mid-March that Venezuela was waging war on the U.S. After that, as far as I know, Congress took no action to authorize Trump to wage war on Venezuela. Neither our Constitution nor Congress authorized Trump and Hegseth to conspire to kill 11 people on a small boat off the coast of Venezuela because someone at some time in the future planned to smuggle drugs somewhere into the U.S.
For that matter, neither our Constitution nor Congress authorized Trump and Hegseth to conspire to kill people or destroy property by bombing Iran.
As far as I can tell, we have a deranged demagogue (Trump) and two sycophants (Hegseth and Rubio) trying their best to drag Americans into one or more wars that the rest us don't want.
I haven't seen any context for the attack. Did the boat get hit with no warning? Did it evade or forcibly resist an attempt by the Coast Guard to board?
The Coast Guard routinely enforces drug laws in the region. Under the Maritime Drug Law Enforcement Act a vessel that does not make a valid claim of nationality can be searched by the Coast Guard. If it is legitimately flying a flag, the country of registration can authorize a search.
Please stop asking for context.
Your betters have determined that you don't need to know any of that. Understand?
John, you're right that we don't have many material facts. That lack of material facts is a big red flag. Hegseth represented that he knew exactly the kind of facts we should be given, including who, exactly, the people were that Hegseth and Trump killed.
But we at least saw how small that boat was and we were at least told approximately where the boat was when it was blown up and those people were killed. Do you think the U.S. Coast Guard has any authority to operate in those waters?
I recognize our constitution was intended to permit the President to do only what the Congrees authorized. But Trump is far from the first President to claim a power to do anything that the Congress doesn’t prohibit. (And sometimes then some as well.) Every modern President has done that.
ReaderY, could you make your point more explicitly? It seems that your point is that prior acts that violated our Constitution somehow make current acts that violate our Constitution not unconstitutional. If that's your point, how does that make any sense? Wasn't the point of going to the trouble of writing and ratifying a written Constitution (instead of continuing under the unwritten constitution of Britain) that our public servants cannot justify violating our Constitution by merely pointing to past violations of our Constitution?
Btw, our Constitution doesn't permit only what Congress authorized. Article I established the duty of Congress to "make all Laws" that are "necessary and proper" for carrying out executive and judicial branch duties, and Article II required all executive branch employees to "take care" that such "Laws" are "faithfully executed." But, in part, to fill in the gaps in legislation and, in part, because legislation cannot address every contingency precisely, the president is required to take all (and only) actions that are necessary and proper to "preserve, protect and defend" our "Constitution" to "the best of [the president's] Ability."
Is that why we were funding one half of the death squads in Latin America throughout the 1980's?
Trump sent Seal Team 6 into North Korea to plant a listening device. The entire thing went sideways within minutes of landing when they noticed a fishing boat near the beach. They killed everyone on board, sunk the bodies to cover their tracks, and fled. Congress was never told.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/05/us/navy-seal-north-korea-trump-2019.html
“Sunk the bodies”
You mean mutilated the corpses. Donald the dove!
I feel like we're into some pre-Church commission times.
Who knows what other imperialist adventurism Trump has us doing? I never thought the US had the level moral high ground it claimed, but I do miss the days when it was at least plausible we weren't doing death squad shit at the whim of our mad king.
We are all Eddie Gallagher now
Don't flatter yourself.
Yes, I saw that in my daily news wrap-up.
It should not get lost in all the other news.
I,ve read throught the Constitution three times now this morning, and still can't find the "my body, my choice" clause.
Did you read the actual post by Prof. Somin even once? Where does it say that this is in the constitution?
No One, I'm not trying to make the argument that "my body, my choice" is a right that is secured by our Constitution. Even so, our Constitution does expressly establish the unconstitutionality of your (implied) argument. And the same part of our Constitution and its history does confirm that something less sweeping than the first argument (just because it's "my body," that means it's 100% "my choice" what to do with it) is secured by our Constitution.
This is super simple and super straightforward. No judge (or lawyer) worthy of the title could read the Ninth Amendment and fail to see that it stated a clear command about how our "Constitution" absolutely "shall not be construed." Our "Constitution" never can "be construed to deny or disparage" any rights "retained by the people" because of any mere "enumeration in the Constitution" of "certain rights."
The reason such language was included in our Constitution is because the people who wrote and ratified it saw your argument being made in their own day. See, e.g., Federalist No. 84 (Hamilton):
"The most considerable of the remaining objections is that the plan of the convention [our Constitution] contains no bill of rights." But such enumeration was considered by many to be unnecessary because the people are sovereign. "Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing; and as they retain every thing they have no need of particular reservations. 'WE, THE PEOPLE of the United States, to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ORDAIN and ESTABLISH this Constitution for the United States of America.' Here is a better recognition of popular rights, than volumes of those aphorisms which make the principal figure in several of our State bills of rights, and which would sound much better in a treatise of ethics than in a constitution of government."
