The Volokh Conspiracy
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Texas Legislature Bans LGBT Student Clubs in K-12 Schools, Violating the Constitution and Federal Law
Signaling legislative contempt, one sponsor called the student groups "sex clubs." But in targeting the content of student speech the bill probably infringes First Amendment free speech rights and tramples the Equal Access Act of 1984
On Saturday, the Texas legislature gave final approval to Senate Bill 12, an expansion of Texas' anti-DEI policy for public and charter schools that supporters have hailed as a "Bill of Parental Rights."
Among many controversial provisions, the bill contains an especially legally dubious one that categorically bans certain student clubs that legislators disapprove. After noting that a public or charter school may in general "authorize or sponsor" student groups, S.B. 12 carves out a solitary exception: "A school district or open-enrollment charter school may not authorize or sponsor a student club based on sexual orientation or gender identity." Sec. 33.0815(b).
The bill's chief sponsor initially likened these LGBT student groups to "sex clubs," but later apologized for that characterization. Both supporters and critics of the bill interpret the provision to prohibit student clubs that focus on the subject matter of sexual orientation or gender identity (SOGI), rather than as barring clubs whose membership is confined to students of a certain sexual orientation or gender identity. By state law, as applied, only those student groups focusing on SOGI issues could never be "authorized." Presumably, they would be prohibited from meeting on school premises, as approved student groups may do.
If this interpretation is correct, S.B. 12 likely infringes the constitutional free speech rights of students and violates federal law if applied to exclude students groups devoted the subject of SOGI.. Let's consider each of these in turn.
(1) S.B. 12 and the First Amendment
By allowing schools generally to authorize and sponsor student clubs, the legislature is allowing schools to create what's known as a limited public forum. Under that First Amendment doctrine, if a school allows student groups, it cannot discriminate on the basis of the content of the group's speech unless the restriction is narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest. That's true even if that content is opposed on moral or religious grounds by administrators, other students, some parents, the local community, or legislators.
As applied, S.B. 12 would discriminate on the basis of subject matter--the subjects of sexual orientation and gender identity--addressed by student groups. It singles them out for disfavored treatment. Texas has not identified a compelling interest in forbidding student discussion of homosexuality or transgender issues. Legislator opposition to discussion of SOGI or student advocacy of equal rights is not a compelling interest. Nor is legislators' desire to keep students in the dark about SOGI, or to keep gay and transgender students in the closet. Even if these interests were compelling, Texas would have a difficult time showing how a total ban on LGBT student groups narrowly serves them.
Elsewhere, in a section of the bill prohibiting "instruction, guidance, activities, or programming" regarding sexual orientation and gender identity, the bill cautions that the section "may not be construed to limit a student's ability to engage in speech or expressive conduct protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution or by Section 8, Article I, Texas Constitution," provided the speech "does not result in material disruption to school activities." Sec. 28.0043(b)(1).
But this constitutional avoidance provision does not save the constitutionality of the ban on LGBT student clubs. First, it applies only to the section prohibiting SOGI instruction, not to the one banning student clubs. Second, as applied, the student club ban would prohibit what the Constitution requires in a limited public forum: equal treatment based on the content of the group's speech. There's no saving construction plausibly available here.
(2) S.B. 12 and the Equal Access Act
Beyond the First Amendment, S.B. 12 appears to violate the Equal Access Act of 1984. That federal law provides:
It shall be unlawful for any public secondary school which receives Federal financial assistance and which has a limited open forum to deny equal access or a fair opportunity to, or discriminate against any students who wish to conduct a meeting within that limited open forum on the basis of the religious, political, philosophical, or other content of the speech at such meetings.
20 U.S,. Code Sec. 4071. Under the law, the school creates a limited open forum "whenever such school grants an offering to or opportunity for one or more noncurriculum related student groups to meet on school premises during noninstructional time." If even one noncurricular student group is permitted to meet, all such student groups must be treated equally.
Congress passed the Equal Access Act at the urging of conservatives who quite rightly wanted religious student groups to be able to meet on public school grounds just as other groups could. But the law was quickly and successfully used by student gay-straight alliances to challenge bans on gay student groups. In Texas, despite deep hostility, these groups have flourished in middle schools and high schools for decades.
S.B. 12 mandates the very unequal treatment this hostility could not achieve. It would deny access based on the "religious, political, philosophical, or other content of the speech" by LGBT student groups.
(3) Alternatives for state regulation of student activities
States may, of course, address disruptive student behavior and even some problematic student speech on campus through means that violate neither the Constitution nor federal law.
States may prohibit student conduct (sexual or otherwise) on campus that is illegal or inappropriate. But that is not what S.B. 12 does. As applied to exclude LGBT student groups, it targets their speech.
States may also prohibit student speech (a) that is constitutionally unprotected (like obscenity or threats) or (b) that is reasonably forecast to cause material disruption to the school's educational mission. Student discussion of homosexuality and gender dysphoria, and advocacy of equality for gay and transgender people, are fully protected by the First Amendment. Yet S.B. 12 makes no effort to tie its categorical discrimination against student clubs discussing SOGI to any acknowledged limitation on student speech.
Schools may also impose reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions on student speech that are content neutral and don't discriminate among student clubs. A school could require that student groups meet only at certain noninstructional hours of the school day or in certain classrooms on campus, for example. But again, S.B. 12 is not such a restriction. LGBT student groups, and they alone, are forbidden at all times and all places within the school.
For more than 50 years now, courts have repeatedly affirmed the right of LGBT student clubs to meet on campus and to be treated equally with other student led groups. By giving its approval to S.B. 12, the Texas legislature failed its legal and constitutional obligation to uphold their rights.
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There was just a decision recently that a student's wearing of a T-shirt that said "There are only two genders" was not protected by the First Amendment. So which is it? Or does the First Amendment only protect favored opinions?
My understanding was the school got to pick and choose because one opinion was "popular" and the other was "disruptive". So yes, it only protects favored speech. Quite the flip from the founding idea that popular opinion did not need government protection.
That was upheld under the "reasonably forecast to cause material disruption to the school's educational mission" K-12 exception (the same applied to displaying either the Mexican or American flag on Cinco de Mayo). And no, Stupid Government Tricks is wrong. That determination cannot be based on the school liking or disliking the speech.
Look up the phrase "fig leaf." The "material disruption" standard is a convenient way to squelch disfavored opinions.
Elaborate further please. How does the "material disruption" standard enable the selective squelching of disfavored opinions.
Huh? I would think that would be nearly tautologically obvious; favored opinions will virtually never be held to be disruptive.
But that doesn’t mean that a disfavored opinion would be automatically accepted as disruptive. It would have to be adjudicated, correct?
"Adjudicated." Are you kidding? The school functionary makes the decision and that's it. And courts defer to it 99% of the time.
99%, eh? Your priors are showing.
So you are saying that it is, in fact, something subject to adjudication, but you don’t like the way that judges interpret the law?
This is the point and purpose of the judiciary. When the state says or does something indefensible, they are prevented from continuing to do it. That’s about as stripped-down a definition of the rule of law as there is.
You don't understand, or don't want to understand, what deferential review means. If the school official comes up with any explanation that is not completely insane, it will be rubber-stamped by the court. That's not adjudication in any but the most formalistic sense.
I see. That is definitely something that I don’t agree with. I feel like something that could infringe on equal treatment shouldn’t be rubber stamped. If you say that something justifies unequal treatment, I feel like that should actually be looked at.
So I agree, “disruptive” shouldn’t be allowed to just be slapped on something as a loophole by which disfavored viewpoints and opinions could be squelched.
What determines whether things are given deferential review or not?
Sorry, Bored Lawyer, I should have addressed that question to you. It was a real question.
What determines whether things are given deferential review or not?
By allowing the state where one group gets to kick up a fuss and the admin acts on their behalf with no punishments (see BLM, Free Palestine, LGBTQP+) while the other gets suspended for lesser objections (words on a shirt).
Or barking back at a Furry who is hissing at him.
"Cannot"? Good grief you are naive. It's a damned poor bureaucrat who can't think of how to get around weasel-worded regulations, which is pretty much all of them.
My suspicion is that if a student wanted to start a There Are Only Two Genders Club, he or she would probably be permitted to do so, at least in most districts. We already have them; they are called Christian Clubs or Republican Clubs or Conservative Clubs. Wearing a T-shirt is in your face in a way that the mere existence of a club is not. So yet another example of conservative what abouting where it's not even on point.
There is what I consider a weak argument that I don't find all that persuasive but I'll throw it out anyway for sake of discussion: The gay clubs exist to encourage people to coexist in peace and harmony with one another, including with people who are different. A Two Genders Only club would exist for the purpose of promoting divisiveness and hostility towards others who are different. And they are therefore not similarly situated in that promoting peace and harmony, especially in the schools, is a legitimate state interest, meaning the school would be justified in having gay clubs but not two genders only clubs.
I don't agree that wearing a shirt is more "in your face" than having a whole student club. A student club is a much larger and visible presence that some random individual wearing a shirt.
A student club meets when and where it meets, outside of class, and people who don't attend those meetings aren't ultimately exposed to it.
That's kind of optimistic. A lot of clubs include groups of kids, in class, discussing past and future events of the club. Especially the really big 'clubs' and 'extracurriculars', like marching band, sports, cheerleading....
My school used to specifically encourage cheerleaders and sports athletes to wear their uniforms to school on certain days. My classes included lots of side discussions about various students using free time at the end of class to prepare for this-or-that club event.
If the school officially has an LGBT club, there's going to be 'some' leakage. Could be anything from "Where your school club t-shirt day" to just making a rainbow-flag collage in the corner because you don't need help on the homework assignment and are already done with that.
