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Nationwide Injunctions and the Rule of Law
Justice Kagan hits the nail on the head: "nationwide injunctions" are an indispensable tool by which courts rein in unlawful executive action
<UPDATE 5/19 Just a note to draw readers' attention to the 300+ comments that this post has received. It is a good illustration of one of the things I like most about the VC - I'm not aware of another blog that can generate as intelligent and informative a conversation. Not that every comment is a gem, but the overall level of the discussion is rather remarkably high and the tone is mostly respectful. That is not always the case here; some posts dealing with controversial matters generate comments that spiral into some nasty ad hominem mud-slinging. But at its best it's much closer to good old-fashioned argument/debate, and I find I can often learn a fair bit from it.>
At oral argument Thursday in Trump v. Casa, Inc., the "nationwide injunction" case, Justice Kagan put her finger on the question that is, in my view, decisive: If district courts do not have the ability to issue "nationwide injunctions"* against executive misbehavior, i.e., if they are limited to injunctions applicable only to the specific party/ies challenging the government's actions in the cases before them, the courts cannot serve as an effective check on unlawful executive action.
*These injunctions might better be labelled "non-party injunctions" rather than "nationwide injunctions." Listening to the oral argument, it appears that what gives some Justices heartburn with respect to these injunctions is not that they operate "nationwide" (i.e., outside of the geographic district within with the court is authorized to act) but that they purport to affect the rights of non-parties.
Justice Kagan asked the Solicitor General to assume, just for argument's sake, that the Birthright Executive Order is unlawful, on the merits** - that it is an unconstitutional exercise of executive power contravening both the 14th Amendment and a number of Supreme Court precedents (as most of the courts that have looked at it have already concluded).
**This question about the merits - whether the Birthright E.O. is or is not a constitutional exercise of the President's power - was not before the Court at this point, because the government, which was the losing party in the court below, sought SCOTUS review only on the question of whether the court's injunction was valid, not on the underlying merits of the plaintiffs' claim. That turns out to be a rather interesting omission - see below.
If you are uncomfortable making this assumption, because you are convinced that that the Birthright E.O. is not an unconstitutional exercise of presidential power, feel free to craft your own hypothetical here; think of something that a President could do that would be, in your view, clearly and incontrovertibly unlawful: An order requiring, say, the State Department to fire all Jews and African-Americans in its workforce; an order placing the words "Christ is our Savior" on one-dollar bills; an order declaring that ICE can execute warrantless searches whenever it deems them to be in the public interest. Just suppose.***
***Justice Sotomayor used this hypothetical: "A new president orders that because there's so much gun violence going on in the country and he says, 'I have the right to take away the guns from everyone,' and he sends out the military to seize everyone's guns."
Now imagine that Able and Baker and Charlie have been injured by this unconstitutional policy; e.g., each of their citizenships has been revoked, even though they were all born in the United States. They bring suit in federal district court in, say, Houston, arguing that the E.O. is unconstitutional. They win. The court orders the government to reinstate their citizenships.
Nothing remotely controversial or out-of-the-ordinary in the above, and nobody is suggesting otherwise. The Solicitor General acknowledged that it is appropriate for the district court to enjoin the government from imposing its new citizenship policy on Able, Baker, and Charlie, and he conceded that the government would comply with the court's order directing it to reinstate the plaintiffs' citizenships in that case.
But under the Administration's view of things, that is as far as the district court can go:
[From the Administration's Application for a Stay submitted to SCOTUS in this case, available here]
Article III authorizes federal courts to exercise only "judicial Power," which extends only to "Cases" and "Controversies." Under that power, courts can adjudicate "claims of infringement of individual rights," whether "by [the] unlawful action of private persons or by the exertion of unauthorized administrative power." Courts that sustain such claims may grant the challenger appropriate relief—for instance, an injunction preventing the enforcement of a challenged law or policy against that individual—but cannot grant relief to strangers to the litigation. Article III does not empower federal courts to "exercise general legal oversight of the Legislative and Executive Branches." To reach beyond the litigants and to enjoin the Executive Branch's actions toward third parties "would be not to decide a judicial controversy, but to assume a position of authority over the governmental acts of another and co-equal department, an authority which plainly [courts] do not possess."
Only the Supreme Court, the Administration asserts, can declare the policy unconstitutional as to persons who are not party to any lawsuit, and only the Supreme Court can enjoin the government from revoking the citizenship of persons similarly-situated to Able, Baker, and Charlie but located in other judicial districts.
It's not a totally unreasonable position: only the Supreme Court has truly nationwide jurisdiction, and it alone should be permitted to decide "the law of the land," not some district court in Texas or Massachusetts or Colorado.
But Justice Kagan identified the fatal flaw in the argument:
If [the government] wins this challenge and we say that there is no nationwide injunction and it all has to be through individual cases, then I can't see how an individual who is not being treated equivalently to the individual who brought the case would have any ability to bring the substantive question to us…. In a case like this, the government has no incentive to bring this case to the Supreme Court because it's not really losing anything. It's losing a lot of individual cases, which still allow it to enforce its EO against the vast majority of people to whom it applies. . . . I'm suggesting that in a case in which the government is losing constantly, there's nobody else who's going to appeal; they're all winning! It's up to you, [the government], to decide whether to take this case to us. If I were in your shoes, there is no way I'd approach the Supreme Court with this case.
Which is exactly what happened here! As I noted above, the government didn't ask the Court to review the adverse determination that the E.O. was "blatantly unconstitutional." Why not, you ask? Because it knows full well that it is almost certain to lose when that question comes to the Court, at which point the government would have to openly defy "the law of the land" if it wanted the State Department and DHS and ICE and the other executive agencies to operate under its new definition of citizenship. Instead, if it could just get rid of these pesky "non-party injunctions," it would be perfectly content to just go on losing, one case and one plaintiff at a time, forgoing its right to appeal all the adverse decisions, while work to implement the E.O. with respect to the millions of people who are not parties to the various lawsuits goes on apace.
And paradoxically enough, the more egregious the executive's conduct - the more obviously and incontrovertibly unconstitutional it is - the more likely it is that it will lose every case, which will mean that the question of its constitutionality never gets to the Supreme Court for a conclusive ruling.
Clever, no? Another seam, or fault-line, in the web of constitutional protections and the separation of powers has been exposed.
I regard this as a fatal objection to a rule prohibiting non-party injunctions in all cases because it fails what we might call the Hitler Test: if we are ever so unfortunate as to have a president who wanted to do Hitler-ian things, would this rule help to prevent that from happening or not? It's not a terribly high bar, but a rule prohibiting non-party injunctions in all cases doesn't make it over. I think that a majority of the Court will at least be a little troubled by a rule that incorporates this perverse legal incentive to act in an outrageously unconstitutional manner. Though I'm loathe to predict the direction the Court might go on this issue, it doesn't appear to me that there is majority support for a blanket prohibition on non-party injunctions, and I think it more likely that the Court will find some intermediate position that will spell out the conditions under which non-party injunctions are permissible and within the discretion of the district courts. We'll see if I'm right about that.
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This article demonstrates the huge problem with the judiciary. Democracy is not even considered in this article. Nationwide injunctions run afoul of Democracy, and the legal profession and the judiciary could care less. This is exactly why there is a reckoning coming for the out of control judicial branch of government.
Is it true that they almost didn't give the Federal Courts equity powers after having seen how British courts had abused them?
No.
Lawyers and judges are Democrat, big government attack dogs. All their decisions are feelings, bias, temporary moods, hanger, personal self interest and professional self interest in imposing their unjustified power over our population.
Birthright citizenship is an immigration fraud. These Deep State agent judges have decided to increase the populations of Democrat jurisdictions. They have given citizenship to the spawn of shithole people defrauding the immigration system. Welcome to San Fran to anyone supporting this lawless decision. San Fran is an unlivable shithole despite being the richest big city in the nation.
These are the other nations granting birthright citizenships. All are unlivable shitholes. The USA will not beat those odds.
- Canada
- Mexico
- Argentina
- Brazil
- Chile
- Ecuador
- Peru
- Uruguay
- Venezuela
- Barbados
- Jamaica
- Pakistan
We've already had birthright citizenship for hundreds of years, dorkbutt.
Democracy is what put the 14th Amendment there in the first place. Democracy could take it back out, if it really wanted to. It doesn't. Most people want to keep birthright citizenship.
Supremacy Claus: Canada is an unliveable shithole?!? Have you been there recently and know something I don't. Chile? Brazil? Uruguay? Peru? I've been to those places, and I've got 10 bucks says you haven't ... they've got their problems, but unliveable shitholes they are most certainly not.
"Is it true that they almost didn't give the Federal Courts equity powers after having seen how British courts had abused them?"
The answer is no, but if it were yes, would that even matter?
As the maxim goes, almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
The Constitution is a check on the majority trampling on the rights of the majority. Basic civics there.
You need to reword your contradictory statement. You have majority twice where the second time is seems like you meant minority.
I have seen this sentiment several times here over the last few days - that the courts are thwarting the will of the majority, standing in the way of democracy, or whatever.
This is wrong in two different ways.
The first way is that the constitution was democratically adopted. A majority decided that we wanted things to work certain ways, and having the courts enforce the Bill of Rights was one of those ways; the courts are enforcing the will of the majority as written in the constitution. If feelings change about that, then it's time to use the democratically adopted procedure to change that, namely amendment.
That's the long view. In the near term view, thwarting the immediate will of a majority wishing to violate the rights of a minority is exactly what the courts are supposed to do. For one example, when a majority of people in D.C. didn't want Dick Heller to have a pistol, the court stepped in to protect his constitutionally guaranteed right against the will of the majority. The majority may want to have Jim Crow, or ban AR's, or hang a witch without a trial. The role of the courts is precisely to thwart the will of the majority in those cases unless/until there is enough of a majority to amend the rules.
Nobody seriously questions judicial review. The complaint about "thwarting the will of the majority" comes into play when courts have wide, far reaching, and unsupported views of what is contained in the Bill of Rights such that one believes that no majority ever enshrined such a thing in the BOR to begin with.
That goes double for having a single district judge make such a determination for the whole country. Judicial review is counter majoritarian in its best days and authoritarian and tyrannical in its worst.
I have seen multiple people critique the principle of judicial review.
The opening comment claims "Democracy" was not addressed.
The OP very well was concerned about it. He argued that national injunctions were necessary for the rule of law, a basic concept in our democracy. So, what is really involved here?
Your reply seems to suggest the real issue is people thinking the courts made a really bad decision. "Thwarting the will of the majority" is a somewhat strange way to phrase that. The majority can be "thwarted" as long as the courts do it "right."
The OP also notes the Trump Administration did not want SCOTUS to address the merits. Where does the fault lie there?
A single district court judge does not have the final word, especially all by their lonesome.
I question judicial review because of the plain language of Article I Section 1. All lawmaking power goes to the legislature. Cancellation of a law is lawmaking. If you want judicial review, enact a constitutional amendment. Judicial review has been an unmitigated catastrophe for this nation. The first one was Dred Scott that repealed a law and a ratified treaty that prevented war for 20 years. It sucks because judges suck. They are all stupid, and all stink. Judicial review is lawmaking by people with intellectual disability.
Marbury v Madision is void for all its misconduct and illegalities.
https://supremacyclaus.blogspot.com/2007/06/marburygate-or-misconduct-in-marbury-v.html
" The complaint about "thwarting the will of the majority" comes into play when courts have wide, far reaching, and unsupported views of what is contained in the Bill of Rights such that one believes that no majority ever enshrined such a thing in the BOR to begin with."
In theory, the politics of Art 3 judges shouldn't matter because their decisions are supposed to be apolitical and based on the (a) Constitution as ratified by the people and then (b) laws as passed by the people's Congress, including (c) powers delegated to the Executive.
SCOTUS is different in that those judges ARE political, notwithstanding what Herr Roberts may say. So maybe district judges need to be able to expedite the decision to SCOTUS and let SCOTUS issue the national injunction.
