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Justices Alito and Thomas Dissent from Court's Declining to Hear "There Are Only Two Genders" School T-Shirt Case
From Justice Alito's dissent from the denial of certiorari in L.M. v. Town of Middleborough, joined (with a twist) by Justice Thomas:
This case presents an issue of great importance for our Nation's youth: whether public schools may suppress student speech either because it expresses a viewpoint that the school disfavors or because of vague concerns about the likely effect of the speech on the school atmosphere or on students who find the speech offensive. In this case, a middle school permitted and indeed encouraged student expression endorsing the view that there are many genders. But when L.M., a seventh grader, wore a t-shirt that said "There Are Only Two Genders," he was barred from attending class. And when he protested this censorship by blocking out the words "Only Two" and substituting "CENSORED," the school prohibited that shirt as well.
The First Circuit held that the school did not violate L.M.'s free-speech rights. It held that the general prohibition against viewpoint-based censorship does not apply to public schools. And it employed a vague, permissive, and jargon-laden rule that departed from the standard this Court adopted in Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School Dist. (1969).
The First Circuit's decision calls out for our review….
[T]he First Circuit relied on the … [Tinker principle that the First Amendment allows discipline for student speech that] "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder." The court acknowledged that L.M.'s shirts—like the black armbands in Tinker—expressed his views "passively, silently, and without mentioning any specific students." But the court saw a material difference between L.M.'s speech and that of the students in Tinker. According to the First Circuit, L.M.'s expression—unlike the speech in Tinker—"demean[ed] characteristics of personal identity, such as race, sex, religion, or sexual orientation" that "other students at the school share." After surveying decisions from other Circuits that have encountered similar situations, the First Circuit fashioned a bespoke two-pronged test to apply in this context:
"[S]chool officials may bar passive and silently expressed messages by students at school that target no specific student if: (1) the expression is reasonably interpreted to demean one of those characteristics of personal identity, given the common understanding that such characteristics are unalterable or otherwise deeply rooted and that demeaning them strike[s] a person at the core of his being; and (2) the demeaning message is reasonably forecasted to poison the educational atmosphere due to its serious negative psychological impact on students with the demeaned characteristic and thereby lead to symptoms of a sick school—symptoms therefore of substantial disruption."
When both prongs are satisfied, the First Circuit explained, a court can be confident "that speech is being barred only for reasons Tinker permits and not merely because it is 'offensive' in the way that a controversial opinion always may be."
Applying this standard to the facts at hand, the First Circuit resolved both prongs in favor of the School. Specifically, it determined (1) that NMS reasonably interpreted L.M.'s shirts as asserting that anyone who identifies as anything other than male or female is "'invalid or nonexistent,'" which would "demean the identity of transgender and gender-nonconforming NMS students"; and (2) such an affront on the very "existence" of these students would "'materially disrupt [their] ability to focus on learning.'"In making the latter determination, the court deferred to the School's prior experiences with the "'LGBTQ+ population at NMS,'" particularly "the serious nature of the struggles, including suicidal ideation, that some of those students had experienced." Given the "'vulnerability'" of these students, the court saw no reason to second guess NMS's prediction that the shirts "would so negatively affect the[ir] psychology" that their academic performance and class attendance would decline.
Finally, the First Circuit sidestepped L.M.'s viewpoint-discrimination arguments. Rather than fully engage with those arguments on the merits, the court, in a footnote, declined to import this Court's broader viewpoint-discrimination jurisprudence into the school context….
I would grant the petition for two reasons.
First, we should reaffirm the bedrock principle that a school may not engage in viewpoint discrimination when it regulates student speech. Tinker itself made that clear…. ("Clearly, the prohibition of expression of one particular opinion … is not constitutionally permissible"). Curiously, however, the First Circuit declined to follow Tinker in this regard, instead cherry-picking which First Amendment principles it thought worthy of allowing through the schoolhouse gates. By limiting the application of our viewpoint-discrimination cases, the decision below robs a great many students of that core First Amendment protection.
Second, we should also grant review to determine whether the First Circuit properly understood the rule adopted in Tinker regarding the suppression of student speech on the ground that it presents a risk of material disruption. We have described this standard as "demanding." But the First Circuit fashioned a rule that is anything but. The lower courts are divided on how to apply Tinker's "material disruption" standard in a context like this one, and the decision below underscores the pressing need for clarification. {See, e.g., Zamecnik v. Indian Prairie School Dist. No. 204 (CA7 2011) (upholding a student's right to wear a shirt that read, "Be Happy, Not Gay"); Nuxoll v. Indian Prairie School Dist. No. 204 (CA7 2008) (same); Sypniewski v. Warren Hills Regional Bd. of Educ. (CA3 2002) (upholding a student's right to wear a shirt "inscribed with 'redneck' jokes"); see also Harper ex rel. Harper v. Poway Unified School Dist. (CA9 2006) (upholding a school's ban of a shirt that read, "Homosexuality Is Shameful"), vacated as moot (2007); Parents Defending Education v. Olentangy Local School Dist. Bd. of Educ. (CA6) (holding that a school could satisfy Tinker's material-disruption standard by relying on "common-sense conclusions based on human experience" to punish students for the "dehumanizing and humiliating effects of non-preferred pronouns"), reh'g en banc granted (CA6 2024)….
