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Court Strikes Down Tennessee Law Banning "Recruit[ing]" Pregnant Minors to Get Abortions, Including Legal Out-of-State Abortions
From Sixth Circuit Judge Julia Gibbons, sitting by designation on M.D. Tenn., in today's Welty v. Dunaway:
[A Tennessee law, § 39-15-201,] makes it a crime to "intentionally recruit[ ] … a pregnant unemancipated minor" in Tennessee "for the purpose of" obtaining an abortion that would be illegal in Tennessee. But § 39-15-201 does not merely bar recruitment of minors to facilitate illegal abortions in Tennessee; it bars recruitment of minors to facilitate abortions "regardless" of where the procedure occurs. In other words, the law prohibits recruiting an out-of-state abortion that is entirely legal in that state, so long as it would be illegal in Tennessee….
Section 39-15-201 contains a few exceptions, including one for "the provision of a medical diagnosis or consultation regarding pregnancy care of an unemancipated minor," as long as that consultation does not involve an actual attempt to terminate the pregnancy or arranging for travel to do so. The statute also exempts four classes of individuals: a pregnant minor's parent or legal guardian; a person who has obtained consent from such parent or guardian; common carriers transporting passengers in the ordinary course of business; and emergency medical personnel acting within the course of their duties. The statute contains no exception, however, for family members besides parents or guardians—an unemancipated minor's aunt or uncle, adult sibling, or grandparent could be prosecuted for "recruiting" the minor to procure an abortion….
The court concluded that "recruiting" including persuasion:
The ordinary meaning of "recruit," while broad, is sufficiently clear "to give ordinary people fair notice of the criminalized conduct." Certain speech is almost certainty prohibited recruitment under the provision: for example, a pregnant minor's 20-year-old sister, hoping to persuade her younger sister to obtain an abortion, says, "if I were in your shoes, I would get an abortion" and then tells her where to obtain an out-of-state abortion.
And, given this, the court concluded that the prohibition was unconstitutional:
Section 39-15-201 prohibits speech encouraging lawful abortion while allowing speech discouraging lawful abortion. That is impermissible viewpoint discrimination, which the First Amendment rarely tolerates—and does not tolerate here….
Defendants do not contest that the recruitment provision is a content- or viewpoint-based restriction. In fact, in some parts of their brief, they appear to concede the very point. They argue instead that this is permissible because "much of the speech covered by the Act is unquestionably incident to criminal conduct." But plaintiffs' intended speech seeks only to recruit minors for purposes of obtaining a legal abortion. Thus, plaintiffs' speech cannot be speech integral to crime. And, for the reasons discussed, it is protected speech. The recruitment provision therefore regulates plaintiffs' speech because of its message—"that abortion is safe, common and normal" and available in certain states—and is presumptively unconstitutional. And defendants fail to show—indeed, they do not even argue—that the law survives strict scrutiny….
The statutory language and the legislative record confirm that the recruitment provision is directed at recruitment of lawful abortions. The recruitment provision criminalizes speech encouraging or persuading minors to obtain abortions "regardless" of where they occur, so long as they are illegal in Tennessee. The statute's fiscal note also shows that the recruitment provision was chiefly aimed at speech inducing minors to obtain legal, out-of-state abortions. It contemplates future prosecutions only in relation to abortions in states "where abortion is legal in some capacity." The law's sponsor, when asked about the recruitment provision, suggested it would apply to Planned Parenthood's recent conduct "recruiting children … across state lines" and to Behn's tweet, offering to transport minors "out of state." …
[T]he defendants argue that the recruitment provision validly applies to "speech intended to induce or facilitate the 'harboring' or 'transporting' of a minor within this State for the purpose of obtaining an elective abortion without parental consent." Speech incident to an act of harboring or transporting a Tennessee minor to obtain an illegal abortion would be unprotected. See U.S. v. Hansen. But such speech is rare compared with speech incident to an act of harboring or transporting a Tennessee minor to obtain a legal abortion. And the latter is protected speech—the recruitment provision cannot constitutionally proscribe it….
In September, Judge Aleta Trauger had issued a preliminary injunction blocking enforcement of the law, and that is now on appeal to the Sixth Circuit.
Daniel A. Horwitz, Melissa Kathleen Dix, and Sarah L. Martin (Horwitz Law, PLLC) represent plaintiffs.
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Imagine this country without Roe. There would be 60 million more Democrats of voting age, with 20 million being DEIs. Imagine the consequences. I admit, the Supreme Court has not always been wrong.
Democrats open the borders to replace an uncooperative electorate. They don't have children.
Shaddup you crinkly old crone!
"There would be 60 million more Democrats of voting age, with 20 million being DEIs."
How is giving birth rather than aborting "DEI" activity?
And the 60 million figure is specious. According to a National Right to Life press release dated February 19, 2024, that organization estimated that 65,464,760 abortions had then been performed in the United States since 1973. https://nrlc.org/communications/nrl-releases-eleventh-annual-report-the-state-of-abortion-in-the-us/ Apart from Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), abortion would have remained legal in several states, including populous states like California and New York. In other states, who knows how many women would have obtained illegal abortions?
Even if the 65 million pregnancies had all been carried to term, probably tens of millions of the offspring would not yet be of voting age.
Just an aside from the main issue. 65 million lives aborted. Doesn’t that give you a moments pause in your abortion zeal?
Whether a woman does or does not have an abortion is none of my business unless and until someone who is facing or contemplating a pregnancy asks for my opinion.
And it is damn sure none of the government's business prior to viability. Why should such paragons of virtue as Andrew Cuomo, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Elliot Spitzer have any say in the matter?
65 million lives snuffed out and your response is, meh, none of my business really. Anyone wondering how so many massacres and genocides have occurred throughout history with no apparent strong public outcry, wonder no more.
Yeah, but I mean some of those abortions were obtained by illegal immigrants, so it got prevented some of those non-white birthright citizens you hate so much from being born and saved you the trouble of rounding them up and sending them somewhere to be killed.
Precanned response. Works as a deflection from almost anything.
'Oh, you don't like my crab dip, well WHAT ABOUT THE 65 MILLION BABIES!'