Whether or not that 'significant' exposure is still a question, but there will always be 'some' exposure.
If the club is named the "There are Only Two Genders Club," then it would be equally "in your face" as a T-Shirt that had that slogan. But — as I just posted a few minutes ago — if the club had an innocuous name, then by definition things discussed in the club meetings would not be in your face because only people who chose to go to meetings would hear those things. Whereas everyone at school is exposed to the shirt.
Nah. If the club chose an innocuous name like say The Argon Club, then if it majored on discussing the fact that there are only two sexes, and if it became popular, then “Argon” would at that college acquire a “color” or “value” associated with the only two sex point of view. And so would become non-innocuous. Words do that.
That's ignoring the t-shirt question: why does the school get to decide which t-shirts are favored? It's the very definition of viewpoint discrimination.
Because of the heckler's veto, which everyone knows is only extended to hecklers the administration happens to agree with.
So could a school reasonably forecast that having a student club centered on sex or sexual orientation may cause material disruption to the educational mission? Or not?
Yes, they can.
Well, I assume Josh R will disagree.
To me, it seems obvious they could. But on the other hand, some judge can just as easily disagree and say it's not reasonable. Or just disagree with their educational mission.
As I recall, that T shirt opinion had a lot of mumbo jumbo about whether speech is "demeaning." And whether it is demeaning about about "deeply rooted characteristics" that involve the "core of your being" or something like that.
The point, for me, is the whole thing is just a lot of squishy mumbo jumbo, and this illustrates why the federal government probably shouldn't have anything to do with local schools. To be clear, that includes the federal judiciary and shows why the first amendment was never intended to be incorporated against the states and local school boards down to the point of setting school policies across the nation.
“ To me, it seems obvious they could.”
I don’t think that argument could be made. Disruption is actual interference with the operating of the school during the school day. Even saying that the speech itself is somehow “disruptive” ends up being an empty and pretextual claim.
“ Or just disagree with their educational mission.”
This seems unlikely, not a realistic assessment of what a judge might do.
“ To be clear, that includes the federal judiciary”
You think schools should be immune from judicial oversight?
“ the first amendment was never intended to be incorporated against the states”
This sounds like a broader complaint about human rights being protected by both the federal and state governments, where states can’t infringe on speech rights, for example, that all humans are endowed with. Without both levels states could (and history, especially recent history, shows they will) infringe on the most basic rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
If we don't impose the Constitution and the whims of federal judges on Canada, then Canada could infringe on the most basic rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
The states aren’t sovereign countries. Canada is.
You may have just set the new record for most transparently dishonest analogy.
I'm just saying, it is true that Canada can infringe on the most basic rights if we don't stop them. The same is true for Afghanistan. Maybe we should go teach them right from wrong?
It is not true that Canada can infringe on any rights within the US. Why are you claiming otherwise?
The federal government is sometimes called upon to protect its citizens from having their rights infringed by a state government. A state government does NOT have the right to infringe on the rights, enumerated or not, laid out in the Constitution.
It is the fact that states do, in fact, try to infringe on those rights that is the most obvious and powerful justification for incorporation.
Rights supersede government. They are not given by government, they are possessed by all people, inalienable and inviolable without due process of law. That’s pretty basic stuff.
"Rights supersede government. They are not given by government, they are possessed by all people, inalienable and inviolable without due process of law. That’s pretty basic stuff."
Interesting that you believe in natural rights!
Regardless, don't you see that the idea of people having rights is a moral judgment?
Whether you think people "have" rights or "should have" rights (naturally, or given by government), either way it is a moral judgment.
“ Interesting that you believe in natural rights!”
If you didn’t realize that about me, you haven’t paid any attention. I have always been a believer (and vocally so) in natural rights.
“ Regardless, don't you see that the idea of people having rights is a moral judgment?”
No. In fact, it is the exact opposite. People being free to exercise their rights unless they interfere with someone else’s rights is completely morals-free. People can say or do many, many bad things that, in a morals-based system, would be illegal but in a rights-based system are perfectly fine.
Whether it’s chanting “Jews will not replace us” or calling a black person a monkey, things that are morally reprehensible, under a rights-based system, wouldn’t be illegal.
Right and wrong is unconnected to individual rights. Because what is considered right and what is considered wrong differs depending on the person.
There is no moral dimension to natural rights. They are not held or not based on any moral code. They cannot be diminished if you are “bad” or enhanced if you are “good”. Morality literally has no impact on rights.
“ Whether you think people "have" rights or "should have" rights (naturally, or given by government), either way it is a moral judgment.”
You seem to have a definition of “morals” that goes well beyond the determination of good and bad. Natural rights have no moral element. Natural rights aren’t good or bad. They just are.
What do you think “moral” means? It seems like you think you can point to something and say, “I like that” that it is moral. That isn’t the case. Perhaps that’s why you can’t grasp that rights and morality are completely unconnected. Whether the thing that you do with your rights is good or bad is irrelevant to whether or not you have the right to do it.
Said another way, rights are what you can do. Morality is whether or not what you choose to do is good or bad. But whether it is considered good or bad doesn’t affect the rights at all. With rights you can do good things or bad things. And that’s fine.
The best example is hate speech. That is a morals-based law.
A rights-based system says that saying something terrible and racist is not just fine, but should be defended even if you, personally, find it abhorrent. So hate speech is bad, but legal.
A morals-based system considers whether or not what is being said is good or bad. Hence, hate speech is illegal because it is terrible.
Do you see the difference?
This reads like an argument in favor of letting states segregate schools by race (again.)
How so?
That's a bit of a disingenuous argument given all the school activities and clubs that actively foster heterosexuality -- prom night being the most obvious. What is prom night except fostering a sexual orientation, in that case heterosexuality? You only care when someone else's sexual orientation gets a mention.
So if you're serious about being worried about disruptions caused by activities that center on sex and sexual orientation, I'm sure you'll be showing up at school board meetings to tell them to stop having proms. If, that is, that was your actual objection.
“ prom night being the most obvious”
I would argue that it is more about fostering couples over any other arrangement, since any school not populated by assholes allows same-sex couples to attend.
I think this is a very weak and unfounded accusation.
I would agree that by evolving to include same sex couples, prom night is no longer exclusively heterosexual. Though it's not that long ago that same sex couples were excluded from proms; see Fricke v Lynch, 491 F.Supp. 381 (D RI 1980). But it predominantly consists of heterosexual couples engaging in public displays of affection, dancing, and sneaking outside or into a car for some nookie. And no one noticed until same sex couples decided they wanted to go too.
And that's the broader point. Heterosexuals have always advertised their heterosexuality by wearing wedding rings, having family pictures on their work desks, getting married, holding hands in public, talking about their kids, talking about their dates. Society fostered and encouraged such behavior. And nobody cared until gay people started doing it too, at which point they were asked "Why do you have to do that in public?" To which the answer is "I suppose for the same reason you do."
So it's just ridiculous to make the claim that gay clubs are about sex and sexuality in some strange way that similar heterosexual institutions aren't. Do some gay students join them hoping to get laid? Probably. But so do lots of straight guys go to the prom.
“ But it predominantly consists of heterosexual couples engaging in public displays of affection, dancing, and sneaking outside or into a car for some nookie.”
That’s as credibly explained by the fact the humans are predominantly heterosexual.
“ And nobody cared until gay people started doing it too, at which point they were asked "Why do you have to do that in public?" To which the answer is "I suppose for the same reason you do."”
I agree. But that is the world as it was, not as it is. If there is some backward reactionary shithole part of America that still bans same-sex couples at prom, you would be justified in saying that proms “actively foster heterosexuality”. But aside from those few crappy places, most of America allows same-sex prom dates.
“ So it's just ridiculous to make the claim that gay clubs are about sex and sexuality in some strange way that similar heterosexual institutions aren't.”
I agree. But that’s because the bigots have lost on overt discrimination against homosexuals and have fallen back and reformed their defenses at “make it as onerous as possible for them to enjoy equal treatment and harass them constantly”.
There is a verge large grey animal in the room, and you’re treading in its poo.
Heterosexuals wear wedding rings to advertise that they’re “taken.” Why is that important ? Family pictures - why is that important ? Getting married - what’s that about ? Talking about their kids - duh !
Clue - same sex couples don’t have “their kids.” Never have, never will. Can’t.
Heterosexual couples in college are not advertising their heterosexuality, they’re advertising that they’re a mating pair. Or at least training for that role.
A same sex couple is never a mating pair.
And that is why “fostering” opposite sex couples in college is a rational activity. The next generation might arise from such fostering.
The next generation will never arise from fostering same sex couples.
The cultural voodoo about rings and weddings and family photos and all that is not about sex per se, it’s about reproduction.
Same sex rumpety pumpety is just fine as recreation. Like stamp collecting - do it if it turns you on. But from society’s point of view it is inconsequential. It does not need to be honored or respected or supported any more than stamp collecting.
But heterosexual rumpety pumpety and the circus of pair bonding rituals associated with it is consequential. Should it go out of fashion, so will we.
Wow! I thought this nonsense died when the public accepted same-sex marriage.
Sadly not Josh. Human reproduction is still ineluctably anisogamous. You need to send a memo on this to Mother Nature as she’s the gal responsible.
And because we have evolved large brains, human infants take a long time to mature, and so are very expensive. Hence the typical human pair bonding structure.
Word of the day - anisogamous
Indeed, it is sad that "marriage is only about procreation" is still advocated for. At least I take comfort in the knowledge that the vast majority have thrown the argument into the trash heap of history.
We are all destined for the trash heap of history.
