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The Case Against Judicial Deference to Executive Branch "Factual" Determinations in Alien Enemies Act Cases
Legal scholar Rebecca Ingber offers some strong arguments against deference in this context.

President Trump has been trying use the Alien Enemies Act of 1798 as a tool for mass deportation. The AEA allows detention and deportation of foreign citizens of relevant states (including legal immigrants, as well as illegal ones) "[w]henever there is a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation or government, or any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government." Multiple federal courts have ruled against Trump on the grounds that his invocation of the AEA is illegal because there is no declared war, and the activities of the Venezuelan drug gang Tren de Aragua (which Trump cites as justification for using AEA) are not an "invasion" or a "predatory incursion."
One federal judge has issued a badly flawed ruling holding that TdA's actions qualify as a "predatory incursion." But with that exception, courts have rejected the Administration's interpretation of the AEA, and there has been unanimous agreement that the meaning of terms like "invasion" is subject to judicial review and interpretation.
But some judges have held that the Administration does deserve deference on its factual determinations about whether a war, "invasion," or "predatory incursion" have occurred, and if so whether they were perpetrated by a "foreign nation or government." I previously critiqued such deference here. Legal scholar Rebecca Ingber has now published a more detailed critique in an insightful article for Just Security:
The question of who gets to make the predicate determination of whether the United States is at war or facing invasion or predatory incursion is as or more important as the assessment itself. That who should involve Congress, first and foremost, as the branch constitutionally assigned decisions to go to war. But in the case at hand, I mean, do judges get to review the president's factual assertions that the United States is at war or facing invasion or predatory incursion, or is that left entirely to the executive's discretion? This question, so framed, has implications far beyond the AEA cases. Given just how much extraordinary power the courts have recognized for the president during times of war, this power would be all-encompassing if it is left to turn on or off by the president alone – especially if the president can declare a situation is one of war or the like with no judicial check on whether that claim is completely unfounded….
Judge Haines' favoring "substantial deference" to the President's factual analysis is of a piece with years of judicial reticence to look too closely at what the President is doing when he claims war powers. Judges quite regularly question the competence of courts to "second guess" national security judgments the executive branch puts forward. As Judge Rodriguez states, they worry that the President's decisions might be based on some secret intelligence or "sensitive and confidential information" they do not have, and which they should not push the President to divulge….
This supposed expertise or information gap is one basis on which courts often defer to the executive…"
Yet while courts are often invested in the idea that there is some special process happening behind the closed doors of the executive, they are typically loath to delve behind it. As a result they defer aimlessly, often to what is simply the litigation position the executive branch puts forward in court. They may seem willfully blind to clear unconstitutional animus by the president because they are comforted that an internal, and secret, "review process undertaken by multiple Cabinet officials and their agencies" sufficed to remove its taint.
In the AEA cases, deferring to the President's expertise and secret intelligence is an especially transparent legal fiction. We have seen the publicly released work of those experts and intelligence sources, and they fundamentally undermine the President's assertions….
Moreover, not all courts have been so blindly deferential on questions of national security. Indeed, federal judges regularly adjudicate highly sensitive foreign intelligence and surveillance matters in cases before the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC); they review classified information using the Classified Information Procedures Act (CIPA) in a range of criminal cases; they adjudicate whether the military detention of alleged "enemy combatants" is lawful in Guantanamo Bay habeas cases relying on the government's classified information about an ostensibly ongoing armed conflict… In the Guantanamo habeas cases in particular I have seen firsthand how much of the government's initial assertions dissolve like sand through one's fingers in the face of adversarial process and judicial review. Our nation's history is also replete with examples of federal courts making much weightier determinations, stretching from policing the executive's use of the limited war powers granted to it by Congress in the quasi-war with France to determining the legality of Lincoln's blockade of southern ports at the outset of the Civil War….
When the President exploits the concept of war, or emergency, or national security, to claim extreme power over all aspects of our lives, we should scrutinize that power with a rigorous lens. And when we are talking about basic civil liberties – and a President's attempt to turn off constitutional due process with the flick of a pen – these questions are well within the province of the courts.
