The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
On Schadenfreude
It is time, I suggest, to give what-about-ism a well-deserved burial.
Co-blogger Josh Blackman here acknowledges that he hasn't been following the legal developments in the TikTok case too closely, and that his reaction to the Attorney General's claim that the President had "nullified the legal effects of a statute passed by large bipartisan majorities in 2024" is "schaudenfreude."
For more than a decade, I've written about how the Obama Administration nullified the Affordable Care Act's mandates, as well as immigration law through policies like DAPA and DACA. I'm sure smart lawyers can draw distinctions between the Obama orders and Trump's orders. But I'm not sure those distinctions matter. President Obama found ways to disregard laws he didn't like through hyper-creative means, but since those laws accomplished "positive" goals, everyone looked the other way.
I haven't followed the developments too closely, either - though close enough to recognize that Trump is - again - defying the explicit, express command of the law.[1]
[1] The statute establishing the TikTok ban authorized the president to grant a "1-time extension of not more than 90 days" with respect to the date on which this subsection would otherwise apply" - that is, up until April 20 - but only if the president certifies to Congress concrete progress toward divestiture of TikTok—including "binding legal agreements to enable execution" of divestiture "in place." The President recently announced his third "extension" of his non-enforcement order, this time up until September 17, 2025.
Personally, I'm super-excited to see which of our President's billionaire buddies will get handed this multi-billion dollar gift - operational control over TikTok, at some huge discount from the market price, all tidily negotiated with the Chinese by you-know-who. [The smart money is, apparently, on Larry Ellison of Oracle]. What's he going to get in return?! Can't wait to see. And I'm hopeful that this will help people see this grift for what it is.[*2]
[*2]On a number of occasions, Trump has indicated that there is a connection between the tariff negotiations and getting the Chinese to approve a TikTok sale. [See e.g. here] Something like: OK, I'll lower the tariff on toys from 50% to 40%, but only if you get ByteDance to sell TikTok to my pal [insert favored billionaire here] at 25% off.
I'm actually beginning to think that this helps explain much of Trump's erratic (to put it mildly) tariff policy, the whole point of which, it is now becoming pretty clear, was to get leaders from every country in the world to come to the President and beg for his blessing (and maybe throw in a hotel/golf club building permit or two). Thank you, Godfather!
But all that is neither here nor there. What I really want to talk about is schadenfreude and what-about-ism.
Josh is a strong what-about-ist. "What about Obama's suspension of the ACA mandates? What about Biden's student loan forgiveness orders? Etc. Where were you then? Why weren't you concerned about executive encroachment when the president had a 'positive' goal, but you're so concerned now?"
He writes "I'm sure smart lawyers can draw distinctions between the Obama orders and Trump's orders. But I'm not sure those distinctions matter."
Here is a distinction that matters, and matters a great deal, between Trump's orders and Obama's (and Biden's, and GW Bush's, and Clinton's, and Eisenhower's, and Truman's …): Trump, unlike all of those other presidents, has clearly expressed, in word and deed, his disregard of any limits on his powers to do pretty much anything he wants to do. Tariffs, funding freezes, bombing Iran, deploying the National Guard in L.A., dismantling US AID and the Nat'l Science Foundation, etc.
Again. And again.
And again. And again.
Maybe you disagree with that. I gather some people do, though I find it difficult to imagine how someone could look at this Administration's record to date and think: this is a President who has appropriate respect for the constraints on his powers that the Constitution lodged in the other branches of the federal government. But maybe you do.
But to me - and, I would suggest, anyone looking objectively and rationally at Trump's record in office so far - it gives each individual act of malfeasance - such as "nullifying" a federal statute - a much, much more sinister resonance.
So no, I didn't write anything about executive overreach when Obama suspended the Affordable Care Act's mandates, or when Biden implemented his loan forgiveness program. Why not? Because I doubted that I had anything much to add to a necessarily rather technical argument about what the president was doing and what the statute required him to do, and because those actions did not seem to me to be part of some larger Obama or Biden project to dismantle the law-making institutions of this country and to arrogate all power to the president.
