The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Mail-In Ballots
Another day, another unconstitutional Executive Order on the way?
Today's Con Law I exam question:
The President issues* an "Executive Order" prohibiting the use of mail-in ballots and automatic voting machines in all federal elections, nationwide. Discuss the possible constitutional problems that such a move may entail. 10 points.
* The President has not, actually, issued such an Executive Order; he has indicated, however, that he intends to do so, and the White House has indicated that the E.O. is in the process of being drafted. [see here or here]
Let's do a little exam issue-spotting on this one, shall we? If I'm grading your answers, I expect you to raise two pretty obvious constitutional problems here.
You should start with the relevant Constitutional text (Art. I, Sec. 4):
"The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators."
From that, two issues sort of jump right out at you, no?
- The State legislatures are expressly given the power, in the first instance, to "prescribe" the "time, place, [or] manner of holding [federal] elections." This E.O. appears to be an attempt to do that; it would certainly affect the "manner" in which elections for federal officers are held, and probably the "time" and "place" of those elections as well (to the extent that millions of people rely on mail-in ballots in order to vote early (time) and when they are out-of-state (place)). As such, it violates Art I Sec. 4..
- The federal government is given the power to "make or alter" the States' time/place/manner regulations, but that power is expressly granted to Congress - not to the President. The President, acting unilaterally via an Executive Order, has no power to compel the States regarding their rules about the time/place/manner of those elections.
I'm only awarding 10 points for this question because it is too damn easy. This EO is close to being laughably unconstitutional. Any first-year law student who doesn't see that is really asleep at the switch. It's the sort of thing that only a law professor would dream up, too ridiculous to contemplate in the real world. It's a gimme, just setting you up for the more complex interpretive questions to come later in the exam.
What does this say about our President, and about his legal advisers? It says - once again - that they don't give a damn about whether or not what they're doing is, or is not, constitutional. Unless they all flunked Con Law I, which I doubt, anyone the President might conceivably consult for a legal opinion on the constitutionality of what he wants to do -- from the Attorney General, the Solicitor General, the White House Counsel, and the Director of the Office of Legal Counsel, to the lowliest legal intern at the DOJ -- would surely know that he doesn't have the power to do what he wants to do, and that at some point a court, quite possibly the Supreme Court, will issue a final judgment to that effect and the Order will be of no further force and effect.
But in the meantime, . . . In the meantime, he does whatever he wants to do and accomplishes whatever he wants to accomplish. It's very much an "in the meantime" strategy, and it's working very well thus far. He'll issue the Order, and then he will have his Executive agencies issue regulations designed to scare States into complying with it - cutting off their highway funds, or their Medicaid reimbursements, or their FEMA grants, if they don't comply with the Order. The matter will of course be litigated immediately. But given all of the ways that the government can slow things down - the jurisdictional and standing challenges, the challenges to class certification, the motions to disqualify or dismiss, the requests for stays, the appeals of adverse rulings in any or all of the foregoing - it will be, at a minimum, a year or so before the Supreme Court says, finally, "Of course you're not allowed to do this; there is no other remotely plausible way to read Art. I Sec. 4."
And by that time, if he and his advisers get their timing right, the midterm elections will have come and gone, and millions of people will have had their election rights abridged by unconstitutional executive action. Which is, of course, the intended result.
So that's what it says about Trump and his legal team.
And what does it say about the country? That we now have a President who - I know I'm being repetitive, but if anything bears repetition, it's this - doesn't care whether his actions comply with the Constitution, and it barely merits a mention for a few days in the infosphere and then disappears, a rock dropped in the ocean. I get it: There's no point to keep talking about it, over and over again. But this is a blog about the important legal issues of the day, and failing to talk about this feels a little too close to complicity for my taste.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
DP;dr;
mulched. Don't recall seeing that name before. Muted for having nothing to say, and for proclaiming pride in having no basis on which to not say it. Life's too short to waste time on such a waste of pixels.
But I do appreciate mulched for making that so obvious, so quickly.
But not too short to type in such a lengthy comment.
Lengthy? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You seem to have pretty low standards.
One-time-only notification seems fair. You want lengthy, just scroll down to some of my other comments.
On the one hand, mulched's six character comment was pretty worthless and did not add to any material discussion of the post's validity or lack thereof. On the other hand, you wasted six sentences ranting about it - while also adding nothing substantive to the discussion. Maybe if you're going to complain about other people wasting your valuable reading time, you shouldn't commit the same sin yourself.
It was a witty variation on TL:dr. Dismissal is all Post's posts deserve.
Witty? Someone else with low standards. It's a really common cliché for several Reason authors' articles over on the main site.
"It's a really common cliché for several Reason authors' articles over on the main site."
It is new to me. Do not go to that wretched hive of scum and villainy.
I think it would be more accurate to describe such an EO as a nullity than as unconstitutional. The president can command the tides to roll back if he wants without violating the constitution; it's just that such an order would be a meaningless piece of paper with no legal effect.
To be sure, it depends who the order is purported to be directed to. If he orders states not to use mail-in ballots, it's as I described it. If he orders, say, the AG to take legal action against states that use mail-in ballots, that would be unconstitutional.
How is that not true for all unconstitutional laws?
A better constitutional question: Is it an order or an old man shouting at a cloud? If state officials ignore the order, what happens? Does anybody have standing to have its constitutionality decided?
Maybe we should wait for the text of the order to assign essays.
Naturally, if state officials ignore the order, the administration will ignore the results.
Is it an order or an old man shouting at a cloud?
"Old man shouting at a cloud" is far too generous.