The war powers that Congress and the courts have over time granted the President are extraordinary. When the courts cede to the President absolute discretion to turn them on, this makes them virtually limitless. Today, the President claims authority to snatch people off the streets by masked federal agents and ship them to a foreign gulag, in the name of an invasion he alone has the power to name. It is almost too on the nose. This cannot possibly be a plausible exercise of the exceptional war power that the courts and Congress have long ceded to the President. But it is certainly an opportunity to rein those powers in.
I agree completely! The key point here is that an unreviewable power to make a "factual" determination that a war or an "invasion" has occurred turns into an unreviewable power to wield vast authorities intended to be limited to wartime emergency situations anytime the president wants. For example, in the event of a real "invasion" the federal government the power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus, thereby authorizing detention without due process for migrants and US citizens, alike.
And, as Prof. Ingber emphasizes, claims to deference based on superior expertise should be viewed with great skepticism, especially in a situation like this one where the appeal to expertise is a transparent pretext. The Administration has in fact ignored the expert conclusions of its own intelligence agencies, and fired those experts who dared to tell the Boss things he didn't want to hear.
I would add that specialized expertise isn't much needed to ascertain the existence of a genuine "invasion" or "predatory incursion," when these concepts are properly defined as military attacks, rather than mere illegal migration or drug smuggling. Such assaults are anything but subtle or hard to detect! Perhaps deference is still appropriate in close, ambiguous cases. But it is not justified in situations where the presence or absence of a military attack is pretty obvious. That is, in fact, our situation right now.
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Congress has had plenty of time to consider this, to review it. Is that acquiescing to the president? This is not relying on "emergency" laws. This is relying on a determination by the political branches.
President Trump has had plenty of time to consider asking Congress to declare war on Venezuela, as contemplated in Article I, § 3, ¶11 of the Constitution. That he has not done so is a silence which speaks loudly.
He hasn’t been silent. He has found a predatory incursion under the AEA, and taken appropriate measures.
That was my reaction: The judiciary not being entitled to double guess the executive in this area doesn't mean the executive faces no checks, it's Congress' job, not the judiciary's.
Home addresses, Deep State, Dem attack dog judges. We are sending the gangs to your street. Let us know if there is no invasion. The idea of the Democrat is to import bodies to make our nation a permanent one-party state. These America haters want to destroy our nation from within as spelled out in their Commie domination book.
I checked Amazon, and it seems they don't carry the "Commie Domination Book" that you're referring to. I'm going to check some used-book stores, so please provide us with the citation to exact location in the book where it spells out how the "haters" want to destroy our nation from within. Thank you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_march_through_the_institutions
See also the "Fifth Column", as used/claimed by many leftist groups over the last century.
How stupid does one have to be to think that discussion of a Commie domination book means that is the literal title?
Neither of those things have anything to do with immigration? Maybe there's a different book we should be reading.
These are the 45 Communist Goals read into the Congressional Record in 1963. These have been completely achieved by the Democrat Party. https://www.hiddendominion.com/45-communist-goals-congressional-record-1963/
1. U.S. should accept coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. should be willing to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament by the U.S. would be a demonstration of “moral strength.”
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extend long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China and admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev’s promise in 1955 to settle the Germany question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the U.S. has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces.
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the U.S.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions, by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations that are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV & motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all form of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to “eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings,” substituting shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums.” Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.”
24.Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural and healthy.”
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a “religious crutch.”
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the grounds that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state”
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American founding fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the “common man.”
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of “the big picture.” Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture – education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand or treat.
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special interest groups should rise up and make a “united force” to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connally Reservation so the U.S. cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over nations and individuals alike.
Hi, MoreCurious. Here is a list of publications to get you started.
1. The Death of the West by Patrick J. Buchanan (2002)
Thesis: Buchanan argues that massive immigration, low birth rates among Westerners, and cultural decay are leading to the decline of Western civilization.
Cultural Marxism: He explicitly discusses how left-wing intellectuals (e.g., the Frankfurt School) promoted ideas that weakened traditional Western values, and he links immigration to this decline.
Quote: "The West is dying. Its nations have ceased to reproduce, and its populations are aging, dying, and being replaced by immigrants from the Third World."
2. The Strange Death of Europe by Douglas Murray (2017)
Focus: Primarily on Europe, but relevant to the U.S. debate.
Thesis: Argues that Europe is committing cultural suicide through mass immigration and self-denial of its values.