Lazy botting.
It wonders why people think it’s a bot.
Riva bot acting like compassion is his strong suit is hilarious.
An IUD will prevent a fertilized ovum from implanting in the uterine wall and continuing to go on developing as an embryo to maturity, eventuating if all goes to plan as a fully developed baby after 40 weeks. As you see it, a fertilized ovum that is prevented from implanting is another "life snuffed out," and those who don't are likely to be unaffected by "massacres and genocides"?
I thought it primarily worked by preventing fertilization.
Depends on which kind of IUD you get. Some prevent fertilization, others prevent implantation. Neither do anything for STDs. Both work by triggering the body's immune response - meaning you are in a perpetual state of low-grade bio-chemical stress.
Riva bot not programmed to respond to substantive replies.
Imagine if Behar were sane. He might be rational enough in that hypothetical to figure out why that claim is obviously false.
If you have the abortion, you’ll never see combat and we’ll give you lots of money for college.
So, if there's one state in the country where a minor can get an elective abortion without parental consent, it's legal to encourage them to do so, and facilitate their travel there for that purpose?
Hm, states have different age of consent laws, does the same reasoning apply? I get the impression not, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
trafficking girls across state lines for immoral purposes is a Federal crime. if you want to prohibit interstate commerce (in sex, drugs or abortion, whatever the case may be) you need a Federal law.
Funny how you don't see murder as immoral.
You know, Brett, I'm old enough to remember when there was only one state where casino gambling was legal.
Would it have been OK for other states to bar Las Vegas casinos from "recruiting" potential gamblers to go there? Looks pretty unconstitutional to me. What do your libertarian instincts tell you?
Eliding the minors part, are we?
You think age matters for the most sacred leftist sacrament?
Another every accusation is a confession (anti-abortionist that religion is the driving force behind their movement but some aren’t comfortable with this and desperately try this rhetorical weak sauce judo move predictably).
It's a Rush Limbaugh-ism. Tired old proto-MAGA hating the libs.
Doesn't play today, but some folks never progressed past the Obama era.
Obama? They’re in the Bill Clinton era
Democrats stole the election. Turns out it was MAGA.
Democrats are the pedophiles. Well, wouldn't you know...
Democrats love abortion (yes we do). So let's see what happens.
It’s actually an example the other way. Gambling advertising used to be prohibited in many states, including advertising for Los Vegas casinos. Completely constitutional.
Were the laws ever challenged? Was a precedent set?
> In other words, the law prohibits recruiting an out-of-state abortion that is entirely legal in that state, so long as it would be illegal in Tennessee….
aside from the obvious 1A and vagueness concerns ("recruiting" is broad and poorly defined), I'm also curious what jurisdiction the state of Tennessee has to regulate this speech. a billboard would obviously qualify, since it's within the borders of the state, as would speech by anyone within the state. but what about Discord servers or websites? could Tennessee go after a Colorado resident DMing a link to a abortion clinic in Colorado on Twitter? or a radio station, transmitting from New York but receivable within Tennessee, advertising abortion services? how much can states regulate what outsiders say to their residents?
Police powers to protect unemancipated minors.
Same power to prohibit giving them beer.
if one state had a drinking age of 18 and advertised to 18-yos in a neighboring state I'm not sure that would be illegal.
18 is adult -- not a minor.
There are no states that completely ban alcohol any more. But those that did after national prohibition repeal could ban all liquor advertising.
Alcohol however may not be the best example because states were given special constitutional powers to regulate alcohol not applicable to other matters.
Conspiracy to commit murder, that might be a viable basis regardless of the lies you Leftists tell yourselves.
Uh, a lawful abortion and a murder are mutually exclusive. Like red and green or a circle and a rectangle, one cannot be the other.
The court may call a definition of "recruit," in the context of this statute, that encompasses "the targeted inducement of a minor for a specific purpose - obtaining an elective abortion without her parent's or guardian's consent" as narrow. It is more properly described as reasonable. To construe "recruit" as "encouragement, persuasion, and put[ting] out the word' that an option is available" is strained and unreasonable. But not to a judge grasping at some way to support the cause of abortion.
Riva bot not programmed to access Cambridge dictionary.
If you have access to a dictionary, I suggest you look up the definitions of “context” and “reasonable.” And don’t forget “jackass” and “clown” and “troll” as well.
Programmed to insult but not to access dictionary sites (maybe the have CAPTCHA?).
The court seemed to eagerly breach the Constitutional-Doubt Canon and perhaps the Last Resort Rule by interpreting the statute so broadly.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/article-3/section-2/clause-1/overview-of-constitutional-avoidance-doctrine
We know what a big fan of constitutional avoidance Mikie P is from his deep throated defense of Roberts’ opinion in the Obamacare case!
And I thought whataboutism was bad. I guess it is really just situational.
The one place whataboutism is useful is identifying personal hypocrisy.
Well, as for “personal,” you’ve certainly got the infantile homophobic insults down pat. Not so much with what we adults would call a substantive response actually demonstrating any hypocrisy. But being limited to mimicking a Colbert monologue, you’re frankly just not capable of that.
When is a bot an “adult?” Riva bot not programmed to ponder such questions.
So, not really sure but is that a retraction of your sick homophobic insult because it doesn't read that way? Also doesn't resemble a substantive response. In fact, it's just more parroting of the same contemptible insults. Parroting because you even lack the wit to compose an original contemptible insult. Rather pathetic. Not much competition here at all.
Riva bot severely malfunctioning more than usual.
No, Riva and Michael P, federal courts lack authority and power to give a limiting, narrowing construction to a state statute to create constitutionality. Smith v. Goguen, 415 U.S. 566, 575 (1974). For an extensive discussion of this principle in the abortion rights context, see Eubanks v. Wilkinson, 937 F.2d 1118, 1120-1127 (6th Cir. 1991).
Is that as true as, say, your comments on Trump being disqualified from the Colorado ballot?
A pre-enforcement challenge is fundamentally different from a post-conviction appeal. If the federal court here did not want to clarify the constitutional scope of state power, it should have certified the question of the statute's scope for state courts to define.
