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Second Amendment Roundup: 4th Circuit Upholds Park Ban
Under Salerno test, ban held not to be invalid in all circumstances.
On August 27, the Fourth Circuit decided LaFave v. County of Fairfax, Virginia, a challenge to a ban on possession of a firearm in the public parks of the County. The opinion by Chief Judge Diaz avoided reaching the merits because it concluded that plaintiffs could not succeed in their facial challenge. (Disclosure: I represented the LaFave plaintiffs-appellants in the case.)
While not mentioned in the opinion, the parks consist of 23,584 acres of mostly wooded land with 334 miles of trails, which is over 9.3 percent of the land mass of the County. By comparison, the borough of Manhattan, which the Bruen court held does not qualify as a "sensitive place," is only 14,502 acres of densely-populated land.
The LaFave opinion began with recitations from the Bruen decision, including that the Second Amendment protects the "right to bear arms in public for self-defense." More precisely:
Bruen rejected the notion that the sensitive places doctrine allows governments to prohibit firearms in "all places of public congregation that are not isolated from law enforcement," which would "define[ ] the category of 'sensitive places' far too broadly." … "[T]he island of Manhattan," said the Court, doesn't qualify as a sensitive place "simply because it is crowded and protected generally by the New York City Police Department."
Plaintiffs-Appellants argued that the existence of sensitive places within Manhattan did not preclude Bruen from declaring New York's ban on carrying firearms in public places facially unconstitutional, even though firearms could be banned in sensitive places. The Thurgood Marshall United States Courthouse and the New York County Courthouse are located at Foley Square in Manhattan, and hundreds of schools are on that urban island. But New York's general carry ban was not valid, even though guns could be prohibited in sensitive places under specific laws.
The LaFave court saw it differently based on the existence of four preschools on a tiny portion of park property. In a facial challenge, the court related, "the challenger must establish that no set of circumstances exists under which the [challenged regulation] would be valid" (Salerno), or that "the statute lacks any 'plainly legitimate sweep'" (Stevens). To prevail against a facial challenge, "the [g]overnment need only demonstrate that [the challenged law] is constitutional in some of its applications." (Rahimi.)
LaFave upheld the ban on guns in the entire parklands on the basis that it may be constitutionally applied at the preschools. It noted that plaintiffs concede that "firearms may be banned in … schools," but contrary to the implication, plaintiffs noted that separate laws banned firearms in schools, but this law did not. No element of the offense of possession of a firearm in a park requires proof that the person possessed the firearm in a school. Heller said in dicta that a gun ban in schools is presumptively valid, but it did not say that one could be convicted under a general gun ban (such as D.C.'s handgun ban) as applied to a gun carried in a school. Here, a park ban is not a school ban.
According to LaFave, "The licensing regime in Bruen required all prospective gun owners to justify their wish to own a gun, regardless of where they sought to carry the weapon. There was no application of that regime that could satisfy the Second Amendment." Given that premise, the licensing regime would not satisfy the Second Amendment even if the applicant wished to carry a gun at a school. But any such carrying would be subject to a separate, specific school ban.
Moreover, the licensing issue did not stand alone – it was relevant only because carrying a firearm without a license was a crime. And the Second Amendment precluded a gun ban in all of Manhattan, even though it is filled with sensitive places.
Consider the implications of the holding that the parks ban is constitutional because a handful of preschools are on park property. Those same preschools are located in Fairfax County, so by implication firearms can be banned in the entirety of Fairfax County.
In more than one post-Salerno case, the Supreme Court clarified that "although statements in some of our opinions could be read to suggest otherwise, our holdings squarely contradict the theory that a vague provision is constitutional merely because there is some conduct that clearly falls within the provision's grasp." E.g., Johnson v. United States (2015). The LaFave court responds: "Plaintiffs' cases adopting a more generous standard all concern vagueness and are unpersuasive in the context of a Second Amendment challenge." Vague laws are precluded by the Due Process Clause. And as Bruen repeats: "The constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not 'a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.'"
In Rahimi the Court applied the Salerno rule to a specific statute with elements that are not invalid in all applications, not a general gun ban without such specific elements. The statute bans gun possession by a person subject to a court order that includes "a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child." 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8). The Court upheld this narrow prohibition facially because: "Unlike the regulation struck down in Bruen, Section 922(g)(8) does not broadly restrict arms use by the public generally." The park ban in LaFave does just that.
But what if the statute in Rahimi simply prohibited gun possession without more? It would be invalid in all applications, even as applied to a person who has such a court order. Just because another law could apply to such persons, this law banning guns generally would facially violate the Second Amendment, just like the handgun bans in Heller and McDonald.