The mere failure to enumerate a right in our Constitution is not and cannot be evidence of the absence of such right.
See also Federalist No. 14 (Madison) emphasizing that our Constitution merely enumerated limited powers that the People delegated to representatives in national government. "In the first place it is to be remembered that the general [national] government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and administering laws. Its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects." So "bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are" (at the very least) "unnecessary" and they "would even be dangerous" because the enumeration of certain rights could be abused to "afford a colorable pretext to claim" that "more" powers were granted to the federal government "than were granted" by our Constitution.
I misspoke. My last sentence above, was not by Madison in Federalist No. 14. It was by Hamilton in No. 84. But Madison expressed similar concerns. See, e.g., Federalist No. 44 re: the danger of attempting to enumerate exceptions to national powers (which is what rights are):
Had the convention . . . attempted to enumerate the particular powers or means not necessary or proper for carrying the general powers into execution, the task would have been no less chimerical; and would have been liable to this further objection, that every defect in the enumeration would have been equivalent to a positive grant of authority. If, to avoid this consequence, they had attempted a partial enumeration of the exceptions, and described the residue by the general terms, NOT NECESSARY OR PROPER, it must have happened that the enumeration would comprehend a few of the excepted powers only; that these would be such as would be least likely to be assumed or tolerated, because the enumeration would of course select such as would be least necessary or proper; and that the unnecessary and improper powers included in the residuum, would be less forcibly excepted, than if no partial enumeration had been made.
Right, while at the same time the failure to enumerate a right in our Constitution is not, and cannot be, evidence of the existence of such a right, either. It just doesn't foreclose the possibility, you still need to demonstrate that such a right actually exists.
The fact that a democratically elected government legislates or acts against a purported right is evidence that society as a whole doesn't view it as a right. But this isn't conclusive evidence, if you can demonstrate that it was formerly regarded as a right, and the violation is recent.
That's why, if you're looking for a 9th amendment right, you look at history: To establish evidence that the act in question has some sustained history of being treated as a right, because the 9th amendment isn't a license to the judiciary to INVENT novel rights contrary to the will of the people. It's just meant to avoid the extinction of existing rights that weren't enumerated.
So, as a general rule, in order to violate a 9th amendment right a government action really needs to be in some way novel, because routine acts of government are evidence that something wasn't viewed as a right.
Brett, doesn't it seem to you that it goes without saying that "the failure to enumerate a right in our Constitution is not, and cannot be, evidence of the existence of such a right"? Why would you even bother to put that in writing?
You might want to think a little more about your contention that "The fact that a democratically elected government legislates or acts against a purported right is evidence that society as a whole doesn't view it as a right." Even before the Constitution was ratified, the Federalist Papers (and many Americans) expressed concerns about majorities abusing their powers to injure minorities. In fact, such abuses by state legislatures were one of the primary reasons Madison, Jefferson and others decided to push to create a nation with a written national Constitution.
Do you know why the 15th Amendment expressly and specifically prohibits discriminating against citizens "on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude" with respect to the right to vote? It's precisely because state legislatures that purportedly were elected democratically chose to violate our Constitution. They did so by usurping the power to enact legislation that discriminated against citizens "on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude" with respect to the right to vote--even after such discrimination was expressly prohibited by Section 1 of the 14th Amendment.
Do you know why the 19th Amendment expressly and specifically prohibits discriminating against citizens "on account of sex" with respect to the right to vote? It's precisely because state legislatures that purportedly were elected democratically chose to violate our Constitution. They did so by usurping the power to enact legislation that discriminated against citizens "on account of sex" with respect to the right to vote--even after such discrimination was expressly prohibited by Section 1 of the 14th Amendment some 50 years earlier.
There is no such thing as "a 9th amendment right." Some rights are enumerated in our Constitution, and some are not.
You've got it completely backwards. The judiciary isn't inventing rights, and the people aren't required to prove our rights. The federal government is required to prove that We the People delegated power to our public servants to make us do something or prevent us from doing something consistent with the purposes stated in the Preamble. That was something that Hamilton explained expressly in Federalist No. 84:
"The most considerable of the remaining objections is that the plan of the convention [our Constitution] contains no bill of rights." But ANY enumeration of our rights was considered by many to be unnecessary because the people are sovereign.
"Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing; and as they retain every thing they have no need of particular reservations. 'WE, THE PEOPLE of the United States, to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ORDAIN and ESTABLISH this Constitution for the United States of America.' Here is a better recognition of popular rights, than volumes of those aphorisms which make the principal figure in several of our State bills of rights, and which would sound much better in a treatise of ethics than in a constitution of government."
For hundreds of years, the Preamble, the first sentences of Articles I, II and III and Amendment X and copious SCOTUS precedent correctly emphasized that the powers of federal government are limited to those that were delegated by the People to our federal public servants solely for the purposes stated in the Preamble.
Brett, do you know why Article I, Section 10 and Amendment XIV prohibit states from engaging in particular conduct? It's precisely because temporary majorities historically abused the machinery of government to do those very things to violate the rights and privileges and immunities of US citizens.
We do not have mob rule in America. We don't have majority rule in America. We have a Constitution that is designed, in significant part, to limit the power and thwart the will of the majority who (invariably) will use their political power to injure some minority or some individuals. That's literally the point of stating some rights in the Constitution (and requiring judges to act to secure such rights). That's also the precise point of securing the tenure of federal judges (during good behavior) and their salaries. It is to insulate them from temporary majorities who will want to violate the rights of minorities or individuals.
Brett, regarding your view of the 9th Amendment, consider the following.
James Madison (speaking to the First Congress on Aug. 15, 1789) highlighted an important reason that the rights enumerated in our Constitution were few: "if we confine ourselves to an enumeration of simple acknowledged principles, the ratification will meet with but little difficulty. Amendments of a doubtful nature will have a tendency to prejudice the whole system." A short enumeration was designed to accomplish two goals: (1) facilitate prompt ratification and (2) satisfy the people who demanded that our Constitution include a bill of rights.
James Iredell spoke at the North Carolina Ratification Convention in 1788 (regarding the original Constitution) (and he subsequently sat on the first SCOTUS). At the 1788 NC convention Iredell emphasized "it would be impossible to enumerate every [right]. Let anyone make what collection or enumeration of rights he pleases, I will immediately mention twenty or thirty more rights not contained in it."
Alexander Hamilton previously had emphasized (contrary to pretenses in some recent SCOTUS decisions), we cannot divine the truth about our rights by merely rummaging through old parchments and papers. We must look to the profound self-evident truths of human nature:
The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.
I have said many times, and I am sure Rfessr Smin des not like it, that our current constitutional regime leaves fetuses and foreigners outside US territory in an essentially equivalent constitutional position. Both can be killed upon demand s far as the constitution is concerned, but after Dobbs the constitution permits legislatures to institute protections for both.
Congress in fact has wide authority over how we deal with foreigners including the power to constrain the President. However, through a combination of broad delegations and inaction, Congress has let the Executive usurp that authority to the point where Congress’ plenary power has sometimes seemed as vestigial as intrastate commerce, the electoral college, the legal tender clause, etc.
Nonetheless, Congress could pass a law tomorrow prohibiting the President from doing this. But it would have to be prepared to enforce such a law through impeachment, although it culd impose liability on officers wh carry out such orders.
ReaderY, it's manifestly untrue that "our current constitutional regime leaves fetuses and foreigners outside US territory in an essentially equivalent constitutional position. Both can be killed upon demand as far as the constitution is concerned." Nothing in our Constitution supports either assertion, and both assertions are clearly contrary to our Constitution.
For starters, nothing in our Constitution authorizes anyone to kill (or to order anyone to kill) any other person anywhere "upon demand." Killing people on the demand of Trump or Hegseth is not any part of our Constitution. Every person who was delegated the official power to kill anyone swore to (and must) use such power solely to "support" our "Constitution" (Article VI) or "support and defend" our "Constitution" against "all enemies, foreign and domestic" (5 U.S.C. 3331).
Article I established the duty of Congress to "make all Laws" that are "necessary and proper" for carrying out executive and judicial branch duties, and Article II required all executive branch employees to "take care" that such "Laws" are "faithfully executed." But, in part, to fill in the gaps in legislation and, in part, because legislation cannot address every contingency precisely, the president is required to take all (and only) actions that are necessary and proper to "preserve, protect and defend" our "Constitution" to "the best of [the president's] Ability."
Clearly, the president's powers clearly are not limited only by laws enacted by Congress. The president's powers are limited, first and foremost, by the limits of the powers that the People vested in the president by our Constitution. In fact, that's why the SCOTUS majority's pretense (in Trump v. US) that six judges had the power to grant a president immunity from prosecution was so frivolous as to be absurd. The People clearly did not (and clearly could not) vest in the president the power to engage in conduct that Congress made criminal (to protect us from our public servants).