Trump was in fact disqualified from the Colorado ballot -- until he wasn't. Both of those statements are factual -- that is, the truth or falsity thereof is capable of objective determination. I never claimed after SCOTUS decided Trump v. Anderson, 601 U.S. 100 (2024), that Trump disqualified from the Colorado ballot. Whether he should or should not have been is and was a matter of opinion, both before and after the courts ruled.
It is also a fact of jurisprudence that, while federal courts can give a narrowing or limiting construction to federal statutes in order to save the constitutionality thereof, they lack such authority and power to give a limiting, narrowing construction to a state statute in order to create constitutionality. That principle of federalism is well-settled. If you doubt that, just read Judge Merritt's thorough opinion in Eubanks v. Wilkinson, 937 F.2d 1118, 1120-1127 (6th Cir. 1991), and the authorities cite therein.
When I make a statement about a legal topic, I ordinarily support it with relevant supporting authority.
Not at all correct NG. Federal courts do not lack the power to give a reasonable definition to statutory terms. Quite the opposite in fact. But I forget, never argue law with a layman.
When and where did you receive your legal training, if any, Riva?
You do realize that personal attacks on me don't make your incorrect assertions correct, don't you? Apparently not, none of the trolls swarming here seem to.
Asking about your legal training, or lack thereof, after you have expressed an incorrect legal position is not a personal attack, Riva. The question is relevant to how much weight a reader should give to your unqualified pronouncements.
It is a fair question for any commenter here, but especially for a dilettante who dabbles in legal matters without training or qualification to support his/her unfounded positions.
No it’s a stupid question meant to distract from your error. My personal background has nothing to do with your palpably wrong opinion. I guess you never studied logic either.
Apparently “strong overbreadth” isn’t dead yet.
I had thought the days when people challenging an obscenity law could, with a straight face, claim that the law is unconstitutional because “oral intercourse” might be interetable as referring to oordinary conversation were over.
But the 6th Circuit panel in this case appears to have done something very similar. They have made themselves as deliberately oblivious to the fact there there is a long history of terms of art in criminal solicitation laws, including laws long upheld as constitutional, as a judge would have to be to buy the obcenity law challenge. If this were a law against, say, recruiting minors into prostitution, nobody would have objected to the language.
Imagine the State of Franklin makes it legal for anyone between 14–18 years old to make pornography. The State of Jefferson has a law that says it’s illegal within its borders to recruit minors to make pornography. Under this ruling, Jefferson’s law is unconstitutional. But most people would recognize how absurd that is. This ruling is nothing but another abortion distortion.
Come on, the pornographers were just putting out the word that a pornography option was available.
How about if I tell my traveling salesman buddy who lives in a state with a strict gun safe storage law “if you take your gun to state X that’s not a law there and you don’t have to store it that way at all, the minute you cross the state line I’d take that gun out of that storage.” Can our state make that illegal?
The better analogy is State X allows children, say, 12 and up to join its National Guard. But State Y is committed to stopping people from becoming child soldiers, so it passes a law that says people can't recruit, within its borders, people under 18 to join military units.
Same would be true if a state wanted to stop, within its borders, people from recruiting child drug sellers, child prostitutes, etc., in states where such activity is legal for children. Normal people can see why it would be okay for a state to stop such activities within its borders even if some other state didn't care about the welfare of children within its. But people with a religious devotion to abortion access aren't normal people, so here we are.
Or how about this. Republican states have moved to expand the conditions under which minors can work. If I were in a neighboring state that had stricter conditions and my 17 year old cousin wanted a job under expanded conditions could my state make it illegal to tell them they could and should get one over the border?
Also your “religious devotion” comment is such a nice example of weak sauce judo and every accusation is a confession!
Yes, I would say a restriction on recruiting child laborers within a state’s own borders is a perfectly legitimate use of its police powers.
And, sorry, access to abortion is absolutely a religious devotion of many on the left, including many federal judges.
So you concede the court’s definition of recruiting is correct and yet you’d outlaw the speech in the example I gave?
And your equation is simple every confession territory, the left cares about abortion rights similarly to how the right cares about gun rights, people passionately supporting rights is not religious.
I know you're trying to communicate something in that error ridden embarrassment attempting to be a sentence, just not sure what.
Maybe if you got your GED degree (you could study-time with Mr. Bumble?) you could understand what he was trying to say.
I know you're a kind of macro but if you were a real person ... the GED is what I'd advise.
In the meantime, wow, you are just a nasty human being. Lordy Lordy.
I’m a “nasty human being”? I am subjected to a trollnado of vile despicable insults labeling me as an “it” simply because insecure leftists feel threatened (or are paid like rent a mobs) but lack the wit to write a substantive response. Just like you. So no, I’n not giving parrot trolls incapable of writing a coherent sentence a pass.
Riva bot is identified as a bot exactly because it doesn’t recognize and respond to substantive retorts but just repeats its programmed comments, as it does here!
And right on cue....
Indeed! You see, it lacks all self-awareness.
Riva is definitely nasty. Whether Riva is or is not a human being is up for debate, BrotherMovesOn. I wouldn't presume facts not in evidence.
I think you demonstrated the quality of your humanity with your casual indifference to the loss of 65 million lives lost to abortion. A profound moral disgrace.
It’s just programmed to produce this, not respond.
Riva, I am not casually indifferent to lives lost to abortion. I do have a strong opinion that the government should not involve itself in an individual female's abortion decision prior to fetal viability. Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), and Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, 597 U.S. 215 (2022), are equally horrid decisions.
Since you have speculated falsely about my opinion of abortion, I will correct you. I regard abortion as morally wrong in the absence of extraordinary circumstances such as rape, incest, a serious threat to maternal health or a fetal abnormality inconsistent with meaningful life. But I don't want legislatures deciding what a woman should or should not do (prior to viability) regarding carrying her pregnancy to term. I would be just as opposed to the legislature mandating that a woman abort her embryo/fetus. Either course of governmental action is as offensive as the People's Republic of China formerly mandating that a couple can have only one child.
