The Volokh Conspiracy
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"Harvard University Loses Student and Exchange Visitor Program Certification for Pro-Terrorist Conduct"
"This means Harvard can no longer enroll foreign students and existing foreign students must transfer or lose their legal status."
So the Department of Homeland Security announced today. A few tentative thoughts; if it turns out that I have erred in my understanding of the facts or of the program, I'll update them as necessary:
[1.] Unsurprisingly, student and exchange visitor visas are issued only to people who can show that they really are students and exchange visitors, and at recognized institutions that fulfill the visa program's goals. There are therefore procedures both for certifying and decertifying educational institutions as eligible for the Student and Exchange Visitor Program.
[2.] Equally unsurprisingly, institutions have to provide various information about students and the students' conduct. The DHS letter claims that:
On April 16, 2025, Secretary Noem demanded Harvard provide information about the criminality and misconduct of foreign students on its campus. Secretary Noem warned refusal to comply with this lawful order would result in SEVP termination….
Harvard University brazenly refused to provide the required information requested and ignored a follow up request from the Department's Office of General Council. Secretary Noem is following through on her promise to protect students and prohibit terrorist sympathizers from receiving benefits from the U.S. government.
I can't speak to what Harvard's alleged failures were, or whether they are sufficient under the statute to justify decertifying it.
[3.] At the same time, as with other broadly available benefits, the government generally can't deny them based on the viewpoints that Harvard expresses, declines to express, or tolerates and indirectly supports. And the letter suggests that the government's actions stem at least in part from such viewpoints. Consider, for instance, the list of "Facts about Harvard's toxic campus climate":
- A joint-government task force found that Harvard has failed to confront pervasive race discrimination and anti-Semitic harassment plaguing its campus.
- Jewish students on campus were subject to pervasive insults, physical assault, and intimidation, with no meaningful response from Harvard's leadership.
- A protester charged for his role in the assault of a Jewish student on campus was chosen by the Harvard Divinity School to be the Class Marshal for commencement.
- Harvard's own 2025 internal study on anti-Semitism revealed that almost 60% of Jewish students reported experiencing "discrimination, stereotyping, or negative bias on campus due to [their] views on current events."
- In one instance, a Jewish student speaker at a conference had planned to tell the story of his Holocaust survivor grandfather finding refuge in Israel. Organizers told the student the story was not "tasteful" and laughed at him when he expressed his confusion. They said the story would have justified oppression.
- Meanwhile, Pro-Hamas student groups that promoted antisemitism after the October 7 attacks remained recognized and funded.
Some of these behaviors are of course not protected by the First Amendment (e.g., "physical assault"). On the other hand, "promoting antisemitism" and being "pro-Hamas" is protected by the First Amendment. The same is true of laughing at people who want to tell stories about their Holocaust survivor family members is protected by the First Amendment, as is excluding them from a a program (whether run by a student group or by the private university) unless they change their message.
Choosing someone to honor as Class Marshal is also expression, even when the person chosen is being charged for assault—just as, for instance, an anti-abortion institution would be exercising its First Amendment rights by honoring someone who was accused of punching an abortion clinic employee. People may well condemn such expression, but I don't think the government can strip a university of participation in the program based on such expression.
[4.] More broadly, even if the DHS hadn't mentioned the university's or student groups' constitutionally protected speech, and instead focused just on nonspeech conduct, the government may not selectively enforce even speech-neutral rules in ways that deliberately target people or institutions based on their constitutionally protected speech. (See, e.g., Hoye v. City of Oakland (9th Cir. 2011), which held that the City's viewpoint-discriminatory enforcement of an ordinance in a way that targeted anti-abortion speakers violated the First Amendment.) Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that the targeting of Harvard here has more to do with Harvard's ideological stances, including its opposition to past Administration demands, than with an evenhanded, content-neutral enforcement of reporting requirements, antidiscrimination rules, and the like.
In any event, I hope Harvard fights this, quite likely with a request for a preliminary injunction. The court will at that point presumably have more facts on what exactly Harvard allegedly did wrong, and why the Administration actually targeted Harvard; I look forward to seeing what is disclosed in that process.
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I got emails and texts from Germany, Russia, and New Zealand already. A mix of ridicule, pity, and shock. America is--in their eyes--a laughingstock and the target of scorn. (Which is not to say that Trump's policies are not right or wrong. Merely, that they are absolutely not winning the hearts and minds of normal people in other countries, for what that's worth.)
Why would or should any reasonable person care about what people in those countries think.
They can laugh when they've achieve perfection.
We care only because Trump keeps talking about how important it is that America is respected abroad again. It puts the lie to this claim/boast. (If you agree that it's utter bullshit that America is more respected now than before Trump became President again, then I agree it's not terribly relevant.)
SM. You are a woke. You and your friends hate America. You are dirty.
De-exempt, defund, de-accredit Harvard. Shut it down. Seize its assets in civil forfeiture. To deter.
Heil Trump?
It is better to be feared than ridiculed.
No one fears a confused dotard, or a bumbling bunch of fascists, either.
That’s why the DemoKKKrats lost
Apparently when the news broke, SMs foreign friends rushed to the keyboard and emailed SM to express their European disapproval.
Because that's what's an important to Europeans.
Edit:
And his friends all over the world!
I wish I had friends I could email in the UK or Euroland when breaking local news happens so they can be notified of my very important opinion about their shithole country.
If you had friends; perhaps they would sometimes write you and give you their perspectives, thoughts, and feedback, when interesting things happen that affect(ed) them. 🙂
What happens in other countries doesn't cause me to rush to a keyboard and email residents of that country.
That seems mentally ill to be so martinned2'd about a foreign nation.
It is weird. I have friends (even family) in foreign countries, and they send me pictures of their kids, news about mutual acquaintances, etc. They don't send me reactions to every political event.
Gee. I too have friends and family in foreign countries, and my usual exchanges with them are as TiP describes,
But if there is a natural or political catastrophe in either country the subject is quite likely to come up.
Travelled to Europe lately? They'll be happy to tell you what they think of Trump and his bumbling, fascist henchmen.
And the guys in the Middle East are happy to tell you what they think of gay marriage.
Ooooooh!