And because of the plain text of our Constitution quoted above (and more) the SCOTUS majority's pretense (in Trump v. US) that any judge had the power to declare a president's knowing violation of our Constitution constituted an "official" or "core" duty was so frivolous as to be absurd.
You seem to have missed about 235 years of Supreme Court decisions that have added a ton of color to the text of the Constitution. That case law is very much a part of the corpus of Constitutional law. I suggest going through those decisions to see what the actual state of Constitutional law is. It is very different from your read of the text of the document itself. You might be right about what the law should be based on your reading of the Constitution. But that sure as hell isn't the actual law of the land.
DJK, first, show me anything that says that our Constitution vested in any federal public servant the power to change our Constitution without complying with our Constitution regarding how it can be amended. You cannot do so because our Constitution did not do so. As Article VI emphasized, the first, foremost and constant duty of every public servant (state and federal) was and is to "support" our "Constitution" because it is the first and foremost among "the supreme Law of the Land."
Second, show us something relevant in that 235 years of SCOTUS decisions that you think changes what I showed you about our Constitution.
Keep in mind the reason we have a Constitution that was written and ratified by the People. It was primarily so that mere public servants would not presume or pretend to have the power to change it. That's why our Constitution was reduced to writing and that's also why it was ratified by the People. Keep in mind also that our Constitution (and the people who wrote and ratified it) expressly rejected the "the rule of law" in Britain, i.e., that Parliament was supreme so the law was whatever Parliament said it was. The people who fought in the Revolutionary War or who wrote or ratified our Constitution did not intend to (and they did not de facto or de jure) merely empower a handful of SCOTUS judges to take the place of Parliament.
Bearing in mind the foregoing, it's also well worth keeping in mind the following about how to construe our Constitution:
"The Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning; where the intention is clear there is no room for construction and no excuse for interpolation or addition." United States v. Sprague, 282 U.S. 716, 731-732 (1931).
Another thing worth bearing in mind is that the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution definitely did not want to be dragged into foreign wars for no good reason. See, e.g., President Washington's Neutrality Proclamation and his Farewell Address.
No, Parliament was not the supreme law with unilateral authority in Britain. Are you utterly ignorant of the British eighteenth century concept of the "King in Parliament."
The eighteenth-century British concept of the King in Parliament referred to the constitutional principle that the sovereign and the two houses of Parliament together constituted the supreme legislative authority of the British state.
The delegates who wrote the Constitution in Philadelphia in the summer of 1787 hardly represented the people since there was not a common craftsman or farmer among them. The delegates certainly did not believe the people should constitute the voice of government and with that in mind they crafted a government where the people's voice was only expressed in the lower chamber of the legislative branch. The upper chamber expressed the power of state legislators. The executive expressed the power of the states themselves. SCOTUS has no clear definition of its power in the original constitution. John Marshall shaped it.
You erroneously put forth the twentieth century reality of Parliament on the eighteenth century reality.
Surfer, you should devote a lot more thought (and research) than you did to what you wrote.
Did you even pay attention to your own words? The "King in Parliament" is part of Parliament. In a similar manner, our president has the power to support or oppose legislation and the Vice President is the President of the Senate. Even so, it is in Congress that the People vested the power to make all law. See Art. I, Section 1. That power was modeled after Parliament except that the executive was separated from the legislative and the Constitution was made "the supreme law of the land" governing all public servants, and all public servants are required "to support" our "Constitution" in all official conduct.
Parliament was (and still is) supreme. Who leads the UK? Is it the King or the PM? Who makes the law in the UK? The primary point of the English Bill of Rights of 1689 was to establish the supremacy of Parliament.
The Declaratory Act of 1766 declared the supreme power of Parliament to make legislation governing the American colonies "in all cases whatsoever." The American Revolution was a direct rejection of that "rule of law." That is the reason our 1776 Declaration, para. 2, declared the right and duty of the People to institute government by the "consent of the governed." That's also the reason our Constitution was made "the supreme law of the land" governing all public servants, and all public servants are required "to support" our "Constitution" in all official conduct. That also is the reason the people demanded a bill of rights and, as a result, we got more rights enumerated in our Constitution.
Your last full paragraph is irrelevant or outright false. For example, the first sentence is clearly false. Representative government doesn't mean that the representatives must have held the same jobs as the people they represent. That would make no sense at all. The second sentence also is false. The Constitution was amended pretty promptly to make Senators directly elected by the people. Moreover, the First Amendment expressly secures the right of the people to express our opinions on our self-government 24/7/365, just like we do today. Do you really think "the executive expressed the power of the states"? If so, what makes you think that? You last sentence about SCOTUS also is clearly false. See Art. III, Section 2.