Connection to Cultural Marxism: While Murray doesn’t often use the phrase “Cultural Marxism,” he echoes similar concerns: that multiculturalism and leftist ideologies have paralyzed the West's ability to defend itself.
Tone: More academic than Buchanan, but still strongly ideological.
3. The War Against the West by William Lind (Various writings, especially essays)
Lind did not publish a book titled The War Against the West, but he’s a leading proponent of the Cultural Marxism theory.
In speeches and essays (many of which were collected or quoted in books), Lind links mass immigration to a Marxist agenda to erode national identity and Christian values.
Lind attributes much of this strategy to the Frankfurt School of Marxist thinkers.
4. Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America by William S. Lind (2019 pamphlet-style book)
This shorter book directly ties mass immigration, multiculturalism, and political correctness to a Marxist effort to destabilize Western civilization.
Often cited in far-right and traditionalist circles.
Was Pancho Villa sufficiently connected with the government of Mexico such that his raid was a government sponsored invasion or predatory incursion? Should federal courts have had the power to issue an injunction against Wilson's expedition into Mexico to find him?
Irrelevant. The President did not invoke the Alien Enemies Act over it, so there was no need to construe the Act’s terms. And of course Mexicans IN MEXICO have no constitutional rights, so they had no right to file any sort of lawsuit over it. No basis for a court case of any kind so no reason for a court to decide the question.
Okay, but the way Pancho Villa was handled is that the army shot the invaders, then chased them all the way back to Mexico, kept shooting and only turned back after they ran out of ammunition. If we could do that now, then great, but I suspect the courts would also find something to complain about.
No.
On what grounds?
it's explainThe Court’s research for judicial decisions that utilized “predatory incursion” during the
relevant time period returned only two results. In both usages, the courts referenced “predatory
incursions” to describe conduct by Native Americans, in one instance as part of an “Indian war”
and in the other in connection with the authority of a military officer. See Huidekoper’s Lessee v.
Douglass, 3 Cranch 1, 7 U.S. 1, * 7 (1805) (explaining the passage of a statute as motivated by the
fact that “an Indian war existed on [Pennsylvania’s] frontier[,]” and the state’s population were
“bound by their dearest interests to watch and repel the predatory incursions of the Indians”);
Russell’s Lessee v. Baker, 1 H. & J. 71, 1800 WL 441, at *6 (Gen. Ct. Maryland 1800) (“But it does
not follow under this grant of power that he had a right to declare war or make peace; for there is
no instance of a captain general of an army having the power, as captain general, to do either. The
powers, granted under this section of the charter were granted to guard against and repel the
predatory incursions of the Indians . . . and to prevent and to suppress insurrections[.]”)ed i the cases that
How many times a day can Somin post anti-Trump rants? I get it. He hates Trump. He hates America. He likes promoting his Marxist ideology.
Please say what in this post is Marxist? And hating Trump is loving America. Those two go together. 8647
Somin is against USA sovereignty, and in favor of forcing Americans to put up with unwanted foreigners.
Roger S, of which Native American tribe are you a member?
Yes, I am a native American, with allegiance to the USA.
Native Americans were Stone Age savages. They took no prisoners except for blonde girls to use as sex slaves. No conquered people have been treated as well as they have by white, Christian conquerors. They were not killed, not enslaved, as all other conquered people were to that point. They got sovereign territories, instead.
That sounds like a fascinating history book that you're reading. For those of us who want to master history as taught by Mr. Supremacy Clause, please tell us the name of the book where you learned what you wrote about Native Americans. Thanks.
Autobiography of Red Cloud: War Leader of the Oglalas
The US sued him for peace and accepted his terms. He beat Army ass, real good. He allowed them to abandon their fort and his land, without killing more than the 81 he had.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cloud
not guilty, when did you move back to your continent of ancestral origin?
In the words of John Henry Wigmore, cross-examination is “beyond any doubt the greatest legal engine ever invented for the discovery of truth.” 3 Wigmore, Evidence §1367, p. 27 (2d ed. 1923).
If the facts about Tren de Aragua and Venezuela are what President Trump claims, why is his administration unwilling to send anyone to court, to raise his right hand and swear to tell the truth, and to submit to the crucible of cross-examination?
