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Prof. Kurt Lash Responds to Keith Whittington on Birthright Citizenship
Keith posted yesterday "On the Original Meaning of Birthright Citizenship," discussing his new article on the subject; here's the abstract of the article:
The citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment entrenched birthright citizenship into the Constitution. Building on a recent revisionist scholarly literature, President Trump's executive orders have asserted that the scope of birthright citizenship should be understood to exclude children born on American soil to parents who are unauthorized to be in the country or authorized to be in the country for only a limited purpose and period. This asserted limitation of birthright citizenship is at odds with the original meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and the antecedent common-law rule of nativity that the language of the Fourteenth Amendment embodied and declared.
And here's the closing paragraph of his post:
Sometimes the conventional wisdom is simply correct and efforts at revisionist thinking are misguided. To my mind, this is such a case. A living constitutionalist could readily produce a rationale for the Trump administration's position, but I do not think there is a serious originalist case to be made for it.
Prof. Kurt Lash, who has taken a different view, passed along this response, which I'm glad to publish:
Birthright Citizenship: A short assignment for the serious.
Keith Whittington has posted a new paper on the 14thA Citizenship Clause. Although he thinks there is no "serious original case" for the "revisionist" view adopted by the Trump administration, he does not engage the evidence and arguments that I make in my paper forthcoming in the Notre Dame Law Review. That evidence sharply contradicts his account.
Whittington's approach has become standard among those opposing Trump's EO. These scholars argue that the meaning of the citizenship clause is found in antebellum common law and that the framing and ratification debates should be understood in a manner consistent with what they stipulate was the common law approach. My approach is the opposite. I argue that the original understanding of the citizenship clause is clearly articulated in the framing and ratification debates, that it reflected a view not reducible to older common law approaches, and that they understood the text as imposing the dual conditions of birthplace and allegiance.
Although the issue is bouncing around the lower courts, no court has "seriously" engaged recent originalist scholarship on the framing and ratification debates. That will change, I believe, in the coming months. In the meantime, I plan on staying in the game and defending my claim that Trumbull meant exactly what he said when he declared "what do we mean by 'subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?' Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means."
Critics of the allegiance reading insist that Trumbull's statement is an outlier, that his reference to "allegiance" really meant something other than "allegiance," and that "revisionist" reliance on this statement amounts to cherry-picking. To the degree that these claims are meant to dissuade you from actually reading the evidence, they are a transparent dodge. But the proof is in the pudding. Check the sources!
Hesitant to the read the thousands of pages that I and others are writing on this subject? Fair enough. There is a much faster way to get up to speed on the issue.
As the months go by, I predict this debate will increasingly focus on roughly seven pages in the Congressional Globe. On May 30, the Senate publicly debated a proposed addition of a citizenship clause to the joint committee's draft of the Fourteenth Amendment. In this debate, you will find Howard's opening statement, questions directed to Trumbull (reflecting his prior work on the citizenship clause of the Civil Rights Bill), pushback from other senators, and Trumbull's responses and clarifications. The debate (reported in newspapers) includes analysis of the provision's impact on Chinese immigrants, so-called "Gypsies," members of Indian tribes under Tribal government, and tribal members who refused to live under any treaty-recognized tribal government. The pages are found at Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess., 2890 to 2897.
Not too taxing an assignment. I believe those seriously trying to follow the scholarly debate will find them an eye opener. But, wait, don't stop reading quite yet! Just a bit more. You are now in position to compare how Whittington and I differ in our reading of these critical pages. Whittington presents his analysis at pp. 30-33 of his work. My reading can be found in my article at pp. 50-57. My evidence and arguments, by the by, have been posted at SSRN for months.
Finished? Great. Now let the serious originalist debate begin.
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I don't understand why the drafters of the language wouldn't have included a reference to allegiance or simply have copied language from the somewhat corresponding civil rights act. If its a condition precedent that must be met to be granted citizenship by birth; then seems like quite an oversight.
One of the rules of statutory construction is that you don't resort to so called legislative history if the words are capable of being understood and applied (paraphrasing).
One person's response in debate about what 'subject to the jurisdiction' means doesn't resolve the issue for me when other people were complaining that gypsies and chinamen or other undesirable people's babies would be citizens under the language used and then they kept the same language. So there is understanding that the language being as broad as it was would do what the naysayers didn't want it to do. But kept it.
So maybe instead of an origanlist vs originalist debate its more of a textualist vs originalist debate. Because other learned jurists have had no issue reading the words 'subject to the jurisdiction' and easily understanding what those words mean and frankly have always meant.
This seems spot on to me.
"I don't understand why the drafters of the language wouldn't have included a reference to allegiance or simply have copied language from the somewhat corresponding civil rights act."
Just read the Congressional debate then. There you will find considerable exposition of this exact question. Further, you fill find that nobody had any issue with understanding that the jurisdiction clause excluded those "subject to any foreign power" as the CRA did. The only point of discussion was on the "Indians not taxed" part of the CRA.
"One person's response in debate about what 'subject to the jurisdiction' means doesn't resolve the issue for me"
It's not just one person. You will find that multiple speakers addressed this, that it was foundational to the entire discussion, and that nobody contradicted it any way shape or form.
"when other people were complaining that gypsies and chinamen or other undesirable people's babies would be citizens under the language used and then they kept the same language. So there is understanding that the language being as broad as it was would do what the naysayers didn't want it to do. But kept it."
Please take note of the response to Cowan's rant. The response is that Cowan's comments are irrelevant. The Chinese and Gypsies are already citizens under current law, there is no racial distinction in the law, and the 14a is making absolutely no change in this regard. The racial distinctions for which Cowan was arguing did not have anything to do with "jurisdiction."
But that's Chicago's point. Everyone in these seven pages agrees that the amendment would apply to Chinese and Gypsies whether or not current law already applied. Even Trumbull says this about Indians!
Everything in the seven pages turns on "subject to the laws." Which is what "jurisdiction" means. Even Twelve Inch points out that Trumbull ends up defining "allegiance" in terms of not being subject to the laws of the United States.
Sorry M L, you've got effectively zilch here. I can't understand why you're going all in on this loser argument.
I agree with your point that textualism and originalism don't always point the same way, but here they do. The "originalists" aren't being even a bit originalist; they're plucking random statements out of the pre-ratification debates and just asserting that those alternative words actually do the job that the real words don't do, but without any support for the claim that the alternative words actually meant what they want them to have meant.
IOW, they say that "subject to the jurisdiction" can't mean what it sounds like because someone said it actually meant "allegiance." But they never actually show that allegiance meant something different. They just want to assume that it did.
As Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. wrote in in his 1881 book The Common Law, “The life of the law has not been logic: it has been experience.” In light of that experience, the "allegiance" claim propounded by those who would deny birthright citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 1 is a red herring.
Tomoya Kawakita was born in this country in 1921 of Japanese parents who were citizens of Japan. He was thus a citizen of the United States by birth, and, by reason of Japanese law, a national of Japan. Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717, 720 (1952). He was convicted of treason and sentenced to death for conduct occurring while he was in Japan during World War II. SCOTUS affirmed his conviction and sentence.
Some of the underlying facts are as follows:
Id., at 720-721 (footnote omitted). SCOTUS described the charge to the jury and the verdict:
Id., at 722. The Supreme Court recognized that Kawakita was a dual citizen of the United States and of Japan:
Id., at 725. SCOTUS expressly rejected the Petitioner's contention that a person who has a dual nationality can be guilty of treason only to the country where he resides, not to the other country which claims him as a national. Id., at 732-736.
They did. "Subject to the jurisdiction of" aka allegiance.
"Other learned jurists have had no issue reading the words 'subject to the jurisdiction' and easily understanding what those words mean and frankly have always mean"? That must be why Wong Kim Ark rambled through 57 pages to explain that "a child born in the United States, of parent of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States." I wonder what the Court would have concluded if the parents had not had "a permanent domicil and residence in the United States" but had just been smuggled into the country with no legal right to live and work here?
But you're right. The issue is simple in that case. And the answer is their children are not properly considered US citizens at birth.
Are you intentionally obtuse or just stupid? If the parents were subjects of the emperor of China and were employed as diplomats for China... Wong Kim Ark wouldn't have been a natural born citizen.
Because that is one of the common law exceptions. But because they weren't diplomats and no other exceptions apply, the mere fact that he was born here granted him US citizenship. Which is the whole fkn point. The words chosen have consequences. If you don't like the words, change them. Amend the constitution and fix it so it more neatly fits your policy preferences. But don't pretend the words don't say what they actually say. Which was part of my first point. You don't resort to legislative history when the text is capable of being understood by its plain language. And disagreeing with the policy ramifications of the text does NOT make the words either ambiguous or undecipherable.
"I'm glad to pass along this snarky bullshit response showing what a fucking joke conservative academia has become."
Upvote.
(guy who hasn't read the 7 pages)
I read the 7 pages. Jaypd is exactly right. Kurt must be expecting people not to take him up on his offer to read those pages. They make it exceedingly clear that Birthright Citizenship applies to all immigrants, whether "legal" or not.
Exceedingly clear? No, Birthright Citizenship does not apply to all immigrants, under any interpretation.
Well, strictly speaking it doesn't apply to any immigrants. Just to their children who were born here.
Wow, a not totally stupid comment for once
"I read the 7 pages"
Maybe, but you are a well-known low-IQ troll, so it doesn't help.
I'm actually surprised that you're still standing behind your "interpretation" of the seven pages. You must be trying really hard to find a cognitive straw to grasp. It simply can't be read to support your position unless you're either totally a) dishonest or b) brainwashed.
Roger is brainwashed, that's clear enough. Which one are you?
History and tradition
And this is the problem with originalism.
What, that there's objective evidence that you can look at an evaluate, like Congressional debates?
Essentially, yes. Just cherry-pick the evidence that supports your preferred outcome. Everybody does it. Just look at Bruen, it's the worst offender.
Originalists don't even start with the text anymore. They just go straight to their preferred evidence (for that question... the same Originalist may have different preferred evidence for a different question).
Ah, I see: At this point you've completely disconnected from reality, so there's nothing left to argue about. Oh, well.
In both Bruen and this case, the "Originalist" argument begins like this:
See where the Constitution says "militia" / "jurisdiction"? Ok ignore that, it's a typo, you can understand what they really meant by putting the Constitution down and looking over here at History & Tradition / Ratification Debates.
LOL that's not what they did at all!
" Ok ignore that, it's a typo"
No reason to ignore it, but with respect to "militia" there's nothing in the text to indicate that it places any constraints on "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" that "shall not be infringed".
No reason to ignore it
there's nothing in the text to indicate that it places any constraints
It! It is the thing in the text. You're just trying to ignore it without admitting that's what you're doing.
There was one guy around here whose way around this was to claim that militias were actually a second, distinct right to the RKBA. Totally retarded, but at least it puts the words in the Constitution to some use!
What about the text makes you think the militia clause constrains the RKBA? You could just as well argue that it expands it, and shows that cases permitting bans on fully automatic weapons are wrongly decided.
