The Volokh Conspiracy
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ICE, the LA Protests, and Trump's Domestic Use of the Military
Trump's domestic use of the military to counter anti-deportation protests in LA is so far very limited. But that could change. A big part of the root of the problem is the lawless behavior of federal immigation-enforcement agencies.

President Donald Trump has deployed some 2000 National Guard troops to Los Angeles in response to protests against ICE deportation operations. As yet, the authority he has invoked for this domestic use of the military is very limited. See the detailed analyses of the relevant law by legal scholars Chris Mirasola and Steve Vladeck. That could change if Trump decides to invoke the Insurrection Act, which grants far broader authority to use the military for domestic law enforcement. Whether and to what extent that power is subject to significant limitations is controversial. For details, see this analysis by Elizabeth Goitein of the Brennan Center, a leading expert on this subject.
In the meantime, I worry that the current, relatively limited, deployment of troops, might lead to dangerous escalation. An unfortunate incident caused by malicious, reckless, or foolish behavior by one or a few individuals on either side could lead to broader violence, or be used as an excuse for more extensive military intervention. So far, at least, I have not seen reports of rioting or other violence on anything like the scale that could justify the extreme expedient of domestic use of the military. But it's a fast-moving situation, and things might be different by the time you read this.
However things turn out, it's important to emphasize that the anti-ICE protests and resulting confrontations are in large part a result of federal immigration enforcers' own lawless behavior. Under Trump, ICE has routinely engaged in such illegal and arbitrary practices as deporting people (including many legal immigrants) to imprisonment without due process and kidnapping children as they and their families show up for legally required court appointments. More generally, this administration has repeatedly invoked bogus emergencies to circumvent constitutional and other legal constraints on executive power, and such abuses have been particularly severe in the field of immigration.
When law enforcement agencies themselves engage in systematic lawlessness, they are not entitled to the deference and cooperation they might otherwise expect from civilians. The latter have a right to resist in ways that would otherwise be illegal and unjustified. This point is distinct from traditional rationales for civil disobedience that may apply even in situations where government officials are acting completely legally, but the underlying laws are themselves severely unjust (as is also often true in the immigration field). There is additional justification for civilian resistance to and noncooperation with law enforcement, when it is the latter who are acting unlawfully.
None of this suggests that protestors are entitled to do whatever they want. Rioting and other violence that harms innocent people is still both illegal and wrong. What I wrote in 2020 at the time of the George Floyd protests—many of which degenerated into riots and looting—remains applicable today:
Much can be done to roll back abusive law enforcement practices…. But one tactic that must be avoided is the kind of rioting and looting that has occurred over the last few days…
Most of the damage caused by rioting is inflicted on innocent people who are in no way responsible for police abuses. Destruction and looting of stores and other businesses not only hurts the owners and employees of those enterprises, but also impoverishes the broader communities of which they are a part. Violence and violation of property rights reduce investment and economic development, which predictably exacerbates the poverty of minority inner-city neighborhoods. The negative economic effects can persist for many years.
It may be tempting to say that rioting and other similar violence is justified if you are doing it in the name of a just cause. But even people with legitimate grievances must still observe moral limits on tactics they use to pursue them. Ignoring this principle is a recipe for disaster.
The 2020 protestors had a legitimate grievance: widespread racial profiling by law enforcement. But many reacted in ways that were themselves unjust. So far, we have not seem large-scale rioting in LA. Hopefully, it can be prevented. We must oppose ICE lawlessness and injustice without harming innocent people ourselves.
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When there are riots calling the National Guard is warranted. There was no excuse for the protesters to turn violent. They are about to learn the meaning of FAFO.
Yes, federal law allows for this in case of “a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States.” That is what this is. Gov. Newsom has failed to maintain order.
Somin’s Trump-hatred runs so deep that now he justifies riots. And cites George Floyd as a justification. Somin is a disgusting anti-American Marxist.
“Somin’s Trump-hatred runs so deep that now he justifies riots.”
Liar or can’t read?
I am guessing that you cannot read. Somin is in favor of rioting, even if it is illegal, if it is against ICE policies and does not harm people.
Lying or can’t read?
“ What I wrote in 2020 at the time of the George Floyd protests—many of which degenerated into riots and looting—remains applicable today:
Much can be done to roll back abusive law enforcement practices…. But one tactic that must be avoided is the kind of rioting and looting that has occurred over the last few days…
Most of the damage caused by rioting is inflicted on innocent people who are in no way responsible for police abuses. Destruction and looting of stores and other businesses not only hurts the owners and employees of those enterprises, but also impoverishes the broader communities of which they are a part. Violence and violation of property rights reduce investment and economic development, which predictably exacerbates the poverty of minority inner-city neighborhoods. The negative economic effects can persist for many years.
It may be tempting to say that rioting and other similar violence is justified if you are doing it in the name of a just cause. But even people with legitimate grievances must still observe moral limits on tactics they use to pursue them.”