I wonder what the Trumpists would think if Biden had issued this order. You really have to read it to appreciate how demented it is. He also wants to ban,
Highly “Inaccurate,” Very Expensive, and Seriously Controversial VOTING MACHINES,
Lie
We are now the only Country in the World that uses Mail-In Voting. All others gave it up because of the MASSIVE VOTER FRAUD ENCOUNTERED.
Lie
Remember, the States are merely an “agent” for the Federal Government in counting and tabulating the votes. They must do what the Federal Government, as represented by the President of the United States, tells them, FOR THE GOOD OF OUR COUNTRY, to do.
Not so much a lie as an astonishing display of ignorance.
Democrats are virtually Unelectable without using this completely disproven Mail-In SCAM. ELECTIONS CAN NEVER BE HONEST WITH MAIL IN BALLOTS/VOTING, and everybody, IN PARTICULAR THE DEMOCRATS, KNOWS THIS.
Horseshit, lie, etc.
Note the capitalization. Trump would have failed high school English, maybe even junior high, if he turned in a paper like that.
That's not exactly true. Voting machines were very expensive. Fox had to pay almost $800 million dollars, and Newsmax just agreed to pay $67 million, for lying about those voting machines.
Can a President tell a state how to conduct an election? I doubt it. As usual, Trump is right on the issues, and wrong on implementation.
Mail-in ballots are the second-worst form of voting ever invented, wholly unsuited to any context except as a last resort.
Consider: mail-in ballots are not private. This alone should be enough to send them straight to the bottom of the pile. Strike One. Mail-in ballots are not secure; there is no chain of custody through the US Mail. Strike Two. The US Mail is not a guaranteed delivery service. Strike Three. If a mistake is made on a mail-in ballot, they usually cannot be corrected, the ballot must be rejected. Strike Four. They are the most expensive form of balloting. Strike Five. They are also the slowest form of balloting. Strike Six. California, for example, needs a full MONTH to certify its elections, because of its wholesale mail-in balloting. And, lastly, because mail-in ballots can be deposited in collection boxes, they are trivially easy to stuff. Strike Seven.
So there you have it. Mail-in balloting is the devil's own favorite form of voting, and Trump is quite right to want to reform its use.
But using an EO is obviously just theater.
Active duty military and US citizen living abroad also have a right to vote.
Certainly. Absentee voters who cannot vote in person can use one of several alternative methods, including mail. Mail-in balloting is the last resort.
Why should US citizens living abroad have a right to vote in elections for a state that they do not live in?
Assumes they've left the US permanently. Many are abroad for work.
Why are they subject to state and federal income taxes?
I answered below. They are subject to federal income taxes because they are US citizens. If they are not residents of any state, they are not subject to state income taxes.
They should not be subject to taxes on any income earned outside of the US that stays outside of the US.
Nice idea, but not the law. It's not even easy to escape New York State income taxation, and it's well-nigh impossible to escape federal income taxation. I guess you want to add "no representation" to the taxation.
Worth noting that the U.S. is one of the few countries that taxes its non-resident citizens on worldwide income.
Take it up with Congress.
Indeed, while a US citizen living abroad is still a US citizen, he is not a resident of any state. Hence, nothing to vote for. Even in a presidential election, voters are technically voting for electors from their states.
Servicemen and women, however, are considered residents of their home states, as they will return there when discharged.
Under your model, why does someone living (permanently) abroad forfeit state residency but not federal residency? The far easier (and more fair) rule is that if you are taxed by a jurisdiction, you deserve to be allowed to vote in that jurisdiction.
It's not my model, it's the law as it currently stands.
There is no such thing as "federal residency." There is US citizenship. A citizen who moves abroad is still a US citizen. Who has to pay US taxes as such. US Citizens are taxed because they are citizens, not residents of the US. (There are some exemptions and deductions to avoid double taxation, but in principle the person is subject to federal taxes.)
A citizen living abroad does NOT have to pay state income taxes, as he or she is not a resident of any state. If he or she owns property in a state, he or she might have to pay property tax, but that is not a function of residence or citizenship. Foreign citizens who own property have to pay the same tax.
No, taxation is not based on citizenship. Foreign citizens residing in the US are taxed exactly the same as you or me.
By the way, your flat statement that "[a] citizen living abroad does NOT have to pay state income taxes" is untrue. Whether and when expats must file and pay state taxes is a very complicated question of state-specific law. But more than a few states do assert jurisdiction over you based on the last state you lived in before moving abroad regardless of whether you ever intend to return. For tax purposes, it is quite difficult to renounce your state citizenship without transferring it to another state.
"No, taxation is not based on citizenship."
Wrong. A US citizen living abroad is taxed on his income. That IS the law.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/us-citizens-and-residents-abroad-filing-requirements
(Interestingly, it mentions "residents." So I assume that means someone with a greencard that lives abroad has to pay taxes.)
"Servicemen and women, however, are considered residents of their home states, as they will return there when discharged."
Nit: I wouldn't bet on that last part. My father enlisted from Illinois right after Pearl Harbor and spent the next 27 years at sea or in Japan/Korea/South Carolina/Germany/Virginia. The only time(s) he went back to Illinois was visiting remaining family. I believe he was considered a resident of Illinois that whole time, only becoming a Virginia resident when he retired.
My sense is that was a fairly common fact pattern. Dunno what current practice is.
FWIW, I think he opted to not vote for state and local elections, because he didn't feel he was informed enough to choose wisely. He never missed a national election, though.
Like me, when I lived in Italy in the late 1970s? (I realize that's probably an answer to a rhetorical question posed by the grey box above)
Because, as Prof. Post notes, states run federal and local elections. There's no purely federal mechanism to enable federal voting.
