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Documenting Denial: A Record of Rejection Faced by Gay Couples
Over the past two decades, scores of business owners across the nation have sought to refuse services for same-sex weddings, an SMU Law School study finds
Of course you know about the website designer who didn't want to create sites for gay weddings. You probably remember the Colorado baker who declined to make a custom wedding cake for a gay couple. Perhaps you even recall the New Mexico photographers who refused to take pictures of a lesbian commitment ceremony.
But did you know about the stylist in Tennessee who refused to cut hair or apply makeup to the women in a wedding party for two men? Or the instructor in Missouri who spurned two grooms seeking dance lessons for their ceremony because it "would make everyone else in the room uncomfortable"? It's unlikely you've heard about the North Carolina trolley company that turned down, on religious grounds, a request to transport a gay couple to their wedding ceremony in a remote mountainous location.
For the past five years, with the invaluable help of my research assistants at SMU Dedman School of Law, I've been collecting all publicly known stories of same-sex couples who were denied wedding goods or services by private business owners that object to gay marriage. The compendium of cases is collected in a new website called, Documenting Denial: A Record of Wedding Services Denied to Same-Sex Couples Since 2004. As best I can tell, this is the first published attempt to compile such a record.
I. What is the Project?
On the website, the project is described as follows:
In 2023, the Supreme Court of the United States held in 303 Creative v. Elenis that Colorado could not compel a website designer to create wedding websites for same-sex couples. The 6-3 majority reasoned that forcing a designer to create messages with which she disagrees would violate her First Amendment right to freedom of speech. The decision marked the first time the Court ruled that a for-profit business in the public marketplace could be exempt from the requirement to serve customers protected from discrimination by state law.
Twenty years earlier, in Goodridge v. Department of Public Health (2003), the Massachusetts state supreme court became the first in the country to declare laws against same-sex marriage unconstitutional. By 2004, the first official marriage licenses in the United States were being issued to gay and lesbian couples. Other states followed, although most states resisted. In Obergefell v. Hodges (2015), the Supreme Court recognized a federal constitutional right of same-sex couples to wed. Today, the number of same-sex marriages in the U.S. approaches one million.
Some of these couples have faced rejection from vendors when seeking goods and services related to their weddings or commitment ceremonies. Vendors have declined flowers, photography, wedding cakes, venues, tailoring, and more based on their personal and religious beliefs that marriage should not include same-sex couples.
The scope of the project
Our project is an attempt to document all publicly known examples of these denials. By "publicly known," we mean those denials accessible to the public through online media sources and public records of litigation. Our list also includes preemptive lawsuits filed by business owners seeking to establish or to clarify their right to refuse goods and services. In almost every instance we've listed, it is undisputed that a wedding-related service or good was actually denied. The claimed basis for the denial, the vendor's objection to same-sex marriage, is also almost always undisputed.
The record covers the period since 2004, the year that the first legal same-sex marriages began in the United States. It includes only denials by vendors in the business of providing such goods or services, not denials by judges or religious leaders refusing to officiate or by state officials refusing to issue marriage licenses. The record compiled here includes both denials that resulted in litigation and those that did not.
As part of the record, we want readers to know the who, what, where, when, and why of these denials. Accordingly, we offer a factual summary of the denial, the names of the parties involved on both sides, the locations and dates of each controversy, the particular product or service involved, whether litigation ensued, and the outcome. Links to relevant public records, like newspaper accounts and court opinions, are provided.
For a more visual experience of the scope and extent of the record, we have prepared a map showing the spread of denials across the nation and across the decades.
Finally, we invite readers to send us corrections and additions.
In essence, there are two ways to view the compilation of denial cases. One is by going to a chart (which we call the "Record") that gives detailed information about each case: a synopsis of the facts, the location and date of the denial or initial lawsuit filing, the type of wedding service or good involved, the names of the parties (both customers and business owners), the reason for the denial (religious, personal, or other), information about subsequent litigation (if any), and links to news articles or court opinions about the case. A color-coding scheme allows you to see quickly which of the listed denials resulted in litigation (pink), which of the denials resulted in no litigation (green), and which involved pre-enforcement actions by businesses where no actual denial occurred (blue).
The other way to view the compilation of cases is to peruse an interactive Map that allows you to click on the various locations in the country or to scroll through the cases chronologically. The Map is a good way to get an overview of the cases. You can then go the Record to find more detailed information about each case.
II. What We Found
In all, since Massachusetts became the first state to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples in 2004, we found 64 cases of private businesses declining, or seeking to decline, goods or services for gay weddings or similar events (e.g., a commitment ceremony or a renewal of vows). Ten of those 64 cases involved businesses filing preemptive lawsuits to clarify or establish their legal right to refuse such services, although no actual denial had yet occurred.