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Post 1 - 0 Blackman (FT)
But the cultists, who actually desire that Dear Leader arrogate all power to himself, will no doubt bleat about TDS
MAGA has full moral justification to engage in lawfare, after what was done to Trump. I would support mass arrests of the prior administration, ridiculous trials, and placing them in general population in max prison. That is my feeling. I still have more awareness than the lawyer profession. I see the problem with this view. The lawyers at the highest level of responsibility are oblivious to how evil they are.
The tu quoque argument is fallatious. That is what-aboutism.
On the other hand, justice is defined as equal treatment.
The solution is to stop committing fallacies in the law, and have everyone stop doing it. What we have now are garbage policy decisions from feelings, moods, cultural values, hanger, what side of the bed, self interest, interests of friends, of donors, of rich patrons.
End the self dealt immunities of these lawyers. Start punishing fallacies, and decisions without external validation. Lawyer decisions have no reliability statistics, let alone any external validation. The sole validation of lawyer decisions is some men with guns.
The Mob has full moral justification to engage in lawfare, after what was done to Gotti.
FTFY
Tu quoque is an informal logical fallacy when it is employed as a counter-argument, but it is nevertheless useful to highlight an opponent's hypocrisy.
DB made a lighthearted post, Post issued a spittle filled screed
Anti-Trump is more of a cult than the one you imagine from MAGA, which is just basic political tribalism.
When even Bob's best defense is 'hey it was just for fun' you know it's indefensible.
Did Bob just whatabout Post's whatabout?
Let's get serious -- what part of "I've got a pen and I've got a phone" recognized any limits???
The phone part certainly recognizes that he needed to persuade other people to support his policies in the absence of new legislation. The pen part does not suggest that he intended to ignore court rulings on his executive actions; if you had any examples of that, you would be putting those forward.
Whatabouting is a perfectly sound and logically valid response to claims of norm-breaking.
He who complains “whataboutism !” has two reasonable counter gambits :
1. point us to your contemporaneous criticism of the whatabout identified by the whatsboutist. That establishes your bona fides.
2. Or demonstrate that the whatabout is not comparable to the current controversy. David’s effort at this seems to be - this guy is a repeat offender openly contemptuous of the law generally whereas that guy only broke into a couple of houses, and merely declaimed “if you won’t give me your stuff I have a jemmy.” Which is totally different.
Whatabouting is a perfectly sound and logically valid response to claims of norm-breaking.
The only people who think this have no principles of their own.
Your prescriptions are if someone is worried about hypocricy. That's a much smaller issue than nihilistically embracing Presidential lawlessness.
If it is bad, then someone doing it back the day doesn't make it now good. Hypocrisy by the person pointing it out doesn't change that.
[Though I would note plenty on here criticized Obama and Biden for plenty of stuff when they were in charge. Drones, ultra vires student loan forgiveness...]
"plenty on here criticized Obama and Biden"
Not you!
Inflation is transitory!
Biden shows no signs of dementia!
I don't know if I've seen you ever criticize Trump, but you're not in it for the reality of it all. You're open about only caring about winning.
Meanwhile, I criticized the student loan thing as not within the executive authority. I criticized Biden's tariffs. I said Obama got rolled by the GOP Congress. Obama didn't close Gitmo. Yada yada.
And yeah, criticizing Biden for inflation was and remains ignorant or in bad faith.
"I don't know if I've seen you ever criticize Trump"
In a thread about "whataboutism," I sincerely hope you're trying to be cleverly ironic.
Oh no, that was a direct charge of hypocricy to Bob;
if you note I responded to his comment as well.
Howsabout we just define Trump's behavior on its own merits. Is he abiding the Constitution or breaking it? Who cares what Gerald Ford did.
Shorter version: I like the presidents who did this before so that's okay. I don't like Trump so it isn't okay.
The truth is there is no principled way to distinguish Trump, Biden, and Obama disregarding laws they disagree with so we have "But Trump!" as the argument.