...and all you have to do is look at the recent elections in the EU to figure out whether or not Europeans "care" about Trump.
“They don't send me reactions to every political event.”
So they do to some.
“my usual exchanges with them are as TiP describes,
But if there is a natural or political catastrophe in either country the subject is quite likely to come up.”
So actually you guys agree.
But, hey, Western nations being appalled over this is totes the same as Middle Eastern ones being mad over SSM.
I guess it would appear that no one I know overseas thought that Trump's actions with respect to Harvard was a natural or political catastrophe.
Why should we care that America’s soft power—the primary source of our wealth and power as a Nation—is being destroyed? I would think the answer is obvious.
...and friends in Argentina, and Mexico, and Canada.
You and your friends are dirty.
Considering your own views, one can make guesses about what kinds of people would send you emails and texts disparaging this Harvard action. A nice self-selected sample is hardly convincing evidence of anything but the existence of echo chambers.
A fair point.
All right, who hijacked your handle?
"I got emails and texts from...Russia..."
Really? Do tell all about your comrade's texts.
See, you're technically asking for details. But methinks, you're not *really* interested in what my товарищ has to say on the subject.
I think Putin is really really happy with what Trump is doing to America. I think the typical Russian is just as appalled as is the typical German, Brit, Canadian, Australian, Spaniard, Malaysian, Sri Lankan, et al. Your mileage may vary.
Oh, but I do want to know what your tovarishch has to say, in depth. It would be most informative.
"But methinks, you're not *really* interested in what my товарищ has to say on the subject."
You have an old-school Soviet comrade?
“you're technically asking for details. But methinks, you're not *really* interested in what my товарищ has to say on the subject”
I see you’ve met Armchair.
If you had ever been forced to use a toilet in Germany or Russia you wouldn't care what Germans or Russians think about, well, anything. New Zealand doesn't matter and never will.
I've used toilets in 50 cities and towns throughout Germany. All were stellar. (Your point about Russian toilets, however, is accurate . . . although that could apply to my experiences in China, and India, and Vietnam, and Burma, and Sudan, and Tibet, and Pakistan, and part of Bolivia, and most of Honduras, and Indonesia, and Egypt and (you get my point).
New Zealand invented the pavlova, so you could not be more wrong about that country. Period, full stop.
Europeans have always been bellyaching about US policies.
So 2 countries we've kicked ass on in multiple wars (Russia, admittedly a cold war) and New Zealand who's Air Force has a total of 51 Aircraft, none of them Fighters, an Army of 4,700 Soldiers (there will be more Amurican Soliders passing through Atlanta-Hartsfield-Zimbabwe Airport this weekend), No Tanks, and a Navy with 11 ships. Can you spell "Irreverent"??
Frank
Oh, no.
Somehow, we'll all just have to find the strength and courage to go on with our lives knowing that "normal people" in Germany, Russia, and New Zealand are laughing at America.
I guess they better brace themselves for the giant influx of foreign students as they get chosen over American universities.
They might want to beef up their security, because a lot of those folks are assholes. Best of luck!
Secretary Noem is flexing her constitutional authority under the habeas corpus clause.
I love when Kristi flexes.
And I’d love to habeus her corpus
This is absurd, tyrannical, behavior by Noem, who is either sucking up to Trump or following his orders. Maybe she hopes to be Vance's running mate in 2028.
The sheer destructiveness of Trump and MAGA is a major threat to the country. It needs to be stopped. The judiciary, contra Josh Blackman, is starting to figure it out. Being something of an optimist, I sort of hope that Republicans in Congress start to put their duty to the country ahead of their fealty to Trump.
We are destroying the country by not letting foreign terrorists attend Harvard!
Question. Are the terrorists such as Rodrigues radicalized before they arrive at Harvard, or does Harvard professors do the job once they arrive, enroll, and are immersed in Marxism/Communism/Socialism, and anti-semitic instruction?
Rodriguez?
The guy who killed two Israeli Embassy staffers? What does he have to do with Harvard? According to NBC he was born in Chicago and went to the the U. of Illinois at Chicago.
I have no idea when or where he was radicalized, but it wasn't at Harvard.
does (sic) Harvard professors do the job once they arrive, enroll, and are immersed in Marxism/Communism/Socialism, and anti-semitic instruction?
Are you a total idiot, or only half? What do you think goes on in Harvard classes?
They all look alike...
Got news for you, bud. ALL politicians flex their muscles for their own benefit.
Noem's habeas corpus is comedy gold, and I hope she runs for office and her opponents play that back. But she's hardly the first politician to be dumber than a ballot box.
Yup. People hassled Barret for not being able to name the freedoms the 1A protects, few noticed that the dude asking the question got it wrong too.
The current Secretary deporting “enemies” gets habeas wrong, but hey a Republican Senator who showed a GOP SCOTUS nominee was wrong about the 1st was wrong himself! This stretch at whataboutism is like Reed Richard’s levels.
Thank you.
It's fun, like teasing a grammar Nazi who, himself, got something wrong.
ALL politicians flex their muscles for their own benefit.
Sure they do. But most of them don't go around promoting ignorance like Noem.
I see she criticized two studies which I suppose were done by Harvard faculty, though she doesn't say so. What are the chances she read and understood them, rather than hearing about them from some RW moron who didn't read them either?
Do you mean Trump?
Here's one certain conclusion : If there was ever any doubt which side of the political divide would betray our democracy to dictatorship, these months have settled that. I don't say Trump has us there despite his all lawless behavior, contempt for the Constitution, and autocratic aims.
But what's eye-opening is the applause Trump gets for each destructive or illegal move by right-wing politicians and his supporters here or elsewhere. Those who aren't simple cowards are actually cheering as Trump shreds the Constitution, ignores clear law, and destroys every institutional check or safeguard against imperial executive power. Many - particularly some commenters here - clearly think it's fun to see our democracy destroyed. There's little indication they wouldn't keep cheering right up to kingship or full dictatorial powers. That seems to be the way they're wired.
On an totally different level, it will be interesting to track Professor Volokh's passion and staying power on this particular topic. As I recall, some students behaving rudely at Stanford once rated 10-12 separate VC posts as a freedom of speech issue. I would think this situation rates equal attention at the very least.