Or say that SCOTUS must affirm every national injunction within 48 hours -- including summer. They do have telephones out on Hupper Island...
"The first way is that the constitution was democratically adopted. A majority decided that we wanted things to work certain ways, and having the courts enforce the Bill of Rights was one of those ways; the courts are enforcing the will of the majority as written in the constitution."
WRONG!!!!
Judicial review was/is (a) not written in the Constitution, and (b) the Constitution would never have been ratified if it had been.
Good or bad, the fact is that it was created by John Marshall -- it was he who was negligent in not handing out the commission in time and it was Marshall who fabricated Judaical Review as a concept.
Like the word "abortion", the words "judicial review" do not appear in the Constitution.
Judicial review is written into the constitution. It's right there in the first sentence of Article III: "The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."
False. The thing you learned in 7th grade social studies is wrong. Judicial review long predates Marbury.
That's question begging. Whether the "judicial Power" extends to the power to decide the constitutionality of an act of Congress or the executive is the very question that people struggling over judicial review are trying to answer.
Marbury is good law. That's not question begging. Challenging this 200+ year old constantly used precedent would require defying the judiciary wholesale.
It's also load-bearing to our republic.
Marbury being good law does NOT mean that the people voted for it! The very fact that it is a decision means that it is not explicitly stated in the text because, if it was, it would be cited as such. E.g. the section of the 14th Amendment that Shithead Bellows cited in an attempt to keep Donald Trump off the Maine ballot. (And as many of us suspected, she is running for Governor in 2026.)
Something being a good idea does not inherently make it Constitutional. For example, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 probably prevented a civil war, it was badly needed -- and unConstitutional.
At least as an exercise of the commerce clause. Now as to the enforcement clause of the 14th Amendment, that I could agree with but that was NOT the authority cited.
And as to Marbury, John Marshall should have recused himself!
Can you think of a worse conflict of interest than being the cause of the action itself?
A judicial decision being "good law" does not necessarily mean that it is good in the moral sense; it means that it is controlling precedent which has not been overruled or modified. For example, Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393 (1857), was "good law" until it was abrogated by the Fourteenth Amendment, § 1. Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214 (1944), was "good law" until it was overruled in Trump v. Hawaii, 585 U.S. 667 (2018). Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), and Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, 597 U.S. 215 (2022), are still "good law", despite being morally atrocious affirmations that the government can lawfully decide who does or does not reproduce.
So somebody other than the Supreme Court (and the various inferior courts) gets to do judicial review, despite not having the judicial Power? This sounds very much like an argument that will be abandoned when the president and Congress are not to your liking.
"Judicial review is written into the Constitution."
Ehh... That's too strong a statement. While the concept of Judicial review certainly predates the Constitution, it wasn't quite "written into" the Constitution. It was interpreted as part of the Judicial Power. Moreover, the strength of judicial review (the ability to simply declare laws unconstitutional) in the United States is unusually strong, didn't necessarily have to be interpreted that way.
One way to look at this, is to look at other countries that have judges with judicial power. Not all of them have the power to declare laws unconstitutional. Acts of Parliament in the UK...can't be set aside by the courts. In the Netherlands, the Constitution explicitly bans the courts from being able to set aside primary legislation.
Marshall established that the Judicial Power in the US included unusually broad powers of Judicial Review. And while the concept existed beforehand, fully ingraining it into the understanding of the US Constitution was a major and significant act that does need to be properly appreciated.
Article III empowers the courts to hear "all cases and controversies arising under this Constitution." There's no way for the courts to decide these cases without judicial review. If Congress passed a law requiring those being interrogated by federal law enforcement to answer all questions and do so truthfully, the courts would have to decide whether that's within the scope of Congress's power (probably is) and whether it's prohibited by another part of the Constitution. Particularly the Fifth Amendment which prohibits the government from compelling anyone to be a witness against himself.
The question isn't so much the courts deciding the cases, as the Courts deciding they (and only they) have the authority to declare a law constitutional or unconstitutional, and extending that further.
Taken to an extreme, the authority where by the Courts (and only the Courts) have the capability to decide what is constitutional or not, can break separation of powers. If, for example, the SCOTUS decided to rule that the legislature had no power under the Constitution to remove judges from the SCOTUS...(let's say they decided to rule that SCOTUS judges were not civil officers of the United States)...what would the recourse be?
Congress decides a law is constitutional when they pass it; the Supreme Court is just the final decider. Congress could respond to such a rogue Supreme Court by cutting off all its funding, and impeaching them anyway. Our system does depend on judges generally upholding the law and precedent and tradition; they're much less likely to provoke a constitutional crisis than the executive branch.
Judicial review isn't really controversial. It's not worth arguing with these yahoos over it. Just remember the South Partk rule of thumb: one fourth of the American public is functionally retarded. At least a fourth.
Congress decides a law is constitutional when they pass it;
And the President does the same when he signs it.
Too tough for some to understand.
An Amendment?
Furthermore, it's worth looking at some of Jefferson's writings on the concept of Judicial Review at the time. The concept that the courts (and only the courts) are the supreme authority on what is Constitutional and the law, and what isn't...is a bit extreme.
Marshall's genius was that in establishing such a power, he simultaneously used it to limit the SCOTUS.
But judges "finding" new rights or laws in the Constitution in its own way can break the separation of the powers. If the judges (and only the judges) are allowed to decide what the law is, then it can break the Democracy that we've established. It acts as a go-around for the democratic process, where laws aren't actually responsive the the voters anymore. And it is something to be wary of.
https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/letter-to-william-torrance/
Salty Jefferson is not a great authority.
"He admitted that this could lead to inconvenience when institutions disagreed, but he believed that prudence and public opinion “will generally produce accommodation.”
Amazing take TJ.
"False. The thing you learned in 7th grade social studies is wrong. Judicial review long predates Marbury."
Didn't we eliminate those courts in 1693 after the little problem with accusing the Governor's wife of being a witch?
No, the Constitution was not democratically adopted. A democrat vote is a direct vote by the people. The Constitution was confirmed by representatives in state conventions. You could accurately say the Constitution was confirmed by a republican process, but certainly not a democratic one. The Constitution as confirmed did not contain a Bill of Rights no was one implicitly promised before the Virginia ratification convention.
The idea that the judiciary is infallible or more trustworthy than any other branch of government defies logic. Human beings are corrupt and any branch of government relying on them is corrupt.
The selection of the judiciary is shielded from democratic action at the federal level and is by definition in opposition to democracy.
What is "Democracy"? Is the capital "D" notable?
I say that somewhat non-facetiously.
The people at large support judicial review. They are quite accepting of judges blocking unconstitutional actions in a variety of ways. This is far from necessary. Other countries have judicial review without going as far as we do. Or don't have it.
Is it a threat to "Democracy" for a federal judge to declare a [fill in your favorite example] blatantly unconstitutional law? I don't think so & I don't even have to use general constitutional principles.
The people's will is not violated by it. Maybe, again, I'm serious here, the concern is the scope of the tool at hand. The OP provides an argument why it is necessary.
Still, since "the judiciary" is criticized broadly, it seems there is a bigger concern at issue.
The issue is that the cultists believe that because Trump won the election, he can do what he likes, the Constitution be damned, (They probably also believe that Trump had his fingers crossed when he was sworn in and so the oath isn't binding on him...)
The issue this trumpist has is called "jurisdiction."
If I go into Federal court and get an injunction ordering McDonalds not to serve raw hamburgers, it's only binding on the McDonalds located in the Brave New People's Republic (i.e. MA).
What Kagan missed is that Ed's Injunction would be CITABLE everywhere else, and other Federal judges are likely to agree that the Massachusetts judge got it right and merely cite the MA decision as the rationale for theirs.
That IS what would happen if a President AOC attempted a gun grab -- the first court would actually rule, and the rest would cite that in their rulings.
Why on earth do you think that's true?
Because Judge Garrity is not going to Guam to see if his injunction is being violated.
Why on dog's green earth do you think judges personally travel to remote locations to personally check on proper enforcement of their rulings?
You can't possibly be that dumb.
Though in a humorous coincidence, the judge I clerked for would travel to Guam on occasion (taking a law clerk with him!) to act as a visiting/rotating Federal judge there. Alas, he stopped a few years before I clerked, so I didn't get to check out the Federal courthouse there.
Pretty sure that your federal judge is not going to visit every McDonalds, either.
Democracy is direct action by the governed people. A vote by Congress in not democratic, but the election of the representatives and the Senators, since 1913, is democratic. There is nothing democratic about the federal judiciary whatsoever.
This is why the Samuel Chase precedent is bad.
Chase clearly deserved to be impeached for the charge to the Baltimore Grand Jury, if not more. Impeachment is the (small "d") democratic check on runaway judges -- and why I say we need to have pro-forma impeachments of at least a couple hundred Federal judges. And after the 2026 elections, this well may be feasable.
Not in the slightest. The courts are interpreting and enforcing the laws that were democratically passed.
This is the claim, and the people will ultimately determine the veracity of that proposition.
First, let’s stop pretending that the autocratic whims of one man are “democracy.” Second, even to the extent it is, the constitution is supposed to be a check on democracy.
Sounds like more election denial there. What with that, and the misbehavior in the courts, and threats from the former director of the FBI, one might start to get a little concerned. But I guess we have to destroy democracy to save it. Or something.
I do deny that Trump was elected king.
Wrong.
The President was intended to be a limited tenure king.
Every time one thinks Dr. Ed can't get more stupiderest, he proves one wrong.
Hi, David. Compelling personal insult. It commits the Fallacy of Irrelevance. It is not lawyerly.
The only kings in this disgracefully story are on the S.Ct., aided by over 600 lords in lower court fiefdoms.
David, see: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1501705598/reasonmagazinea-20/
In what way do you think that book supports your claim?
"The President was intended to be a limited tenure king." Sorry, Dr. Ed 2, but that is unmitigated nonsense.
Yes commie, we should quit pretending the autocratic whims of one judge are Democracy. Or are you talking about the man who won a vote of the people to enact the very thing these judicial tyrants are obstructing.
David, the United States Senate is supposed to be a check on democracy, not rogue Federal judges...
They really should have convicted Sameul Chase...
There has always been a presumption of legality with respect to government officials even in standing analysis. But now I guess, in the courts' efforts to expand their jurisdiction, all that is out the window. Because Trump.
2025 is exposing some real problems with the judicial branch. If only we had a responsible Congress to address this. Republicans are cowardly, apart from the President, and Democrats are content to condone anything, as long as they can benefit politically.
There should never have been a presumption of legality. Government isn’t special. But if there is such a presumption, it has been overcome. Presumptions can be rebutted. And the Trump administration has proved itself to be the most dishonest, lawless administration in American history, so no reasonable person would give it the benefit of the doubt any longer.
MOST dishonest?
May I suggest you read up on Lyndon Johnson?
Or even Jack Kennedy, who was running "a damned 'murder incorporated' in the Caribbean." It was LBJ that said that -- and there is actually a book about it. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42505535-murder-inc
Read the Pentagon Papers sometime -- regardless of which side of the isle you are on, you gotta admit that Vietnam was a clusterfuck.
“ MOST dishonest?”
Yes. They don’t even try to pretend they are making a good faith effort to follow norms and laws. They just say, “We aren’t subject to that because we say we aren’t.”.
FDR????
No.
"There should never have been a presumption of legality."
There is always a presumption of legality, inasmuch as the burden of proof always rests with plaintiffs. No matter who they are.
I think you mean the new federal monarchs just assume illegal conduct from the executive under the new federal judicial supremacy. Because Trump, as you note above. They might relinquish their power when someone more politically attuned to their royal preferences wins the presidency. But maybe not. Who can predict the whims of kings?
The OP loves nationwide injunctions now because it benefits his side in this instance. Pretty sure in an alternate timeline when any random conservative judge could stop a leftwing President's agenda or in the future when the tables are turned he'll come up with some twisted logic about how now they have to be reined in.