[A.] "[A]bove all else, the First Amendment means that government has no power to restrict expression because of its message, its ideas, its subject matter, or its content." Otherwise, the government could purge entire topics from the public discourse. And as our cases recognize, these freedom-of-speech harms become "all the more blatant" when the government "targets not subject matter, but particular views taken by speakers on a subject."
Nor is there a carveout from this principle for controversial, offensive, or disfavored views. For example, we recently held unconstitutional a statute prohibiting the registration of "immoral or scandalous" trademarks, explaining that "a law disfavoring 'ideas that offend'" is "the 'essence of viewpoint discrimination.'" Indeed, the presumption against viewpoint discrimination is of such importance to our constitutional order that we have even applied it to categories of speech—like fighting words—that do not enjoy full First Amendment protection. So, for example, Congress could ban all fighting words, but it could not ban only those fighting words directed toward Protestants.
Unsurprisingly, the viewpoint-neutrality rule also applies to student speech. Students do not relinquish their First Amendment rights at school, and by extension, a school cannot censor a student's speech merely because it is controversial. As Tinker itself made clear, the viewpoint-neutrality rule plays an important role in safeguarding students' First Amendment right to express an "unpopular viewpoint" at school. There, in holding unconstitutional the decision to prohibit students from wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam War, we emphasized that the school authorities "did not purport to prohibit the wearing of all symbols of political or controversial significance." "[S]tudents in some of the schools wore buttons relating to national political campaigns, and some even wore the Iron Cross, traditionally a symbol of Nazism." The schools allowed this speech but not the armbands. We concluded that such viewpoint discrimination "is not constitutionally permissible." …
[T]he First Circuit … [stated] in a footnote …: "We see no reason to take up L.M.'s invitation to be, as far as we can tell, the first court to import recent decisions that clearly did not contemplate the special characteristics of the public-school setting into that setting." The court below erred, and badly so: the rule that viewpoint-based restrictions on speech are almost never allowed is not a new principle proclaimed only in "recent decisions" …. To the contrary, viewpoint neutrality has long been seen as going to "the very heart of the First Amendment." B
[B.] The First Circuit also watered down the test adopted in Tinker for determining whether a school's restriction of student speech is allowed. Because free speech is the default and censorship the exception, Tinker set forth a "demanding standard." We held that a school can restrict speech when it has "evidence" that such restrictions are "necessary" to "avoid material and substantial interference with schoolwork or discipline." Thus, absent a "specific showing" of such a disruption—like "threats or acts of violence on school premises"—this justification for suppressing student speech does not apply.
Under this standard, NMS had no right to censor L.M. Like the black armbands in Tinker, L.M.'s shirts were a "silent, passive expression of opinion, unaccompanied by any disorder or disturbance on the part of petitione[r]." And just as in Tinker, some of L.M.'s classmates found his speech upsetting. Feeling upset, however, is an unavoidable part of living in our "often disputatious" society, and Tinker made abundantly clear that the "mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint" is no reason to thwart a student's speech. True, NMS also forecasted that L.M.'s shirts could lead to a "standoff " between students who support L.M.'s view and those who oppose it. 103 F. 4th, at 880. But the schools in Tinker were similarly worried that students "would wear arm bands of other colors" and that this could "evolve into something which would be difficult to control." 393 U. S., at 509, n. 3 (internal quotation marks omitted). If anything, the risk in Tinker was far less speculative than in this case. In Tinker, several students had already "made hostile remarks to the children wearing armbands," and a math teacher "had his lesson period practically 'wrecked' chiefly by disputes with Mary Beth Tinker" over her armband. Even so, Tinker deemed the schools' concern an "undifferentiated fear" that could not "overcome the right to freedom of expression."
Instead of applying Tinker's speech-protective standards, the court below crafted a novel and permissive test that distorts the "material disruption" rule beyond recognition. The First Circuit identified a special category of speech, i.e., speech that can be interpreted as demeaning a deeply rooted characteristic of personal identity. And if student speech, as interpreted by the school, falls into this category, the school may ban that speech if the school "reasonably forecast[s]" that it may have a "serious negative psychological impact on students with the demeaned characteristic."
This rule cannot be squared with Tinker. The black armbands in that case also involved an emotionally charged topic, and the students in the Des Moines public schools were not somehow immune from those intense feelings. Justice Black made precisely this point in his dissent, writing: "Of course students … cannot concentrate on lesser issues when black armbands are being ostentatiously displayed in their presence to call attention to the wounded and dead of the war, some of the wounded and the dead being their friends and neighbors." … "[T]he armbands … took the students' minds off their classwork and diverted them to thoughts about the highly emotional subject of the Vietnam war" …. Indeed, a "former student of one of [the] high schools was killed in Viet Nam," and "[s]ome of his friends [were] still in school." The Tinker Court nevertheless held that this stress and these distractions did not trump the students' constitutional rights.