I do think it shows that cases permitting bans on fully automatic weapons were wrongly decided!
I don't think of that as an expansion though. It's a natural aspect of the RKBA that isn't constrained by the militia clause since it facilitates militias.
What about the text makes you think the militia clause constrains the RKBA?
TwelveInchPianist — Badly constructed argument. The Militia Clause does nothing more than authorize a right to arms for a militia purpose. The question whether there exists a federal Constitutional right based on other authorizations goes unaddressed by the militia clause.
First, concede what is undeniable. There were some state constitutional protections for arms used for other than militia purposes. Those do nothing to establish federal Constitutional protection for those state purposes. And those state purposes were not alike among the states. They were various—which means that to enact in a federal Constitution any of the particular state protections would have negated other particular state protections. That stands as reasonable evidence against inference that the founders wanted a single federal standard to displace all the then-existing state standards.
You are the one asserting a federal Constitutional protection for a purpose broader than the militia purpose. Show from relevant historical survivals any basis for that assertion, or concede you cannot find such basis. On the assumption that if you had found such a basis, you would have shown it already, it looks like you prefer badly constructed reliance on a badly constructed argument, instead of a forthright historical query about what happened in the past.
The Militia Clause does not "authorize" anything at all. It simply states a fact: a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state.
It simply states a fact
Lol, to what end? Can you point to any other irrelevant facts in the constitution? Were the founders four-year-olds who liked to show off their declarative clauses?
Prof Volokh addresses this exact issue in his "Commonplace Second Amendment" article.
And I don't understand your "LOL." My statement is grammatically indisputable.
It may be grammatically indisputable, but it's semantically retarded.
This is the only spot where people fixate on the constitution's grammar rather than its (obvious) meaning.
Shutdown opponent by saying they've become incapacitated. Mature. Cheap.
Proving once again (as though there were any doubt) that a lawyer can and will produce an argument for his side of the case, no matter what his side is.
Originalism was invented for the purpose of making arguments against settled interpretations. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." seemed clear enough for 150 years. But someone invented originalism, which encourages poring through reams of forgotten history to cherry-pick support for desired outcomes.
For 150 years, Scotus never said that children of illegals are citizens under the 14A.
That hardly supports your position. Until a few months ago, just about everybody (correctly) thought the issue had been conclusively resolved in Wong Kim Ark. It has been taken as a given in case after lower court case, and has not been challenged even where successfully doing so would have greatly helped the litigant's position. When nobody except a few cranks disputes something, that is pretty good evidence that it is indeed "the law."
When Scotus finally rules on 14A birthright citizenship, we will find out who is right.
This may seem pedantic, but when Scotus rules on 14A birthright citizenship, all we'll find out is what their ruling is.
They don't determine who is right. They don't even determine Constitutionality - otherwise they'd never be able to overturn their judgments (barring an intervening amendment, of course.) They give their best ruling, and the other branches give it force, but that's all it is.
Mind you, in this case I expect them to rule that those born in the US, barring the few stated exceptions, are US citizens. I also think that's correct. Doesn't change the fact that their ruling doesn't prove rightness for either side.
In any case, I suspect that Schlafly will still find a reason why their ruling doesn't count, if it goes against his beliefs.
"When Scotus finally rules on 14A birthright citizenship, we will find out who is right."
At the risk of casting pearls before swine, (Matthew 7:6,) I should reiterate that SCOTUS has expressly recognized that the offspring of illegal aliens, born in the United States, is indeed an American citizen. In United States ex rel. Hintopoulos v. Shaughnessy, the petitioners, who were married to each other, worked as crew members on foreign ships that came into port in the United States. 353 U.S. 72, 73 (1957). They entered the United States lawfully and remained in the country after their 29-day visas expired. Id. at 73. The wife gave birth three months after her permission to stay expired and two months after her husband’s permission to stay expired. Id. Half a year later, deportation proceedings were instituted against both parents, and they asked to suspend deportation “on the ground of the economic detriment that would befall their minor son in the event they were deported.” Id. at 74. The Court remarked that their child was, “of course, an American citizen by birth.” Id. at 73; see also id. at 79 (Douglas, J., dissenting) (“The citizen is a five-year-old boy who was born here and who, therefore, is entitled to all the rights, privileges, and immunities which the Fourteenth Amendment bestows on every citizen.”).
The case is not really on point. Scotus should rule in the next year or two.
The case is precisely on point. Mr. and Mrs. Hintopoulos were in the United States unlawfully, having overstayed their visas, when their child was born in November 1951. There was no question that the parents were deportable. In January 1952 they applied for suspension of deportation under §19(c) of the Immigration Act of 1917, which conditionally authorized suspension of a deportation which "would result in serious economic detriment to a citizen . . . who is the . . . minor child of such deportable alien." The Board of Immigration Appeals found that petitioners were eligible for relief but, as a matter of administrative discretion, denied suspension of deportation, relying mainly on the fact that petitioners had established no roots or ties in this country.
As Justice Harlan's opinion of the Court expressly recognized, "the child is, of course, an American citizen by birth." 353 U.S. at 73. If that were not the case, the parents would have lacked statutory standing to seek habeas corpus relief in federal court. The child's birth citizenship was also critical to the parents having Article III standing to sue in federal court -- if the child were not a citizen from birth, the federal courts would lack the authority to issue an order which would redress the denial of the application for suspension of deportation.
As SCOTUS opined in Simon v. Eastern Kentucky Welfare Rights Org., 426 U.S. 26, 38 (1976):
The Board of Immigration Appeals heard Mr. and Mrs. Hintopoulos's appeal and upheld the Hearing Officer's recommendation and denied suspension of deportation. While denying relief, the Board in its findings acknowledged that the child was a U.S. citizen from birth:
353 U.S. at 75-76 (Ellipses in original, emphasis added.)
SCOTUS affirmed the Board's determinations -- including the finding that the infant's status as a U.S. citizen from birth enabled the parents to seek suspension of deportation in the first instance:
353 U.S. at 77.
Justice Douglas, joined in dissent by Justice Black, was even more emphatic regarding the child's citizenship from birth:
353 U.S. at 79-80. IOW, the six justices in the majority and the two dissenting justices unanimously recognized the citizenship from birth of a child born in the United States to parents who were unlawfully present here.
For 200+ years, SCOTUS never said that the 2nd Amendment was an individual right.
Actually, every time Scotus referred to the 2A, it was as an individual right. The anti-individual right argument was only invented in about 1960.
They explicitly said which groups were not citizens under the 14th Amendment. Wong Kim Ark isn't an ambiguous opinion. It is a carefully reasoned opinion that openly lays out the test to apply.
"Proving once again (as though there were any doubt) that a lawyer can and will produce an argument for his side of the case, no matter what his side is."
Better proof of that is the wild flailing of those trying to argue on the other side of this issue.
Lol, look up "flailing" in the legal dictionary and it'll point to your recent inane and lengthy dissections of the minutiae of the grammatical curlicues of a smattering of statements that Trumbull made in and around the period of reconstruction.
(guy who hasn't read the 7 pages)
"Originalism was invented for the purpose of making arguments against settled interpretations. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." seemed clear enough for 150 years. But someone invented originalism, which encourages poring through reams of forgotten history to cherry-pick support for desired outcomes."
Nonsense. Originalism was "invented" because those with the power to decide what the Constitution means had become noticeably corrupt--brazenly substituting their own preferences for those of the people who had drafted, enacted and understood the Constitution at the relevant time.
The citizenship aspect of the 14th Amendment is as clear now as it was then.
I always thought "originalism"was just the rebranding of "strict constructionism," since the latter phrase was much favored by the segregationists, and took on a bad odor.
"These scholars argue that the meaning of the citizenship clause is found in antebellum common law and that the framing and ratification debates should be understood in a manner consistent with what they stipulate was the common law approach."
This is something I am noticing more and more. The idea that a law or amendment should be interpreted based on the status quo when (or before) the law was passed. But this is completely wrong. The entire point of passing laws or amendments is to change the status quo. Anything that came before the new law should have little to no value.
But the 14th amendment was not intended to change the status quo in the North, where it was purported that rights were already being respected. It was intended to change the status quo in the South, bringing it in line with the North.
The point is to enshrine in words some intent, whether to preserve or change the status quo.
If a law is to be understood, it must be understood by its context at the time. If it is to be legitimate, it must be passed by legislators who understand it at the time. To have a living interpretation which changes what a law does over time, is to have a law that was passed by people who did not understand it.
Living constitutionalism stands for the proposition that future judges can thwart the will of past legislators by mere reinterpretation, instead of having to legitimize their new laws by passing new legislation.
Living constitutionalism is a fraud which makes an even bigger mockery of the Rule of Law.
Ya, I do kinda don't like living constitutionalism for the reasons that you said. However the past does not always give us guidance for situations that they never could have conceived.
Then pass a new law, or add a new amendment. Don't short-circuit it with judges.
The past isn’t dead.
It’s not even “past”.
I just came up with that and I don’t want to hear a lot of Sound and Fury saying I didn’t
I don’t think that’s how living constitutionalism, best understood, works. If you want a straw man to rail against that’s a good idea of it though.
The best way I’ve heard it defended is akin to the biblical idea that the spirit of the law > the letter. So when they wrote about equal protection they weren’t thinking of gays (or black women) but the principle applies. Or when the grounds for shooting fleeing felons becomes less relevant (because the definition of felony expands greatly) the principle behind the rule lessens in authority.
Yes, the spirit as reinterpreted by the future for their own ends. It's still judges passing legislation without going through the legislature.
Any reason, if that new interpretation is so obvious, that it couldn't wait to convince the legislature? Yes, because they know they can't convince the legislature. So much for the Rule of Law.
The spirit of the law is often honored. So, the Fourth Amendment is honored in an open-ended way. But that alone isn't involved.
The "letter" of equal protection would include protecting gays and lesbians. The text is "the equal protection of laws." If they only wanted to protect certain people, they could have said so. The second section of the 14A has specific exemptions, for instance.
People argue that the text should be tied to the specific original understanding when the people who wrote and ratified it used open-ended language and repeatedly acknowledged that it would lead to unclear directions.
Who is not respecting the lawmakers here?
The Framers (down to 1992) gave us text for a range of people who swear/affirm to uphold the Constitution to apply. It is for us, the living. If people want the text to say something different, there is an amendment process available.
The "letter" of equal protection would include protecting gays and lesbians. The text is "the equal protection of laws."
Of course. That the drafters may have thought or acted otherwise shouldn't matter.
I have noticed, over my life, that people sometimes fail to live up to their claimed principles. That does not mean the principles have been modified, just that those people are human. It also makes it difficult to judge the application of the principles from their behavior.
Another thing that humans are prone to is conformity, and not thinking clearly about various social customs. If everyone thinks women shouldn't vote, and it's fine to mistreat blacks in all sorts of ways, a lot of people, including government officials, will go along, without ever giving a moment's thought to the 14th.
The people who behave like that are the ones actually changing the meaning to satisfy their personal whims.
"the spirit of the law > the letter."