The adversarial system has zero external validation. It is a garbage methodology, cool in 1275 AD, absolute garbage today. It results in a high false conviction rate. 99% of crimes go unpunished. The trial should be run by an investigating judge. He should be liable for his mistakes, and for his false convictions.
The 20 million illegales entered without due process. 20 million trials employing 3 lawyers each is ridiculous rent seeking by the lawyer. Then there would be multiple levels of appeal for each, say 3. That would be 60 million trials and 180 million jobs for the lawyer profession. The purpose would be to delay the return of these illegals and their being counted by the Census, to pump up the number of Democrat Representatives. All would be fast tracked to citizenship and Democrat registration. Our nation would become a permanent one-party state, as Venezuela, Cuba, and San Fran are. All are unlivable shitholes run by DEI people. That is the fate that awaits us.
You are right that it is not practical to hold trials for every deportation.
"The 20 million illegales entered without due process. 20 million trials employing 3 lawyers each is ridiculous rent seeking by the lawyer. Then there would be multiple levels of appeal for each, say 3. That would be 60 million trials and 180 million jobs for the lawyer profession. The purpose would be to delay the return of these illegals and their being counted by the Census, to pump up the number of Democrat Representatives. All would be fast tracked to citizenship and Democrat registration. Our nation would become a permanent one-party state, as Venezuela, Cuba, and San Fran are. All are unlivable shitholes run by DEI people. That is the fate that awaits us."
Is that as true as everything else you have said, Supremacy Claus? Let's break things down a bit.
Where do you get your 20 million figure? From that noted authority, Otto Yourazz? Compare, https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/22/what-we-know-about-unauthorized-immigrants-living-in-the-us/ Of the 11 million or so illegal immigrants who in fact are here, how many of them will continue to avoid apprehension? Half? Two thirds?
Of those who are apprehended and as to whom deportation proceedings are begun, how many of them will reach an agreement to be returned to their native country? (Especially among those who are locked up while awaiting a hearing.) Most of the illegals came here in search of a better life for themselves and/or to send money to their families back home -- each of which is hard to do from a cell.
Where do you get the idea that a full blown trial is required for each immigrant? "[T]he Fifth Amendment entitles aliens to due process of law in deportation proceedings." Reno v. Flores, 507 U.S. 292, 306 (1993). That does not necessarily include trial before an Article III federal judge. Because "an alien in civil removal proceedings is not entitled to the same bundle of constitutional rights afforded defendants in criminal proceedings ... various protections that apply in the context of a criminal trial do not apply in a deportation hearing." Hussain v. Rosen, 985 F.3d 634, 642 (9th Cir. 2021).
Because deportation proceedings are civil in nature, there is no constitutional right to counsel. By statute, "the alien shall have the privilege of being represented, at no expense to the Government, by counsel of the alien's choosing who is authorized to practice in such proceedings." 8 U.S.C. § 1229a(b)(4)(A). Per § 1229a(b)(4)(B), "the alien shall have a reasonable opportunity to examine the evidence against the alien, to present evidence on the alien's own behalf, and to cross-examine witnesses presented by the Government . . ." A complete record shall be kept of all testimony and evidence produced at the proceeding. § 1229a(b)(4)(C). All of this can be accomplished in an administrative hearing before an Immigration Judge.
Judicial review of eligibility determinations is quite limited and deferential. 8 U.S.C. § 1252. See also, Hussain, 985 F.3d at 641-642.
The suggestion that each alien will be represented by three lawyers is downright ludicrous. The most common characteristic of illegal immigrants likely is poverty. Collecting fees is a matter that most lawyers take quite seriously. (FWIW, there are a bit more than 1.3 million lawyers in the entire United States, according to the American Bar Association.)
I think it’s important to clarify what is meant by “deference.” There’s a big difference between applying a deferential reciew standard, such as the substantial evidence standard, and accepting the President’s word without review.
In Ludecke v. Watkins, the Supreme Court as I read it applied something like the substantial evidence standard. It said the facts supporting the claim WWII was still continuing - not just a formally declared war and the absence of a peace treaty, but the continued activity of large armies of occupation in Central Europe - were sufficient to satisfy judicial review. Its review was somewhat deferential to the administration, but not completely toothless.
I think that’s the correct standard.
