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Ban on Gender Transition Procedures for Minors Doesn't Violate Parental Rights
From Poe v. Drummond, decided today by the Tenth Circuit (Judge Joel Carson, joined by Judges Harris Hartz and Gregory Phillips), upholding an Oklahoma statute that "prohibits healthcare providers from 'provid[ing] gender transition procedures' to anyone under eighteen."
Parent Plaintiffs assert a substantive Due Process claim arguing that SB 613 impinges on their fundamental right to make medical decisions for their minor children….
Parents have the right "to make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of their children," which includes "to some extent, a more specific right to make decisions about the child's medical care," But we and the Supreme Court have held that parents do not have an absolute "right to direct a child's medical care." …
We … have consistently held that individuals do not have an affirmative right to specific medical treatments the government reasonably prohibits. We have held that although patients have a fundamental right to refuse treatment, the "selection of a particular treatment … is within the area of governmental interest in protecting public health." Thus, the government has the "authority to limit the patient's choice of medication," whether the patient is an adult or a child.
The parent-child relationship does not change our reasoning, and to conclude otherwise would allow parents to "veto legislative and regulatory polices about drugs and surgeries permitted for children." LAlthough parents have authority over their children's medical care, no case law "support[s] the extension of this right to a right of parents to demand that the State make available a particular form of treatment." In fact, the state's interest in a child's health may "constrain[] a parent's liberty interest in the custody, care, and management of her children." So our Nation does not have a deeply rooted history of affirmative access to medical treatment the government reasonably prohibited, regardless of the parent-child relationship….
As for gender transition procedures specifically, healthcare providers onlyrecently began providing gender transition procedures for minors. The medical community traditionally limited gender transition treatments to adults.In 1979, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health ("WPATH") published the first standard of care ("Standard") for treating gender dysphoria and recommended that healthcare providers only administer hormone and surgical procedures on legal adults.In 1998, WPATH revised their Standard to include puberty blockers and hormones to those older than 16 if the patient met certain criteria but still recommended that "the administration of hormones to adolescents younger than age 18 should rarely be done."
Not until 2001 did WPATH revise their Standard to allow for puberty blockers as soon as pubertal changes began but still recommended that hormone therapy not occur until the age of 16. In 2012, WPATH revised their Standards to permit puberty blockers and hormonal therapy from the early stages of puberty. This recent development in the medical field regarding gender transition procedures for minors shows that our Nation does not have a deeply rooted tradition in providing gender transition procedures to minors….
Seems correct to me; here's what I wrote about the subject June 30, quoting a Sixth Circuit decision that reached the same result:
Some people have asked: Why aren't state statutes limiting youth gender medicine treatments violations of parental rights (given that they apply even when the parents ask for the treatment for their children)? The answer, I think, is that the Court hasn't generally recognized a constitutional right to get forbidden medical procedures for oneself, much less a right to get them for one's children. I think Sixth Circuit Judge Jeffrey Sutton correctly summarized the legal rules in L.W. v. Skrmetti (which the Supreme Court just declined to review):
There is a long tradition of permitting state governments to regulate medical treatments for adults and children. So long as a federal statute does not stand in the way and so long as an enumerated constitutional guarantee does not apply, the States may regulate or ban medical technologies they deem unsafe.
Washington v. Glucksberg puts a face on these points…. The Court reasoned that there was no "deeply rooted" tradition of permitting individuals or their doctors to override contrary state medical laws. The right to refuse medical treatment in some settings, it reasoned, cannot be "transmuted" into a right to obtain treatment, even if both involved "personal and profound" decisions….
Abigail Alliance hews to this path. The claimant was a public interest group that maintained that terminally ill patients had a constitutional right to use experimental drugs that the FDA had not yet deemed safe and effective. As these "terminally ill patients and their supporters" saw it, the Constitution gave them the right to use experimental drugs in the face of a grim health prognosis. How, they claimed, could the FDA override the liberty of a patient and doctor to make the cost-benefit analysis of using a drug for themselves given the stark odds of survival the patient already faced? In a thoughtful en banc decision, the D.C. Circuit rejected the claim. The decision invoked our country's long history of regulating drugs and medical treatments, concluding that substantive due process has no role to play….
As in these cases, so in this one, indeed more so in this one. "The state's authority over children's activities is broader than over like actions of adults." A parent's right to make decisions for a child does not sweep more broadly than an adult's right to make decisions for herself….
