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Appeals Court Rules Trump's Birthright Citizenship Order is Unconstitutional and Upholds Nationwide Injunction Against it
The court ruled that a nationwide injunction is the only way to provide complete relief to the state government plaintiffs in the case.

Yesterday, in Washington v. Trump, the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that Donald Trump's executive order denying birthright citizenship to children of undocumented immigrants and non-citizens present on temporary visas is unconstitutional. The court also upheld the district court's nationwide injunction against the order. Prominent conservative Judge Patrick Bumatay dissented on the ground that the plaintiff state governments lack standing.
This is the first appellate ruling on the legality of Trump's birthright citizenship order, though four federal district courts have previously ruled the same way. The majority opinion by Judge Ronald Gould does an excellent job of explaining why the order violates the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which grants citizenship to anyone "born … in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof." It effectively covers text, original meaning, Supreme Court precedent, and more. It's a compelling demolition of the administration's argument that people who illegally entered the US are not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States because they lack the proper "allegiance" and "domicile."
I would add that, if illegal entry by parents excludes a child born in the US from birthright citizenship, that would also have excluded large numbers of freed slaves. As Gabriel Chin and Paul Finkelman have shown in an important article, the freed slaves whose children were covered by the Citizenship Clause included a large population that had entered the US illegally, by virtue of being brought in after the federal government banned the slave trade in 1808. This shows that illegal entry was not considered a barrier to being under US jurisdiction. Granting black former slaves citizenship was the main objective of the Citizenship Clause.
For more on the shortcomings of the "domicile" theory, see this guest post by Evan Bernick.
As a result of the Supreme Court's ruling in Trump v. CASA barring nationwide injunctions, courts can no longer issue such injunctions merely because the government has engaged in large-scale nationwide illegality. But the Supreme Court nonetheless noted that nationwide remedies are permissible in cases where they are the only way to provide "complete relief" to the parties to the litigation. Here, the Ninth Circuit ruled that a nationwide injunction is the only way to provide complete relief to the plaintiff state governments, who otherwise stand to lose various federal grants and benefits allocated based on the number of citizens:
States' residents may give birth in a non-party state, and individuals subject to the Executive Order from non-party states will inevitably move to the States….. To account for this, the States would need to overhaul their eligibility-verification systems for Medicaid, CHIP, and Title IV-E. For that reason, the States would suffer the same irreparable harms under a geographically-limited injunction as they would without an injunction.
These kinds of harms are probably only a small proportion of the losses the states would suffer from implementation of Trump's executive order. But remedying them is still essential for purposes of providing complete relief.
In his dissenting opinion, Judge Bumatay does not consider either the constitutionality of Trump's order, or the proper scope of the injunction. He instead argues the case should be dismissed because the state plaintiffs lack standing. He contends the harms from loss of federal funds and benefits are too unclear, speculative, and indirect.
I won't try to go over the standing issue in detail. But, overall, I think the majority is more persuasive on this issue. It is indeed difficult to predict exactly how much money the states will lose if Trump's order is implemented. Among other things, as Bumatay notes, it will depend in part on exactly how implementation works. But it is virtually certain they will lose at least some funds, and even a small amount of direct economic damage is enough to justify standing.
That said, the Supreme Court's jurisprudence on state government standing is far from a model of clarity. Thus, I cannot be certain what will happen if this issue were to get to the Supreme Court.
I myself have long advocated for broad standing for both state and private litigants, including state governments advancing claims I oppose on the merits. It is vital that illegal federal policies not be immunized from challenge by arbitrary judicially created procedural rules. State standing is especially important in the aftermath of Trump v. CASA's ill-advised evisceration of universal injunctions. States are often entitled to broader remedies than private litigants, given the greater scope of the harms they might suffer.
State standing may not be the only way to secure a universal remedy against Trump's birthright citizenship order. In one of the other cases challenging it, a federal district court has granted a nationwide class action certification. Both this remedy and that upheld by the Ninth Circuit may well end up being reviewed by the Supreme Court when - as seems likely - it takes up the merits of the birthright citizenship litigation.
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The Ninth Circuit found that the individual plaintiffs did not have standing, but acknowledged that they are part of the class certified in the Barbara v. Trump matter in New Hampshire.
The people who support birthright citizenship claim they're taking that position out of "fealty" for the Constitution, but the reality is that they just want more brown citizens to dilute the voting power of the white conservatives they so hate.
That's right, Somin will use any excuse to import millions of brown people.
And Schlafly will do anything, including putting on a white hood and lynching people, to get rid of brown people.
I agree that Trump’s order is unconstitutional (twice over), and that all former slaves born in the country were made citizens by the Amendment. But the idea that their parents being brought in illegally has any bearing on our current debate is absurd. Those slaves didn’t willingly enter the country, legally or otherwise. So, while I believe the children of illegal aliens born here are citizens, that situation has no similarity to the children of slaves brought here illegally.
A close analogy is the “Dreamers,” but that also doesn’t work because, while they themselves didn’t enter on their own accord, their parents did. The closest analogy are the children of people who were also brought here as slaves, such as kidnapped sex slaves. Those people didn’t enter on their own accord, just as the illegally obtained slaves of the 1800s.
In any event, all of the above are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, and are therefore citizens.
The argument is that if 19th century African slaves were illegally imported and had a baby, then the parents were deportable but not the baby.
Is that really what people thought the 14A meant? I doubt it. That situation is very far removed from present circumstances anyway.
Good analysis, and I thought of the Dreamers too, not quite being analogous. Overall, the mock concern about illegally imported slaves is a bit of a red herring. Because while their importation might have violated federal law, the state of residency/citizenship law pre-14A gave the states greater authority. That was important to the holding in Dred Scott. I doubt a slave state would say that illegally imported slaves were not legally domiciled. Otherwise how could their masters continue to hold them in bondage? Not unlike birthright citizenship, once a slave was here, he was here. The prohibition on importation was a potential penalty against the importer, risking confiscation and expulsion at a port of entry. Not afterwards.
"A close analogy is the “Dreamers,” but that also doesn’t work because, while they themselves didn’t enter on their own accord, their parents did."
The Dreamers were not born here. They were brought here illegally as children by their parents. Deporting them would not be a punishment as that word is traditionally understood. They would be having a purported benefit removed that they never had a right to begin with. One that was unlawfully attempted to be given to them by their parents illegal acts.
If my father steals $1 million and gives it to me, is it unfair to "punish" me by taking the $1 million and giving it back to its rightful owner?
Touché about the Dreamers. They weren’t born here, and thus aren’t analogous at all. Good catch. (I feel like a dope making that oversight.)
Well you *finally* got a win.
The court rather blows a hole in its “full regulatory authority” theory of jurisdiction with this little detail :
“While the United States could deal with the Tribes “either through treaties made by the President and Senate, or through Acts of Congress in the ordinary forms of legislation:, the court in Elk recognized that “”(g)eneral Acts of Congress did not apply to Indians, unless so expressed as to clearly manifest an intention to include them.”
So, Indians are not subject to the “full regulatory authority” of the United States…...except when the United States chooses to make them so !