Right. Somin excuses the rioting, except that he opposes “the kind of rioting and looting that has occurred over the last few days”. Other rioting is just fine. And he refuses to say that the rioters should be punished.
Again, are you lying or can you not read? He’s quoting himself referring to the riots after George Floyd’s murder so it’s clear he’s against more rioting than just the recent few days. He explicitly condemns any rioting that harms innocent people, involves looting or destruction as unjust.
I guess you are agreeing with me.
No, I’m saying that you’re lying about or can’t read what Somin wrote.
If he did, then you would be able to quote it.
I’ve quoted it extensively. You’re lying or you can’t read.
Oooh, made up Character getting his panties in a bunch!! more popcorn!
But don’t mind me, I’m a made up character too
There was no “widespread racial profiling” done by police that justified protesting or rioting. That is a lie, and contradicts crime/policing statistics.
yes newsom employed police against people walking on the beach during covid
but wont deploy national guard against rioters
He is deploying police just like you said he did with COVID.
yep he wants to so badly come out fully in favor of the rioters (despite probably wanting January 6ers to languish in jail for life) but knows he can’t so Mister No Tolerance for Riots against the Government uses a justification sandwich…justification…uh lets just throw this in to ensure that you know I’m not completely outing myself as pro-rioter….justification.
You’re delusional. He explicitly objects to the rioting in paragraph after paragraph, ya goof.
The Government’s authority is based on laws.
Authority without laws is fascism, and is exactly the thing people are supposed to rebel against.
CountmontyC — What if they find out—like rioters following the MLK assassination did—that senseless destruction of property works politically, after nothing else delivered anything but empty moralizing like Somin’s?
Of course, I too am worried about violence in LA. Two-thousand guardsmen is more a provocation than a deterrent. For now, probably all the Guard is accomplishing is to marginalize and disempower local law enforcement, who are collectively more numerous.
Nor does it seem likely that Trump and his ilk will apply constraint against mowing down innocents with live ammunition. After all, that is what you are looking forward to, right? And you are the base.
So yeah, it would be better for everyone to stand down. Do you think the lawless thugs running immigration enforcement intend to do that? If they did, they could resort to due process, keep deporting, and face little or no lawless opposition.
What is that you think was achieved by the riots after MLK’s death? A notable reduction in black/white income disparity? I must have missed it. A reduction in black incarceration rates? I missed that one too. Please flesh out your claim a little more.
Who could miss something like that? Someone who was not there; someone who never paid attention to black people before then; someone not old enough to pay attention; someone stuck in a rural backwater where nothing much changed? Any of that you? How old are you? Where did you live before 1968, and after?
Nice non-answer.
So you support senseless destruction of property? Would that include allowing MAGA supporters going into predominantly illegal alien neighborhoods and destroying property to drive the illegal aliens out of the USA or do you reserve the senseless destruction to the causes you support?
….to the causes he supports….
I never got an answer to how — exactly — BLM was different from the Klan….
CountmontyC — Muted. For stupidity.
Obviously Lathrop didn’t think of the possible consequences of his proposal and since called out on it prefers to plugs his ears and scream loudly over and over “I CAN’T HEAR YOU.”
“When there are riots calling the National Guard is warranted. There was no excuse for the protesters to turn violent”
Two words: January 6th.
The Jan 6th Fratboys did not light fires, and did not set of fireworks.
The Cali police declared it an “unlawful assembly” (in both English and Spanish) and hence I think everyone who can be identified as being present ought to be arrested — at home by a dozen FBI agents at 5 AM — and also held without bail, perhaps at Camp Pendleton.
Federalizing the National Guard was done in the South when the states would not enforce the civil rights laws, and it is the right thing to do here when states refuse to permit the enforcement of other federal laws.
If we wind up with a million people with criminal records — great, let’s deny them all welfare benefits on that basis and look at all the money we would save.
Let’s add in that January 6 was over after a few hours while these riots have spawned three days.
Y’all are coming up with some carefully tailored standards.
You want to arrest people who did violent stuff like happened on January 06? I don’t think anyone, including Prof. Somin, would take issue.
You, though, want these people to ‘find out.’
Your lust for violence betrays your attempted analogy.
Were fires set on January 6? Did the very minimal riot end after only a few hours?Are the riots still ongoing in LA?
You aren’t responding to what I wrote. So I will repeat it.
1. Y’all are coming up with some carefully tailored standards. ‘was there fire?’ and ‘was it quick?’ and that’s all you care about? Get outta town.
2. You want violence. That’s well beyond what Jan 06 people got.
So your ‘this is worse than Jan 06’ is just cherry picking some convenient metrics. And even if those metrics were legit and this is like January 06, that would mean arrest people. It would not mean this is a rebellion time for these people to ‘find out.’
The keyboard fascists are thirsty for brownskinned blood.
Californian blood, really.
They’ll otherize anyone at this point.
Fair.
I think you mean spanned three days.
I am somewhat upset that the Administration didn’t learn the lesson from Jan 6th and have troops ready to move in sooner.