Parental rights do not alter this conclusion because parents do not have a constitutional right to obtain reasonably banned treatments for their children. Plaintiffs counter that, as parents, they have a substantive due process right "to make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of their children." At one level of generality, they are right. Parents usually do know what's best for their children and in most matters (where to live, how to live, what to eat, how to learn, when to be exposed to mature subject matter) their decisions govern until the child reaches 18. But becoming a parent does not create a right to reject democratically enacted laws. The key problem is that the claimants overstate the parental right by climbing up the ladder of generality to a perch—in which parents control all drug and other medical treatments for their children—that the case law and our traditions simply do not support. Level of generality is everything in constitutional law, which is why the Court requires "a 'careful description' of the asserted fundamental liberty interest."
So described, no such tradition exists. The government has the power to reasonably limit the use of drugs, as just shown. If that's true for adults, it's assuredly true for their children, as also just shown. This country does not have a custom of permitting parents to obtain banned medical treatments for their children and to override contrary legislative policy judgments in the process. Any other approach would not work. If parents could veto legislative and regulatory policies about drugs and surgeries permitted for children, every such regulation—there must be thousands—would come with a springing easement: It would be good law until one parent in the country opposed it. At that point, either the parent would take charge of the regulation or the courts would. And all of this in an arena—the care of our children—where sound medical policies are indispensable and most in need of responsiveness to the democratic process.
I have argued that there should be a constitutional right to choose certain medical treatments for oneself in narrow circumstances (basically when the person is terminally ill, and seeks a possibly life-saving though unproven treatment). But even if I'm right, that would be quite a narrow right; and in any event, the Abigail Alliance en banc opinion, described in the excerpt above, rejected even that narrow argument.
Zach West, Audrey A. Weaver, and Will Flanagan of the Oklahoma Attorney General's office represent the state in the Tenth Circuit case.
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Land of the free, and all that.
Now do compassionate sexual identity affirming therapy.
You do understand that the case is about one person doing something to another person, specifically a child that lacks maturity?
Adults are free to agree to this form of treatment, as insane as it is. Just like adults are free to have multiple face-lifts, pierce body parts, tattoo their entire body, etc. For that matter, an adult is free to take a whip and beat himself/herself bloody. Do that to a child, and you will be arrested.
Ummmm I'm Telling!!!!!! you're being logical! prepare to be "Canceled"
Frank
Following the European standard that there is no science to support 'gender affirming' medical intervention for minors. "Disphoria" is a mental health condition best addressed by counseling and therapy.
Counseling and Therapy? how much can you bill for that? Much more profitable to whack off/out Breasts, Ovaries, Testicles, Peni, Labii, prescribe Hormones that can cause Cancer and Heart Disease, inflict wounds and call them a "Neo-Vagina"
THEN they can get the counseling and therapy, before they kill themselves
The "Patients" I mean, no way the Psychopaths who perform these "Treatments" feel any guilt
Of course they could throw in a free Lobotomy with the "Therapy" but that would be violating the "Standard of Care"!!
Frank
I've always found it amusing that many of the same people who are convinced that "Big Pharma" is sitting on a cure for Alzheimer's or Parkinson's are more than willing to let "Big Pharma" have access to patients that will require 'treatment' from the age of 16 to 60.
Weird
Amazing how many Doctors prescribe medications they would never take themselves or recommend for their family
42. That's the median age of their suicides.
Of course, as so often with LGBTQ rights in the US, that whole framing is ass-backwards. It doesn't (necessarily) violate parental rights, it violates the kids' rights, including their right not to be discriminated against by the state on the basis of their gender orientation.
No such right.
As I have pointed out from time to time, Dred Scott, recognized a rigbt not to be discriminated against on the basis of what kind of property one has. Everybody claims that opposition to what they want to do is discrimination. And judges are not particularly good, no better than anybody else, at adjudicating these claims absent a source of law that specifically covers them.
If you can't see the anti-trans animus in *Oklahoma*, I really can't help you.
https://www.nyclu.org/commentary/why-my-niece-moving-ny-escape-oklahomas-anti-trans-law
Thats the great thing about Leftism. The only reason to resist their ideology is out of animus! Its so neat of a position to take.
There are no reasonable criticisms or concerns, there are no reasonable alternatives. The only reason is animus!!
Um... yep. You got some other reason in mind?