Nor is this purely theoretical – Congress chose to make it so with the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924.
The essential issue here, as the court recognizes, is the meaning of “jurisdiction.” And the meaning of “jurisdiction” has to comport with the exceptions – diplomats, and foreign armies in occupation; and tribal Indians. While it would be sufficient under English common law to grant the first two exceptions “because common law” or “because customary international law” – that won’t do for the US Constitution which has codified the rule with an actual word – “jurisdiction.” Nor obviously does common law or customary international law get us anywhere near the exception for tribal Indians.
Gould’s effort falls short on explaining how the exceptions are explicable by an appeal to full regulatory authority, when Indians are, and always were, subject to the United States' regulatory authority as and when Congress so chooses.
The full regulatory authority thing is also a bit rickety :
(1) as regards diplomats, whose immunity rests on Congress choosing not to withdraw it
(2) and as regards extraterritorial legislation, from which Congress has not shrunk
You said magic words here: "Congress chose to make it so".
It might be possible for Congress to change the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction", in the abstract, though I doubt it. It absolutely cannot be done by executive order. Anti-birthright citizenship confuse their goal with the means here. Because MAGA is often as indifferent to the rule of law as progressives.
If you bother to read the ratification debates, there can be no doubt that the drafters and ratifiers of the citizenship clause believed the U.S. would choose who was subject to its jurisdiction.
They absolutely did not think that; indeed, that's an insane claim. The entire purpose of the birthright citizenship clause was to strip all authority away from the government to decide who was a citizen at birth.
If that were true, then the 14A would have said that everyone born in the USA is a citizen.
It did say that. With a really really really narrow set of exceptions.
Of course they did. It is discussed ad nauseum in the debates. The U.S. chose for example to bring persons into their jurisdiction when they acquired Alaska and Hawaii. The purpose was not to strip away all authority, it was to establish a neutral principle for determining who would be a citizen.
In the debate, Johnson discussed that in some cases, Indian tribes were indeed subject to US laws. Trumbull responded:
TRUMBULL: Not except where it is done under special provision - not with the wild Indians of the plains.
JOHNSON: By special provision of legislation. That I understand. I am referring to that.
TRUMBULL: We propose to make citizens of those brought under our jurisdiction in that way. Nobody objects to that, I reckon.
So you see, the U.S. could choose - by regulation, treaty, foreign policy, and other acts of legislation - who would be made subject to its jurisdiction. What the US could not do - and what the purpose of the amendment was to prevent the US from doing - was to make persons born in the US subject to its jurisdiction, without making them citizens.
What sort of logic is citizenship without consent, anyway? To obtain citizenship in a country against the will of that country, by violating its laws? Makes no sense.
The. Kids. Did. Not. Violate. Any. Laws.
I did bother to read those debates. What you say is not true.
You need to give up on this line of argument M L. Everyone by now has read the ratification debates and concluded that you're lying / retarded.
It might be possible for Congress to change the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction", in the abstract, though I doubt it.
You are confusing the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction" with "the set of people who are subject to the jurisdiction." When an accredited foreign diplomat ceases to be an accredited foreign diplomat, and chooses to live here as a college Professor with a green card, there is a new member of the set of people who are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. But the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" remains unchanged.
Congress can affect the set of people subject to the jurisdiction of the United States by, for example, passing laws affecting who may come here. But it can't change the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction" in the constitution. If you are an originalist that is. Obviously if you are a living constitutionalist then Congress can change the meaning of anything in the constitution that the Supreme Court feels has arrived at the time for a change.
This is a great distinction--I'm going to steal it and starting using it in the future.
Exactly. The US is choosing who to make subject to its jurisdiction, when it regulates and allows immigration, for example. Changing the meaning of the term, as used in the Constitution, is not allowed except by amendment - if you are an originalist.
The point was belabored in the ratification debates: the U.S. could choose to bring the Indian territories within its jurisdiction, if it wanted to. Therefore, some worried, were Indian territories not subject to jurisdiction now, since Congress had the power to make them subject to laws? The majority did not think so. Trumbull compared making Indian territories subject to laws with making Mexico subject to laws - it was like taking over foreign territory.
Tribal Indians, like Mexicans and other foreigners, were not subject to "jurisdiction," it was explained, because they owed allegiance to a foreign entity -- an entity with which the U.S. would deal by treaty. An entity with geographical territory, within which they were not subject to U.S. laws.
Of course, such people were obviously temporarily subject to U.S. laws if they were to visit other parts of the U.S. They could not go into New York City and kill and steal.
But they were not subject to a "full and complete" political jurisdiction that involved exclusive allegiance - again, this point is really belabored - since they were a subject, tribal member, citizen, or whatever of, i.e. had allegiance to, a foreign or quasi-foreign entity.
So what if Trump issued an executive order saying that he would not subject illegal aliens or their children to punishment for minor misdemeanors?
Would it follow then that they are not "subject to the jurisdiction" and therefore the children are not citizens?
It would, of course, not follow. A refusal to prosecute is not an inability to prosecute. And a refusal to prosecute minor misdemeanors is not a refusal to prosecute at all.
How does this differ from the Indian tribes? We simply chose not to prosecute them for crimes on the reservation. We had the ability to do so. Literally every freedom the Indians had from the time we got here was done because we hadn't chosen to take the next step, yet.
And if it makes a difference, we say that these newborns will not be punished for any crimes at all.
I think that is a combination of treaty, and subsequent congressional statutes. Just like Congress eventually granted them citizenship.
The point being the default constitutional meaning is that Indians not taxed are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, unless they agree to it by treaty or Congress, being the more equal sovereign, changes the law. A case of overlapping sovereign jurisdiction on Indian territory, which alas Congress can always unilaterally redefine what that territory is.
Which is why I say Congress maybe could, hypothetically, change the jurisdiction of the United States when it comes to illegal immigrants, but probably not.
We have treaties with the Indians that give them the exclusive authority to punish conduct on reservations (which are part of the USA). We have no such treaties with foreign nations that permit those nations to punish crimes committed in the USA while stripping US courts from doing so.
Our treaties with other foreign nations do not need to address that specific issue, because other foreign nations do not actually sit on U.S. territory. But treaties generally DO address how each party will respect the others laws and jurisdiction over things that happen on their turf involving their people, e.g. extradition etc.
Congrats! You have stated why Indians aren't like other foreigners: foreign nations do not sit on U.S. territory. Foreigners, unlike Indians, are accountable in US courts for their conduct throughout the USA.
Well, things that are different things aren't the same. That much is true.
I imagine if a Mexican tourist ventured deep into Indian territories in the 1800s and killed an Indian or stole something, the U.S. probably would not have seen it as any of their business. Even if they did . . . it's hard to fathom that this is your argument.
I don't share your imagination that foreigners would be treated differently than Americans on reservations. Both are accountable in US courts.
Are you conceding that if we had such treaties with foreign government then there would be no birthright citizenship? And if so, why is a treaty required?
Why couldn't Congress pass a law stating that children under 5 born to illegal immigrant parents are not amenable to being hailed into our courts?