Idaho, like most states, had election laws that allowed people residing outside the U.S. or military members in a different state, whose last registration had been in Idaho, to vote absentee using their last Idaho address (for active-duty military, they also waived state income tax).
Some states, Nevada especially, allow any U.S. citizen residing outside the U.S. and military members stationed in any U.S. state, to declare local residency for state tax and voting purposes (about half of U.S.-based military members voting absentee in 2024, did so with either a Nevada or Texas registration).
Works for me.
What about all the actual residents of Nevada who are subject to laws passed by legislators elected by non-residents? One should not be allowed to vote in a jurisdiction that does not have authority over you.
Yet, they are. I kept track of Idaho politics and local issues, and voted on them, even if Ms. Purple and I considered our return unlikely.
Though I retired from the USAF in 1996, it still works for me. If it bothers you, please vote for state legislators you believe will support that change in your state.
Well, strictly speaking the voters you describe actually are residents. One does lose his legal residency simply by physically departing a state. While an intention to not return is relevant and important it must be proved. The presumption is generally in favor of continued residency.
Ok. I'll ask this. If I own property in two States, why can't I vote in both State's, State and Local elections? I pay taxes in both States. I agree with one vote in the Federal Election, including Senators and Representatives.
Because property does not vote, individuals vote.
Where have I heard "No taxation without representation" 🙂
You will get strong disagreement from those who live in mail-only states. Each ballot is tracked by a unique bar code. The envelopes are non-transparent. You can't stuff a mail-only election system because any ballot that does not have a number associated with one that was sent out is not counted. Mail ballots are much easier for the elderly, single parents, and the disabled. No lines, no cold, no rain, no risk of voting in the wrong precinct, no partisans challenging you at the polling location.
The biggest downside about mail ballots is that states can put nit picky worthless requirements that cause them to not be counted.
" You can't stuff a mail-only election system because any ballot that does not have a number associated with one that was sent out is not counted."
No, that just rules out a particular approach to stuffing. You would need to arrange for ballots to be sent out, intercept them, fill them out, and send them back.
Almost trivial on the retail, "Let's not bother granny with this, we know how she'd vote anyway." level. To scale it, you'd need some inside help at the post office or the office sending the ballots out.
That proves too much. If you have "inside help" at the board of elections, you can stuff the ballot box without mail in ballots.
Sure, but if you're concerned somebody might be looking afterwards, you're better off going through as many of the formal steps as possible.
My point is that Molly was clearly wrong in her claim you couldn't do any ballot stuffing in a mail in system like she described. The retail sort is trivial to pull off, and probably happens at a non-trivial rate.
Scaling it gets into complications, but is not impossible, either.
Intercepting ballots before they reach the voter would inevitably be found out. Even if you are selectively grabbing the ballots of registered voters who have a track record of not participating. First, even people who choose not to vote, or a non-trivial portion of them, are going to realize they didn't get a ballot in the mail like they usually do, even though they choose not to return them. Second, some small percentage of the habitual non-voters are going to decide they actually do want to vote this time. Also, there is a website where I can check to see if my ballot was received. Once news reports surface about people saying they didn't get a ballot but the auditor's webpage shows they voted, other people are going to check. And then the whole house of cards collapses.
I think the people who oppose vote by mail are against it because it makes it too easy to vote. They think their preferred candidates will benefit if voting is harder, because supporters of the other side will be disproportionately discouraged from voting. Then they dress their concerns up in rhetoric about ballot security, etc. Of course, proponents of easier voting may also be thinking the same thing, in reverse.
"I think the people who oppose vote by mail are against it because it makes it too easy to vote."
Good point. As a matter of both democratic principles and simple ethics, representative democracies (like the republic our founders gave us) strive toward universal suffrage with policies reducing barriers to assured, secure, universal voting.
Whatever the circumstances, D’s start with an easily explainable bias—toward wanting more eligible voters to vote. R’s, on the other hand, must undertake the difficult task of attempting to explain their much less-easily-justified desire for fewer eligible voters to vote. So, it's far more common for D’s to work first toward reducing barriers for everyone eligible—an easy contrast to R's necessity to start sorting out those eligible voters they'd simply prefer to have a little harder time.
That’s why, though a conservative-by-temperament Independent, I support Democrats in a mutual effort to improve voting processes—especially eliminating pretextual friction, and standardizing methodologies and practices, including oversight, audit and security, to help enabling America’s progress towards a more perfect union. Some, on the other hand, parrot Republican’s irrational, pretextual, unending security fears as they continue to stand athwart history, yelling incoherently about insanely implausible election conspiracies.
btw, one reason traditional voter suppression techniques are increasingly ineffective is that voters are increasingly recognizing which party consistently favors voting practices that make it easier for all qualified voters to vote, and which party keeps devising barriers that make it harder—and especially, disproportionally harder for some carefully-targeted selected populations (as consistently demonstrated by a number of the regular commenters here.
Because, those selected populations become increasingly motivated to make it through the barriers and vote out the ones trying to block their vote.
(And yes, I acknowledge that we all need to continue shaming the outlier New York Democratic Party to get with the program and reform their voting system, which traditionally includes voting barriers that would do Jim Crow proud).
You would need to arrange for ballots to be sent out, intercept them, fill them out, and send them back.
Well, yes, but how are you going to accomplish this? How many interceptors do you need? And how many people to fill out and sign the ballots? I'd think it would be plenty suspicious to see lots of ballots signed in the same handwriting, and maybe all postmarked the same, despite having been sent out to lots of different addresses.
And what are you going to do when a lot of voters who requested mail-in ballots complain that they didn't get one?
It's like all your fantastical hypothetical vote fraud schemes - virtually impossible to carry out outside of a heist movie.
