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Prof. Kurt Lash Responds to Keith Whittington on Birthright Citizenship
Keith posted yesterday "On the Original Meaning of Birthright Citizenship," discussing his new article on the subject; here's the abstract of the article:
The citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment entrenched birthright citizenship into the Constitution. Building on a recent revisionist scholarly literature, President Trump's executive orders have asserted that the scope of birthright citizenship should be understood to exclude children born on American soil to parents who are unauthorized to be in the country or authorized to be in the country for only a limited purpose and period. This asserted limitation of birthright citizenship is at odds with the original meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and the antecedent common-law rule of nativity that the language of the Fourteenth Amendment embodied and declared.
And here's the closing paragraph of his post:
Sometimes the conventional wisdom is simply correct and efforts at revisionist thinking are misguided. To my mind, this is such a case. A living constitutionalist could readily produce a rationale for the Trump administration's position, but I do not think there is a serious originalist case to be made for it.
Prof. Kurt Lash, who has taken a different view, passed along this response, which I'm glad to publish:
Birthright Citizenship: A short assignment for the serious.
Keith Whittington has posted a new paper on the 14thA Citizenship Clause. Although he thinks there is no "serious original case" for the "revisionist" view adopted by the Trump administration, he does not engage the evidence and arguments that I make in my paper forthcoming in the Notre Dame Law Review. That evidence sharply contradicts his account.
Whittington's approach has become standard among those opposing Trump's EO. These scholars argue that the meaning of the citizenship clause is found in antebellum common law and that the framing and ratification debates should be understood in a manner consistent with what they stipulate was the common law approach. My approach is the opposite. I argue that the original understanding of the citizenship clause is clearly articulated in the framing and ratification debates, that it reflected a view not reducible to older common law approaches, and that they understood the text as imposing the dual conditions of birthplace and allegiance.
Although the issue is bouncing around the lower courts, no court has "seriously" engaged recent originalist scholarship on the framing and ratification debates. That will change, I believe, in the coming months. In the meantime, I plan on staying in the game and defending my claim that Trumbull meant exactly what he said when he declared "what do we mean by 'subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?' Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means."
Critics of the allegiance reading insist that Trumbull's statement is an outlier, that his reference to "allegiance" really meant something other than "allegiance," and that "revisionist" reliance on this statement amounts to cherry-picking. To the degree that these claims are meant to dissuade you from actually reading the evidence, they are a transparent dodge. But the proof is in the pudding. Check the sources!
Hesitant to the read the thousands of pages that I and others are writing on this subject? Fair enough. There is a much faster way to get up to speed on the issue.
As the months go by, I predict this debate will increasingly focus on roughly seven pages in the Congressional Globe. On May 30, the Senate publicly debated a proposed addition of a citizenship clause to the joint committee's draft of the Fourteenth Amendment. In this debate, you will find Howard's opening statement, questions directed to Trumbull (reflecting his prior work on the citizenship clause of the Civil Rights Bill), pushback from other senators, and Trumbull's responses and clarifications. The debate (reported in newspapers) includes analysis of the provision's impact on Chinese immigrants, so-called "Gypsies," members of Indian tribes under Tribal government, and tribal members who refused to live under any treaty-recognized tribal government. The pages are found at Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess., 2890 to 2897.
Not too taxing an assignment. I believe those seriously trying to follow the scholarly debate will find them an eye opener. But, wait, don't stop reading quite yet! Just a bit more. You are now in position to compare how Whittington and I differ in our reading of these critical pages. Whittington presents his analysis at pp. 30-33 of his work. My reading can be found in my article at pp. 50-57. My evidence and arguments, by the by, have been posted at SSRN for months.
Finished? Great. Now let the serious originalist debate begin.
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I don't understand why the drafters of the language wouldn't have included a reference to allegiance or simply have copied language from the somewhat corresponding civil rights act. If its a condition precedent that must be met to be granted citizenship by birth; then seems like quite an oversight.
One of the rules of statutory construction is that you don't resort to so called legislative history if the words are capable of being understood and applied (paraphrasing).
One person's response in debate about what 'subject to the jurisdiction' means doesn't resolve the issue for me when other people were complaining that gypsies and chinamen or other undesirable people's babies would be citizens under the language used and then they kept the same language. So there is understanding that the language being as broad as it was would do what the naysayers didn't want it to do. But kept it.
So maybe instead of an origanlist vs originalist debate its more of a textualist vs originalist debate. Because other learned jurists have had no issue reading the words 'subject to the jurisdiction' and easily understanding what those words mean and frankly have always meant.
This seems spot on to me.
"I don't understand why the drafters of the language wouldn't have included a reference to allegiance or simply have copied language from the somewhat corresponding civil rights act."
Just read the Congressional debate then. There you will find considerable exposition of this exact question. Further, you fill find that nobody had any issue with understanding that the jurisdiction clause excluded those "subject to any foreign power" as the CRA did. The only point of discussion was on the "Indians not taxed" part of the CRA.
"One person's response in debate about what 'subject to the jurisdiction' means doesn't resolve the issue for me"
It's not just one person. You will find that multiple speakers addressed this, that it was foundational to the entire discussion, and that nobody contradicted it any way shape or form.