IOW, if our status with the Indians is so easily manipulable through our choice of action or inaction, why not any other group?
Why couldn't the president simply state that he would not prosecute such children?
Children under 5 do not get prosecuted anyway.
As Lee Moore has pointed out, "subject to the jurisdiction" has a fixed meaning but who comes under it can change by treaty or statute (sorry, an EO is prosecutorial discretion and does not change who comes under US jurisdiction).
So yes, if we had such a treaty, the kids of that nation would not have birthright citizenship in the USA. And in theory a statute could do the same thing. But such a statute would be a get out of jail free card for the parents for any conduct while in the USA of their child. No court anywhere in the world would have jurisdiction to punish the parents (or anyone else) for the conduct of the child.
Statute can add to it, but cannot subtract from it.
I disagree even though (of course) a statute can add to those who are granted non-14A birthright citizenship, e.g., Indians through 8 USC 1401(b). And of course, a statute cannot change the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction." But, a statute or treaty can change whether a person is subject to the jurisdiction.
For example, Indians were found not be 14A citizens at birth because they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the USA on reservations. But if a treaty or statute gave the USA jurisdiction over Indians on reservations, then they would have been 14A citizens without 8 USC 1401(b).
That would be an example of adding to it.
Prosecutorial discretion is nothing more than that. The ability to make such a decision indicates that the people in question are indeed subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. That's essentially what DACA is.
Again, how is that different that Indian tribes, diplomats, or invading soldiers? We could choose to punish these people with local laws, however we decline to do so.
Because none of those things happen because of prosecutorial discretion. They cannot be prosecuted according to the law. Conflating outcomes with authorization is incorrect. Just like DACA doesn't make an illegal alien legal.
I edited my comment a bit for clarity.
To your question, I think there would be a lot of problems with your idea.
First, again, "subject to jurisdiction" clearly did not simply mean "subject to laws" if we are going to go by what the drafters and ratifiers thought. Nobody doubted that any Indian who visited New York City was subject to U.S. laws, temporarily while visiting. And, nobody doubted that certain Indian groups were not subject to laws, within their territories. Other groups of Indians had no such quasi-foreign tribal status, no quasi-sovereign territory within which they were not subject to U.S. laws. And this latter group, nobody doubted that they were to citizens. Yet there was a good deal of angst and debate over the former group, "wild Indians of the plains" and others. The debate was whether those groups might be considered "subject to jurisdiction" in light of the facts that they were technically within U.S. territory, could perhaps be made subject to law, and just overall had a unique status. The majority decided that such tribal Indians were not subject to jurisdiction, since they were for the time being at least, dealt with by treaty and not subject to U.S. laws within their territory. Therefore the amendment, offered by Doolittle I think, to add the words "excluding Indians not taxed" was not passed. (This language came from the 1866 Civil Rights Act which provided "That all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States; and such citizens, of every race and color . . . ." - Note that it was completely undisputed among the drafters and ratifiers that they had the exact same object in mind as the CRA's citizenship clause, including that "not subject to any foreign power phrase." Nobody disagreed with that, they had the same objective, they just thought the 14a language was an improvement on the original - but meant the same exact thing, particularly regarding the "not subject to any foreign power" part).
So, the fact that someone is subject to misdemeanor laws while present in the U.S. does not mean they are subject to "jurisdiction" in this sense. In other words, jurisdiction is not a necessary condition of being subject to laws.
On the other hand, I suppose being subject to laws IS a necessary condition of being subject to jurisdiction, so perhaps if someone is not subject to laws this demonstrates they are not subject to jurisdiction. That's where your idea comes in. One problem of doing that on an executive level, is if it is contrary to any statute. My guess is that it would be, so Trump could not do that. Beyond that separation of powers issue, even if Congress was considering something like this, it doesn't strike me as necessary or useful, but perhaps something like that could happen.
I have not thought much about whether Trump's EO is valid as an executive action. I have explored the original meaning of the citizenship clause, but I had assumed it would take legislation to change the status quo. But it does appear the current operative statutory language is interestingly quite sparse and just echoes the 14a, so there may be sort of a vacuum of legislative action there currently that leaves opportunity for executive action.
None of this is true. This is you just trying to work backwards to get the result you desire. Not unlike how sovereign citizens claim immunity from taxation and other federal law.
No one has claimed that Indians not being subject to the jurisdiction is exactly the same as foreign diplomats or invading enemy soldiers. However, both of those are excluded because both remain subject to another jurisdiction, not just loyalty, but full criminal and civil law. Foreign diplomats can be prosecuted for crimes they commit abroad. Soldiers are subject to their own military justice when invading foreign territory. An illegal alien is not subject to his home country's justice system for crimes he commits in the United States. A president declaring he won't punish any such crimes does not magically remove the jurisdiction of the United States.
The foundation of birthright citizenship is a combination of the 14th amendment and the common law which long preceded it, as past court opinions have described. It's not a vacuum, just because you want to ignore all that.
It's true . . . I can't help it if you failed to understand what you read.
What did you think all the debate over Indians was about?
Using the adverb "clearly" does not make the proposition true, let alone clearly true.
Do you think Indians had some sort of diplomatic immunity if they visited New York City?
What kind of retarded thoughts go through that brain of yours? Nobody is suggesting that everyone under US jurisdiction is a citizen! Please get help!
Once again: then neither were Wong Kim Ark's parents, so he wouldn't have been a birthright citizen either. They remained citizens (subjects) of China (a foreign entity, obviously), and indeed could not become citizens of the United States.
Yes, and that (dicta) part of Wong Kim Ark is clearly incorrect as a matter of original meaning, and also according to Elk v. Wilkins. But I would argue that part of Wong is dicta, not holding.
Also the context of Wong Kim Ark is that the Chinese Exclusion Acts at the time placed Wong and others in a unique and difficult situation, they could not become naturalized and had no legal manner of obtaining citizenship, which created a class of permanent lawful residents with permanent alien status through generations. This paralleled descendants of African slaves after Dred Scott, which was precisely the thing the CRA and 14a were intended to address.
What do you think is dicta from Wong? What do you think the holding in Wong is?
The holding is that someone born here to domiciled parents is a citizen under the clause.
Dicta would be everything else, and there is a whole lot of loose language, have you read the case? I can't recall a more poorly written pile of crap in a SCOTUS opinion, but I don't read that many opinions, like you do. And obviously much of that loose language I disagree with.
I don't necessarily have strong views on whether WKA is wrongly decided, or whether the holding is narrow and limited to the facts of lawful and permanent domicile. Of course an advocate before the court should argue the latter, but I'm not acting as an advocate here.
Nieporent pointed out that Wong's parents did not have exclusive allegiance to the USA ["They remained citizens (subjects) of China (a foreign entity, obviously)"]. Thus according to your argument, the holding in Wong was wrong. And yet you responded to David's point with ramblings on dicta.
I have always said that Wong is in some ways problematic from an original meaning perspective, according to what the drafters and ratifiers propounded. (While more contemporaneous cases like Slaughterhouse and Elk v Wilkins, are not). Nonetheless, it can be distinguished from illegal aliens and tourists.