Thus, we found 54 denials that have actually occurred since 2004 ("actual denial cases"). In 52 of the 54 cases, there was apparently no dispute between the customers and the business about whether there was a denial or about whether the basis for the denial was an objection to same-sex marriage.
As you'll see from the Map, the cases are spread out geographically. They stretch from east to west, north to south, and everywhere in between. They appear in big cities, small towns, and rural areas. The first case we could find in the public record--the New Mexico photographers who refused to take pictures of a lesbian couple's commitment ceremony--arose in 2006. The most recent came in November 2024. There are no significant trends in the frequency of denials over time. Four cases have arisen since the Supreme Court's decision in 303 Creative v. Elenis (2023). Only one of those is being litigated.
Of the 54 actual denial cases, 39 (72%) involved no lawsuit. In most of these 39 unlitigated cases, there was no relevant legal protection for same-sex couples available in the particular jurisdiction. Fifteen actual denial cases (28%) resulted in litigation.
What types of good or services have been the subject of these denials? By far the most common site for disputes has been the wedding venues themselves: 26 of the 64 overall cases (41%) have involved business owners refusing to rent their spaces for same-sex weddings. This is followed by disputes with wedding cake bakers (10), photographers (7), videographers (4), dressmakers and tuxedo makers (4), florists (2), caterers (2), wedding planners (2), and one each for a newspaper refusing same-sex wedding announcements, a calligrapher, a hairstylist, a dance instructor, a trolley operator, and the celebrated website designer who was the subject of 303 Creative.
What was the stated basis for denying wedding services to same-sex couples? The vast majority of business owners, 54 out of 64 overall cases (84%), cited religious beliefs as their primary objection to same-sex marriage. Most of these religious objectors were self-described Christians. The remaining ten business owners characterized their opposition as personal or legal, or did not specify a reason.
III. Why the Record Matters
Here's what we said on this topic at the Documenting Denials website:
Marriage is an important milestone in a person's life. It helps cement relationships, meets needs, and reflects religious and personal values. Its meaning matters to almost everyone—the couple, their children, their families, their friends, their faiths, and their societies. Participating in and supporting the wedding itself is an act loaded with significance for everyone.
It's no wonder that people on both sides have claimed strong interests for their respective positions. Same-sex couples want equal access to wedding services in the open marketplace and equal treatment from the vendors they select. They also do not want to be insulted at this uniquely sensitive and anxiety-laden time. Wedding vendors with religious or other objections to same-sex marriage want to run their businesses without violating their consciences and want to preserve their freedoms of speech and religion.
Knowing the number, locations, dates, and outcomes of actual denials helps to inform the debate about the significance and extent of the claims on each side. The record will help inform the public, attorneys, judges, and scholars about the kinds of services that are most often denied.
From the exchange of rings to the tossing of the bouquet, symbolism pervades almost every aspect of a wedding. But these are usually thought of as the expressions of the couple, not of the ringmaker or the florist. The Supreme Court declared in 303 Creative that, at least in some cases, providing the good or service amounts to expression by the business, which cannot be compelled by state law. Recounting the circumstances and context of actual cases may help sharpen the questions and settle the answers of what services or goods are sufficiently part of the wedding vendor's own expression to merit constitutional protection.
We shouldn't lose sight of the real people involved in these cases. The stakes were high for the couples who were denied services. Even if they obtained the services elsewhere--and it appears that in all or almost all cases they did--they bore the anxiety, time, and expense of having to do so. And they were figuratively slapped in the face at what should have been a joyous time in their lives.
The stakes were also high in these cases for the objecting business owners. They had the choice of either serving the weddings and foregoing their convictions or denying the services and dealing with the fallout. Public pressure forced some of them out of business. Others had to defend themselves in court, and some of these ended up losing. Even if they prevailed, courts dragged out their cases. One Oregon baker who declined a wedding cake for a lesbian couple in January 2013 (when Barack Obama was beginning his second term) is still awaiting final word from the Oregon courts more than 12 years later. Even then the case will probably go back to the U.S. Supreme Court for possible review a second time. It's now zombie litigation: the bakery closed in 2016.
At the same time, it's important to keep the record in perspective. We found 54 actual denial cases over a 20-year time span, fewer than three per year on average. That may seem like a lot compared to the mere handful of cases most people have heard about. But consider that, at the upper range, Gallup estimated there were 930,000 same-sex marriages in the U.S. as of June 2025. At the lower end of the range, the Williams Institute at UCLA estimated there were 823,000 married same-sex couples in the United States as of June 2025.