I think it's bad that Trump disregards some laws. I think it was bad when Obama, Biden, Bush, etc. disregarded laws. But when we allow "our guy" to do it we weaken the argument that it's bad on principle.
The way that many disregard immigration law and encourage others to do so is another example. Since it is okay (according to many) to ignore immigration laws with no real recourse do I get to pick a section of malum prohibitum law I can ignore? If not, what is your principled reasoning for that?
The truth is there is no principled way to distinguish Trump, Biden, and Obama
Yeah, you FEEL this. But you haven't done the work.
disregard immigration law
Point to the law that was disregarded.
I'm sure it is written in US code somewhere to allow millions of illegals into the country - at least if you have the almighty (D) after your name.
I always thought there was a method to entering the US legally - I'm pretty sure it doesn't involve just crossing the border wherever - But (D) don't care, the last few months have shown everyone that your average (D) politician cares more about those in the US illegally then citizens. Maybe you can explain why that is
Your sure?
Find it.
Your table pounding and story telling about those awful Dems look like you don’t know or care about the actual law, just your feelings of resentment and hatred.
your average (D) politician cares more about those in the US illegally then citizens.
What citizens? You and your butthurt feelings? Yeah we don't care about that in the slightest.
Since when did conservatives turn into such pathetic whimpering crybabies?
Can you tell me a principled way to distinguish between prior presidents ignoring the law and Trump ignoring the law? A principle to which you would hold a future or past Democratic president?
And immigration law was disregarded when an entire group of people was given a "right" to stay and work in the US without any law other than Obama's pen. You may have heard of "dreamers"?
DACA was different from the Dream Act. because it purported to work within true INA’s discretion.
Trump ain’t doing that.
How about, yes HOW ABOUT, when Obama used prosecutorial discretion to not deport millions of illegal immigrants because their families included young children?
The only people who complain about whataboutism are the ones who get caught by it and have no better response.
Whataboutism is at best self-defeating. You're just admitting Trump is no better than the guy you really really hate.
And that's when the whataboutism is accurate. Yours, naturally, isn't. So you've admitted Trump sucks and got nothing in return.
I'm certainly not complaining. Keep up the whataboutism, guys!
Yeah, no immigration laws were disregarded by Obama. That's just Fox News whispering sweet nothings in your ear. Biden disregarded one in order to illegally block asylum claims on the southern border. (Trump is disregarding that one too, and more.)
Your best chance at defending Trump with whataboutism would be to say something like "Well at least Trump is being open about it! He's not making convoluted technical arguments to carve out little exceptions like Obama. He's just flat out ignoring whole laws and saying so. He's refreshingly transparent."
Of course, that'd be justifying fascism, but at least it's true.
You may forget that when Obama got elected, the nominal leader of the Republican party at the time (Limbaugh) commanded that no legislation must pass ("I hope he fails!!!"). Newly minted Ted Cruz (who was once again made a bitch by Tucker Carlson on TV a couple of weeks ago) kept supplying us with government shutdowns. Thus began the era when Congress does nothing and the executive has to legislate by fiat.
So I don't begrudge a president having to legislate within the constraints established by the Constitution. The question remains: is the Constitution being broken in the process?
Thanks for posting. It's nice to occasionally have something thoughtful on this blog instead of another dull pseudonym post or Josh's insane garbage
"Whataboutism" is libspeak for "stop calling attention to my double standards."
Except that pointing out the hypocrisy of someone on the other side of the debate in no way disproves the point the other side is making; yet it is done either to deflect from or to purportedly refute the point. It is, in fact, an admission of the inability to refute the point being made.
Is there something wrong with pointing out hypocrisy? Doesn't that go to impeaching someone's credibility?
Because pointing out the past without addressing the current...advances nothing
Is there something wrong with pointing out hypocrisy?
No. It's seldom productive in advancing or refuting a point. If I claim something Trump did is illegal, it doesn't disprove the illegality to show that Obama also did it uncriticised - even if the two illegal actions were commensurable, which as Post pointed out, tends not to be the case.