If you're taking Wong to turn on domicile, it can't really be distinguished from illegal aliens. Illegal aliens can be domiciled in the US just fine.
It could be, but not based on your "exclusive allegiance" argument.
This is exactly the problem: that people like you believe that the domicile status of the parents is legally relevant. It's descriptive of Wong's parents, but has nothing to do with his legal claim to citizenship. It's not parental permission to be in the United States that establishes the jurisdiction of the United States. It's being within the territory of the United States that establishes jurisdiction, subject to the foreign diplomat and enemy soldier exceptions. That's it. An executive order can't change that. It can only ignore it. Which means nothing for citizenship status.
Right, well the drafters and ratifiers just didn't see it that way. They were, in their mind, constitutionalizing the provision of the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which excluded those "subject to any foreign power." The Supreme Court also didn't see it that way in Slaughterhouse Cases, and then again in Elk v Wilkins.
None of that is true. You just keep saying it because you need it to be true to prevail. As Nieporent just explained.
That's not the original public meaning, because the ratifiers understood the implications of the common law citizenship jus soli. If they wanted to avoid that, they would have needed additional language to overcome that common law principle
Do you need me to point you to what they said? Just one example of many:
TRUMBULL: "..the language proposed in this constitutional amendment is better than the language in the civil rights bill. The object to be arrived at is the same."
Either your reading comprehension is exceptionally bad, or you're just biased and arguing for what you want to be true.
I'm sorry; I don't understand what you mean by "that part" or "dicta" in reference to WKA. I'm saying that if your interpretation of the 14A were correct, then the holding of WKA is wrong. WKA should not have been a citizen. His parents being lawfully present here when he was born is utterly irrelevant to the test you propose. No citizens of another country regardless of the lawfulness of their presence, meet your misunderstanding of "subject to the jurisdiction."¹ The problem with this interpretation is that then the operative language of the 14A doesn't do anything, other than (possibly) making blacks into citizens. And we know that's not what was understood, both from logic and from the debates themselves.
¹I reiterate, however, that the entire inquiry is misguided; the 14A doesn't say "all persons born in the U.S. and whose parents are subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens. All that matters is whether the kidis.
Yes to footnote 1. Anti-birthright people are fundamentally mistaken about what the legal obstacle is to their preferred outcome. They think this line of argumentation can get them what they want. It can't, because as you say it violates the relevant prior precedent, which they do not understand.
The relevance of the legal status of Wong Kim Ark's parents simply was not discussed and therefore not ruled upon.
Maybe it makes no difference as you claim, but that's not at all intuitive from the opinion especially given the strong presumption that the law does not award legal behavior.
As far as WKA goes, see my responses to Josh R above.
It's weird that you claim to have read the congressional and ratification debates, where there was significant concern about the Indian question as you rightly note (not accidentally making them citizens by imprecise language), yet do not recognize how they resolved that issue in a way which does not support your anti-birthright citizenship argument. Tribal Indians are nothing like "illegal immigrants", because even all immigrants are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in a way that tribal Indians are not. Being subject to the jurisdiction is not a national loyalty question, it's being covered by criminal laws and civil obligations, including taxation, which is why tribal Indians are not covered. Because they are not taxed (prior existing language in the Constitution uses that term of art as the distinction).
Illegal alien children will not be taxed. Does that solve the issue?
"all immigrants are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in a way that tribal Indians are not."
No they weren't. Both of them would have been subject to laws when visiting the U.S. proper. Both of them were not subject to US laws while in their foreign (or quasi-foreign in the case of Indians) homelands.
The only difficulty at issue was whether quasi-foreign Indians were sufficiently foreign to be like other foreigners.
If you had read the ratification debates and such, you would know that the purpose of the 14a citizenship clause was to constitutionalize the 1866 Civil Rights Act. That Act read "That all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States; and such citizens, of every race and color . . . ."
Everyone agreed they were trying to constitutionalize this language.
I already told you I had read it.
I'm saying again you a cherry picking those who raised the Indian issue during debates, but that was not what others thought which ended up being the final original public meaning--as subsequently affirmed via later court decisions. Indians are treated specially not just because of the 14A ratification debates, but the constitutional law that preceded it. Which subsequent court decisions affirmed. It's weird that you're trying to recon that now, to justify something else.
Oh, now I'm just cherry picking, huh?
You want to focus a little more on court decisions instead of the ratification debates, now, eh?
Maybe one court decision in particular and not earlier ones, if I had to venture a guess?
As people have explained below, the court decision don't help your position either. They track what I call the accepted original public meaning which contradicts your cherry picking. As someone below cogently summarized, the anti Chinese/Gypsy position was fully discussed and dismissed.
The domicile status of Wong's parents was not legally relevant to the final decision. It was instead the common law citizenship principle of soil that undergirded the amendment text
You're scrambling and lost the plot here my friend.
An Indian, just like any other foreigner, would have to follow US laws if they were visiting New York City, for example.
Can you provide Trumbull's words that compared Mexico to the Indians?
Indians, unlike Mexicans and other foreigners, cannot be held accountable for conduct engaged in everywhere in the USA (reservations are part of the USA).
I know I sound like a broken record, but what you observe is true only because we have made a choice to do that. We could punish all crimes on the reservation tomorrow. We could disestablish the reservations. We could announce that babies born in the United States, under the age of five, to illegal immigrant parents are not subject to criminal punishments or taxation.
All of this is true only because we choose it to be.
On the Indians part, I agree if our treaties are no longer in effect (but, it no longer is needed because Indians got birthright citizenship through statute).
On foreigners, not without a comparable treaty with the foreign nation giving them exclusive authority to punish conduct.
HENDRICKS: I wish to know if, in his opinion, it is not a matter of pleasure on the part of the Government of the United States, and especially of Congress, whether the laws of the US be extended over the Indians or not; if it is not a matter to be decided by Congress alone whether we treat the Indians by treaty or govern them by direct law; in other words, whether Congress has not the power at its pleasure to extend the laws of the US over the Indians and to govern them.
TRUMBULL: I suppose it would have the same power that it has to extend the laws of the United States over Mexico and govern her if in our discretion we thought proper to . . . I suppose you may say in this case we have the power to do it, but it would be a violation of our treaty obligations, a violation of the faith of this nation, to extend our laws over these Indian tribes with whom we have made treaties saying we would not do it.
FESSENDEN: We could extend it over Mexico in the same way.
TRUMBULL: I say we could extend it over Mexico just as well; that is, if we have the power to do it . . .
That above exchange does not support the bold part of your claim that "Trumbull compared making Indian territories subject to laws with making Mexico subject to laws - it was like taking over foreign territory."
Firstly, that last part "if we have the power to do it" only applies to Mexico. Trumbull acknowledged that power exists for Indians. It's just we shouldn't exercise that power because of our treaty obligations.
Secondly, even assuming by some magic we have the power to extend our laws over Mexico even though it is a sovereign nation, that extension nonetheless is over territory outside the USA. In contrast, extending our power over Indians occurs inside the USA.