Given those numbers, it's a safe bet that there have been close to one million same-sex marriages performed in the United States since 2004. Of course, not all of these married couples held weddings at which commercial services or goods were needed or desired.
By any reasonable reckoning, the 54 publicly known cases of actual service denials that we found are likely a tiny fraction of the total number of weddings at which gay couples called on service providers for venues, cakes, photographs, flowers, and other products from the innumerable professionals who make weddings their business. Many of these couples self-selected their providers, opting for those they knew to be open to gay couples. But the logical inference from these numbers is that the vast majority of gay couples and wedding businesses have had no difficulty engaging in these particular commercial exchanges. Markets tend to value profit over identity or moral judgment.
IV. Limitations and ongoing efforts
With that perspective in mind, it's also important to highlight some limitations of this study. We aim to catalogue only publicly known instances of wedding-service denials. Again, by "publicly known," we mean those denials accessible to the public through online media sources (like newspapers and social-media sites) and public records of litigation.
There are doubtless many cases of actual denial where the rejection never surfaced publicly. It's possible the cases we've collected are the tip of an iceberg. Short of conducting broad surveys or doing other research, our review could not capture these private acts of denial. It also cannot capture the full impact of discrimination in the wedding-service industry, which would include cases where gay couples altogether avoid a provider because they fear rejection or cases where providers hide the true reason for denials.
This project is ongoing. We will update Documenting Denial as needed. To that end, we invite readers to send corrections and additions to: documentingdenial@smu.edu. If making suggestions for additional cases that should be added, please send links or other documentation supporting the additions.
Finally, I want to thank the following SMU Law students who gave countless hours and boundless devotion to this project over the past five years: Jaishal Dhimar, Sarah Fisher, Emily Fletcher, Ryan Fulghum, Lauren Jasiak, Kaci Jones, and Sarah Starr. Their excellent work will continue to inform this controversy long past their law school graduations.
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If there's a clear dividing line in speech vs. custom work for pay, that would be interesting too. The last word has probably not been spoken from the SC on what counts.
The people who, correctly, pushed to expand freedom of speech to freedom of expression, including artistic expression, allowed every outrageous tableau from burning a flag to a crucifix upside down in urine, the purpose of both to be deliberately stimulative to complacent Mr. and Mrs. Middle America.
"But this is commercial, for pay!"
So was the piss Christ. The real controversy was using tax dollars to defile sacred symbols.
The Biden administration was OK with debanking. What is the difference?
Those individuals who choose to refuse to do business with sodomites have every right not to do so. Read Leviticus 17 and Romans 1, and see what God sees as an abomination.
Here's my idea: you can only claim that you're doing something because Leviticus bans it if you follow all of the other rules in there as well. So, as examples, restaurants couldn't serve pork or seafood, and businesses would also have to refuse service to everyone with a rash or wearing clothing woven from different materials.
That's a stupid idea, because the temple rituals from Leviticus were overridden by the New Testament. The moral rules regarding sexuality were not.
It's Christian Calvinball!
It's understanding the Bible and theology.
It's *an* understanding of the Bible and *an* understanding of theology.
The so-called "New Testament" isn't the bible.
Acts 15 set forth a compromise:
"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood."
Different translations result in different nuances.
Just what "sexual immorality" means is unclear. But it isn't just "sodomy." For instance, vanilla missionary sex before marriage would be bad too. Romans 1 also denounces gossip, envy, slander, and malice. People around here might be on guard.
OTOH, some might not be guided by this religious text.
Here's my idea: Customers should be free to pick the business they hire on any basis they want, (They pretty much are, already.) and businesses should be free to pick the customers they want.
Freedom on BOTH sides of the transaction.
Were you expecting libertarian views on a libertarian blog? No, Carpenter wants to force his views on everyone.
While I can't say I remember every comment and post Carpenter has made on this blog, it does seem to me that he is one of the more libertarian of the bloggers on the VC.
This is of a piece with the antisemite Schlafly claiming that Prof Somin is Marxist. Prof. Carpenter does not want to force his views on everyone. In fact, Prof. Carpenter sided with Lori Smith in 303 Creative.
That would be nice if it weren't for all the racists and homophobes like Roger here. Hence "suspect classes." The reason businesses can't discriminate against suspect classes is that you end up with the Jim Crow south, where it becomes popular and normalized to discriminate. That's when it becomes an actual problem.
Would you be ok if whole sections of Atlanta declined to provide service to white people?
Except "all the racists and homophobes" - stipulating that the refusers are such, as opposed to merely being religious - amounts to 54 cases in a million. Dale says- rightly - that there may have been more cases not as yet recorded. But on the other hand, the denominator is not really a million, it's more like four or five million - since a wedding usually requires a number of suppliers - flowers, cake, venue, church maybe, tux hire and so on.