Jan 6th the troops were ok’d days before they were needed but it still took 3 or 4 hours before they were deployed.
Here it took almost 24 hours after the insurrection started to deploy the troops.
Crikey!
Question: ‘KILL ICE’ graffiti is (1) free expression …”protest” or (2) a threat?
who is funding the rioters?
the taxpayers
Are the protesters initiating the violence or are ICE personnel?
Skimpy dress argument?
The protesters. ICE is acting within their legal authority.
How can you tell? Behind their masks, you can’t even identify whether they are enforcement officers. Or unsworn grifters getting day-rates to push people around.
I love these left-wing conspiracy theories. Those aren’t real officers! Trump visited Pedophile Island! (I know, that right-wing ones are just as loony, but we don’t have any in this thread yet.)
y81 — You do not have to be a conspiracy theorist to see what shows up on news footage. Ubiquitous masked law enforcement is a field mark of an insecure police state. We are seeing ubiquitous masked federal law enforcement.
When due process is totally gone is when police state thugs take the masks off. Then it’s too late to do anything except emigrate, if you can.
What laws are you alleging that ICE is committing?
From the OP:
“it’s important to emphasize that the anti-ICE protests and resulting confrontations are in large part a result of federal immigration enforcers’ own lawless behavior. Under Trump, ICE has routinely engaged in such illegal and arbitrary practices as deporting people (including many legal immigrants) to imprisonment without due process and kidnapping children as they and their families show up for legally required court appointments. More generally, this administration has repeatedly invoked bogus emergencies to circumvent constitutional and other legal constraints on executive power, and such abuses have been particularly severe in the field of immigration.”
So in response to these allegations rioting is the answer?
Oh and I disagree with Somin that ICE is breaking the law. Somin in general doesn’t believe that there should be any immigration laws so I take his claims of ICE criminality with enough salt to fill the Pacific ocean.
Somin explicitly condemns rioting as a response over and over.
For fuck’s sake read the OP or don’t argue against it.
I read the OP , I am just not buying what he is selling. I don’t believe has acted in a criminal manner nor do I see how interfering in legal law enforcement activities by ICE helps the protesters/rioters cause. Or are you claiming immigration raids are illegal somehow?
Your read the OP, but accuse Somin of saying stuff he didn’t because you don’t like what he wrote?
It’s a bold strategy.
are you claiming immigration raids are illegal somehow?
Not facially, but given the Admin’s recent track record, and the prioritization of flashy performance over diligence, I wouldn’t be confident on a case-by-case basis.
Doesn’t mean it’s time to do crimes, but ICE is doing some Fugitive Slave Act shit.
Picking up people at their immigration hearings when their lawyer steps out, picking up kids to use as hostages to get parents.
It’s profoundly unjust, and you know what they say about an unjust law.
“It’s profoundly unjust”
Why exactly is it unjust to arrest someone at an immigration hearing?
Same energy as if you asked what was unjust about the fugitive slave act?
If I need to explain it to you, you’re to deeply into bad faith or dehumanization for it to take.
Um, what was unjust about the Fugitive Slave Act was that it involved slavery, which is unjust. This does not involve slavery. Other than that, great point!
Why exactly is it unjust to arrest someone at an immigration hearing?
If you can’t answer clearly and honestly…perhaps you’ve made a mistake.
read the op and due some level of due diligence to ascertain the accuracy of the op.
The op is quite frankly of dubious accuracy
Anyone familiar with his history knows Joe doesn’t know bupkis about accuracy.
He means it doesn’t agree with his priors.
“Why you make me hit you, baby?”
“Or unsworn grifters getting day-rates to push people around.”
You don’t know many cops, do you?
“…unsworn grifters getting day-rates…” would not only be a violation of the union rules — which absolutely WOULD be grieved — but cops are a fraternity — there is “us with a badge” and “everyone else.”
They simply wouldn’t tolerate unsworn “officers” — they simply wouldn’t.
Excepting the Guard units that are MP units, and there are a lot of them because of how the US fights wars, you will see the police (local and federal) demanding that the Guard play a support role only — UNLESS it gets to the point where the cops are worried about not going home alive. Then it becomes any port in a storm.
But otherwise, they are not going to tolerate unsworn grifters for another reason, they need to know what everyone else (i.e. other units) will do, and they go out in gravel pits and practice this. The absolute last thing they want is some yahoo doing something unpredictable. That’s what happened at Kent State, and a LOT was learned from that — and from the 1968 Chicago Convention.
What Lathrop fails to realize is that every ICE agent wears badges and markers identifying them as ICE agents who are federal law enforcement agents. Furthermore the wearing of masks by federal law enforcement agents during raids has been around for decades. It is done for the protection of the federal agents who could face retaliation from the criminals that they are arresting.
Furthermore the wearing of masks by federal law enforcement agents during raids has been around for decades.
No. That’s incorrect. Until recently facial coverings have only been worn while performing undercover work. In order to protect the integrity of ongoing investigations, not to hide the identity of a non-undercover LEO.