I don't understand your point. Congress has chosen to make illegal aliens subject to its regulatory authority. So?
I feel like everyone agrees that if Congress chose to withdraw its authority over illegal aliens, they would no longer enjoy birthright citizenship. (Assuming it's a good-faith withdrawal, as with diplomats, and not just a lame attempt at threading a loophole, such as that proposed above by the West Virginian.)
If you claim the authority to require me to obey you, then whether you choose to exercise it now, or not, is irrelevant to whether you claim authority to require me to obey you.
“Jurisdiction” under Gould’s theory is the authority to require me to obey you.
Thus tribal Indians who Congress chooses not to exercise its authority to govern today, but reserves the right to govern tomorrow, are already within the Gouldian definition of jurisdiction. Which we know is incorrect. Hence his definition is wrong.
“Jurisdiction” under Gould’s theory is the authority to require me to obey you.
I suspect you're just misinterpreting Gould, since that wouldn't work for diplomatic immunity either.
I agree and I made that point in the comment you originally replied to. The United States grants diplomatic immunity to diplomats because it chooses to ( I imagine pursuant to some treaty it has signed up to.)
But the United States has the authority to withdraw that immunity if it chooses using, as the court says, ordinary legislation.
Consequently the court’s explanation of jurisdiction does no better with diplomatic immunity than it does with tribal Indians.
The tribal Indians thing simply makes it clearer that this is an incoherent account of jurisdiction because there is no possible appeal to customary international law.
Ok I read the opinion and as I thought, you're misinterpreting it.
Gould agrees that we've chosen to exempt diplomats from our authority, and that we could choose to exempt illegal aliens as well... but that no sane country would make that decision, since it would encourage rampant lawbreaking.
Demonstrating that you (undoubtedly deliberately) and Gould (conceivably unknowingly) are skipping past the obvious point that having the authority to choose to apply or not apply your laws to various classes of people, as you please, demonstrates that they are already under your authority. Else your decision to apply your laws to them would be beyond your authority. As I mentioned, the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 demonstrates conclusively that tribal Indians were within the "jurisdiction" - in Gould's incoherent "full regulatory authority" sense - all along.
And no - choosing to exempt a class of people from the sovereign's authority does not mean that their actions are necessarily unpoliced. The sovereign can leave them as outlaws, to be policed by the public without the encumbrance of due process.
It is vital that illegal federal policies not be immunized from challenge by arbitrary judicially created procedural rule
Very much this.
I disagree. Courts should not be stopping the executive from arguably exceeding its authority by wildly exceeding their own.
And again, nobody is saying that courts cannot give plaintiffs in court the relief that they seek. They just can't give it to nonparties. That keeps them in their proper lane.
Weird how that "unclean hands" argument discussed below only seems to cut one way.
It doesn't. The unclean hands doctrine means that you may be prohibited equitable relief because of your bad prior actions that make it unfair for you to obtain that relief.
It doesn't mean that the other party gets ultra vires relief.
"Arguably"? And who says that the courts are wildly exceeding their own authority by merely stopping the Executive from exceeding its authority?
It seems to me that you accept the current executive's exceeding authority by denying the judiciary's ability to do anything about it, simply because you approve of the current executive.
I agree Trump’s citizenship proclamation is batshit crazy so far as any serious interpretation of the 14th Amendment is concerned.
However, I think that the 9th Circuit cannot avoid the limitations on universal injunctions in CASA. Like it or not, CASA is a precedent lower courts have to abide by despite being a shadow docket case. And like it or not, the main workaround CASA offered, class actions, does not apply to states. Each state can only represent itself and its own citizens. So the universal injunction ordered here does not appear to have a basis in law.
Neither the stakes involved nor the clarity of the merits change this.
Maybe. Maybe not. Look, I'm not going to debate the merits of CASA, because it's settled law.*
That said, states are different, and sovereigns in their own right. I express no opinion on how this Court will resolve any issue at this point, since this Court doesn't seem to particularly care about things like "the law" or "precedent" or even "consistency with its own opinions in other cases," but I don't think CASA is controlling for that reason. The Court makes up special rules for the States (qua States) all the time.
*I will, however, point out that the Court decided to "settle" that law at a very convenient time. Weird, huh? But anyone following the issue knows that the timing isn't a coincidence- and I already provided a link to a very well-researched piece on the overall subject.
In light of what was decided in CASA, states seem to be special cases, because district courts boundaries are not aligned with those of the states, often only sections of them. District court may need a way to grant relief outside of its district's boundaries. Whether that deserves to be "universal" is a follow-on question, I suppose depending on the controversy.
But I think the special rules for states go the other way. As sovereigns, States are unique in a way that individuals are not.
I don’t think a country can file a class action in which it claims to represent the interests of other countries as a matter of law. In our international order, each country is unique and is entitled to represent its own interests. Country A can’t claim to represent Country B’s interests in the courts of Country C without Country B’s consent.
I think states in our federal system get a similar level of comity and respect. Like it or not, there are states whose governments and officals support what Trump is doing. Agree with them or not, I think principles of state autonomy and sovereignty mean that federal law and federal judges can’t permit another state with a different policy to speak for a state in federal court without its consent.
You're still confused about the conversation. The states didn't file a class action. They are each suing on their own behalf.
Suppose a nearby factory is emitting toxic chemicals into the atmosphere, I sue to get an injunction ordering them to stop. I do not need to bring any or all of my neighbors into the case, either via a class action or any other mechanism. If it were scientifically possible for the factory to stop polluting only my property, the court would be required to only issue a narrow order telling them not to do that. But that's not possible, so the court can order the factory to entirely stop emitting those chemicals, even though that would affect/benefit my neighbors and they aren't parties to the case.
The position of the plaintiff states is that the federal government continuing to illegally deny birthright citizenship to those born outside their borders would cause them injury for which they are entitled to relief.
This has nothing to do with representation. The states are not suing parens patriae here. They are suing on their own behalf. And are arguing that to get complete relief for themselves — which CASA does not restrict — they require a broad injunction. That's not to say that the injunction is necessarily valid; perhaps a narrower injunction would fully redress their injuries. But it does not violate CASA.
My "unclean hands" argument against illegal alien birthright citizenship has no trouble with the illegally imported slaves case. https://ericrasmusen.substack.com/p/birthright-citizenship-the-issue
Your argument is doubly wrong. First, "that's not fair" is not a legal argument; the unclean hands doctrine applies only to issues of equity, not law. But citizenship is a legal question.
Second is that, of course, the people at issue have 100% clean hands; they're babies who did nothing wrong. (Except from the perspective of weirdos who believe in original sin, I guess, but that doctrine is not, obviously, recognized by our legal system.)
But habeas is an equitable remedy. And these pregnant women who are here illegally are arguing that they should be able to bestow citizenship on their children. Why they aren't immediately deported after identifying themselves as such is beyond me.
Also, nobody is saying that the children did anything wrong. The argument is that they should be disgorged from the wrongful benefit given to them illegally by their parents. Much like as I mentioned above if my father steals $1 million and gives it to me. I didn't do anything wrong and won't go to prison, but the law can take that money from me.