"when other people were complaining that gypsies and chinamen or other undesirable people's babies would be citizens under the language used and then they kept the same language. So there is understanding that the language being as broad as it was would do what the naysayers didn't want it to do. But kept it."
Please take note of the response to Cowan's rant. The response is that Cowan's comments are irrelevant. The Chinese and Gypsies are already citizens under current law, there is no racial distinction in the law, and the 14a is making absolutely no change in this regard. The racial distinctions for which Cowan was arguing did not have anything to do with "jurisdiction."
But that's Chicago's point. Everyone in these seven pages agrees that the amendment would apply to Chinese and Gypsies whether or not current law already applied. Even Trumbull says this about Indians!
Everything in the seven pages turns on "subject to the laws." Which is what "jurisdiction" means. Even Twelve Inch points out that Trumbull ends up defining "allegiance" in terms of not being subject to the laws of the United States.
Sorry M L, you've got effectively zilch here. I can't understand why you're going all in on this loser argument.
I agree with your point that textualism and originalism don't always point the same way, but here they do. The "originalists" aren't being even a bit originalist; they're plucking random statements out of the pre-ratification debates and just asserting that those alternative words actually do the job that the real words don't do, but without any support for the claim that the alternative words actually meant what they want them to have meant.
IOW, they say that "subject to the jurisdiction" can't mean what it sounds like because someone said it actually meant "allegiance." But they never actually show that allegiance meant something different. They just want to assume that it did.
"I'm glad to pass along this snarky bullshit response showing what a fucking joke conservative academia has become."
Upvote.
(guy who hasn't read the 7 pages)
I read the 7 pages. Jaypd is exactly right. Kurt must be expecting people not to take him up on his offer to read those pages. They make it exceedingly clear that Birthright Citizenship applies to all immigrants, whether "legal" or not.
Exceedingly clear? No, Birthright Citizenship does not apply to all immigrants, under any interpretation.
Well, strictly speaking it doesn't apply to any immigrants. Just to their children who were born here.
Wow, a not totally stupid comment for once
"I read the 7 pages"
Maybe, but you are a well-known low-IQ troll, so it doesn't help.
I'm actually surprised that you're still standing behind your "interpretation" of the seven pages. You must be trying really hard to find a cognitive straw to grasp. It simply can't be read to support your position unless you're either totally a) dishonest or b) brainwashed.
Roger is brainwashed, that's clear enough. Which one are you?
History and tradition
And this is the problem with originalism.
What, that there's objective evidence that you can look at an evaluate, like Congressional debates?
Essentially, yes. Just cherry-pick the evidence that supports your preferred outcome. Everybody does it. Just look at Bruen, it's the worst offender.
Originalists don't even start with the text anymore. They just go straight to their preferred evidence (for that question... the same Originalist may have different preferred evidence for a different question).
Ah, I see: At this point you've completely disconnected from reality, so there's nothing left to argue about. Oh, well.
In both Bruen and this case, the "Originalist" argument begins like this:
See where the Constitution says "militia" / "jurisdiction"? Ok ignore that, it's a typo, you can understand what they really meant by putting the Constitution down and looking over here at History & Tradition / Ratification Debates.
Shutdown opponent by saying they've become incapacitated. Mature. Cheap.
Proving once again (as though there were any doubt) that a lawyer can and will produce an argument for his side of the case, no matter what his side is.
Originalism was invented for the purpose of making arguments against settled interpretations. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." seemed clear enough for 150 years. But someone invented originalism, which encourages poring through reams of forgotten history to cherry-pick support for desired outcomes.
For 150 years, Scotus never said that children of illegals are citizens under the 14A.
That hardly supports your position. Until a few months ago, just about everybody (correctly) thought the issue had been conclusively resolved in Wong Kim Ark. It has been taken as a given in case after lower court case, and has not been challenged even where successfully doing so would have greatly helped the litigant's position. When nobody except a few cranks disputes something, that is pretty good evidence that it is indeed "the law."
When Scotus finally rules on 14A birthright citizenship, we will find out who is right.
This may seem pedantic, but when Scotus rules on 14A birthright citizenship, all we'll find out is what their ruling is.
They don't determine who is right. They don't even determine Constitutionality - otherwise they'd never be able to overturn their judgments (barring an intervening amendment, of course.) They give their best ruling, and the other branches give it force, but that's all it is.
Mind you, in this case I expect them to rule that those born in the US, barring the few stated exceptions, are US citizens. I also think that's correct. Doesn't change the fact that their ruling doesn't prove rightness for either side.
In any case, I suspect that Schlafly will still find a reason why their ruling doesn't count, if it goes against his beliefs.
For 200+ years, SCOTUS never said that the 2nd Amendment was an individual right.
Actually, every time Scotus referred to the 2A, it was as an individual right. The anti-individual right argument was only invented in about 1960.
They explicitly said which groups were not citizens under the 14th Amendment. Wong Kim Ark isn't an ambiguous opinion. It is a carefully reasoned opinion that openly lays out the test to apply.
"Proving once again (as though there were any doubt) that a lawyer can and will produce an argument for his side of the case, no matter what his side is."
Better proof of that is the wild flailing of those trying to argue on the other side of this issue.