Hypothetical hypocricy is so easy to prove.
Nationwide injunctions have needed reining in since around the turn of the century. But the purpose of reins is to bring horsepower under control, not to ban horses.
Thus, I agree with the OP's conclusion:
...it doesn't appear to me that there is majority support for a blanket prohibition on non-party injunctions, and I think it more likely that the Court will find some intermediate position that will spell out the conditions under which non-party injunctions are permissible and within the discretion of the district courts. .
This strikes me as exactly what they would *like* to do, ie find a way to give guidance. But as I read the transcript, they'll kick that back down below, so they can judge what the Circuit comes up with. And if the merits of the citizenship issue reaches them, there's no way in hell the administration wins. In a perfect world, perhaps that question could have a more nuanced answer, too, but that is simply not going to happen.
These threads really identify who needs to be muted.
Can you elaborate why democracy matters in this context? The citizens can vote in to power people who have the ability to try to amend the constitution. They can implore their state legislatures to vote to change the constitution. What they can't do is vote for people who promise [explicitly or implicitly] to not follow the constitution and then complain when the court's stand up for the constitution. That is not a failure of democracy. It's a vindication of the rule of law. If the complainers care about democracy; they would welcome an opportunity to fix what they see is a mistake [in the present constitution] because a constitutional amendment would need major public support to pass. That would be democracy working as intended. Executive orders claiming to re-interpret the constitution is most certainly the wrong way to do it in our system.
Windycity, I agree, which is why overturning Chevron was so important, too. There's no difference between an EO interpreting the constitution and an agency determining the meaning of a statute. Nor is "I have a phone and a pen" a substitute for the legislative branch.
"This article demonstrates the huge problem with the judiciary. Democracy is not even considered in this article. Nationwide injunctions run afoul of Democracy, and the legal profession and the judiciary could care less. This is exactly why there is a reckoning coming for the out of control judicial branch of government."
The meaning of a constitutional amendment depends on no plebiscite.
It depends on the initial one.
"It depends on the initial one."
What on earth does that mean?
To the extent the meaning does not depend on what people TODAY want it to mean, I agree. To the extent that the meaning does not mean what the people who enacted it thought it meant, I disagree.
Grounding Originalism by William Baude and Stephen E. Sachs
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1381&context=nulr
"How should we interpret the Constitution? The “positive turn” in legal scholarship treats constitutional interpretation, like the interpretation of statutes or contracts, as governed by legal rules grounded in actual practice. In our legal system, that practice requires a certain form of originalism: our system’s official story is that we follow the law of the Founding, plus all lawful changes made since."
...
"Focusing on social practice as it stands today turns out to direct our attention to the Founders and to the changes over time that their law has recognized."
Originalism as the political project - the one that says the Constitution is frozen in amber in 1780 and has been operating in exile ever since - is silly.
Originalism as the scholarly project to look a how the Constitution was originally intended to be interpreted, that has some heft (though I'm not an originalist myself, I do think it is one of a number of modes that inform Constitutional analysis.)
Democracy is not even considered in this article. Nationwide injunctions run afoul of Democracy, and the legal profession and the judiciary could care less. This is exactly why there is a reckoning coming for the out of control judicial branch of government.
And you'll continue to be upset about courts running "afoul of Democracy" right up until it is a policy you don't like that an injunction is blocking. Then, you'll return the common line of argument I see from everyone the right: "Democracy" is bad. We have a republic and not a democracy, because there has to be something that blocks the tyranny of the majority, so it is good that an injunction is blocking that illegal/unconstitutional policy.
Or, you could make an argument that isn't transparently calibrated for this specific case where the injunction is blocking something you like from the President you support.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot that just a few months ago, all these same people were claiming that America needs to get less democratic and isn't really a democracy anyway.
Birthright citizenship was enacted as part of the 14th amendment to the constitution -- approved by 2/3 of congress + 3/4 of the states. That's democracy. You're saying that an executive order voted on by no one is more democratic than a constitutional amendment? The constitution was designed to protect citizens from the government.
Trump needs to ignore them and advise he will abide by injunctions passed by a majority of SCOTUS only.
If Roberts won't fix the judiciary, somebody else has to.
If Roberts won't fix the judiciary, somebody else has to.
Only Trump can fix it!
You know what it means when it takes a singular leader to fix the largest problems facing a country? That the people are largely powerless, and they need a savior. They can't do anything effective themselves.
Congratulations on admitting that you feel powerless and want a dictator to solve your problems for you.
So when did Justice Kagan change her view?
Who says that she did change her view?
Based on her arguments under Biden...she completely changed her views. Almost night and day difference.
OK. Wessmann v. Boston School Committee, 996 F. Supp. 120 (D. Mass. 1998)
Why wasn't this a national injunction? Why did it only apply to Massachusetts.
People may forget this case as it was overrule by first Grutter v. Bollinger and then Fisher, but there's really no difference between Wessmann and these national injunction cases.
Other than which side the injunction would benefit...
Because the government involved was Massachusetts, not the federal government?
Can you say "non party injunction"?i
Also, the Boston School Department receives considerable Federal money and hence....
You've been misled by the choice of terminology. The so-called "non-party injunctions" only apply to an actual party to the case. (In this case, the federal government.) They do not apply to random other people.
In your case, the only parties to the case were the Boston school board (and some affiliated individuals); those were the only ones to whom the injunctions could be issued.
“ Also, the Boston School Department receives considerable Federal money and hence....”
Hence what? It wasn’t the federal government, it was a city government agency in a single state. What do you think would have been the injunction and who would it have been relevant to?
Um, duh? Because it was challenging the actions of the Boston school board. Which are in effect only in Boston.
So, what happens when one judge says yes and one judge says no? This is the real problem, in addition to the grossly anti-democratic reality of judicial supremacy. Why have a President or Congress at all??? All we need are left wing, proto-Communist judges to decide everything?
Yes, you dumbshit MAGA. Courts blocking illegal actions by the president is exactly like having no president or Congress at all.
“ So, what happens when one judge says yes and one judge says no?”
IANAL, but I believe that’s what the appellate courts are for. Disputes get the case kicked up the ladder, so to speak.
Is that the case, lawyers?
Fair's fair, remember all of the nationwide injunctions that stopped Abortion???
"Fair's fair, remember all of the nationwide injunctions that stopped Abortion???"
Which nationwide injunctions were those, Frank? In 1973 state statutes restricting abortion in Texas and Georgia were found to to be unconstitutional, but no injunction ever issued.
In Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), the District Court in Texas (314 F.Supp. 1217 (N.D.Tex.1970)) held that the 'fundamental right of single women and married persons to choose where to have children is protected by the Ninth Amendment, through the Fourteenth Amendment,' and that the Texas criminal abortion statutes were void on their face because they were both unconstitutionally vague and constituted an overbroad infringement of the plaintiffs' Ninth Amendment rights. The court then held that abstention was warranted with respect to the requests for an injunction. It therefore dismissed the Does' complaint, declared the abortion statutes void, and dismissed the application for injunctive relief. 410 U.S. at 122. SCOTUS affirmed in part and reversed in part, but also declined to issue any injunction:
410 U.S. at 166.
In Doe v. Bolton, 410 U.S. 179 (1973), the District Court in Georgia (319 F.Supp. 1048 (N.D. Ga. 1970)) issued a declaratory judgment holding that some parts of the challenged statutes were unconstitutional, that other parts were valid, and denied the plaintiffs' request for an injunction. 410 U.S. at 186-187. SCOTUS affirmed that decision in part, modified it in part, and denied injunctive relief:
410 U.S. at 201.
There is no substitute for original source materials.
Even in Gonzales v. Carhart, 550 U.S. 124 (2007), where SCOTUS reversed the lower courts' rulings which had invalidated a federal ban on "partial birth abortions," the District Court had expressly declined to issue a nationwide injunction. Carhart v. Ashcroft, 331 F.Supp.2d 805, 1004 (D. Neb. 2004).
I see you’ve got the Ass-Burger’s also, failing to recognize my obvious sarcasm, of course there weren’t any nationwide injunctions against Abortion, you want even more Blacks?????
I don't actually see how an injunction that says "the executive branch may not enforce this unlawful executive order" is a non-party injunction if the executive branch is in fact a party. Similarly situated individuals whose birthright citizenship is disputed are not actually ordered to do anything.
I agree with this. It is fairly common in run of the mill civil cases too, to issue an injunction ordering one of the parties to do or stop doing something generally, not necessarily only with respect to the other party. For example, the permanent injunction in Epic v. Google ordered Google to refrain from taking certain actions on the Android app store, and did *not* limit its scope to only Epic's Android apps. This was within the court's power because it only bound Google, who was in fact a party.
I think this is exactly right.
The executive is a party to the case.
The executive is being ordered to refrain from specific behavior.
It’s not a national injunction. It’s an injunction against the executive.
A national injunction would extrapolate a local case in Florida to a local dispute in California.
District courts can only apply rulings to the defendants in front of said court.
We have DISTRICTS for a reason.
A judicial tyranny is not a good thing.
Perhaps we should encourage people to give the Kavanaugh treatment to other SCOTUS justices. They would receive no extra protection, after all.
We agree. (Or those acting in concert with those defendants.) And good news: that's what the district courts here are doing! The government is the defendant in front of these courts! And that's who the rulings apply to!
I think the big problem is with a very junior federal judge making a decision for the entire country which may block the administration's agenda for years.
I also see the argument that you can't make every single person affected by a policy sue individually.
Why can't we split the baby and say that district courts can only issue district wide injunctions?
I think you're substituting a first poor "one size fits all" description of a problem with another poor "one size fits all" solution.
If the gov't decides to quarter soldiers in private houses in every district in the country starting tomorrow, in clear violation of the Third Amendment*, what purpose does it serve to require litigation in every district in the country?
Sometimes a nationwide injunction can be a clear, proper, efficient, and in the manifest interests of justice and prevention of tyranny concerning a truly national issue with core constitutional concerns.
This is why picking birthright citizenship as the issue to litigate "no national injunctions no way ever no how nuh-uh!" is such an inexplicably stupid legal strategy. There's little I can think of that's more obviously national, and the yes/no reading of the 14th Amd is as "core" as it gets.
But also ... sometimes not. I have no problem with expedited review, random 3-judge panels to confirm an initial emergency order, or other potential solutions to some of the forum shopping concerns and "buh-buh-but single judge!" whining.
IMHO people who want to make this such a complete dichotomy - both on the left and the right - are bonkers.
*I tried to pick an example that's as non-right/left as possible.
There are 94 federal court districts. If a policy is facially unconstitutional presumably each case against it could be virtually identical so the burden of filling 94 cases would not be that extreme.
I could see a super fast appeals process but I think a better approach would be a way for a district court to develop a record and then kick it up to a circuit court for a circuit level injunction. That lets you get a nation wide injunction with only thirteen cases.
Will it be automatic that the people filing those "virtually identical" cases in 94 different districts have their attorney fees paid by the government when they win on the merits?
"This is why picking birthright citizenship as the issue to litigate 'no national injunctions no way ever no how nuh-uh!' is such an inexplicably stupid legal strategy. There's little I can think of that's more obviously national, and the yes/no reading of the 14th Amd is as 'core' as it gets."
Perhaps that is why SCOTUS chose to hear this particular case on an expedited basis. The Solicitor General, by choosing to seek a partial stay on non-merits grounds, may be hoist with his own petard. W. Shakespeare, Hamlet act 3, scene 4.
And I continue to think that SCOTUS will use this case to erect some guardrails as to what does or does not constitute an "emergency" worthy of the shadow docket -- even though oral argument did not include much discussion of that topic.
"The purpose of a preliminary injunction is merely to preserve the relative positions of the parties until a trial on the merits can be held." University of Texas v. Camenisch, 451 U.S. 390, 395 (1981). Prior to issuance of President Trump's Execrable Order on January 21, 2025 the relative position of the parties and the federal government was the recognition for 127 years of Fourteenth Amendment birthright citizenship.