Doesn't that go to impeaching someone's credibility?
No - that would lead you to an ad hominem.
"No - that would lead you to an ad hominem."
The realization that certain people are not arguing in good faith and in fact do not even believe their own premises isn't an ad hominem, it's a time-saver.
Yes. Half the time it isn't real anyway, and in any case is a deflection from the discussion. Take the argument, "Trump shouldn't have bombed Iran w/o Congressional authorization."
Half of the time the "hypocrisy" identified is purely hypothetical, like, "You wouldn't be complaining if Biden had done that." There's no way to even know if that's true, and it doesn't address at all the topic of whether Trump should've bombed Iran w/o authorization.
Or sometimes it's not hypothetical, but wrong, like, "You didn't complain when Obama bombed Libya without Congressional authorization," even when the person did complain about that. (Or when the person was only 12 years old when Obama did that.) And it doesn't address at all the topic of whether Trump should've bombed Iran w/o authorization.
But even if it's actually an accurate accusation, it still doesn't address at all the topic of whether Trump should've bombed Iran w/o authorization. It's just a way to change the subject.
"Trump is doing something without precedent!"
"Here are some precedents from prior administrations."
"wHATabOUTisM!"
The Trump administration hardly invented prosecutorial discretion. On its very first day, the Biden administration issued a memo announcing it was pausing deportations for 100 days - court-ordered deportations. For all the caterwauling from Whiny Post and his leftist ilk, falsely accusing Trump of "defying court orders" (not present in the Tik-Tok case), in one fell swoop, Biden (or at least the unknown people actually making the decisions during his tenure) decided to defy thousands of court orders.
But that was (D)ifferent, because it always is.
Blackman didn’t cite prosecutorial discretion. Neither did Bondi,
Because that’s not applicable to just ignoring an entire law wholesale.
They know it. You should too.
Yes, she did quite explicitly, if you had bothered to glance at the linked memos the New York Times was crying about.
https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/daadbcdc530542d1/b88a2a59-full.pdf
... the Attorney General's authority to enter settlements limiting the future exercise of executive branch discretion.
Anybody who takes that seriously be an retarded. The DoJ can't just waive its future discretion. A whim is not a settlement.
Of course, it can. Non-prosecution agreements happen every day. They would be quite worthless if the government could change its mind and say, "I know we promised not to prosecute you if you [did X], but now we're going to prosecute you for [doing X]."
This isn't a non-prosecution agreement.
I can't tell if you're desperate or indeed retarded.
Apparently, the attorneys at Google and Apple are also retarded, as they have, contra Randal, taken the Attorney General's promise seriously and continue to allow their companies to offer the Tik Tok app in their stores, blissfully unaware that they may be prosecuted in the future.
Perhaps they will stumble upon this page so they can have the benefit of the keen legal minds of you and Randal.
There is no non-prosecution agreement. There was no negotiations, and there is no such document.
What you are describing is big companies betting on the admin being lawless and unchecked.
Seems bad.
It's a shame the people running Apple and Google and their ill-informed attorneys are so retarded, "gambling", as they are, with a potential $350 BILLION fine hanging over them. They must not realize that Trump won't be President forever, and a future administration, which may not be so "lawless and unchecked", may spring that fine on them.
They must foolishly believe that promise not to prosecute (a phrase I use in deference to your pedantic obtuseness) from the Attorney General is binding on future administrations. Again, we can only pray they somehow see your post, so they can actually understand the law.
(The above is, of course, SARCASm. They are fully protected by the AG's promise not to prosecute, and one doesn't need a law degree to understand that, just a little common sense).
Well, you apparently have neither. No reasonable person would believes that the AG can make a binding promise that if someone breaks the law going forward, that no future AG will prosecute the person for that act.
You don't need to be a lawyer to work out how this is not an agreement:
Agreements which are binding on 2 parties.
This was done by one party, and isn't even really even binding on them;
it's just some pretext for why the admin is gonna ignore the law for now.