Surfer, if you think Parliament wasn't supreme back then, explain how it happened that Parliament beheaded one king (Charles I) in 1649 and then in 1689 Parliament deposed his son (King James II) and put William III and Mary II on the throne. If you think Parliament wasn't supreme, then explain the meaning of the Coronation Oath Act of 1688 requiring monarchs to "promise and swear to govern [ ] according to the statutes in parliament agreed on, and the laws and customs of the same."
If you think Parliament wasn't supreme, then how could the English Bill of Rights declare the following regarding the king's actions?
"the pretended power of suspending the laws or the execution of laws by regal authority without consent of Parliament is illegal;"
"the pretended power of dispensing with laws or the execution of laws by regal authority, as it hath been assumed and exercised of late, is illegal;"
"levying money for or to the use of the Crown by pretence of prerogative, without grant of Parliament, for longer time, or in other manner than the same is or shall be granted, is illegal;"
"the raising or keeping a standing army within the kingdom in time of peace, unless it be with consent of Parliament, is against law;"
"the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament;"
"it is the right of the subjects to petition the king, and all commitments and prosecutions for such petitioning are illegal."
DJK, you might consider the opinion of SCOTUS in Marbury v. Madison. The primary point made in that opinion is that our Constitution is the "paramount" law. It binds all public servants in all official conduct, so even if all 3 branches of federal government conspire (as they did) to make and implement a law that violates our Constitution, they all merely managed to violate our Constitution and all their conduct is "void."
"Both can be killed upon demand so far as the constitution is concerned."
Opposition to our current constitutional doctrine is fine, and it has, over the years, led to new constitutional doctrine. We know this, but just to be clear. There is a role for that sort of thing as long, as he generally does ("in my view" etc.), being upfront about doing so.
The core issue here is not the constitutional rights of foreigners not to be killed outside of U.S. jurisdiction without due process. It is the power of the executive to do certain things, including pursuant to international law.
(See the linked Just Security piece or Charlie Savage's NYT analysis.)
The fact that these things are not enforced properly is duly noted. Likewise, police mistreatment of a suspect in a holding cell often is done with impunity. It still should be flagged.
Reference is made to "can be killed upon demand." How so? The executive doesn't have the inherent power to do so willy-nilly.
Again, as shown by multiple impeachments, etc., he might have the raw power to do so. Congress passing a law won't change that.
One comment suggests the possibility that an American citizen could have been on board.
The Slaughterhouse Cases noted a "privilege of a citizen of the United States is to demand the care and protection of the Federal government over his life, liberty, and property when on the high seas or within the jurisdiction of a foreign government."
That very well is something to consider. Overall, the U.S., under the Constitution and international law, sets forth certain rules regarding the usage of force, here and abroad.
The rules, as well as the statutes and other laws passed to enforce them, will protect foreigners in certain respects.
I entirely disagree with Ilya Somin's view of drugs and the law, but let's posit for the sake of discussion about lawful powers, a few assumptions:
1. That the boat was known to the United States to be carrying illegal drugs;
2. That it was bound to the United States for the purpose of smuggling into the country; and
3. That it was being run by Tren de Aragua, which is now officially designated a "terrorist organization" under US law.
Questions:
1. Can the US interdict the boat, seize its cargo, and arrest its crew, even while in international waters?
2. Can it be destroyed, and be treated as a hostile force, given its terrorist designation?
3. What would distinguish this circumstance from other lethal strikes, going back over twenty years, on designated terror organizations or personnel?
4. Would the legal authority and process be required to be different if there were Americans involved (the Anwar al-Awlaki scenario)?
5. Would the legal authority and process be required to be different if the incident occurred in American waters?
6. Would the legal authority be different if Congress had authorized action against TdA (either through and AUMF or Letters of Marque or Reprisal)?
7. Do any of the extant AUMFs now apply to TdA because it has been designated as a terrorist organization?
Being designated a terrorist organization by the US does not have any meaning in international law. They were drug smuggles, not terrorists.
"International law" has no meaning, you mean.
William,
Maybe you can answer some of your own questions by considering the plain meaning of some of the plain text of our Constitution. "The Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning; where the intention is clear there is no room for construction and no excuse for interpolation or addition." United States v. Sprague, 282 U.S. 716, 731-732 (1931).
The Preamble emphasized that "We the People" did "ordain and establish" our "Constitution" to "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves."
Article VI emphasized that, first and foremost, our "Constitution" and then federal "Laws" made "in pursuance" of our Constitution and treaties are the "supreme Law of the Land," and the first, foremost and constant duty of all state and federal legislators and "all executive and judicial Officers" is "to support" our "Constitution."