But that history will only be read by the descendants of those who ventured a gamete in a partnership with one of the other kind.
The descendants of those who didn't attempt this venture .... will not be reading anything.
If your argument is that it's not really a marriage unless there are children, or at least the prospect of biological children, then we just disagree. (Are you unaware of all the gay couples raising children, either through adoption, or from prior relationships? And do those children not benefit from the security of having married parents too?)
It's not that long ago that marriage was about property. That you can no longer sell your daughter for five cows and three goats tells us everything we need to know about the fact that marriage has changed greatly since its first appearance. The Tenth Commandment -- Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife -- assumes that the wife is property; she gets lumped in with the animals and the servants, and there's no equivalent ban on coveting thy neighbor's husband. The raw misogyny drips from the page.
In this culture, at this time and place, marriage is about an emotional commitment, security, mutual love and affection. At least in theory; I've handled enough divorce cases -- all heterosexual, by the way -- to know that it doesn't always work that way in actual practice. When two men or two women have spent a lifetime building a home, maybe owning a business, caring for one another, building financial security, for you to make the claim that their relationship does not deserve honor or respect, and is analogous to stamp collecting, is beyond ridiculous.
Of course I’m aware that gay couples raise children. They just can’t make them.
Sometimes spinster sisters live together for life and love and care for each other. Fine. But why should I honor and respect them for doing so ? That’s their choice, fine - it’s a free country. Ditto stamp collecting.
So what? How is that relevant? If they're raising children, what difference does it make whose DNA the kids have?
If they're raising children, what difference does it make whose DNA the kids have?
Children do best - on average - when they're raised by their biological parents - and more so if those parents are married. (Copious research shows over many decades.) There are all sorts of inferior family structures that can be used for raising kids, including same sex couples, single parents, one parent plus a stepparent, grandmothers, uncles, foster parents. But the natural structure is best - which is hardly a surprise. Because evolution. If it turns out that the natural one is unavailable then sure we have to go to the least bad fallback in the circumstances. But a difference it does make.
But that's not really the point. The key step in raising children is making one in the first place. Else there is nothing to raise. If half the population decide to live in non reproductive partnerships, even if they're all ace child rearers, the next generation will be small.
Even if children do better being raised by their biological parents -- and I've done enough family law to have major reservations about that --- it doesn't mean that children being raised in less optimal conditions aren't entitled to the best situation they can get, which includes the security of their parents having a legally protected relationship.
And in fact, almost all sex is non-procreative, so the paltry number of same sex couples aren't going to move that needle. Let us suppose the average heterosexual male experiences two orgasms a week from age 20 to age 50. That's better than 3000 orgasms, but that doesn't mean he is going to have 3000 children (which is a good thing.) That being the case, the idea that making babies needs special protection by excluding gay couples from marriage is ridiculous.
The rate of child production is limited by the woman rather than the man.
If you imagine an average woman who is fertile from age 18 to 40, takes on average 6 months to get pregnant, is then pregnant for 9 months (we'll say she never has a miscarriage), then takes 6 months to get back to regular ovulation, that gives her time to give birth to 12 children. And let's say 6 die in childhood. Her husband is entirely faithful to her, so he is only having orgasms when she's ready to receive him.
If he's a twice a week chump, leaving out the week of the period he's having orgasms 6 times a month, in about 60% of the months between the age of 18 and 40. So that amounts to about 900 orgasms.
How many are reproductively hopeless though ? ie how many times does he orgasm when we can be sure that a baby will not result ? Hardly ever. Assuming him to be a 16th century peasant, not that up on modern biology, he's not going to know when the right moment in the month is. Any of the 6 orgasms a month might produce a baby as far as he's concerned. (And even with 21C knowledge, the average couple probably wouldn't be able to rule out more than 2 of those orgasms as non starters.) And while a pregnancy one month after a baby is born is unlikely, it's possible.
So I refute your math with my math. Most of this guy's copulations with his wife will be non-zero probability reproductive opportunities.
And there's a good chance that both he and his wife will be dead by 40.
Obviously a modern couple using contraception will produce a different answer. But the institutional evolution of marriage is an old fashioned thing. What has happened since 1960 is irrelevant to how it developed. It developed as a cultural expression of the biological logic of pair bonding to reproduce.
So you don't disagree with my main point that most sex is non-procreative and the paltry number of same sex couples therefore will not move the needle on that issue.
Let us suppose you own a business selling fancy fishing gear. You employ five telephone sales people. They make -on average - 10 sales calls per hour during an 8 hour working day.
Four of them call people who subscribe to fishing magazines. Their success rate is 2 sales a day. Therefore their hit rate is 1 call in 40. Most calls don’t result in a sale.
The fifth sales person calls people who subscribe to anti animal cruelty magazines. She never makes a sale. So a hit rate of 0 in 40.
Do you regard this difference in the approach of the four as against the one as trivial ? After all failing 40 times out of 40 is not that much higher a failure rate than 39 out of 40.
I would regard that as one of the worst analogies I've ever encountered. A fishing gear business has one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is to sell fishing gear. Marriage, on the other hand, has multiple purposes, of which children are one. You're trying to win the argument by imposing your presuppositions as axioms, and they're not. They're your presuppositions, which an increasingly smaller number of people agree with.
I'm refuting your argument that :
And in fact, almost all sex is non-procreative, so the paltry number of same sex couples aren't going to move that needle.
by showing you that "the needle" is moved by success, not failure. In an endeavor in which each try has a low chance of success, you will got a lot of failure. Hence the relevant statistic is not that the rates of failure for heterosexual and homosexual success are both high, but that the rate of success is, say, 2% for heterosexual sex and 0% for homosexual sex. The latter guarantees failure. The former guarantees success, given sufficient tries.
If you didn't want to talk about the relative rates of success and failure to procreate, between same and opposite sex encounters, maybe you shouldn't have raised it ?
Her point is that 99.99999% of sex is completely unconnected to procreation. It’s for fun, pure and simply for pleasure.
If it was about procreation, American couples would have sex 1.9 times in their lives.
And I’m saying she (and you) are mistaken.(And your numbers are silly.)
Heterosexual intercourse is reproductive most of the time, in that it involves a non zero probability of reproduction most of the time. Homosexual sex is always non reproductive. Not mostly, always.
You have introduced the notion of the participants intentions, which is of course irrelevant. There is a very large amount of sex going on in the animal kingdom and the intention to procreate doesn’t figure. It is Mama Evolution who converts the instinct to hump into a reproductive effect. Intention has nothing to do with whether sexual intercourse is procreative - as we can tell from all those folk wanting to have purely recreational sex using contraceptives to try to avoid procreating. And panicking if they forget. Same sex partners never panic that they forgot their contraceptives.
You are stuck on the fact that heterosexual sex usually fails to produce a baby. Which is true but irrelevant. Only heterosexual sex can succeed in producing a baby. It’s the non zero probability of success that makes the act inherently reproductive.
“ Heterosexual intercourse is reproductive most of the time, in that it involves a non zero probability of reproduction most of the time. Homosexual sex is always non reproductive. Not mostly, always”
By that logic every performance of a knife thrower is attempted murder because there is a non-zero chance that they will kill their assistant. Which shows what an idiot you are. Just because something can happen doesn’t mean that it’s only that thing.
You’re just trying to sneak the notion of “intent” back into the question, which as I say is irrelevant. I also doubt that you’re legally correct – you’re much more likely to face a charge of reckless endangerment or something like that, unless you actually succeed in killing someone. And under the legal standard, the degree of risk will affect whether you’re considered reckless. Biology has no such standard. A one in a thousand probability of intercourse causing pregnancy is still a non zero probability – and one which will actually give you a better than 50-50 chance of generating a pregnancy if you have 693 outings. The corresponding figures for homosexual couplings are of course a zero chance in infinite couplings.
Just because something can happen doesn’t mean that it’s only that thing.
You’re now trying to pretend that the baby is an incidental output, rather than the essence of the thing. Obviously, many things besides pregnancy can arise from sexual intercourse. A ricked back, an unpleasant STD, a complaint about the noise from the neighbors, a rape charge, a divorce, a good workout for the heart, a heart attack, messed up sheets and so on. But it is these things which are incidental. Sexual intercourse exists in the world because it evolved for reproduction. If it did not have that non zero probability of causing a pregnancy, it would not have evolved. The baby, or the “risk” of a baby, is not incidental. It’s inherent in the design. Ears, certainly, are quite useful for hanging your spectacles on - but it not what ears are "about."
Sexual intercourse is NOT a human cultural invention. It’s a biological invention, which we share with lots of animals that evolution has determined will use an internal fertilization method of reproduction. Most creatures that do it, do it because evolution has arranged that they receive a dopamine shot when the prospect appears and a serotonin shot when it is completed. They have no babymaking “intent.” And although humans have worked out the connection between the intercourse and the baby, that does not prevent lots of humans who very definitely want to avoid having a baby, nevertheless producing one.
That’s why sexual intercourse is “about” reproduction. And that fact is why humans built up various cultural norms and practices, like marriage, to deal with the output.
I'm cis-het, and have a vasectomy.
Should I be disallowed from marriage because I can't be part of a "mating pair"?
My partner is past menopause, and pretty darn unlikely to get pregnant even without the vasectomy. Should she be disallowed from marriage because she can't be part of a "mating pair"?
If either of us wears a wedding ring, is that false advertising because we're not a "mating pair"?
But I do help her raise her one kiddo (a teen), and she is backup parent to my two (who are pretty much out of the nest now, phew!).
So ... sorta like gay marraige, amirite?