TF? What on earth do you think this has to do with habeas?
And, no, they are not arguing that they should be able to bestow citizenship on their children; they are arguing that the constitution bestows citizenship on their children.
BTW, Trump's EO extends to people who are here entirely legally, so even if the mistaken "unclean hands" argument applied the EO would be unlawful.
That's presumably why some of them are proceeding via pseudonym.
If Trump detains these people, they will bring a habeas and then the unclean hands argument would come into play.
What?
So ... you're an attorney, so I know you can read what you just wrote.
Citizenship at birth is not a "benefit." It's part of the Constitution (again, if you know the history, it just codifies, in the Constitution, the prior jus solis rule that applied and ensures that it will apply to the freed slaves; moreover, it was understood to apply to the children of immigrants when it was ratified, and it was further interpreted by a nearly contemporaneous Supreme Court decision with really bad facts, which is about as good as originalism can ever provide).
Second, you can't just mix and match in equity. "Unclean hands" is not "disgorgement." Pro tip- think about what disgorgement, as an equitable remedy, actually entails. Now, why doesn't that work here?
Motivated reasoning is not a good approach in law. You can't start with your conclusion (I don't want them to have Citizenship despite what the Constitution states) and then throw around concepts with the hope that your unconstitutional wishes might be legitimate.
I am an attorney and I understand what question begging is. The whole dispute we are having is whether the constitution grants birthright citizenship.
Once you have concluded it does, then you are right and I am wrong. I think there is a cognizable argument that "subject to the jurisdiction" does not include those who surreptitiously cross the border much akin to an invading army.
Fine. But, "unclean hands" can't be the argument against birthright citizenship for children born to unlawfully present parents.
Citizenship is not a benefit. It is a right. That is the entire controversy, trying to cast it as something less than a right, so that it can be made conditional by ordinary action (executive or legislative).
Courts have already found that citizenship is "special". It cannot be taken away via subsequent ordinary legislation if it was granted that way (fraud excepted)--except, I suppose, via a treaty as an exercise of international law where territory is given up. I'm unsure what would happen to Puerto Ricans were they granted independence...would any keep their citizenship? Would there be a repatriation deadline, where all this domiciled on the island by a certain date would cease to be US citizens?
They would have to keep their citizenship, because there is no authority for stripping it away. I suspect U.S. law would contemporaneously with independence, be amended so that their children born outside the U.S. (including in Puerto Rico, which would no longer be part of the U.S.) after independence would not be citizens, though.
(Remember that jus sanguinis is merely statutory, while jus soli is constitutional. )
Then we can discuss why your "subject to the jurisdiction" argument is wrong.
But when you start just substituting in equitable arguments you aren't even engaging with legal analysis. You're just hoping to get to the conclusion you want.
So try again. Unclean hands doesn't work. So why doesn't disgorgement work? You should know this.
If only the 1866 Congress had thought about your scenario.
Oh wait, they unambiguously did, over the objections of the anti-Chinese and anti-gypsy crowd. Imagine that.
Did you read about the Chinese and Gyspies discussion somewhere, and think it would be a clever thing to bring up?
It isn't.
Senator Cowan ranted about Chinese and Gypsies, and his entire rant was irrelevant.
The immediate response to his rant was Conness: "Mr. President, I have failed to learn, from what the Senator has said, what relation what he has said has to the first section of the constitutional amendment before us."
You might say Cowan was "flooding the zone with shit," 170 years ago.
The point is, that discussion won't help you interpret the clause. At least, not in the way you desperately want it to be interpreted.
We can look to a related, contemporaneous Congressional record, where they were discussing the 1866 Civil Rights Act, to shed more light on this. There, again, Cowan was ranting. Trubmull responded:
TRUMBULL: I understand that under the naturalization laws the children who are born here of parents who have not been naturalized are citizens. This is the law, as I understand it, at the present time. Is not the child born in this country of German parents a citizen? I am afraid we have got very few citizens in some of the counties of good old Pennsylvania if the children born of German parents are not citizens.
COWAN: The honorable Senator assumes that which is not the fact. The children of German parents are citizens; but Germans are not Chinese; Germans are not Australians, nor Hottentots, nor anything of the kind. That is the fallacy of his argument.
TRUMBULL: If the Senator from Pennsylvania will show me in the law any distinction made between the children of German parents and the children of Asiatic parents, I may be able to appreciate the point which he makes; but the law makes no such distinction; and the child of an Asiatic is just as much of a citizen as the child of a European.
_______
So you see, Cowan's point had nothing to do with legal matters of jurisdiction, allegiance, or anything of the sort. It has no bearing on the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" and was never intended to address that subject. Instead, he was just ranting about Chinese and Gypsies based on race.
You completely misunderstand the import of this exchange. He's saying, "It would be terrible to enact this because it would make these people's kids citizens." And the rejoinder was, "Yes it would. So what?" Whereas your response is, "No, it wouldn't."
In other words, everyone agreed that your reading is wrong; they just disagreed on its desirability.
Whoosh!
Try reading it again, more slowly this time. Trumbull said - they are already citizens. The law already makes no distinction. The 14a won't change anything in this regard.
Even if we imagine, for purely hypothetical purposes, that there was some law discriminating between the children of Asiatic parents vs those of German parents with regard to citizenship, and that the 14a was changing the law in this regard, this exchange would still have no bearing at all on the meaning of "jurisdiction." It would just mean the 14a removed a racially discriminatory law that distinguished between Germans and Chinese, as such.
Forget about the discriminatory part. Trumbull was saying that under current law people born in the USA of non-citizen parents were US citizens at birth. Are you arguing Trumbull believed the CRA would change current law and limit birthright citizenship to people born of at least one citizen parent?
"Trumbull was saying that under current law people born in the USA of non-citizen parents were US citizens at birth."
Agreed - at least, most of them (excluding, it would seem, foreign persons on holiday, for example).
"Are you arguing Trumbull believed the CRA would change current law and limit birthright citizenship to people born of at least one citizen parent?"
Certainly not.
But, as you know, the CRA excluded those "subject to any foreign power." And Trumbull believed the jurisdiction clause meant the same thing, in his own words, "Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means."
So how do you interpret that? Just ignore it?
You have put Trumbull in an impossible bind. All those German parents owe an allegiance to Germany (they are still German citizens) and therefore their kids can't be US citizens at birth. And yet he also argues their kids are US citizens at birth. How do you reconcile that?
I interpret it to mean exactly what everyone at the time interpreted it to mean: people who were here other than diplomats, and invading armies. A foreigner present in the U.S. owes allegiance to the U.S.
"You have put Trumbull in an impossible bind."
I am fairly presenting, I believe, the whole of his statements on the matter. If that puts him in a bind, it's not me who did it, but he himself. And not just him, but Howard and the others did this as well.
I don't think they were muddled, incoherent thinkers or orators. I also don't think they were duplicitous. The remaining possibility is that their statements did not put them in a bind, that they were not inconsistent.