Yes, it gets more difficult to conceal the larger the scale you do it at. My point was that it's simply difficult, with issues you could work around, not impossible.
"And what are you going to do when a lot of voters who requested mail-in ballots complain that they didn't get one?"
And that's the easiest to work around problem of all: You stick to voter registrations where where the people haven't been voting. Which is why regularly purging the voter rolls is actually important.
Yes, it gets more difficult to conceal the larger the scale you do it at. My point was that it's simply difficult, with issues you could work around, not impossible.
That's a dumb point.
Unless, of course, you want to speculate till it's true enough we should make policies to solve this nonproven problem.
You know, so we can convince nutjobs like you the system's legit.
And that involves still more access to records, and still more conspirators, who are risking prison for what - a slightly improved chance of their candidate winning? In 2024 there was no state where adding 10,000 votes to the losing candidate would have changed the result. On a numerical basis NH was the closest state, with Harris winning by 23,000.
I know you're going to stick by your claim no matter what, but please get in touch with reality.
You are wonderously naive if you can't see the holes in that. They are big enough to drive a truck through.
You are wondrously underinformed if you believe in the common existence of undetectable holes big enough to be outcome-determinative.
You'll probably bring up Ballot Harvesting. Prof. Post mentioned the most consequential instance of such an outcome, which happened in Republican North Carolina’s 2018 8th Congressional District GoP House primary. That instance of fraud was still easily identified by statistical analysis of results (individual precinct voting patterns compared to prior cycles).
After a relatively brief investigation confirmed the particulars, the perpetrator, one McCrae Dowless, was charged and convicted (he died a couple years ago). Mark Harris, the winner (who said he was unaware of the fraud committed on his behalf), voluntarily gave up his seat and did not enter the new House election conducted in 1919. He did win the March 2024 GOP primary and general election for same seat and won the for the heavily Republican district that November.
But ballot harvesting or by a less pejorative name, ballot assistance, is simply the practice of allowing organized efforts by civic or political actors (sometimes party-affiliated, sometimes not) to pick up completed ballots and deliver them to the polls. Trump's 2020 brainless destruction of the Arizona GOP's decades-old, mature, well-organized, and non-partisan ballot assistance program in Arizona's heavily Republican senior communities undoubtedly cost him far more that the 10,000 votes he lost the state by.
Ballot assistance programs as an extension of other Get Out The Vote (GOTV) efforts, typically consist of repeated contact with the not-yet-voted to encourage them to register; help identify the voting process most suitable to their circumstances; and either 1) assist them with requesting, completing, and returning an early ballot, or 2) help them get to an early-voting or election-day voting site.
Where the practice was legal such as Arizona, Florida, and California, it was regulated and monitored, and actual instances of fraud more easily detected (and thus deterred). Where the practice was illegal (such as North Carolina), it was limited only to those proven willing to break the law, and thus with a strong propensity to commit and hide actual fraud—like McCrae Dowless.
Which—surprise!—is why actual fraud happened in Republican North Carolina, and not in Democratic California.
So yes, implement ballot-by-mail+voting centers everywhere, and permit (and monitor/regulate) the additional GOTV ballot-assistance efforts.
Any other election accessibility and security practices we can agree on? Because the more we can standardize vote casting and counting practices, the easier it is to secure and audit them.
Ballot "harvesting" is ridiculously easy to exploit.
I don't give two figs about who wins or loses elections. My background is in document security, and I only care about crafting a robust, accurate, fast, and inexpensive process for counting votes.
In terms of an optimal process, in-person balloting wins, hands-down, on every metric you can name.
In terms of an optimal process, in-person balloting wins, hands-down, on every metric you can name.
I doubt it wins on accuracy, especially without considerable early voting, but even with it.
By "accuracy" I mean reflecting the will of the voters. Because it is, to varying degrees, a hassle for some voters - made deliberately so by the GOP on occasion - it reduces turnout, and can be made to reduce it in certain ways by, for example, the location of polling places, the number of polling places and voting machines, slowing down procedures so as to generate long lines, even making it illegal to sell water or food to voters in line.
All these things can be done without the sort of complex plots and conspiracies the opponents of mail-voting dream up to justify their opposition.
My sense is that we vote more intelligently on the down ballot elections. Most people know who they plan to vote for for president or governor, but in the days of in person voting we would end up looking at the choices for Water Commissioner #3 and not have a clue. Now we set down at the kitchen table with a laptop and the ballot and go see what the candidates for Water Commissioner have to say for themselves.
Opponents of vote-by-mail correctly point out that you *could* ask for a sample ballot prior to going to the polls and do the same research. My counter is that ... no one actually did. At least we, and every friend I've discussed it with, didn't. Making it easier to vote intelligently is a feature, IMHO.
Convenience to voters.
You have no guarantee that your ballot is private, nor that it was delivered on time, nor that it was, in fact, even counted.
Speaking strictly from a process point of view, your confidence in general mail-in balloting is misplaced.
Not true. I can go to the county auditor's website, and it will tell me whether my ballot was received and when. I do prefer to use the convenient drop box in front of my local library instead of the mail.
My understanding is that once my signature and the unique bar code on the outer envelope of my ballot are verified, the ballot, contained in its privacy sleeve, is put in the stack for counting, and this is done in full view of observers. Under these circumstances, I believe my level of confidence is justified.
True for all ballots, not specifically for mail-in ones.
The problem is that almost all the flaws you've identified are hypothetical and have not been shown to result in any real-world problems.
As for expenses, it's just a policy choice that thinks the costs are outweighed by the benefits to the elderly, single parents, the disabled, and others.