Have you ever attended a wedding where either person was probably or definitely infertile (genetics, age, vasectomy, tubes tied or hysterectomy, cancer treatments, disability, whatever)? Or even one where the folks publicly state they're not planning to have kids?
If so, did you tell everyone at the ceremony that it's not a real wedding, and that society shouldn't recognize it or support it?
C'mon, don't be a coward. Compare all non-"mating pair" weddings to stamp collecting.
All non-reproductive pair bonds are inconsequential to society by definition. Like stamp collecting.
But in the days when the Bible was more widely believed than it is today, the finality of the menopause was subject to override from Above. Elderly dames had babies. Thus any heterosexual marriage was potentially capable of bearing fruit. Had God arranged any babies to result from homosexual activity - which seems unlikely as God seems to have been a bit homophoblic - then marriage would probably have grown up to include same sex marriage. But He didn't and it didn't.
So Judeo-Christian "marriage" is a human cultural form of pair bonding. And pair bonding is a reproductive structure. That marriage has some fuzzy non-reproductive edges is because it developed in earlier ages when God bent the apparent rules of biology.
But if we move beyond tradition, there's no good reason for society as a whole to "respect" any particular family structure - except the one that produces next year's society. The reproductive pair bond.
So if your mom or a sister decided to get remarried post-menopause, would you tell her it's just "like stamp collecting"?
That would be seriously pathetic. I hope it's not true.
OK, that's the central root of our disagreement. You think marriage is limited to those who benefit society. I think it should be for people who benefit from being married. And their happiness and security will have side benefits for society. Encouraging stable relationships of whatever kind encourages people to be responsible, to take care of each other, and to refrain from certain types of unhealthy behavior. Gay marriage therefore does benefit society, just not in the one manner you've chosen to harp on.
I hope you don't think I have an inveterate hatred for stamp-collecting.
And no I am not in the habit of telling my elderly relatives what I think about their life plans. If my sister decided to take up stamp collecting, I'd say "good for you" or "uh-huh." But here you get my opinions unadjusted for your sensitivities.
But if my daughter had told me at age 21 that she planned to have no children and was going to get her pipes blocked, I'd have tried to talk her out of it.
Me too. With the benefit of life experience! A gf and I broke up in our mid 20s because I wanted kids and she didn't (at the time); she later had 1 kid and adopted another in her late 30s - after getting tenure. People change.
That said ... I might disagree, but I'd still love and support my spawn. And not tell them their later marriage was societally worthless.
I respect social recognition of bonds that have real social impact. Which can be fertile 21 year olds, or infertile folks in their 60s. Or infertile het couples. Or gay couples that want to artificially inseminate, have a surrogate, or adopt. Some het married couples later learn they're infertile; that doesn't retroactively make the marriage just stamp collecting. Ultimately you're coming up with lame excuses to hide from your own prejudices.
But mainly I'm disappointed at your lack of empathy for real human beings who have real families, and want to raise them as best they can.
“ The cultural voodoo about rings and weddings and family photos and all that is not about sex per se, it’s about reproduction.”
No, it isn’t. People who can’t have kids are just as married as people who can. People who don’t want kids? Same. People who adopt? Same. Whether heterosexual or homosexual, reproduction is irrelevant to mating or “pairing off”. It is sometimes an element of marriage, but it isn’t the only (or even a particularly deterministic) aspect of marriage. Reproduction doesn’t make or break the definition of marriage.
There is no functional difference between a married heterosexual couple who can’t have kids and a married homosexual couple.
There is also no difference between a couple that have never married, but have kids, and a couple that are married and have kids. Same for people who were married, but aren’t any more. Same for people who married someone who already had a kid.
The trope about marriage and reproduction being connected at all is nonsense. Reproduction doesn’t require marriage. Marriage doesn’t require reproduction.
It is just one of the last bastions of homophobes who stupidly think they are making a valid point and hiding their hatred of gays.
You aren’t hiding anything.
The trope about marriage and reproduction being connected at all is nonsense. Reproduction doesn’t require marriage. Marriage doesn’t require reproduction.
Likewise the trope about golf clubs and golf. It is of course true that some people join golf clubs for the fresh air, some for the bar, some for the company they can chat to at the bar, some to get out of the house and away from the wife and kids, some to get a prestigious social membership on their CV, some to exercise their committee-man persona. There are loads of ancillary, incidental outgrowths of a golf club that aren't specifically about golf. You can be a member for years and never lift a club.
But no, the trope that golf clubs really are connected with golf is correct. Golf clubs are about golf.
People have sex for pleasure. Once in a great while it results in procreation, but mostly sex is for fun.
As noted above intention is irrelevant to what sex is “about.”
The dog does not hump the bitch with the intention of making puppies. He humps because he has an evolved instinct to hump.
The humping has a non zero probability of producing puppies (which is why the instinct evolved.)
Heterosexual sex is inherently procreative because that’s what it evolved to achieve and what it does achieve at a non zero probability.
The humping is procreative notwithstanding the fact that the dog is not thinking “I must get on and make some puppies.”
Lee Moore, I am sorry that you failed biology in high school, but reproductive coupling may or may not be related to marriage. Procreating results from the sexual union of a fertile female and a virile male. The parents may be married to one another. They may be unmarried. One or both may be married to someone other than the other parent.
Gametes don't ask about their progenitors' marital status before combining to form zygotes.
Suppose you and your opposite sex spouse are happily settled in your home. Next door on one side is an unmarried lesbian couple. Next door on the other side is an unmarried, opposite sex couple. Across the street are two men, married to one another.
Does the sexual orientation and/or marital status of any of the other three couples make it more or less likely that you and your spouse will fuck each other? Does it make you more or less likely to use birth control when you do? Does it make you more or less likely to abort any pregnancy which may result?
Think about it.
Glad you asked.
Apart from your first 13 words, your first two paragraphs are fine - but incomplete. And that is because although zygote formation is essential, and absolutely requires one of each gamete type, the task of completing the reproductive effort so that the zygote develops into a reproductive mature specimen is very hard work (for humans - much less so for fish in the sea.)
Humans are typically pair bonders (though also cheaters* like other pair bonders) because human babies are so expensive. Thus up until recently the child of a single mother was much more likely to die as an infant than the child of a couple. Because hubby brings home the bacon, protects you and your child from bears, and so on.
Hence human females are evolved to prefer sex within a relationship that has a good promise of resources and protection. While males are evolved to be reluctant to provide resources unless they're confident that the wee bairn is theirs.
From these two somewhat different biological perspectives we have developed cultural norms whereby females seek and often get an enforceable (by society) promise of resources etc; while males get a somewhat enforceable right to insist on their mate's chastity. It may be cultural but it's driven by biology - the very expensive baby.
So married couples are more likely to reproduce successfully - beyond the zygote stage - than unmarried couples because of the need for commitment to raise that expensive baby or three.
*The cheating is asymmetrical. Human males, like any pair bonding males, are happy to go for any opportunity for a casual liaison because the risk is small (but watch out for STDs and well armed husbands) and the reward is large. An extra baby for no resources. Women cheat more carefully on the whole because they don't want to cut off their access to their existing resource supplier. They're looking for either a better resource supplier or a better set of genes.
Wait, so now it's "better odds of raising a kid" based on commitment within the couple? But ... does gay commitment count or not when it comes to child welfare? Serious moving goalposts, mang.
Starting to sound like self-justifying, "straight outta your butt" sociological just-so stories.
Would you support a committed & married lesbian couple, on the assumption that one (or both!) could go to a sperm bank, or cheat, or even get raped, and so eventually get knocked up?
Heck they might well be better parents from the "successfully raise a kid" perspective than a violent philandering male.
How could you possibly object to society supporting such a pro-child familial union?
"Humans are typically pair bonders because human babies are so expensive." That's an argument for having households with *at least* two adults but not necessarily more. The more adults there are in the household, the more people are there to help raise the kids. And bring in income. There's no reason four or five adults couldn't pool their resources and start a household. There would then be plenty of people to spread the expense around.
There are societies where the conditions of life are sufficiently harsh that the typical family structure is polyandry - ie one gal to a few guys.
But more usually one reasonably competent man is sufficient to provide the necessary resources. (Incompetent men not so much - which is why women prefer competent ones.)
The problem with polyandry is that it is not a viable evolutionary strategy for a male to commit resources to raising other peoples children. (Polyandry is often practised in fraternal groups - ie three brothers and one gal - an obvious way to try to tie in the spare males commitment. Like lions - if two males take over a pride, they're usually brothers.)
So in an environment with adequate available resources one guy one gal achieves the necessary two fer - enough resources for mother and baby; and enough confidence in paternity for the male to commit.
There's also polygyny - one guy, more than one gal - but that obviously requires a minority of guys with exceptional access to resources. And many guys getting no offspring.
DNA data suggests that each of us have roughly half as many male ancestors as we have female ancestors, indicating much more variability in male reproductive success than in female. So we're not pure pair bonders by any means.
I've thought about your last two paragraphs and I don't see the point of them, to be honest.
We seem to have four couples, two of which may produce children and two of which won't, unless there's a bit of off-pisteing. Hence at 2.4 children per heterosexual couple, the next generation will be 4.8 people as compared to the current 8. I can see why Greta might like a society set up like that but I don't see why I should.
And as noted elsewhere, although the unmarried couple may or may not have 2.4 children, they are - on average - more likely to be problem children than mine. Because marriage - representing a longer term commitment than lack of marriage - is better for children. So if you want me to rush round to my neighbors and affirm my honor and respect for their family structure, and declare it equal in value to society to my own, well, I'm gonna have to pass on that one.
But since this is obvious to the meanest understanding, I'm guessing you had some other point to make. What was it ?