Nope. The only reason to disregard the wishes of Jehovah’s Witness parents denying transfusions or medical treatment to their children is discrimination against that particular sect. What would you say if those same parents said they want to treat their children, but she doesn’t want it?
I am making that particular analogy because I assume, hope, the parents don’t actually want to see their children make life-altering and dangerous decisions when Europe has decided that is no research that shows it is beneficial.
How about that British couple who had a brain dead daughter the state forced them to pull the plug on? Not sure what discrimination that might be. Perhaps anti-vegetables?
What an odd reply.
That there are reasons for some things doesn't imply there are reasons for this thing.
John Calhoun could definitely see the anti-slavery animus in abolitionism. And a lot of Southerners could see the anti-Southern animus in Martin Luther King. It was all about hate.
Yes, but anti-slavery animus wasn't forbidden by the constitution. Animus against LGBT-related classifications is, by any reasonable interpretation of the equal protection clause. (It's an immutable characteristic of a minority group that suffered historic disadvantage, etc.)
Gender dysphoria is not an immutable characteristic. Most children desist and there are significant number of adult detransitioners. That is nothing like homosexuality. It only appears to be immutable among autogynephilic males.
Sexual orientation is mutable too. There are plenty of people whose sexual preferences have changed over time.
Who, besides yourself?
https://www.aarp.org/family-relationships/gay-lesbian-sexual-preference-schwartz/
How did you not know this? I guess with your specialty, you don't need to know much at all.
You don't seem to know what an immutable characteristic is, Lex. Here's a clue: age is considered to be an immutable characteristic.
Martinned 11 hours ago
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Mute User
"If you can't see the anti-trans animus in *Oklahoma*, I really can't help you."
In summary
NY has a pro-mutilation animus while Okla has anti-mutilation animus.
The UK, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, etc. also restrict access of minors with gender dysphoria to medical treatments.
Children are not entitled to medical treatments in order to satisfy a delusion or paraphilia. Anorexic girls don't have a right to liposuction. Minors don't have a right to pierce their genitals. There's no good reason for a teen male with autogynephilia to have access to female sex hormones or castration. But for the modern pagan cult of trans with its high priests in the universities, this would be roundly condemned for the child abuse that it is.
They *regulate* medical care, they don't categorically ban it. If you don't understand the difference between regulating the medical profession and banning a whole category of care because you think trans people are icky, I really can't help you.
"If you don't understand the difference between regulating the medical profession and banning a whole category of care..."
The difference is where you draw the line.
If the ban was based on animus, why allow such procedures for adults? And why are bans on FGM not based on animus, but bans on much more intrusive procedures are?
"If you don't understand the difference between regulating the medical profession and banning a whole category of care..."
I take it Martinned posted this silly idea. The FDA in fact bans whole categories of care. There are drugs that are illegal in the US which some people go abroad to get. (I recall that in the 70s and 80s there was a supposed miracle drug, Laetrile, that could cure cancer. Banned in the US, so people went to Mexico to get it.)
Banning is part of regulating.
Lawn darts were regulated by banning the sale, same with standard incandescent bulbs. This is no different, you just think it is because of the subject matter.
You hear this argument a lot. “None of those countries have banned it.” But that’s because those countries have centralized health care systems. As a result, they didn’t *need* to ban pediatric sex change treatments to get doctors to stop performing them. The government health services could just issue directives that the treatments are experimental and can only be performed in experimental settings.
Here, however, our system is decentralized. There are advantages to that. But one big disadvantage is that once there’s an infrastructure built up around a certain treatment, like pediatric sex changes, if you later decide the risks outweigh the benefits it’s virtually impossible to get doctors to pull back on prescribing it short of banning it outright.
Are blanket bans the best possible answer? Maybe not. Are they a better answer than clinician-activists continuing to prescribe sterilizing treatments on demand to satisfy the “embodiment” desires of mentally disturbed children? Absolutely.
I didn't look up all of the countries mentioned, but here's the situation in the UK:
https://www.gendergp.com/age-of-consent-for-gender-transition-uk/
It looks like the NHS won't do anything for minors, but private providers generally can for kids aged 16+, and in some cases younger.
tl;dr: Definitely not a blanket ban in the UK.
The link you provided says that the UK has now banned puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria in children under 18.
And despite the article’s reference to “exploring private options,” a UK government website confirms that the ban applies to private physicians as well as through the NHS.