The First Circuit's test dilutes Tinker in other ways too. To name just a few, it defines "material disruption" to include anything that correlates with "a decline in students' test scores, an upsurge in truancy, or other symptoms of a sick school," whatever that means. That is a highly permissive standard, and it certainly requires far less than that which Tinker suggested would constitute a "material disruption." See Tinker ("aggressive, disruptive action"); ibid. ("threats or acts of violence on school premises"); ibid. ("group demonstrations").
Further, the First Circuit's test demands that a federal court abdicate its responsibility to safeguard students' First Amendment rights and instead defer to school officials' assessment of the meaning and effect of speech. The court below, for example, deferred to the School administrators' determination that L.M.'s shirts conveyed a message that demeaned others' personal identity. That court also deferred to the administrators' speculation about the likely effects of the t-shirts on students—even though L.M.'s speech resulted in no actual disruptions, and even though NMS "was not aware of any prior incidents or problems caused by th[e] [shirts'] message[s]." That approach defies Tinker, in which we performed our own "independent examination of the record" without trusting school administrators' self-serving observations.
Tinker's "material disruption" standard is demanding by design. That is because free speech is the rule, not the exception. The First Circuit's test flips that principle on its head….
Justice Thomas noted that he had called for Tinker to be overruled, and for the Court to conclude that public schools have essentially plenary authority to restrict students' speech. But he joined Justice Alito's opinion on the grounds that, "unless and until this Court revisits it, Tinker is binding precedent that lower courts must faithfully apply." [UPDATE: I originally wrote Justice Black in the first sentence of this opinion, but of course this was Justice Thomas, who has long defended Justice Black's position in Tinker. In general, Justice Thomas's constitutional jurisprudence has in many ways echoed Justice Black's, just as Justice Breyer's had echoed Justice Frankfurter's.]
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Justice Black?
Unless Hugo Black has come back from the dead, I think you've got a bit of a typo in your second-to-last sentence, here.
Hard-pressed to come up with a defense of SCOTUS' punt, here. Apache Stronghold was annoying, but at least it was pretty hyperspecific. Here, we've got a clear circuit split, obvious ramifications to broad portions of society, bad reasoning from the lower courts, final judgement, and about a developed of a record as you're going to get in a speech case. My gutcheck says the kid's probably getting used a bit as a mouthpiece by his parents, and I don't think his (or their) position is /good/, but it doesn't justify the sort of Some Animals Are Better Than Others behavior that the schools are overtly getting away with, here.
SCOTUS is borderline useless at this point.
Forget borderline -- this decision is bullshyte.
Spineless....
I'm not sure I'd say borderline.
I realize that they're protected from having their pay cut, but surely there must be SOME way to give them an incentive to take more cases.
Perhaps Congress, (Ah, but Congress is about as useless.) could create a new lower court that automatically gets the cases where there are circuit splits and the Court refuses certiori? Call it the "Supremish" court, and give them better pay and digs?
I like it. One Supremish Court, and one Supremer.
Tinker involved wearing armbands protesting the Vietnam war.
It seems to me that the Des Moines school district could have easily argued that these armbands tend to demean, insult, and embarass students whose parents are in the military. And not only that, it does so on the basis of their status. The children of military families are stuck being who they are and cannot choose who their parents are. And I see no reason why the children of military families are in any way less deserving of protection from embarassment due to student expressions of anti-military sentiment than these.
So it seems to me that under the First Circuit’s standard, the Des Moines school had every right to discipline the Tinker students. Because the First Circuit’s attempt at distinguishing this case from Tinker ends uo describing the Tinker students just as accurately as it describes the one in this case, it strikes me as a distinction without a difference.
Agreed. The First Circuit's reasoning was specious at best.
Remember that there was a USAF or AirGuard unit based there that was IN Vietnam at the time.
Being a military family then = being a tranny today.
The ultimate fact is that any controversial speech, the very speech that needs protection, will demean, insult or embarrass someone, at least in their own minds.
If that speech can be deemed unprotected, then you have a heckler's veto over anything offensive.
Justice Black? What about Justice Frankfurter?
“ It seems to me that the Des Moines school district could have easily argued that these armbands tend to demean, insult, and embarass students whose parents are in the military.”
They did argue that. They rightly lost.
But under the First Circuit’s standard, they would have won. That’s my point.
Yes, unless the First Circuit’s standard is intended to applied with appropriate malleability. Heh.
The substantial, meaningful difference being that in only one of those two cases, the direct impact of "demean, insult, and embar[r]ass" is to students presently in that school.