In short, you really do need a microscope to find "all the racists and homophobes." And even then, you're mostly just finding sincere bible bashers.
This is the same arithmetic that requires racist incidents to be staged a la Joosie - there's just not enough actual racism and homophobic hate to go round.
whole sections of Atlanta declined to provide service to white people? -- That could be beneficial.
Oh they provide “Services” if you include robbery and murder, and the Late/Great John Lewis’s Shithole district isn’t the worst one.
ATL’s current mayor, Andre Dickens (D) has improved things, funny how cracking a few heads at the Airport and downtown and miraculously the “Homeless” find homes
Frank
“The reason businesses can't discriminate against suspect classes is that you end up with the Jim Crow south, where it becomes popular and normalized to discriminate.”
You misspelled required. There’s a reason the system in the South was called Jim Crow laws and not Jim Crow freedom.
That's your argument? It's fine as long as it's not actually mandated by law?
No, my argument is that your claim that allowing businesses to choose their customers leads to Jim Crow is bullshit.
Oh right. Discrimination would've ended if only they'd repealed those laws. No need for the National Guard, that was just a publicity stunt. You're a riot tiny pianist.
Yeah, if they'd repealed those laws, and impartially enforced general laws against violence, discrimination would have ended in time.
Your definition of impartial isn't.
That's laughable Brett. Unless by "in time" you mean at some point prior to the sun exploding.
You’re saying Jews get a complete exemption, and nobody else does?
Er, umm…Don’t you think there might be a wee bit of a First Amendment problem with that?
Yup. Every major Christian church breaks from biblical literalism to some degree—the only question is how far? This includes those who pay lip service to “inerrancy”—their leaders simply make excuses that superseding inspired language (mostly New Testament) lets them ignore the inconvenient (mostly Old Testament) parts.
It’s not that the Bible was wrong, just that God changed his mind!
I don't understand why men who like to ejaculate into other men's buttholes think their relationships are special.
The folks denying them goods and services are the ones treating them as special. Gay folks want access to the goods and services on offer to everybody else, which is literally the opposite.
I don't think so. I would not be at all surprised if the sort of folk who "deny goods and services" to gay folk wanting to get married would also be unenthusiastic about supplying stuff to folk wanting to hold a devil worshippers party, a celebration of fornication, a "wedding ceremony" between a man and his horse, and customers who enter the shop swearing loudly.
Indeed, since I understand there are men who like to ejaculate in ladies buttholes, and ladies who like this too, I would not be at all surprised if a heterosexual couple seeking a cake explicitly to celebrate this aspect of their relationship might also leave the shop empty handed.
The notion that someone who opens a shop must be offering his goods and services to the world is an authoritarian conceit. In fact - and in this case the law generally agrees - the shopkeeper is not offering his goods and services to the world, he is making an invitation to treat. He does not promise to accept your offer to buy. If you piss him off, for whatever reason, he's entitled (absent authoritarian legal commands) to send you on your way.
The left likes to argue that stores rely on public resources and thus, there is justification for forcing them to behave in a certain way, but it's a very poor, morally bankrupt, argument.
I would not be at all surprised if the sort of folk who "deny goods and services" to gay folk wanting to get married would also be unenthusiastic about supplying stuff to folk wanting to hold a devil worshippers party, a celebration of fornication, a "wedding ceremony" between a man and his horse, and customers who enter the shop swearing loudly.
If that were true, it wouldn't violate any public accommodations laws. This is something the dissent made very clear in 303 Creative. Lorie Smith's lawyers were given every opportunity to say that her objections were broader than just gay marriages and she declined. She wanted to say "No Gay Weddings" and disclaimed caring about satanic marriages or whatever. "No {Suspect Class}" is like the only thing you're not supposed to do public-accommodation-wise.
I understand. But gregory's suggestion was that gay folk were the only people subjected to this "denial of goods and services" stuff, which is patently untrue. As you correctly say it is only protected class folk who get an exemption from the general "my store, my rules" principle. I myself, me, have been denied entry to a bar - in my distant youth - for wearing shorts. Whether they were thrilled with me changing into long pants in their car park, they didn't say. I myself, me, have declined service to a large corporation because a senior exec was insufferably rude to one of my staff. That's how it goes in freedom of association land.