I think we should generally not have judges second-guess expert factual claims. I think they shouldn't have touched Chevron deference. So, a high standard of deference is sensible on some basic level. Judges second-guessing military and foreign policy is dubious.
That would not be total deference.
Also, a presumption of regularity can be revoked in various cases, and clear evidence is apparent that it has been here.
We can see this is a mundane case -- police are generally trusted in determining "reasonable" searches and seizures.
But if we have a good reason not to trust the police's impartiality, the calculus can and should change. When the result is not putting a person in a domestic jail but a foreign torture prison with no chance of return, the stakes are that much higher.
(That shouldn't be the case. The Administration should not claim that. It goes to breach of the presumption of regularity.)
Anyway, as noted in the OP, judges can get Trump on the legal meaning of the terms involved (invasion, etc.), so the matter is somewhat a "moo case" to quote Joey from Friends.
What “expert factual claims” are involved in Trump’s AEA proclamation? The CIA report completely undercut Trump’s assertions. truno did not consult any expertise of any kind before asserting what he did. Not even Trump’s lawyers are claiming he did. They are claiming not that Trump is factually correct, but that his word is legally unreviewable and its truth is irrelevant and cannot be inquired into.
So, applying my criteria, which does not provide "total deference," there would just be "assertions" without "expertise" that claims "unreviewable deference." Even without going into the evidence of bad faith and so forth, Trump will not have a good time of it.
To clear up any confusion, my comment did not go into what "expert factual claims" Trump provides. My general comments would not lead the average regular reader to think I trust the Administration much to provide credible facts on much of anything.
"I would add that specialized expertise isn't much needed to ascertain the existence of a genuine "invasion" or "predatory incursion," when these concepts are properly defined as military attacks, rather than mere illegal migration or drug smuggling. Such assaults are anything but subtle or hard to detect! Perhaps deference is still appropriate in close, ambiguous cases. But it is not justified in situations where the presence or absence of a military attack is pretty obvious. That is, in fact, our situation right now."
This is true. It's abundantly obvious that this is an alien invasion, to which the optimal solution is machine gun fire and the overly nice solution is merely expulsion. The only thing that makes it even arguably NOT an invasion is that the enemy soldiers are in civilian clothes rather than military uniforms. But that doesn't make it not an invasion, it makes them war criminals. Irregular militia is invading the country, occupying our territory, and plundering our resources. The response of the judiciary is that we must allow them to do so, because of theoretical uncertainty that an invasion is in fact an invasion.
Most of the people detained under the AEA proclamation so far are ordinary Venezualians who had committed no crimes and had no connection with any criminal organization. Many were detained solely because ICE agents didn’t like the look of their tattoos. There was no factual basis for calling them soldiers, war criminals, or any of the other names you are calling them.
The CIA report said TdA is an ordinary criminal organization who are not engaging in any military activity and have no connection with the Venezualian government. Even the criminals are just criminals, not soldiers or militia members.
I know you're the loon who thinks prisons are too cushy, but I didn't think you were totally dishonest, too.
there's nothing even remotely resembling an invasion. TdA, to the extent that they're here at all — the administration seems remarkably incapable of providing any evidence to that effect — are criminals. They're not attacking us. They're not trying to establish the Republic of Aragua in Arizona. They're selling drugs. I know Trump thinks that imports are inherently an attack on the country, but that's just because he's economically illiterate.
The "response of our judiciary" is that anyone who commits a crime can be prosecuted, and anyone here illegally can be deported. But that the Mad King cannot lie about an invasion and lie about people being members of a gang and summarily send people to a foreign concentration camp without bothering to prove anything.
AEA "against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government.”
Now what does 'foreign nation' mean ? Certainly not its government since it is listed separately.
Could it mean any of its people ?
No it couldn’t. Its meaning is clear enough.
Clear enough for government work, amirite?
"when these concepts are properly defined as military attacks,"
So, the courts should do as you want, once constrained to operate according to your own premises?
I think how these concepts are properly defined is actually up to the elected branches, not the judiciary. Since Congress can declare war, Congress can declare whether a war exists.
Words mean things.
You have a habit of insisting there is ambiguity that requires executive findings.
Kind of the opposite of your position about the Constitution.
You are perhaps the last person on this site who is entitled to say "Words mean things".
I think that the branch that can declare war, can declare IF war. And that branch isn't the judicial.