I don’t see that that’s even a difference at all, let alone “substantial” or “meaningful.” Considering the number of military installations in the Des Moines area, it’s extremely unlikely there were no children from military families actually presently in the Des Moines school along with the Tinker students at the time of the Tinker protests.
I see Purple Martin's point as being that "there are only two genders" is directly demeaning and insulting to a non-binary student. Unless the armband in Tinker was stating that it was shameful to be the child of a member of the military (or something equally directed at the student), there is an obvious difference.
HOW????
People weren't demeaning USAF officers then?
I forget the plane but the Des Moines unit had planes in Nam at the time.
"I see Purple Martin's point as being that "there are only two genders" is directly demeaning and insulting to a non-binary student."
Is it demeaning to Rachael Dolezal to say that she isn't black?
The claim that the shirt is demeaning begs the question.
It may be a
bridge too farhair too fine.A general opinion: there are two genders, is also demeaning. I don't argue this.
"Your parents in 'nam are viscious child murderers!" is ok, as it doesn't address the student directly. Spittle aside.
Yeahhh.
Talk about hair-splitting. Many of the families of those involuntarily in 'Nam were very much against they're being there, and likely supportive of the black-armband protest.
The distinction of demeaning the schoolchild who is physically present, versus 2nd and 3rd-person insults, stands.
There may be something to be said for the dissent in Tinker that the constitution should not let minor students talk back to teachers because doing so would completely undermine school discipline. School discipline these days seems to be in considerable trouble, and teachers have a lot less authority than they used to.
But it’s up to the Supreme Court to reconsider its precedents.
In theory I’d be fine with a holding that stated that students have no free speech rights at all while in school, even if public schools can discriminate based on content, but for the compulsory nature of public schools. The right of local government to indoctrinate must implicate the right of the unwilling student to express disagreement.
Should kids have the right to talk back to their parents because living there is compulsory?
What the student should do is claim hostile environment and make the district pay for private school.
Not actually the holding of Tinker.
As clearly stated, this was the opinion of the dissent in Tinker.
I phrased that badly. Not actually the issue of Tinker, and it's the majority view as well as the dissent's.
I suspect we’ll see some curious silence from puros-called supporters of free speech here.
They’ll cheer loud for flags burned in Texas v. Johnson, where the Supreme Court shielded even fiery protest from the censor’s grip, but faced with a kid’s bold tee, they’ll dodge and weave, suddenly deaf to the First Amendment’s tune.
You mean, some people who think a grown-ass man shouldn't be jailed for burning a flag also think a school should be able to tell a student not to wear a shirt that demeans other students?
Imagine that.
The only demeaning here seems to be what the school did to L.M..
You can burn a flag but not a cross
You can burn a cross, too.
Just not with intent to intimidate.
You can tune a piano but you can't tune a fish.
Hoe does this compare with Pyle v So Hadley -- coed naked t shirts?
Those were permitted.
If students in public schools were originally understood as having free-speech rights, one would have expected 19th-century public schools to have respected those rights and courts to have enforced them.1 They did not.
Justice Thomas said that in his separate opinion in Morse v. Frederick, and reaffirmed the principle in other cases.
Alito's broad respect for free speech is also somewhat selective.
Also, the armbands in Tinker were not targeting "military families" as such. Many military families would be quite sympathetic to the peace-promoting message of the armbands.
The t-shirts here were alleged to demean certain students. Now, maybe that should not be the test, or it was applied too loosely. Nonetheless, it is quite possible to differentiate the two cases.
The school's ban on the student's shirt is a heckler's veto because it stifles speech based on others' likely upset, breaking First Amendment rules. In Tinker v. Des Moines, the high court said students keep their free-speech rights in school unless their words greatly disrupt learning or harm others’ rights. By banning the shirt for possibly offending some, the school hands its power to the touchiest listeners, a move courts have struck down in cases like Terminiello v. City of Chicago and Cohen v. California, which guard speech even if it stirs anger, so long as it does not spark violence or true threats.
The claim that the shirt, unlike Tinker’s armbands, insults some students does not hold. The armbands were bold and could have offended, yet the court upheld them. The school’s loose “insulting” rule invites unfair use and picks on one viewpoint, which Reed v. Town of Gilbert says must face strict tests. Without proof of real disruption or a tightly fit reason, the ban acts as a heckler’s veto, wrongly silencing speech because of others’ feelings.
It's a preemptive heckler's veto, because the school administration happens to agree with the hypothetical as yet hecklers.
Tinker cited a lower court to set forth this rule:
"materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school."
The concern is not simple "offense" in this case. The concern about "demeaning" fellow students is not the same thing. This is not just about "touchiest" people. The Supreme Court also allowed more regulation in schools than in the streets. A "F the Draft" jacket is likely to able to be banned in middle schools.
A general rule against demeaning people is not viewpoint-based.
Schools are allowed to have various rules to prevent insulting fellow students without it being a wrongheaded "heckler veto."
"A general rule against demeaning people is not viewpoint-based."