You seem to be leaning on some idea that if a corporation thinks something is going to happen, that thing must be legal. It's very silly, and I sill don't understand what's wrong with you that you would even try to make that argument.
A non-prosecution agreement is (wait for it) an agreement. Not just a unilateral promise not to prosecute (in exchange for no consideration at all).
Siri, is pausing something the same as announcing that it's actually legal even though the law says it isn't legal?
No, this is just TDS. So why did he bother getting Congress to pass the BBB, if he can do it all on his own?
Bombing Iran was relatively tame, compared to what Presidents have done in the past.
this is just TDS.
Thank you. The ever-reliable Roger S....
It's either 'but Biden/Obama' or 'you suffer from TDS'. Us normies just have to realize that they'll never address any current situation
There is no issue here, except that Post hates Trump.
"objectively and rationally"
I have no idea how you of all people could recognize either attribute, since you show little of either in your entire posting history.
Post make Bob mad.
Bob smash!
Post is a bit off. Obama explicitly said he did not have the authority to do something, then he saw that he had a pen and a phone, and then he did it. It's arguably worse than the Trump thing.
The problem with what-about arguments is that they are a distraction. It's an argument to not take Post seriously as a good faith critic (if you only have principles when the other side is in power, you don't have principles), but it's not a defense of the underlying actions. It's effectively charging the other guy with hypocrisy. Josh is right to be annoyed that Post is mad about Trump but sanguine about Obama. But it's a little rich for Josh to say others are hypocritical when he's apparently fine with Trump's lawbreaking. The answer is that both are wrong, and mama always said that two wrongs don't make a right.
DACA != the Dream Act.
You can look it up.
Are you drunk on wine coolers or something? Your comment makes no sense.
While I respect the importance of the Executive ignoring the laws and failing his Oath of Office, I feel like it needs to be pointed out even more strongly that Trump's own administration is the one that first raised TikTok as a security risk for America but then, after the CEO of TikTok visited Trump and presented - by Trump's own word - charts about how much the product had helped advanced his cause during the election, Trump gave it an extension that's now stretched for 6+ months.
Secret and subversive election interference by a foreign party - whether for or against your own candidacy - is an attack on the nation. Any politician that doesn't go ape-shit over it is hard to title as anything - to my eye - but treasonous. You're, by definition, putting your own interests over those of the nation and the citizens.
When the gulf states and the Chicoms bought controlling interest in Trump coin, now they have the kompromat of the Trump clan family jewels in a vice. Now we get to watch the quo flow from the quid: TikTok gets a lifeline. Advanced chips, weapons and nuclear reactors get to be in the hands of terrorist gulf states. But, hey, the Trump clan stays solvent
>Personally, I'm super-excited to see which of our President's billionaire buddies will get handed this multi-billion dollar gift - operational control over TikTok, at some huge discount from the market price, all tidily negotiated with the Chinese by you-know-who
Hunter Biden? Is that who? He was the CCP bag man under the last admin, he's probably still got good contacts.
Just stopped by to say that what-about-ism is a perfectly valid argument and objection when you personally consistently hold the position and object when both sides transgress.
I was against Obama & Biden executive order overreach, and I'm against Trump executive order overreach. I'm opposed to excessive delegation by Congress to the president in general. On the latter, that's a policy question which may not inform whether the delegation is unconstitutional. Which is why I generally oppose the tariffs delegation but (mostly) accept it's legal legitimacy.
I will absolutely call shenanigans on anyone who only objects when the other guy does it. Which most recently has been The Resistance™ objecting to Trump. Sorry not sorry.
It was just a mere seven months ago that Josh wrote a post titled:
"Biden Will Not Enforce TikTok Ban For Final 36 Hours Of His Presidency: Anyone remember the Take Care Clause? And way to undermine your SG!"
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/01/16/biden-will-not-enforce-tiktok-ban-for-final-36-hours-of-his-presidency/
Won't someone think of the Take Care Clause!!?!
Ouch! Well, there it is hayseeds (a shout out to quantumboxcat for the research). Your towering hypocrisy laid bare