I did not speculate on anything. I asked you if the reality of 65 million lives gave you any pause regarding your zealous support of abortion. You were indifferent to the massive loss of life and you still are. Now you simply latch on to Cuomo's sickening morally relativistic “I’m personally opposed to abortion, but support a woman’s right to choose." But as noted, are indifferent to the result. 65 million lives lost.
And, I find your newfound moral objection to abortion less than credible. Why exactly, if you reject the value of unborn life, do you regard abortion as morally wrong? If you really had moral objections, you'd be sickened by the loss of 65 million lives.
You're latching onto the unthinking 'every embryo is sacred' bullshit.
We don't believe this. No society has ever believed it. We don't medically move heaven and earth to prevent miscarriages or failures to implant.
So this question begging, a fallacy to begin with, isn't even internally consistent. That's why you can meet not guilty's thoughtful nuanced and fact-based discussion with shallow high dugeon.
I will again point out that you stand out in your enthusiasm for not engaging with the comment, and just giving a precanned response based on some impression you got from a very quick scan.
Until you get less lazy, no one else will take the bot crown from you.
No society anywhere? Ever heard of the prohibition on abortion in the Hippocratic oath, dating back oh to fourth or fifth century BC. And abortion has been unequivocally condemned as inherently evil since the Church existed to opine on such matters. And that life begins at conception is rather scientifically undeniable, although one can dispute when such life becomes viable in the course of a pregnancy.
Lazy, stupid and still a parrot troll. Worth noting again, I know you're an ass, but do you have to be such a stupid ass?
Again, you didn't engage with my comment after you read the third sentence, you just started writing.
Read the very next sentence and you will see you once again went off with an irrelevant talking point.
I read to the bottom of your comment to see your tepid insults. You should get in the habit of doing the same.
I responded to your comment and pointed out your errors. You simply didn't like being corrected. You, on the other hand, are incapable of providing a substantive response, and pointedly fail to make one. So, oh, how did someone put it, "you just started writing." Here's the thing you obnoxious clod, if you want to engage in real debate, you don't get to ask and answer your own questions. Not how that works you pathetic troll clown.
And tepid insults? You engage in more of your sick contemptible insults and you get an insult back. I thought you'd be appreciative. At least I put some effort into it instead of parroting more of the same vile dehumanizing crap you seem to enjoy,
You lie once more, Riva. You claim to know what I am thinking; in fact, you know nothing of the sort.
You speculated that I am "casual[ly] indifferen[t] to the loss of 65 million lives lost to abortion." That is a falsehood -- I am not. I think that every abortion is sad, just as sad circumstances may lead to a woman's abortion decision. I doubt (although I don't claim to know) that you have a bit of empathy for the woman faced with difficult circumstances.
Contrary to what you claim, I do not "zealously support ... abortion." I do zealously support abortion rights.
My moral objection to abortion is not newfound; I have held that opinion since my teens. Decades ago, I opposed abortion being legal. After multiple assassinations of physicians and clinic personnel by anti-abortion fanatics, however, I changed my opinion. I want no part of Eric Rudolph's side of the culture war.
Your cavilling doesn't spook the pixels that you wrote above off of the monitor.
You are indifferent. That's inherent in your newfound morally relativistic views. You reject that there is anything inherently, objectively immoral about an abortion. Again, why exactly, if you reject the value of unborn life, do you regard abortion as morally wrong?
Neither my views on the morality of abortion nor those on the inappropriateness of government prohibiting previability abortion are newfound, Riva. I formed the opinion about fifty years ago that abortion is morally wrong in the absence of extraordinary circumstances. I became a supporter of abortion rights vis-a-vis the government maybe fifteen years later.
I do not "reject the value of unborn life." I recognize that an abortion by its nature extinguishes a nascent human life. There are some circumstances, however, where a balancing of harms makes abortion a less traumatic option than carrying a pregnancy to term.
Again, these are merely my opinions, which I have no right to impose on anyone facing or contemplating a pregnancy. I keep my views on the morality of abortion to myself unless and until I am asked or, like here, when someone falsely attributes to me views that in fact I do not hold.
You simply keep expressing your indifference in slightly modified terms. First with your Cuomo-esque subjective moral relativism and now with a related utilitarian approach to abortion and your “nascent human life”. What does that even mean? Sounds rather like you really mean “potential” human life. Shades of planned parenthood v Casey. “But ‘reasoned judgment’ does not begin by begging the question, as Roe and subsequent cases unquestionably did by assuming that what the State is protecting is the mere ‘potentiality of human life.’ “
The 65 million lives may have been unborn but they were not “nascent” or “potential” human lives. Those were human lives. You have balanced your way into moral indifference. What other mass atrocities would your utilitarian balancing test justify? The possibilities are endless as history shows. I’m sure Stalin and his communist enforcers used some balancing when they murdered millions. Chinese communists as well, even with the reprehensible one child policy you claim to oppose. I guess that’s just the price of balancing human life.
Are IUD's murder devices, Riva?
You need to do a more thoughtful job of where you're drawing your line when you deflect to moral opprobrium.
No, and more specifically IUDs are a different topic. We’re not talking about contraceptives. We’re talking about abortion. There are of course moral concerns with contraception but the far greater evil is abortion and products that act as abortifacients, like Plan B and RU-486. Of course to the extent the evidence suggests that an IUD acts as an abortifacient, its use should be condemned.
To be clear, I’m not really trying to persuade you. You’ll simply make another obnoxious trollish response. I don’t want anyone else to be influenced by your garbage views.
We’re not talking about contraceptives. We’re talking about abortion.
Check out the mechanism by which IUD's function, chief.
Your 'it's a human life!!!' mantra has a big IUD-shaped flaw.
What? Or maybe as someone once put it "Again, you didn't engage with my comment after you read the [first] sentence, you just started writing."
And if something in that word mass refutes the scientific, biological reality that life begins at conception, you'll have to point it out to me.
And, Sarcastr0, not only does this response fail to refute the reality that life begins at conception, the style is quite different from your other posts in this thread. Either you're schizophrenic or there is more than one troll using this alias. Because the style does resemble other parrot trolls here. I suspect the latter goes on a lot with all the garbage posted in these comment sections.