This routine usage by non-undercover agents is very definitely a new development. You can try to spin it as “business as usual” but it’s not.
And if you have even a single libertarian cell in your body, you should be very alarmed by it.
There is no requirement that they be “identifiable”, is there?
And we all know why they must hide their identity, and why leftists insist that they be unmasked. Let’s not be cute about it.
I don’t know about leftists but there are a couple of reasons that come to mind why LEOs should be identifiable-so they can be held accountable if necessary and to put the suspect and bystanders on notice that this is a law enforcement action.
Really? What law requires that?
There’s a difference between officers announcing who they are and why they are there, and being personally identifiable.
That is a telling failure to respond to the question asked.
I do t know the answer. You don’t care.
Why are you like this?
Hey, that’s my line!
Don’t play dumb. Everyone knows why ICE and the National Guard are there, to provoke the protestors into violence.
Send a bunch of goons in riot gear and masks into a community to break up families by hauling away non-criminal undocumented immigrants (many going through the legal asylum process).
Of course decent people are going to stand up and resist.
Protesters from what I see.
And this is Day Three — if it were ICE, there would be reports, publicized by a friendly media, of them doing so. At this point, there would be cell phone video clips.
Three excellent things in one.
Yes, don’t sit on your callous asss like Biden. People rioting , Deal with it.
Yes, the National Guard wants to be of use, and this is perfect.
Yes, , almost all people with families and normal lives want this bullshit put down immediatelly. Not like hateful assshole Biden who lets people suffer, let’s violence continue and then gets on Tv and talks about how no one needs guns. The complete idiot
Yes. Remember those who allowed these riots to continue.
This is going to expand dramatically — California is an easier state to riot in (logistically) but it will expand to about a dozen more states, and the Dems think it will win them the 2026 elections. It won’t — not if Trump keeps calling out federalized guard — because there are more people who want safety than who want violence.
Geez, imagine if protestors started storming the US Capitol. Trump’s response would be HUGE!
Do you mean the guided tours or the capitol takeover over Kavanaugh?
He probably means the time that Trump offered a preemptive yuuuge response, but Pelosi & co turned it down because of optics.
Oh horseshit.
How does this crap stay alive?
Because it’s the truth, however inconvenient it is for commie filth.
Stays alive because it’s the actual truth.
2 ipse dixits so far!
This was from the Congressional testimony. There’s multiple statements saying it happened.
Nice try though.
If we treated the LA rioters like J6 protestors, then they would be sentenced to 20 years in prison for violating the Enron Act, an obscure law about preserving accounting documents.
I had no idea that what makes bear-spraying and beating Capital police with flagpoles a crime is that it violates the Enron Act.
And now Hugo Chavez-wannabe Hegseth of offering camp Pendleton marines. Fascists all. 86 47
Calls for assassination of the President should not be tolerated on this board.
Complaining to the authorities. On a libertarian political forum.
Did you get lost from somewhere?
That message has an audience of one: Gavin Newsome.
What he (and Trump) are saying is: “Don’t screw with us on Federalizing the CA Guard or we will send active duty instead.”
The Guard is a state organization — Newsome could throw a lot of sand into the gears. This is a warning not to.
We saw this before in Minneapolis. Newsome and Bass are playing the roles of Walz and Frey.
Remember Mrs. Walz loved the smell of burning rubber.
Trump praised Minnesota Gov. Walz in 2020 for response to unrest over Floyd’s murder
https://apnews.com/article/tim-walz-trump-audio-riots-george-floyd-3b349ec2a8611f242333b76512a82d4f#
The article says: “Governor Walz allowed Minneapolis to burn for days, despite President Trump’s offer to deploy soldiers and cries for help from the liberal Mayor of Minneapolis,” Leavitt said. “In this daily briefing phone call with Governors on June 1, days after the riots began, President Trump acknowledged Governor Walz for FINALLY taking action to deploy the National Guard to end the violence in the city.”
That was Trump’s spokesperson’s later spin. What Trump himself said at the time was:
“Trump, in the June 1, 2020, call, described Walz as “an excellent guy” and later said: “I don’t blame you. I blame the mayor.” The president didn’t criticize the governor at the time.
“Tim, you called up big numbers and the big numbers knocked them out so fast, it was like bowling pins,” Trump said.”
Roger has no interest in facts.
Lying is his business. He either free-lances or spreads lies for others.
I quoted the AP article. Go read it yourself, if you do not believe it.
You quoted the article quoting Trump’s campaign spokesperson’s comment months later. I quoted the article quoting what Trump said at the time of the unrest.
Send I MEF in and pacify LA. The violence and destruction of the summer of 2020 must never be allowed to happen again. Make examples of the rioters.
I’d rather send in an equal number of MP units — they are prepared for this, the MEF is not. They also are equipped for it, the MEFis not.
And a USN Shore Patrol unit is up there with a MEF in abilities.
MURDER DEATH KILL.