So your whackadoodle gender determinism aside, now you've moved the goalposts to posit that it's about kiddo survival. So:
A woman is married. She cheats*, gets pregnant.
The married couple raise a kid; it is the genetic spawn of the mom but not mom's partner. They're married, so mom's partner improves kiddos's survival odds because pooled resources. Family! It's awesome!
Exactly how does it matter if "partner" is male, female, or infertile for [insert reason]?
*where "cheating" could include a sperm bank, with partner's full participation. It's the 2000s, not the dark ages. Though I did know of someone who got preggers with a turkey baster using *gasp* "donations" from gay males in the pre-2000 dark ages. Her partner was ... well, all-in on the deal.
Up next: should a kiddo be denied adoption by two married & committed male parents, if those two committed male parents increase the kiddo's odds of survival? Weird if self-proclaimed "pro-life" folks would want to lower actual survival rates...
My point is that one couple's potential (or lack of potential) to reproduce has nothing whatsoever to do with whether another couple does or does not reproduce.
If you will indulge me a personal anecdote, I am divorced once, widowed once, and currently married for the last 15 years. Only one of these marital unions has produced offspring. That doesn't mean that the other two were something other than marriage.
They're married, so mom's partner improves kiddos's survival odds because pooled resources. Family! It's awesome!
No that was the other comment about there being more to human reproduction than zygote production. Which there is. In the comment you're replying to I just said "more likely to be problem children."
Also not "pooled resources" - it's almost invariably a transfer of resourcesin one direction, from small gaete partner to big gamete partner. For obvious biological reasons.
Exactly how does it matter if "partner" is male, female, or infertile for [insert reason]?
1. "male" - If the partner is male and knows he's not the father then on average the child will do worse than if he was the father. I'm afraid I don't know what the stats are for unknowing cuckolded "fathers" - but I'd guess that such "fathers" are as good as biological fathers unless and until they find out the truth.
2. "female" - both the partner and the child (soon enough) will know that they're not related. Sometimes they'll still have a great relationship. Again I've not seen statistics on female "stepfathers" , but the evidence for male stepfathers is not encouraging. Obviously the child will lack a male model, within the home.
3. "infertile" - assuming the infertility does not damage the relationship between the adults I can't see why it would make any difference to the child - except to the extent that it affects how many siblings are produced. Obviously a bigger deal for the non existent siblings.
should a kiddo be denied adoption by two married & committed male parents, if those two committed male parents increase the kiddo's odds of survival?
If they're the best that is available, no.
not guilty : My point is that one couple's potential (or lack of potential) to reproduce has nothing whatsoever to do with whether another couple does or does not reproduce.
Who said it did ?
The point to which you are ultimately attempting a reply is whether society ought to honor and respect non-reproductive relationships as of equal value to (potentially) reproductive relationships.
The latter are obviously more valuable to society - society will die without them, but will not die without the other relationships.
Your point seems to be a second or third order notion as to whether the non-reproductive nature of some relationships could affect the reproductive output of the potentially reproductive relationships. If gay marriage by 10% of the population somehow increased the reproductive output of the other 90% by 15% then, sure, maybe we should be valuing gay marriage. But I am unaware of any research to this effect.
And if - as I think you are arguing - there is no such effect then we're back to square one. There's an obvious and vital reason for society to value reproductive relationships, and no corresponding obvious or vital reason for society to value non-reproductive relationships. Whether the participants themselves value their relationships is their private business.
Thank you for that grudging admission of basic humanity. We might disagree, but you're not totally reprehensible.
So, the marriage of those folks who are loving, committed, and responsible for their adopted kiddo ... is totally without societal merit? The marriage should not be acknowledged? It deserves no support or recognition?
As the old W.Churchill joke goes, you've already admitted the facts, and now we're just haggling about the price.
I think you're struggling with the meaning of "if that's the best that is available."
If a drug addled penguin is the best that is available to look after a human child, then it's the best available. This tautology doesn't imply that drug addled penguins have societal merit. To the contrary, I think we should encourage penguins to stay off drugs, and if we have a human child that has no parents and needs looking after, we should look desperately for better options than penguins.
FFS, you're not even using the word "tautology" correctly.
You're flatly stating that a loving, caring, committed couple are or are not good parents because they're hetero or homo. You've waffled between "must be M+F" and "best support for the kiddo" even in this very comment thread. You can't make a coherent argument, because all you have is your personal "oh noes teh gay!!1!" bias. There's no attempt at philosophical coherence.
Weak, sad, lame.
I’m not offering “philosophy” I’m offering biology.
It turns out to be correct that you can’t make a baby human without an M and an F.
It also turns out to be correct that if you don’t offer that baby some care post zygote formation, it won’t survive and thrive.
For the first 9 months that care has to be provided by an F. Thereafter the care can be provided by a variety of potential carers.
Research into how children do in different family structures shows very clearly that the actual parents do best, especially when married. On average. Such a family structure should therefore be preferred.
It is therefore illogical to regard all family structures as equally valuable to society. They’re not.
Why should couples be worth fostering ? Why not trios or quads or dozens ?
What’s so special about couples that colleges should foster them ?
I agree. As long as it is consenting adults, why should anyone care if you want to play Snow White to the Seven Dwarves?
Why couples rather than larger sets is an interesting sociological question, but it's not a legal question unless and until someone turns it into one. Some societies have been polygamous; some still are; just not this one. There probably is some historical reason why this one elected to go with couples. But it's not relevant to the legal issues here.
Ha ha ha !
Yes there’s probably some reason. But I’m not sure the history department is the first place to ask.
That's why I said sociology, not history. I see you read about as well as you reason.
There probably is some historical reason why this one elected to go with couples.
Sociology requires history. She did say “ an interesting sociological question” in her first sentence. Intelligent people would recognize that as the lens through which she was suggesting the question be examined.
Any school or government body not populated by assholes. FTFY.
It is still at thing that schools, administrators, and/or government officials will ban or attempt to frustrate attempts by LGBT couples to attend proms. A quick Google search found plenty of examples within the last 5 years. (And I was discounting private religious schools.) A common tactic is to enforce strict, gender-specific dress codes and treat same-sex PDAs differently than opposite-sex PDAs during the event if outright bans aren't politically viable.
Republican opinions on same-sex relationships have reversed course recently with all the Christian Nationalist political rhetoric which is leading to more friction on this issue.
Remember that sexual orientation includes an "all women are hos" and gender identity includes "normal." I can see either club being quite disruptive.
Misogyny is a sexual orientation?
FFS, that's the stupidest thing you've said in [checks watch] at least twelve hours.
Why couldn't the ""reasonably forecast to cause material disruption to the school's educational mission" " standard also apply in this case?
How would it *materially* disrupt a school’s educational mission? Giving bigots the vapors doesn’t rise to that level and the clubs are outside school hours.
"There was just a decision recently that a student's wearing of a T-shirt that said "There are only two genders" was not protected by the First Amendment."
Do you have a citation or link to that opinion, Bored Lawyer? There is no substitute for original source materials.
https://reason.com/2025/05/28/can-schools-ban-this-there-are-only-two-genders-shirt-supreme-court-declines-to-hear-free-speech-case/
Wow!
I almost forgot about that!
Here also is the Volokh post on the case.
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/05/27/justices-alito-and-thomas-dissent-from-courts-declining-to-hear-there-are-only-two-genders-school-t-shirt-case/
Here you go
Thank you, Josh.
I don't read the First Circuit opinion as indicating that student's wearing of a T-shirt that said "There are only two genders" was not protected by the First Amendment -- at least not in the sense that categories of expression such as "fighting words" (Chaplinsky
v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 (1942)), obscenity (Roth v. United States, (Roth v. United States, 354 U.S. 476 (1957)), and defamatory falsehoods (Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc. 418 U.S. 323 (1974)) are unprotected. The Court simply deferred to school officials' judgment as to whether and when the material-disruption limitation and rights-of-others limitation of Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969), should be applied.
A crappy decision, to be sure, but not a watershed in First Amendment law.
The student lost. Ergo 1A did not protect his expression. For if it did he would have won.
Your argument is that “yes Johnny I said you could have a cupcake but because you were rude to me you can’t have it” amounts to a case of Johnny being allowed to have a cupcake.
Whereas in fact it is a case of him not being allowed a cupcake.
Uh, no, that's not what being protected or not under the First Amendment means.
Obscene material is unprotected. Fighting words communicated face to face are unprotected. Defamatory falsehoods about private persons are unprotected. True threats are unprotected. Speech or expression integral to commission of a crime is unprotected. Incitement to violence which is intended and likely to provoke imminent unlawful action is unprotected. Pornography involving actual children is unprotected. A government employee's speech which is related to his job duties is unprotected. Fraudulent or misleading advertising may be unprotected. Some speech by members of the United States armed forces is unprotected.
OTOH, speech which is First Amendment protected may be subject to prohibition or regulation depending on particular circumstances. That does not divest that expression of protection.
In English, if what you say is "subject to prohibition or regulation depending on particular circumstances" and those circumstances obtain, then your speech is not protected by the First Amendment.
In Lawyerish the answer may be different.
Which reminds me of a joke whose punchline is "A good start."
If you think that "give me your money or I'll shoot you" is 1st Amd protected "speech" because you literally uttered those words out of your mouth ...
That's a you problem, not a lawyer problem.
Lee Moore, Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously said "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty said to Alice (in a rather scornful tone), “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
Lee Moore, try as you may, you are no Humpty Dumpty.
What "facts" are you claiming to deploy here ?