As to timing, the fact that California uses mail-in ballots and takes a long time to certify elections does not necessarily mean that mail-in ballots are the cause of the delay. The vast majority of Utah voters have voted by mail for years, but there have not been any issues with Utah expeditiously certifying election results.
There's nothing "hypothetical" about the flaws of not being able to vote in private. Nor of not having a chain of custody. Nor of not having a guarantee that your vote was, in fact, counted.
Not a single one of these flaws exists for in-person voting. Simple. Direct. Straight from the hand of the voter to the vote tabulator, in perfect privacy.
"have not been shown to result in any real-world problems."
Um, if the ballot actually went straight from the hand of the voter to the vote tabulator — you're wrong, of course — then there would not be privacy.
This "expensive" business is nonsense.
First, poll workers get paid. Use mail-in ballots and early voting and you reduce the number needed, and some of the expense associated with in-person voting.
More important - much more - is this. While mail-in voting may be expensive for the government, it is vastly cheaper for the voter. How much does it cost to get to the polling place, to wait in line, maybe for hours, and then get back to your normal day. I bet the cost of all this, including time lost from work, etc. vastly outweighs the cost of mail-in voting.
It is by far the most expensive method of tabulating. I didn't say it was more or less expensive than the voter's time. That's really an apples-to-oranges comparison in any event.
Mail-in ballots have to be:
- Sent out by the election office
- Carried to the voter's place of residence
- Carried back to the election office
- Identify verified by an election worker
- Ballot inserted on behalf of the voter by an election worker
An in-person ballot is:
- Handed to the voter
- Who inserts it into the vote tabulator
Yes, certainly more expensive as a method.
No. Actually, it's not an apples-oranges comparison. Why shouldn't we care about the overall cost to the community, rather than just to the government? That's a pretty narrow view.
I can understand why you think as you do. In your career you did want to minimize costs to the organization you worked for, especially if it was private, but that's the wrong objective here.
You seem unaware that there's a whole government agency already devoted to delivering correspondence from one address to another. There's not a separate ballot delivering service that needs to be established for mail-in ballots.
As usual, Trump is right on the issues, and wrong on implementation.
No. He's not usually right on the issues. He is incontrovertibly wrong on tariffs, for example, and he's Putin's compliant ass-kisser on Ukraine. His tax bill is awful, and even if you agree with his opinions on immigration his enforcement actions are wrong-headed and often unlawful.
Plus, how does it help the country if he is right on some issues, but consistently fucks up the implementation?
Trump's genius is he knows who Americans are and he's not afraid to speak his mind.
So, yes, he is firmly on the "right" side of all those issues -- trade, spending, immigration, voting, crime -- meaning, he is on the side which will actually benefit most Americans.
It is his specific implementation ideas that are loopy. Fortunately for the Republicans, he has delegated the actual implementation to his cabinet, which frees him up to play the bull in the china shop on social media.
So, yes, he is firmly on the "right" side of all those issues -- trade, spending, immigration, voting, crime -- meaning, he is on the side which will actually benefit most Americans.
So you "don't give two figs about who wins or loses elections," but are sure Trump is right on all issues. It must be quite a trick to reconcile those views.
Plus, he is wrong, to varying degrees, on all the issues you list.
Tariffs are, in general, stupid and destructive, and even worse if you change them every day.
Spending? Do you think Trump's tax bill is going to reduce the deficit? No, it's not.
Immigration? Immigration benefits Americans. And even if you want to expel all the illegal ones, breaking promises and ignoring the Constitution benefits no one.
Voting? Yeah, we know your opinions by now. They are, I'm guessing, based on your experience in considerably different situations, with different objectives.
Crime? Nah. Performative BS.
In a country where the highest court has repeatedly held that the President (or at least this President) can ignore the laws passed by Congress whenever he likes, I'm not sure why you'd be so confident about anything.
Martinned2 29 minutes ago
In a country where the highest court has repeatedly held that the President (or at least this President) can ignore the laws passed by Congress
Martinned - getting delusional
Nazi Martin is long past delusional.
1. If an EO emerges, I predict it will focus on federal funding for states using wicked systems. Congress will be invited to incorporate this into a funding Bill.
2. I agree with David Post’s textual analysis of Article 1 Section 4. However SCOTUS has swallowed some elephant sized gnats on Section 4 in the past, pretending to believe that “the Legislature thereof” does not in fact refer to the actual state legislature as described neatly in each state’s constitution and confirming to our understanding of a body of knaves and scoundrels elected by the people. No, Siree, Bob. Apparently it refers to the people as a whole when establishing commissions by ballot initiative, or to those commissions themselves, or sometimes to the legislative and judicial process sweeping in the Governor and the state Supreme Court.
It would be very naive to imagine that “the Congress” could mean anything so simple as those two dens of thieves inhabiting the Capitol in DC. After all Section 4 says the Congress can adjust those laws made by the state “legislatures” - but in fact it can’t. It requires the President’s permission or at least acquiescence.
So dummies like me, and David Post should not assume that we have the wits to work out what simple words like Legislature and Congress mean. SCOTUS will tell us eventually, though not before President Boasberg has had his say.
Did ChatGPT have a meltdown to produce that crap?
Oh oh, Molly's jealous that someone else might be matching her level of crap.
Republicans had a thing where they wanted legislation to clearly explain where in the Constitution it gave Congress the power to pass it. Trump EOs regularly are a lesson in what is not allowed.
Constitutional or not is irreverent. Trump controls the Post Office and thus can order USPS to decline to deliver any ballots. Or Trump could pull all federal funding from every school, agency, and non-profit in a state to make them eliminate mail in ballots.
Good ideas! Send them in.
I'm going to have to wait to see what the EO actually SAYS, before opining on its constitutionality.