It’s not a “blanket ban” in that it leaves open the possibility of future clinical trials to evaluate puberty blockers as a treatment for gender dysphoria. But no such trials have yet been conducted.
Tl;dr: Pretty much a blanket ban in the UK.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ban-on-puberty-blockers-to-be-made-indefinite-on-experts-advice
Yes, puberty blockers and genital surgery are essentially banned. Hormone replacement therapy and top surgery are not.
More importantly: there's a difference between what the government will do and what private clinics will do, which contradicts your previous point that "if the government health provider doesn't offer it, it's effectively banned anyway". It's quite common in single payer systems to allow private treatment outside of that system.
The state doesn't allow hetero boys to take estrogen or cut off their dicks, either. If denying everybody something only some people want was discrimination against the minority who want it, almost all laws would be 'discriminatory'.
Anyway, if there were any sort of right to obtain the health care of your choice, health care regulation would look RADICALLY different in this country. The war on drugs would have been unconstitutional twice over, instead of just once. Guys who identify as buff would have a right to myostatin blockers. And, yeah, gay people who'd rather be straight would have no trouble getting 'conversion' therapy to affirm their straightness.
That last is big: The hypocrisy of demanding a right to transgender treatments, but banning conversion therapy, is absolutely GLARING.
The hypocrisy of demanding a right to transgender treatments, but banning conversion therapy, is absolutely GLARING.
That is so stupid it is offensive in several different ways.
right to obtain the health care of your choice
No one is claiming any such right. (Or at least I'm not.) I'm claiming a right not to have categories of healthcare banned on ideological (as opposed to medical) grounds.
Like compassionate conversion therapy is...
"That is so stupid it is offensive in several different ways."
Yeah, I get that you want to defend that particular hypocrisy. And it IS a glaring bit of hypocrisy if your rallying cry is individual medical rights.
"I'm claiming a right not to have categories of healthcare banned on ideological (as opposed to medical) grounds."
OK, let's get real. Banning conversion therapy WAS banning on ideological grounds. Approving 'gender affirming care' for minors WAS approving on ideological grounds.
Nobody would move from "No, you're actually a guy, here's your genetic testing, MRI, take a peek between your legs. Let's help you accept that reality." to "Here, we'll cut your dick off." for non-ideological reasons. Psychiatry is the most politicized 'medical' discipline out there, and the DSM is half political manifesto.
For that matter, the medical grounds for treating things like myostatin blockers and aromase inhibitors as controlled substances are total bullshit. It's done to protect professional sports from 'doping', not because these drugs are generally dangerous.
You want to get the government out of deciding what medical care adults can get, generally? I'm on board, but it's going to involve getting the government out of the way of decisions you disapprove of, too.
But for minors? Simply is not happening.
Banning conversion therapy WAS banning on ideological grounds.
No, it was banning something that was objectively harmful.
... according to Leftist ideologues and activists.
It's so bizarre the belief system you people have.
Sexual orientation is absolutely malleable and actually does change.
Human sex is immutable and cannot change.
Yet you people will deny care to the young adult who doesn't want to be gay, while putting the 5 year old on puberty blockers and "transitioning" them into something they can only ape but never really be.
It's Satanic inversion.
Martinned 3 hours ago
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Mute User
"Banning conversion therapy WAS banning on ideological grounds.
"No, it was banning something that was objectively harmful."
Martin - unable to grasp how objectively harmful "transgender " / " gender affirming care " is?
conversion therapy - temporary harm
Gender affirming care - chemical mutilation - permanent harm.
"objectively harmful."
As is "gender affirming care"
"No, it was banning something that was objectively harmful."
Neutering a child, mutilating a child, killing the possibility of sexual pleasure for the remainder of their life and sentencing them to having to take drugs and, in the case of men, having to use instruments to keep a wound open --- that is NOT harmful?
So was banning puberty blockers for kids.
OK, let's get real. Banning conversion therapy WAS banning on ideological grounds.
Has there ever been a time where 'lets get real' wasn't followed by an ideologically-driven ipse dixit?
Conversion therapy being bad doesn't have the robust behavioral studies behind it to make it a baseline scientific truth. Though that doesn't matter anymore to the right anyhow.
But it sure does have a ton of examples of people attesting how it harmed them.