Article II emphasized that the duties of the president are to "take Care that the Laws" enacted or approved by Congress are "faithfully executed" and otherwise to "preserve, protect and defend" our "Constitution" to "the best of [the president's] Ability." No matter what any law enacted by Congress says, the president's foremost duty always in all official conduct is to "preserve, protect and defend" our "Constitution" to "the best of [the president's] Ability." So the question to ask is what facts establish that any presidential action did or would serve to "preserve, protect and defend" our "Constitution" to "the best of [the president's] Ability."
It's not even possible to answer that question by citing to some merely "designation," e.g., a designation of a substance as an illegal drug or a designation of an organization as a terrorist organization. A designation is a mere label. No mere label (including "president" or "secretary of war") can actually justify violating our Constitution.
William, consider also that the Fifth Amendment expressly protects rights of any "person" to all process of law that is due precisely to emphasize that our Constitution doesn't only protect U.S. citizens or people in the U.S. For the same reason, Article VI emphasizes that "treaties" are part of "the supreme Law of the Land."
Think about where and against whom Americans typically fight wars. It's overseas against people who typically aren't U.S. citizens. Even so, those people are protected by our Constitution and our laws and treaties. Every soldier (like every other employee of the executive or judicial branches) promised not only to "support and defend" our "Constitution" against "all enemies, foreign and domestic," but also to "bear true faith and allegiance to" our Constitution. That means that even in the heat of battle under even the most desperate circumstances, Americans cannot do some things even to save their own lives or even to ensure the success of their (subordinate) mission. The first, foremost and constant duty of every public servant in all official conduct is (as Article VI emphasized) "to support" our "Constitution," even if doing so means dying.
Jack, I understand your points, above. And certainly agree that persons accused of crimes are absolutely entitled to due process if under the jurisdiction of the United States, or anywhere in the world if a US citizen dealing with the authority of the United States. This, to my interpretation of the Constitution, does NOT include foreign States, organizations, or persons NOT under the jurisdiction of the United States. The Constitution provides power to the president, as C-in-C, to repel foreign invaders/violent incursions at any time, even without Congressional authorization, and certainly to commit forces and take lethal action when there is congressional authorization. I think there is no justification whatsoever for using force against unarmed, unorganized foreigners who are illegally trying to enter the US, whether they are bringing contraband or not. However, if we posit that the people on the boat were known to be armed, and members of a organized designated terrorist organization (and yes, that formal designation is part of a statute,) then the equation changes. For example, while this is not the circumstance in the instant case, Congress could exercise its express constitutional power to grant letters of marque and reprisal to private parties who could legitimately use force on land and sea against TdA members who are foreign nationals anywhere in the world, and develop rules for the treatment of any contraband recovered from them. So, my logic is that if Congress can authorize Eric Prince and Blackwater to act in that manner, with no more due process than any other war, then it certainly is within the power of the government generally. The question, legally, then becomes "has such power been granted to a president through any existing statutes or other Acts of Congress, and/or is such power inherent in Article II?" If the answer to both is "no," then it is an illegitimate action. But if the answer to either is "yes," then -- like all deaths in authorized military actions -- due process is the wrong lens to apply.
William, you should reconsider some crucial first principles. No power of Congress (or executive or judicial officers) in our Constitution is absolute. The mere power of Congress to do anything (including grant letters of marque and reprisal) is not dispositive, nor is any such power absolute. Any exercise of power by any public servant is subject to "the supreme Law of the Land" and it must be "to support" our "Constitution."
Article I expressly emphasized that all exercises of power by Congress must be "necessary" for and "proper" to the purposes of our Constitution. The same is pretty nearly true of every exercise of power by any federal public servant in the executive and judicial departments. Article VI emphasized that all federal law must be "in pursuance" of our Constitution. The same is true of the exercise of any power delegated to any federal public servant by our Constitution. Article VI also emphasized that "treaties" (with foreign nations) are included in "the supreme Law of the Land." So it is unconstitutional to presume or pretend that we don't need to know the citizenship of the people being killed by Americans to determine the limits of the powers of Americans to kill other nations' citizens. It's unconstitutional to presume or pretend that Congress or the president or any court could empower any public servant to violate any relevant treaty (except to the extent that necessity establishes that the treaty is contrary to our Constitution).
William, it's not true that "if we posit that the people on the boat were known to be armed, and members of a organized designated terrorist organization" as "part of a statute" "then the equation changes." A mere designation of an organization and the mere fact that someone on a small boat has some kind of firearm completely outside U.S. jurisdiction cannot change anything even slightly with respect to the requirements of our Constitution.