If the administration is blocked, it can appeal and reach a court that can legitimately decide a nationwide injunction; your alternative leaves nobody to appeal if the government chooses to be stubborn and would require a loss in every district to block the most blatantly unconstitutional action. Or more briefly, what Zarniwoop said.
I think the big problem is with a very junior federal judge making a decision for the entire country which may block the administration's agenda for years.
That's why it isn't only up to them. The administration can appeal those rulings by a District judge. If the Circuit court ruling doesn't go their way, they can appeal to the Supreme Court.
The alternative is to let the federal government keep doing, for years, what has been alleged to be a violation of individual rights. And, that each individual whose rights are allegedly violated has to bring their own lawsuit, assuming that they can afford a lawyer. Like Magister, I think that Zarniwoop explains the issue fairly well.
One thing I would add is how some are talking about the fact that District courts have limited geographical jurisdiction. But that is misunderstanding things, I think. The lawyers with knowledge of federal courts can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that it is important to note that District judges do not 'represent' only the people within the geographical boundaries of their District. They are still federal judges. The boundaries of their districts seems to me to be about dividing the workload of cases, and not about keeping a judge tied to the area where they hear those cases in the way you might think about state court judges (especially elected ones or ones that are appointed and then face retention elections periodically). Judges in District courts are there to adjudicate disputes within federal law and the Constitution, and the specific boundaries of their district is not relevant to that.
Kagan's logic is sound, but it only applies to cases where it is clear the government is on the losing side in lower courts. This is such a case because we have 127 years of unbroken precedent. That is, only SCOTUS can reverse the precedent and nationwide injunctions for decisions below insure no one else can reverse it.
But, for most cases the logic doesn't apply. This should be an exception that permits a nationwide injunction, not the rule.
The government does not agree with your characterization of precedent. All your compromise position does is give a roadmap to say that if a litigant is, in the lower court's opinion, clearly wrong or some other such standard, then they can order nationwide injunctions.
Either they have the power or don't. It cannot hinge on a lower court's evaluation of the case. The point is that it doesn't have power over strangers to the litigation in any event.
No doubt the government thinks they are right on the merits. But it's nonsense if they think precedent (court cases and practice uninterrupted in 127 years) is anything but 100% against them. The government is entitled to make their case to SCOTUS, but not to have their way in most of the country by losing in pockets of the country, escape a nationwide injunction., and not appeal to SCOTUS (Kagan's logic).
I am not proposing that a lower court can justify a nationwide injunction because it believes one side is clearly wrong (that's too broad and begs the question). But in very rare cases, it could happen, this being one of them. And, that's why this case is a bad vehicle for SCOTUS to weigh in on nationwide injunctions.
No doubt the government thinks they are right on the merits.
Well, I, for one, do doubt it. I think the illegal behaviors came first, followed by some sort desperate grabbing at legal straws in the hop they could get by
Wong Kim Ark discussed "a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China...."
It is not frivolous or so lacking in merit (so as to cause an exception to the general rule) to argue that parents who are in this country surreptitiously and illegally, and do not have such a permanent domicile or residence in the United States may NOT confer citizenship on a child born here. To that extent any court, even a lower court, could find that Wong Kim Ark is distinguishable.
I'm not saying that I agree with that argument, but it is not so off the wall that it should be dismissed out of hand and that we have an entirely new procedure for lower courts to deal with what is in your opinion a bad argument.
You dismiss the "clear error" or other such standard, but that would be the practical effect if the lower court sides with the challengers in any case. No national injunction normally, but oh yes, certainly in this case. And name the issue; you'll find 1 of 667 judges who will think the government is making an off the wall argument---even for clearly controversial issues.
Trump did not make up the anti-birthright citizenship argument. It has been around conservative circles since the 1990s.
I agree the argument is not so far off the wall it can be dismissed out of hand. I am arguing every single decision and practice for the past 127 years have dismissed it (merely having arguments the other way don't cut it). What other cases have that record?
" I am arguing every single decision and practice for the past 127 years have dismissed it...."
Can you put a number on that claim?
Not an exact number, but we have 50 states, plus DC, plus the federal government each with multiple agencies that have treated all children born in the USA (except for three exceptions named in Wong) as citizens. That's certainly a large number.
Sotomayor is the only one out of the nine justices who says that Trump's EO is contrary to Scotus precedent.
Well Roe v Wade lasted 49 years before being overruled. That's quite a while.
And Wong Kim Ark itself overturned the Slaughterhouse and Elk v Wilkins precedents.
The interesting bit - which I'm confident SCOTUS will dodge - is :
what do the four acknowleged exceptions to birthright citizenship have in common ? SCOTUS dodged answering that in Wong Kim Ark too. And how does this secret common factor tie in with the concept of "jurisdiction" ?
It doesn't?
1) Wong Kim ark did not overrule Elk.
2) Wong Kim Ark did not dodge answering anything; the “secret common factor” (which is not secret) is jurisdiction.
I knew you'd be right along to say that !
And particularly I knew you'd decline to offer any analysis of what meaning of "jurisdiction" achieves the four and only four exceptions result.
The meaning of jurisdiction: may the government enforce its laws against these people.
The government may enforce its laws against members of invading armies. This is well established international law. Doing so may be difficult but the same applies to fugitives.
I think you're a bit confused about how armies work. Or invasions. Or both.
No, the police cannot go arrest a soldier who is a member of an occupying force.
Nieporent : The meaning of jurisdiction: may the government enforce its laws against these people.
Obviously it doesn't mean anything as simple as that.
1. The United States seeks to enforce its laws on non citizens for acts performed outside the United States, and sometimes gets a conviction - eg Noriega; a bunch of Russian based Russian intelligence officers during the Mueller thing, and no doubt plenty more. And of course US tax and reporting laws are enforced against everyone in the world who has US source income, even when they've never set foot here.
2. The Elk v Wilkins exception demonstrates that Indians not taxed were not "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" for the purposes of 14A. But Indians not taxed certainly were "subject to the jurisdiction" in the vague general sense that you offer - ie merely that the US's laws can be applied to them. Or else the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 could not make then citizens.
The Act does not offer US citizenship as a choice, to non citizen Indians, it just declares them citizens - thereby demonstrating that as far as the US was concerned, immediately prior to the coming into force of that Act, they were already subject to the jurisdiction of the US in the handwavy Nieporentian sense.
So that's what mean - it would be nice if SCOTUS unravelled the puzzle of what precisely "subject to the jursdiction" means, and how it explains the various exceptions. The one thing we can be sure of though is that the answer is not the one you offered. Because it doesn't explain the exceptions.
1) The 14th amendment requires two things for birthright citizenship: that the person be born in the U.S. and subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. Noriega, of course, fails the first half of the test, so the observation that we can apply laws to him doesn't have any relevance to this discussion.
2) Indians were not subject to the jurisdiction. Here's how Trumbull put it during the debates over the 14th amendment's language:
He elaborated:
Indian tribes were sui generis under U.S. law; they were within the territorial borders of the country, but were considered quasi-sovereign nations.
1. Noriega, of course, fails the first half of the test, so the observation that we can apply laws to him doesn't have any relevance to this discussion.
On the contrary it is directly on point. I'm not making a claim that Noriega was a US citizen but that - under your definition :
"The meaning of jurisdiction: may the government enforce its laws against these people."
...he was "subject to the jurisdiction of the US." Because the US government enforced its laws against him. Thus "subject to the jurisdiction of the US" in 14A does not simply mean that the US may enforce its laws against you. Otherwise everyone in the world would - like Noriega - be "subject to the jurisdiction of the US." It must mean something else. Which ....
2.....you kindly provide by offering a competely different definition of "subject to the jurisdiction" in your Trumball quote :
"What do we mean by subject to the jurisdiction of the United States Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.....
They [Indians] are not subject to our jurisdiction in the sense of owing allegiance solely to the United States
So it's all about "allegiance."
"Indian tribes were sui generis under U.S. law; they were within the territorial borders of the country, but were considered quasi-sovereign nations"
But Mexico and Guatemala and so on are actual sovereign nations - not mere quasi-nations. If Navajo Indians didn't owe allegiance solely to the United States, and so were not "subject to the jurisdiction of the US" then the same holds a fortiori for Mexicans, Guatemalans and so on.
The point is that you were able to defend "The meaning of jurisdiction: may the government enforce its laws against these people" for only about 20 seconds before having to tap dance off to a different defintion concerning "allegiance."
Indicating that further work is required.
The Trumbull quote that is salient is "Can you sue a Navajoe Indian in [an American] court?" Not always.
Subject to the jurisdiction has for 127+ years been given its most obvious meaning: you are always accountable for your conduct while in the USA in American courts.
Had the president issued an EO banning abortion (or if you prefer Congress passed a law doing so) during Roe's tenure, a nationwide injunction would have been appropriate for the first district judge to invalidate the law.
The four exceptions are for parents who could not always be held accountable in US courts (but even if I am wrong, that makes no difference in the nationwide injunction argument).
I am not aware of it being raised in the past 127 years. It is a novel argument---one not relevant in the era before massive illegal immigration.
It doesn't matter if the argument had yet to be raised. 127 uninterrupted years of the status quo suffices for a nationwide injunction preserving the status quo until SCOTUS says the status quo is no more.
https://reason.com/volokh/2018/07/16/understanding-constitutional-liquidation/
Would it be frivolous or so lacking in merit to argue that the children of people who are citizens of Thailand aren't citizens, because WKA only mentioned China and not Thailand? Could a lower court find that WKA is distinguishable on that basis?
Of course not. The country of the parents is not a relevantly dissimilar issue. I suppose if a litigant could find one it could make that argument.
Illegal presence v. legal presence can impact the "subject to the jurisdiction" language that was at issue in Wong Kim Ark but not decided, especially when it is a novel concept and related to the idea that others here without permission---like an invading army---do not get citizenship.
“ Illegal presence v. legal presence can impact the "subject to the jurisdiction" language”
How? As I understand it, illegal immigrants are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in that they are subject to arrest and prosecution. They aren’t citizens (or even resident aliens), but that doesn’t impact the applicability of American jurisdiction to them.
Now do Noriega.
You mean the guy who wasn’t born in the US?
Yeah that guy. You offered :
"illegal immigrants are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in that they are subject to arrest and prosecution"
The fact that Noriega was arrested, and prosecuted and convicted, in a US court, despite being a non citizen whose crimes were committed in Panama demonstrates that he meets the defintion of "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" that you wish to use for 14A. But then if he meets it, then so does everybody else in the world.
Hinting that your definition is incorrect.
Of course most of the world is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States because they can be held accountable for all their conduct while in the USA in American courts (Indians and diplomats excepted, and possibly others by treaty).
But, you make it sound like "subject to the jurisdiction" is the only requirement to be a 14th Amendment US citizen at birth. Hint: it isn't.
No. I am trying to get y’all to define coherently that component of 14A that is worded thus :
“subject to the jurisdiction of the United States”
It has been alleged that this expression means simply that US law may be applied to you. But Noriega’s case demonstrates that US law can be applied to you even if you are a Panamanian doing your stuff in Panama.
Hence that he was “subject to the jurisdiction of the United States” under your favoured definition has nothing to do with “being held accountable for your conduct while you are in the United States.”
No. The argument is that US law applies to you for your conduct while in the USA. Whether US law applies to you while you are in Panama does not matter. It's a red herring.
And (again) yes, (just about) everyone in the entire world is subject to the jurisdiction on the Unites States. So what?
"Illegal presence v. legal presence can impact the "subject to the jurisdiction" language that was at issue in Wong Kim Ark but not decided, especially when it is a novel concept and related to the idea that others here without permission---like an invading army---do not get citizenship."