“I can't speak to what Harvard's alleged failures were, or whether they are sufficient under the statute to justify decertifying it.”
If you’re looking for a profile in courage— this ain’t the place. Eugene knows what he’s doing.
You don't remember Clinton's, Obama's, and Biden's supporters, or either Bush's? Pretending Trump is first or worst is silly.
Remember when they referred to themselves as Kings?
I'd say do what you did the first term, fight back through the courts.
But what you did the first term, and thereafter, also involved several dozen initiatives to remove him from office, charge him with innumerable crimes, arrest him, jail him, remove him from the ballot, boost the level of a crime to felony in pursuit of removing him from office, or the ballot, send investigative reports down to the states for state level prosecution "just in case" he pardons himself, and expropriate his estate to the tune of $500 million, like tyrant kings of yore did to uppity lords.
So, yeah. Still not sure he's the bigger threat to democracy yet, though he's making a run for it.
The standard for what is allowable for these student visas isn't just what is permissible under the 1st Amendment. Since the visas are issued as a privilege, they can be given or rescinded by the government at will. Yes, the government is required to not be arbitrary, and they are required to publish their standards. But the standards are theirs, no one else's.
When you think about it, the entirety of the DEI system works exactly like this. The government has certain ends that they wish to encourage, they issue visas to help accomplish those objectives, and as long as the objectives themselves are not illegal, what's there to say about them?
Elections have consequences. Now it's the Republicans turn to define what kind of values they want to encourage. There's nothing illicit about that.
That's the kind of thing high school drivers' ed teachers tell their students about getting their licenses. It's wrong then, and it's wrong now.
The State Department doesn't get to issue visas at will? Then who issues them, pray?
This has nothing to do with visas. DHS is purported revoking Harvard’s ability to accept foreign student that State would be more that happy to give visas in order to attend any other school.
Right. While indoctrination IS speech, the federal government isn't obligated to assist in indoctrinating people to hate the US and oppose everything we stand for. So, they'll give the visas for foreign students who want to attend schools that aren't doing that, instead of Harvard.
I wonder if people realize that this wouldn't just mean that Harvard couldn't enroll new foreign students going forward, but that the thousands of foreign students currently attending the school would immediately, in the middle of their educations, lose their school. They'd have to scramble to find another school in the U.S. or at home to admit them on no notice.
Of course, The Cruelty Is The Point™, so MAGA will just say "Ha, ha" to all those students.
DaveM, your and grb's immediately preceding top-level comments form a nice mutually-reinforcing couplet:
• You note the minority of America's voting public who did not vote against Trump, still gave him control of America's government operations, with right & ability redirect that control to new practices toward "certain ends." You also acknowledge that's only if the ends are legal, though I add practices to that, and observe you far too quickly gloss over the constraints "are legal" presents to both means & ends (i.e., it seem very unlikely that Trump will ever replace Air Force One with his Qatar Force One, or force Harvard to ban foreign students).
• grb doesn't contradict you at all, but harmonizes with your message by adding a description of both the people and the specific values you reference: "...it's the Republicans turn to define what kind of values they want to encourage." What you call "certain ends," grb summarizes as "imperial executive power," noting "Those who aren't simple cowards are actually cheering as Trump shreds the Constitution, ignores clear law, and destroys every institutional check or safeguard against imperial executive power. Many - particularly some commenters here - clearly think it's fun to see our democracy destroyed. There's little indication they wouldn't keep cheering right up to kingship or full dictatorial powers."
Again, what you gloss over as "are not illegal" are more accurately referenced by statute, title, and section upheld in federal court. So far, Trump seems to running at about a 10% success rate in court. He'd both have gotten more accomplished and his polls would likely still be above water If he had started out:
• limiting himself to that statutorily-permitted 10% instead of the illegal-under-statute 90% of Executive Orders for actions Elon (DOGE) and Voight (OMB) keep trying to force through...
• ...while presenting the Republican Congress with draft legislation for the rest.
But that's not, imperial enough, dictatorial enough for him and his followers so well described by grb.
I don't understand this squeamishness with regard to executive power and its panoply of discretion at all. Didn't the last President look the other way while 10 million people were allowed to walk across the border -- not even at legitimate ports of entry! -- claim asylum based on nothing more than their personal say-so, then be transported at taxpayer expense into the interior, given access to benefits such as free housing, provided social security numbers, and so on? Didn't that administration have the power to do those things lawfully and legally? And didn't the next administration equally have the power to reverse those choices and policies?
Look, the executive is the executive. Absent illegal actions, that office has broad discretion. Very broad.
You can tell he just finds the first example is so upsetting that it justifies any other thing he thinks falls into the same category “by the other side.” Whataboutism as a worldview!
No. This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
DaveM, your comment was basically, why are people so concerned if the new president does legal stuff?
My reply, with examples, was the president can do legal stuff but not illegal stuff. By which I mean following due process from the beginning of any action—not, as a Justice (Kagin?) just observed, starting with the assumption of "Catch me if you can!"
And your response is "I don't understand this squeamishness with regard to executive power...Absent illegal actions," followed by a rote, dull-eyed parroting of administration talking points.
A U.S. President is obligated to consistently follow due process. You seem to prefer a Caudillo who limits the need to behave legally to his opponents.
I don't think Eugene is right here. The press release he links goes into all sorts of tangents. But the underlying rationale for the action by the government is Harvard's failure to comply with valid information requests. I don't know if the requests are valid, or if Harvard really failed to comply. But the rest of the press release is basically explaining why the government thought it urgent that Harvard comply with these lawful requests, not why the certification is being denied. And it still gives Harvard under 72 hours to comply with the information requests before the visas are cut off, so apparently mere compliance will do, regardless of any remaining ideological objections.
That's my thought as well.
If Harvard fails to comply with legal, valid, information requests, the program can and should be cancelled. Regardless of the administration's political views, there are people who are seeking to gain access to the United States who seek to do it harm through violent means
If Harvard refuses to comply with legal requests in regards to these individuals, the entire program needs to be cancelled. We don't need another 9/11.
Harvard has some 'splaining to do wrt to their coordinated activities with the CCP. That will make for very interesting discovery.