As for words and their meanings - here's Merriam-Webster on "protected" :
"to cover or shield from exposure, injury, damage or destruction"
"to maintain the status or integrity of especially through financial or legal guarantees"
It's difficult to see how not covering or shielding you, or not maintaining your status or integrity through legal guarantees falls within either of these meanings.
As best I can follow your insistence, you seem to be saying that the legal precedent defines "protected" here to mean "rebuttably presumptively protected." But that is not what "protected" means in ordinary English. Hence the need for "rebuttably " and "presumptively."
Carpenter and others want to protect the sexual grooming of Texas schoolchildren by sponsoring sex clubs.
The facts I am propounding are what the American judiciary has or has not recognized as being within the scope of expression protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution.
"First Amendment protected" is a term of art. Protection under the First Amendment is the rule; however, there are numerous Supreme Court decisions delineating unprotected categories of speech and expression. Intuition doesn't feed the bulldog.
As Justice Robert Jackson said of his brethren on SCOTUS, "We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final." Brown v. Allen, 344 U.S. 443, 540 (1953) (Jackson, J., concurring in result).
I thought one category of speech that is not protected is K-12 in-school student speech that is reasonably forecast to cause material disruption to the school's educational mission.
Josh : I thought one category of speech that is not protected is K-12 in-school student speech that is reasonably forecast to cause material disruption to the school's educational mission.
As best as I can understand it, not guilty is saying that that such K-12 in-school student speech is :
(a) "protected" (TM-TheLawyersGuild "term of art") but not actually
(b) "protected" (ordinary English)
ie such speech is bannable even though it is "protected" (TM TheLawyersGuild) etc.
It's one of those games-with-semantics things. Like "woman." Different strokes for different folks.
What not guilty fails to understand is that "a student club based on sexual orientation or gender identity" does not specify what either is.
Hence it is also banning a "Heterosexuals" club and an "As God Made Us" club -- either of which could legitimately call itself "Normal People" club.
Content neutrality might mean you can't have either, which might be a good thing.
Come on, you're better than this silly gotcha. The t-shirt case may have been poorly decided, but at least it's loosely based on the disruption standard that the Supreme Court has endorsed. There's no reasonable argument that banning clubs based on the things they discuss at their private meetings could ever satisfy that standard. (By "private" I don't mean that they're secret; I just mean that unlike a t-shirt to which every student is exposed, one must affirmatively choose to go to such a meeting.)
To quote a former president, C'mon man.
In one case, the court bought a flimsy excuse to squelch an opinion the school authorities did not like. You can come up with a similar flimsy excuse in this case, too. A recognized school club will be talked about by the kids, and can cause just as much disruption as a T-shirt.
As I told someone else on this thread, look up the meaning of "fig leaf." These distinctions are risible, and a cover for censorship.
“ There was just a decision recently that a student's wearing of a T-shirt that said "There are only two genders" was not protected by the First Amendment.”
I would agree with you that a shirt like that, as much as it clearly identifies the wearer as a raging asshole, shouldn’t be banned.
“ Or does the First Amendment only protect favored opinions?”
This is the crux of the issue, isn’t it? My belief is that disfavored speech needs to be strenuously and openly protected. Are Nazis and Black Hebrew Israelites and the Westboro Baptist Church all disgusting human beings? Yes.
That’s why it is vital that we defend their right to say disgusting things with their disgusting friends at disgusting rallies. There are very few exceptions to the right to free speech and neither “saying mean things” or “hurting my feelings” are it.
Considering how wokism has infiltrated so much else with institutional racism and multigenderism, I would not be the slightest bit surprised if these LGBTQWERTY clubs are just as bigoted as a KKK club would be. Black History Month and Pride Month are bigoted, by definition; White History Month and Straight Month wouldn't stand a chance. Universities have allowed Queers for Palestine and forbidden conservative and Jewish speakers.
I'm not going to lose any sleep over this bill. No doubt it will be struck down. The real question is why schools have any say in the matter. Students should be able to form any club they want, on their own. Schools should have nothing to do with them.
Banning LGBTQWERTY clubs is not libertarian. Neither is supporting them. Student clubs should be entirely independent of government, neither banned nor supported. That is the libertarian position.
“ Black History Month and Pride Month are bigoted, by definition”
So anything that focuses attention on something not white and straight is now bigoted? That’s an irrationally broad definition of “bigoted”.
“ Universities have allowed Queers for Palestine and forbidden conservative and Jewish speakers.”
So some unnamed universities may or may not have chosen to invite speakers you don’t like (and, by not choosing speakers you like, are automatically bigots) and others may or may not have chosen not to invite conservative and Jewish speakers (again, “proving” they are bigots), therefore your “side” is being discriminated against?
Why do you believe that universities can’t choose the speakers they want? Are you saying they have to invite white, straight, male, or Jewish speakers to be considered “unbigoted”? Because it sounds lime you think universities should be required to hire white, straight, male, or Jewish speakers whether they are worthwhile to listen to or not.
"I'm not going to lose any sleep over this bill." You should. It is scary that such a bigoted authoritarian bill got passes.
This is about gay bashers' desperate need for a disfavored group to hate on. Just like the seggers and kluckers in Jim Crow days.
Those folks dasn't admit that the sky in fact hasn't fallen in the more than two decades since Goodridge v. Dept. of Public Health, 798 N.E.2d 941 (Mass. 2003), and in the ten years since Obergefell v. Hodges, 576 U.S. 644 (2015), so what's a hater to do?
And all LGBTQWERTY are full of peace and love and would never ever discriminate against straights or demand litmus tests?
Guilt by association? If one gay person is an asshole, all of them are? Considering the Richard Spencers, Laura Loomers, and Steven Millers in MAGA world, that would make all Republicans bigoted assholes.
Perhaps you might make your accusations more specific to actual actions by individuals? Are there bigoted assholes in the LGBT world? Absolutely. There are bigoted assholes in every movement. That doesn’t tarnish the whole group.
Some might reasonably consider the recent transgender social hysteria as "the sky is falling".
Schools should be run by local school boards, not the federal government.
M L coming out (pun intended) against Brown vs. Board of Education!
School boards are run by local school boards, but like other government entities are still subject to the Constitution. A school board couldn't decide to force all Jewish students in the district to go to separate schools, and have it be okay just because the local school board made the decision.
Schools are run by school boards, except when they aren't.
Schools are run by the school boards unless the school board does something unconstitutional. Like requiring the posting of the 10 Commandments (70% of which are unconstitutional) or banning LGBT clubs.
It isn’t a binary between “able to do whatever they want” and “the federal government runs the school district”. Any rational human notices the vast gulf between the two where pretty much every single school district exists.
I know that sort of false and bad-faith argument is meat and potatoes to paleocons, but try to be a better person.
Yeah, I just think government in general should be more localized. So for example, if a school wants to allow gay sex clubs, they could do that as far as some federal judge or the Constitution is concerned. If a school wants to ban them, they can do that. If they want to ban a T shirt that says "there are only two genders" and deny basic 3rd grade science like a bunch of loons, that's up to them. Likewise at the state level, if the state wants to make some education policy or choose a curriculum, that's not the federal government's business.
Or better yet, just privatize education and get the government out of it, or maybe have vouchers, everyone chooses what they want and it works much better.
None of this has anything to do with whether those decisions are good or bad, of course. It just has to do with who makes the decision. Any humans, organization, or government entity can make bad decisions, whether you centralize decisions or not. And maybe sometimes, good and bad decisions i.e. morality is in the eye of the beholder so different locales can choose their own opinions.
I know authoritarians such as yourself disagree with this, you don't have to keep declaring it.
“ if a school wants to allow gay sex clubs”
No one is talking about allowing sex clubs, gay or otherwise.
“ Or better yet, just privatize education and get the government out of it, or maybe have vouchers, everyone chooses what they want and it works much better.”
I agree, although I think the line should be drawn at religious schools. I favor an absolute separation of Church and State. Thomas Jefferson was a master at packing a lot of good ideas into a phrase.
“ And maybe sometimes, good and bad decisions i.e. morality is in the eye of the beholder so different locales can choose their own opinions.”
Morality is always in the eye of the beholder. Morality is one of the most arbitrary “codes” there is, which is why it should never be the basis of laws or policy.
I believe that one of the prime purposes of the federal government is setting a floor for the protection of right that no state may slip below. Protecting rights is, and always will be, the most important task for a government. Having two levels looking out for the people is an excellent idea.
All law and policy is based on morality and nothing else. Right and wrong, good and bad, should and should not, important and not important, protecting and not protecting, rights or not rights. All moral issues.
“ All law and policy is based on morality and nothing else.“
Absolutely wrong. The Constitution discusses rights at length, but never mentions or references morality. That’s because a rights-based system is the best way to assure the rule of law and just treatment, while a morals-based system would assure the exact opposite to anyone whose moral code didn’t align with the State’s.
Morality is completely subjective and individual. The moral codes of any two people agree almost never, even when trying to form them from the same source (like the Bible, for example.
Not only are morals not the reason for laws, any law based solely on morality is a bad law. If you can’t find a broader rationale for a law than morality (like, for instance, universal human rights), the law will be as slippery as a greased pig and as malleable as clay.
Morality is subjective.
The idea that people have "rights" is itself a moral judgement.
As is the notion of justice and the rule of law.
It is not. You keep saying that, but it isn’t true. There is no moral element to rights. It is binary: you have them if you are a person, you don’t if you are not. As long as your rights aren’t infringed, whether the thing you are doing is right or wrong is irrelevant.