To be sure, there are also people saying it saved them by making them not gay. But even ignoring how many of those people *ahem* backslide, that has at it's base a sense that gayness is bad. It is a legit value judgement for a representative government to say that's not how it want's to roll. One clue that's true is the anti-gay rump tend to advocate for exactly that value judgement in reverse.
Even beyond the values thing, a bunch of lived experiences coming together is actually a pretty common way to make policy.
In the end, this isn't hypocritical at all; it's a government making decisions based on information and values. That Brett wants to make a different position tells us his values.
That he insists his decision is the only legitimate one tells us it's Brett.
"behavioral studies"
Oh, smoke and mirrors then.
Bans on "conversion therapy" for gays--which were used as the template for trans activists--are likewise bans on a whole category of care. Of course, there is no evidence that "conversion therapy" for gender dysphoria is harmful. Most children with gender dysphoria in fact desist and there would not be so many detransitioners if it were like homosexuality.
And it's risible to suggest that "gender affirming care" isn't ideological. Nothing other than ideology can explain why children have been subjected to such extreme medical interventions with no significant data supporting their use for something as ill-defined as gender dysphoria (particularly revealing are the WPATH files).
In the absence of one, such a law merely needs to satisfy the rational basis test. It's not enough that you think animus motivated the law; it would have to be that only animus could explain the law. But the entire animus framework is a poor fit here. The motivation is not "We hate trans people and want them to suffer." The motivation is "We want to protect vulnerable kids from these treatments."
You mean "we want to protect kids from their parents and doctors."
I'm all for protecting kids from their parents. We should also protect kids from medical charlatans (conversion therapy).
But these are real doctors practicing the best-available therapies. This isn't some fringe medical conspiracy.
So yes, that leaves "we hate trans people and want them to suffer" (or the equivalent "we don't believe in trans people and therefore any hypothetical suffering is moot") as Occam's Razor's only explanation.
The rational basis test permits the state to have reasons that do not align with Occam's Razor.
Animus is not a rational basis.
Of course not. But again, just because animus is the most likely explanation, doesn't mean it's the only one.
Martinned 4 hours ago
"No one is claiming any such right. (Or at least I'm not.) I'm claiming a right not to have categories of healthcare banned on ideological (as opposed to medical) grounds."
Martin - do you even have a grasp of the issue ?
WPATH's version of Gender affirming is being banned based on medical grounds and the physical harm done.
Who gets to decide which bans are based on ideological versus medical grounds? As David Nieporent noted, if rational basis review applies, it's the elected branches. The corollary is if heightened scrutiny applies, it's the courts.
In Skrmetti, SOCTUS held (wrongly in my view) banning gender transition treatments in minors is subject only to rational-basis review (implying the same would hold true for similar bans on adults). Presumably, the same would apply to the non-speech aspects of conversion therapy (*). But, SCOTUS hears a case next term challenging the speech aspects of conversion therapy. I expect them to strike down that law based on their desired policy outcome rather than sound legal reasoning.
(*) Unlike gender-transition treatments, non-speech conversion therapy does not implicate sex discrimination and is thus easily subject to only rational-basis review.
WPATH's version of "Gender affirming care" should be banned because of the permanent medical /physical/mental health harm caused. Period.
Minors don’t have a right to get a tattoo yet you believe they have a “right” to permanently mutilate their bodies under the influence of the vile trans industry?
Martinned must be on the payroll of "Big Pharma" and seeks customers with a lifetime need of their products.
Why exercise and eat sensibly when you can get a painful expensive injection every week with lots of dangerous side effects??
What's gender orientation? I don't think I've ever heard of it before, but goddamn it, there's a right not to be discriminated against based on it!
It affirms the kids right not to have their bodies unnecessarily surgically mutilated or their normal biological development permanently skewed by the medically unnecessary use of puberty blockers and/or cross gender hormones.
Your position presupposes that the only objections to performing sex change procedures on kids are ideological ones.
That’s not the case. There are many medical objections.
This isn’t “doctors say x, but Republican politicians are ignoring them.” It’s doctors disagreeing with each other. A controversy within the medical community.
That being the case, states can decide one side of the controversy is right and the other side is wrong without violating anyone’s rights.
This isn’t “doctors say x, but Republican politicians are ignoring them.”
Au contraire.
Most of Europe is saying “whoa Nellie. There isn’t conclusive research this does a damn bit of good” is not the same as Republicans saying anything.