Anyone can request any information he or she wants. I can write to Harvard and ask them to give me all of their security footage. And if I can do it, so can Secretary Dogkiller. But where did Congress authorize her to make decisions about university participation in the student visa program based on these "information requests"?
Particularly if the only purpose of these requests — as her letter makes it clear — is to assist her in suppressing ideas she doesn't like?
Since you asked...
On October 26, 2001, Congress enacted the USA PATRIOT Act (Public Law 107-56), which required the INS to fully implement SEVIS by January 1, 2003. The law also required the INS to include information on each foreign student's or exchange program visitor's port of entry and date of entry, and it expanded the types of schools required to participate in SEVIS to include flight schools, language training schools, and vocational schools. Congress provided $36.8 million in appropriations to fully fund the SEVIS implementation.
The Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act of 2001 (Public Law 107-173), enacted on May 8, 2002, required additional information on foreign students to be captured electronically, such as the issuance of an I-20, the issuance of a visa, and the registration and enrollment of the student at the school.10 It also required schools to report to the INS, no later than 30 days after the school registration deadline, the failure of an alien to enroll or commence participation in an INS-approved school, or a designated exchange visitor program. The law also established a transition program for issuing foreign student and exchange visitor visas pending full SEVIS implementation
https://oig.justice.gov/reports/INS/e0303/background.htm#:~:text=The%20September%2011%2C%202001%2C%20terrorist,or%20had%20attended%20flight%20schools.
I am not an expert on it, but I am aware of SEVIS generally. Among other things, schools are required to track and report whether the foreign students are actually in good standing as students. But where in the law in question does it say anything about schools providing video footage of campus protests if they want to be allowed to host those on student visas?
"schools are required to track and report whether the foreign students are actually in good standing as students."
Indeed they are. And good standing includes good behavioral and ethical standing. If students are engaging in violent protests that violate the school's code of conduct, they may not be in good behavioral and ethical standing, and Harvard would need to report that.
It does not in fact mean that. If the school has disciplined them, it is required under the existing regulations to report that.
We don't need another 9/11
Yeah, risk of Harvard students doing a 9-11 means we need to act now.
What a small wannabe bully you are.
Places like Hah-vud are exactly where the next "9-11" will come from
Sigh...
Several of the 9-11 Hijackers were on student visas. It was a distinct flaw in security, and worthy of renewed scrutiny. Harvard doesn't get a pass on that because it's "Harvard". If it doesn't play by the rules, it gets shut down.
https://oig.justice.gov/reports/INS/e0303/background.htm#:~:text=The%20September%2011%2C%202001%2C%20terrorist,or%20had%20attended%20flight%20schools.
Only one of the 9/11 hijackers was on a student visa; the rest were on tourist visas, except for one who was on a business visa.
None of that, of course, has anything to do with this discussion.
The government isn’t reviewing Harvard students’ visas. It’s prohibiting Harvard from accepting foreign students who’d be granted a visa to attend any other university.
Because Harvard is refusing to provide the necessary reporting on Good Standing for its foreign students.
This is a very stupid argument against having student visas.
You failed to make even a very stupid argument pointed at Harvard.
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1594038333/reasonmagazinea-20/
So when's the sequel, Professor Bernstein? Don't you think you have enough material to work with? Or is a certain kind of "Unprecedented assault on the Constitution and the rule of law" acceptable and pleasurable to you?
You've apparently got a keyboard. What's stopping you from something you're so passionate about?
If the information requests were lawful and valid, and Harvard failed to comply with them, it's hardly lawless to enforce the law. If either they weren't lawful and valid, or Harvard did in fact comply, than punishing Harvard would be lawless. As a rule, one can't refuse to comply with lawful government information requests by claiming unequal enforcement.
If!
But even if they are lawful, that doesn't mean that arbitrary sanctions can be imposed on Harvard for failure to comply.
Well, I don't know anything about what information requests are legally valid or not, and Eugene's post wasn't about that. But *if* DHS has the right to ask Harvard for info on its foreign students, and *if* Harvard didn't comply, suspending Harvard's ability to import new foreign students seems like a perfectly reasonable remedy, though admittedly, once again, I don't know if the underlying law permits it. But again, Eugene was arguing that the actions violate the First Amendment, not that they exceeded executive power, which still seems to me to be dubious.
As Eugene explained, the DHS actions violate the First Amendment if they are 1) based on the speech-protected components of "Facts about Harvard's toxic campus climate" rather than legally valid requests or 2) based on legally valid requests that were selectively enforced based on the speech-components of "Facts ..."
“So much I don’t know, but there’s certainly certainty that this going after anti-Israel critics must be right!”
I don't know if the requests are valid, or if Harvard really failed to comply. But
This seems really important to nail down.
Especially since well before this supposed exchange there was talk about DHS pulling Harvard's cert.
The press release he links goes into all sorts of tangents
Which stumble into retaliation for speech territory.
I agree, but that's not a first amendment argument. As for the retaliation, given yesterday's murder, who is going to argue that there is no national security interest in finding out which students have engaged in illegal actions related to or been punished for pro-Hamas speech?
Gee, I wonder who wrote (or signed) that?
LOL
Also, the draft-card-burning cases are quite clear that if you are particularly "out there" in violating the law, making a spectacle of yourself, it's not a violation of the First Amendment to decide to criminally prosecute you. If you can prosecute an individual for being brazen, why would it be unconstitutional to go after Harvard in a regulatory context for brazenly ignoring (what we will assume arguendo) are lawful requests?
The draft-card burning cases? Do you mean O'Brien? If so, that was about expressive conduct, not speech and I don't think it was decided based on O'Brien being brazen.
"Also, the draft-card-burning cases are quite clear that if you are particularly "out there" in violating the law, making a spectacle of yourself, it's not a violation of the First Amendment to decide to criminally prosecute you."
It is astounding that someone so deficient in understanding/appreciating basic First Amendment law is actually teaching future lawyers. Perhaps some accrediting agencies should take a hard look into George Mason?
George Mason deans::
This person is purporting to teach your students
DB: don’t dox me bro
Oh no....