I'm not sure how that helps birthright citizenship for illegal aliens. The "spirit" of the 14A had very little to do with that.
If I were Eugene I’d be embarrassed to pass along this “response”. Lash engages in “National Treasure” legal analysis where Birthright citizenship had a true meaning that was kept secret by the the drafters, and the consensus for the last century and a half was a collective mistake that can be rectified by letting Nicolas Cage interpret the secret clues.
Do you keep things secret by airing them in a Congressional debate?
And I don't think there's much argument that, when it came to the 14th amendment, we suffered from a long standing mistake; I think people call that "Jim Crow", the Bill of Rights was supposed to have been immediately incorporated, not starting after over 80 years. Given one long standing mistake about the meaning of the 14th amendment, is another so implausible?
I'm not saying he's right, mind you. But I think he's wrong for normal values of constitutional debate, and in the range where you sometimes win anyway if the politics are right.
Not sure what you are trying to say. Trumbull statements support birthright citizenship for all but the children of diplomats, tribal Indians, and those born in enemy territory. Nothing in the congressional debates supports any other interpretation.
Everything in the debates establishes that jurisdiction meant not having any foreign allegiance.
Correct. And everything in the debates established the Aliens in our country have no foreign allegiance while in our country. Oops. Guess you missed that.
Nope, they are ALL citizens of, and owe allegiance to, a different country. Do you really argue that illegal immigrants from, say, Mexico could not be drafted into the Mexican Army???? When American draft-dodgers went to Canada, they were still subject to the American draft. And were NOT subject to the Canadian military draft.
This issue came up during the debates and on Wong Kim Ark. Aliens, while here, have an obligation to follow our laws, not the laws of other countries. Mexico cannot violate our sovereignty by sending the police across the border to enforce their laws in our territory.
They also have obligations and allegiances to their home countries, which is why the 14A does not give citizenship.
Nope. No allegiance owed to their home countries. We don’t recognize the legitimacy of foreign law in our country. That’s why the congressional debates thought children of aliens were citizens if born here. All Senators agreed.
That's why the 14A uses the term jurisdiction.
...and why illegal aliens are not subject to US jurisdiction!
"They also have obligations and allegiances to their home countries, which is why the 14A does not give citizenship."
Roger S could not be more wrong. Dual citizens, born in the United States to alien parents, have obligations and allegiances both to the United States and to any nation whose citizenship they acquired through their parents' nationality. See Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717, 720, 732-736 (1952).
That case does not contradict anything I wrote. It found a WWII Japanese-American traitor guilty of treason. He had obligations to the USA, and whatever obligation he might have had to Japan were irrelevant.
Do you really argue that illegal immigrants from, say, Mexico could not be drafted into the Mexican Army????
Uh, yeah. What do you think would happen? Do you think we'd let the Mexican Army come into the country to pick them up?
I mean Trump might, but that's only because he's old and confused.
Neither were Canadians. There hasn't been a military draft, or registration for one, in Canada since 1945.
Draft eligibility is a poor vehicle for your argument. As noted in the Selective Service website, undocumented male aliens 18-25 are required to register for the draft. I guess they must be subject to the jurisdiction after all!
Not only is that not true, but as I noted above, that does nothing to establish that the narrow interpretation of the birthright clause is correct. All people here, legally or not, other than the handful of exceptions we all agree exist, owed allegiance to the U.S. while here.
And, what's the unifying factor between these groups? They're all children of the citizens of other sovereigns who happen to be IN the US without allegiance to the US.
The text doesn’t mention allegiance but does mention the IN. Seems to me in a tie goes to situation it’s clear where a textualist should go.
Allegiance is an archaic word that means the same thing as jurisdiction. If the government has jurisdiction, they owe allegiance.
Funny, I don't see the word "allegiance" in the text.
(guy who hasn't read the 7 pages which have been public record for 160 years)
You know, just because a host of liberal screeching scholars declare something, doesn't mean it's true. Even if they do so for a number of years.
The Court has never ruled on this issue. And it was only in the 1960s that bureaucrats started implementing birthright citizenship as you conceive of it as a matter of course. Before that it was not a thing, see e.g. the 1930s repatriations.
The 1898 SCOTUS was hardly a liberal court when it ruled that Chinese born hear were citizens, despite the DOJ’s argument that they were born allegiant to the Emperor of China.
Maybe that 1898 court even thought that importing Chinese workers was a good thing. We have an immigration crisis today, and those 1898 errors need to be corrected.
You’re saying the quiet part out loud when you demand the case be overturned to achieve your policy objectives and not applying neutral principles of law to the case.
No, there is need to overturn those decisions, as they were limited to unusual circumstances.
Children born to Alien parents are not unusual circumstances.
First you said errors, now you say no need to overturn.
There are a lot of Scotus decisions with erroneous dicta that do not need to be overturned.
Except that, in 1892, immigration from China was illegal.
However that decision concerned a lawful permanent domiciled resident, as the court repeatedly emphasized.
Now do Slaughterhouse and Elk v Wilkins.
Illegal immigration was not a thing when the 14th was ratified. Neither was the concept that some pregnant woman could fly over, give birth to a new citizen, and fly back home, all in one or a few days.
The 14th says nothing about either condition. Any court decision on what they think it says on those two matters is just pure blarney.
Hoplophobes like to whine that modern semi-auto rifles are not covered by the 2nd Amendment because they had not been invented. But guns were, they did have repeating arms in 1791, and repeating arms were common in 1868. Illegal immigration was not, and the idea of crossing an ocean, giving birth, and crossing back in one day was not even plausible for fiction.
Then pass a new constitutional amendment recognising the change of circumstance, rather than reinterpret the existing one.
Reinterpreting a previous interpretation does not legitimize the previous interpretation. Are you agreeing or disagreeing, and with what?
That's right, the 14A says nothing about the kids of illegals. Whittington even concedes the point, and just makes up his own preferred legal principle.
It says every person born here is a citizen.
No it doesn't. It states a principle for exceptions to that.
So far I agree with Whittington, not Lash/Trump/etc, on what the exception means. But there's obviously exceptions.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
The “all” is the general principle.
?
The "and subject to" is the definite exception, so explicitly, the rule is not "every person born here is a citizen".
If you're just saying "every person born here is a citizen, unless included in the stated exception", OK I guess?
It certainly does.
OK, let's go with your 2A illustration. And tease out the interpretation principle.
Just suppose for a sec that repeating firearms *didn't* exist till long after ratification(s).
I assume you agree: If the 2A said "personal carryable firearms", and someone said, "Any court decision on what they think the 2A says on repeating firearms is just pure blarney", they'd be wrong. Tough. It doesn't matter if "the idea of a gun that sprays hundreds of bullets per second was not even plausible for fiction".
Why? Because that law states a rule that unambiguously applies, even if modern scenarios couldn't have been anticipated. You'd need an amendment! Even if you could time-travel and ask every ratifier "would you want this to apply to those guns?" and they said "no". Tough. That's not the law they passed.
OTOH, if you suppose "arms" didn't have a clear definition that definitely applies to repeating firearms... Maybe your "blarney" comment would apply there. At least, it's harder. Maybe we'd even have to conclude something like, "originalism doesn't always settle a question". Whatever.
I guess I'm asking: Can you agree that saying "Illegal immigration was not a thing when the 14th was ratified" (and the rest of your first paragraph) doesn't settle whether "it's blarney", *unless* the rule in the 14th (like the "jurisdiction" stuff) lacks a clear enough definition to know how it applies to the scenarios they didn't anticipate?
Umm, "bear" does mean "carryable".
I know. And repeatable firearms existed. Sorry I was unclear, "if the 2A said" was part of the hypothetical. I was positing wording that unambiguously would include machine guns, even if someone tries to say "arms" isn't clear, even if the drafters couldn't have conceived of them.
Hopefully that helps.
So again: Can you agree that saying "Illegal immigration was not a thing when the 14th was ratified" (and the rest of your first paragraph) doesn't settle whether "it's blarney", *unless* the rule in the 14th (like the "jurisdiction" stuff) lacks a clear enough definition to know how it applies to the scenarios they didn't anticipate?
The original meaning of the constitution cannot be changed by future controversies.
Amen.
I have been banging this drum for several years now since I read those 7 eye-opening pages.
Just yesterday I was commenting and I started to say, you know the record is rather brief just a few pages!
Nobody ever links the document either. This post should be the starting point for discussion.
Yes, they were not making citizens out of children of illegals or birth tourists.
I just read the seven pages, and they say exactly what Professor Whittington writes on the topic:
It's completely clear reading those debates, and Trumbull's comments in particular, that he is saying Indians would be excluded because they wouldn't be subject to US laws--he specifically makes the point that, e.g. the US wouldn't have the jurisdiction to prosecute its laws over either "wild" Indians or those who were parts of Indian nations that we had treaties with and treated as sovereign. But all of the discussion about allegiance is in this context--whether or not US law applies to people, not whether or not they are somehow loyal to the country.
"he is saying Indians would be excluded because they wouldn't be subject to US laws"
Only inside their territories, though. Outside of their territories, they would be subject to US laws--just like any other foreigner.
If you read a bit more carefully, Trumbull says the reason Indians are excluded from jurisdiction is that they owe allegiance to a quasi-foreign sovereign. The fact that they are not subject to US laws (within their territory) is used to illustrate that their tribes are (quasi) foreign powers. Indians are not subject to US laws while in Indian territory, just like Mexicans are not subject to US laws while in Mexico (Trumbull makes this comparison specifically). Thus, Indians are sufficiently foreign to be considered not subject to jurisdiction, even if they were temporarily outside of the reservation--just as a Mexican national temporarily present within the US would not be subject to jurisdiction (though both the Indian and the Mexican are of course temporarily subject to US laws in such a circumstance).
I responded to Whittington here: https://reason.com/volokh/2025/08/25/on-the-original-meaning-of-birthright-citizenship/?comments=true#comment-11177322
This is wrong (emphasis added):
"The critical point accepted on all sides in the congressional debate in 1866 was that Indians born on tribal lands were foreigners to the United States."
It should be:
The critical point accepted on all sides in the congressional debate in 1866 was that Indians who belonged to a tribe (regardless of birth location) were foreigners to the United States.
First, to the extent you're correct it proves the general point that none of this discussion can be construed to limit birthright citizenship to aliens, illegal or otherwise, in the modern context. At the time of the debate, within the territory of the United States, there were effectively a bunch of sovereign nations, and the framers did not want to extend birthright citizenship into those nations even though they were within the United States. But long ago, that particular distinction was done away with and all of those Indians became citizens as well. And the underlying premise: that there are parts of the US where US law doesn't extend, does not in any way support the case that birthright citizenship doesn't reach aliens in places where US law is controlling.
But more generally, the essence of Trumbull's argument is simply that the Indians aren't subject to US law, and this is the
Aliens in the US can be sued. If they break laws, they can be prosecuted and go to jail. That's what Trumbull meant by "subject to the jurisdiction of the US" and nothing in those seven pages contradicts the modern notion of birthright citizenship in any way.
You've missed the point.