There is very little basis indeed for Trump to claim any inherent power over how states chose to conduct elections, and such statutory power as I'm aware of wouldn't plausibly extend to banning mail in ballots.
I suppose he could make up something about disparate impact and try to invoke the VRA, but that's about the only thing that comes to mind, and it would be an absurd stretch.
OTOH, Trump's EO's to date have always included standard boilerplate about "to the extent consistent with law", so technically never, ever, order anything illegal; He could order something totally outside his power with that boilerplate, and the effect would be a nullity.
However... A few days ago, he actually said that he would "lead a movement" to abolish mail in voting, NOT that he'd abolish it on his own authority. There's absolutely nothing the tiniest bit unconstitutional about him doing THAT.
""I am going to lead a movement to get rid of MAIL-IN BALLOTS, and also, while we're at it, Highly 'Inaccurate,' Very Expensive, and Seriously Controversial VOTING MACHINES, which cost Ten Times more than accurate and sophisticated Watermark Paper, which is faster, and leaves NO DOUBT, at the end of the evening, as to who WON, and who LOST, the Election,""
There's supposed to be an accompanying EO, but for all we know, all it does is direct that his subordinates conduct a study of some sort. I'm content to wait until I read it, before imagining hypothetical abuses and power grabs.
Exactly what I was thinking. In order for an EO to do anything, it'd have to have some statutory basis. That point seems to be missing from Post's entire analysis. He's assuming the conclusion.
So, nobody is actually paying tariffs now?
It is abundantly clear that taxation is an Article I purview, not Article II. Yet the tariffs are there and nobody is stopping them.
You are correct that an EO should have some statutory basis. But that's not where we are now.
Trump could use the statute 2 US 7, requiring election day votes.
Brett,
Have you read Trump's post?
He claims to be able to tell the states exactly how they must run elections.
Remember, the States are merely an “agent” for the Federal Government in counting and tabulating the votes. They must do what the Federal Government, as represented by the President of the United States, tells them, FOR THE GOOD OF OUR COUNTRY, to do.
What do you think about that?
Vote-by-mail has been around for a while. As long ago as the 2016 presidential election, about 25% of all American voters—more than 33 million—voted with ballots mailed to them (returned either by mail; or dropped off at elections offices, polling places, or dedicated drop-boxes). Wasn't just liberal states—it included 27 of 29 Utah counties (without controversy); 31 of 53 North Dakota counties; and 40% of Alaska voters. (Most numbers from a continuing Heritage Foundation project—search: heritage election fraud database.)
By the beginning of 2020 Vote at Home was rapidly growing in Red, Blue and Purple states. Studies definitively show that overall, vote-by-mail favors neither party—in fact, the pre-2020 demographic who voted by mail most were Republican-leaning seniors. (People who run campaigns had been adapting their voting assistance processes to Vote at Home, especially Republicans in states with large senior populations.)
Then Trump, as an early part of the Big Lie campaign, came out against mail voting and told his people not to do it. Trumpists started yelling Fraud! Cheating! Stolen Election! And what in 2016 was a non-partisan trend everywhere, in 2020 suddenly became anathema to Republicans (likely causing Trump to lose senior-heavy Arizona).
Here's a decent, recent, objective explainer from MIT:
https://electionlab.mit.edu/research/voting-mail-and-absentee-voting
(Good list of links at the end.)
Pretty sure what's eventually going to happen—post-Trump Interregnum—is standardized, near-universal Vote at Home (with the option of early & same-day in-person voting centers for those desiring it). Improvements to vote tabulation processes, practices and methods will increase ballot access, voter turnout, security, and election accountability across the board.
Just one more thing we can all eventually welcome.
Don't forget that one basis for the big lie was state's rules said they had to count same day/election day votes first THEN begin counting mail in ballots post-marked by a specific date.
Since Trump told his base not to use mail in votes; they voted same day (or in person early). Of course, the mail in votes favored the other candidate and hence... FRAUD THE LIKES OF WHICH HAVE NEVER BEEN SEEN.
It's almost like he doesn't understand words have consequences and GOP/MAGA voters listen to what he says. See for e.g, Jan 6th.
Yes, Ohio and Colorado require early-arriving ballots to be processed before, but final results not released until polls close on election day. That means only election-day votes remain to be counted and added to earlier votes, with results almost always released that evening.
Colorado at least, requires all voted ballots to be received by poll-closing, avoiding California's common weeks-long delays in finalizing close races. I wouldn't mind Colorado's practice to be implemented by all states.
Guidance to mail eight days before the election is widely publicized. Votes must be received by 7pm election day (to include being placed in drop-boxes or handed in at polling center).
This was an early decision as the process was being developed, and I think it's a good idea as it eliminates postmark questions, and enables early ballot processing and therefore earliest possible results availability (reducing red-shift/blue-shift confusion).
People tend to delay an action until a deadline forces it, so the effect is simply to move the action they would have taken anyway, a few days earlier.
Isn't one of California's problems that it allows absentee ballots to be "cured" for weeks after Election Day?
urple Martin 2 hours ago
Flag Comment
Mute User
"Vote-by-mail has been around for a while. As long ago as the 2016 presidential election, about 25% of all American voters—more than 33 million—voted with ballots mailed to them (returned either by mail; or dropped off at elections offices, polling places, or dedicated drop-boxes). "
2016 - approx 21% voted by mail
2020 - approx 43% voted by mail
2016 voter turnout was 62% vs 2020 voter turnout of 67%
since 1920 only 8 president elections was voter turnout above 60% vs 15 elections voter turnout below 60% with several in the low to mid 50%.
...and? Trying to figure out whether you're trying to make a point, or just spouting random numbers.
you were claiming that trump supporters were claiming fraud etc.