As to Lorie Smith. I don't know whether you have characterized her opinions accurately, but if you are I'd be grateful for chapter and verse on her "disclaim[-ing] caring about satanic marriages or whatever." I don't feel inclined to trawl through the judgement. It does occur to me that if you are a lawyer trying to defeat a claim based on religious principle, it might be a good idea to try to widen the field so you can argue that what you're objecting to is simply part of a wider moral or political worldview, and not narrowly religious. And likewise it might be a good idea for your own lawyer to advise you - "don't let that slimy sleazeball drag you off into tricky hypos. Stick to your actual opinion on this actual case."
gregory's suggestion is incorrect. That is all.
It does occur to me that if you are a lawyer trying to defeat a claim based on religious principle, it might be a good idea to try to widen the field so you can argue that what you're objecting to is simply part of a wider moral or political worldview, and not narrowly religious.
Doesn't it? This was yet more evidence that 303 Creative was more test case than actual prayer for relief.
That is completely wrong.
Oh my god. Her petition for cert said that she wanted to post this:
How is it "completely wrong" to compare that to "No Gay Weddings." What, if it's wordy enough it's fine? "I will not be able to allow my laundromat to be used for clothes worn by Black people or any other people of color." No problemo, says the Nieporent.
She did not "disclaim caring about Satanic marriages or whatever."
Sure she did. This wasn't just a case of "I only want to create websites that align with my beliefs, religious or otherwise." If that's what it was, she would've won in the district court and the Tenth Circuit. Nobody had a problem with that. Not the dissent, not Colorado, not the DOJ.
The district court in particular was laser-focused on the "No Gay Websites" language I quoted above. She could've just replaced it with "no websites I object to such as satanic ones, disparaging ones, second marriages, etc." and everyone would've been happy.
She declined to do that because she specifically wanted to highlight her rejection of gay marriage.
She was making a point, and that point didn't include satanists and divorcées and whoever. The point being "No Gay Weddings," which is a point you just can't make as a public accommodation.
That's exactly what it was, and it's why she lost in the lower courts. Colorado absolutely had a problem with that; I don't know what on earth gives you the idea that it didn't.
That was the consistent position of Colorado. Lady could define her product almost any way she wanted -- including "websites that align with my religious principles" -- even if that meant that weddings for satanists, divorcées, gays, tax opportunists, etc. would be declined.
She just couldn't do the one thing she insisted on doing: define her product as being for straight people only, No Gays Allowed.
I don't have any idea what your point is here anymore. Her consistent position was that she would not design any website that sent a message inconsistent with her beliefs. It was not limited to gay marriage. From her cert petition:
Now, the only legal issue in the case was the application of Colorado's antidiscrimination law to her business, which did not constrain her ability to turn down, e.g., pro-abortion websites. But it did compel her to create pro-gay wedding websites, even though she only wanted to create websites that aligned with her beliefs. Gay weddings were just a subset of that.
See, no, this is 100% wrong. Colorado's position was that she could not decline weddings for gays.
"Define her product" wasn't at issue, and she did not insist on saying "No Gays allowed." She expressly said she would design website for gay people — just not for gay weddings.
"Define her product" wasn't at issue
Yes it was, that was the issue from Colorado's perspective.
In other words, Colorado saw the case in exactly your terms. So did the United States on behalf of Colorado!
The dissent makes all the same points. The only thing anyone was worried about was that she was defining her product in terms of gays rather than in terms of her religion. Read this again!
Emphasis mine. This is how she wanted to define her product. This is the copy she was suing in order to publish on the front page of her service, essentially the front window of her business. The district court and the Tenth Circuit both said nope, that's just a long-winded "No Gays Allowed" sign.
She could've written a description of her services that didn't focus on gays and instead focused on her broader beliefs like you claim she was really intending anyway, more like the "I won't espouse things that I loathe" formulation, and no one would've minded.
She declined to do that. She insisted on the No Gays Allowed version. That's what the whole case was about!
Even Alito caught on:
In other words, it was a stupid case. But it wasn't about what you (and most other people) think it was about. You're echoing the right-wing strawman framing of the case.
You're confused about what I claimed. I made the very narrow claim that gay folks wanting equal access to goods and services is by no means a plea for "special" treatment.
I defend the right of a baker declining to make a cake for a same-sex wedding, for example. But in that case, the baker is the one treating gay folks as "special" - i.e., of making a request for goods and services of the sort that the baker chooses to decline. The gay couple, seeking goods and services that the baker under most other conditions would provide, is not seeking "special" treatment.
In that case the baker is treating the gay folk as “special” in the same sense that all people he doesn’t choose to serve are “special.”
Which might include devil worshippers, dog eaters, Democrat voters, bikers, hobos, people with beards, Catholics, Swedes, that guy who tried to hit on his wife, his neighbour who he loathes and the woman at the Post Office with the really irritating way of talking.