Lol, look up "flailing" in the legal dictionary and it'll point to your recent inane and lengthy dissections of the minutiae of the grammatical curlicues of a smattering of statements that Trumbull made in and around the period of reconstruction.
(guy who hasn't read the 7 pages)
"These scholars argue that the meaning of the citizenship clause is found in antebellum common law and that the framing and ratification debates should be understood in a manner consistent with what they stipulate was the common law approach."
This is something I am noticing more and more. The idea that a law or amendment should be interpreted based on the status quo when (or before) the law was passed. But this is completely wrong. The entire point of passing laws or amendments is to change the status quo. Anything that came before the new law should have little to no value.
But the 14th amendment was not intended to change the status quo in the North, where it was purported that rights were already being respected. It was intended to change the status quo in the South, bringing it in line with the North.
The point is to enshrine in words some intent, whether to preserve or change the status quo.
If a law is to be understood, it must be understood by its context at the time. If it is to be legitimate, it must be passed by legislators who understand it at the time. To have a living interpretation which changes what a law does over time, is to have a law that was passed by people who did not understand it.
Living constitutionalism stands for the proposition that future judges can thwart the will of past legislators by mere reinterpretation, instead of having to legitimize their new laws by passing new legislation.
Living constitutionalism is a fraud which makes an even bigger mockery of the Rule of Law.
Ya, I do kinda don't like living constitutionalism for the reasons that you said. However the past does not always give us guidance for situations that they never could have conceived.
Then pass a new law, or add a new amendment. Don't short-circuit it with judges.
The past isn’t dead.
It’s not even “past”.
I just came up with that and I don’t want to hear a lot of Sound and Fury saying I didn’t
I don’t think that’s how living constitutionalism, best understood, works. If you want a straw man to rail against that’s a good idea of it though.
The best way I’ve heard it defended is akin to the biblical idea that the spirit of the law > the letter. So when they wrote about equal protection they weren’t thinking of gays (or black women) but the principle applies. Or when the grounds for shooting fleeing felons becomes less relevant (because the definition of felony expands greatly) the principle behind the rule lessens in authority.
Yes, the spirit as reinterpreted by the future for their own ends. It's still judges passing legislation without going through the legislature.
Any reason, if that new interpretation is so obvious, that it couldn't wait to convince the legislature? Yes, because they know they can't convince the legislature. So much for the Rule of Law.
The spirit of the law is often honored. So, the Fourth Amendment is honored in an open-ended way. But that alone isn't involved.
The "letter" of equal protection would include protecting gays and lesbians. The text is "the equal protection of laws." If they only wanted to protect certain people, they could have said so. The second section of the 14A has specific exemptions, for instance.
People argue that the text should be tied to the specific original understanding when the people who wrote and ratified it used open-ended language and repeatedly acknowledged that it would lead to unclear directions.
Who is not respecting the lawmakers here?
The Framers (down to 1992) gave us text for a range of people who swear/affirm to uphold the Constitution to apply. It is for us, the living. If people want the text to say something different, there is an amendment process available.
If I were Eugene I’d be embarrassed to pass along this “response”. Lash engages in “National Treasure” legal analysis where Birthright citizenship had a true meaning that was kept secret by the the drafters, and the consensus for the last century and a half was a collective mistake that can be rectified by letting Nicolas Cage interpret the secret clues.
Do you keep things secret by airing them in a Congressional debate?
And I don't think there's much argument that, when it came to the 14th amendment, we suffered from a long standing mistake; I think people call that "Jim Crow", the Bill of Rights was supposed to have been immediately incorporated, not starting after over 80 years. Given one long standing mistake about the meaning of the 14th amendment, is another so implausible?
I'm not saying he's right, mind you. But I think he's wrong for normal values of constitutional debate, and in the range where you sometimes win anyway if the politics are right.
Not sure what you are trying to say. Trumbull statements support birthright citizenship for all but the children of diplomats, tribal Indians, and those born in enemy territory. Nothing in the congressional debates supports any other interpretation.
Everything in the debates establishes that jurisdiction meant not having any foreign allegiance.
Correct. And everything in the debates established the Aliens in our country have no foreign allegiance while in our country. Oops. Guess you missed that.
Nope, they are ALL citizens of, and owe allegiance to, a different country. Do you really argue that illegal immigrants from, say, Mexico could not be drafted into the Mexican Army???? When American draft-dodgers went to Canada, they were still subject to the American draft. And were NOT subject to the Canadian military draft.
This issue came up during the debates and on Wong Kim Ark. Aliens, while here, have an obligation to follow our laws, not the laws of other countries. Mexico cannot violate our sovereignty by sending the police across the border to enforce their laws in our territory.
They also have obligations and allegiances to their home countries, which is why the 14A does not give citizenship.
Nope. No allegiance owed to their home countries. We don’t recognize the legitimacy of foreign law in our country. That’s why the congressional debates thought children of aliens were citizens if born here. All Senators agreed.
That's why the 14A uses the term jurisdiction.
Do you really argue that illegal immigrants from, say, Mexico could not be drafted into the Mexican Army????
Uh, yeah. What do you think would happen? Do you think we'd let the Mexican Army come into the country to pick them up?
I mean Trump might, but that's only because he's old and confused.