Trumbull very explicitly explains that tribal Indians, within their territories, are like Mexicans in Mexico.
They are not subject to US laws within their sovereign lands.
Therefore, they are foreign and have an allegiance to a foreign entity.
Therefore, they are not subject to US jurisdiction in the sense used here, which requires exclusive allegiance.
This is true even though both are subject to US laws and courts while temporarily present in the US (and, in the case of Indians, outside the reservation).
Okay, now find the part where he or anyone else says that Indians born in the US outside of Indian-controlled lands wouldn't be subject to birthright citizenship. The only thing any of this discussion proves is that there were effectively a bunch of foreign countries inside the United States and that people born in those little countries weren't intended to become citizens under the 14th Amendment, just as people born in Mexico or China also wouldn't become citizens under the 14th amendment.
The debate actually makes clear that if Indians move into the parts of US territory considered to be under the jurisdiction of the US, that they would become citizens. In fact, Trumbull's chief reason for opposing the addition of language about untaxed Indians to Section 1 of the 14th Amendment is that he doesn't think that whether or not Indians become citizens should be contingent on whether or not they actually pay taxes. On page 127, the debate makes it clear that if the US were to exert jurisdiction over Indians by taxing them that the 14th amendment would make them citizens.
There's simply no suggestion anywhere in the debate that anyone born in areas governed by US law wouldn't become citizens under the 14th Amendment, and a lot of language that indicates the common understanding of the Amendment is correct.
Is there evidence of a historical practice of that? An Indian and his 8 month pregnant wife leave the reservation temporarily. She goes into early labor and gives birth to a child. The birth is off the reservation.
Was the Indian child a citizen by birth? The answer to that question seems to answer this one almost by a perfect analogy.
I don't know. Apparently neither do any of these originalist scholars since I haven't seen such an example discussed anywhere.
I haven't seen an actual case specifically like that, but a lesser known case that is worthwhile is US v Elm.
You will see, nowhere is the place of birth with or outside of a reservation mentioned. Instead, what matters for jurisdiction is the status as a member of a foreign entity with a foreign allegiance.
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case/reporter/F.Cas/0025.f.cas/0025.f.cas.1006.pdf
Indians who maintain their tribal relations, are the
subjects of independent governments, and, as such,
not in the jurisdiction of the United States, within
the meaning of the amendment, because the Indian
nations have always been regarded as distinct political
communities, between which and our government
certain international relations were to be maintained.
These relations are established by treaties to the same
extent as with foreign powers. They are treated as
1007 sovereign communities, possessing and exercising
the right of free deliberation and action, but, in
consideration of protection, owing a qualified
subjection to the United States.
If defendant's tribe continued to maintain its tribal
integrity, and he continued to recognize his tribal
relations, his status as a citizen would not be affected
by the fourteenth amendment; but such is not his case.
His tribe has ceased to maintain its tribal integrity, and
he has abandoned his tribal relations, as will hereafter
appear; and because of these facts, and because
Indians in this state are subject to taxation, he is
a citizen, within the meaning of the fourteenth
amendment . . .
those who, like the defendant, have no tribe, and are taxed,
are, within the language of the fourteenth amendment,
subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, as that
language should be interpreted in the light of the civil
rights bill. They are natives, they owe no allegiance
other than to the government of the United States, and
they have been placed by the state upon an equality
with its citizens respecting important rights denied to
aliens.
Emphasis added.
For a relatively recent historical practice even more directly on point to the question of illegal aliens, there is the fact that millions of Mexicans who were born here were repatriated in the 1930s.
That is a fictional statistic, and also that there was racism in the 1930s doesn’t tell us anything about what the birthright clause means any more than the existence of Jim Crow in the 1930s tells that the EPC doesn't apply to black people.
What the debate makes clear is that tribal Indians were excluded from jurisdiction specifically because of their allegiance to a foreign entity - same as anyone else with a foreign allegiance.
The fact that tribal territories were not subject to US laws and courts just served to illustrate that tribes were foreign entities, to which Indians had allegiance, and therefore tribal Indians were not subject to jurisdiction, since jurisdiction requires exclusive allegiance.
Such allegiances do not magically evaporate the moment you set foot outside your homeland.
So there is far more than a suggestion in the debates. It is explicitly stated that Indians who belonged to a tribe were not subject to US jurisdiction, because of quasi-foreign allegiance.
On the other hand, there is no suggestion in the debates that allegiance dissolves the moment you step foot somewhere else.
They do, in fact. When you are in the United States you owe allegiance to the United States, regardless of your citizenship — unless, of course, you are a diplomat or an invading soldier.
"When you are in the United States you owe allegiance to the United States, regardless of your citizenship — unless, of course, you are a diplomat or an invading soldier."
What.
When I travel to England, do I stop owing allegiance to the United States and start owing it to England? Huh? What?
Correct. The relevant term is "jurisdiction", not "allegiance".
No. According to your interpretation of Trumbull, it's because Indian land is de facto not part of the USA. So, Indians born on the reservations are not subject to the jurisdiction and Indians born off the reservation are. As you have said that's analogous to Mexicans born in Mexico not subject to the jurisdiction and Mexicans born in the USA are.
If we accept that interpretation, then "subject to the jurisdiction" refers to your proximate place of birth. It's consistent with the plain text of 14A and what Whittington called "local allegiance."
But another possibility is "subject to the jurisdiction" refers to the entirety of the USA (including reservations) in which Indians who are members of tribes are not "subject to the jurisdiction" no matter where they were born. That too is consistent with the plain text of 14A.
I mean, Trumbull said it's because of their tribal/foreign allegiance. If allegiance like that follows you when you step foot outside your homeland, then it's not limited to Indians/Mexicans within their homelands, it also applies when they are visiting other places. The Supreme Court said the same in Slaughterhouse and Elk v Wilkins. A NY court said the same in 1877 in US v Elm.
A third possibility is that I'm right, but maybe you don't want to admit that possibility because of a political preference?
The third possibility is not consistent with the text (no mention of allegiance). The third possibility implies Trumbull contradicted himself in the debate on the Civil Rights Act (those Germans in PA). The third possibility implies Wong was wrongly decided.
1. Only if you reject the definition of "jurisdiction" that the drafters and ratifiers seemed to accept.
2. Only if you reject the idea that the US permitting immigrants to come and permanently domicile here involved a sovereign choice to bring them within its jurisdiction, and thereby recognize an implicit abandonment of former allegiances on their part. (It's not just a very few German citizens in PA, the whole country would have very few citizens all over!)
3. Only if you improperly attempt to broaden the holding beyond the particular case and ignore the court's repeated emphasis on the fact that Wong was permanently domiciled in the US. Granted some off kilter statements of reasoning can be found in Wong.
4. Your position implies that Elk v. Wilkins was wrongly decided.
It did not.
Getting a green card is an implicit abandonment of a foreign allegiance? That's the Olympic-level gymnastics you have to perform in order to not reverse Wong (and accept Trump's EO). What a pathetic disingenuous argument.
Both positions (*) I gave conclude Elk was correctly decided.
(*) 1) "subject to the jurisdiction" refers to your proximate place of birth, so Indians born on reservations aren't 14A citizens at birth.
(*) 2) "subject to the jurisdiction" refers to the entirety of the USA (including reservations), so Indians born anywhere aren't 14A citizens at birth.
I don't know about green cards or anything today, but obviously the drafters and ratifiers of the citizenship clause thought that the immigrant populations at that time, who permanently settled here (with the permission of the US), eventually became subject to jurisdiction and did not have foreign allegiances. So how do you explain that? You don't. Instead you just ignore it and claim that these clear articulations of what the text meant don't matter.
Elk v Wilkins states that the citizenship clause applies to persons "owing no allegiance to any alien power." Does that square with your argument?
Clear articulations of the text in those debates? You made a funny.
The Wong Court rejected your interpretation of Elk:
The distinction between Elk and Wong did not rest on foreign loyalty.
How about coming clean and admitting your argument requires Wong to be reversed instead of making up shit about what Wong said.
No, wwe claim that these clear articulations of what the text meant do matter. And you're just ignoring those in favor of your made up definitions of words like allegiance, and anachronistic concepts like permanent residence.
If an Indian left the reservation in the late 1800s, could he have been prosecuted under state or federal law for crimes he may have committed while off the reservation? Could he be sued for a tort committed?
If yes, how is this different than what M L is saying?
Of course he could be prosecuted under state or federal law for conduct off the reservation. So what? He can't be prosecuted under state or federal law for conduct on the reservation and that's why he is not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the USA.
What is the evidence that babies born here to illegal immigrants do not have allegiance to the US? These kids who grow up speaking English in American schools are still harboring loyalties to the Vietnamese government?
The Lash argument makes sense in the context of French fur traders setting up camp in Minnesota.
That's not what's happening today.
The parents do not so they did not acquire citizenship at birth.
Why don’t they have allegiance?
The parent's allegiance is to whatever country they are from until they are naturalized here.
Nope. They have access to our courts. They are bound by our laws. That means they have allegiance to us.
This definition of "allegiance" comes across loud and clear in the infamous "seven pages."
If I travel to the UK on vacation, do I owe them "allegiance"? I know I have to follow their laws and otherwise behave myself, but allegiance seems a bit much.
That's because the word has changed in connotation over the last 150+ years. It's pretty clear from the Senators' conversation that when they say "allegiance" they mean submitting to the sovereign's laws, which yes, you do when you travel to the UK on vacation.
Guess who doesn't submit to the United States' laws? Diplomats, invading armies, and (in the past) Indians-not-taxed.
(And by "submitting" to a nation's laws I mean "following them or paying the consequences." Criminals still owe allegiance since they may be prosecuted, just like you could be prosecuted while on vacation in the UK but not as a diplomat in the UK.)
So your position is that the Pledge of Allegiance was intended to mean nothing more than "I promise to obey the laws of the United States while standing on its soil"?
Check out the history if the pledge sometime.
It was written by a socialist and intended to sell magazines.
Also look up the Supreme Court discussing how mandating the pledge is not constitutional, and why.
Just heard a quick podcast that covered both:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/back-to-school-origins-of-the-pledge/id1168154281?i=1000722805502
I take the confetti cloud of distractions as a clear signal that even you recognize the quest to retroactively redefine "allegiance" to mean "follow the rules" is pants-on-head crazy.
Hey, you brought up the pledge.
Here's a neato quote from the Supreme Court regarding said pledge:
"Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions. These laws must, to be consistent with the First Amendment, permit the widest toleration of conflicting viewpoints consistent with a society of free men."
Is that the kind of country you're arguing in favor of?
I brought up the Pledge as an example of how what Randal concedes is at least the current meaning of "allegiance" was just totally coincidentally also its meaning back in the 1800s.
Again, you seem desperate to talk about anything BUT what "allegiance" means.
Huh? What do you think the pledge has to do with the 1800s?
Did your flux capacitor malfunction and land you in the middle of Alternative History by Nieporent?
I mean, Trumbull obviously wasn't using "allegiance" in the modern sense of loyalty. He wasn't proposing a loyalty test.