Under a presumption of regularity, perhaps (yes, that's something I'd never heard of until a few weeks ago, but it seems relevant here). At what point in the process does pretext come up as a meaningful legal issue?
Because the sheer volume of provably pretextual justification the Trump Administration has presented to the courts over the last few months seem to be providing several different courts with strong rebuttal of that particular presumption.
The "underlying rationale" is control. Nothing more, nothing less. The number of commenters here who mock Harvard but absurdly think this won't affect them is quite amazing. This won't stop here. Your law firm, your university, your local community colleges and public schools are next. If you're good with that--and clearly a lot of people are--I'd suggest that fascist governments don't end well for anybody. Stalin beat the odds by dying in his bed, but the suffering of the Russian people under his rule is immeasurable, and the fates weren't so kind to the rest of them.
But the underlying rationale for the action by the government is Harvard's failure to comply with valid information requests
I'm guessing the statue doesn't oblige Harvard to start turning over records and video of students to the government.
And I'm sure the administration didn't have a warrant.
And it still gives Harvard under 72 hours to comply with the information requests before the visas are cut off, so apparently mere compliance will do, regardless of any remaining ideological objections.
Are they making similar requests from Liberty University?
This is fascism, there's no dressing it up otherwise. The administration has decided that Harvard represents the enemy and it trying to force them to surrender or be destroyed.
At this point, I'm wondering if Trump is actually hoping to cause a "Kent State" because it would be good TV.
When the news broke of the murder of the Jewish couple last night, I commented on X that today Reason writers would declare the murderer should be set free on First Amendment grounds.
The left's support of terrorism advocacy by foreign students is what led to the murder of the Jewish couple last night in D.C. But law professors here want nothing to stop that advocacy and nothing to stop our nation's border to be wide open to all comers, no matter how violent and no matter the illegal aliens support of destroying our country.
Foreign students do not have a right to come to our nation and advocate for its destruction. Allowing them a Visa to attend college is a privilege. That privilege can be revoked for their activities whether on or off campus.
I know leftist law professors get a thrill out of the kill, and the more Americans put to death by their pet terrorists, the more excited they will be, but the State Department is in charge of Visas. If they say Harvard's privilege in participating in the foreign student Visa educational program is suspended, then suspended it should be.
Harvard believes they shouldn't be required to abide by the rules of the program much the same way their graduates believe laws shouldn't apply to them.
That Ham-Ass POS should have been summarily executed when the Cops showed up last night.
It's one thing — not a good thing — to say that in a knee jerk reaction in the heat of the moment. It's downright humiliating for you that you repeat it a day later, after having had time to do whatever passes for thinking in your cerebrum.
"I commented on X that today Reason writers would declare the murderer should be set free on First Amendment grounds."
Okey doke. Can you point us to someone declaring it?
the State Department is in charge of Visas.
Funny. Mine was issued by a bank. AFAIK the State Department wasn't involved at all.
If they say Harvard's privilege in participating in the foreign student Visa educational program is suspended, then suspended it should be.
No. It shouldn't be. Marco Rubio is not the czar.
"A government official can share her views freely and criticize particular beliefs, and she can do so forcefully in the hopes of persuading others to follow her lead. . . . What she cannot do, however, is use the power of the State to punish or suppress disfavored expression." National Rifle Association of America v. Vullo, 602 U.S. 175, ___, 144 S.Ct. 1316, 1326 (2024).
Harvard is being "punished" because they refused to answer DHS's data call despite multiple requests, not for whatever ink you're squirting.
What gives DHS authority to obtain to any of that information? Assuming it has any such authority, what gives DHS authority to condition student visas on the receipt of that information?
Don't the cool kids call this sealioning? The regulatory authority was cited in the letter as well as in Eugene's post; I'm confident in your ability to read it and point to any specific defects you may feel exist.
That regulation says exactly what I mentioned a few moments ago: that schools must keep records of whether student visa holders are in good standing as students. (Courses taken, grades received, academic probation, etc.) There is nothing whatsoever in there about video footage of protests.
Exactly, Obama senior was kicked out of Harvard and America because he was rawdogging more coeds than Hegseth at Princeton!
The letter cites 8 CFR § 214.3(g)(1), which contains a list of items that the school must record, and provide to DHS on request. The letter then asks Harvard to provide information that is not on that list. So DHS is asking for, and knows it is asking for, information that Harvard is under no obligation to provide.
The only request that might be covered under the cited regulation is the request for “relevant information regarding each student visa holder's maintenance of at least the minimum required coursework to maintain nonimmigrant student status.” However:
1) Presumably DHS intends to use this information to determine if the students are still eligible for nonimmigrant student status. Why doesn’t DHS just specify the information they need to make that determination, rather than forcing Harvard to guess?
2) 8 CFR § 214.3(g)(2) requires the school to notify DHS of changes within 21 days, even in the absence of a request. The request went out an April 16, 2025. So at this point DHS has all the information it needs to determine whether the visa status of any student should be updated.
" So at this point DHS has all the information it needs to determine whether the visa status of any student should be updated."
So at this point DHS has all that information if Harvard has actually been complying with the law. It's probably not safe to assume that Harvard has been faithfully complying with it.
Based on known evidence, it seems safer to assume the Trump Administration has not been faithfully complying with the law.
As to Harvard's actions, I just linked to their request for TRO this morning (end o the thread), including such evidence:
We're all aware nothing will convince you, but no one needs to convince you....just the court.
So....how does that apply to Osama Bin Laden? Did Obama use the "power of the state" to punish "disfavored expression" in any way? Even...partially? Even if there was another reason to use the power of the state?
The weakest attempt to leverage Hitler/OBL/Nazi/Stalin/9-11 to go after people you don't like.
This might be the stupidest argument you've ever made.
It's got layers of stupidity.
I'm surprised it wasn't couched in one of his infamously stupid "hypotheticals"...
I just realized that Trump has made Poe's law obsolete.