Let's test that by means of a hypothetical. Suppose two Canadian parents crossed the border unlawfully and gave birth in a hospital in Detroit in 2000. The infant grew thereafter up within the United States, and in 2026 he shoots Clarence Thomas and his wife to death on the steps of the Supreme Court building because he doesn't like the justice's rulings. That is conduct prohibited by various federal criminal statutes, including 18 U.S.C. §§ 111, 115, 351 and 1114.
Is our hypothetical assassin exempt from federal criminal prosecution because he is not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States?
That obviously depends on what "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" means.
If it means simply that US laws can be enforced against you then the now grown infant is "subject to the jurisdiction of the US" because the laws of the US can be enforced against him. But if that's all it means then everyone in the world is subject to the jurisdiction of the US - since the US sometimes chooses to enforce its laws extraterritorially, against foreigners.
But if "What do we mean by subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Not owing allegiance to anybody else" is closer to the mark, then it doesn't have to refer to everyone in the world, and perhaps not to your overgrown Canadian infant.
Dual citizenship has long been recognized in American law. For example, in Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717 (1952), Tomoya Kawakita "was born in this country in 1921 of Japanese parents who were citizens of Japan. He was thus a citizen of the United States by birth, Amendment XIV, § 1 and, by reason of Japanese law, a national of Japan." Id., at 720. He was in Japan when World War II broke out and stayed in Japan until the war was over. After returning to the United States, he was arrested and charged with treason for having abused American prisoners of war. Kawakita claimed he could not be found guilty of treason since he had lost his U.S. citizenship while in Japan, but this argument was rejected by the courts, which ruled that he had in fact retained his U.S. citizenship during the war. SCOTUS opined:
343 U.S. at 723-724 (footnote omitted).
No, it can't. It literally can't. Whether a person got a visa or snuck cross a border has literally zero relationship to whether the government can enforce its laws against that person.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with permission. It has to do with the fact that the government doesn't have control over the territory anymore; the invading army does.
As I have written on a previous thread, numerous SCOTUS decisions since United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), have acknowledged the American citizenship of infants born to alien parents who were unlawfully present in the United States at the time of the child's birth. For example:
The Supreme Court has expressly rejected the contention that undocumented aliens, because of their immigration status, are not "persons within the jurisdiction" of the State of Texas:
Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202, 210 (1982). It would be monstrous for the federal government to exclude children born in the United States to unlawful alien parents -- which parents are themselves entitled to due process and equal protection of law -- from the rights and obligations of American citizenship.
This. Regardless of one's opinion on the merits ("... everyone's got one"), this is about the worst possible vehicle I can think of for the current administration to make arguments about the procedural part.
Specifically:
1) item with smack-you-in-the-face-obvious national impact
2) where having different rules in different districts will likely produce chaotic issues for states to resolve
3) on a pure legal question about interpretation of one of the most impactful constitutional amendments we have
4) where there's been 125+ years of consistent interpretation (whether you think it right or wrong! stop going "but the merits!" for a second), but the gov't has created the "emergency" ... so the harm to the gov't of waiting for review is what, exactly?
5) where expedited review up to the S.Ct. would be pretty easy to do
If there's every been any case in my lifetime where a national injunction is a good idea, this is it.
There are certainly edge cases where the Trump administration might have won over some Justices because a lone district court turned a local problem into a national injunction. This ain't that.
This is a great scenario for a majority of the S.Ct. to lead with "in this case, a national injunction is clearly proper. We set some limits, though, as follows ..."
Or better yet, just hold that the nationwide injunction stands because New Jersey cannot get complete relief without such an injunction and don't say boo about anything else. But then, why did SCOTUS agree to hear the case at this juncture?
It's a legit Q!
The conspiratorial minded might think there were 4 or 5 Justices (liberals plus pick .. Roberts and/or Barrett?) who were so amazingly clever that they figured they could get to a majority of "in at least some cases national injunctions are proper". Even with some limits or guidance to lower courts, that's not what the Executive maximalists want here.
Because it makes the fight is about where to draw the line, rather than "no line". Which will take more cases, and more time ... and is harder for Thomas/Alito to get to a majority opinion that says "never allowed no matter how egregious the Constitutional violation".
But regardless, for the government to try to bring this case as their first salvo against the concept in every conceivable case is just ... really, really inept lawyering. So, you know, pretty much par for Trump's "best people".
If nothing else, they'd prefer a few more fact patterns + ability to select their preferred test case(s) for the inevitable SCOTUS review.
The EO denies 14th Amendment birthright citizenship to the children when both parents are not either citizens or green card holders. What different fact pattern would impact the outcome?
We have two basic datapoints ATM. Lawful green card holders = yes; children of diplomats/invading soldiers = no. There are an almost infinite number of datapoints between those two poles.
For example, children of people on tourist visas? Who have overstayed student visas? Of invited/allied soldiers? Of green card holders who lied to get the card? Of green card holders who have done something to make them eligible for deportation? Of temp visa holders who have applied for a green card and are eligible, but the government hasn't done the paperwork? Children of random international NGO's (i.e., not "diplomats")? Children of people who have renounced their citizenship? Children of "dreamers"? Children of people whom were wrongly issued green cards? Children of people who wrongly claim asylum, but are allowed to stay pending a formal hearing? Can the tribes allow people in if they stay on tribal lands? Can the tribes recognize diplomats? People who have kids while in transit e.g., airport or cruise ship in US territorial waters? People who give birth while temporarily in US territories e.g., Guantanamo Bay? People who give birth while temporarily in a US embasy?
You're reading a precedent more narrowly than we have for the past century.
Wong Kim Ark didn't rely on the residency status at all. And it's been taken as such.
We have tons of data points across all 3 branches of government for over 100 years.
Fair enough, but are those discretionary or mandatory?
You probably know there's a 14th Amendment, Section 1, Supreme Court case (Plyer) that says specifically that both illegal aliens and their children are "within its jurisdiction" for equal protection purposes. It wasn't an offhand footnote, it was in the summary and was directly refuting Texas's main argument that they weren't.
And the children in Plyer weren't even born here. It would be tough to argue that children born here are less within the jurisdiction than those not.
Unless Plyer gets overturned it looks like you don't have much wiggle room. I suppose the diehards will try to say "subject to the jurisdiction" in the first sentence means something different than "within its jurisdiction" in the second sentence.
A diehard might say that when it is absolutely true. Diplomats and their children are not "subject to the jurisdiction" but I wouldn't believe that the Court would hold that you could send them to racially segregated schools since the Equal Protection Clause (under your distinction) doesn't apply.
Could anyone (other than their parents or their own government) send the children of diplomats to a US school?
fake edit: I'll note that we are also a bit schizophrenic on the point e.g., we don't send all these corner-case kids an income tax bill
But it would be funny if we started...
How many citizens get sent an income tax bill?
When they get jobs here and make income, they sure will pay taxes.
How about when they get jobs elsewhere?
>When they get jobs here
Irrelevant. US citizens are taxed on their worldwide income. Worse, even if we don't owe anything, we still need to file a tax return or face a $500 penalty.
In some ways, the "birth tourism" parents are doing their kids a disservice.
So it sure sounds like we DO send all these kids an income tax bill
“ Worse, even if we don't owe anything, we still need to file a tax return or face a $500 penalty.”
What are you talking about. If you have zero taxable income, you don’t have to file a return, except for some very specific exceptions. It’s a good idea if you have withholdings, because you’ll want those back, but you won’t be fined if you don’t.
>So it sure sounds like we DO send all these kids an income tax bill
We should, but as far as I know, we don't. We kinda treat them as potential citizens vs. current citizens by automatic operation of the Constitution.
It seems possible that if an adult shows up with proof of birthright citizenship, who has lived abroad to that point, then the US government might want to resolve any tax they owe. But they likely wouldn't be pursuing them prior to that point; how would the US government find them or do anything about them?
This is a facial challenge to an EO that applies to most of the people you list. To prevail, the plaintiffs have to show the EO violates the 14th Amendment for each and everyone of those people. And, the case does not depend in any way on the people in your list for whom the EO does not apply (e.g., a person who lied about their green card).
As such, none of those different people (the changing fact patterns) impacts how this case will come out. We have all the facts we need to decide this case.
No. And you’re not thinking of this correctly at all. Asking about all these categories of people that the government has created over the last century presumes that the government can create new categories of non-citizens. But the entire point of the 14th amendment was to constitutionalize birthright citizenship so that governments couldn’t decide who was a citizen or not.
Josh -- Two Words: Aroostook War (1838-39). There was a very real fear of illegal Immigration as a means to seize territory in Maine, Michigan, and elsewhere. Ever hear of "54-40 or fight"? or the 1859 Pig War?
There is no way the people who wrote the 14th Amd ever intended birthright citizenship.
Except they did, and said they did, and wrote an amendment that did.
Other than that? But what if Dr. Ed doesn’t want to accept facts he doesn’t like? It’s come up a time or two.
SFW Ed. I'm not arguing the merits. I am only arguing we have had 127 years of unbroken precedent that says your interpretation is wrong which justifies a nationwide injunction from a district court. That injunction holds until SCOTUS says you were right all along (but don't hold your breath waiting for that outcome).
You still haven't articulated how sufficiently "wrong" a party has to be to justify a departure from the norm of no national injunction and what would stop a single district court judge from claiming such wrongness. You disavow a "clear error" standard, but what would you propose? Is this a "good for one ride only" coupon?
127 uninterrupted years of the status quo, whether that status quo is right or wrong suffices.
The point is that it doesn't have power over strangers to the litigation in any event.
The federal government being sued is not a "stranger to the litigation" as to how it would apply to other potential cases. That argument is only being applied to the plaintiffs here, not the government.
There is a flaw in this line of argument that I don't know if the critics like you are recognizing. Extend this line of thinking to any defendant that is a large organization, not just the government, and you'll quickly see where it leads.
Picture a large company, like Amazon, that is sued by plaintiffs in one state under federal law. Maybe they are employees at a warehouse, maybe they are customers, or maybe they are neither but they are affected by Amazon's actions in another way. One plaintiff gets an injunction to stop Amazon from continuing the action that is (allegedly) harming them while the case proceeds. But it only applies to the actions that affect that one plaintiff. Anyone else that is being harmed has to file their own lawsuit.
It should be obvious that this would not be just, since Amazon can afford the legal fees associated with defending themselves from lawsuits far more easily than the average person, and certainly than the average worker at a warehouse making low wages. If Amazon is doing this harmful thing because it is much cheaper to defend against and maybe eventually settle a few lawsuits than to avoid the harm in the first place, then why not continue doing whatever that was?
This is not a new problem nor is it purely a thought experiment. It certainly is the way large businesses behave in the real world at least some of the time. And if you think that class actions would be a solution to that, well, guess who has the resources to lobby legislatures to write the law to make it harder to certify a class for a class action lawsuit?
Whether it is corporations or governments that are the defendants when people seek injunctions to stop being harmed by that large, powerful entity, it is in the interest only of those large organizations to make each person being harmed sue separately in order to get an order to stop causing harm.
The question of children of illegals being citizens was not before the court.
"The question of children of illegals being citizens was not before the court.?
Which case(s) are you talking about?
SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark discussed the exceptions to Fourteenth Amendment birthright citizenship, to-wit:
No exception to Fourteenth Amendment birthright citizenship has since been recognized by SCOTUS.
This represents an outsized view of the power of the courts. Their task is to do equity to the parties before them. If Able, Baker, and Charlie get their relief, the courts did their jobs. And if Dave, Edward, and Frank sue next, they will have a pretty easy job because of the precedent set by the Able case. Probably a pro se litigant could handle it.
Kagan's (and the author's) view is that the Supreme Court must have the power to reach out and rule on any case it likes and bind everyone because it is just that important. That is contrary to our system of government. If the government is content to lose every case, then justice is being served in every instance.
If the government keeps going to court with the same argument that it has lost 52,000 times in the past, then Rule 11 sanctions are appropriate.
That assumes Dave Edward and Frank have attorneys, know their rights, and have relatively cheap easy access to court decisions. Apparently there are some people who imagine this all to be true for everyone. It's not.