He describes what he means pretty explicitly. Even if you just take the oft-quoted phrase where he identifies allegiance with jurisdiction, that means he's using a definition of allegiance which means roughly "under jurisdiction." It doesn't mean he's using a definition of jurisdiction that means "bound by loyalty" lol.
And there's no hint of a whiff that anyone there considers allegiance and jurisdiction to have different scopes, such as a suggestion to change the language to allegiance. Quite the opposite, they say over and over that the goal is to be as clear as possible, and that goal is met by the word jurisdiction because it just means the same as allegiance.
So your position is that the Pledge of Allegiance was intended to mean nothing more than "I promise to obey the laws of the United States while standing on its soil"?
Taking this question at face value... of course not. I even said above that allegiance never meant actually obeying the laws. It just meant acknowledging that they apply.
You could see how things like the Pledge helped "allegiance" to take on its new connotation. Originally it was the word "pledge" doing all the work. That's the bond. If you pledge to acknowledge that the nation's laws apply to you indefinitely, that's tantamount to swearing a loyalty oath since it's a promise never to renounce the United States' jurisdiction over you.
Also consider that in the monarchy days, your allegiances weren't up to you. Your allegiance to the crown was at the whim of the King. A "Pledge of Allegiance" wouldn't have made any sense at all. To the contrary, you "owed your allegiance" to the crown in what essentially amounts to a protection racket.
The common thread across all these uses of "allegiance" is the core idea of which sovereign's laws bind and protect you. Which is the same concept as jurisdiction, just from the other perspective. A sovereign has jurisdiction over a person, and coextensively, a person has allegiance to a sovereign.
That's what allegiance means!
Feel free to paste your supporting dictionary definition here. Even Randal isn't being so silly as to claim that definition applies today.
Yeah, that's just wrong. While they are here their allegiance has to be to the U.S.
"The parent's allegiance is to whatever country they are from until they are naturalized here."
Which says nothing at all about the child's allegiance. Dual citizenship has long been recognized. See Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325, 344-349 (1939). Dual citizens, born in the United States to alien parents, have obligations and allegiances both to the United States and to any nation whose citizenship they acquired through their parents' nationality. See Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717, 720, 732-736 (1952).
The parents do not so they did not acquire citizenship at birth.
This rule you made up is neither in the text, nor in the debate.
People forget that the debate was about the large population of Indians (and gypsies, Chinese, etc) already born. The discussion in the congressional record was about whether these already born people would become citizens.
This is made obvious if you leave out the parts of debate the "allegiance" fans like to skip. Trumbull and others state reasons why some Indians don't have it: they weren't prosecuted for murders committed on their lands, they lived by their own regulations, they were not subject to taxation.
The main point here is those were all attributes of the Indians under discussion as potential citizens. NOT THE INDIAN'S PARENTS. Trumbull wasn't talking about their parents, he never mentioned parents.
It also needs to be pointed out that newborns with illegal alien parents, once they're capable, would be prosecuted in US courts if they commit a murder, would be expected to follow our laws, and would be subject to taxes. All the stuff that Trumbull said defined allegiance.
"Originalism" should simply be renamed as "resultism." If the text states one thing we don't like, we revert to "originalism" and pull out the oujia boards to know what Thomas Jefferson really meant. It's a silly method of legal analysis. If they wanted it to say "allegiance" they probably should have wrote that. To go back 200 years and claim that "well, we know what they meant" is absurd.
Resultism - no that's the other side, the non-originalists.
Yeah, he is just ignoring how libs ran SCOTUS from 1938 until 2020
Whataboutism.
Not at all, its a correction to saying ""Originalism" should simply be renamed as "resultism" when that applies to "living constitutionalism".
All methods of constitutional interpretation are "resultism," to some extent. What is laughable is originalism's pretensions to objectivity.
I disagree with him on certain things, but I respect Justice Stephen Breyer's honesty about the choices he made.
Those who apply the law, especially when they need to obtain a majority in a multi-member court, make choices.
Some are better than others. The best thing is usually to have the choices out in the open, though judges often don't want to do that. The law allegedly comes from the sky (or founders).
I appreciate the honesty. You object to originalism because you believe its practitioners are no better than anyone else, and have motives no better than anyone else's. In that light, one may as well choose a method of interpretation more likely to result in better outcomes--as we see them today.
Fair enough. And this particular debate explicitly illustrates how badly originalism can be done if perpetrated by the "wrong people" with the "wrong motives". I've never argued that originalism was immune from corruption.
I do believe that, by inexorably focusing on the original meaning and understanding of the relevant documents, however, such brazen fabrications and rationalizations as had become commonplace under "living constitutionalism" can at least be reduced. By requiring constant reference to the original meaning and understanding, everything is transparent. BS will be called out--relentlessly, if necessary.
I see several people shitting on originalism because two (purported) originalists *gasp* disagree. Yet, as always, those people ignore that the interpretive alternatives would allow the very thing they likely oppose--namely, there's no reason why the modern generation could not interpret the 14th Amendment to allow an extremely narrow definition of birthright citizenship.
For some reason, there's a belief that these things will always go in one direction towards a certain politically preferred outcome. But without some historical grounding, there's no reason why that's true. If a new generation thinks burning at the stake isn't cruel and unusual, then there's nothing to stop that punishment from being administered. If a new generation thinks "press" means only an actual printing press, then that's the new meaning. But that would only mean the Constitution means nothing, because if it can mean anything at any given time it has no meaning at all. It would defeat the entire point of a written, codified constitution, and also undermines democratic government--which is another thing these same people constantly complain is being undermined.
Two biologists might disagree about the expected results of natural selection. Or two Shakespeare scholars might disagree about the meaning of a particular passage in one of his plays. But their disagreement about the applications doesn't undermine the legitimacy of natural selection as a theory or the field of Shakespeare studies. And it certainly doesn't mean that one of the two scholars isn't ultimately correct just because the other disagrees.
interpretive alternatives would allow the very thing they likely oppose
Which alternatives do you have in mind?
Living constitutionalism, pragmatism, economic theory, natural law, just to name a few. All of them can be used to justify saying that under modern circumstances the children of illegal or temporary aliens can be denied birthright citizenship. Despite a few outliers, the case for that is much weaker under originalism, especially originalist models that give heavy weight to precedent.
Despite a few outliers, the case for that is much weaker under originalism
I don't think that's true.
originalist models that give heavy weight to precedent.
Baude's positive turn, those are rare.
I'm not anti-originalist. Or at least I don't think it necessarily worse than other methods of constitutional interpretation. I just don't think it's better, for all the rhetoric of originalists.
Originalism has it's virtues. Being some how better than other methods at avoiding outcome-oriented reasoning is not one of them.
This issue, and the scholarships/posts about it, are great examples of why.
If "jurisdiction" can mean something other than jurisdiction, then why can't "allegiance" mean something other than allegiance?
Maybe it could. Do you have evidence that it did?
In the 13th century "awful" meant "full of awe" or "inspiring wonder or reverence."
Toilet once meant a lady getting dressed and ready for the day. Language changes.
But the law doesn’t unless acted upon. That’s why sticking with the original public meaning and context is so important. That way, “domestic violence” means what the Founders intended rather than what we use the term for. See U.S. Const. art IV, sec. 4.
The notion that there existed a single "original public meaning" is just wrong. Different people had different ideas about what the language meant, right from the beginning. As an example, look at the debate in the first Congress about who had the power to remove cabinet members. Even people who had been present at the Constitutional Convention disagreed about that.
Therefore, we should just forget about original meaning, and do whatever we want. Right?
No. We shouldn't pretend that there is a single, correct history that we can discover well enough to override the most obvious meaning to the text that we would give it now. The history of the law and the Constitution, debates over ratification, statements and arguments by contemporary political figures, can be helpful, but it is not going to be dispositive on its own. We still have to apply the text of the Constitution and the law to situations in the present, and to situations that the historical figures we have records from would not have understood or thought about. (Add to this that we only have records of things written or said by a small fraction of the people that would have voted in legislatures and conventions on the Constitution and the amendments and those others that didn't vote on them, but expressed opinions on them.)
Also, framing the choice as originalism or "do whatever we want" is a blatant false dichotomy. Especially when "originalism" often means "a dishonest intellectual cover for doing whatever we want" to the politicians and judges making decisions.
"Also, framing the choice as originalism or "do whatever we want" is a blatant false dichotomy."
Indeed, it actually means "do whatever those with the power want".
Of course, just like text doesn’t have a single meaning today.
But we should recognize, for example, that domestic violence had a different meaning in the 17th century and not pretend that the constitution says anything about wife-beating.
Sure, the self-same Senate debate.
Birthright revisionists focus on Trumbull's
but ignore the immediately following
And to be doubly sure, shortly later:
So rather than using jurisdiction to mean allegiance he seems to be using allegiance to mean jurisdiction, in the sense of "having a duty to obey the law". Diplomats, invading armies, and treaty Indians in 1866 didn't have that duty, but other foreign visitors did.
Sigh.
You do understand that tribal Indians were subject to US laws and courts if they stepped foot outside of their territories - correct?
Trumbull explains that Indians within their territories are like Mexicans in Mexico. In both cases, they are not subject to US laws in their sovereign lands. Thus in both cases, they have allegiance to a foreign sovereign. Thus in both cases, they are not subject to US jurisdiction. Yet in both cases they are, of course, subject to US laws while temporarily present in the US (and, in the case of Indians, outside the reservation).
Do you understand that if tribal Indians left their territories, they were no longer "Indians-not-taxed" and their children would be citizens, just like Mexicans in the United States?
Trumbull says:
He uses Colorado in his examples instead of New York, but still... you're just wrong again, M L.
Is "allegiance" emanating from a penumbra?
Anyway, this is my favorite quote from the seven pages, a little bit abbreviated:
He's talking about you guys, M L and Roger S!
I do also enjoy the same senator making fun of the racist Pennsylvanian's misuse of "invasion..." just like today!
Also Gypsies telling fortunes : Haitians eating the pets.
But why all this talk about Gypsies? I have lived in the United States for now many a year, and really I have heard more about Gypsies in the last two or three months than I have heard before in my life. It cannot be because they have increased so much of late. It must be that the Gypsy element is to be added to our political agitation, so that hereafter the negro alone shall not claim our entire attention.
Just replace Gypsy with trans and negro with gays and you have today's right-wing equivalent. The gays / negros got their rights, so the bigots have to move on to a new target. Nothing new under the sun.
(I also like his subtle version of "If you, as a Caucasian, have such 'high' qualities, then why you such a racist fool!")
Lash chooses an interesting spot to stop quoting Trumbull:
" What do we mean by "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?" Not owing allegiance to any- body else;. That is what it means. Can you sue a Navajoe Indian in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means. We make treaties with them. If we want to control the Navajoes, or any other Indians of which the Senator from Wisconsin has spoken, How do we do it? Do we pass a law to control them? Are the subject to our jurisdiction in that sense? Is it not understood that if we want to make arrangements with the Indians to whom he refers we do it by means of a treaty?"