Here is a copy of Secretary Noem's letter to Harvard: https://www.masslive.com/news/2025/05/read-the-trump-admin-letter-barring-harvard-from-enrolling-international-students.html
Aliens within the United States have long been recognized as a suspect class for purposes of constitutional equal protection guaranties. SCOTUS opined in Graham v. Richardson, 403 U.S. 365, 371-371 (1971):
"Equal protection analysis in the Fifth Amendment area is the same as that under the Fourteenth Amendment." Buckley v. Valeo, 424 U.S. 1, 93 (1976), citing Weinberger v. Wiesenfeld, 420 U.S. 636, 638 n.2 (1975) ("This Court's approach to Fifth Amendment equal protection claims has always been precisely the same as to equal protection claims under the Fourteenth Amendment."), and cases cited therein.
The Supreme Court in Graham, 403 U.S. at 377, observed that the protection of 42 U.S.C. § 1981 has been held to extend to aliens, as well as to citizens. This statute, originally enacted in 1866, provides in its current iteration:
No cabinet official has the right to unilaterally abrogate alien students' contracts for their education with Harvard nor with any other university within the United States.
Some 1866 law does not give Harvard a free pass to violate current law.
Certainly not! And some old rag from 1787 should hardly constrain our current leader.
That 1866 law doesn't protect Harvard. It does, however, protect alien Harvard students.
These students have a strong civil cause of action against Secretary Noem. The next presidential administration should also consider whether the Secretary's actions are criminal under 18 U.S.C. § 242 and, if she has conspired with others to deprive the rights of the students, under 18 U.S.C. § 241.
All the more reason to keep the foreign students out, if they are going to be filing these ridiculous lawsuits based on Civil War Reconstruction laws.
Well, that just means that Trump has to pardon his entire cabinet before leaving office.
Still it would be humorous for two people going around wearing muzzie headscarves, to hide their identity, and intimidate Jews, to have their case prosecuted by a Dem AG under § 241 ¶ 1. Of course, hiding their faces in order to hide their identity while intimidating Jews IS a violation of § 241 ¶ 2, and thus grounds for revocation of their student visas.
Today I learned that libertarian First Amendment scholars suffer from the same self-destructive empathy that afflicts run-of-the-mill leftists. Libertarianism is as much of a mental illness as anything else.
Thanks for your participation!
"You are not allowed to use governmental power against people who are trying to kill you. I am very principled."
Hey, I dislike Harvard as much as the next Ivy League grad from New Jersey, but even I think that's an overly harsh description of the Crimson.
"So now you're against Americans murdering foreigners..."
How you like dem Apples Hahvud?!?!?!?
The path to autocracy is, at this point, well trodden and well documented. Attacking the universities is pretty standard for any wannabe autocrat. A post like this debating the details of the excuses and rationalizations for the attack actually lend credibility to the attack. Does it really matter how zealously or not Harvard complied with unprecedented demands for information?
It is going to matter to Harvard, and to foreign students who want to attend.
I hear the University of Terror-Anne is very pleasant in the summer
Eugene and David (since he dropped in):
This is coming for you, too. Maybe sooner, maybe later— but it’s coming for you too. You don’t have to have a history PHD to connect the dots here. It’s been kind of stunning to watch this all unfold and your reaction to it— you’re smart (if misguided) people— so let me be, apparently, the first to tell you: these kinds of movements eventually begin to consume their own… and if you think a couple of blog comments about technical adherence to data requests or “I don't know enough to comment” are going to save you… well. You can fill in the blanks. Have you read the comments from the community of ultras you have cultivated here over the last decade? Cuidado, amigas.
I don’t quite agree with Professor Volokh’s analysis. I think there is an additional critical legal issue Professor Volokh omits. The issue is that, as I see it, US civil rights law does not apply to acts towards foreign countries as distinct from US citizens. Thus promoting the destruction of the State of Israel or the massacre of Israelis, or even having served in Hamas or even committed atrocities outside of the US, does not by itself have civil rights implications, just as promoting a united Ireland or the IRA, or even admitting people who served in the IRA and committed terrorist acts in Ireland, is not a civil rights violation against American citizens of Ulster Unionist origin.
Without this distinction, it is by no means clear that Professor Volokh is correct. I think Professor Volokh’s problem is Bob Jones University.
Suppose the Ole Miss student body had conducted mass rallies celebrating lynchings of Negroes, condemning negros for illegally occupying White territory, and proclaiming that “Ole Miss shall be Free” when what is clearly meant is free of Negros. Suppose the administration gave prominent honors and roles to student leaders of these rallies and to Ku Klux Klan officials.
Under Bob Jones, it is not quite so obvious to me that all of this would be protected by the First Amendment when the government is not prohiniting, but withdrawing a subsidy. Bob Jones stands for the proposition that the interest involved is compelling. Students and administration alike have a right to advocate for the repeal of the Civil Rights Laws and a return to segregation. But “advocacy” behavior can reach a point where it more resembles an attempt to intimidate prospective black students into not coming.
Sigh. Again: Bob Jones lost its tax exemption because of conduct, not speech.
And when Harvard loses its tax exemption, the administration will say that it is for Harvard's conduct.
Yes, this administration has demonstrated that it will lie.
Harvard discriminates based on race. Scotus already determined that. Harvard gets billions in federal grants, and does not comply with federal requirements. Harvard does not hire Trump supporters.
This has been explained to you a number of times. You seem to like this dumb argument too much to stop using it though.
Here's the timeline.
1. Harvard, among many others, starts some race-based admissions policies
2. Supreme Court, in a fractured opinion, says that's fine if they do it right.
3. Harvard, among many others, tailors the policy to comply with that case, and subsequent cases.
4. Supreme Court, decades later, overrules the previous opinion
5. Harvard, among many others, stops the policy, complying with federal requirements.
There was no time in this chronology that you can claim Harvard did anything not in keeping with federal requirements.
I mean, you can, but you're be lying. Or very stupid. Or both.
Also of note is the 'among many others.' Trump's only gone after the Ivys. Minus Dartmouth.
One might draw conclusions this isn't about race or antisemitism, but about something more anti-intellectual.
You give an explanation as to how Harvard was able to get away with racial discrimination, but it still has DEI policies, and now the Trump administration is enforcing the law. Maybe Dartmouth is complying with the law, I don't know.
Trump went to an Ivy League school. He just wants the colleges to comply.
Maybe Dartmouth is complying with the law, I don't know.
The last three words are Roger’s worldview.