How could you think you’re one of the good guys, asking for the slaughter of American citizens as an “example?”
The phrasing in Trump’s proclamation suggests a quite disturbing longer game, an intention to establish a legal finding of “rebellion,” providing a legal foundation for an attempt to suspend habeas corpus and forestalling of judicial oversight of many of Trump’s most drastic actions.
Know how to prevent that conspiracy from coming true? Have the local authorities actually have the police arrest the rioters and keep the peace. That way President Trump can’t declare insurrection or rebellion.
“According to police, 11 arrests were made at Saturday night’s protests outside the federal building in downtown Los Angeles.
The arrests were primarily for failure to disperse once the order was given for an unlawful demonstration.”
https://abc7.com/live-updates/tensions-flare-downtown-la-anti-ice-protesters-clash-agents-live-updates/16692645/entry/16696993/
And how many arrests could have been made with sufficient manpower?
Remember that Galvin Newson could have sent in the same Guard on Saturday Morning — and didn’t.
So they only arrested a small fraction of those breaking the law.
I’m betting no amount of arrests would satisfy you.
Counterfactual hypocrisy is the best hypocrisy!
That is exactly what Trump is doing.
So that’s the Trumpland version of events that justifies the use of the military to shut down a peaceful protest? Declaring that there have been “riots”?
Well, like all sane people said when Trump was elected last year, “a republic, if you can keep it…”
Crowds burning cars, taking over streets and throwing rocks at federal agents, I’m going to go with riot.
I’m going with people trying not to be tear-gassed by federal agents. Trust the LAPD, not a bunch of fascists trying to manufacture a reason for going to war with the civilian population of a state that didn’t vote for them.
They burned cars so they wouldn’t get tear-gassed? They threw rocks so they wouldn’t get tear-gassed? They took over streets so they wouldn’t get tear-gassed? Makes zero sense, even in Dutch.
No one was warring until the rioters showed up and started the violence. Just a few of Ilya’s friends getting arrested because of their criminal history (see below).
Once the rioters started rioting, shit was on and they get what they deserve.
What is “taking over streets?”
Whose streets are they?
You’re really reaching now. Ha! That’s good. I mean, not good in the sense of a good argument, or even in the sense of making sense. I mean good in the sense of you’ll really pull out anything to try to keep an argument going after you’ve lost it.
Failure to answer by declaring victory.
Way to commit to the bit, ‘stro.
Prof. Somin is just working hard to protect his friends who were unfairly arrested by ICE:
On June 7, 2025, ICE Los Angeles administratively arrested Jose Cristobal HERNANDEZ-Buitron, 43, a citizen of Peru. HERNANDEZ-Buitron has a criminal history that includes a conviction for Robbery that resulted in a 10 year sentence.
On June 7, 2025, ICE Los Angeles administratively arrested Chrissahdah TOOY, 48, a citizen of Indonesia. TOOY has a criminal history that includes convictions for Narcotics, Driving Under the Influence, and Illegal Entry.
On June 7, 2025, ICE Los Angeles administratively arrested Jordan Mauricio MEZA-Esquibel, 32, a citizen of Honduras. MEZA-Esquibel has a criminal history that includes arrests for Distribution of Heroin and Cocaine and Domestic Violence.
On June 7, 2025, ICE Los Angeles administratively arrested Francisco SANCHEZ-Arguello, 38, a citizen of Mexico. SANCHEZ-Arguello has a criminal history that includes arrests for Grand Theft Larceny and Possession of a Prohibited Weapon.
On June 7, 2025, ICE Los Angeles administratively arrested Cuong Chanh PHAN, 49, a citizen of Vietnam. PHAN has a criminal history that includes a conviction for Second Degree Murder and sentenced to 15 Years to Life.
On June 7, 2025, ICE Los Angeles administratively arrested Rolando VENERACION-Enriquez, 55, a citizen of the Philippines. VENERACION-Enriquez has a criminal history that includes convictions for Theft, Assault, Burglary, and Rape.
ICE Los Angeles was also reported to have been seizing business records from a business in the LA garment district.
I would so love to see them go after employers…
No you wouldn’t.
How many red-state farmers do you think are going to be arrested? Indeed, how many of their workers?
None, the fake ID’s are pretty good, I’ve got one myself
Fake character of course has a fake ID.
Does it look like this?
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.5ugIsVQ-MK4thv6dOSa9FgAAAA?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain
Strawman.
Those are actual people arrested by ICE and those are the people that Prof. Somin is defending.
“None of this suggests that protestors are entitled to do whatever they want. Rioting and other violence that harms innocent people is still both illegal and wrong.”
Arguing against real people is challenging, I know. And it doesn’t let you indulge your very angy feelz.
But you should try it.
Not arguing about anything here. I’m just stating that those were people arrested, and those are people Somin is defending.
So you’re real mad he’s defending people who did no rioting and other violence.
I’m stating that he’s defending people who have committed crimes and are being evicted from the country on that basis. Any anger you attribute to me is mind-reading or emotion reading. Maybe you’re one of those empaths from Star Trek. Was that Star Trek?