Exactly. Even if we were to for some reason accept "owing allegiance" as any kind of bar, it would mean "owing allegiance" to the exclusion of US jurisdiction... the way a diplomat, or an invading soldier, or an Indian-not-taxed is actually responsive to a foreign sovereign, in just the way that immigrants aren't.
What is interesting about that?
By pointing out that Indians were not subject to US laws *while within their territories,* Trumbull was illustrating that the tribes were foreign powers. He specifically likened them to Mexicans, who were of course not subject to US laws, while in Mexico. Trumbull was explaining that Indian tribes are sufficiently foreign such that tribal Indians owed a foreign allegiance. And any foreign allegiance meant that you were not subject to US jurisdiction (even though you would, of course, be subject to US laws temporarily while present in the US or in the case of Indians, off the reservation).
This is a great catch. For the same reason I can sue an illegal alien who hits me with his car, he is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, namely, the laws apply to and can be acted upon against him.
Ugh.
Anyone who thinks that this is interesting or a "catch" has not even begun to grok the ratification debates.
So, if a tribal Indian hit you with his horse in 1870, you could sue him. Just like you can sue an illegal alien today who hits you with his car.
Depending on where the incident occurred, of course.
If it occurred on sovereign tribal territory, in the case of the Indian, or Mexico or Honduras or something, in the case of the illegal immigrant . . . then no, you could not sue them in US courts.
I don't understand why you don't see how this completely undermines your position.
If an Indian-not-taxed hits you within the US, can you sue in US courts? Only subject to treaty provisions.
If a diplomat hits you within the US, can you sue in US courts? Only subject to treaty provisions.
If an invading soldier hits you within the US, can you sue him in US courts? Only subject to treaty provisions.
If an illegal immigrant hits you, can you sue them in US courts? Yes! No treaty necessary.
Incorrect. Tribal Indians were the same as other foreign nationals in terms of being subject to US laws while they were, let's say, visiting New York City. They were both subject to US laws generally. In both cases, the procedure involved could be influenced by treaties the US may have agreed to that covered such occurrences - or not.
So? If an Indian moved to New York and had a kid, that kid would be a United States citizen, just like the child of an illegal Mexican immigrant.
Guys, this is all great discussion, but don't let M L distract you into missing the main point. The central falsehood of the allegianists is talking about the parents.
The only thing that matters is the allegiance of the child. The illegal immigrant parent being liable to lawsuits, while true, is irrelevant.
The child never was in Mexico so M L is tossing up a shiny distraction when he talks where some car accident occurs.
A challenge for M L: show even a single word in Trumbull's lengthy speech where he ties allegiance to the parentage. As far as I can tell, every single condition of allegiance Trumbull mentions is about being subject to our laws. Zero things he mentions have anything to do with ancestry.
Or more simply: allegiance, as he used it, means exactly the same thing as under the jurisdiction, as we conventionally use it.
I haven't yet read the seven pages linked by Prof. Lash, though I intend to do so. For now, though, a question arises concerning the "owing allegiance" business.
Suppose that I'm a resident of another country, and that I flee when that country's government is overthrown, by violence and contrary to that country's laws. I renounce my citizenship in that country, whose new government has never offered me any sort of protection, and might cheerfully execute me if they could lay hands on me. Indeed, let's go a step further: What if the coup had been followed by a civil war, with multiple claimants to the leadership? Do I "owe allegiance" to whichever warlord is currently in control of the most land, or to my home city, or to the capital? Or do I somehow owe allegiance to a certain piece of the Earth's surface, regardless of the legitimacy, illegitimacy, or even nonexistence of the government that currently controls it?
And if, under circumstances such as these, I flee to the U.S. and there give birth, can it really be said that the ensuing child owes any sort of allegiance to the country from which I fled? At least in this sort of situation, the owes-allegiance argument seems to weigh rather strongly in favor of birthright citizenship.
That are people who are stateless. Happens rarely, but it does happen.
Remembering that we're specifically talking about the U.S. here. Would the children of those stateless people in the U.S., and their children after them, be stateless as well, unless the U.S. government at the time feels like giving them citizenship? Despite the fact that the U.S. government would exercise full authority over them in every way?
Well, I suppose that sounds reasonable, if the stateless people in question aren't liked well enough by the majority of voters to be treated like people. Hmm, kind of sounds like the problem that the Citizenship Clause was supposed to remedy...
Yeah, I guess that seems reasonable if the people in question are not a group of people that the majority wants to be equal.
A stateless person can apply to be naturalized.
So, children of US citizens that have dual citizenship are not US citizens? Trumbull can be forgiven for not thinking this through, since dual citizenship wasn't a thing back then. But Lash shouldn't be.
Of course, "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" is not at all the same thing as "not owing allegiance to anybody else" and you don't need a degree in formal logic to see that. As someone pointed out in the previous thread, Whittington basically stated that "Water is wet."
That's right, children of those claiming dual citizenship are not US citizens. That is another issue that will eventually have to go to Scotus.
The Constitution might not be suicide pact but apparently the 14A is one.
The Great Replacement enters the chat!
1. It is nuts to say that the political allegiance of a baby is the same of their parents.
2. It is undisputed that in 1868 after 14A was ratified the children of all immigrants were automatically citizens. Since it was true then it must be true now. Congress can not pass a law to create a subset of a population and then deny that subset constitutional rights.
1. It is nuts to say anything else.
2. Most of the current debate is not even about the children of immigrants.
1. A baby doesn't have any clue about what it would mean to owe allegiance to a nation, since it won't even understand those words for years. That is why it is silly to think about the "allegiance" a baby would have. A baby born to foreigners, but orphaned and raised by Americans can't owe allegiance to anything. It would owe allegiance to the U.S., once the child was old enough to understand what that means and was able to make conscious choices that relate to the what nation they felt affinity towards. If they choose, at that time, to see themselves according to the nation of their birth parents rather than the ones that raised them, then they would be renouncing their citizenship and the allegiance that they owe to the U.S.
Most of the current debate is not even about the children of immigrants.
2. Give me a break. The current debate is entirely centered around the children of immigrants not legally present in the country. Some extremists, perhaps you, would even like to see the children of green card holders denied birthright citizenship. But I have not seen anyone bring up this topic without it being entirely a question about the children of immigrants of some kind or another.
It does not matter whether the baby understands the word or not. Many of the commenters here do not seem to understand the word. They have legal obligations regardless.
No, most of the debate is about illegals, not immigrants.
I've long respected Kurt's work, but I think Keith has the better argument here (though I think he ought to address the Gypsy language).
I read these pages. There's one dude who says "what about the Chinese and Gypsies? I don't want them to become citizens and this will make them" and the Senator from CA says, "yeah, so what?" and that's the end of the story. Not one other person contradicts that reading that they will become citizens. Even the opponent knew what this meant.
And the entire rest of the debate is about what to do about the fact that, just like the Chinese and the Gypsies, it appears that natives will also become citizens, so maybe we ought to exclude them. And Howard's position (over and over, which wins out) is that these folks are like their own country IN OUR BORDERS and they make their OWN LAWS IN OUR BORDERS. The most telling part is where he says if one murders another, they deal with it, not us. And they talk about making treaties with them in our borders and when we pass laws we have to use force against them. That's just not about allegiance, that's about who has jurisdiction about regulating these folks, and it's not the US.
How, in your mind, does the discussion of Chinese and Gypsies help inform the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" ?
Sen. Cowan expressed that he would prefer to discriminate against the Chinese on the basis of race. Meanwhile, he had no problem with German immigrants getting citizenship.
His comments had nothing to do with "jurisdiction" at all, nor allegiance, nor anything relevant to the citizenship clause whatsoever. Those who responded to him pointed out that his comments had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Nobody has ever argued, today or back then or any time in between, that the citizenship clause discriminates between German and Chinese immigrants.
So what in the world is making people think this discussion is relevant?
It establishes that the lineage of the parents is irrelevant to birthright citizenship.
Yes, thank you. And to add to that, the OP by Lash lumps Chinese, Gypsies, and Indians into a group as part of the discussion in this debate that's eye-opening. But Cowan goes further - he would exclude cannibals, polygamists, etc. It's not all about discrimination against one race - he says we we should exclude MORE than just Indians not taxed precisely because he knows as written this thing covers everyone.
Cowan knows this thing covers everyone on same basis (i.e., that of jurisdiction) without regard to race or cannibalism. And they all know that "this thing" wasn't even a change to the current law in that regard.
So again, how does this inform "jurisdiction"?
Other than the obvious fact of course, that jurisdiction does not distinguish among races or cannibals.
Yes, of course the ethnic/racial ancestry of the parents is irrelevant. So what? How does that inform jurisdiction?
I've raised three babies and can testify that they bear allegiance to no man. If "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means "allegiance," then no one is a citizen at birth.
I jest somewhat, but one big problem with the "allegiance" argument is that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" refers to the person "born in the United States," not to his or her parents. Obviously, then, it can't mean allegiance.
In 1866, some of the freed slaves had been born in Africa (the slave trade wasn't outlawed by Congress until 1808). Were their children born in the United States citizens by birth or not?
That’s who the Amendment applied to you Twit
"I do not presume that any one will pretend to disguise the fact that the object of this first section is simply to declare that negroes shall be citizens of the United States. There can be no other object in it, I presume, than a further extension of the legislative kindness and beneficence of Congress toward that class of people." - Senator Saulsbury
But how is that accomplished? There is nothing in the text of the Citizenship Clause that mentions the freed slaves or others of African descent that had been denied citizenship prior to the 14th Amendment. You're acting like the intent is what matters, not the text itself.
It is accomplished by the US choosing to exercise jurisdiction over them, and also implicitly acknowledging the dissolution of any prior allegiances. The right to renounce allegiances was of course the basis of the declaration of independence. It was also enshrined, concurrently with the 14a, in the Expatriation Act of 1868, as "a natural and inherent right of all people" - regardless of what a foreign government might say and notwithstanding the British common law rule diametrically opposed. That Act further provided, "that any declaration, instruction, opinion, order, or decision of any officers of this government which restricts, impairs, or questions the right of expatriation, is hereby declared inconsistent with the fundamental principles of this government."
...in the Expatriation Act of 1868
I don't see how this act connects to the 14th Amendment and birthright citizenship. As you say, this was about adults renouncing the citizenship of their native country upon becoming U.S. citizens. What does that have to do with a child when they are born, and are obviously unable to say anything about their "allegiance"?
It is accomplished by the US choosing to exercise jurisdiction over them...
You use the word jurisdiction exactly how I understand the word, and according to the only meaning of the word that I've ever heard: the ability to exercise authority over someone.
...and also implicitly acknowledging the dissolution of any prior allegiances.
What is implicit can never override the plain meaning of what is explicitly stated. The plain meaning of being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is to be subject to the governmental authority of the United States. All children not born to diplomats (or Native Americans at that time) were subject to U.S. authority, and that is still true today.
I would suggest reading as Kurt Lash recommended so that you can become familiar with the definition of "jurisdiction" that all of the drafters and ratifiers of the citizenship clause seemed to accept.