Likewise with another precedent cited by the LaFave court, U.S. v. Canada (4th Cir. 2024). It upheld the ban on felon possession of a firearm as facially valid because it could be applied constitutionally in some cases, such as when the felony of conviction was carjacking or armed bank robbery. But again, if the law did nothing more than ban gun possession by all members of the public, it couldn't be constitutionally applied to anyone, even felons.
Salerno itself further illustrates the point. "A facial challenge to a legislative Act" – the Bail Reform Act in that case – "must establish that no set of circumstances exists under which the Act would be valid." The Act provided that a court must "detain an arrestee pending trial if the Government demonstrates by clear and convincing evidence after an adversary hearing that no release conditions 'will reasonably assure … the safety of any other person and the community.'" As applied to dangerous persons, that did not violate the Due Process Clause. But imagine a more general law under which a court could simply detain any arrestee pending trial at whim without any finding at all. That law would be unconstitutional in all circumstances, even as applied to dangerous criminals.
In contrast to LaFave, in Rhode v. Bonta (2025), the Ninth Circuit decided that California's ammunition background check system lacks a "plainly legitimate sweep" and thus was facially unconstitutional. It noted that both Heller and Bruen found the subject laws to be facially unconstitutional.
Almost all Second Amendment challenges where the Salerno rule is applied involve criminal laws, which more often than not are upheld as not invalid in all circumstances. In the few civil cases where Salerno is raised, most courts address the Nation's history and tradition of firearm regulation. The Fourth Circuit in LaFave simply skipped over that analysis and upheld the parks ban based on the theory that a different kind of ban – a ban on firearms in schools – could be validly applied to schools located in parks, and thus the parks ban is not invalid in all applications. That's not a proper application of the Salerno test because the offense of gun possession in a park has no element related to schools.
The bottom line: if the existence of four preschools in the parks justifies a gun ban throughout the parks, the same justification – four preschools – would exist for a gun ban throughout all of Fairfax County. That logic could be applied even wider and would wholly upend the Second Amendment.
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Well, yeah, they want to wholly upend the Second Amendment.
These woke activist judges have got to go. We need more originalists on the bench to uphold the Second Amendment and fewer robe-wearing pronoun warriors
I’m not saying I disagree with the analysis here. But given how hostile the courts, including SCOTUS, have been towards facial challenges—even Thomas has suggested that facial challenges are outside the ambit of the courts—why do people keep raising them in these gun cases? Wouldn’t it be better to chip away at these gun regulations with as-applied challenges brought by plaintiffs with good facts? I get criminal defense attorneys have to make whatever arguments they have for their clients. But plaintiffs attorneys can afford to be more discerning in which cases they choose to bring. I just don’t understand this strategy.
I think it's because, in the 2nd amendment cases, the laws being challenged are typically so totally over the top. When gun controllers draft laws, they generally aren't content to just marginally infringe the right, they're out to obliterate it.
So facial challenges seem appropriate.
Yeah, but they’re obviously not working very well, and the courts are hostile to them. So wouldn’t it be better to switch tactics? What’s a better precedent: a facial challenge to a park ban or an as-applied challenge by an upstanding citizen who says s/he never has any intention of going into the schools that are in the park? The latter, obviously.
Same with bans on 18–20 year olds. A facial challenge or an as-applied challenge by an 18-year-old with a spotless record? As I said, I agree with Halbrook that the courts are (generally) misapplying these facial challenges. But it’s so much easier to win an as-applied challenge that, when you get to choose which case you bring, it’s almost malpractice to make facial claims.
It's hard to say if the track record is due to the courts being hostile to facial challenges, in which case a different approach would be more successful. Or if it's due to the courts being hostile to the right itself, in which case a different approach would be no more successful. I tend to think the latter.
Yeah, like this Taino DNA Puerto Rican judge appointed by Obama was going to rule for the plaintiffs under any circumstance.
I'm an NRA Lifetime member and have contributed to a few 2nd A legal initiatives. Happy to have done that; would certainly do it again.
But chip away? You mean deliberate Civil Disobedience . . . take a firearm to the Fairfax County park to test the law? Like Henry David Thoreau and Rosa Parks? Any volunteers?
With all due respect to Justice Thomas, as tough as they are, I'll go with facial challenges.
Now if some poor sap, armed and properly licensed follows Google maps instructions to take a shortcut through the park . . . well, I'd consider contributing to his legal defense.
No, I do not mean deliberate civil disobedience because civil actions don't require you to take an action before you sue. One could sue for an injunction because they desire to carry a gun to a Fairfax County park but not to go to any of the schools in the park. Thus, as-applied to their desired conduct, the law would be unconstitutional. That would set a good precedent for future cases, thus chipping away at these regulations slowly rather than in one fell swoop, which the courts are hostile to.