As far as I can tell the way to explain that would be to start with the fact that the general American population considered themselves to have renounced prior allegiances, by declaring independence and rebelling against England, which flew in the face of foundational notions of subjectship and allegiances under English common law. Those that came after the revolution and domiciled there (with the USA's implicit or explicit blessing/permission) were deemed to have done likewise.
What you should conclude is we ought to ignore Trumbull, Howard and everyone else instead of conducting Olympic-worthy acrobatics in order to reconcile their statements.
Go with the text, and if the text isn't clear, go with historical practice.
They weren't. Not sure why you keep coming up with more and more absurdities to avoid just admitting that the 14A means exactly what it says.
I don't think it was understood to apply to the kids of illegal aliens.
In the narrowest literal sense, this is true; it wasn't understood that way, because the concept of "illegal alien" didn't even exist. In the broader sense, this is wrong, because it was understood to apply to everyone (or, rather, everyone's kids), and the children of illegal aliens are, of course, a subset of "everyone."
I do understand (and kind of agree) that the executive order is not unlike the sham prosecution in Griswold v Connecticut, albeit actually sincere: it's a legal vehicle to get another bite at the judicial apple, attempting to obtain a different result. No private citizen has standing to challenge the birthright citizenship of the child of dn illegal alien. This purported executive order creates an actual harm to litigate. Cynical but effective. It's proponents do not necessarily believe in its legal validity. They are rolling the dice hoping the courts will reverse the precedent.
Just catching up here. Assume Briggitte Macron is traveling in the U.S. and squat drops a baby in the U.S. Obviously, and for various reasons highlighted by Candice Owens, this is a hypothetical. Assume she is not acting as a diplomat or foreign emissary or otherwise exempted from citizenship by virtue of other recognized laws. The baby is President Macron's. That baby is a U.S. citizen? Wouldn't President Macron have the ability to object to the U.S. exercising its jurisdiction over the child when it later returns to France? Would Macron be precluded from forcing the U.S. to return the baby to France? I think this hypothetical demonstrates the "subject to the jurisdiction" issue and opens a more sordid issue for discussion.
You don't know that the familial dependents of diplomats and foreign officials traveling in their official capacities share that status under international law and treaties? (As long as they are properly accredited/registered.)
So no, it does not open a more sordid issue for discussion.
If you read my hypo I noted she was vacationing. Assume she is not on official business and is alone. Assume this diplomatic/foreign official classification is not applicable.
That clarification still does not make it a more sordid issue for discussion. Unless by sordid you mean you are offended by birth tourism. Which is a totally legal thing in the abstract, but I guess is the cause cé·lè·bre which agitates the nativists. It is not some glaring loophole that needs to be solved. It just is. If Brigitte is not traveling under her diplomatic passport, which makes her not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, she is just like any other legal visitor, assuming she has a visa. I don't know what the standard protocol is for private visits.
An easier way to mitigate against this is more stringent visa screening for pregnancy, which may already be a thing for all I know. Of course, given that most pregnant women are not supposed to fly in their last trimester, it may not be that much of an actual problem (except via ship arrival or North American ground transportation) given what I assume is short duration of many tourism visas (ignoring overstaying the visa or premature labor).
Like I hinted at, the nativists are not bothered by legal tourists giving birth. This is all about the illegal ones. This is not some aha gotcha revelation.
I'm guessing you think there is a difference in your hypo and a baby born to an "ordinary" French tourist. Assuming I am right, what do you think the relevant difference is?
I think an analysis of the hypo is worth exploring. The child later goes back to France and the U.S. seeks to impose it's laws on the activities of that child going forward as if though said child was a U.S. citizen. Alternatively, the U.S. refuses to relinquish custody of the child insisting that proper U.S. laws and procedures be followed by President Macron. I honestly think this is problematic and gets to the crux of the jurisdiction issue. I don't post here often and probably should not have mentioned Candice - bad form. But as an Attorney of almost 30 years here in Georgia, I think the hypothetical is properly tailored to examine the singular issue of "jurisdiction" in the context of birth right citizenship. One last assumption. Because Briggitte did not wish to advertise her travel to the U.S. she entered improperly such that she was here illegally.
Now you're really embarrassing yourself. Even more so by disclosing you're a lawyer. Misrepresenting how extraterritorial US law works, all because you're trying to debunk "subject to the jurisdiction".
If someone is a US citizen, they are a citizen, until/unless they renounce it. Not sure who or why you think some unnamed authority might reach out to control this baby, against the wishes of its parents. Our family law has reach/jurisdiction only to the extent that a parent is a citizen, and is domiciled domestically (state law).
"Subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" means whether such foreign persons are, when they are within the territory of the United States. Nothing more. It has nothing to do with extraterritorial authority when citizens are abroad. US citizens are not subject to the criminal statutes regarding physical interactions outside of US territory, but still are subject to other business/commercial activity/ethics, national security (treason), and tax law matter where they are.
Finally I have no idea what your "because Briggitte did not wish to advertise her travel to the U.S. she entered improperly such that she was here illegally" possibly means. Whether one advertises their entry does not make it legal or not. It's whether they have authorization, by default because of their foreign passport, or via an approved visa.
You addressed nothing. I explained that President Macron might wish to demand his baby be returned to France and that said was never subject and is not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.. The child turns 18, is now in France, and is now required to comply with U.S. law including, if male, register for the draft. If the child is a U.S. citizen then I believe so. And if drafted to serve, then serve he must. I hypoed that, Brigitte, was here illegally. Excuse the literary license with respect to her not wishing to advertise her entry. The point to be assumed was that she was here illegally. Your intellectual honest here is questionable. The hypo was a good one and instead of dealing with the questions raised by the hypothetical you attack the hypo itself and wrongfully so. Hypo again - to the extent anyone ever bothers to revisit this post - A President of another country's wife travels to the U.S.. She enters the U.S. illegally. She gives birth while in the U.S. to the President's son. The President of this other country, call it X, says hey that's my son and you and your laws have no jurisdiction over my son. What then? Simple hypo and again one which perfectly highlights the matters at issue. Is it proper for the U.S. to consider this child, even after he has been conveyed to country X, subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.? Ever heard of rape, outside territorial limits of U.S. and in international waters, but because a U.S. citizen still subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. and subject to prosecution? See, Special Maritime and Territorial Jurisdiction (SMTJ). Ever heard of registering for the draft which applies to U.S. citizens living in other countries. See The Selective Service Act.
To Josh R. I actually don't think there is a difference. But involving the president of another country as the father into the equation provides, let's say, high resolution contrast to the examination of the issue of "jurisdiction" and what it means.
Excuse me Josh, you said assume you were right and that I thought that there was a difference between your average Frenchie and the President of France. I don't know, but, if they were to be treated differently it would take a lot of unique interpreting of the relevant text, precedent, and the like.
If they aren't to be treated differently, then the answer is the child is a 14A US citizen at birth because it can be held accountable in US courts for its conduct while in the USA (i.e., subject to US jurisdiction).
Your imagined problems with this outcome don't make sense as detailed above by Maddog.