Keep the hypo in mind. This is a "can it stop Hitler" type of law. An easy case, one that will certainly have national interest and free legal representation. TdA deportees and illegal alien children who are infants or in some cases not yet born aren't exactly people with means who know the court system, but they have robust representation.
There is no reason to think that would change in any of the other hypotheticals.
Divide the number of individuals affected by the EO by three.That's how many "easy" cases have to be heard to protect everyone.
That's just the point. A lawsuit is not supposed to "protect everyone." It is supposed to vindicate the rights of the plaintiff. These lawsuits have done that.
If I successfully sue my neighbor for playing his music too loud, I get injunctive relief and my neighbor has to turn it down. As a coincidental result of my case, the other people on my street get relief. But the left would envision the court ruling not just for me but for the whole nation to be free from the nuisance of loud music everywhere. This would allegedly be justified because some people don't have the money or know-how to get proper access to courts to bring a nuisance suit.
That is simply beyond the power of a court in a particular case or controversy.
Except in this case the loud noise is the federal government violating the constitution and the neighborhood is the entire country. Other than that, a perfect analogy.
Absolutely not. My injury is cured if the government recognizes me as a citizen. I don't need them to recognize everyone else or anyone else.
my neighbor ≠ the federal government
the other people on my street ≠ the entire country
Your argument is identical those attempting equate your house to the entire country, or your mortgage to the national debt, or a private business to the federal government. But as most people learned from Sesame Street, One of these things is not like the others; both of these things are not the same.
Other than that, great point!
“ Absolutely not. My injury is cured if the government recognizes me as a citizen.”
Does the government have an obligation to acknowledge their error at some point? Or are they allowed to pretend they are justified in constantly losing the same case over and over without it ever causing them to be enjoined?
It's worse. Under the left wing Justice view, the neighbors who were not parties can sue for contempt if you think the music has been turned down but they want it turned down more.
That's just how we do it. We're a common law country (except maybe LA); we let the law evolve over time and in little bites.
National injunctions short-circuit that fundamental process.
This is the problem. There is no shortage of legal resources for the illegal alien gangster. But none for Dave, Edward, or Frank.
They don't get them for free, and they can't afford to pay for them.
This is why I think a civil war is coming because the exact same situation existed in France, circa 1785.
Your civil war boner is well-known and completely insane. We aren’t heading towards a civil war.
The other advantage of this approach is that it lets multiple judges consider the issue e.g., maybe we'll get a traditional circuit split.
This executive has demonstrated that their strategy is not to win in court.
Their strategy is to deport and imprison faster than the courts can react.
This is why we can’t have nice things.
1+
The actual strategy is:
1: Attempt to deport
2: Know the courts will stop them
3: Know that there will be gristly crimes as a result
4: Campaign in 2026 on 2 & 3.
“ If the government is content to lose every case, then justice is being served in every instance.”
So your contention is that if the government can draw things out and make it as slow, costly, difficult, and delayed as possible, that is just fine? There isn’t an actionable event at delay #5 or #39 or #274? They can just keep going and no one can say, “C’mon, Your Honor. They have lost repeatedly for over 6 months. Can we just stop the charade?”? That seems like pretty abusive behavior by the government and detrimental to the interests of justice.
This seems persuasive, but I note that a lot of the objections would be minimized if we adopted a norm of broad injunctions getting rapidly processed through the upper courts.
It definitely would help, but I don't see that happening in the main. SCOTUS generally doesn't want to (and on a structural level really can't) be in the business of refereeing 0-day lower-court squabbles with undeveloped records and based on the viewpoint of one or just a handful of regionally-concentrated judges. They've stepped in recently in some of the more extreme cases, but clearly haven't been happy about it.
That said, it's not clear to me yet how much of the current dynamic is simply due to the dramatically increased liberties judges have taken using nationwide injunctions as a real-time policy shaping tool. In the past ~25 years we've literally gone from 5-10 per decade to 5-10 per month.
" In the past ~25 years we've literally gone from 5-10 per decade to 5-10 per month."
You'd think that people would concede this was a problem...
It is a problem, with the executive, not the courts. Executives of both parties have acted with impunity toward Congress and the courts. Albeit, none moreso than Trump, but that is what Tyger are doing.
Why does this need to be addressed rapidly? We’ve had birthright citizenship for 150 years. What difference does it make whether we end it in 2025 or 2026?
Speaking at a university event in 2022, Justice Elena Kagan, a liberal, addressed how nationwide injunctions – when coupled with forum-shopping – were hamstringing administrations of both parties, asserting that “It just can’t be right that one district judge can stop a nationwide policy in its tracks and leave it stopped for the years that it takes to go through the normal process,” Kagan said.
It’s on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AWZcsp6wGc
Kagan is the smartest one in her wing. If she can’t keep her story straight it’s not for lack of brains.
Different strokes for different folks.
There is a difference in saying that District Judges have been too quick to order them and they should not be an ordinary remedy vs they are categorically barred. The likely result of this case is we are going to get guidance on when nationwide injunctions can be issued. And that will be that they are allowed but certain conditions need to be met which are more strict than what has been happening.
Jusitces also expressed issues with the speed at which the cases come to the court. It may be that this gets minimized if the nationwide injuctions decrease and they can expedite those that occur. If there are too many that isn't possible
Except she didn't simply say that judges were too quick to order them. The quote in the post you responded to:
“It just can’t be right that one district judge can stop a nationwide policy in its tracks and leave it stopped for the years that it takes to go through the normal process,” Kagan said.
Nothing in there says anything about too quick. She says "It just can't be right."
[…]
So there's more than one solution to her critique:
1) random 3-judge panels
2) expedited review (the S.Ct. might have to sit during summers sometimes, oh noes)
3) other procedural changes such as heightened Winter requirements for the broader scope of national relief
Nothing in Kagan's comments requires an absolute rejection of every possible scenario for nationwide relief.
"... and now we're just haggling about the price."
That was (D)ifferent!
OK, let's say the IRS, complying with the injunction, attempts to collect taxes from Dog, who was born in the US to tourists on tourist visas. Dog is happy where he is and has no desire to be an American citizen. Why should he have to pay taxes when both he and the US executive agree that he's not an American citizen?
And somebody please think up an interesting hypo for Dog's sister, Easy.
In the outsized view of the powers of courts, it is not enough that parties agree and therefore have no controversy. Court MUST reach out, foster disagreement, create a controversy, and then decide it. That is our imperial judiciary.
Because it’s not up to either him or the government. (And this is a good example of why we should say “administration” rather than “government.”) If he doesn’t want to be a citizen, he has a way to effectuate that.
Of course it is. Dog doesn't want to pay taxes nor be considered a citizen. The government (or administration if you prefer) says "Fine, we don't consider you a citizen and aren't asking for taxes."
No problem. No case or controversy. No role for courts to play.
Why in your view is it a court's business to create a case or controversy where none exists? Anyone else uncomfortable with Dog and the government's arrangement has no standing because they are not injured by this relationship. What you are talking about would be a general grievance that the plaintiff simply wants the government to follow the law---something that time and again has been held not to confer standing.
In the example, I (the taxpayer) am aggrieved, because that other citizen gets a pass on taxes and I don't.
By "indispensable", I assume she means only allowable and legitimately used for left wing legal causes.
Part of the problem with the "nationwide" aspect is that too often a plaintiff can choose a particularly favorable district court (for example, Texas if the challenge is to a Democratic President's action or California if it's a challenge to a GOP President) or even choose a particularly favorable judge (e.g., in some of the one-judge Texas divisions).
One way of reining this in would be for the courts to follow the intent of Congress in allowing venue against the federal government where "the plaintiff" resides to apply only where all such plaintiffs reside, not merely where any one of them does. The House had indeed proposed the latter meaning, but the Senate rejected it precisely on the ground that it expanded venue too far, using the "the [party]" language that SCOTUS had already indicated would be interpreted to mean all such parties in venue and jurisdictional statutes. The House acceded to this change. The lower courts, however, have thus far been reading the provision as if the rejected House proposal had passed.
Returning to the original intent of that forum provision would still allow what the OP calls non-party injunctions, as venue would always be proper in DC and would occasionally be appropriate in other districts with some particular connection to the facts so that the cause of action could be said to have arisen there. This would still allow for non-party nationwide injunctions but would cut back on the unseemly forum shopping (which in turn fuels the shadow docket as too many cases come up from outlier districts and circuits and require correction).
I suppose that attorneys willing not to pile on out-of-district carpet-bagging plaintiffs could still choose an outlier forum, but even then the reduced number and geographical breadth of plaintiffs and perhaps the changed norm of enforcing the venue restriction more generally would argue against using such a case as the lead for establishing a nationwide rule.
Continuing that thread, there was a court order a few years ago that forced patent case assignments in TX to be randomly assigned within a pool that crossed different judicial districts i.e., the plaintiff theoretically might have to drive 750 miles to their hearing.
If mere private patent cases are important enough for such treatment, the constitutionality of a federal law/EO certainly merits it too.
Since the plaintiffs in many of the non-practicing-entity patent cases were traveling to the Eastern District of Texas (running mostly along the Texas-Louisiana border) from the West coast anyway, broadening the venue to 750 miles often made the trip shorter.
If a national injunction is sought, how about a national lottery as to which judge gets to hear the case. So it's heard in Bangor, ME -- whatever -- Bangor has an airport. My guess is that Guam does too.
There might be some advantages to centralizing most such litigation in DC. First, there are some issues that recur across a wide range of litigation, issues of administrative law or separation of powers, for example. It might be helpful to develop a court specializing in that (which DC to some extent already does).
Second, if such nationwide litigation were centralized there, Congress could pay more attention to making sure that appointees to that court were superb lawyers. Granted, Congress should do that throughout the country, but it's just harder to do that at scale. Plus, DC not being a state, senatorial privileges and other local considerations could be less troublesome.
This is a pure policy argument.
The question is CAN courts issue injunctions that provide relief to non-parties? Unlike the SG, I don't see any Article III issue--the government is a party to the dispute, so there's clearly personal jurisdiction. I think it's pretty clear, however, that Rule 23 necessarily precludes these injunctions outside of class proceedings. We already have a meticulously designed procedure in place to allow district courts to provide this kind of relief, and Rule 23 explicitly includes injunctions. There would be literally zero point to an injunctive class if nationwide injunctions were a thing. Trying to file one would actually be malpractice because you would be risking an adverse decision that binds class members, whereas if you're just going for a nationwide injunction, then losing has no consequences, and you can just keep trying until you get a win.
I do think that things are very different when we get to the circuit courts. Once you have an appellate decision on point, that's binding precedent in the jurisdiction, unlike district court decisions, which have no precedential value even 10 feet down the hall. It's outrageous that the government has an (admittedly longstanding policy) of selectively disregarding circuit precedent because the binding interpretation of the law hasn't yet been embodied in an injunction. It's particularly bad when the government makes a strategic decision not to seek cert. If the government loses a constitutional case and doesn't seek cert, it should follow the lower court precedent.
To your second point, keep in mind the hypo. The government has tried to implement a "can we stop Hitler" type of policy, has lost 10 feet down the hall once or several times, and has shown that it is not serious about its policy because it continues to fail to appeal losing decisions.
Fairly soon, that should start being Rule 11 sanctions land.
This is a pure policy argument.
Yes, I noticed that too. It's one of those "to save the law, the judges must torture the hell out of it, so as to arrive at the right answer" arguments.
That judges should be dispensing justice, or the public good, or somesuch formulation is certainly a view, though not one that I share. But even if you hold this view - and many "liberals" do - it cannot possibly be appealed to under the slogan "the rule of law."
Is the problem district judges issuing nationwide injunctions or that plaintiffs can judge shop. Perhaps what is needed are rules that prohibit plaintiffs from going to a specific district or judge when they are looking for a nationwide injunction. Perhaps request for large scale injunctions should be assigned randomly to judges on a district level.