OTOH, construing "There are two genders" to be demeaning somebody IS viewpoint based. As is construing "There are [Censored] genders" to be demeaning anybody but the school administration.
You hate trans people; you call them mentally ill and think they are a priori unsuited for government jobs, due to being mentally ill.
You also go out of your way to find strained constructions to get a pronoun in there so you can call people what they don't want to be called.
Maybe you're not the best person to opine on what is or isn't demeaning to trans people.
Brett has show better judgment about that than you have. And, unlike you, he bothers to back up his judgments rather than just assume his conclusion.
I see him elevating his opinion into truth; I don't see a lot of backing it up.
I don't hate trans people, I actually feel quite sorry for them. It can't be easy being that messed up. It's somewhat of a silly trope, that if you won't humor their delusions, it must be because you hate them, not simply because you generally aren't willing to lie to humor other people's delusions. I mean, when you encounter somebody with anorexia, do you tell them, "Girl, you should go on a diet!"? It's not actually helpful to people to humor their delusions.
I don't think they belong in the military, certainly. Elevated medical requirements interfere with deployment, and elevated suicide risks are a bad mix with weaponry.
And I don't think we should be going out of our way to hire mentally ill people for critical policy positions, in government or out. But, of course, not all positions are critical, and even the mentally ill need jobs.
I don't hate black people, I actually feel quite sorry for them. It can't be easy being that above your station. It's somewhat of a silly trope, that if you won't humor their uppity notions, it must be because you hate them, not simply because you generally aren't willing to lie to humor other people's delusions.
I don't think they belong in the military, certainly. Diminished mental capacity interfere with deployment, and elevated lynching risks are a bad mix with weaponry.
And I don't think we should be going out of our way to hire mentally deficient people for critical policy positions, in government or out.
You would think after torturing that many points to attempt to force an analogy here one would realize "no, this isn't even remotely analogous" and cancel their reply.
It's precisely analogous. Brett's going off his personal take on trans people, and making a ton of negative associations.
He wants to deny them from jobs for reasons of who they are independent of their proven merit; that's all you need to know, but I thought I'd point out the many other ways he's being bigoted without realizing it.
You think skin tone is analogous to crippling distress over one’s sex?
That’s got to one of the most racist comments posted on this blog.
Your first clue should have been that black people don’t claim to require surgery to change their skin color.
So I guess black people join Jews on the list of people Sarcastro hates.
To be fair, Sarcastr0 might have the makings of a decent analogy... If black people were known for getting whole body tattoos to hide their actually being white.
So, Sarcastr0, DO you typically reassure anorexics that they really are grossly obese, they're not imagining it? And if not, why?
Do you even realize this amazing point of yours requires begging the question?
You love in a world where everyone secretly agrees with you. It makes you bad at arguing.
Lol Sarc doesn't know what begging the question means.
Ironically, the First Circuit's decision in this case is an excellent example of question begging.
As we all know, Brett is mentally ill and shouldn't be employed. My money's on tiny pianist to be mentally ill as well.
Biden, Trump, and Reagan a(we)re all certainly mentally ill. RFK has a brainworm hole, that counts. Lots of people see therapists, go to AA, or go to church. They're all mentally ill of course. So, probably, are the people who don't go to therapy, AA, or church.
It's dangerous to stigmatize mental illness because it's too easy to throw around. We've known this since at least One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Give it up.
Would you accept medical skin bleaching or would you say that the Lord made you Black and accept it?
So wjy is surgery acceptable here???
Michael Jackson skin-bleached and no one seemed to mind.
You do know that he had vitiligo, right?
Believing “trans people are mentally ill is not evidence of hate. And while I don’t agree that such illness is a priori evidence of unsuitability for government employment, that is a prudential opinion and not evidence of hate.
You are making the same lazy assertions employed against people who believe homosexual acts are morally wrong. Such a belief logically is evidence of neither fear nor dislike of those who engage in such acts, let alone hate.
Just lazy rhetoric designed to steal the high ground in a debate.
You claim a rule against demeaning speech isn’t viewpoint-based and that schools can curb insults without it being a heckler’s veto.
However, “demeaning” is a loose term, open to biased use, and banning speech for its effect on others often favors one side, clashing with Reed v. Town of Gilbert, which demands strict review for content-based rules. Schools can set rules, but Tinker requires bans to be grounded in actual disruption, not just fear of hurt feelings. Without clear evidence that the shirt caused or would cause significant trouble, the ban leans on others’ reactions, acting like a heckler’s veto by letting the audience’s feelings trump the speaker’s rights.
Reed v. Town of Gilbert split the Court multiple ways. Just what it requires, especially in this context, is far from clear.
Tinker noted:
As we have discussed, the record does not demonstrate any facts which might reasonably have led school authorities to forecast substantial disruption of or material interference with school activities, and no disturbances or disorders on the school premises in fact occurred.
Not "clear evidence of significant trouble." Reasonably led ... including to "material interference with school activities."