Justice does, in common thought, have a moral aspect in that it is viewed as being a “good” thing. But if justice is done, but the outcome is bad, that is still justice. So it isn’t, in fact, a moral thing. Whether justice was a good or bad thing in a particular case will depend on the morals of the person viewing it. Think about Brown v. Board, which was clearly justice. But the law it overturned was a morals-based, not a rights-based, law and the people who opposed it were using a morals-based arguments.
When morals and rights oppose each other, as often happens because morals are arbitrary, rights are the side with consistency and universality. Morals are feelings-based, culture-based, and often religious-based.
The rule of law is even less connected to morality. The idea is that the law applies equally to all, regardless of whether they are good or bad. It is an objective imperative that the laws be followed, even if those laws are “wrong”. If, in fact, a law violates someone’s rights, there is a process by which the laws can be changed. That is as morals-free as it gets. The rule of law isn’t a moral judgement, it is a process by which any conflict of rights is adjudicated.
There is the groomer mindset at work. "Morality ... should never be the basis of laws or policy."
Right? This guy is like, "There is no objective right and wrong, morality should never be the basis of law. And oh by the way, I want to impose my subjective views of right and wrong on everyone else. And you'll never guess what said views involve, you see I have strong opinions about the merits of exposing children to sexually explicit material...."
There is no objective morality.
Even your moral code differs from that of Roger S.
Almost all people agree on the big things like murder, rape, and pedophilia (except the Catholics. And the Amish. And the Mormons. Etc.), but the Devil is in the details. You very quickly start finding differences as you examine moral codes.
“ And oh by the way, I want to impose my subjective views of right and wrong on everyone else”
No, the exact opposite. Laws are what impose things. A morals-based legal system is the only one that will impose moral beliefs on others who don’t choose them. Your system is the only one that imposes morals on others.
The core of libertarianism is that, as long as you aren’t infringing on someone else’s rights, the State shouldn’t be involved.
I could care less what self-righteous code you choose to live by. I don’t care if you are a fundamentalist who flogs themselves daily to mortify their flesh or a hedonistic group-sex swinger who likes to smoke pot. What adults voluntarily consent to is none of my business. I can think whatever I want about people, but my rights end where their nose begins.
And, of course, you indulged in the most dishonest and fallacious argument of the lunatic fringe: that supporting a rights-based order and rejecting morality as a basis of law somehow means pedophilia is OK. Do you really think any honest person thinks that’s true?
Assuming morality is subjective, and also assuming you believe in self-government and think governments imposing views of morality on others should be minimized, doesn't that counsel in favor of more decentralization of government power? Let each community do their own thing according to their own beliefs. Live and let live. Do not create government superstructures that forcibly impose laws/moral judgments on vast arrays of diverse communities that don't share the same beliefs.
No, it’s the mindset of someone who doesn’t want to live under a legal system based on arbitrary concepts, individual interpretation, and differing priorities.
One book of “morals”, the Bible, has spawned thousands of different, often conflicting, moral codes.
There is no such thing as a universal moral codes.
We do have laws based on moral codes. Get used to it. Nobody knows any other way.
We don’t. We have a legal system based on rights.
Read the Constitution and tell me how many times it mentions rights and how many times it mentions morality.
The Constitution is the basis of our legal system. And it doesn’t give a toss about what you think is good or bad. It only cares about rights.
That is not relevant to this law. It would still be illegal.
I don't know.... I could see an argument that, say, Schools, and therefore the legislature in charge of schools, did have the power to ban all school clubs, at least for minors, which included any form of overly frank sexual discussion outside the context of legally mandated and teacher-supervised sex ed classes.
I wouldn't LIKE that argument, but I could see it. In the same vein as "Students can't watch porn on school computers", that's easy to turn into "minor students can't have clubs preparing for future careers in the porn industry", which might hypothetically turn into "No highly graphic details of sexual organs or sexual activities in school clubs, except as mandated by law and with teacher supervision, guidelines, and parental opt-outs."
But, if you DID take that policy approach, you would have to be even-handed about it.... You would likely also have to ban teen-pregnancy club, condom awareness club, heterosexual school gossip-about-sex-lives club, future-plastic-surgeons-of-america club, etc, etc.
I mean, yeah, that sort of policy is probably unwise and goes too far, but I could sort of see the argument that when the state is acting in loco parentis over minor children, that the state does have power to draw some sort of line of that topic somewhere, as long as they draw it equally. The proposed law doesn't appear to meet that test, but the idea of it doesn't sound completely insane. I could certainly see a state law saying something like " Jr. High School Health class must not contain graphic images of the before and after of (alleged) sex-change-operations, nor advocate for same, and student clubs attempting to get around that restriction are also banned."
This is a dumb ban. LGBT clubs aren't any more about sexual intercourse than any other social club.
If they're clever, they'll start a rainbow flag club.
Sexual intercourse is the whole reason for their existence.
For LGBT existence? As opposed to heterosexuals? How does any rational person get from “some people are attracted to the same sex and others are attracted to the opposite sex”, which is sane, to “teenaged homosexuals are raging sex machines, unlike teenaged heterosexuals”, which is nuts.
The only difference between people who are attracted to the same sex and people who are attracted to the opposite sex is the similarity/difference between the two people. Nothing more, nothing less.
The law would also ban a heterosexual club.
What does that have to do with my post? It isn’t even true.
How does any rational person get from “some people are attracted to the same sex and others are attracted to the opposite sex”, which is sane, to “teenaged homosexuals are raging sex machines, unlike teenaged heterosexuals”, which is nuts.
I'm not sure that you have correctly characterized Roger's notion, but let me address the "raging sex machine" thesis you have advanced.
Teenage boys and young men are - on average - "raging sex machines." They are obsessed with it - on average. So obsessed that they spend hours and hours engaging with the only partner they can find that is willing to play with them. Themselves. It is of course true that teenage girls and young women are hardly - on average - uninterested in sex. But statistically speaking they are much less obsessed than their male counterparts. I could explain why - biiologically - that's not surprising, but I'll leave that for now.
Instead I'll merely offer an anecdote - or rather an actual psychological experiment. Which went broadly as follows. College students were recruited - they are always the main ingredients of psychological experiments, as they're cheap. They were selected, from both sexes, for attractiveness, and their task was to approach strangers on campus with 1 of 4 possible opening lines. (They didn't pick which line, they were instructed on which one to use, case by case.) The lines ranged from "Hi - haven't I seen you in class ? I'm Josh / Joni. Would you like to go for a coffee ?' up to "Hi - Wow ! I'm Greg / Katy. You look great and you turn me on. Would you come back with me to my room for - well you know what for !"
The results were unsurprising. When an attractive male approached a female, the frequency of "Yes" to the pick up line was considerably lower than when an attractive female approached a male. Unsurprisingly as the pick up line got racier, the "Yes" response declined in frequency. But asymmetrically as to the sex of the test victim.
At max raciness - ie come back with me for sex, right now ! - the frequency of "Yes" from female victims dropped to .... zero. But when it was a hot female tester and a male victim the frequency dropped to .... 80% "Yes." And apparently quite a few of the 20% said "er..I don't think my girlfriend would like it."
Admittedly this test was done more than 30 years ago, and maybe the scores would have changed a hair by now. But it's a pretty clear illustration that guys are more up for it than gals. On average. Or at least more up for it on minimal acquaintance.
Which brings us to our "raging sex machine" (RSM) prediction. What would we expect the frequency of sex partners to be in college age humans for :
(a) M-F enthusiasts
(b) M-M enthusiasts
(c) F-F enthusiasts
Well if we are correct in assuming that - on average - Fs have a lower RSM rating than Ms, then the frequency of new couplings in any relationship with an F in it, will be governed by the average F RSM rating, and the average M RSM rating will be irrelevant. But M-M relationships will not be governed by the lower F RSM rating, and can proceed at warp speed.
Thus you would expect M-M participants to be able to give full vent to their "raging sex machine" ratings.
And so .... you would expect LBGT folk to exhibit a higher raging sex machine profile than straight folk. Gay gals and straight folk chugging along at similar levels, because governed by the lower F rating. But gay guys dragging up the overall LGBT score.
Obviously exogenous environmental events may affect the exhibition of such tendencies Thus you'd expect exhibted F RSM behavior to have increased as a result of the pill. And exhibited RSM behavior by gay Ms to have fallen as a result of immediate post-AIDS caution; and exhibited straight M RSM behavior in college to have fallen as a result of increased risks of being accused of sexual assault or harassment.
Sheesh, at least I can tell the difference between a high school affinity club and a kink night play party in the local underground club scene.
Wins the thread.
So can the Texas legislature.
When they're not attending the kink poly play parties that they piously object to in public.
Two arguments here. First, I would suggest that the reasoning in Gay and Lesbian Task Force vs. Virginia Commonwealth University, may be relevant here. In that case, decided in the 1970s, the 4th Circuit held that Virginia Commonwealth University had to allow the Gay and Lesbian Task Force as a student group. It held, however, that it could ban certain activities by that group, particularly peer counseling. While general advocacy is protected by the First Amendment, one-on-one activities come under the crime facilitation speech exception, and a Virginia public university is entitled to ensure that its resources are not used to facilitate violation of the state’s sodomy laws as distinct from abstract advocacy concerning them.
Under Maher v. Roe, government can refuse to fund abortion despite abortion being constitutionally protected. The Supreme Court might well hold that the same is true here. If that is the case, the distinction the 4th Circuit made between abstract advocacy activities and conduct-facilitating activities might well apply.
The second and more straightforward issue is that Hazelwood v. Kulmeier suggests there that unlike university student groups, K-12 student activities are more likely to be creatures of the school, not the students, and their speech is more likely to be the school’s speech. Unlike when dealing with legal adults in universities, K-12 involves minors and the doctrine of in loco parentis applies. While this doctrine has limits when asserted agaisnt the will of actual parents, it has fewer limits when asserted against students themselves. And state legislatures can regulate schools’ speech, and specify rules for how they fulfill the in loco parentis role.