I've suggested this before: in cases that credibly&actually warrant a nationwide injunction, the injunction determination gets assigned to a 3-judge panel (to avoid the "single judge who thinks he's god" problem) that is randomly selected from the pool of all district court judges in the country (to avoid the forum shopping issue).
Many of these cases are incredibly time sensitive. You want to assemble a three-judge panel on (e.g.) the Friday night of Easter weekend?
This concern seems legit but not insoluble.
I’d be happy with “one judge can order a short duration TRO, while referring it to the random 3 judges on a couple-of-days timeline”
And note that the needed relief on Friday of Easter weekend was not national in scope.
I think we can reasonably be concerned about the abuse of national injunctions. It's a broad tool, especially for a single judge.
This doesn't erase its necessity in certain instances. Some commentators, including during the interesting live blog of the oral argument at Scotusblog (Will Baude took part), flagged a possibility of the justices allowing them in certain cases, for instance.
(There was the now favorite metaphor of "buckets" where they would be allowed or not allowed, as it might be.)
There should also be careful appellate review so that one judge or even two judges (a majority of a single appellate panel) does not have too much power. Congressional legislation can also be a helpful clarification -- this should be (should be) something that is a concern for both parties. I know, I know.
Anyway, like Kavanaugh's plea in Friday's opinion, ultimately, SCOTUS should decide the merits of this issue. The "Hitler" example seems like a special case that warrants firm SCOTUS review. And, the birthright citizenship argument as well as the Alien Enemies Act argument is so shoddy that the answer is very clear.
Solution:
When a plaintiff is seeking a national injunction, the case gets randomly assigned to a three judge panel. If two of them agree a national injunction would be warranted, that panel hears the case as if they were a district judge. If not, then the case gets filed in the appropriate district as normal. Any one of the three judges can grant a TRO if the harm from lack of an TRO is immediate, but it only lasts until the all three judges hear the case, the other two over rule the singe judge, or it gets sent back to be fined normally.
Stipulating that we are discussing a proposed statutory change rather than the judiciary merely hunting for truffles in their own rear ends, I have a modest amount of sympathy with your view.
But I think you are letting Trump fever affect your judgement a bit.
Since, I assume, it is not controversial that a national injunction should be an exceptional measure, your 2-1 majority seems not a great deal better than a single judge.
By the law of averages you’re going to get a 2-1 majority which is on the same side as the plaintiff’s carefully venue shopped single judge, roughly half the time. And then if you’re unlucky with the 3 judge court you draw, you - or someone else with the same grievance as you - can have another go next week. Won’t take long to get a friendly panel,
Requiring unanimity from your panel would reduce the odds of getting a winning panel to about 1 in 8, or to put it another way, it will usually mean that one judge is not your natural supporter. Hence you’re going to need the sort of case that deserves an exceptional measure.
And once someone has had a try at a national injunction on Subject X maybe that should be it. Otherwise you just keep on pulling the lever till you get three lemons.
Each Congress can only impeach the President ONCE Apply a time limit, i.e. until the next Congress.
That's completely and utterly moronic.
Issue preclusion, sure (analogize to double jeopardy, though it's not a great analogy). Absolute immunity from the most significant check on the Exec branch for future crimes is a no good, terrible, very bad idea.
If the Senate acquits an impeached president in the first month of his term on a technical emoluments issue, that should not be a get-out-of-jail-free card for him to shoot people on 5th Avenue for 23 more months. Maybe the rest of his presidency if he times it correctly!
I don't care what party is in power, that's the worst idea you've suggested in [checks watch] ... hm, at least 12 hours.
Further complaints directed at Subject X could go to the same 3 judges to avoid the “many bites at the apple” problem.
This looks like the United States meeting its flawed administrative law (and administrative justice) system, as well as its (non-flawed, in my view) system of deconcentrated judicial review (as opposed to European/Kelsenian concentrated systems). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I take issue with the inherent logic of the author’s position. If the gov loses every case and chooses not to appeal, then justice is being done every single time. As a practicing trial attorney, few things would make me happier than learning that my opponent’s legal theories fail always and everywhere. Under such circumstances, there would be a variety of remedies available to address the government’s attempts. Further, such a scenario is incredibly unlikely, as there will invariably be splits between courts. In sum, the scenario presented by the author is amazingly unlikely to ever occur, but even if it does, COURTS OTHER THAN THE SUPREME COURT would be able to address what amounts to abusive, meritless litigation. So, sure, the Supreme Court won’t be able to hear it, nor would they need to. Complete consensus by all lower courts would generally be a good problem to have.
This won’t help your client if he’s in a foreign prison.
The constitution largely requires all three branches to be acting within normal parameters.
If the counterpart to executive orders that bypass Congress (or even the regulatory process) is a national injunction, it’s hard for me to lose sleep.
Bubba, Impeachment is the intended solution.
If the gov loses every case and chooses not to appeal, then justice is being done every single time. As a practicing trial attorney,...
So require hundreds of thousands of people, all being targeted for the same illegal action by the same set of government officials, to individually go through arrest, pre-trial detention, and oh yeah, pay $10,000 or so to a practicing trial attorney, over and over again, indefinitely? That's what you call justice every single time?
I can see why a practicing trial attorney might think that. The rest of us understand that the government often uses the process as the punishment.
That's just the common law system in action; we develop the law case-by-case. It's 'who we are.'
Now, at some point, the common law will crystalize enough that you can have Rule 11 sanctions or a Section 1983 case for damages. But we're nowhere near there given the small number of cases actually dealing with this clause.
Ducksalad, now reverse it. Millions of people, who have had due process, and been adjudicated by immigration courts to be removable, cannot be removed by the government, and in this case it is the government (and the rest of us) being punished by the process.
I don't find any of these examples compelling:
The illegally terminated government employees go to the Merit Systems Protection Board. I, an ordinary citizen and taxpayer, have no right to Jews in the State Department. Nor do I have a right to a DEI-free FAA, even though I want one. The individuals allegedly discriminated against by the FAA are prosecuting a suit on their own behalf.
The remedy in the Christian currency case depends on what the injury is seen to be. Personally, I don't like "offended observer" standing. I would say the most our hypothetical plaintiff is entitled to is an order that the government not let any religious stuff get into his hands. It's up to the executive, in its discretion, to decide if there is an alternative to not printing the bills at all.
Law enforcement exceeding legal or constitutional bounds is common and is conventionally litigated one incident at a time. The courts, in scaling back Bivens, have already ruled that constitutional violations by law enforcement officials are no big deal.
That's right, his examples are silly and pointless. Does anyone really want some federal district judge deciding what is printed on the money? We already have a federal government with racial hiring preferences, and no judge has stopped it.
How would an injunction against currency work in a single district?
Ask Post. It is his idea.
"The illegally terminated government employees go to the Merit Systems Protection Board."
Hey, that's a thing that used to exist.
Now do Kagan's gun example.
Sotomayor's.
Counterpoint:
For the first nearly 200 years of our nation's existence, we survived just fine without nationwide injunctions, especially at the District Court level. The courts acted just fine as a check on the executive branch. It was only in the late 1960's they appeared to start, and very infrequently, and typically at the circuit court level or above.
Only recently have they become increasingly common, and being used by district courts to, in essence, decide political policy on a national level.
Post may be in favor of this concept now, as selected district judges are using their power to determine policy on a national level. But will he feel the same in 4 or 8 years, when newly appointed district judges thwart any and all policies that a liberal Democrat may put in place, with a nationwide injunction?
For the first nearly 200 years of our nation's existence, we survived just fine without nationwide injunctions, especially at the District Court level. The courts acted just fine as a check on the executive branch.
Oh really? You mean there were no problems that could have been solved with a nationwide injunction? Essentially you are doing nothing here except saying you dislike nationwide injunctions.
OK. But that's no argument.
Mr Post argues "I regard this as a fatal objection to a rule prohibiting non-party injunctions in all cases."
A "fatal objection". That someone, in the first nearly 200-odd years of the nation's existence...didn't occur.
Now, just because a option "can" potentially be beneficial, doesn't mean it's "always" beneficial. Judges are just as prone to error as any individual. This is why we have a panel of judges, as opposed to an individual judge on the circuit and Supreme. This is why we have a Congress, as opposed to a dictator. And even herein, we can have lapses in judgement (i.e. Plessy)
The Nationwide injunction allows 600+ individuals to be individual dictators. Making policy on a nationwide basis. It maginfies potential errors
This seems to me a situation where SCOTUS is hoist on its own petard through the practice of refusing standing to groups and organizations that have tried to bring more general cases that question higher level government actions. While this avoided having to deal with controversial cases, it kicked the can down to lower level judges to try and produce general remedies extrapolated from individual cases. It would be far better for SCOTUS to accept that it will have to hear cases where groups and organizations, though not directly affected by a government action, bring forward a constitutional challenge. No more dodging and weaving as it has done on so many issues from gun rights to school choice.
That's really the crux of the whole debate. The traditional role of a court is when you or I have a problem we go get relief through a neutral judge who fairly applies the law. At the end of the day, if we are right, the judge gives us the relief we seek.
The leftist modern view of courts is that they are to be instruments of social change. I shouldn't just want a same sex marriage, but I want every person who chooses one IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY to get one. And the courts should give me a forum to litigate other people's rights.
Such a view invites lawsuits and strife and does not keep judges in their proper lane by ruling on particular cases and controversies. As long as I get compensated for my car wreck injuries, I have no part to play in whether the guy down the street gets compensated for his. That is simply being an intrusive busybody.
Like they used to say, if you want social change, run for Congress or your state legislature. Don't file suits that have nothing to do with you.
That's right. The Warren Court popularized the idea that courts were to force social change. The belief has been declining.
Anyone else shocked that Schlafly's still Big Mad about school desegregation?
You'd be angry too if not only were your lawn jockeys constantly vandalized but the government was bussing the vandals into your neighborhood.
Most people disagreed with forced racial school busing.
So what?
Ask Nieporent. He brought it up.
Obergefell filed a suit on his own behalf. Of course when SCOTUS ruled in his favor, that established a nationwide rule. Perhaps you don't like the ruling on the merits, but I doubt you have an issue with the fact it applied across the nation.
that was its main defect !!!
We used to have it so one state did not have to recognize a gay 'mrraige" and that was correct.
Now we have perversion as a religion
Writing for himself and Alito, Thomas said that the court's decision "enables courts and governments to brand religious adherents who believe that marriage is between one man and one woman as bigots, making their religious liberty concerns that much easier to dismiss.
Thomas said that the court's decision "enables courts and governments to brand religious adherents who believe that marriage is between one man and one woman as bigots, making their religious liberty concerns that much easier to dismiss.
Which is completely foolish. Obergfell did not change anyone's mind as to whether opposing gay marriage is bigotry. Do you, or Thomas, think that some judge somewhere decided, the day after Obergfell,
that some litigant was a bigot because he opposed gay marriage, and therefore ruled for the other guy?
Nonsense.
Well, since you ask, yes I do think that.
No doubt plenty of judges already thought that opposing gay marriage made you a bigot, so no change of mind was necessary, but once Obergefell was handed down, it could be used - say - for putting a thumb on the scales in child custody disputes.
As it happens I am visiting the former colonial power at the moment, where the local Supreme Court recently handed down a decision that - for the purposes of the "Equality Act" - which appears to be some kind of big deal equality statute hereabouts - "transwomen are not women" or if you prefer "man" and "male" and "woman" and "female" refer to sex.
It's purely a statutory interpretation decision, not relying on either biology or social mores, but it's astonishing - to me at least - how suddenly the wind seems to have changed. Not long ago people who wrote "transwomen are not women" on social media pages could expect a visit from the British police in re "hate crimes." But now pretty much everyone - in print and in real life - seems to be willing to say "the whole thing was nutso from day one."
Indicating that a dry legal decision can uncork the social mores bottle. Revealing what was always there, but was kept suppressed.
This is a lot of words for hoping that a populist version of legal realism rules the day, AND that the populist winds change as well.