Mind, it isn't the executive, either...
The OP says executive.
You said political branches and Congress.
Don’t play games.
In a masochistic moment I clicked on Somin’s link to where he tells us the proper definition of these terms is to be found.
I admit I skimmed it very quickly, but I didn’t spot anything in it about “predatory incursions” at all.
To my mind “predatory incursions” easily includes non military incursions. Cattle raiding or raids to steal women, piracy if done in port or coastal settlements - these are all predatory incursions.
Nor is there even any necessity for the predators to be armed. Cattle can easily be rustled by unarmed men. Women too.
Those hunting for limitations on the AEA are much more likely find them in the bit about nations and governments.
Easily!
I don't really understand your point here. If you're agreeing, as your last statement implies, that "the bit about nations and governments" is a meaningful restriction, then aren't you just quibbling about what "predatory incursion" could mean in a totally abstract sense unrelated to the AEA? If you want to argue that private cattle rustling could be described as a predatory incursion, but not one to which the AEA applies, then, I mean, whatever; I'm not going to argue. I don't think it really is the best reading of the AEA to break it up into two separate things — (1) is it an incursion, and (2) is it by a foreign country — rather than just reading it as 'a predatory incursion by a foreign nation,' but at the end of the day it doesn't change much.
To understand the AEA, though, I think it's important not to lose sight of the forest for the trees. The purpose and effect of the AEA is not to empower the president to deal with foreign attacks/attackers. There are plenty of other laws that do that. The purpose of the AEA is to allow the U.S. government, when we're in conflict with a foreign country, to expel citizens of that country who have not personally engaged in any wrongdoing. (Again, there are plenty of other laws out there to deal with those who have engaged in wrongdoing.) It empowers the government, if we go to war with (say) Great Britain, to round up all the British citizens in the U.S., so that they can't potentially aid the British war effort against us. (The War of 1812 was one of the three times it was invoked before now.) The government wouldn't need to prove that any person rounded up actually was aiding the British war effort, or even that it was likely that the person would. (The law allows for faster deportation if the person actually was engaged in such acts. Otherwise, the person is to be allowed time to wrap up his affairs before leaving.)
So interpreting it as applying to cattle rustling in the abstract is pointless. Unless it's being done by a foreign government, the AEA doesn't do anything in that context.
Strange. If you were indicted for a crime defined as “threatening a police officer with a weapon” would you not expect the prosecution to have to prove all three parts - that the person you allegedly threatened was a police officer, that what you did amounted to a threat, and that the implement you deployed was a weapon ?
In the case of the AEA in order for the invocation to be lawful both of your (1) and (2) must be met.
I’m just refuting Somin’s handwaving about (1). I’m not addressing (2).
So cattle rustling in Texas by a rancher based in Mexico, without the knowledge, approval, connivance etc of the Mexican government fails. (Or strictly of any nation or government, since the French could be the instigators after all.) But it fails because of (2) not (1.)
But it’s perfectly possible for cattle rustling to be done with the knowledge, approval or connivance etc of a foreign government. That’s a fact question separate from the predatory incursion question. Is it really the case that lawyers in court try to persuade the judge of all parts of a multi conditional statutory provision all at once rather than piece by piece ? In a logic class you’d get your fingers whacked with a ruler. But hey, the ways of the law and the ways of logic are hardly close friends.
As to the supposed purpose of the AEA, I prefer as always, to start with text, and reach for supposed purposes only in the extremis of otherwise unresolvable ambiguity.
That's a terribly written hypothetical statute! It could be read as "threatening a (police officer with a weapon)" or "(threatening a police officer) with a weapon." But what I'm saying — and ultimately it makes little difference — is that it's more naturally read as a unitary thing: an invasion by a foreign country. If your hypothetical law banned "brandishing a weapon against a police officer," we would not interpret that as requiring (1) brandishing; (2) a weapon; and (3) a police officer, because "brandishing a weapon" is a single unit.
As for your second point, I am not searching for supposed purposes; I am talking about the text itself, what the law actually does. The law empowers — again, text, not purpose — the government to deport citizens, peaceful and friendly or otherwise, of a foreign country with which we are engaged in a war, or that has invaded/attacked us.
There would be nobody to apply the AEA against in a cattle rustling scenario.