I only get angry when NG calls black people racist names. I’ll just come out and admit that. But you probably already knew that because you’re an empath. He’s been on good behavior for a while but I’m still watching him.
You post like you’re angry all the time.
That doesn’t seem the concern of the OP at all.
Calling people angry is just part of his shtick, he’s got some stereotype imagined and he has to fit people in it.
Ahhh… what? Legitimate greivances? Rioting and burning cars is ok, as long as its against ICE? Thats what I got from this post.
Somin has become very shrill and deranged.
Maybe it is still possible to deport. I am guessing that he did not acknowledge on his immigration papers that he planned to post law professor analyses in support of rioting against the federal government.
Do you see the part where Prof. Somin says rioting and burning cars is OK?
If you can’t argue against what he says, why bother?
I see where Somin says that rioting is OK, and where he fails to say that those burning cars should be punished.
Lying or can’t read. He explicitly condemns rioting over and over.
Somin says the rioters “have a right to resist in ways that would otherwise be illegal and unjustified.”
And then says “None of this suggests that protestors are entitled to do whatever they want. Rioting and other violence that harms innocent people is still both illegal and wrong.”
I guess you are agreeing with me. Somin prefers the rioting and violence that does not harm innocent people. He just wants the violence to harm those who violate his Marxist principles.
You are lying or you can’t read, because Somin wrote explicitly here:
“But one tactic that must be avoided is the kind of rioting and looting that has occurred over the last few days…
Most of the damage caused by rioting is inflicted on innocent people who are in no way responsible for police abuses. Destruction and looting of stores and other businesses not only hurts the owners and employees of those enterprises, but also impoverishes the broader communities of which they are a part. Violence and violation of property rights reduce investment and economic development, which predictably exacerbates the poverty of minority inner-city neighborhoods. The negative economic effects can persist for many years.
It may be tempting to say that rioting and other similar violence is justified if you are doing it in the name of a just cause. But even people with legitimate grievances must still observe moral limits on tactics they use to pursue them. Ignoring this principle is a recipe for disaster.”
This was quoted to you above, so, again you either can’t read the selection or you’re lying again.
I know Trump loves the poorly educated but how do you get that out of the post?
“The 2020 protestors had a legitimate grievance: widespread racial profiling by law enforcement. But many reacted in ways that were themselves unjust. So far, we have not seem large-scale rioting in LA. Hopefully, it can be prevented. We must oppose ICE lawlessness and injustice without harming innocent people ourselves.”
“When law enforcement agencies themselves engage in systematic lawlessness, they are not entitled to the deference and cooperation they might otherwise expect from civilians. The latter have a right to resist in ways that would otherwise be illegal and unjustified.”
Somin goes on to say ICE is lawless. In fact, he simply has different policy preferences. Not everything wrong is unconstitutional.
And then says “None of this suggests that protestors are entitled to do whatever they want. Rioting and other violence that harms innocent people is still both illegal and wrong.”
Jeezo-Beezo Queenie, haven’t seen you this hot & bothered since Pee Wee Herman died.
Pee Wee Herman was a made up character Paul Reubens performed, like how Frank Fakeman is a character some sad weirdo performs here.
“An unfortunate incident caused by malicious, reckless, or foolish behavior by one or a few individuals on either side could lead to broader violence, or be used as an excuse for more extensive military intervention.” I support your appeal to the protesters to not escalate, if for no other reason than it would be bad tactics. (Recognizing that there is no such entity as “the protesters” making tactical plans.) If the escalation is driven by the government side, it will likely be a matter of carrying out orders.
Ummm, did you see: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gs6lGcHXUAAzeGW?format=jpg&name=small
Ummm, did you see: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gs6lGcHXUAAzeGW?format=jpg&name=small
I see a fuckload of cops and a bunch of smoke from off camera.
Oh no, and a GUY WITH A MEXICAN FLAG!
I hope that guy gets deported to Mexico.
nah, really fuck his shit up and send him to Atlanta
“10 U.S. Code § 12406
Whenever
(1) the United States, or any of the Commonwealths or possessions, is invaded or is in danger of invasion by a foreign nation;
(2) there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States; or
(3) the President is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States;
the President may call into Federal service members and units of the National Guard of any State in such numbers as he considers necessary to repel the invasion, suppress the rebellion, or execute those laws. Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors of the States or, in the case of the District of Columbia, through the commanding general of the National Guard of the District of Columbia.”
What Trump is doing is illegal for at least three reasons.
1) The LAPD is more than capable of handling the protesters, so part 3 is not satisfied. There is no invasion or rebellion.
2) The law says the orders must be issues through the governors of the state. Trump is not doing that.
3) The Posse Comitatus Act forbids this.
What Trump is doing is highly dangerous to the US as a free country. This is what fascists do, not leaders of free countries.
I suspect that Trump won’t be using the troops to directly detain migrants.