I think the fundamental question here is whether LGBTQ issues are more like abortion, where even in the height of the Roe v. Wade era a majority of the Supreme Court maintained that the individual rights involved were not completely unequivocal and the state retained interests that it could assert when e.g. it was spending its own money, or whether whether they are more like race, where the Court has generally found any assertion of a state interest incompatible with the constitution.
Professor Carpenter, very understandably, takes the position that LGBTQ issues are more like race. And he has some support for this. After all, Dobbs was very careful to distinguish abortion as a uniquely special issue not necessarily applicable to others. In addition, Justice Gorsuch, a Trump appointee, decided Bostock in a way that would seem to favor an expansive interpretation of the scope of individual rights.
Nonetheless, it’s not clear to me that the question is definitely decided. The court has from time to time provided language tending to favor the view, advocated by Justice Alito, that opposition to homosexuality remains rational and legitimate as a state interest, and that the whole subject ought to be analyzed like abortion.
I think it remains to be seen which view will ultimately prevail.
I would suggest that rather than hearing about a 50 year circuit court case and then spinning off wild flights of fancy based on it, you familiarize yourself with significantly more recent and applicable Supreme Court precedent.
1) Sodomy laws were invalidated by Lawrence.
2) Funding is not constitutionally required to advance a constitutional right, but funding cannot be based on liking or disliking the viewpoint of someone's speech.
3) I know of no cases that have held that K-12 student groups are considered government speech. They have always been held to be limited public forums.
I’ll just briefly address your first point. Lawrence v. Texas did not in fact invalidate sodomy laws for minors. It only concerned adults. We are dealing with minors here.
OK. I'll assume for the sake of argument the club cannot instruct people on how to engage in sodomy. That doesn't suffice to ban the club.
For your #2, the VCU case distinguished speech from conduct. It said VCU couldn’t ban the club, but it could ban some of its activities that it identified as falling on the conduct side.
For your #3, I was focusing on the Supremw Court. Could you point me to a Supreme Court case on this point?
For the record, the Fourth Circuit in the VCU case did not in fact do what you're claiming it did. It did not say that the govt "could ban some of its activities." That is found nowhere in the opinion. (The only mention of counseling — not "peer counseling" — was an observation at the beginning of the opinion that "GAS disavows any purpose to provide professional counseling or therapy," not a holding about what GAS could do.) It held that the club had to be treated exactly like all other student clubs. It did note that the state could criminalize gay sex, but that had nothing to do with the university or club recognition — just a general observation about criminal law. Obviously the club was not holding itself out as a forum for orgies.
For the same record, Hazelwood v. Kulmeier did not "suggest" anything like what you claimed, either. It held, not suggested, that a newspaper that was part of the school curriculum — it was published by the journalism class — was unlike student organizations, which were limited public fora. There was no "more likely" test created or applied.
The Texas law doesn't ban certain student clubs because of conduct.
As Nieporent pointed out, the Hazelwood court said that access to school resources for student organizations comes under the limited public forum doctrine.
“ advocated by Justice Alito, that opposition to homosexuality remains rational and legitimate as a state interest, and that the whole subject ought to be analyzed like abortion.”
Point #735 on the list of “Ways Samuel Alito has proved himself to be a corrupt, bigoted asshole”. Granted, Thomas is more overtly corrupt, but Alito isn’t surrendering the title without a fight.
I think this analysis, if applied to religious clubs at public schools, would have unintended consequences.
Regardless, the usual tactic if a public school wishes to ban LGBT clubs is to ban all clubs in order to apply any restrictions in a fair and non-discriminatory manner. This law reads to me like an attempt to get this topic back in front of judges in the hopes that they can roll back the clock to when anti-gay "sodomy" laws were considered common sense.
#nogovernmentschools
The law strikes me as ambiguous – does the law limit clubs for gay students or clubs for taking about gay students? The first one seems less legally problematic. There will be four votes in the Supreme Court to strike it down but maybe not five. Courts are supposed to prefer a constitutional construction of a law to an unconstitutional one.
What does a "club for gay students" mean?
Most simply, a club for people who identify as "gay", whatever that means. In college I remember a student group called "gays at (name of school)". I didn't inquire about what I had to do to join it.
If they don’t exclude non-gay students, what would the rationale be?
Firstly, I cannot read this bill to say that it only bans clubs whose membership is limited to gays. Does it also ban straight-only clubs?
Secondly assuming I am wrong about that, what motivated the legislature to ban gay-only clubs (or gay-only plus straight-only clubs)?
It bans straight clubs, if the club is based on sexual orientation.
How?
Perusing the law, it's asinine, and even the asinine anti-DEI efforts (diversity, equity, inclusion is not inherently bad -- they are fine when it helps certain religions, for instance) has to include a bunch of exceptions, since again, DEI is not always bad at all.
Carpenter says there is a 1A right to school-sponsored sex clubs. How far does this go? Could kindergarten kids for a porn club whose chief purpose is to download and watch porn video? Maybe also a club to discuss future jobs as porn actors? All with school sponsorship?
Leftists would love that, like Brave New World basically. There were thousands of videos posted by Libs of TikTok with all of these "educators" that would bring sex toys into school, teach children about licking assholes, and so on. But they thought they were just talking to their buddies on TikTok, they won't even admit this now - they'll be along shortly to reply to my comment and deny this. And legally they'll say no, obviously that is distinguishable, but then they'll turn around and argue that it's unconstitutional to remove pornographic material from kids libraries. Sick puppies.
“ Carpenter says there is a 1A right to school-sponsored sex clubs.”
That’s not even a little bit like what was said. Honesty isn’t your strong suit, is it?
He does. He says the ban is unconstitutional, based on the 1A.
Carpenter said:
Right, and Carpenter says the Constitution mandates those clubs. You could call them sex clubs or sex discussion clubs.
The quote above said the supporters of the law concede they aren't sex clubs. Nor are they sex discussion clubs (how to use condemn?).
No, the quote says one legislator apologized, but no one said they were not sex clubs.
No one said your mom's bedroom isn't a "sex club" either.
I guess that's conclusive proof that your mom runs a sex club in her bedroom, correct?
If you're confused by the foregoing, may I suggest remedial logic 101.
You’re really trying to pretend that you are accidentally misusing the term “sex club”? Sure.
I used the term sex club because that is a brief description of what Carpenter is advocating.
No, it’s a gross mischaracterization, intended to imply that LGBT clubs are about sexual activity.
A brief term is LGBT club. Which also benefits from it’s lack of nefarious implications, like yours.
No, the law does not mention "LGBT". Sex club is a more accurate description of what the law bans.
Please.
"No, the law does not mention "LGBT". Sex club is a more accurate description of what the law bans."
I have represented sex clubs before. They had nothing to do with pedagogy.
I've been to sex clubs. It's different than your mom's basement, which seems to be the extent of your ... linguistic experience.
just to be clear on your basic vocab use (as ridonkulous and trolling as it is):
the common use of the term "sex club" is something like "a club where the members get together for the purpose of and in fact do engage in actual sexual activity".
No one remotely seriously claims high school clubs meet that definition.
But when you use "sex club", are you claiming it is the common use identified above?
If not, would you disclaim that particular definition and provide your own?
C'mon, put up or STFU.
(But I expect you to chicken out, just like TACOTUS)
I think the primary purpose of these clubs is for the sexual grooming of children so that they can be molested by adults.
Roger, claiming that you think at all presumes a fact not in evidence.
Well, there you have it folks ... Gay Derangement Syndrome (GDS).
High school kids who want to have a student club where they can interact with peers == brainless "adults trying to groom" gay panic.
Peak conservative snowflake!
There are plenty of other clubs where students interact with peers, without depending on sexual orientation and gender identity.
Deal with your words, don't make excuses.
That sounds like you're telling us your repressed-by-religion sexual fantasies. Are you a Catholic priest? Or just another Evangelical kiddie-fucker?
I am not the one supporting this grooming bill.
You sound like you are indeed supporting this bill.
Strange world when we can't tell the difference between paleocon disinformation muckrakers and pr0nhub.
Pornographic is exactly the point. These "educators" are bringing pornographic stuff into the classroom, and it needs to be talked about and called out and stopped.
Here is just one example of thousands. The look on Chris Cuomo's face when they read from the Kindergarten book is priceless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e8EwRkphmI
More proof that MAGAs are bigoted shits.
Because they do not want their local public schools running homosexual clubs for schoolchildren?
Yes.
It is really disturbing how much Carpenter and some of the commenters want schools to sponsor a student club based on sexual orientation or gender identity. Carpenter even wants these clubs in middle schools.
"States may prohibit student conduct (sexual or otherwise) on campus that is illegal or inappropriate. But that is not what S.B. 12 does. It targets speech."
The line between conduct and speech is becoming imperceptible under modern 1A doctrine. All conduct is in some way expressive of one's opinions and beliefs (except maybe sleepwalking, twitches, tics, and reflexive body action).
The Texas law does not target student speech at all. The students are free to express whatever opinions they want.
Discussion is speech.
So says Carpenter. Read the bill. It says:
"A school district or open-enrollment charter school may not authorize or sponsor a student club based on sexual orientation or gender identity."
Carpenter didn't say the bill is about speech. He said those who support the bill say it is about speech. He could be wrong about that, but quoting the language of the bill is not evidence of what the supports claim.
So Carpenter is misrepresenting the bill, and probably misrepresenting the supporters as well.