There’s no problem at all with gay folk wanting equal treatment with those that the baker wants to serve, and unequal treatment with those that he doesn’t want to serve. Wanting is wanting, insisting is another thing.
The “special” people here are the ones who, specially, have been granted a special right to insist.
How about documenting how hard it was for them to find alternative vendors? My guess, not very hard. For the vast majority of vendors, the color of your money is all that matters.
In any event, it sounds like this is a rare occurrence and at most a minor inconvenience. Given that these people are engaged in what many consider sinful activity, that has to be tolerated in a free society.
Relitigating Katzenbach to own the libs.
Glad you agree that in most cases denying Xians service is trivial. They can just go elsewhere.
Sure. But the vendor can't complain if their refusal is publicized and they lose business because of it. Same for refusal of same-sex couples or marriages.
A vendor should have the right to refuse service. But not the right to keep it secret.
Of course. But the problem for the LGBTQ lobby is that most people are not going to boycott for this. In fact, most people either support it or are at best indifferent.
I have no problem with that. They should also be free to tell others about vendors who provided them services. Let the information out. That way they won't have to go to vendors that refuse them, because they can go to vendors who will accept them.
I wonder what Dale's views are on businesses who refuse to serve Conservatives?
I think a lot of this hinges on whether the business in question is a monopoly, or close to it.
The original basis of public accommodations acts was that somebody could end up in real trouble if they were refused service by an essential business that had a local monopoly. Their application to businesses that are providing optional services and have extensive local competition has always been more than a little dodgy from a libertarian standpoint.
These cases being 'documented' are basically all cases of services where there is a healthy local market, and you just move onto the next shop down the street. That's rather different from a near monopoly refusing service to people who realistically have no alternative.
Yes, he does not have any examples of homosexuals who were significantly inconvenienced.
I agree. This isn't a restaurant, a hotel, or a gas station. This is a one off purchase that if someone doesn't want to do business with you, you shop the competitition.
The rationale for the 1964 Civil Rights Act was powerful. A large segment of the population effectively couldn't travel or participate in society.
Here you have 54 cases in the last 20 years and almost all of them, if not all, could find alternate accommodations. In this aspect, especially given Obergefell's tip of the hat to sincerely held beliefs against this practice, it is more than reasonable not to overregulate.
One aspect not discussed is that this goes back to 2004. How many of these cases were done in situations where the state law itself "discriminated" against the wedding in question? You can hardly blame a business owner for aligning with the state's view of marriage.
How bad do you let it get before making it illegal?
Maybe when pirates start bringing in homosexuals from Africa and forcing them to pick cotton.
Well, bad in the slightest bit would be a start.
I think he did - "Even if they obtained the services elsewhere--and it appears that in all or almost all cases they did"
Replace "gay wedding" with "Klan rally" and write a book about that.
"The stakes were high for the couples who were denied services. Even if they obtained the services elsewhere--and it appears that in all or almost all cases they did--they bore the anxiety, time, and expense of having to do so. And they were figuratively slapped in the face at what should have been a joyous time in their lives."
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. Switching vendors is a relatively trivial obstacle. Knowing that some stranger doesn't approve of your union isn't a slap in the face.
It is entirely healthy for same-sex couples to accept that there is a small (and shrinking) contingent of people who oppose their marital arrangements. Decline to interact with those people, reject them as philistines, or whatever, and move on.
Yeah, my response to that paragraph was "Oh boo hoo."
In many of the cases that get publicity, the couple actually went looking for somebody who'd be unwilling, and only fixated on the vendor AFTER they were refused. They were shopping for a lawsuit, not a cake.
I guess cakes taste better if you know the baker didn't want to bake it.
You say this and yet one of the big Supreme Court cases on the topic is exactly the inverse: a business that went out of it's way to litigate over the fact that it didn't want to serve gay people, despite the fact none of them had ever asked it to.
Sounds pretty smart to me. Don't go into business if you know you are going to get hit with civil fines that put you out of business. Litigate that issue first.
Homosexuals require 100% subservience to their ideology. Yes, someone objected to that.
Yes, this is really the crux of the matter. Anyone who has ever arranged a wedding or other event knows there is always hassle in getting vendors. Some are not available, some are too expensive, some don't do things the way you like them. Shopping around is part of the experience. When I got married, my mother and future mother-in-law visited six or seven venues until they found one that they both liked and was available on dates we wanted.
The real issue here is gays don't like being told that someone considers their lifestyle sinful or immoral. But as you said, that's a fact of life they have to accept. Move on and find another vendor.
Jack Phillips is a hatemongering bigot. That having been said, if I were to marry again I would hesitate to purchase a food product from a seller who loathes my very existence.