Those people in that boat were very far from any U.S. property or person that they could threaten. Necessity and proportionality are essential. The people who wrote and ratified our Constitution believed that every nation and person had a fundamental right to self-preservation. Invoking self-defense or self-preservation as a justification requires a prior determination that force is actually necessary. Moreover, the use of force must be rationally related to the extent of force necessary to mitigate the threat.
Letters of marque or reprisal as they were issued and used in the 1700's are an extremely poor analogy to the proper use of force that our Constitution permits with the benefit of today's resources. Letters of marque or reprisal as they were issued and used in the 1700's are even worse as a legal justification for unilateral action today by anyone purportedly representing the U.S. to attack or kill people.
William, your allusion to "no more due process than any other war" makes me think you know very little about the due process of law that governs war. For good reason, our Armed Forces often have lawyers reviewing their plans or actions. And servicemembers get prosecuted for violating the law of war (even when they're ordered to do so).
Jack, two replies:
1. There is no requirement on the Constitution for necessity or proportionality. There is not even a requirement for a casus belli. Congress can declare war on any nation, or authorize force against any foreign group, at any time, for any or no reason. Your first paragraph suggests that Congress could not declare war against Venezuela (or Vanuatu, or any other nation on Earth.) That power is plenary and unreviewable. I am not suggesting that to do so would be moral, or even good policy, merely that it is legal.
2. With respect to "due process in war," there are indeed Rules of Engagement, and statutes such as the UCMJ, that regulate the manner in which United States Armed Forces may conduct war. Those laws and ROE in no way resemble, for those targeted by military force, due process rights as conceived under the 5th Amendment for those persons, whether foreign or citizens, under the jurisdiction of the United States.
I'll add a third point. You might reference treaties or notions of "international law" (a misnomer if ever there was one.) Treaties under the Constitution have the force of federal law, and no treaty has the power to amend the Constitution, so -- for example -- the UN Charter does not amend our Constitution to remove Congress's power to declare war. It's just a law, with no more force than any other federal law, and like the federal National Maximum Speed Limit Law of the 1970s, it can simply be overridden by a subsequent Act of Congress.
All of that said, the above does not address whether Trump had the legitimate power to act as he did. I think the answer is conditional; if I understand you correctly, you do not.
William, you need to research our Constitution much more. You're clearly very wrong about the reason the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution (or any relevant amendment) did so. It clearly was not to give Congress the power that Parliament or the English king had to drag the People into wars that are not for any purpose stated in the Preamble.
For good reason, the Preamble expressly spoke of using military power for a particular purpose: "common defence." The overarching purpose of our Constitution and the creation of a nation and national government was to "secure Justice," and "promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves." It was not to give our public servants the power to get us killed or wreck our welfare for no good reason. That even is why military appropriations cannot last more than 2 years.
You also need to research much more the law governing military action. At the very least, you might want to read the Just Security article cited above.
Your contentions about treaties and our Constitution make no sense. Of course, a treaty cannot alter our Constitution. That truism does nothing to diminish the fact that federal law and treaties most certainly can and do limit exercises of power by our public servants. That's the whole point of saying that federal laws and treaties are part of the supreme law of the land.
William, it is not even possible that any "power" vested in any public servant by our Constitution is "plenary" or "unreviewable." It makes absolutely no sense to even assert any such thing. Such absolute power is what the American Revolution (including the 1776 Declaration, the Revolutionary War, the original Constitution and the Bill of Rights) was meant to prevent.
Our Constitution made the People sovereign, but it also prevented even the People from exercising absolute power. That's the point of structural restraints like federalism, separation of powers, a very large republic, fairly frequent elections, but elections with varying terms, and with prescribed ratios for representatives in Congress.
Hundreds of years of SCOTUS decisions have emphasized that the power of the general or national or federal government is limited. The whole point of elections and securing First Amendment rights and freedoms is that actions by our public servants are subject to our own review, and their power is subject to our power. Our public servants are put in their positions solely "to support" our "Constitution." How do you still not understand that?
Structural restraints on the power of all public servants (and on the influence of People) also include Article VI (establishing the supremacy of the supreme law of the land and the fact that every public servant is not only "bound" by our Constitution but also is "bound" to "support" our Constitution).
Such structural restraints also include the fact that judges are insulated from other parts of government, as well as from the whims and caprice of the People by (1) being secure in their positions "during good behaviour," (2) having their salaries secure, and (3) being required to be independent of everything except the legal authorities required or permitted by our Constitution. Such structural restraints also include requirements (in criminal cases) for indictment by a grand jury, a public trial, conviction by an impartial jury (not a judge) and due process of law.