Harvard and Columbia seem determined to pick a fight with Trump. Dartmouth probably has more sensible management.
You should have stood on “I don’t know.”
"5. Harvard, among many others, stops the policy, complying with federal requirements."
Well, that part happens to be a lie, but otherwise, sure.
Your conspiracies are not real.
I already linked yesterday to evidence that Harvard is continuing to systematically engage in illegal racial and other discrimination. That, even for job categories that are already disproportionately minority or female, their explicit goal is to make them even more disproportionate. Indeed, the goal seems to be nothing less than minimizing the number of white men working at Harvard to the greatest extent possible.
You're just in denial, I expect because you're aware that these actions ARE illegal, but on some level approve of them. But the Trump administration has no interest in turning a blind eye to illegal racial discrimination by institutions like Harvard.
Your conspiracies are not real.
This is what fascism looks like. Using the government to punish groups you don't like.
8647
Should groups that are disfavored by the incumbent be immune from prosecution/sanction/consequences? That seems to be a common refrain; "you can't punish [insert generic leftwing lawbreaker], they're a critic of Trump!"
In your estimation, was it fascism when the Biden administration launched the largest law enforcement action in American history against the J6 protestors?
You mean the folks who trashed the Capitol and threatened to kill our elected representatives? Man if you didn't like Antifa, you're *really* gonna hate the J6ers!
Sec Noem made 6 requests for information involving students on student visas. Of the 6, the first four involved actions that could (and in this Administration probably would) cost the foreign students their student visas:
1) illegal activities
2) dangerous and violent activities
3) threats to other students or university personnel
4) deprivation of rights
The 5th request was for the discipline records for the nonimmigrant students, and the 6th request was for nonimmigrant students involved in protests. The 5th request could be seen as a catchall, allowing DHS to revoke student visas for other activities that might be justified, such as cheating, plagiarism, etc.
My view is that only the 6th request may have crossed the line into 1st Amdt territory. That may be overreach. But the solution to that is to respond to the other 5 requests, and interpose the 1st Amdt as a justification for not responding to #6. That’s what lawyers invariably do - ask for more than they are entitled to, and accept what they are entitled to.
One of the things that Harvard is required to do in order to maintain their SEVP certification is to report nonimmigrant students who could have their student visas revoked as a result of their actions in this country. And that is what Harvard is being stripped of their SEVP certification for - failure to report actions by their nonimmigrant students that could justify their loss of their student visas. Now, if they did report such students, they presumably would have the right, in a hearing, to contest their loss of their student visas. But this isn’t about that, but rather about Harvard’s SEVP reporting requirements. Likely, the reason that Harvard has refused to respond, as required by DHS Sec Noem, is to protect the student visas of the nonimmigrant students who might, as a result of their actions, be vulnerable to loss of their student visas, and thence deportation. Very similar to the judge recently indicted for sending a defendant out through the private secure areas of the courthouse, in order to evade the INS agents waiting outside her courtroom to arrest him. In any case, Harvard has no 1st Amdt right to SEVP certification, while refusing DHS requests for information that might cause the subject students to lose their student visas.
FYI - here is a copy of the letter in question:
https://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/Noem-to-Harvard.pdf
Which lays out the requested information:
The Harvard thing sits very well with normal folks.
Are there not enough qualified Harvard entrants in our nation of 340 million ???????????????
I really think this is the key line:
"and at recognized institutions that fulfill the visa program's goals."
And, what are those goals? I'm pretty sure helping to spread antisemitism and anti-Americanism are not among them. I might go so far as to say the goals are the opposite of that. That the program intends to spread PRO American views abroad.
So the administration has concluded that Harvard is not an institution which currently has any interest in fulfilling the visa program's goals, but instead seems to be determined to anti-fulfill them.
The palace in Brussels is monitoring the situation, given that Crown Princess Elisabeth is studying at Harvard at the moment. I would assume she has a diplomatic passport, but I guess she's not exempt from all of this mess.
https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20250523_92819982
This Dutch idiom doesn't machine translate well: "Het zou inderdaad niet de eerste keer zijn dat de soep minder heet wordt gegeten als ze wordt opgediend."
Literally the expression means that soup is eaten less hot than it is served, and the sense of it is that measures often turn out less strict than initially thought/announced.
...and here is the inevitable lawsuit: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/23/us/harvard-university-trump-administration-alan-garber.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
See https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/70349156/president-and-fellows-of-harvard-college-v-department-of-homeland-security/
The 72 page complaint, which is really a press release, must have drafted before the official termination notice. Harvard cites freedom of speech, due process, and the Administrative Procedure Act.
Certainly, Harvard has the First Amendment right to promote whatever view it wants. However, visas are not an entitlement and the government need not subsidize those views (e.g. Bob Jones University). Moreover, 5 out of 6 of the requests In Noem's demand letter are for records and videos relating to unprotected activity (threats, disciplinary records, etc.). The 6th is arguable, since video records of protests may show evidence of threats that were not reported.
Harvard may win, but I think it's a gamble and they are likely to achieve at best a Pyrrhic victory. The depositions will be incriminating and out a lot of dirty laundry (what's up with this coordination with the CCP?!). The depositions themselves may show further civil rights violations (e.g. racist discrimination in admissions and attempts to avoid the Supreme Court decision against it). The SC wont be on Harvard's side if its shown that Harvard complied maliciously with its order last year.
Further, the administration may put pressure on Harvard by shutting down the student visa program altogether, nationwide. That is certainly one content-neutral way to address the issue. It will affect every foreign student. Other universities will put pressure on Harvard to resolve its lawsuit. This administration will have no problem simply closing the student visa program.
While all this plays out, student enrollment, especially by foreign students, will drop.
This administration is looking for a lawsuit. They are looking for depositions. They are looking to curb the student visa program nationwide. This lawsuit will take years, during which Harvard will bleed profusely, and is likely to come out the other side severely damaged. I think they are getting very bad advice and should settle and live to fight another day. Why do they even want these troublemakers on campus? One wonders. Oh wait: these students pay full freight so its all about the benjamins.
They could find less ghastly foreign students to pay full freight. They want these troublemakers because they agree with them: Harvard has a long history of antisemitism.