You can accept that a zygote, embryo or fetus has value without accepting it as a person. So it could be one finds abortion morally wrong but preferrable to taking away the liberty of a person to control her own body.
There could be two lines drawn based on how far the pregnancy has advanced: 1) the point where an abortion becomes immoral but legal because the woman's liberty is paramount, and 2) the point when it should be made illegal because the woman's liberty is no longer paramount.
Point taken NG.
let's say Franklin legalizes Ayahuasca retreats for drug rehab, but it's illegal in Jefferson. can Jefferson make it illegal to target ads at Franklin residents?
Yes, I believe so for the same reason it can stop advertising of any activities that are illegal within its borders. (Hell, even legal activities (e.g., tobacco smoking) can be made illegal.) But it’s especially so if it’s to stop recruitment of children to do them.
But "you can go to this other state and do X legally" is a truthful statement.
So what if the other state doesn't like it?
Encouraging 16 year olds to go over state lines to states with lower age of consent, bad though.
The difference? It's about psychological damage. No, that can't be it. It's about physical damage, no, that can't be it. Suing lawyers? Ahhhhhhhhhhh...
So, according to those who think this decision is wrong, a state where gambling is illegal could bar Las Vegas casinos from advertising in the state?
Doesn't seem right to me.
and none of them, on this law blog, even bother to justify the legality of this rule. all they have are their moral/religious beliefs. they'd make better pastors than lawyers.
What provision of the constitution would bar such a prohibition? I don't think any states have taken that step, but if one chose to do so, I don't see any right for NV to be able to advertise an activity in a state that believes such activity is harmful to its citizens and illegal in the target state.
I think it would be your 1A right to say "Gambling is legal in Nevada." I don't think the next step..which is "bring your money from your state and gamble it in Nevada, and then return to your home state poorer" is a solicitation that a state has to permit.
If NV legalized contract murder would all 49 other states be bound to allow solicitations to have your cheating wife killed--only in Nevada?
See Bigelow v. Virginia, 421 U.S. 809 (1975)
I think it would be your 1A right to say "Gambling is legal in Nevada." I don't think the next step..which is "bring your money from your state and gamble it in Nevada, and then return to your home state poorer" is a solicitation that a state has to permit.
So Caesar's Palace runs and ad that says:
"Come visit Caesar's Palace. Enjoy great restaurants, fabulous entertainment, top-class shopping, etc. without even leaving the hotel.
You don't have to gamble to have fun, though it is legal in Nevada."
And suppose Caesar's runs an ad in a national magazine. Can a state bar distribution of the magazine in the state because of the ad?
At Malika's suggestion, I looked up Bigelow v. Virginia. Suggest you do the same.
First, Bigelow is just an example of the "abortion is special" jurisprudence. Notice the dissent by Rehnquist and White. This 50 year old cases has no continuing vitality.
Second, as to your example, this is what we have judges for. Usually I am talking about what judges should NOT do. Here is an example of what judges should do. In your hypo, is Caesars simply exercising its 1A right to give passive information or is it soliciting residents of states to do some act which is contrary to the state's public policy?
If I were a judge, I would rule that it is a solicitation and not simply informational. I can see how others might responsibly disagree with me. THAT is why we have courts and those are the hard questions.
I agree that a magazine ad for a casino, showing attractive people laughing around a roulette wheel, say, is a solicitation.
I question whether a state has the right to bar distribution of a magazine containing such an ad.
Unless there is something different about advertising speech, I don't think a state can ban an ad from Vegas showing people laughing around a roulette table even if that state bans gambling and the ad solicits gambling in Vegas.
The speech integral to a crime exception to the 1A requires a separate statute for which the speech solicits violating. What is that statute? It can't be the prohibition of gambling in the state because the ad solicits gambling in Vegas, not the state.
The formation of the intent to gamble occurs in the subject state. It cannot forbid that? Can it not forbid a murder, with the intent formed in the subject state but the killing occurring out of state? I think you would strike down 50/50 state laws if you accept that proposition. Why would gambling be different? Or contract murder, or child rape?
If contract murder or child rape were legal in Vegas, and federal law permitted it, then a state cannot bar an ad that says come to Vegas to murder and rape.
What if I am taking the wife on a Vegas vacation and my plan is to murder her there once we arrive? Can my home state not punish me on my return because I formed part of the murderous act in the home state? You simply declare that it cannot without any support.
If "forming part of your plan" is speech, the home state cannot punish you. If it's conduct, I would have to see what the statute said and what conduct was involved.
Is it, as alluded to below, that the state must simply pass a secondary law making an intent to gamble illegal? Then we would be in the territory of criminal solicitation?
Or is the secondary law unconstitutional? Do I have a constitutional right to go to another state and take advantage of relaxed laws, whatever their subject? Again, contract murder and child rape? One state and it is free game and a rush to the border?
What right does a state have to even have a "public policy" about what people do in other states?
Why wouldn't they? Don't the same reasons to forbid gambling apply whether one does it in state or out of state? You don't want a guy spending his paycheck on blackjack; instead you want him supporting his family. Why would that thought change because the guy drives across the state line to gamble?
If you want to say that the state cannot control what goes on outside of its borders, I agree, but it can (and does in other contexts like murder) control the intent, the thought process of the beginning of the crime when it occurs in state.
I would think Nevada politicians would be a little more careful than to proudly allow contract killings there.
Did you miss the part about the statute being limited to minors?
Seems to me the statute being limited to minors does not change the conclusion it does not ban speech integral to criminal conduct, and thus strict scrutiny is triggered.
It's speech directed to minors about doing something that might hurt them. And for which they need parental input.
It's illegal to give a child OTC medicine (e.g,, an asprin) without parental consent. Not because taking asprin is criminal, but because children lack the maturity to decide for themselves, and the decision is generally left with the parent or guardian.
What happens if it is legal to give a child OTC medicine without parental consent in one state, but not another? Can the latter state ban speech which encourages travel to the former state for that purpose? I don't think so because it isn't speech integral to unlawful conduct. The fact minors are involved doesn't make any difference to the analysis.