When researchers can prove these are not more harmful than the good they do, mutilation and permanent sterility will just need to wait.
I guess all of those European medical systems and governments are staffed by Republicans.
a) Is this the way to get MAGA into socialized medicine? Ok, could be worth it.
b) Even assuming there is a controversy within medical science, arguendo, will Republicans repeal these laws if a concensus forms? "Doubtful" says the 8-ball.
It's mainly among parochial Americans who frame the issue as left v. right. That you deny that there's controversy likewise makes me doubtful that you're swayed by evidence rather than ideology.
Dr. Hillary Cass is a doctor. She’s one of the most eminent pediatricians in the world.
The authors of the HHS report on pediatric transitioning are also doctors.
You may disagree with them and think that policymakers should not listen to them and should listen to other doctors instead. You’re entitled to that opinion. But they’re doctors.
It’s doctors disagreeing with other doctors.
The practice of medicine is regulated by the state.
Minors aren't even allowed to get tattoos.
The KKK (ht Democrat Party) didn’t used to castrate Black men, they were just performing “Sexual Identity Affirming Therapy”
Frank
So adults as well do not have an absolute right over their healthcare as long as it is an 'area of governmental interest in protecting public health'? Remember this - my mask-hating patriots - when the next pandemic hits.
When the next pandemic hits, do you think Fauci would've caused that one too?
I'm not interested in rehashing that nonsense. I just find it amusing that -as always - when the rubes chuckle over what they think is another culture win against gay people, it usually ends up targeting them as well.
You think transgenders are gay people?
Makes sense. You also think blacks are too stupid to get an ID.
1: most are
2: many are
If a trans-female with a penis has sex with another male with a penis, they believe that isn't gay
Third Base!!
That's already the state of the law. Were mask requirements generally found unconstitutional? I don't remember that, although specific executive orders may have been challenged. Were requirements that a vaccine be given to everyone found unconstitutional? No, it was just that OSHA couldn't decree that without specific legislation.
'generally' doing a lot of work here.
How so?
"generally" is intentional. It doesn't count if some specific order was struck down because a governor was limited to 30 day emergency orders and he extended a mandate beyond that, or because of the Major Questions doctrine, or something.
The pandemic lawsuits were mostly about people *refusing* to be vaccinated, etc. The plaintiffs here are arguing for an affirmative right to *get* treatments.
In our system, that makes a difference. Negative liberty - the right to be let alone - is usually far broader than the right to affirmatively ask for stuff.
The practice of medicine is regulated by each State.
You aren't going to like every decision the State Medical Board makes.
"Remember this - my mask-hating patriots - when the next pandemic hits."
Huh? This was already the case during the last pandemic. If court and governments had taken a more laissez-faire approach to regulating pandemics and other health issues in the past, the outcome here might be different. But they didn't.
Note that no one has argued a parental right to FGM.
Then I don't want to hear any more bitching when the gubmint asks y'all to put on a mask
"Then I don't want to hear any more bitching when the gubmint asks y'all to put on a mask..."
Why? The parameters of a right to refuse medical treatment are different that the parameters to ban it are.
Surely, we agree that it would be unconstitutional for the government to require transgender people to wear masks.
Just to be clear, despite the weirdos who kept trying to claim that mask requirements violated HIPAA (though they usually spelled it HIPPA) in some unspecified way, mask-wearing requirements are not "medical treatment."
You reply should have been to hobie
Your reply should've been to your butt boy.
Three super lib doctors I've worked with/known over the last 10 years and they've all got kids who are trans. One has a wife who is certifiably insane and works in Dem politics in my state and she was absolutely GLOWING when her daughter decide she was a boy. These people have some crazy version of Munchhausen Syndrome. Educated, credentialed, influential, and crazy as fuck.
Those poor kids.
And the sad thing is that these parents are in a position to influence things and can never, ever, admit that they were wrong.
Imagine having to come to terms with the fact that you mutilated your child based on a ridiculous fad? You probably can't even have a rational conversation with such people.
I've often wondered what their shit-show lives will look like in 10 years time and beyond.
I predict a lot of blame, hate, and anger in their family dynamics.
Eventually those kids will come to the conclusion that their parents failed as parents. That kind of wreckage is inevitable. And by people who should have known better.
Just look at how "I Am Jazz" is getting along at the present.
"She has been open about her transgender identity since a young age and began her social transition at age 5."