“brandishing a weapon” has two elements. Obviously. The brandishing. And the weapon.
Thus if you do not brandish a weapon but use it unbrandished - eg by creeping up behind the police officer and hitting him on the head with an axe, you’re not guilty (of that offense.) Not because there’s no weapon but because you haven’t brandished it. Correspondingly if what you brandish at the police officer is a photo of his kids being held by your gang, you’re not brandishing a weapon. You’re brandishing a photo. Again not guilty.
I can’t imagine why you think there would be no one to apply the AEA to, if the cattle rustling was done by agents of the French government. The AEA could be applied to any French citizen. Ditto for the Apaches.
Indeed the cattle rustling may only be threatened not actually performed.
What if you had a hypothetical nation-state so failed that the government was powerless to prevent indisputable predatory incursions by private citizens up and down the border causing great loss of life and property damage.
Could there be a point where the failure of the government is so great that one could or should impute the lawlessness and predatory incursions to the government? I'm not saying that's what we have here; I'm just putting forth the theory.
Think something along the lines of a malice murder doctrine. You didn't mean to kill but your actions or failure to act was so depraved that we will infer the intent from your actions or inactions.
Then what exactly would be the point of rounding up citizens of that country who reside here?
The fear that those people are part of the lawless people of that country who are sympathetic to the predatory incursions.
Never mind. He’s changing the subject because he doesn’t choose to address your hypo. Which is essentially about how we are to interpret the “by a foreign nation or government” bit, and in particular the word “by” in that context.
But I will. I could buy the foreign nation or government’s encouragement of, connivance in, giving safe harbor to, profiting by, arming, assisting etc the predatory incursions of its citizens (or indeed anybody else) as falling within the meaning of “by.”
But not mere impotence.
So for example if Israel was part of the United States then any predatory incursions by Hamas, Hezbollah or the Houthis would probably qualify as “by” the government of Iran, since the three Hs though they are not divisions of the Iranian government, are clients and agents of it.
It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.
The key point here is that an unreviewable power to make a "factual" determination that a war or an "invasion" has occurred turns into an unreviewable power to wield vast authorities intended to be limited to wartime emergency situations anytime the president wants.
And the cultists approve of the president having that power, as long as the president is Trump.
Once again Ilya ignores and misrepresents on the AEA.
1-He claims that only a declared war can trigger the AEA and ignores the laws statement " any foreign nation or government, or any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government."
Mexico allowing twenty million people to cross our mutual border is certain a predatory incursion perpetrated by a foreign nation or government.
2-Ilya, as he does in all his AEA arguments, refuses to recognize what a "declared war" was in 1798 when the act was passed. A declared war in 1798 was America arming privateers, issuing letters of marque against a foreign nation in the Quasi War raging in 1798. The fact the act was passed in the 1798 proves beyond any doubt that the meaning of a declared war was different then than the way Ilya uses the phrase.
He did not. Why are you lying?
It did not. Why are you lying?
It is not. Why are you lying? (Even Trump doesn't claim this!)
This is stupid in so many ways, by a completely uneducated person who read one sentence from Wikipedia and thought he understood a topic.
1) A declared war in 1798 meant exactly the same thing it does today: a government says "We hereby declare war against you."
2) If a declared war meant what you thought it meant, then there would have been no need to add invasion/predatory incursion to the AEA.
3) They did not invoke the AEA wrt the Quasi War.
Everyone seems to be having fun storming the castle, parsing obscure 18th. c. statutory titles, etc. But if I tell you that I'm going to imprison you on the basis of an expired traffic-based warrant and then ship you to a third country where you will be kept in savage and inhuman imprisonment for the rest of your natural life, and you focus 98 pages out of your 100 page pro se Habeas brief dictated in a series of panicked lunch-hour calls over a jail pay-phone in Texas on the expired nature of the warrant, I might be inclined to think that you might have a fool for a client.
This is the same arcana trick as the emoluments clause. Don't have the debate your opponent wants you to have. If you're in the thick of things, challenge the deportations of those legally here, under the sovereign's peace, etc. -- without even so much as a hearing, to lifetime imprisonment in a third contry to which the person is a complete stranger, and if you want to argue the 18th c. statutory title, add a subpoint or two.
Or, you know, have fun storming the castles in the aire.
Mr. D.