I am not claiming any thing of that sort, though noting that the significant shift in voting pattern indicates something likely amiss. Dismissal of something amiss because little or nothing was caught when mechanisms to detect irregularities didnt exist is lame.
Gee, what could explain different voting patterns in 2020 than in other years? Was there anything different going on in the U.S. in 2020?
Or - hear me out - A significant shift in voting patterns indicates a significant shift in circumstances. Interest in the 2016 and 2020 elections was higher due to the controversial nature of at least one of the candidates. Also, making it easier to vote makes people more likely to vote.
Putin told Trump that mail-in ballots were the cause of the 2020 election being stolen. What did anyone expect Trump to do, ignore Putin's remarks?
Lol it is even worse. Putin falsely told Trump that no other counties allow mail voting and mail voting is the worst method of voting, and Trump believed that and is doing what Putin told him to.
Being functionally illiterate President Trump can not check things out for himself and is at the mercy of what he is told by others.
Ending birthright citizenship jus soli is also patently unConstitutional but "the framers didn't mean it" is the new originalism so who knows anything anymore? /s
"Nothing is true; everything is permitted."
I think David Post and some of the commenters are missing the real game here. The objective is not to eliminate mail-in balloting.
The objective is to lay the ground for selectively questioning the legitimacy of the 2026 election results. On the average, pro-Trump states will be more likely to comply with the EO and not challenge it in court, while anti-Trump states will more likely not comply and will challenge it successfully in court. That will allow him and guys like Lee Moore go around saying the elections in states Republicans lost were rigged by Democrats and Judge Boasberg.
They want that message way more than they pretend to care about mail-in balloting.
"The State legislatures are expressly given the power, in the first instance, to "prescribe" the "time, place, [or] manner of holding [federal] elections."
I see no mention of state and federal judges being allowed to change any of those as was done in several jurisdictions in 2020.
Are you actually curious about any of this, or do you just want to complain? Really.
Yes, there are the words in the Constitution. From there, you get laws (written by the state legislatures). And then those laws, like all laws, get litigated and interpreted by courts. Your comment makes no more sense than saying, "The state made a law. How dare a court ever resolve any disputes?"
Election law is fascinating - mostly because it's incredibly complex and rules-bound, and insanely fast moving. I've had to deal with it a few times. Contrary to what you are asserting, there are tons of issues that might come up- everything from "If all the signatures to get on a ballot have to be delivered at 5pm, and the person is there at 4:45pm with the signatures, but there is a bomb threat and the building was evacuated from 4:30pm on, can the person qualify for the ballot?" to "If the law says if you are in line when the polls close you get to vote, how do you secure 'in-line'"?
And so on and so forth. There's a lot of rules, and a lot of laws, and generally the rules and the laws are interpreted to ensure fairness- the ability to vote, if possible; along with strict compliance for deadlines.
But while 2020 (Covid) certainly had issues, they were of the same kind that we had in elections in all years.
For real- I wish that every single person who complained about our elections was estopped from every complaining again until they served two election cycles (including a Presidential election) as a poll worker. Learning how people do the hard work - with integrity - every election cycle to make it all work for the rest of us ... while other people sit back and angrily type on their keyboards.
Oh well.
Loki - you are fully aware that state legislatures are charged with enacting the state election laws and that the state courts are charged with interpreting the state laws passed by the state legislature.
You are also aware that several state and federal courts allowed state election officials to change the state election rules in a manner contrary to the state laws.
Joe, such selective memory! All the instances constantly passed around the echospheres you frequent, are of courts noting state-authorized election officials responded to emergency conditions, per pre-approved processes incorporated in state laws passed by the state legislatures.
The most common such practice was authorizing new or additional secure ballot dropboxes in response to the Covid pandemic shutdowns (and your belief in Covid fables is irrelevant to the judicial system).
Since your reply will be to copy-n-paste your standard list of urban legends, I'll save time by my copy-n-pasting my standard reply—a Republican-authored report with cites/links to original sources for verifiable evidence of the actual facts for every one of your fables (it's a detailed analysis by a group of sane conservative Republicans, broken out by Trump claim, by state, of every single case):
(A link to the pdf of the report is on the report’s landing page.)
Purple martin's comment - "All the instances constantly passed around the echospheres you frequent, are of courts noting state-authorized election officials responded to emergency conditions, per pre-approved processes incorporated in state laws passed by the state legislatures.
The most common such practice was authorizing new or additional secure ballot dropboxes in response to the Covid pandemic shutdowns "
PM - your response is not factually correct.
Try again
Taking a stroll down memory lane ...
Does anyone else remember when Prof. Bernstein's hobby horse was the Obama administration's UNPRECEDENTED assault on the rules of law? How Obama was using executive orders in a lawless and unprecedented fashion that made the Constitution cry?
He had all these posts here. Wrote a book. Said to vote for Trump in 2016 so we didn't have any of these lawless EOs and government by executive fiat.
He really did stand up for principles, didn't he! Laying it into that terrible Obama and those EOs.
Huh. Guess he's been busy.
Yes, the Constitution has many friends when it restricts the other side, and few friends when it restricts one's own side.
There is even an old phrase about it. Something about an ox. Kind of gory.
Professor Post, are your concerns with this Because Trump or did you also express concerns when entities other than state legislatures or Congress made changes in various locales to the presidential election that Biden won?
Could such an abysmally stupid question actually be a question on a law school exam? If you can't even be bothered to make the text of the fictitious exectutive order to be challegned, then you don't actually deserve a serious answer. If this actually were a real question rather than a not too clever attack on an order that hasn't even issued, it wouldn't say much about the president. But it would and does say law school professors are lazy, not too intelligent, and suffering from TDS.