Josh this is actually to Maddog. But responds to you as well. Maddog, you addressed nothing. I explained that President Macron might wish to demand his baby be returned to France and that said was never subject and is not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.. The child turns 18, is now in France, and is now required to comply with U.S. law including, if male, register for the draft. If the child is a U.S. citizen then I believe so. And if drafted to serve, then serve he must. I hypoed that, Brigitte, was here illegally. Excuse the literary license with respect to her not wishing to advertise her entry. The point to be assumed was that she was here illegally. Your intellectual honesty here is questionable. The hypo was a good one and instead of dealing with the questions raised by the hypothetical you attack the hypo itself and wrongfully so. Hypo again - to the extent anyone ever bothers to revisit this post - A President of another country's wife travels to the U.S.. She enters the U.S. illegally. She gives birth while in the U.S. to the President's son. The President of this other country, call it X, says hey that's my son and you and your laws have no jurisdiction over my son. What then? Simple hypo and again one which perfectly highlights the matters at issue. Is it proper for the U.S. to consider this child, even after he has been conveyed to country X, subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.? Ever heard of rape, outside territorial limits of U.S. and in international waters, but because a U.S. citizen still subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. and subject to prosecution? See, Special Maritime and Territorial Jurisdiction (SMTJ). Ever heard of registering for the draft which applies to U.S. citizens living in other countries. See The Selective Service Act.
Josh, answer this simple question without deflection - Where a child is born of a mother who is in the U.S. illegally, may the father and mother properly argue that the U.S. has no jurisdiction over the child going forward whatsoever including as relates to U.S. laws which apply to U.S. citizens internationally?
In your hypo, the child has to register for the draft unless they renounce their citizenship. It makes no difference whether their father is the President of France, a cheesemaker or a street mime.
I think we ought to have an exception to birthright citizenship to exclude street mimes.
Your hypo is silly and nonsensical. Either she has special status by dint of being the wife of France's president, or she doesn't. There's no hybrid option. If she has said status, then the child would not be a U.S. citizen; if she doesn't — based on whatever bizarre scenario you came up with (which would not actually work under the law anyway) — then the child would be treated exactly like anyone else who doesn't have special status.
I love it when courts state the obvious.
I love it even more when the Cornell Law Review rips Randy Barnett and his co-Conspirators for their ahistorical, nakedly political argument that the word jurisdiction means allegiance. Originalist my ass.
My comments on this opinion from the prior thread:
1. From the opinion:
"Second, the Court did not hold or even hint that there was a requirement of “primary allegiance” or exclusive allegiance in either Elk or Wong Kim Ark. "
This is, of course, completely false.
From Elk v Wilkins:
"The main object of the opening sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment was to settle the question, upon which there had been a difference of opinion throughout the country and in this Court, as to the citizenship of free negroes..., and to put it beyond doubt that all persons, white or black, and whether formerly slaves or not, born or naturalized in the United States, and owing no allegiance to any alien power, should be citizens of the United States and of the state in which they reside."
There are of course many other flaws in the opinion, which generally comes across as setting out to advocate for a preexisting political opinion. This is just one example.
2. The opinion also entirely misapprehends the relevance of Indians to the citizenship clause issue, and uniformly mischaracterizes quotes from the ratification debates. For example, from the opinion:
"[Trumbull noted] that Indian tribes “are not subject to our jurisdiction in the sense of owing allegiance solely to the United States,” because“[i]t is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens.” Id. at 2893–94 (emphasis added). The Senators recognized that as “quasi foreign nations,” Indian tribes and tribal members were distinct from other noncitizens. . . . Senator Trumbull confirmed that the text covers all persons “who are subject to our laws.”"
No, Senator Trumbull did not confirm any such thing.
In the context of discussing quasi foreign Indian tribes, Trumbull referenced Indians that had become "subject to our laws." That was specifically referring to Indians that were NOT part of any quasi foreign tribe - those that did NOT have any separate territory or treaty status. The Indians that WERE part of a quasi foreign tribe, on the other hand, were NOT "subject to our laws," within their territories. (There is even a direct quote "within the territory" clarifying that point). Trumbull's point was that such quasi foreign Indians were not included in the citizenship clause. These quasi foreign Indians WOULD, however, be "subject to our laws" when outside of the territory. Say they took a visit to New York City for example. They would be subject to laws, just like any other visiting foreigner. But they would NOT be subject to full political jurisdiction - again, just like any other foreigner.
The whole point of the discussion was to illustrate that Indians belonging to a quasi foreign tribe were sufficiently like any other foreigners, who likewise are not "subject to our laws" within their foreign homelands (such Indians were explicitly compared to Mexicans in Mexico in the discussion), that they were not included in the citizenship clause. But, obviously, all of them are still "subject to our laws" outside of their territory or foreign homelands, when they are temporarily visiting. This is just blatantly obvious to anyone who reads the ratification debates.
And it's all besides the point.
Visiting aliens are NOT like tribal Indians off their reservation. Aliens with DIPLOMATIC status ARE like tribal Indians. Neither are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. The children of neither group could obtain citizenship despite being born on US soil.
Visiting aliens on US soil ARE subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
That's it. That's the legal default condition here. There's nothing else. You fundamentally do not understand what is going on here. To the extent that tribal Indians may have been subject to some laws off the reservation, that was because of treaty agreement or congressional legislation. It did not modify the default meaning of being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
The discussion over owing allegiance is descriptive not proscriptive. Allegiance owed is not completely aligned with being subject to any nation state's jurisdiction. Stop conflating them.
Incorrect - Indians were indeed subject to US laws, outside of their territories. Hence, they were nothing like diplomats, but were like any other visiting foreigner.
The drafters and ratifiers were clear that they thought the citizenship clause had the same meaning as the CRA, which specified persons "not subject to any foreign power."
Tribal Indians not being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States was because they were sovereign nations (AKA not citizens ) with limited sovereignty on tribal lands, especially when they lie within the boundaries of United States territory. It didn't mean Congress couldn't legislate within tribal lands. It meant it had to do so explicitly, because tribal lands, and the tribes themselves, were not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
You keep missing the point. Indian reservations are inside the USA. As such, they are a unique case.
Serious question. It is 1885 and an Indian family living on the reservation travels off the reservation for whatever business. The wife goes into early labor and has a child.
Was the child considered a citizen at the time?
I am not a lawyer, but I remember from my Business Law classes in University a general principle that "he who comes to the court seeking equitable relief must do so with clean hands." Does the relief sought by the plaintiff states, and granted by the 9th Circuit in this case, qualify as "equitable relief"? Is the class of illegal immigrants therefore required to "have clean hands"? And does their deliberate illegal entry, or deliberate overstaying of their visa, or deliberate failure to report for their immigration court date on their asylum claim(s) have an impact on their "clean hands" requirement?
I am a layman, not an attorney. These are honest questions, not political posturing, and not working backward from my desired political outcome.
As detailed in exchanges above, this case isn't about equity that is common in business law. It's about the law, the meaning of the 14A's citizenship clause. As such, "clean hands" plays no part.
In addition to Josh's point, the states , not the immigrants, are the plaintiffs here. And with respect to individual plaintiffs, the kids do have clean hands.