Yeesh. As they say, a 5 year old trans person is like a vegan cat. Everybody knows who's making the decisions.
and then they get angry when I joke that I tried turning my Daughters Lesbo (much rather have a cute Daughter-in-Law than some oafish Dude)
Did my best, must have replayed that "Britney/Christina kiss" thousands of times, got them into the Sports,
With no success, they love the Sausage, (I think it's those "American Girl" Dolls Mrs. Drackman got them hooked on)
Frank
Trans friend (who coincidentally expresses multiple personalities, and like to do a lot of drugs) was very pleased about his trans child.
He sought out docs that would affirm the decision rather than question it.
Redd Foxx had a bit where a Doctor prescribed the wrong Hormone (How do you make a Hormone? Don't pay her!)
to an Elderly Female (for her Hot Flashes)
She told him, "Doctor, since you prescribed those Hormones I've grown a Beard"
Doctor asks "Well, how long is it?"
"It goes all the way to my Dick!" (Rim Shot)
Frank
Parental rights have long been recognized to be limited when there is some level of harm to children deemed necessary for the state to step in. See, e.g., Prince v. Massachusetts (1944):
It is cardinal with us that the custody, care and nurture of the child reside first in the parents, whose primary function and freedom include preparation for obligations the state can neither supply nor hinder. And it is in recognition of this that these decisions have respected the private realm of family life which the state cannot enter.
But the family itself is not beyond regulation in the public interest, as against a claim of religious liberty. And neither rights of religion nor rights of parenthood are beyond limitation. Acting to guard the general interest in youth's wellbeing, the state, as parens patriae, may restrict the parent's control by requiring school attendance, regulating or prohibiting the child's labor and in many other ways.
[footnotes and citations removed]
I share the concern of Martinned that the laws have been framed here with illegitimate animus. The current Supreme Court wrongly ignored this in a recent opinion. It was wrong. FWIW.
Stuck with wrong-minded doctrine on the equal protection front, parents are left with trying to (1) find a way around the limited majority opinion in Skrmetti (2) try other approaches.
The second approach is one of the things used here. The opinion here says parents don't have an "absolute" right to direct their children's medical care.
Okay. I doubt the parents asserted such a right. If they did, it would be ridiculously overbroad. The right of the state to intervene, for instance, to require blood transfusions to the minor children of Jehovah's Witnesses has been upheld.
The sensible claim would be that parents generally have a right to direct medical care, and the government can overrule it if there is a compelling reason to do so. For instance, some medical procedure that the parents want would harm the children.
In this context, that would result in a debate over experts and trans medical care. A neutral regulation would be valid. I don't think the law involved was neutrally passed, but again, given the SCOTUS opinion, a court finding otherwise is not surprising.
That would be the argument if we were talking about a specific situation in which a specific set of parents wanted to direct a specific treatment for a specific child. But this is simply the government outlawing a particular treatment across the board. As the law currently stands, when that happens parents don't have any right to undergo that particular treatment for themselves, let alone to direct it for their children. The relevant right of parents is to choose legal medical care for their children, not any medical care they want.
For those "parental rights" posters: Suppose an 8 year old gets a cut or scrape. Should a parent have a substantive due process right to give the child an oxycodone pill for pain?
If not, why not?
It's not indicated.
Usually you guys are the ones arguing that the gov't shouldn't be meddling in this stuff. Who's pro-meddling now!
I find it crazy that the same people arguing that this violates their medical rights to make decisions also are pushing to pass conversion therapy bans.
Not crazy at all.
It is ideological
If conversion therapy worked at all, the left would be all over it. Do you know any gay people? Almost nobody actually wants to be gay. What do you think Pride is about? It's obviously not about convincing straight people. They're convincing themselves that hey, maybe this isn't so bad.
It's not ideological. It just doesn't work.
I suspect that many of the people who contend that parents should have the right to seek chemical and surgical sex-alteration measures for their minor children wouldn't be at all unhappy with a ban on elective infant circumcision.
As I recall, there was an attempt to get a circumcision ban on the ballot in San Francisco ten or fifteen years ago; the required number of petition signatures were obtained, but the measure was shot down by the courts before reaching the ballot. SF being SF, I suspect that most of those who signed the petition then would be ardent supporters of transitioning minors today.
Good decision !
There's no way to convert a man into a woman and likewise the other way around - it's never been done because it's impossible.