Disagree. The state has a compelling interest in protecting children and preventing interference with parental oversight. That it's legal in the other state is neither here nor there.
That's you writing new law.
Which would be fine, but you've conflated 'is' with 'ought' here.
If these laws become popular, the matter might be pressed.
As with Mahmoud, SCOTUS might be (selectively) concerned about parental rights.
That just means you think the law survives strict scrutiny. I doubt it, but TN argued rational-basis review applied because the law proscribed speech integral to criminal conduct. That part of the analysis does not depend on whether minors are involved.
It is? Since when? Some states may restrict schools from doing so, but I am aware of no state that says that a child generally needs parental consent to take OTC medicine.
Well, this thread is a pretty clear demonstration of the left's absolute determination to treat minors like adults any time sex is involved.
Not generally for other topics, of course, but for sex, sure.
This case was about the free speech rights of adults to speak to minors about things that are legal in other states.
To counsel minors on how to circumvent parental rights. It's about violating parental rights, in the end. The left is on a tear to abolish parental rights, but chiefly where there is sex involved.
Don’t hurt your back moving those goalposts!
Also, abortions are not sex, they’re a medical procedure. There has been some recent hullabaloo about overriding parents rights to have their children undergo medical procedures recently in other areas , but not from the left…
Oh hey Brett found an unenumerated right he likes. Never mind that it's deployed as a regulation, he calls it a right so I'm sure that's what it is.
I note he skipped his no double lengthy originalist analysis.
Otherwise he'd just be a normal right-wing culture war authoritarian pretending to be a libertarian for his own self-image...
Dufus, I've always supported unenumerated rights. The problem is that the left wants the courts to have the power to invent them, without bothering to prove they were accepted at the time of the founding.
If you can't tell the difference between sex and abortion, you're doing one of the two of those wrong.
Here’s another example. Iirc NJ a minor cannot possess a shotgun unless (among a couple other exceptions) they are under supervision of their parent/guardian or at an approved shooting range, in PA the law is looser, allowing any adult supervision. Could NJ criminalize my telling my 17 year old nephew about and going with them to participate in a turkey shoot (not at an approved range) across the border in PA?
This seems wrong on so many levels. Tennessee is regulating conduct within it's own borders.
It's not illegal to tell a minor that she can get an abortion in Ohio. But if one encourages the minor to leave TN to get an abortion against TN public policy in Ohio, that can be criminally punished.
That's straight up police power regulation and conforms with history and tradition. It also has an effect on the unborn child, present in TN, that can be harmed by the solicitation of the other party.
Some judges want to act like Dobbs didn't happen. Other posters have the analogy right. It would be as if one state in the country legalized child rape. And that meant that in every other state it would be a constitutional right for pedophiles to open charter services for people to transport children to that state.
Dobbs did not turn abortion into the equivalent of child rape. That's an insane overread.
"encourages the minor to leave TN"
The word "encourage" is rather broad. The term "recruit" sounds like it has a narrower and more direct character.
A minister can tell a minor, "God tells us that we have to examine our conscience in these situations and do what it tells us is right."
That might be alleged to be "encouraging" a minor to have an abortion, especially if the faith allows abortion in certain contexts.
The word "recruitment," on the other hand, is more direct and active in bringing about a particular goal.
Those terms seem to gel with garden variety criminal solicitation laws. If you take the opposite tack of what judges do (assume laws are constitutional) you can posit hypotheticals where they are unconstitutional.
Are all criminal solicitation laws unconstitutional? If not, why can't Tennessee say that if you encourage someone to take an unborn child out of our state to murder them, you have committed a crime?
You can disagree with mine and TN's characterization, sure. But why do they not have the power to do that?
Criminal solicitation does not violate the 1A because it is speech integral to criminal conduct. However, the criminal conduct must be separate from the speech. You can't define the speech as being criminal. In this case if the other state permits minors to have abortions without parental consent, there is no separate crime.
You don't think if I take my wife from WV to PA and mopery her that I am not violating WV law because I am doing out of state stuff?
Forget that it is also illegal or legal, whichever, to mopery her in PA. Why does that matter? WV can regulate my conduct in WV as it relates to moping the wife.
On second thought, I see more of your point. Would it be better if the state criminalized abortion like they do murder laws? If they punished a woman for fomenting a thought to kill her unborn child and THEN criminalized a solicitation to avert the law by going to another state?
Don't fight the hypo. Pretend the state also passed a law saying that any unborn child conceived in the state was protected by law. Still the same, or no?
Would that satisfy your test?
In your hypo, we don't have to deal with speech at all. By going to another state to have an abortion (forget about fomenting), the woman is averting WV law. Somin previously weighed in on that question.
A prostitute "solicits." It has some connotations of criminal incitement. The word "encourage" is more open-ended. It has more of possibility of overlapping protected speech.
If they punished a woman for fomenting a thought to kill her unborn child and THEN criminalized a solicitation to avert the law by going to another state?
Fomenting a thought? That's a strange phrasing.
A state cannot stop someone from going to another state to do something that might be illegal in the home state.
A few states now allow physician-assisted suicide. Other states do not. They protect life by the law, here people already born. They can't protect that life by blocking the person from going to another state to end their life.
Solicitation to travel to other states to use euthanasia would be protected speech. At the very least for consenting adults.
"At the very least for consenting adults."
And there we get back to the key point: This law has to do with unemancipated minors. I think there's no question that it would be unconstitutional in regards to adults.
But in regards to unemancipated minors, it may be constitutional.
No, it's regulating speech within its own borders.
I think you should shoot your wife in the head. Is that last sentence speech or conduct?
It matters if I am saying it generally or directly. If she just cheated on you and I had 8 beers and said that sentence, it would probably be protected speech. If I was handing you a gun as you were walking into her bedroom it would be criminal solicitation.
I think the hypo in the article, although clearly not exactly, it is far more like the last one than the first and can be punished if a state chooses to punish it.
It is speech about noncriminal conduct.
The state may be unhappy it's noncriminal conduct, but they don't have control over that, and that doesn't allow them to regulate the speech.