Your views seem a bit contradictory. On the one hand,
Anyone who has ever arranged a wedding or other event knows there is always hassle in getting vendors. Some are not available, some are too expensive, some don't do things the way you like them. Shopping around is part of the experience. When I got married, my mother and future mother-in-law visited six or seven venues until they found one that they both liked and was available on dates we wanted.
On the other,
Move on and find another vendor, or, as Brett puts it, just move onto the next shop down the street.
Going by your own experience, it's really not that simple.
There is no contradiction. Finding vendors is a hassle. That does not mean you can't get one.
Point is, what it seems that gays are ally bothered by is not the minor hassle of finding another vendor, but that the first one considers them to be immoral. That's the price you pay for living in a free society -- some people disapprove of your behavior.
Muh, private businesses!
Are you at all worried that your handy database might get used as a target list by some terrorist?
"Doxumenting Denial"
Let's also start a database of vindictive homosexuals trying to force their beliefs on others.
Unless I missed something, he's doing that, too, at the same time:
"In essence, there are two ways to view the compilation of denial cases. One is by going to a chart (which we call the "Record") that gives detailed information about each case: a synopsis of the facts, the location and date of the denial or initial lawsuit filing, the type of wedding service or good involved, the names of the parties (both customers and business owners),"
You could get a list of HIV+ people, and you'll have almost perfect overlap.
Put a homosexual in a dress, you better hide your White Christian children. They're gonna be shot by the tranny side or gay molested by the homosexual side.
"SMU Law students"
Looking at the internet for news stories instead of learning how to be a lawyer.
"Looking at the internet for news stories instead of learning how to be a lawyer."
Bob, knowing how to compile data to build an evidentiary record is quite an important skill for a lawyer to be.
Why am I unsurprised that you don't know that? Have you ever tried a case to a jury?
Bob isn't a real lawyer, and doesn't understand that research is an important part of the job.
Not this shit again...
A piece of shit bigot will never stop being a piece of shit bigot.
Yes, Carpenter is a bigot who cannot tolerate others having other views.
So why is the (Very Wrong) Bigoted Al Sharpton on PMS-NBC all the time?
The basic premise of the article is a deeply flawed, that homosexuality is equivalent to heterosexuality. Common sense indicates they are not interchangeable. Any statement of this self-evident fact results in rants of "bigot" and "bias" in the thread.
You noticed I never used the word "wrong" or "bad." I never used a religious statement. I simply stated the irrefutable fact that heterosexuality and homosexuality are not the same.
There are religious objections to homosexuality. I do not share those objections but recognize that about half of the population of the planet is monotheistic with religious objections to same sex marriage.
It is disingenuous of the author to use the phrase "gay couples" in the headline instead of "gay marriages." Those two statements also are not equivalent. It is deceptive to do so. The opposition to gay marriage is not equivalent to the opposition to gay couples.
Being a bigot is not excused because you think an imaginary sky wizard wants you to be a bigot.
You just proved that!
The basic premise of the article is deeply flawed, that homosexuality is equivalent to heterosexuality. Common sense indicates they are not interchangeable.
Common sense indicates, in relevant part, they are equivalent for purposes of equal justice under the law.
People with blonde and red hair are not "the same" either in some sense. For purposes of equal protection, there are generally no relevant differences. This applies across the board.
Men and women have certain differences. The law requires heightened scrutiny before you can classify by sex. Generally speaking, treating men and women differently is wrong.
I also don't think the article is saying "a couple" and a "married couple" is the same thing.
Some discrimination has occurred against gay couples who are not married. There were discrimination laws protecting gay couples before there was a right for same sex couples to marry. That factors in.
Redheads do not go around trying to force everyone into believing that red hair is just the same as blonde hair. People are allowed to have their own opinions about hair color.
Stop drama-queening. Nobody's requiring you to believe anything.
I think you are mistaken. It was insufficient for Winston Smith merely to say there were five fingers. The punishment continued until he believed it.
The real lesson is not about the number of fingers or the color of hair - it's about learning how to think.
Joe : Men and women have certain differences. The law requires heightened scrutiny before you can classify by sex. Generally speaking, treating men and women differently is wrong.
But the distinction between same sex and opposite sex couples does not involve classifying the couple by sex ! Couples don't have a sex. They are a collective and they have a portfolio of sexes.
Common sense indicates that opposite sex couples are fundamentally different from same sex couples for purposes that are extremely relevant to the needs of society - to wit, its survival.
Leaving aside the opinions of the Big Bearded Guy in the sky, THE SCIENCE shows clearly that society must value opposite sex relationships waaaay more highly than same sex ones. Because society is entirely composed of the fruit of the former, and not at all composed of the fruit of the latter. For the latter is a barren tree.