Now, criminal defendants are another story because the litigation is brought against them rather than initiated by them. Thus, their attorneys have an obligation to advance whatever colorable arguments they can in their defense. That doesn't mean they can't be strategic in what defenses they make. But they're generally under more pressure to make arguments that will have the unfortunate result of setting precedents that undermine the arguments of future litigants. But that's just how the system works (one of the reasons why I'm not nearly as slavish to stare decisis as others, especially in the criminal context).
Thomas, of course, intended Bruen to mean gun nuts always win. But Thomas proved incapable to write a coherent opinion to support that outcome.
Worse, Thomas included truly bizarre demands that everyone who wanted to be heard on a gun case had to conform their arguments to chaotic legal reasoning slavishly like his own, so that even anti-gun plaintiffs would have to concede in their briefs that gun nuts always deserve to win. Gun nuts especially like that. They think it is a feature, instead of a fatal flaw in the decision.
That will make Bruen a troublesome legal landmark until it is sensibly rejected later, as improperly decided.
Come on, under Bruen us "gun nuts" don't always win. If you murder somebody with a gun, the fact that you used a gun instead of a tire iron doesn't mean you win in court, no, does it?
The problem here is that you really, desperately, don't want to treat gun ownership as a right.
When it comes to rights, exercise can only be prohibited where the exercise causes some actual harm, or carries a really high risk of harm. You can't ban a printer with a really big paper magazine just because it would facilitate printing larger numbers of a libel, after all. You can ban libel using a printer, because the libel itself is a harm and a crime.
It's just the same with guns and the 2nd amendment. If what you're banning isn't ITSELF a harm, or extraordinarily dangerous, the 2nd amendment gets in your way, and properly so. But if the use of the gun itself causes harm, (Murder, robbery!) or is unreasonably risky, (Shooting at random!) THAT misuse can be banned.
You want, instead, gun ownership to be treated as a privilege, where mere speculative harm of low probability is enough to clear the bar, because the bar is lying on the floor, and everything clears it.
Bellmore, I have been explicit often enough that I need not respond in detail to your outlandish distortions of my advocacy. The question on an originalist basis—the basis you foolishly seem to insist upon—is whether gun rights other than the militia right get 2A federal protection, or instead get various protections under state constitutions and precedents. The founding era evidence is all on the side of the latter conclusion. That is all that I have said. Nothing at all about not wanting to treat gun ownership as a right.
In the end, it comes down to this question, I think:
What does it mean, legally, to say that something is a "right"?
What does it imply?
Because gun ownership, in America, IS a "right", with everything that implies. Not a second class right, not a sorta right, not a "we call it a right, but it's really just a privilege" right.
A full blown, 100% enumerated right there in the Bill of Rights, right.
And all us "gun nuts" are demanding is that it be treated as such.
Your vibes hit on a pretty strong ding on originalism.
One might look at the Alien and Sedition Acts, the need for a case such as Marbury, or just the history of First Amendment jurisprudence to see that rights were not initially created as we currently see them operate.
Here's some scholarship on the issue:
https://harvardlawreview.org/print/vol-138/determining-rights/
https://www.yalelawjournal.org/article/natural-rights-and-the-first-amendment
I like our current more robust understanding of rights.
Bruen is a silly reset of some well-trod jurisprudence, but not a priori terrible; it'll just take some time to get back to the clarity we could have used to make a more immediately operable change in the law towards expanding 2A rights.
Brett's version of Bruen, of course, is just BrettLaw. Luckily he's not in any position to do more than be angrily wrong on the Internet over and over.
I realize that "vibes" is your word of the month, but it's September already, you can move on to the next one.
I provided both citations to original practice and 2 law review articles on the issue.
You provided none of that.
You're running on vibes and I'm not.
"Thomas, of course, intended Bruen to mean gun nuts always win. But Thomas proved incapable to write a coherent opinion to support that outcome. "
Speaking of writing ability, why would anyone write "incapable to write a coherent opinion" when they could write "incapable of writing a coherent opinion" or, even better, "unable to write a coherent opinion"?
Seamus — In your first instance you favor a weaker construction over a stronger one. Your second instance is at least a toss-up. In a different mood I might prefer it
What the case means is that plaintiffs are going to have to start challenging the application of gun bans to specific areas rather than challenge them facially. That is, plaintiffs are going to have to identify specific regions that don’t contain any sensitive places and say that the bans should not apply there, rather than seeking to strike the bans in their entirety.
Under the 4th Circuit’s reasoning, Fairfax County could enact a county-wide ban based on the fact that there are schools etc. in the county. It would then be incumbent on challengers to identify specific regions not containing any such places, and where they can show they will carry guns if permitted, and challenge the ban as applied to those regions.