Again, "one side" isn't targeted here. There is a general concern. If suspect viewpoint discrimination is involved in school rules to protect students, which is not just applied here for your "fear of hurt feelings" strawman, someone can provide evidence of it.
Actually it is viewpoint discrimination because the touchiest people will shriek loudest at the most minor "offense" or just to exert power with whatever magic word you give them. Of course you agree with the censorship so you have every reason to lie about what is plainly obvious.
But, Tinker (unfortunately) permits a heckler's veto. If those who opposed the wearing of the armbands would have been more vociferous, the Tinkers would have lost, because there would have been a risk of "substantial disruption."
That is unfortunately the takeaway from Tinker. If there is something at school you don't like, the last thing you want to do is be respectful and disagree. That means it is allowed. You should riot and break things and cause a substantial disruption.
Then your own lawless actions would justify a ban on what you don't like.
Exactly...
Without getting into the current argument, I think this is another reason to implement school uniforms.
During my last deployment, I served as the Executive Officer for a deployment area command group. One of the rotational units got careless in following the DoD flag policy. We warned the leadership of the unit. They thought being understanding was a better policy. Hey, it's Pride Month. Then, the first official complaint was made. My instructions to the their leadership was simple. "According to DoD policy, US and state flags are allowed. Unit flags approved by US Army Heraldry are allowed. All others come down now. Have your commander report to the Post HQ as soon as it is accomplished." The commander had to tell his unit to remove not only pride flags but sports flags and a few hometown-ish banners.
DoD decided that in order to prevent censorship based on viewpoint, all viewpoints were censored.
That strikes me as the reasonable position: Either allow all viewpoints or no viewpoints.
Oh, I agree; My son's charter school has school uniforms, and it gets rid of a lot of this nonsense.
Yeah; my kids' private school has uniforms — some variations allowed, like they can have different colors of the same polo shirt with the school logo on it — and I'm happy with it. (Of course, a private school isn't subject to the 1A anyway.) Not only does it avoid status issues at school, but it also avoids any arguments about what appropriate attire might be.
If we leave it up to them, Justice Alito and Justice Thomas will undo not only our Constitution but also our country.
Hopefully
Hopefully
Thomas and Alito: "We should uphold our precedents and respect benign and passive free speech on topics being debated in our society."
Kafantaris: "*Gasp* Neither our Constitution nor our country can withstand such broadsides!"
If they always said that, you might have a point.
But both of them cherry pick when they care about stare.
Thomas manages to out-tool Alito on this one.
Literally all of the Justices are willing to overturn precedent depending on the circumstances. The one that comes the closest to being a stare decisis absolutist is Kagan, and even she's willing to overturn precedent on occasion.
Thomas has made clear over his entire Supreme Court career that he is open to reexamining and possibly overturning precedent if a party requests it, but if no one makes an argument to overturn precedent then he usually takes the precedent as is and applies it to the current situation. For an example of this, look at his concurrence in Troxel v. Granville, 530 U.S. 57 (2000).
Thomas isn't above recommending what decisions he'd like to overturn, however. See here.
"Justice Clarence Thomas argued in a concurring opinion released on Friday that the Supreme Court “should reconsider” its past rulings codifying rights to contraception access, same-sex relationships and same-sex marriage." He wrote this into the Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization opinion where he participated in overturning the right to an abortion, which has the impact of underscoring his desire to dismantle additional civil rights for disfavored groups.
It's not about stare decisis here. Alito and Thomas love taking away the free speech rights of kids when they have progressive views on political topics like drug legalization. It's pure politics with these two.
If Alito was not such a fair-weather 1A advocate I'd be inclined to agree with some of what he wrote.
Instead, I can't help but read this as just another post-hoc argument to buttress his reflexive support for "conservative" causes.
For whatever reason, he has repeatedly gone out if his way to write concurrences that are protective of student speech. Eg Mahanoy and Morse. So he is probably sincere re that category of speech cases.
I'm not familiar with those cases. For them to support the proposition that Alito is sincere, then his concurrences would need to be protective of 'liberal' student speech. If they were in support of 'conservative' student speech, then they would tend to back up Clem's claim.
Mahanoy: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/20-255_g3bi.pdf
Morse: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/pdf/06-278P.ZC1
To the extent the speech in either case has a political valence, I’d call it left-coded. Certainly neither is conservative.
Bong hits 4 Jesus and Fuck Cheer.
I think that this case is a stronger vehicle for free speech than those two cases. In the first you have advocacy of illegal drug use and in the second a rather offensive profanity. Both of those students could have made their point simply by cleaning it up and being more respectful in their speech---something that schools should teach young adults.
This case involves pure political speech on a contemporary issue. The school is just telling the kid that he is wrong and hurtful. It would be like if he had a shirt that said "trannys are going to hell" or something. He can get his point across with, well, a shirt like what he wore.
Yup. Any speech can be construed to be demeaning by someone so motivated. Speech opposing a minimum wage increase can be construed to be demeaning to low wage workers.