Not only is that not true, but as I noted above, that does nothing to establish that the narrow interpretation of the birthright clause is correct. All people here, legally or not, other than the handful of exceptions we all agree exist, owed allegiance to the U.S. while here.
And, what's the unifying factor between these groups? They're all children of the citizens of other sovereigns who happen to be IN the US without allegiance to the US.
The text doesn’t mention allegiance but does mention the IN. Seems to me in a tie goes to situation it’s clear where a textualist should go.
Allegiance is an archaic word that means the same thing as jurisdiction. If the government has jurisdiction, they owe allegiance.
(guy who hasn't read the 7 pages which have been public record for 160 years)
You know, just because a host of liberal screeching scholars declare something, doesn't mean it's true. Even if they do so for a number of years.
The Court has never ruled on this issue. And it was only in the 1960s that bureaucrats started implementing birthright citizenship as you conceive of it as a matter of course. Before that it was not a thing, see e.g. the 1930s repatriations.
The 1898 SCOTUS was hardly a liberal court when it ruled that Chinese born hear were citizens, despite the DOJ’s argument that they were born allegiant to the Emperor of China.
Maybe that 1898 court even thought that importing Chinese workers was a good thing. We have an immigration crisis today, and those 1898 errors need to be corrected.
You’re saying the quiet part out loud when you demand the case be overturned to achieve your policy objectives and not applying neutral principles of law to the case.
No, there is need to overturn those decisions, as they were limited to unusual circumstances.
Children born to Alien parents are not unusual circumstances.
First you said errors, now you say no need to overturn.
There are a lot of Scotus decisions with erroneous dicta that do not need to be overturned.
Except that, in 1892, immigration from China was illegal.
However that decision concerned a lawful permanent domiciled resident, as the court repeatedly emphasized.
Now do Slaughterhouse and Elk v Wilkins.
Illegal immigration was not a thing when the 14th was ratified. Neither was the concept that some pregnant woman could fly over, give birth to a new citizen, and fly back home, all in one or a few days.
The 14th says nothing about either condition. Any court decision on what they think it says on those two matters is just pure blarney.
Hoplophobes like to whine that modern semi-auto rifles are not covered by the 2nd Amendment because they had not been invented. But guns were, they did have repeating arms in 1791, and repeating arms were common in 1868. Illegal immigration was not, and the idea of crossing an ocean, giving birth, and crossing back in one day was not even plausible for fiction.
Then pass a new constitutional amendment recognising the change of circumstance, rather than reinterpret the existing one.
Reinterpreting a previous interpretation does not legitimize the previous interpretation. Are you agreeing or disagreeing, and with what?
That's right, the 14A says nothing about the kids of illegals. Whittington even concedes the point, and just makes up his own preferred legal principle.
It says every person born here is a citizen.
No it doesn't. It states a principle for exceptions to that.
So far I agree with Whittington, not Lash/Trump/etc, on what the exception means. But there's obviously exceptions.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
The “all” is the general principle.
?
The "and subject to" is the definite exception, so explicitly, the rule is not "every person born here is a citizen".
If you're just saying "every person born here is a citizen, unless included in the stated exception", OK I guess?
OK, let's go with your 2A illustration. And tease out the interpretation principle.
Just suppose for a sec that repeating firearms *didn't* exist till long after ratification(s).
I assume you agree: If the 2A said "personal carryable firearms", and someone said, "Any court decision on what they think the 2A says on repeating firearms is just pure blarney", they'd be wrong. Tough. It doesn't matter if "the idea of a gun that sprays hundreds of bullets per second was not even plausible for fiction".
Why? Because that law states a rule that unambiguously applies, even if modern scenarios couldn't have been anticipated. You'd need an amendment! Even if you could time-travel and ask every ratifier "would you want this to apply to those guns?" and they said "no". Tough. That's not the law they passed.
OTOH, if you suppose "arms" didn't have a clear definition that definitely applies to repeating firearms... Maybe your "blarney" comment would apply there. At least, it's harder. Maybe we'd even have to conclude something like, "originalism doesn't always settle a question". Whatever.
I guess I'm asking: Can you agree that saying "Illegal immigration was not a thing when the 14th was ratified" (and the rest of your first paragraph) doesn't settle whether "it's blarney", *unless* the rule in the 14th (like the "jurisdiction" stuff) lacks a clear enough definition to know how it applies to the scenarios they didn't anticipate?
Umm, "bear" does mean "carryable".
I know. And repeatable firearms existed. Sorry I was unclear, "if the 2A said" was part of the hypothetical. I was positing wording that unambiguously would include machine guns, even if someone tries to say "arms" isn't clear, even if the drafters couldn't have conceived of them.
Hopefully that helps.
So again: Can you agree that saying "Illegal immigration was not a thing when the 14th was ratified" (and the rest of your first paragraph) doesn't settle whether "it's blarney", *unless* the rule in the 14th (like the "jurisdiction" stuff) lacks a clear enough definition to know how it applies to the scenarios they didn't anticipate?
The original meaning of the constitution cannot be changed by future controversies.
Amen.
I have been banging this drum for several years now since I read those 7 eye-opening pages.
Just yesterday I was commenting and I started to say, you know the record is rather brief just a few pages!
Nobody ever links the document either. This post should be the starting point for discussion.