Then the Democrat Party judges will just come up with different reasoning. It'll never change unless SCOTUS makes it change.
And they're not in any hurry to make it change, because the majority on the Court don't actually much LIKE the 2nd amendment. Oh, a majority will, if backed into a corner, and seeing no way out, uphold it, but seeing it violated just doesn't light a fire under them.
Sorry, but U.S. v. Salerno was written by that well-known Democrat, Chief Justice Rehnquist while only the arch-conservatives Brennan and Marshall dissented. I jest of course. Making facial challenges harder to bring was a conservative project to stop activist courts.
Are you suggesting that these rules only apply when liberals are challenging cnaervative laws, and don’t apply when conservatives challenge liberal ones? Or is it more that you don’t actually give a shit about the rules, whenever judges don’t reach the result you want, you’ll just make shit up about their supposedly being biased and lawless yada yada yada just to blow off steam and virtue-signal to your peers where you stand?
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/481/739/
No, I'm saying that gun control laws typically are such egregious violations of the 2nd amendment that facial challenges are actually appropriate.
And this is why you would make a terrible attorney - you confuse is and ought.
On the contrary, I'm perfectly capable of understanding that the courts' "is" is different from my "ought", I know the courts will rule in a way I don't like.
When I say that gun control laws are typically egregious violations of the 2nd amendment, I mean that as an observation about the sorts of laws gun controllers actually enact.
Take the immediate case: They could have written the law in question to bar guns from the grounds of those four schools, and if they had, the odds of the law being overturned on review would be negligible. Why didn't they? Hell, they didn't NEED to ban guns from those schools, it's already accomplished under federal law.
Why did they use the schools as an excuse to bar guns from the entire 23,584 acres of this enormous park? An over-reach which stands a good chance of being overturned if the Supreme court can be persuaded to take the appeal?
Because they're gun controllers, they actually WANT to infringe upon the 2nd amendment. Infringing the right is not a means to some limited end, it IS the end.
I don't know who you're replying to, as I have both Nieporent and Sarcastro on mute. You should do the same. Your life will be much better for it.
Time for a constitutional amendment stating that any restriction on any part of the constitution must equally apply to all parts of the constitution. If I can't have my second amendment rights, you can't have your first amendment rights. Go get an expensive permit before you dare speak or go to worship.
Wow, the court got that one wrong. "[N]o set of circumstances under which the [challenged regulation] would be valid" does not mean "an entirely different, much more limited regulation would be valid". There is no set of circumstances in which a firearms ban on the entirety of this park is valid. And that's the challenged regulation.
Right? For this distinction to actually be practical, the analysis should need to be "Is there any set of circumstances under which a ban on carrying IN THE ENTIRE PARK would be valid?"
They did perform exactly that analysis, our problem being that they did find a circumstance: That it was a ban on carrying guns.
It shouldn't be, but "But, guns!" is very much a widespread judicial doctrine, that sets aside normal legal reasoning.
But felons couldn't legally carry anywhere in the park. That's one circumstance. Salerno wins.
No, that's not right. If the law banned FELONS from carrying anywhere in the park you would be right. But the law bans anyone carrying anywhere in the park. Just as a law that says you can't carry at the school would pass muster but a law prohibiting carrying anywhere in the park doesn't.
To win a facial challenge under Salerno, the challenger must show that there are "no set of circumstances" under which the law would be valid.
This law bans carry in the whole park. Is that facially unconstitutional according to Salerno? No, because I have pointed out a circumstance---felons carrying guns---where the law would be constitutionally applied.
This is why in these threads I keep arguing against Salerno. It is unprincipled and boundless. It can allow results like this. To save Rahimi's conviction, the Court went to Salerno and has brought this on itself.
As the article alludes to. A law could be passed saying that you cannot criticize the President anywhere in the country and Salerno would seem to uphold the law because at least in some applications, say when a prisoner is being lectured by the warden, it would be constitutional for there to be no talking at all and therefore no criticism of the President. Facial challenge fails. Come back after you've spent another $100k in legal fees.
https://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/OpinionsWeb/processWebInputExternal.pl?Submit=Display&Path=Y2025/D09-02/C:24-2643:J:Kolar:aut:T:fnOp:N:3418183:S:0
More bad faith. "Temporary" my ass. You're not handed the gun back once you get off the train, meaning that you are disarmed the entire day. Much like when every business, post office, etc. is allowed to do the same.
Listened to the case/audio on you tube..Brilliant strategy by the attorneys representing Lafave..The one important thing that was ignored by the judges..Was the self defense aspect and honest law abiding citizens right to carry in Fairfax parks..And how many of the parks trails are isolated..If a citizen needed help it is quite difficult to reach that citizen...