"What does that have to do with a child when they are born, and are obviously unable to say anything about their "allegiance"?"
I think you are making a common mistake here in thinking about the word "allegiance" as some sort of feeling, commitment, assent, or fidelity toward something. While the word is used that way, that is not what is meant here. Instead it is a sort of legal duty or obligation.
Here is how Blackstone described natural allegiance under the British common law, which was rooted in feudalism:
"Natural allegiance is such as is due from all men born within the king's dominions immediately upon their birth. For, immediately upon their birth, they are under the king's protection; at a time too, when (during their infancy) they are incapable of protecting themselves. Natural allegiance is therefore a debt of gratitude; which cannot be forfeited, cancelled, or altered, by any change of time, place, or circumstance, nor by any thing but the united concurrence of the legislature. An Englishman who removes to France, or to China, owes the same allegiance to the king of England there as at home, and twenty years hence as well as now. For it is a principle of universal law, that the natural-born subject of one prince cannot by any act of his own, no, not by swearing allegiance to another, put off or discharge his natural allegiance to the former: for this natural allegiance was intrinsic, and primitive, and antecedent to the other; and cannot be devested without the concurrent act of that prince to whom it was first due. Indeed the natural-born subject of one prince, to whom he owes allegiance, may be entangled by subjecting himself absolutely to another; but it is his own act that brings him into these straits and difficulties, of owing service to two masters; and it is unreasonable that, by such voluntary act of his own, he should be able at pleasure to unloose those bands, by which he is connected to his natural prince."
Importantly, the US largely rejected the British common law notion of allegiance and subjectship, from the founding on. "Under the Constitution of the United States there are citizens, but no subjects" - James Wilson. Instead the US embraced principles based on consent of the governed. In turn the US has a sovereign choice whether to admit new immigrants into its citizenry, or not. The idea of citizenship without consent is erroneous. Anyway, the point here is allegiance is a sort of legal duty and status that you have automatically, rather than some choice that you make when you're old enough. But in the American understanding you can renounce allegiances when you're old enough.
I would suggest reading as Kurt Lash recommended so that you can become familiar with the definition of "jurisdiction" that all of the drafters and ratifiers of the citizenship clause seemed to accept.
Why? So I can see what statements and words Lash found that reveal the "true" meaning of the word that is different from the way it is used everywhere but in those statements and documents? I'm not going to take the time to look it up, but, if I remember correctly, it was some Justice that said that there was no secret, coded language used to write the Constitution. The text has to mean what it says as any American would read it, not just lawyers, legal scholars, or what some legal scholars say it meant to people that have been dead for over a hundred years.
I'm not going to bother. I don't trust Lash, because of what he wrote here:
I plan on staying in the game and defending my claim that Trumbull meant exactly what he said when he declared "what do we mean by 'subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?' Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means."
He goes on to point to where he got that quote, and says that he goes into detail about his analysis on pp. 50-57 of his article. But he starts with that quote in isolation from its context. He helpfully linked to the full record of the debates, but I prefer this source for them, since you can select text. Immediately following the quote from Sen. Turnbull Lash uses, Turnbull said this:
Can you sue a Navajoe Indian in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means. We make treaties with them, and therefore they are not subject to our jurisdiction. If they were, we would not make treaties with them. If we want to control the Navajoes, or any other Indians of which the Senator from Wisconsin has spoken, how do we do it? Do we pass a law to control them? Are they subject to our jurisdiction in that sense? Is it not understood that if we want to make arrangements with the Indians to whom he refers we do it by means of a treaty? The Senator himself has brought before us a great many treaties this session in order to get control of those people.
Turnbull clearly did not separate his concept of "allegiance" from the authority of a government to enforce its laws upon people that owed it allegiance. Also recognize this fact: that allegiance is not a one way street - any duty to a nation comes from being fully protected by that nation.
The other aspect of this feudal concept of allegiance that the United States dispensed with, besides perpetual allegiance to a monarch, is that such allegiance flows from the parents. The U.S. largely adopted jus soli (right of soil) citizenship immediately after ratification for "free white people" (I think some states had already been doing that. When the Articles of Confederation were adopted, U.S. citizenship was generally assumed to be derived from citizenship in a state, from what I can tell.) While also extending jus sanguinis (right of blood) to the children of U.S. citizens born abroad (but only if the father was a U.S. citizen).* The new nation used the place of birth to determine citizenship for anyone born here, and only used parentage in the case of those born abroad that otherwise would be considered American.
But then, the whole point of Dred Scot was to deny even the possibility of extending that existing legal tradition of birthright citizenship to all Black people in the U.S., regardless of whether they were slaves or free. And that brings us to the reason for the Citizenship Clause and why it is essential to interpret it exactly as it has been since at least United States v. Wong Kim Ark in 1898.
If history matters so much to originalists, then they can't ignore the history of racism in trying to deny groups of people the protection of citizenship. Birthright citizenship is a nearly ironclad protection against those in control of the federal government at the moment from isolating groups of people arbitrarily and declaring them to not be citizens and thus not entitled to the full protection of the Constitution and not entitled to vote for their government. Any attempt to weaken birthright citizenship must be seen for what it does: it weakens that firewall and makes it easier for some (future?) authoritarian in charge of the U.S. government to consolidate power.
*As a curiosity, one thing I found claimed that "natural born citizen" only appears in U.S. law other than in the requirement for being President in the Constitution in the 1790 naturalization act that stated that children born to U.S. citizen parents abroad would be "natural born citizens" of the U.S. That term does not appear in any of the naturalization laws that replaced that act.
Your Turnbull quote supports what Lash says. The 14A did not make Navaho Indians citizens either. They owed allegiance to their tribal leaders.
You give an anti-racist argument, but it is not an originalist argument.
Roger, can you even read?
The 14A did not make Navaho Indians citizens either. They owed allegiance to their tribal leaders.
You're skipping over everything he said, and that I said, that doesn't support your desired conclusion. Turnbull, like me, clearly viewed, and he clearly stated, how it is the inability to exercise authority over the Navajo that shows how they were not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. The way he puts it supports my contention that their allegiances were a product of who had authority over them. If anything, this argument based on allegiance is getting the cause and effect backwards. It is the authority that a government has over a person that makes them owe allegiance to that nation, not the other way around. Besides, I would go one further and say that the authority needs to be legitimate before a person would owe that government any allegiance.
Trumbull is giving a sufficient argument for Navajo not being citizens. They owe allegiance to their tribe, as evidenced by his treaty arguments. You have your own theory about who owes allegiance, but that is not in what Trumbull says.
It may help to understand that tribal Indians were subject to US laws outside of their territories, but were not subject to "jurisdiction" since they had a quasi-foreign allegiance.
It may help to understand that tribal Indians were subject to US laws outside of their territories, but were not subject to "jurisdiction" since they had a quasi-foreign allegiance.
Huh? So, now, not only are you insisting that "subject to the jurisdiction" hinges on whether a person owes also owes allegiance to that government entity, but someone can be subject to the laws of a city, state or the U.S. and still not be subject to the jurisdiction of that city, state, or the federal government? That's a serious pretzel you've twisted yourself in to.
Which, by the way, also shows the absurdity of this claim. No one would ever talk about owing "allegiance" to a city that they didn't even reside in, but they sure as hell would know that they were within the jurisdiction of the city's police force while within city limits. All of this requires reading both "allegiance" and "jurisdiction" in incredibly abstract, theoretical terms rather than by their plain, ordinary meaning that anyone would use in any other context. This is exactly the kind of 'secret meaning' that that unnamed justice I mentioned was talking about that doesn't exist in the Constitution.
M L's whole "argument" boils down to the observation -- probably mistaken but I don't know -- that a 1900 Indian-not-taxed who goes on a short trip to NYC and has a baby there would not get citizenship for their baby despite being subject to US and local law.
I think there are explanations for that -- if it's even true -- that don't require obscene definitions of "jurisdiction" and "allegiance," but it doesn't even matter because nobody's talking (much) about tourists.
If a 1900 Indian-not-taxed moved off the reservation to NYC, their kids would've gotten citizenship. That's all we need to know to figure out Birthright Citizenship for immigrants.
I explain this multiple times above as several people copied and pasted Trumbull's next words as you did.
Indians were not subject to US laws and court within their territory. Trumbull was explaining this to show that Indian tribes were foreign entities. And because they were foreign entities, tribal membership was a foreign allegiance. And since "jurisdiction" required exclusive allegiance, Indians who belonged to a tribe were not subject to jurisdiction.
Get it now? On the other hand Indians were subject to US laws and courts when temporarily outside their territory. But they still weren't subject to "jurisdiction," if they had a foreign allegiance.
You don't have to trust Lash, I was only suggesting that you read the source material which you just linked and quoted. But read the whole thing carefully before you form an opinion.
Or wait until Scotus rules, as it is likely to declare exceptions to birthright citizenship.
I have no idea what SCOTUS will do. If I had to guess, I would predict they "faint-heart" their way through and don't get it right. But I'm still open to other evidence and being persuaded on the issue. I just think as far as the ratification debate goes, it seems pretty clear they all agreed that jurisdiction meant exclusive allegiance, not just the temporary local allegiance of being subject to laws while you're in a foreign country.
It seems 100% clear that the opposite is true. We know that, because — despite your increasingly desperate attempts to take a few isolated phrases from the Congressional Globe to pretend that words didn't carry their ordinary meaning — that's in fact how it was always applied. Before the 14th and after, here and in the UK. It's what WKA held. And it hasn't been challenged until Trump.
Right so "despite" the words they clearly said, practice was contrary?
Link to a single case then that held someone who is temporarily present on vacation is "subject to jurisdiction."
Your comment is obviously weak sauce nonsense from an open borders shill.
Your argument doesn't even agree with Whittington, or Ho, or any of the other academics who are on your side of the issue. For some reason you find their positions difficult to defend and you've invented a different one. Or Josh R.
Why do you keep talking about people on vacation? Immigrants aren't on vacation lol.
Let's say you're right (you're not but) and US laws apply to tourists not via jurisdiction but via some other mechanism like treaties.
You might even be able to extend that to legal immigrants. Maybe green cards are an international compact that establishes the United States' role as non-jurisdictional caretaker. (Whoops, there goes Wong Kim Ark.)
But not illegal immigrants! They're the most distinct from tourists of any category non-citizens. The United States' jurisdiction over illegal immigrants is exactly that: jurisdiction.
If it's not jurisdiction, then it's on you to explain what it is, just like how Trumbull explained that for Indians-not-taxed, it's treaties.
Lynch v. Clarke.
You keep saying that M L, but it's so weird because of this other Trumbull quote you haven't responded to:
If Indians left their territorial reservations and went into random states, they would absolutely become subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
Pay no attention to the troll behind the slime: M L is misleading you once again by cherry-picking quotes. Senator Saulsbury goes on to explain that he's voting against the "except Indians-not-taxed" language because he thinks the amendment should apply to Indians!
He was embracing the breadth and extent of the effects of amendment, notwithstanding its narrow intent!