Yes, they were not making citizens out of children of illegals or birth tourists.
I just read the seven pages, and they say exactly what Professor Whittington writes on the topic:
It's completely clear reading those debates, and Trumbull's comments in particular, that he is saying Indians would be excluded because they wouldn't be subject to US laws--he specifically makes the point that, e.g. the US wouldn't have the jurisdiction to prosecute its laws over either "wild" Indians or those who were parts of Indian nations that we had treaties with and treated as sovereign. But all of the discussion about allegiance is in this context--whether or not US law applies to people, not whether or not they are somehow loyal to the country.
"he is saying Indians would be excluded because they wouldn't be subject to US laws"
Only inside their territories, though. Outside of their territories, they would be subject to US laws--just like any other foreigner.
If you read a bit more carefully, Trumbull says the reason Indians are excluded from jurisdiction is that they owe allegiance to a quasi-foreign sovereign. The fact that they are not subject to US laws (within their territory) is used to illustrate that their tribes are (quasi) foreign powers. Indians are not subject to US laws while in Indian territory, just like Mexicans are not subject to US laws while in Mexico (Trumbull makes this comparison specifically). Thus, Indians are sufficiently foreign to be considered not subject to jurisdiction, even if they were temporarily outside of the reservation--just as a Mexican national temporarily present within the US would not be subject to jurisdiction (though both the Indian and the Mexican are of course temporarily subject to US laws in such a circumstance).
I responded to Whittington here: https://reason.com/volokh/2025/08/25/on-the-original-meaning-of-birthright-citizenship/?comments=true#comment-11177322
This is wrong (emphasis added):
"The critical point accepted on all sides in the congressional debate in 1866 was that Indians born on tribal lands were foreigners to the United States."
It should be:
The critical point accepted on all sides in the congressional debate in 1866 was that Indians who belonged to a tribe (regardless of birth location) were foreigners to the United States.
First, to the extent you're correct it proves the general point that none of this discussion can be construed to limit birthright citizenship to aliens, illegal or otherwise, in the modern context. At the time of the debate, within the territory of the United States, there were effectively a bunch of sovereign nations, and the framers did not want to extend birthright citizenship into those nations even though they were within the United States. But long ago, that particular distinction was done away with and all of those Indians became citizens as well. And the underlying premise: that there are parts of the US where US law doesn't extend, does not in any way support the case that birthright citizenship doesn't reach aliens in places where US law is controlling.
But more generally, the essence of Trumbull's argument is simply that the Indians aren't subject to US law, and this is the
Aliens in the US can be sued. If they break laws, they can be prosecuted and go to jail. That's what Trumbull meant by "subject to the jurisdiction of the US" and nothing in those seven pages contradicts the modern notion of birthright citizenship in any way.
You've missed the point.
Trumbull very explicitly explains that tribal Indians, within their territories, are like Mexicans in Mexico.
They are not subject to US laws within their sovereign lands.
Therefore, they are foreign and have an allegiance to a foreign entity.
Therefore, they are not subject to US jurisdiction in the sense used here, which requires exclusive allegiance.
This is true even though both are subject to US laws and courts while temporarily present in the US (and, in the case of Indians, outside the reservation).
Okay, now find the part where he or anyone else says that Indians born in the US outside of Indian-controlled lands wouldn't be subject to birthright citizenship. The only thing any of this discussion proves is that there were effectively a bunch of foreign countries inside the United States and that people born in those little countries weren't intended to become citizens under the 14th Amendment, just as people born in Mexico or China also wouldn't become citizens under the 14th amendment.
The debate actually makes clear that if Indians move into the parts of US territory considered to be under the jurisdiction of the US, that they would become citizens. In fact, Trumbull's chief reason for opposing the addition of language about untaxed Indians to Section 1 of the 14th Amendment is that he doesn't think that whether or not Indians become citizens should be contingent on whether or not they actually pay taxes. On page 127, the debate makes it clear that if the US were to exert jurisdiction over Indians by taxing them that the 14th amendment would make them citizens.
There's simply no suggestion anywhere in the debate that anyone born in areas governed by US law wouldn't become citizens under the 14th Amendment, and a lot of language that indicates the common understanding of the Amendment is correct.
Is there evidence of a historical practice of that? An Indian and his 8 month pregnant wife leave the reservation temporarily. She goes into early labor and gives birth to a child. The birth is off the reservation.
Was the Indian child a citizen by birth? The answer to that question seems to answer this one almost by a perfect analogy.
If an Indian left the reservation in the late 1800s, could he have been prosecuted under state or federal law for crimes he may have committed while off the reservation? Could he be sued for a tort committed?
If yes, how is this different than what M L is saying?
What is the evidence that babies born here to illegal immigrants do not have allegiance to the US? These kids who grow up speaking English in American schools are still harboring loyalties to the Vietnamese government?
The Lash argument makes sense in the context of French fur traders setting up camp in Minnesota.
That's not what's happening today.
The parents do not so they did not acquire citizenship at birth.
Why don’t they have allegiance?
The parent's allegiance is to whatever country they are from until they are naturalized here.
Nope. They have access to our courts. They are bound by our laws. That means they have allegiance to us.
This definition of "allegiance" comes across loud and clear in the infamous "seven pages."