Because I think the troops would refuse.
You don’t know many people in the National Guard, do you?
Because they’d rather give them a 5.56 Lobotomy
LAPD may be capable, but it is not doing the job. The law does not say that the governors have to agree. The Posse Comitatus Act does not apply.
Technically, Roger, it does say that the Governor has to not act in that (a) Newsom could have called up the very same Guard units on Friday and (b) he can ask other governors for help.
Then Ma Governor Calvin Cooledge did that with the Boston Police Strike — he asked (and got) the VERMONT National Guard to put down the related rioting and lawlessness.
He was from Vermont but I don’t know why he went with the VT Guard.
Molly, maybe you are ignorant of the President’s powers to Federalize the State Militia (Lincoln fought the Civil War that way) but how can you quote the Insurrection Act without realizing you are?
“there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States”
Merely declaring California to be a “Sanctuary City” meets this critieria — preventing the enforcement of immigration laws constitutes “rebellion against the authority of the US govt.”
As to the LAPD, were it able to suppress the rioters to the point where ICE could make all the arrests it wants to, then you would have a point. Otherwise, no.
The law says that the Governors have control of their guard UNLESS the President Federalizes them.
Ever hear of Olde Miss in 1962? JFK Federalized 30,000 troops, mostly Mississippi National Guard — so James Meridith could enroll even though the state governor said Blacks couldn’t.
There are two other times it happened as well — and like then, it is quite clear now that the CA Gov won’t issue the needed orders.
18 U.S. Code § 2383 is the insurrection act.
Trump hasn’t invoked it, and MollyGodiva didn’t quote it.
I’m going to preemptively mute you since you’re gonna get real cringe real fast.
Distinctions without differences, Gaslighto.
lol, that’s one way to respond to someone pointing out you were flat wrong!
“Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors of the States”
This is clear that the orders must go through the governors.
A picture tells a thousand words:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gs6lGcHXUAAzeGW?format=jpg&name=small
1: How is that not a war zone?
2: How is that not a combatant flying the flag of a foreign power?
Hence, how is this not an “invasion” as defined under international law? Property is being destroyed, and people are at risk of life & limb. (We won’t even get into the air pollution…)
Because it doesn’t fit the definition of invasion?
Would you rather be in a collision or an explosion?
To all of you coming on here to parrot Steven Miller: you are on the wrong side of history. I pray you live long enough to see the error of your ways, but mark my words: you may cheer these developments but eventually it is coming for you or someone you care about. The shortsighted vindictiveness of so many here is stunning. It is not too late to turn away but time is running short.
Yes, eventually the sort of people who riot when they don’t get their way will come for me and mine. So I’m cool with sicing the National Guard on them before it comes to that.
Anticipatory use of state force is totally a move the good guys pull.
It’s true. Squads are assigned to patrol high-crime areas to prevent crime. Security is increased when Messi plays to prevent fans rushing the field. Clubs hire a second bouncer on the weekends.
Good guys make sure they have the force necessary to deal with trouble before it starts.
You talked about upping presence.
Brett is talking about upping *use of force*.
“cool with sicing the National Guard”
You are using the language of violent oppression. You have a foreign born spouse. Get a grip. Steven Miller is abominable— hitch your wagon to him at your own eternal risk. This is an obviously engineered excuse to justify further actions coming. I will not forget you have said this.
I have a wife who came here entirely legally, got naturalized, has never so much as been ticketed. She’s not in any danger.
Except maybe from the sort of people who riot when they don’t get their way.
“here entirely legally, got naturalized, has never so much as been ticketed”
Im going to type this very slowly because I want you to think really carefully before you reply:
Why would you think Steven miller gives a flying fuck about any of that? And ohbytheway— why do you think he would give a fuck about deporting your kid(s) along with your wife? Like point to one single thing that would indicate that he would have any compunction. Because I have a lot of counter-examples for you.
The level of self-deluded “oh it can’t happen to me” is off the charts and kind of sad, honestly.
WAKE UP. They are coming for people you care about. Like I said— I hope you live long enough to see this is folly. But you are going to answer for what you’ve done to this country, I promise. Ten-fold for Miller and his stupid face.
Still pining to be oppressed I see. Unfortunately for you, if these people “get their way” the only way they’ll “come for you” is by being one of the CNAs that assists with your health care when you’re in your late 90s.
Don’t worry, Brett. The J6 rioters aren’t going to come for you.
Truth.
Their grandchildren will despise them, if their children don’t already.
“Eventually”?? I had friends killed on October 7th.
“Eventually”?? I had friends killed on October 7th.
Fake persons have only fake friends.
So what? I had friends killed on 9/11. It didn’t turn me into an authoritarian parody account parroting Steven miller: one of the most transparently manipulative scumbag dipshit decaf Pinochets on the face of the planet.
” in response to protests”
Sorry, buddy: The moment they start setting stuff on fire, it’s a riot, not a “protest”.
Whoever set the car on fire should certainly be arrested and charged with arson.