If Tennessee made it illegal for a minor to have an abortion in Tennessee or to leave the state for an abortion does that change the analysis? That would make it speech about criminal conduct instead of noncriminal conduct.
I'm not sure about the constitutionality of making it criminal to leave the state to have an abortion where it is legal, but if such a law passes muser that would change the analysis, seems to me.
See my post above. Such a law is likely unconstitutional. But yes, if it were constitutional, then we would have criminal solicitation.
Bottom line: the speech part of this case is not the crux. Instead, it's whether there is a constitutionally valid WV law that the speech is integral to.
The term "recruit" is a curious one. The opinion references that several definitions use it in a military sense.
Someone can also be "recruited" for a team or a political campaign. I find the usage in this context somewhat less logical, though, as noted in the opinion, not completely.
(The opinion, to be clear, does not strike it down for vagueness.)
Note that the opinion explains that it is not a crime in Tennessee to self-abort. It is not a crime to take an abortion drug.
One thing that I am not clear about is a possible parental rights argument. We are talking unemancipated minors.
Could the law be defended as a means of protecting a parent's right to control the health choices of their children? Could the state ban the "recruitment" of unemancipated children without parental notification and/or consent?
The law might still be challenged as content-based (only abortions), but how about a general law against "recruitment" of medical procedures?
In Bigelow v. Virginia, 421 U.S. 809 (1975), "an advertisement carried in appellant's newspaper led to his conviction for a violation of a Virginia statute that made it a misdemeanor, by the sale or circulation of any publication, to encourage or prompt the procuring of an abortion."
It provided information on obtaining abortions in New York. This was pre-Roe v. Wade, when New York was one of the few places that had an open-ended right to choose an abortion.
Bigelow will be of some importance in the post-Dobbs world, though it is unclear how the Supreme Court will apply its terms in all respects. The case would have a clear application if someone were "recruiting" adults for an out-of-state abortion. It is a First Amendment opinion, so it holds up after Dobbs.
I think, however, minors raise a separate concern. I'm not speaking as a fan of these types of laws. But, constitutionally, I do question how far this opinion should go.
Note that past cases allowed laws to single out abortion regarding notification/consent. The precedents required some sort of judicial bypass at some point, but that was before Dobbs.
It speaks well of you that you engage thoughtfully in a proposition that leads you to somewhere that might disagree with your personal beliefs. I try to do that, even if it might be imperfect.
1975 pre-Roe? Roe was 1973.
The case involved something that occurred earlier ...
"On February 8, 1971, the Weekly's Vol. V, No. 6, was published and circulated under the direct responsibility" etc.
The case does not turn on the constitutional right to choose an abortion. Its principles hold up after Dobbs.
The weird use of recruit without defining it was TN’s undoing here. Lazy drafting.
The same state that passed the law at issue in Skrmetti might not want to wade too deeply into "a parent's right to control the health choices of their children."
Parental rights over their children's medical care would be balanced with the best interests of the children. The requirement of parental notification/consent can also be couched in best interests of the children terms.
The parents would not be able to harm the child. The state would argue that banning trans care was necessary to protect the child (again, I'm not supporting the conclusion as policy, I'm raising possible arguments).
How many votes on the Supreme Court to allow states to prohibit transport of minor residents to another state, without parental consent, to get an abortion?
I think this court ruled on the recruit/persuade grounds rather than the transport provision. Given Kavanaugh’s Dobbs concurrence the travel issue would be interesting.
If Tennessee can ban transport of a minor out of state for an abortion it can ban some amount of speech on the subject, under the "integral to criminal conduct" and "imminent lawless action" exceptions to the First Amendment. Plaintiffs clearly want to go beyond saying "New York is a great place for an abortion" and "mifepristone is easily available online".
I get maybe plaintiffs want to go beyond that but I read the court as saying the law prohibited the part of the law that falls below that.
So, say a sister says “abortion for persons like you is legal in another state and I’d go there if I were you and if you agree I’ll take you.” It’s the first two that this court thought couldn’t be prohibited.
New York is a great place for abortion and I’d go to New York if I were you =\= I’ll take you to a clinic in NY.
Really? It's illegal in most states to pierce the ears of a minor girls without parental consent. Explain why abortion should be different.
I didn't ask what the rule should be or what a consistent rule would be. There will be three votes on the Supreme Court in favor of abortion. Are there two more in this case?
I think the court erred in granting a universal injunction instead of tailoring the injunction to clearly legal conduct by the plaintiffs and enforcement by the named defendants.
In my state a girl of "tender years" can not be taken away from her parents without their consent, even to take part in fully legal activity. Consent of a young child is not a defense to the crime of kidnapping. The age of consent to run away from home is unclear. It is at least 12 but probably not over 16. (Parents got a restraining order to prevent a boy they disapproved of from having sex with their 16 year old daughter. The appeals court ruled that the order should not have issued because she was over the age of consent.)
I think the 6th Circuit is simply wrong on this point. The legality of crime-facilitating speech is based on the law of where the speech occurs, not where the conduct it facilitates occurs. The United States for example routinely prohibits speech to facilitate extraterritorial conduct that is legal in the country where the conduct occurs. States where activities like gambling and prostitution were illegal routinely prohibited advertising for them.
Indeed, if the opinion’s logic is taken fully, how can it be made a crime to fire a gun that kills someone on the other side of a state border? There is nothing unlawful about merely discharging a gun in many places. Nor has any unlawful conduct occured in the state where the bullet hits.
If a causative action and its effect can be as separated as the 6th Circuit argues, many activities currently considered crimes could be committed completely legally simply by ensuring that multiple activies are required to complete them, any one of these activities is by itself legal, and the activities are structured so as to have the different components done in different states.
What WV law did the conduct the speech facilitated violate? It's not WV's prohibition on abortion because that doesn't apply for abortions outside the state.
Your dividing the conduct between two states may make for an interesting case. But in this case, the conduct is 100% outside of WV.
As the post headline says, the law involved is a Tennessee law. WV has nothing to do with it.
Oops. In responding to wvattorney's hypo about a WV law, I assumed this case was about a WV law. So, just substitute "TN" for "WV" in my post.