It makes no sense whatsoever to think anyone--including the president and even together with Congress--can circumvent all the foregoing by simply killing people in international waters or on foreign soil. It is worth keeping in mind that the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution were, to a very great extent, a seafaring people. They thought a lot about things like smuggling, piracy and naval warfare. Nobody--and I mean literally nobody--thought our government should be free to kill people just because they happened to be out on the open water or otherwise beyond our borders.
Jack, we clearly have very different interpretations of the Constitution. When I say a power is "unreviewable," I mean precisely that. No power in the Constitution -- absent an amendment that changes the Constitution -- can override a presidential pardon, or override a congressional declaration of war, or take away a State's equal representation in the Senate, as just three examples. Your claim that war can only be constitutional in self-defense is, shall we say, not strongly supported by history nor legal precedent. Most of what you say is a moral, rather than a legal, pleading. And while I might agree or disagree with you in any particular circumstance of the exercise of power, I believe you are comprehensively mistaken about the legal status and structure of the Constitution. And by the way, the supremacy clause, and all Supreme Court precedent since Marbury vs Madison makes clear that only the Constitution is supreme, and then at the next level down of authority are federal laws (which can only be applied to federal areas of power) and the next level down are State constitutions and laws, the latter having no force if they conflict with the former. So, again, the Congress has plenary, unreviewable power (meaning no one in the government can stop or override it) to declare war, and Congress is not beholden to your, or my, or anyone else's sensibilities regarding how it uses that power.
William, to the best of my ability to ascertain (from your own writing), you have almost no real grasp of how our Constitution was designed to work or how it actually works. You clearly do not understand the interplay between the three legal authorities that constitute the supreme law of the land (the Constitution, federal laws and treaties). If you're unwilling to be helped, I can't help you.
Do you understand the meaning of the word "plenary"? It means absolute or unqualified. No public servant has absolute or unqualified power under our Constitution. No matter how many times you or anyone else says it, it's false. I challenge you to show me anything in our Constitution that supports your misrepresentation that any public servant has plenary power in any area.
The reason Article I used the words "necessary and proper" at the end of Section 8 was because that qualification already was implicit in the exercise of every enumerated power. Congress has the power and the duty to "make all laws" that are "necessary and proper" to support our Constitution. That includes the power to regulate even presidential pardons and even declarations of war by Congress. It's absurd to contend or imply otherwise.
The number of Senators prescribed by our Constitution is in no way analogous to the exercise of any power by any public servant. Of course, the former cannot be changed except by constitutional amendment.
William, don't try to redefine the word "plenary." Try thinking seriously about the real significance of the Supremacy Clause and the real significance of the oaths of office of every federal public servant.
See Article II for the president's oath. See Article VI, clause 3 regarding the oath of every other public servant (state and federal).
For Congress, see also https://oaths.us/senate-oath-of-office/.
For employees of the executive and judicial departments other than the president, see 5 U.S.C. 3331. For all federal judges, see also 28 U.S.C. 453.
For attorneys (judicial officers) who are merely admitted to practice before federal courts see https://www.uscourts.gov/forms-rules/forms/attorney-oath-admission
Jack, again, you're mistaken. The authority of the federal government in foreign affairs is "plenary," meaning "unqualified and absolute." That is what sovereignty means. So, when Congress declared war on Bulgaria, Hungary, and Romania (which was the last time Congress formally declared war) there was no one in any position whatsoever that could overrule that judgment. Not the president, not the Supreme Court, and not the States, individually or collectively. And the oath to "support" the Constitution does NOT mean that Congress cannot do that, but rather that those who take their respective oaths acknowledge that ONLY Congress can. So, we can agree that the War Powers Act is NOT consistent with the Constitution, but NOT that Congress is constrained by the Constitution in its war declaratory power in any way whatsoever. And, if you choose to acknowledge the Supreme Court's power to assess whether laws are consistent with the Constitution, you can find unlimited support through the centuries for what I just described. As for the founding generation and their understanding of that power, I recommend to you the issue that arose in the early republic with respect whether to go war with England vs going to war with France, or the Barbary pirates, or the endless Indian wars. And the following generation and the war with Mexico...and the endless Indian wars, again. Or the war with Spain. Or the endless incursions in Central America. And all of that is before we even get to the 20th century, including the extremely active "post-war" era. By the way, were Hiroshima and Nagasaki "proportional"? The fire bombing of Dresden? Did the constitution amendments since WWII (22 through 27) in any way amend the Congress's power with respect to war?
>In addition, it is not even clear these people were drug traffickers at all (they might have been migrants fleeing Venezuela's horrible socialist dictatorship).
They voted it in. And if most of the illegal Venezuelans weren't criminals and/or spending years on welfare . . .
Why can a mother kill a clump of cells at will but a President can not?