Now there is nothing wrong - sorry BBG - with masturbating solo, but for the same reasons as for same sex coupling, society has no interest in honoring or encouraging it.
the distinction between same sex and opposite sex couples does not involve classifying the couple by sex
I was citing different classifications (hair color, etc.) & did not cite man/woman to argue otherwise. OTOH, it does involve that. The couples are treated differently, partially based on the sex of the partner being chosen. It is a sex classification in that sense.
its survival
Both same-sex and different sex couples are involved in our "survival" in a range of ways.
They have and raise children in a variety of ways. We don't have to value same sex couples who have children by adoption, mixed families, IVF, etc., WAY differently (or much at all) than different sex couples (who often have no children).
The jump to "no interest" is even more, to be blunt, absurd for a variety of reasons. Coupling, of each kind, has a variety of benefits.
Same sex couples do not “have” children. All children are created by heterosexual relationships, none are created by homosexual relationships.
Children who for whatever reason cannot be reared by their natural parents can be reared, on average sub optimally, by a variety of types of rearer. Adoptive opposite sex couples, same sex couples, single parents, grandma, uncle, government nursery / institution.
The data is in that the last is the worst, and single parents are worse than couples. But the data on the latter is confounded by couples being dominated by the natural parent couples.
Whether society has an interest in promoting same sex couples for child rearing purposes will depend on the evidence of outcomes. At present it is far too early to say.
So as I said, society has an interest in promoting opposite sex relationships for the purpose of child making and child rearing. Otherwise not so much.
Children are created by a sperm entering an egg; they are not created by "relationships."
Children are created by the relationship between the sperm and the egg.
“Relationship” in the sense of its general meaning - a connection or association. I was not using the word in its particular sense of a couple or a sexual coupling.
Joe mentioned IVF for example which is included in the class of heterosexual relationships in the first, general, sense - an association of different sexes. Thus a homosexual couple in a relationship (second, particular,sense) cannot make a baby. But one member of the couple can make a baby as a result of a heterosexual relationship (general sense) with someone of the opposite sex. Either by the traditional method, or by IVF or artificial insemination.
The point is that a child can only arise from some kind of heterosexual “relationship” which brings sperm and egg together. Whether the two people contributing to that “relationship” ever meet or not. A child cannot arise from a homosexual relationship in any sense.
"The basic premise of the article is a deeply flawed, that homosexuality is equivalent to heterosexuality."
It all comes down to the need to have someone to look down on. Then-Senator Lyndon Johnson recognized that as the root of racial discrimination. His aide Bill Moyers wrote in the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1988/11/13/what-a-real-president-was-like/d483c1be-d0da-43b7-bde6-04e10106ff6c/
That is not "the basic premise of the article." It is not a secondary premise of the article. It is not even a tertiary premise of the article.
We do not traditionally take a functionalist approach to civil rights being violated.
If we did, then it'd be hard to argue against race-based college admissions. After all, there are lots of choices on where to go for college!
I'd argue that the civil rights movement took a very wrong turn decades ago, in moving from strict equality of legal rights, to compelling people in the private sector to behave 'virtuously'.
And extending that to groups defined on the basis of behavior whose status was fundamentally contested? Beyond wrong, it was the government taking sides in active public controversies that hadn't yet been resolved.
But even from a perspective that sees treating behavioral groups suspect classes as a logical extension of civil rights law, extending public accommodations law to unessential services in entirely competitive markets was just a dick move, depriving those businesses of liberty for no adequate reason.
That's because the left's rationale for enforcing public accommodation laws went from "ensuring that people are not disenfranchised from life" to "ensuring fairness."
I've pointed out the history of how unfree Jim Crow was due to de facto discrimination as well as de jure.
You don't care - freedom for you extends only to those exactly like you.
Sexual orientation is a *status* it is not a behavior. That's what the Supreme Court says, and basically how people not obsessed with buttsex think.
And I don't think you're walking the tightrope to distinguish affirmative action at private schools.
Carpenter is only collecting examples of denial based on behavior, not orientation/status.
And I've pointed out that making that de facto discrimination work relied on the government failing to extend equal protection of the law, so that people who didn't WANT to discriminate could be threatened with violence if they didn't.
I don't give a bucket of warm spit if a private school engages in affirmative discrimination. I'll boycott them or not depending on what I think about what they're doing.
The government, however, is constitutionally prohibited from treating people differently on the basis of race, and that goes for any 'private' institution that choses to become a government actor by taking the government's lucre, because the government can't outsource what it's forbidden to do itself.