Mail-in ballots are not PRIVATE. That is enough of a reason to invalidate them. Or are you arguing that the Constitution does not require private balloting? Could a state require votes to be publicly announced? I haven't look into this for many years, but I think there is case law on this subject.
Of course the constitution does not require private balloting. Private balloting was instituted by ordinary legislation that could be repealed anytime a legislature wants to. The constitution says nothing at all about it. Where do you think it’s mentioned?
I mean, you could try to explain the Australian ballot and history ...
but why bother. I mean that seriously given the comments here. Why bother?
Yup. GPH, while claiming some relationship to Patrick Henry, is so untutored in history that he possesses neither any idea of what Australian Ballot means, nor its relevance to his own comment.
Titled Secrecy in Voting in American History: No Secrets There...this could help him, though I doubt he'll bother:
https://sociallogic.iath.virginia.edu/node/30
Well, no, the Constitution doesn't require ballot secrecy, any more than it requires a lot of things that are really important.
But that still leaves retaining ballot secrecy as a really strong reason for in person voting.
I put my mail ballot in envelope A, then put that inside envelope B that I sign. The process is that the election folks verify the signature on envelope B, mark that Absaroka voted, and send sealed (and now anonymous) envelope B off to be opened and the ballot tabulated.
On the one hand, sure, and an evil government could open both envelopes and note how I voted and send me off to the camps. OTOH, an evil government could hide a camera in the voting booth, dust ballots for fingerprints, have the ballot machine note the time of each vote and sync those with the surveillance camera watching who goes in which booth, et al, ad nauseam.
If you want to mandate that in person voting is an option for anyone wishing to do so, fine. You do you. But I want it accessible to people who prefer it, like me.
1) While someone can watch you fill in a mail in ballot if you decide to let them; they are private after they are cast.
2) No, the Constitution does not require private balloting. For the first century of our country's history, we did not have such a thing.
Why does the way the President chooses to decorate his stationary cause any sort of constitutional problem?
If he thinks this is an enforcible order, let HIM go to the courts and see if they will enforce it. In the meanwhile, why in the world does his doodling behavior affect anyone else? It wastes government stationary. But the taxpayers can absorb the use of government stationary for doodling purposes if it makes him feel better.
I just don’t understand why people go bonkers whenever this guy uses government stationary to create another piece of art. Why get so upset over something that needn’t concern you?
You seem to be confused. Depending on the details, he doesn't need to "go to the courts and see if they will enforce it." He has lots of people who report to him who can enforce it.
How? He calls in troops to seize voting machines? Do you really think they will obey?
We may have reached a point where enough of “his” people are in place in e.g. the FBI that if he orders them to assassinate an opponent they will. But I don’t think we’re there yet. I do know that the only way to find out is to test it. Let’s see if they are as eager to obey as you claim.
I think the military respomse to DC is illustrative. They are staying in tourist areas, being visible but mostly not actually doing very much. This makes me suspect that if ordered to be involved in elections they would put on some sort of show but they wouldn’t actually do things that really interfere like seize voting machines.
Trump is just enforcing the law. Mail-in ballots are not secure. Federal law 2 US 7 requires elections to be held on election day. Mail-in ballots do not comply.
Well, because the fundamental purpose of his EOs is not to effect change, but to see exactly how much existing law he can break by ordering minions to take unlawful actions.
What he's learned so far is...quite a lot.
OMG Trump's latest executive order is blatantly unconstitutional!!
How? Why? What does it say?
Oh, it doesn't actually exist, but I still wrote an angry, lengthy post about it.
Trump-haters hate everything he does, or even talks about.
Decent human beings hate everything he does, or even talks about. Don't worry; you're not in that group.
Wouldn't the only way to really go at the validity of mail-in ballots be to contend that all mail-in ballots (including absentee ballots) fall outside the times, places, and manner clause? Basically, an argument that the original understanding did not extend to mailing in ballots. My understanding is that absentee ballots really got going during the Civil War. However, there does seem to be pre-Civil War instances of absentee voting, https://time.com/5892357/voting-by-mail-history/, so this seems like a weak argument. Of course, no mail-in voting could also then make it much more difficult for people outside the US to vote (e.g., military).
The forgoing was edited.
We no longer have a wartime necessity.
I am a veteran poll worker, and like many of my fellow election nerds, I personally have little interest in who actually wins or loses a particular election. Most elections wind up with results very much like the prior election, because party affiliation is a reflection of the people who live in the surrounding neighborhood.
Voting patterns change only when voters move in or out.
What I DO care about is having a robust, accurate, inexpensive, and timely election process. In my couple of decades of working elections, I have personally found only one "innovation" that I thought actually helped: early, in-person voting.
Early voting completely eliminates any issues with waiting in long lines. In-person voting is simple and direct, and more to the point, is absolutely battle tested. We KNOW we can count accurately if voters show up in person.
All other innovations -- no-excuse absentee balloting, no-id voting, ballot harvesting (*shudder*), touchscreen voting, mail-in balloting, Internet balloting (Lord, help us!), rank order voting -- are all worthless, in my opinion, or at best should be relegated to edge cases.
How on earth did you slip rank order voting in there? The others — whether you're right or wrong about them — all pertain the mechanics of handling ballots. Rank order voting is about the substance of casting votes. It seems like the only thing these have in common is that MAGA hates them, which rather belies your already absurd claim that you "personally have little interest in who actually wins or loses a particular election."
"What I DO care about is having a robust, accurate, inexpensive, and timely election process."
"In-person voting is simple and direct, and more to the point, is absolutely battle tested."
Rank order voting is more complicated than just "pick one" and not quite as direct, nor battle tested.