If I travel to the UK on vacation, do I owe them "allegiance"? I know I have to follow their laws and otherwise behave myself, but allegiance seems a bit much.
The parents do not so they did not acquire citizenship at birth.
This rule you made up is neither in the text, nor in the debate.
People forget that the debate was about the large population of Indians (and gypsies, Chinese, etc) already born. The discussion in the congressional record was about whether these already born people would become citizens.
This is made obvious if you leave out the parts of debate the "allegiance" fans like to skip. Trumbull and others state reasons why some Indians don't have it: they weren't prosecuted for murders committed on their lands, they lived by their own regulations, they were not subject to taxation.
The main point here is those were all attributes of the Indians under discussion as potential citizens. NOT THE INDIAN'S PARENTS. Trumbull wasn't talking about their parents, he never mentioned parents.
It also needs to be pointed out that newborns with illegal alien parents, once they're capable, would be prosecuted in US courts if they commit a murder, would be expected to follow our laws, and would be subject to taxes. All the stuff that Trumbull said defined allegiance.
"Originalism" should simply be renamed as "resultism." If the text states one thing we don't like, we revert to "originalism" and pull out the oujia boards to know what Thomas Jefferson really meant. It's a silly method of legal analysis. If they wanted it to say "allegiance" they probably should have wrote that. To go back 200 years and claim that "well, we know what they meant" is absurd.
Resultism - no that's the other side, the non-originalists.
Yeah, he is just ignoring how libs ran SCOTUS from 1938 until 2020
Whataboutism.
Not at all, its a correction to saying ""Originalism" should simply be renamed as "resultism" when that applies to "living constitutionalism".
All methods of constitutional interpretation are "resultism," to some extent. What is laughable is originalism's pretensions to objectivity.
I see several people shitting on originalism because two (purported) originalists *gasp* disagree. Yet, as always, those people ignore that the interpretive alternatives would allow the very thing they likely oppose--namely, there's no reason why the modern generation could not interpret the 14th Amendment to allow an extremely narrow definition of birthright citizenship.
For some reason, there's a belief that these things will always go in one direction towards a certain politically preferred outcome. But without some historical grounding, there's no reason why that's true. If a new generation thinks burning at the stake isn't cruel and unusual, then there's nothing to stop that punishment from being administered. If a new generation thinks "press" means only an actual printing press, then that's the new meaning. But that would only mean the Constitution means nothing, because if it can mean anything at any given time it has no meaning at all. It would defeat the entire point of a written, codified constitution, and also undermines democratic government--which is another thing these same people constantly complain is being undermined.
Two biologists might disagree about the expected results of natural selection. Or two Shakespeare scholars might disagree about the meaning of a particular passage in one of his plays. But their disagreement about the applications doesn't undermine the legitimacy of natural selection as a theory or the field of Shakespeare studies. And it certainly doesn't mean that one of the two scholars isn't ultimately correct just because the other disagrees.
interpretive alternatives would allow the very thing they likely oppose
Which alternatives do you have in mind?
Living constitutionalism, pragmatism, economic theory, natural law, just to name a few. All of them can be used to justify saying that under modern circumstances the children of illegal or temporary aliens can be denied birthright citizenship. Despite a few outliers, the case for that is much weaker under originalism, especially originalist models that give heavy weight to precedent.
Despite a few outliers, the case for that is much weaker under originalism
I don't think that's true.
originalist models that give heavy weight to precedent.
Baude's positive turn, those are rare.
I'm not anti-originalist. Or at least I don't think it necessarily worse than other methods of constitutional interpretation. I just don't think it's better, for all the rhetoric of originalists.
Originalism has it's virtues. Being some how better than other methods at avoiding outcome-oriented reasoning is not one of them.
This issue, and the scholarships/posts about it, are great examples of why.
If "jurisdiction" can mean something other than jurisdiction, then why can't "allegiance" mean something other than allegiance?
Maybe it could. Do you have evidence that it did?
In the 13th century "awful" meant "full of awe" or "inspiring wonder or reverence."
Toilet once meant a lady getting dressed and ready for the day. Language changes.
But the law doesn’t unless acted upon. That’s why sticking with the original public meaning and context is so important. That way, “domestic violence” means what the Founders intended rather than what we use the term for. See U.S. Const. art IV, sec. 4.
The notion that there existed a single "original public meaning" is just wrong. Different people had different ideas about what the language meant, right from the beginning. As an example, look at the debate in the first Congress about who had the power to remove cabinet members. Even people who had been present at the Constitutional Convention disagreed about that.
Therefore, we should just forget about original meaning, and do whatever we want. Right?
Sure, the self-same Senate debate.
Birthright revisionists focus on Trumbull's
but ignore the immediately following
And to be doubly sure, shortly later:
So rather than using jurisdiction to mean allegiance he seems to be using allegiance to mean jurisdiction, in the sense of "having a duty to obey the law". Diplomats, invading armies, and treaty Indians in 1866 didn't have that duty, but other foreign visitors did.
Sigh.
You do understand that tribal Indians were subject to US laws and courts if they stepped foot outside of their territories - correct?