The people just standing around and taking pictures don’t seem to be doing anything illegal. I see no one obstructing the firefighters, for example.
Calm your rage.
Yeah, that’s the usual trick: Get a mob together, wear masks so you can’t be told apart. Some commit crimes, others get in the way of identifying and apprehending them.
I have been to plenty of peaceful protests. If people set out to protest peacefully, that’s what happens. Reliably, that’s what happens.
Riots are not nearly as spontaneous as they’re made out to be. These events turn into riots because people went intending to riot.
Brett is reasoning his way around to collective guilt.
Riots are not nearly as spontaneous as they’re made out to be. These events turn into riots because people went intending to riot.
I don’t usually agree with Brett, but he has a point here. The Jan 6th “riot” clearly happened because people went intending to riot.
And in the current situation in LA, it appears that the people who are there with the intention of instigating a riot are not necessarily the same people who are protesting ICE. I’ll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine who is there to instigate a riot.
America is a weird country where the use of the military domestically doesn’t alarm me in the way it would in another country. Our military is highly trained and competent compared to American law enforcement. And they don’t exactly have personalist loyalty to Trump or Hegseth (who probably haven’t done the groundwork to inspire that in such a short time). They’re probably less likely to unnecessarily use force against civilians or obey illegal orders to do such a thing.
I’d be much more concerned if Trump started ordering ICE, border patrol, or BOP officers to engage in more generalized law enforcement or riot control activity. Or tried to give military equipment to federal law enforcement, especially the above mentioned agencies. Or tried to commandeer local police.
“ ICE, border patrol, or BOP officers to engage in more generalized law enforcement or riot control activity”
One need only look at the way funding is allocated in the big beautiful bill (side note: Oy vey) to suspect that this is coming very soon
Good!
“President Lyndon B. Johnson, in 1965, was the last commander in chief to federalize a state’s National Guard without the governor’s OK. In that instance, the troops were deployed to protect civil rights protesters in Alabama.”
Guess that was OK.
When will the first lawsuit be filed to counter Trumps order?
When will the first TRO be issued.
Where is Liz Holzman when we need her?
“However things turn out, it’s important to emphasize that the anti-ICE protests and resulting confrontations are in large part a result of federal immigration enforcers’ own lawless behavior. Under Trump, ICE has routinely engaged in such illegal and arbitrary practices”
“When law enforcement agencies themselves engage in systematic lawlessness, they are not entitled to the deference and cooperation they might otherwise expect from civilians. The latter have a right to resist in ways that would otherwise be illegal and unjustified.”
Really? That’s what you’re going with?
Yes, that is where Somin tries to justify rioting and illegal violence against law enforcement. This goes beyond what he has said before. Maybe he is daring the Trump administration to deport him back to his home country.
You are lying again or you cannot read because Somin condemns rioting several times explicitly contrasting it with whatever resistance he is talking about in your quote.
If you’re lying about something so obviously demonstrable that’s incredibly stupid and/or likely mentally ill. If you can’t read you should be more hesitant in commenting on people’s writing.
Somin says “the latter have a right to resist in ways that would otherwise be illegal and unjustified.””
A “right” to “resist” in ways that would be “illegal”.
What “illegal” methods is Somin talking about exactly here? Seems he’s skirting a line with the riots going on. Maybe blocking a highway is OK?
Somin only draws the line at “violence that harms innocent people”. The post implies that everything else is okay with him.
Truth is this. Calling in the Guard is the right move.
If there are violent protests, overwhelming displays of strength keep people safe. When the protestors can outnumber and overwhelm the cops…that’s when things get deadly. By having the numbers necessary (by calling in the Guard), the protests can be kept in check, safe, and legal.
But if you want violence, riots, and more…don’t call in the Guard. Keep the police limited in manpower.
And get a law professor to publicly encourage the violence and riots.
You must be oddly talking about someone else because as has been pointed out here to you several times Somin condemns rioting, looting, violations of property, etc., in his post here.
Somin only criticizes the rioting, looting, and violence that harms people that he considers to be innocent.
Just came by to remind everyone again that her skirt was too short. She deserved it.
Thunderstorm warnings all day today and tomorrow so I spent more time than usual vegigng out watching the tube. Shades of a CNN reporter describing ‘mostly peaceful protest’ with fires burning in the background. Lots of vids of Interstate being blocked by hundreds of protesters/rioters/whatever on an overpass and throwing everything but the kitchen sink on LEOs and their cars. Just finished watching the LA police ‘s presser and his flunky saying as a result three peeps have been arrested. At least a dozen cars have been destroyed and who knows how many more.
It will be interesting to see how the numbers shake out. No question way more than three peeps committed obvious felonies, not to mention hundreds of jay walking citations. Same goes for what might be termed ICE violations. No question ICE probably played fast and loose but the real question is was this the exception or the rule. Problem for guys like Ilya is ads for Team Trump write themselves using vids from today while the anecdotal stories of ICE transgressions don’t really have vids to back them up for the most part.