And I'm not sure why the first amendment would apply differently to speech that "demean[s] characteristics of personal identity, such as race, sex, religion, or sexual orientation" than to other speech.
It would seem that "low wage workers" aren't a class of people with special and favored rights like those other categories. I agree with you. This isn't the UK. A person is free to "demean" others for any reason.
Society has the power to demand equal treatment under the law or service in places of public accommodation. It cannot regulate speech because of its content.
I am inclined to agree with ah....Clem.
Alito is essentially a fairly routine liberal Justice, in terms of interpretive philosophy, whose opinions can be predicted pretty easily from whose ox is being gored. He just happens to be on the other side from regular liberal Justices.
Profoundly silly to have schools across the nation being run by federal judges.
I can see pretty reasonable reasons for the outcome going either way, but I'd certainly not call this schools 'being run by' federal judges.
It's a bit of hyperbole, yes.
“ I can see pretty reasonable reasons for the outcome going either way”
So much for Sarcastro’s claims of supporting free speech.
I mean, that's literally the opposite of what happened here.
Here, federal judges decided what schools across the nation can and cannot do, and added more layers of complicated nonsensical bespoke rules to describe it.
I mean, that's literally the opposite of what happened here.
You can censor passive and silently expressed messages by students if the expression is reasonably interpreted to be demeaning toward an unalterable or deeply rooted personal characteristic and strikes at the core of their being and is reasonably forecasted to poison the atmosphere.
You cannot censor passive and silently expressed messages by students under this rule if the expression is not demeaning or is only demeaning toward a personal characteristic that is alterable or not deeply rooted or is demeaning toward a personal characteristic that is unalterable or deeply rooted but not in a way that strikes at the core of their being or is not reasonably forecasted to poison the atmosphere.
Capiche?
Okay, but the chain of events here is:
(1) A school made a decision
(2) The student asked courts to control the school's decision
(3) Through the appeals process, the Supreme Court DECLINED to control the school's decision
(4) You, who want the court to control the school's decision, argued that by not controlling the school's decision, the court controlled the school's decision
It's fine that as a matter of policy you want a particular standard for 1A cases, but if your concern is that the court shouldn't mess with school decisionmaking, then, congrats on the win today and I have no idea why you're trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I think ML is suggesting - obviously correctly - is that what the courts actually do is determine what schools can do according to the court's own preference.
Thus if the school is already doing what the court likes, then it sonorously declines to prevent the school from carrying on as the court wishes - as in this case. But if the school is doing something that the court doesn't like, then it sonorously weighs in with "o noes ! you're treading on constitutional rights !" and tells the school to stop that right now.
So...you think the majority was correct here, since they let the school do what it wanted rather than having federal judges overrule their decision-making?
I do not think the majority was correct that there is some sort of 1A exception when speed is "demeaning." That's nonsensical, and seems to be a lawyerly rephrasing of a common leftwing meme about exceptions to free speech when it challenges "my right to exist" or something like that.
I do however think that school actions and policies should be controlled by the local school board and the state (including state constitutions) rather than by the federal government (which includes the federal judiciary). I know that will result in dumb things like censoring obvious truths that should not be controversial, as happened here. But as happened here, federal involvement did not prevent that either. Governments do bad or dumb things sometimes. Overall, more decentralization is better and is the only way to have some semblance of self-government and consent of the governed. That's why the founders wouldn't have dreamed of a bizarre idea like "incorporating" the 1A against the states, to be wielded by the federal judiciary, as that would place them under the "despotism of an oligarchy." I realize this is an unusual view these days, but see Raoul Berger's Government by Judiciary.
It's been downhill since Brown v. Board of Education
amirite?!
Good policy result. As legal reasoning, I haven't thought about it myself. But as Michael McConnell put it: "An impressive array of academic authorities, from across the ideological and jurisprudential spectrum-including such figures as Alexander Bickel, Laurence Tribe, Richard Posner, Mark Tushnet, Raoul Berger, Ronald Dworkin, and Walter Burns had come to the conclusion that under the original understanding of the Fourteenth Amendment, racial segregation of public schools was constitutionally permissible." https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=12612&context=journal_articles
The problem is always this idea that if something is really bad and horrible enough, it must somehow be unconstitutional, no matter how much we have to twist and turn things. But logically, whether something is good or bad has nothing necessarily to do with whether it is permitted by (or required by) the Constitution.
"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."
Censorship never works. Not because those who resist are so strong, but because those who oppress are so weak that they cannot bear to be contradicted. So in the end, they have to eliminate their opponents, which goes too far and rallies mass opposition.
Actually, censorship often works, which is why people are so attracted to it. Not completely, not forever, but enough, in the present.
Why don't you ask the kids at Tiananmen square?
Censorship seems to be working well for the PRC.
https://www.newsweek.com/china-rat-people-counterculture-work-economy-2062931
I'm unclear how this challenges the idea that the PRC's communist government is still in control, and owes that in part to censorship.