They want these troublemakers because they agree with them: Harvard has a long history of antisemitism
You talk yourself into some stupid shit, Brett. Here, you start with confirmation bias and end with a pretty fraught historical take, especially as applied to today.
Are you talking yourself into stupid shit like, oh, denying that Harvard has a long history of antisemitism?
To me this is a bigger deal than the loss of federal funding. Harvard can survive on its own endowment and donations until we have a less hostile President.
Harvard was likely picked because of its prominence. Plenty of schools, and esp elite schools, act similarly to Harvard, in these matters. Maybe not as brazenly, as if they were above the law, as Harvard seems to be, but still protecting student visa holders whose conduct could cost them their student visas. Why was Harvard (ultimately successfully) sued for racial discrimination in its application process? Arguably, again, it was because of their prominence. Other schools were following Harvard’s lead - if they can and did discriminate on the basis of race, etc, in their admissions process, then not only could these other schools do the same, but arguably they should. Similarly here, if Harvard can refuse to report student visa holders whose actions could cause them to lose their student visas, because of a desire to protect these students from deportation, then these “lesser” schools could, and arguably should, do the same.
I would argue that the big reason that Harvard was somewhat singled out here, was due to the in terrorem effect that forcing Harvard to conform to their reporting requirements would have on other “lesser” schools. Similarly, ignoring Harvard, in light of their defiance, would send the opposite message, that colleges and universities, if they are big enough and prominent enough, can ignore their reporting requirements, and, thus, the law. This is a common prosecutorial strategy - go after the most prominent cases, and most everyone else will fall in line. In this case, there is significant public knowledge and information that Harvard appears to be protecting student visa holders who might lose their student visas if the school were to respond to this request by DHS. Should Harvard be exempt from responding to the requests if they pose this sort of 1st Amdt defense?
Completely separate from the merits, there is a fundamental problem of Due Process. The government cannot simply cut Harvard off on its own say-so or because it does not like Harvard’s response to its demand letter. Rather, Harvard gets a hearing, both administrative and through the courts, before the Administration can act. The Administration has to prove its case before a genuinely neutral tribunal.
As I’ve written in my comment above, I am not as certain as Professor Volokh is that the government’s case has absolutely no merit. But I do know that the government cannot engage in vigilante self-help. It can’t simply seize things on its own say-so. And if it does, the merits of any case it could have made if it had acted through proper channels become completely irrelevant.
I agree with this point. The government shouldn't make up processes.
But wouldn't this be a pyrrihic victory for Harvard? They may win on this point of the law, but they will likely lose all of their foreign students while this is making its way through the courts.
And it is a possiblity the Trump Administrations continues to go through the process (eg hearings) and so potentially Harvard will be found through the process to be ineligible to take foreign students before SCOTUS rules on the process issue.
Harvard could ask for a preliminary injunction until it gets its hearing.
Very true. And in my opinion Harvard would get it.
As I am learning from current cases, that would give Harvard a reprieve for their current foreign students for a few weeks until the hearing. I assume a TRO will be granted at the hearing, but probably will be overruled by SCOTUS for at least new student visa, if not all students. In the interim, the preliminary injunction would not stop a large exodus of class of 2025 foreign student.
So, they have a hearing where letters from DHS are presented, and Harvard is asked whether they responded to their requests for information required for their continued SCVP certification. Harvard didn’t. End of case.
Except that the government very often moves without hearings in this type of case. For example, the IRS may determine that you owe them money, based on a previous letter to you demanding that you account for specific income that wasn’t declared on your tax return. Or maybe even assesses taxes based on your not filing a tax return.
Is Harvard considering the ramifications of pushing back on this specific issue in regard to its ability to have foreign students?
Now that DHS has announced terminating Harvard's eligibility to accept foreign students, at the minimum all of their foreign students entering in the class 2025 will go elsewhere (or defer).
Harvard is also risking no foreign students until SCOTUS rules. It is unlikely that Harvard will get relief from the courts until the issue is settled by SCOTUS. In U.S. v. Texas during Biden's term, SCOTUS deferred to the Executive Branch and during that time, the courts did not (could not?) force the Executive Branch to take an action. My read would be the issue is the same unless SCOTUS wants to open a can of worms politically (word choice intentional). SCOTUS will not force the Executive Branch to certify that Harvard is eligible to take foreign students or grant foreign students visa to study at Harvard (both things require the Executive Branch to take an action arguably in their discretion vs in the other immigration cases, it is more about not changing the facts on the ground) while the case is working its way through the courts. Sure, a district court could grant Harvard a TRO, but SCOTUS will likely step in to overrule in a matter of weeks as they have in recent rulings.
Harvard's initial response today deserves some attention. It follows Prof. Volokh's reasoning pretty closely. Here's an extract from a Washington Post article (gift link included):
And here's and Harvard's motion for TRO w/ToC:
Judge Burroughs granted a TRO. A hearing on a preliminary injunction is set for May 29.
The government has not yet appeared in the case. Judge Burroughs thought the government defendants had adequate notice. The order does not require a bond or state that none is required.
Harvard is represented by two attorneys with Lehotsky Keller Cohn.
From a NY Times op-ed:
According to its critics, Harvard is a “national disgrace,” a “woke madrasa,” a “Maoist indoctrination camp,” a “ship of fools,” a “bastion of rampant anti-Jewish hatred and harassment,” a “cesspool of extremist riots” and an “Islamist outpost” in which the “dominant view on campus” is “destroy the Jews, and you’ve destroyed the root of Western civilization.”
And that’s before we get to President Trump’s opinion that Harvard is “an Anti-Semitic, Far Left Institution,” a “Liberal mess” and a “threat to Democracy,” which has been “hiring almost all woke, Radical Left, idiots and ‘birdbrains’ who are only capable of teaching FAILURE to students and so-called future leaders.”
"According to its critics..." That is—to You. We already knew that.
Do you have a point?
With the seeming disproportionate percentage of students with views equating Israel’s very existence with genocide, Harvard is more likely in violation of the Students for Fair Admissions case than any other laws, which should be sufficient grounds for sanction. God help us if such views represent a broad cross section of society. Said more plainly, they’re favoring antisemitic activists, not students in search of knowledge.