Trumbull explains that Indians within their territories are like Mexicans in Mexico. In both cases, they are not subject to US laws in their sovereign lands. Thus in both cases, they have allegiance to a foreign sovereign. Thus in both cases, they are not subject to US jurisdiction. Yet in both cases they are, of course, subject to US laws while temporarily present in the US (and, in the case of Indians, outside the reservation).
Do you understand that if tribal Indians left their territories, they were no longer "Indians-not-taxed" and their children would be citizens, just like Mexicans in the United States?
Trumbull says:
He uses Colorado in his examples instead of New York, but still... you're just wrong again, M L.
Is "allegiance" emanating from a penumbra?
Anyway, this is my favorite quote from the seven pages, a little bit abbreviated:
He's talking about you guys, M L and Roger S!
I do also enjoy the same senator making fun of the racist Pennsylvanian's misuse of "invasion..." just like today!
Also Gypsies telling fortunes : Haitians eating the pets.
But why all this talk about Gypsies? I have lived in the United States for now many a year, and really I have heard more about Gypsies in the last two or three months than I have heard before in my life. It cannot be because they have increased so much of late. It must be that the Gypsy element is to be added to our political agitation, so that hereafter the negro alone shall not claim our entire attention.
Just replace Gypsy with trans and negro with gays and you have today's right-wing equivalent. The gays / negros got their rights, so the bigots have to move on to a new target. Nothing new under the sun.
(I also like his subtle version of "If you, as a Caucasian, have such 'high' qualities, then why you such a racist fool!")
Lash chooses an interesting spot to stop quoting Trumbull:
" What do we mean by "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?" Not owing allegiance to any- body else;. That is what it means. Can you sue a Navajoe Indian in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means. We make treaties with them. If we want to control the Navajoes, or any other Indians of which the Senator from Wisconsin has spoken, How do we do it? Do we pass a law to control them? Are the subject to our jurisdiction in that sense? Is it not understood that if we want to make arrangements with the Indians to whom he refers we do it by means of a treaty?"
Exactly. Even if we were to for some reason accept "owing allegiance" as any kind of bar, it would mean "owing allegiance" to the exclusion of US jurisdiction... the way a diplomat, or an invading soldier, or an Indian-not-taxed is actually responsive to a foreign sovereign, in just the way that immigrants aren't.
What is interesting about that?
By pointing out that Indians were not subject to US laws *while within their territories,* Trumbull was illustrating that the tribes were foreign powers. He specifically likened them to Mexicans, who were of course not subject to US laws, while in Mexico. Trumbull was explaining that Indian tribes are sufficiently foreign such that tribal Indians owed a foreign allegiance. And any foreign allegiance meant that you were not subject to US jurisdiction (even though you would, of course, be subject to US laws temporarily while present in the US or in the case of Indians, off the reservation).
This is a great catch. For the same reason I can sue an illegal alien who hits me with his car, he is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, namely, the laws apply to and can be acted upon against him.
Ugh.
Anyone who thinks that this is interesting or a "catch" has not even begun to grok the ratification debates.
So, if a tribal Indian hit you with his horse in 1870, you could sue him. Just like you can sue an illegal alien today who hits you with his car.
Depending on where the incident occurred, of course.
If it occurred on sovereign tribal territory, in the case of the Indian, or Mexico or Honduras or something, in the case of the illegal immigrant . . . then no, you could not sue them in US courts.
I don't understand why you don't see how this completely undermines your position.
If an Indian-not-taxed hits you within the US, can you sue in US courts? Only subject to treaty provisions.
If a diplomat hits you within the US, can you sue in US courts? Only subject to treaty provisions.
If an invading soldier hits you within the US, can you sue him in US courts? Only subject to treaty provisions.
If an illegal immigrant hits you, can you sue them in US courts? Yes! No treaty necessary.
Incorrect. Tribal Indians were the same as other foreign nationals in terms of being subject to US laws while they were, let's say, visiting New York City. They were both subject to US laws generally. In both cases, the procedure involved could be influenced by treaties the US may have agreed to that covered such occurrences - or not.
So? If an Indian moved to New York and had a kid, that kid would be a United States citizen, just like the child of an illegal Mexican immigrant.
I haven't yet read the seven pages linked by Prof. Lash, though I intend to do so. For now, though, a question arises concerning the "owing allegiance" business.
Suppose that I'm a resident of another country, and that I flee when that country's government is overthrown, by violence and contrary to that country's laws. I renounce my citizenship in that country, whose new government has never offered me any sort of protection, and might cheerfully execute me if they could lay hands on me. Indeed, let's go a step further: What if the coup had been followed by a civil war, with multiple claimants to the leadership? Do I "owe allegiance" to whichever warlord is currently in control of the most land, or to my home city, or to the capital? Or do I somehow owe allegiance to a certain piece of the Earth's surface, regardless of the legitimacy, illegitimacy, or even nonexistence of the government that currently controls it?
And if, under circumstances such as these, I flee to the U.S. and there give birth, can it really be said that the ensuing child owes any sort of allegiance to the country from which I fled? At least in this sort of situation, the owes-allegiance argument seems to weigh rather strongly in favor of birthright citizenship.
That are people who are stateless. Happens rarely, but it does happen.
So, children of US citizens that have dual citizenship are not US citizens? Trumbull can be forgiven for not thinking this through, since dual citizenship wasn't a thing back then. But Lash shouldn't be.