Brett rolling tankie so he can build up a censorship monster only authoritarianism can fight.
Look at these kids with such faith in the regime!
iT'S gOiNg GrEaT iN cHiNa.
Huh? What are you going on about?
I'm just pointing out that the reason so many people resort to censorship is that it actually works to some extent. If it were always and everywhere totally futile, who would bother?
You seem to have this weird mental glitch, where if somebody notices something, you conclude they have to approve of it.
This seems tough (to an admitted IANAL). Though I think the shirt sucks, it also strikes me that the court should’ve granted cert.
Pretty cool how these learned and impartial justices can decide a case (assuming it was granted cert) without such burdensome things as briefs, oral arguments, etc. Even cooler if all the justices adopted same approach, appellants and appellees could save a fortune in legal fees, just supply a copy of the appeals decision to SCOTUS and two rubber stamps, "Affirmed" or "Reversed."
By this logic, the Court should be forced to take every case to make sure they are fully briefed on the topic before making any sort of decision on it.
Just to be clear: My intended point was that -- in a more perfect world -- appellate judges/ justices shouldn't determine the outcome in advance of pleadings, hearings, etc. They should keep an open mind, something these guys clearly don't have.
You forgot the "IANAL" in your comment. Check out huskerdru in the comment above yours for an example of how to use it.
I predict that hate speech will continue in middle school despite the well-meaning efforts of school administrators to tamp it down and the nihilistic efforts of righties to pour kerosene on it.
The efforts were not well-meaning. They allowed hate speech on one side of the issue, but not the other.
What do you define as hate speech?
I believe in free speech. The schools should not be taking sides in culture wars. If one side is hate speech, then so is the other.
A meaningless appeal to symmetry.
What do you define as hate speech, other than 'both sides?"
ScottK may think there's hate speech, but the OP doesn't seem to think so.
People seem to define hate speech as what some group takes offense to.
Are you "people?"
I believe in free speech, and not punishing hate speech. You asked for a definition, and I am just telling you how the term is commonly used.
No. That is, of course, stupid. "I hate Jews" is hate speech; the "other side" — "I love Jews" — is not hate speech.
To some, saying "I love Jews" might mean endorsing genocide in Gaza.
There is nobody for whom "I love Jews" means "I endorse genocide in Gaza." You are a silly person who's insane.
Is the supreme court asking for a "better" test case to overrule Tinker?
What makes you think there are votes to overturn Tinker? No one joined Thomas's dissent in Mahanoy, after all.
To wax poetically about how this speech "demeans" people is nothing more than federal judges taking sides in the cultural war issue and squarely siding with the LGBTQ community. It is basically saying that one side is right and the other is wrong.
I thought one of the basic principles of free speech was that you are permitted to say things that are hurtful or demeaning so long as they don't meet the 1A exceptions (true threats, etc.).
As an aside, this has John Roberts' fingerprints all over it. They are going to rule for TN in the Skrmetti case so we can't go too far with the anti-trans stuff.
Roberts is bad news.
This trans stuff is not going to end well.
They ARE mentally ill.
Obviously they're mentally ill. They'd be the first to agree. That's why they need treatment.
"Dr." Ed on sexism:
How exactly do you think the certiorari process works?
How about a T-shirt making a straight-up scientific assertion with solid scientific authority and citations in support of it, like: "There are only two biological sexes that are...designated by the kinds of gametes we produce." Carole Hooven, Dept of Human Evolutionary Biology, Harvard [2021]
Would/should that pass muster under L.M. v Middleborough? OK or not OK in the opinions of Brett Bellmore, Sarcastro, and other partisans? (Not a subversive "TERF" opinion, is it?) Does substituting "biological sexes" for "genders" put it squarely within the domain of science and avoid controversy? Are biology teachers OK making such assertions?
Shouldn't it be, "Carole Hooven, formerly of the Dept of Human Evolutionary Biology, Harvard"?
And does that answer your question?
She was at Harvard when she said it and the brouhaha arose. But what about my question, that is ought the straight-forward factual nature of the statement protect it? Really, how does that offend? What is controversial to it?
As I said above, "I can see pretty reasonable reasons for the outcome going either way."
Have to agree with no hearing this case. It's perfectly legitimate for a school to regulate student clothing.
If it's done evenly. If you allow someone to wear Pride shirts, you have to allow someone to wear a Only Two Genders shirt.
Too funny. Alito and Thomas are the two people in the entire world with the least credibility when it comes to Tinker. What a sad joke.
Sometimes so-called "Pride Gear" might just be rainbow ribbons, buttons and T-Shirts. While such rainbow colored apparel is designed to support the notion "There are more than two genders", it's different than a T-Shirt saying so.
Presumably, bicolor Pink/Blue rainbow "Two Genders Gear" would raise school administration eyebrows but I suspect they wouldn't ban Pink/Blue ribbons, buttons and T-shirts. That's way to close to a Tinker no-no.