I'm seeing more comments noting Trump's lawlessness from posters I've not seen before lately.
It gives me some hope that the MAGA people on here are losing the American People.
The amplitude of the pendulum's swing in reaction to this shit...wow.
I figure DMN and I will start arguing again.
As a native English speaker, I can't think of a single time where anyone use the word "jurisdiction" as anything other than having the ability to exercise legal authority. A "jurisdiction" that is a geographical area, is an area where legal authority can be exercised by some governmental body. Such as Hazard County being the "jurisdiction" of the sheriff of Hazard County. When local police and the FBI clash over who has "jurisdiction" in a particular case, they are arguing over who has the authority to be in charge of the investigation. When a judge says that they do or don't have "jurisdiction" to hear and decide a case, they are talking about whether they have legal authority to hear and decide the case.
In none of those uses of the word, does "allegiance" have any relevance.
The only people arguing over what "subject to the jurisdiction" means are looking for an excuse to exclude some group of people from being citizens. The meaning is crystal clear to me.
If jurisdiction just means a geographical area, why didn't the 14A say that?
It doesn't "just mean a geographical area." That's why diplomats and invading soldiers are also excluded.
And illegals.
Nope. Under the 14th amendment, Congress lacks the power to exclude anyone from birthright citizenship. Only the exceptions that existed in 1868 count, and there was no such thing as "illegals" in 1868.
Seeing the arguments of people like Roger S is all I need to convince me of the intellectual bankruptcy of originalism. Whatever logic and valid legal theory that originalist scholars use, and whatever originalist judges and justices cherry pick from that for their decisions, originalism is used in politics as a fig leaf to be whatever the party needs for that particular issue. If it was more than a fig leaf, then this exact problem you bring up would be central to any originalist argument. How to reconcile the fact that the whole concept of "illegal" immigration didn't exist at the time of the 14th Amendment's ratification with a claim that the Citizenship Clause does not grant birthright citizenship to the children of "illegals".
This is example #879 of originalist arguments that try and mind-read the long-dead people that wrote and ratified the Constitution and its amendments to imagine how they would understand a modern problem that they couldn't have imagined. It makes it clear that the whole goal of the project of originalism was to provide that fig leaf in politics, not to do what its earliest proponents said it would do: provide a neutral method of interpretation that would be durable and resistant to political whims.
You are the one arguing that the 14A grants citizenship to people who were never intended to get citizenship.
Your circular reasoning is circular.
hat would be a category error. Schlafly is not an originalist, a lawyer, or a scholar. He's not purporting to do originalism, so nothing he says is a reflection on it one way or the other.
Is Roger S who you mean by Schlafly? Either way, it isn't whether Roger or any other Republican or conservative is an originalist that I am basing this on.
Partisans on the right that aren't legal scholars (that may or may not have any legal training) pull from originalist scholarship and opinions, like Lash's here, to craft political arguments that aren't rigorous legal scholarship. They often aren't even internally consistent. They don't have to be originalists themselves to do that. I am saying that the scholarly pursuit of originalism looks, to this lay person, to be a cover for partisan and ideological goals, and probably always was. It gives an air of scholarly legitimacy to whatever they want to happen.
Yes.
Schlafly is not an originalist, a lawyer, or a scholar.
Nor, apparently, particularly literate.
Correct; he's the one who keeps arguing that it doesn't violate Rule 11 to file briefs with fabricated citations, even after people specifically quoted him the applicable language.
There are only a couple of originalists on Scotus. I am expecting Scotus to rule on this, but mostly on non-originalist grounds.
Anything can be corrupted.
One advantage of originalism is that its corruption has to be done out in the open, where we can all see it.
If jurisdiction just means a geographical area...
Uh, try reading my comment again...
A basic question for Professor Lash: just because the parents may not be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, that doesn't mean their child is also not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
The 14A is a piece of shit and always has been. It should never have been ratified and only because of federal troops being posted in legislative chambers in the Southern states and the majority Northen states refusing to recognize democratically elected Southern representatives was it successfully ratified. This was not a normal ratification process. The purpose of the 14A was to make the newly freed slaves citizens and was never intended to be applied to others. While I have no issue with freeing slaves and making them citizens I am bothered by how the courts have twisted the original intent of the 14A; not to mention if Trump stationed federal troops in liberal state legislators heads would explode.
That's right, but unwinding the 14A is not so easy.
Then why did it say "all persons" rather than "newly freed slaves"?
...only because of federal troops being posted in legislative chambers in the Southern states and the majority Northen states refusing to recognize democratically elected Southern representatives was it successfully ratified.
This was the sign to me that Bunny495 isn't making a rational argument. The 14th Amendment was ratified. It was acknowledged as being part of the Constitution continuously ever since. Get over it. He apparently thinks that the political leaders of the Confederate states that had been in open rebellion against the Constitution and the United States for four years should have been able to just go right back into their places while there were still pockets of resistance and violence against the freed slaves. Maybe he really thinks that the wrong side won the Civil War.
He also apparently thinks that it's a good idea to describe them as "democratically elected" even though they were only elected because they kept a large share of their population from voting.
David Nieporent posted
"He apparently thinks"
While I am pleased you credit me with thinking I would never presume to try and guess what you (or anyone else) are/is thinking. I suggest you do the same.
Hey, if you're now disavowing your own egregious words, great.
Reading comprehension is your friend. No one with an IQ over room temperature defends how the 14A was ratified. Ignoring federal troops being in the same room where voting on the 14A is inexcusable and there is no way to sugarcoat it. Same goes for the Northen states not recognizing Southern pols who were elected. Much of your post is incorrect in terms of recognized history. As for your slurring me with the charge I think the wrong side won only shows how poor your argument is. Every legit historian agrees the biggest shock about the Civil War is how long it took the North to win given that the North had a three to two advantage in troop strength, massive advantages the ability to manufacture arms and ammunition, and an even larger advantage in logistics with way more railroad tracks and trains. The end result was never in doubt.
Pro tip: posting things like "He apparently thinks" and "Maybe he really thinks" is the sign of you lacking skills needed to make a good argument.
Pro tip: Leaving out the violence against Blacks and other efforts to prevent them from voting when you claim that the representatives of Southern states were "democratically elected" is not honest enough to qualify as a good argument.
I'm also glad that you think that trying to read the minds of someone else based on what they wrote is poor argumentation. Maybe you'll apply that to your own certainty about what the 14th Amendment was and wasn't intended to do.
Besides, I qualified my words, "He apparently thinks" and "Maybe he really thinks," as possible explanations for what you wrote here. I wasn't expressing any certainty, the way you are with people that have been dead for a century and a half.
Surprisingly, if you look into it, it actually is true that the 14th Amendment was never constitutionally ratified. This is an indisputable fact.
I suppose I dispute it, along with the Supreme Court.
What's your argument, quorum? Quorum in Congress is calculated from sworn "Members," so if there aren't any from a bunch of rebel states, too bad so sad. Amendments are made by those who show up.
https://law.ua.edu/wp-content/uploads/archive/law-review-articles/Volume%2053/Issue%202/Bryant.pdf
Are you serious? What a poorly written comment, with logic almost as bad as its prose.
There's nothing in there that's remotely "indisputable" or even "fact[ual]." It's just a bunch of breathless observations that lead nowhere. What exactly constitutional requirements do you think weren't met by 17?
Well, "The 14A is a piece of shit and always has been."
The fact that it was badly worded isn't too surprising.
There may have been a lot of Blacks who had not been slaves, and not full citizens either.
David Nieporent posted
The purpose of the 14A was to make the newly freed slaves citizens and was never intended to be applied to others
Then why did it say "all persons" rather than "newly freed slaves"?
Because the peeps who wrote it had shit for brains.
I guess this is of a piece with your whine above about people deducing what you think from the things you say. Maybe you should try reading what people actually said and at least start with the preliminary assumption that they meant it?
Dare I say 'assuming facts not in evidence'?
Apparently you do dare. Apparently you don't know what those words mean, though; you ust heard them somewhere and thought that repeating them would make you sound sophisticated.
Reading the Congressional Globe's eight pages indicated by the author leaves no other conclusion that the current erroneous interpretation of the 14th amendment on birthright citizenship is over. Oh Happy Days!!!
Yep. Just don't read anything else!
After reading Lash's supporting material, I'm more confident than ever that Birthright Citizenship for illegal immigrants will be 9-0 on the merits. The case against is so weak that not even Alito is gonna be willing to risk the long-term harm to whatever scholarly reputation he thinks he has left in order to use it as a fig leaf for covering a political dissent.
I do not share your confidence, although I suspect the Supreme Court will do everything in their power to duck a ruling on the merits.
I suspect Alito will dissent if he can get one person to join him. The question is whether he can convince anyone. I'm curious if Thomas will abandon his textualist principles to side with Alito.
The textualist position would be to give some real meaning to "subject to the jurisdiction", and not just make a citizen out of everyone born in the USA.
It has real meaning, and a pretty obvious one. It means subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
That was a bit circular...but US jurisdiction generally means (and meant) a place subject to the laws of the US.
I suspect the Supreme Court will do everything in their power to duck a ruling on the merits.
True, which won't be hard since Birthright Citizenship will win in every lower court. No need to ever grant cert.
True, but even if they do grant cert, they should be rejecting the EO on statutory grounds: that even if the constitution doesn't mandate birthright citizenship (spoiler alert: it does), the president has no authority to define/redefine it. Only Congress could.
That was sort of my thought. I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect there's some statute that codifies how to provide social security cards for children born in the United States even when their parents hold no lawful status. I'd imagine the Court could say that statute would have to be repealed by Congress.
It is not enough to be a person born in The United States for birthright citizenship under The Fourteenth Amendment to attach.
"Indians not taxed," and born in The United States were certainly "persons" under Section 1, but under Section 2 they were specifically excluded for purposes of congressional apportionment, a major right of United States citizenship. The clear implication is that "Indians not taxed" were not "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" sufficiently for birthright citizenship to apply to them under Section 1. The further implication is that the newborn offspring of non-citizen "Indians not taxed" were also insufficiently "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" for birthright citizenship to attach to them; otherwise the apportionment disability of Section 2 would automatically disappear in one generation. I don't discern that meaning or intent in Section 2. Rather, the non-citizen disability of the "Indian mother not taxed" would pass to her US-born offspring.
The modern analogy is a pregnant citizen of Guatemala/non-citizen of The United States who illegally crosses the Rio Grande to give birth in Texas being insufficiently "subject to the jurisdiction" of The United States herself for birthright citizenship to attach to her newborn who, like the offspring of the "Indian mother not taxed" is a "person" born in The United States.
Wow, you just argued yourself right out of a point. The Guatemalan mother is counted for apportionment. (Also, United States law applies to her, unlike your Indian-not-taxed.) So her baby gets citizenship.
Who knew! Everybody. Everybody knew.
There is no "modern analogy." It's Indians, not "people vaguely like Indians in some way." (Especially since illegal immigrants are not like Indians in any way.)
When trying to link this elsewhere, the preview display does not show the article, it shows a request for a survey.
So no link.