See my comment below.
I have a hypothetical for people who claim that Tennesse’s laws “don’t exist” outside Tennessee. The United States currently has laws prohibiting inducing a minor to travel to a foreign country to have sex, even if the minor is over the age of consent in that country.
I understand that theoretically, the United States could send in troops or whatever to arrest people in the foreign country. But suppose the United States signed a treaty saying it would never do that.
Then why would it be constitutional to prohibit inducing a minor to engage in conduct perfectly legal in the jurisdiction where it occurs? It’s soliciting perfectly legal conduct. It’s laws don’t apply in the country involved, right? So how can the crime facilitation speech apply?
Ahh you say. But the United States is a sovereign, and a sovereign’s laws exist in the Platonic realm, outside time and space, applicable anywhere and everywhere in the world. The fact that the United States has signed a treaty saying it won’t enforce its laws somewhere doesn’t make the laws non-existent in that place. So there’s no First Amendment problem with solicting in the United States to travel elsewhere do something legal in that countey by the country’s laws. It remains illegal under US law, and US law controls the United States’ relationship with its citizens notwithstanding what the law of the other country says.
So what makes Tennessee different? Tennessee is also a sovereign, fully sovereign except for powers it signed over. It also, by entering the federal compact, has agreed not to enforce its laws directly outside its own territory. But it never agreed that its laws don’t EXIST outside its territory. As a sovereign, its laws, like the United States’, also exist in the Platonic realm, outside time and space, applicable everywhere and anywhere in the world. And as a sovereign, and just like the United States, the fact that it has agreements not to enforce those laws elsewhere doesn’t interfere with their existence. So Tennessee law equally “applies” eveywhere in the world when its regulation of what happens within its territory is concerned.
Congress has the power to regulate foreign commerce (the statute I think you refer to has a foreign commerce jurisdictional hook). Thus absent a treaty to the contrary, the US can punish those who travel in foreign commerce to have sex with a minor even when the foreign country permits it.
In contrast, it is likely the Constitution forbids a state to punish someone who travels to another state to engage in conduct that was legal in that other state. I don't think there is a Constitutional right to foreign travel.
But states retain authority to regulate interstate commerce affecting them unless Congress preempts those laws. No question Congress could do that. But it hasn’t
And the Supreme Court recently made clear in National Pork Producers that the Negative Commerce Clause is pretty much limited to efforts to favor in-state business over out-of-state business, and at any rate doesn’t apply to morals laws period. And extraterritorial effects are fine unless one of the exceptions applies.
So why doesn’t Tennessee have the same power to regulate what happens within its boarders notwithstanding extraterritorial effects that Congress does with foreign commerce? The Negative Commerce Clause clearly doesn’t apply, and Congress hasn’t preempted state laws on this particular subject.
I suspect that Justice Barrett in particular may had this kind of situation in mind when National Pork Producers was written.
States can often regulate interstate commerce, but my second link argues they cannot prohibit interstate travel while doing so.
I don't think there is a Constitutional right to foreign travel.
I don't think the Supreme Court said that. In fact, in cases from Kent v. Dulles to Zemel v. Rusk, it recognized it as a "liberty."
True, but I don't believe there is precedent that says Congress cannot prevent it in some cases such as to engage in sex with a minor.
Yes, likewise, child porn can be banned, even if "speech" is involved.
The other thing I would add is that the precedents said that even domestic travel can be limited in some respects.
Can you cite those precedents?
I cited Zemel. It notes:
The right to travel within the United States is, of course, also constitutionally protected, cf. Edwards v. California, 314 U. S. 160. But that freedom does not mean that areas ravaged by flood, fire or pestilence cannot be quarantined when it can be demonstrated that unlimited travel to the area would directly and materially interfere with the safety and welfare of the area or the Nation as a whole. So it is with international travel.
It's not too hard to cite various cases where the right to domestic travel is somehow limited. An order of protection, for instance, might limit travel. The freedom of travel of minors, those on bail or parole, or whose freedom of movement is limited to protect themselves and others. Registered sex offenders. Limits during times of war or civic disorder. And so on.
That's quite a leap in going from ravaged areas to minors seeking legal services.
As I read the opinion, it doesn’t not address National Pork Producers at all. It doesn’t address Tennessee’s ability to apply its morality to what happens within its borders notwithstanding extraterritorial effects. The opinion simply assumes that an abortion in another state that is legal in that state is also legal under Tennessee law. No argument let alone authority for or against is given. The proposition is simply assumed without investigation.
Laws apply extraterritorially all the time. To give one of many examples in addition to the California law on how pigs have to be raised anywhere in the world to be sold in California, a contract under Tennessee law is void as against public policy if the underlying conduct violates the public policy of Tennessee, regardless of where that conduct happens or its legality there.
Plaintiff never asserted a right to travel, and would appear not to have standing to assert such a right. She asserted only a right to free speech.
The opinion does not assume a legal abortion in another state is legal in TN. Instead, it concludes there is no violation of TN law when a person has an abortion in another state (it doesn't matter if they traveled from TN). Without such a violation of TN law, the speech is not integral to criminal conduct.
Yes, there was never an asserted right to travel because TN did not have a companion law that proscribed such travel. If there was such a law, then the plaintiff would have assert that right in order to prevail.
That is not extraterritorial application. The law applies only to the sale of pork in California, which of course takes place in California. Nothing that happens outside of California can be regulated in any way by California.
This law applies only to solicitation in Tennessee. It is not regulating anything else that happens anywhere in the world.
Yes, but the solicitation is protected speech because it does not solicit unlawful conduct.
Daniel A. Horowitz is one of the plaintiff’s attorneys in this case. He had been the editor of SCOTblog which was, as the name implies, a blog about the Supreme Court of TN, but also discussed cases in the courts of appeals and criminal appeals.
The blog has disappeared from the internet. I have tried to convince him to bring it back but to no avail.
He recently won a case lifting a gag order on attorneys: https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2025/05/19/middle-tennessee-federal-court-rule-lawyers-daniel-horwitz-corecivic/83694442007/