Of course, "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" is not at all the same thing as "not owing allegiance to anybody else" and you don't need a degree in formal logic to see that. As someone pointed out in the previous thread, Whittington basically stated that "Water is wet."
That's right, children of those claiming dual citizenship are not US citizens. That is another issue that will eventually have to go to Scotus.
The Constitution might not be suicide pact but apparently the 14A is one.
1. It is nuts to say that the political allegiance of a baby is the same of their parents.
2. It is undisputed that in 1868 after 14A was ratified the children of all immigrants were automatically citizens. Since it was true then it must be true now. Congress can not pass a law to create a subset of a population and then deny that subset constitutional rights.
1. It is nuts to say anything else.
2. Most of the current debate is not even about the children of immigrants.
1. A baby doesn't have any clue about what it would mean to owe allegiance to a nation, since it won't even understand those words for years. That is why it is silly to think about the "allegiance" a baby would have. A baby born to foreigners, but orphaned and raised by Americans can't owe allegiance to anything. It would owe allegiance to the U.S., once the child was old enough to understand what that means and was able to make conscious choices that relate to the what nation they felt affinity towards. If they choose, at that time, to see themselves according to the nation of their birth parents rather than the ones that raised them, then they would be renouncing their citizenship and the allegiance that they owe to the U.S.
Most of the current debate is not even about the children of immigrants.
2. Give me a break. The current debate is entirely centered around the children of immigrants not legally present in the country. Some extremists, perhaps you, would even like to see the children of green card holders denied birthright citizenship. But I have not seen anyone bring up this topic without it being entirely a question about the children of immigrants of some kind or another.
I've long respected Kurt's work, but I think Keith has the better argument here (though I think he ought to address the Gypsy language).
I read these pages. There's one dude who says "what about the Chinese and Gypsies? I don't want them to become citizens and this will make them" and the Senator from CA says, "yeah, so what?" and that's the end of the story. Not one other person contradicts that reading that they will become citizens. Even the opponent knew what this meant.
And the entire rest of the debate is about what to do about the fact that, just like the Chinese and the Gypsies, it appears that natives will also become citizens, so maybe we ought to exclude them. And Howard's position (over and over, which wins out) is that these folks are like their own country IN OUR BORDERS and they make their OWN LAWS IN OUR BORDERS. The most telling part is where he says if one murders another, they deal with it, not us. And they talk about making treaties with them in our borders and when we pass laws we have to use force against them. That's just not about allegiance, that's about who has jurisdiction about regulating these folks, and it's not the US.
How, in your mind, does the discussion of Chinese and Gypsies help inform the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" ?
Sen. Cowan expressed that he would prefer to discriminate against the Chinese on the basis of race. Meanwhile, he had no problem with German immigrants getting citizenship.
His comments had nothing to do with "jurisdiction" at all, nor allegiance, nor anything relevant to the citizenship clause whatsoever. Those who responded to him pointed out that his comments had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Nobody has ever argued, today or back then or any time in between, that the citizenship clause discriminates between German and Chinese immigrants.
So what in the world is making people think this discussion is relevant?
I've raised three babies and can testify that they bear allegiance to no man. If "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means "allegiance," then no one is a citizen at birth.
I jest somewhat, but one big problem with the "allegiance" argument is that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" refers to the person "born in the United States," not to his or her parents. Obviously, then, it can't mean allegiance.
In 1866, some of the freed slaves had been born in Africa (the slave trade wasn't outlawed by Congress until 1808). Were their children born in the United States citizens by birth or not?
That’s who the Amendment applied to you Twit
"I do not presume that any one will pretend to disguise the fact that the object of this first section is simply to declare that negroes shall be citizens of the United States. There can be no other object in it, I presume, than a further extension of the legislative kindness and beneficence of Congress toward that class of people." - Senator Saulsbury
But how is that accomplished? There is nothing in the text of the Citizenship Clause that mentions the freed slaves or others of African descent that had been denied citizenship prior to the 14th Amendment. You're acting like the intent is what matters, not the text itself.
It is accomplished by the US choosing to exercise jurisdiction over them, and also implicitly acknowledging the dissolution of any prior allegiances. The right to renounce allegiances was of course the basis of the declaration of independence. It was also enshrined, concurrently with the 14a, in the Expatriation Act of 1868, as "a natural and inherent right of all people" - regardless of what a foreign government might say and notwithstanding the British common law rule diametrically opposed. That Act further provided, "that any declaration, instruction, opinion, order, or decision of any officers of this government which restricts, impairs, or questions the right of expatriation, is hereby declared inconsistent with the fundamental principles of this government."
Pay no attention to the troll behind the slime: M L is misleading you once again by cherry-picking quotes. Senator Saulsbury goes on to explain that he's voting against the "except Indians-not-taxed" language because he thinks the amendment should apply to Indians!
He was embracing the breadth and extent of the effects of amendment, notwithstanding its narrow intent!
I'm seeing more comments noting Trump's lawlessness from posters I've not seen before lately.
It gives me some hope that the MAGA people on here are losing the American People.
The amplitude of the pendulum's swing in reaction to this shit...wow.
I figure DMN and I will start arguing again.