Seems quite a set of hills to climb.
I for one hope you never get satisfaction in your hostility for one of the legit things that makes America exceptional.
In his case, the merits meant whether federal law required Ohio to list him on his boyfriend's death certificate.
Of course not. A ruling for Obergefell gives him the relief sought. Since it was handed down by the Supreme Court and the rationale of the case was such that no other official could plausibly argue that he was different than the government officials in Obergefell, then it is a natural benefit to other persons seeking a same sex marriage that they can point to Obergefell as binding precedent coming from the highest court in the land.
The question here is whether a single district court judge can do this on a basis which is short in timeline and binds the whole country. I am not arguing with the precedential force of law. Nationwide injunctions completely flip the way the law is supposed to work.
There wasn't a nationwide injunction issued in any of the district court decisions that favored the plaintiffs in the marriage cases. And yet, you pointed to these cases as showing they didn't "just want a same sex marriage, but [...] want[ed] every person who chooses one IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY to get one."
Obergefell did not even want a same-sex marriage for himself. He was just a contrived test case.
Obergefell married his husband in Maryland because Ohio (where they lived) would not do so. After his husband was diagnosed with ALS, Ohio informed Obergefell he would not be listed as the spouse on the death certificate. Obergefell sued (his husband died before SCOTUS decided the case).
I guess you are agreeing with me. He won the right to be listed on a death certificate.
No, the case was not contrived.
"Obergefell did not even want a same-sex marriage for himself. He was just a contrived test case."
Is that as true as everything else you have said, Roger?
That is what the decision says.
What word or group of words in the SCOTUS decision indicates that "Obergefell did not even want a same-sex marriage for himself. He was just a contrived test case"?
To the contrary, the SCOTUS opinion recites:
576 U.S. at 658.
Roger S, you are a liar and the truth ain't in you.
The decision plainly says that Arthur was dead.
You claimed that James Obergefell "did not even want a same-sex marriage for himself." The fact that he and John Arthur in fact did marry one another in Maryland before Mr. Arthur died contradicts that.
This was no "contrived test case."
Obergefell did not even want a same-sex marriage for himself.
What arrant bullshit. Obergefell didn't seek a same-sex marriage in Ohio, his state of residence, because he and his husband were already married in Maryland. He sued Ohio for refusing to recognize the marriage.
And oh by the way maybe another reason he didn't try to marry his husband in Ohio is that by the time he filed suit his husband was dead. I know, hard to believe the f-word wasn't a necrophiliac too, right?
That's right, Obergefell did not want to marry a dead man. His complaint was about the death certificate.
Mr. Obergefell did not marry a dead man, silly. He married Mr. Arthur -- who then was still living -- in Maryland.
I was commenting on the court case.
"Obergefell filed a suit on his own behalf. Of course when SCOTUS ruled in his favor, that established a nationwide rule. Perhaps you don't like the ruling on the merits, but I doubt you have an issue with the fact it applied across the nation."
Actually lower federal courts had been considering marriage equality cases for some time prior to the Obergefell litigation, with nearly all courts ruling in favor of the plaintiffs challenging various state laws. SCOTUS did not grant certiorari until the Sixth Circuit, contrary to all other circuits, upheld state statutes prohibiting same sex marriage in Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio and Tennessee, DeBoer v. Snyder, 772 F.3d 388 (6th Cir. 2014), thereby creating a circuit split.
Would you have a problem with requiring every single person in New York who wants to own a handgun to hire an attorney, file a lawsuit, and wait five years for their case to make it to trial?
You seem to be saying the only way out of that is to win control of the NY legislature. Which is not much different than saying the 2nd Amendment isn't binding on them at all, as long as they're willing to concede to any individual who waits five years and is willing to pay an attorney about what it costs to buy a car.
That's pretty much what NY is doing. They are ignoring Bruen by taking a litigation position that it has given the most stingy relief possible. Once the courts shake that out on then will the average person get relief.
It sucks, but that is how it normally works. I don't get an injunction to carry a handgun in 14 hours from the United States Supreme Court. I'm lucky if they hear it in 14 years.
So your view is that when the Supreme Court decided US v Lopez, Alfonso Lopez should have been able to take his gun into school zones, but everyone else should still be banned from doing so?
Hoist WITH its own petard.
A petard is a bomb, not a flag pole.
Also a colloquial term for a fart, which I think is the usage that originally led to the expression.
There's letters sealed; and my two schoolfellows,
Whom I will trust as I will adders fanged,
They bear the mandate; they must sweep my way
And marshal me to knavery. Let it work,
For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petard; and 't shall go hard
But I will delve one yard below their mines
And blow them at the moon. O, 'tis most sweet
"The phrase's meaning is that a bomb-maker is blown ("hoist", the past tense of "hoise") off the ground by his own bomb ("petard"), and indicates an ironic reversal or poetic justice.[1]"
Wiki
When in one line two crafts directly meet.
— Prince Hamlet, in Hamlet, act 3, scene 4.[8]
I think it comes from Hamlet, where it is definitely used in the bomb sense :
"For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petard; and 't shall go hard
But I will delve one yard below their mines
And blow them at the moon. "
Once your petard explodes, it's going to be hard to tell if you were on it or just with it.
IDK. The cases-and-controversies requirement is an important structural limitation on judicial power. Plus, in practice, it helps prevent sandbagging.
O David, how crazy, The fact it's Kagan should have warned you off that stupid opinion. One Executive but a ton of injunctors, the perfect sniper dodge for illegality. You get him on this , I'll get him on that and we"ll all bring him down. Sotomayor is the dumbest on the bench but Katan is the most out of touch with humanity.
Breathtakingly Stupid Argument From Elena Kagan
Deal W. Hudso
https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/breathtakingly-stupid-argument-from-elena-kagan
First, there are Class Actions. If that is not sufficient, there are doomsday scenarios I am sure we all want to account for (or at least not close the door on a nationwide injunction for now). Can the Court leave the door ajar for such situations using a legal principle such as strict scrutiny to make nationwide injunctions unallowable and even unthinkable except in only the most unusual and threatening of circumstances (such as a situation you mention where the executive is taking (a) clearly unconstitutional action, (b) on an issue of great threat to liberty (eg, deporting people), (c) and is making a clear effort to thwart appellate review). To put teeth into the legal principle as to lower courts and zealous attorneys, it could indicate that a lawyer seeking such relief is opening themselves to a presumptive FRCP 11 sanctiion and bar referral given the absurdly high standard and judges entering such relief are presumptively acting extra-legally and opening themselves to judicial discipline and impeachment. The Court could also indicate a preference towards immediate Supreme Court emergency review when such an injunction is entered. The Court could then make an example of attorneys and judges in future cases. All of which would preserve the nationwide injunction for truly extreme cases you are concerned about, while killing the now almost routine practice of entering such injunctions.
"there are doomsday scenarios"
"where the executive is taking (a) clearly unconstitutional action, (b) on an issue of great threat to liberty (eg, deporting people), (c) and is making a clear effort to thwart appellate review)."
I'm sorry to have to inform you that doomsday is gonna be waaay worse than that.
Which is the point, really. Anything that would really qualify as "doomsday" is not within the courts' power to prevent. It's more of an executive branch thing - invasion of the body snatchers, a hurtling asteroid, a plague of Biblical proportions, civil war etc.
The courts can issue orders but they have no troops or howitzers or even bulldozers. They rely on the executive branch saying "To hear is to obey, O Master, We kowtow to your demands."
Which is not really what doomsday is made of.
These deportation cases are problematic in that class action is not a good fit for habeas. In fact, the govt successfully argued to prevent class certification and promises to continue to oppose class certification in habeas/AEA litigation.
So in a situation where class action has already lost; saying class action is a remedy or solution to the nationwide injunction problem is not answering the problem for this class of cases. The govt controls the venue by quickly shipping detainees to far flung detention centers and habeas has to be brought in the jurisdiction of confinement...the govt opposes class action habeas...the govt loses individual cases and then doesn't appeal. The govt is behaving badly and are not good faith actors. They are gaming the system and doing so to deprive people of due process..a core constitutional principle.
For those of you claiming the courts are overreaching with nationwide injunctions, did you have the same reaction to this?
https://missouriindependent.com/2022/11/14/six-gop-led-states-win-national-injunction-against-biden-student-debt-relief-plan/
The lower court did not apply the injunction to the six states suing, it applied a nationwide injunction, thwarting the will of the majority represented by the votes of the American electorate for Joseph R. Biden.
Somehow, the voices screaming now were silent then. Surprise, surprise.
Standing was based on financial harm to Missouri. Was there a narrower way to avoid that harm?
So, your position is that Biden's Student Debt Relief Executive Order would be overturned only in Missouri? Always good to know someone's true views.
I think Roger's point was that someone could abuse the student loan system to Missouri's detriment, and then move out of state.
It's just that he failed to consider that his argument applies equally well to immigration cases where states are opposing the feds.
Missouri taxpayers were being asked to pay for student loans in other states, without Congress having authorized the money. I think that was the basis for the lawsuit. Correct me if I am wrong.
You're wrong.
In the current birthright citizenship cases there are states claiming financial harm if they lose the future revenue they could potentially gather from birthright citizens. They could very easily (if they haven't already) point out that they also lose revenue from someone who would have later moved into their state after getting birthright citizenship in another state.
Therefore, according to your logic, national injunction?
I guess you are making an argument that each state should be able to have its own policy about who is a citizen, contrary to national policy. And you want local judges to be able to order that somehow.
No. He is arguing (actually New Jersey is arguing as they did in oral argument yesterday) that without a nationwide injunction New Jersey cannot get complete relief (in contrast, individual plaintiffs can get complete relief without a nationwide injunction).
FWIW, this is basically the argument that New Jersey was making in the this case.
So seems like you agree that at least in some cases nationwide injunctions are appropriate and the debate is just about which ones are okay?
Maybe we are looking at the problem (I don't think there is a problem) the wrong way. Is the process itself a problem, or the people executing the process the problem? I argue the latter, and there is a separate process to deal with that.
In the end, I want a Fed Dist Ct judge to have the ability to issue a nationwide injunction. It should be exceptionally rare. Unfortunately, it is not currently, and that is a problem. Regardless, I believe the fed dist ct judge should have that authority. They are, after all, confirmed by the Senate.
Judges have a written code of conduct by which they operate. To rein in judicial misbehavior, file complaints against them under that code. And enforce it. That is how you're supposed to deal with judges that abuse their judicial authority. I bet it is a public record, too, that a complaint was lodged. If not, it should be.
If Norman Eisen can do it, so can others.
The Canons of Judicial Conduct are not guidelines for a judge in ruling the merits of litigation. Judicial disciplinary proceedings do not typically delve into the merits of a court's rulings.
What Canon(s) do you posit are potentially implicated by a federal judge deciding whether or not to issue a nationwide injunction, XY?
"an order placing the words Christ is our Savior' on one-dollar bills;"
Or worse, "In God We Trust".
Yes, some people think that is unconstitutional. It is not up to one local federal judge to decide.
Litigation needs to begin somewhere, Roger. Appellate courts are courts of review, not of first view.
Constitutional issues are not decided in a vacuum. A trier of fact must consider the facts presented in a particular lawsuit and apply the applicable law thereto. For example, in Lambeth v. Board of Commissioners of Davidson County, 321 F.Supp.2d 688 (M.D. N.C. 2004), the Plaintiffs, two attorneys who live and practice law in Davidson County, North Carolina, filed an action claiming that the inscription "In God We Trust" appearing on the Davidson County Governmental Center violates the Establishment Clause. The Defendant Board, having approved the installation of the display, disputed the Plaintiffs' claim and moved to dismiss. Id., at 690. The District Court was required to analyze the factual averments of the Plaintiffs' First Amended Complaint in order to determine whether they had standing to sue and, if so, whether their pleadings stated a claim upon which relief could be granted. Both issues required detailed factual and legal analysis.
The District Court wrote a detailed memorandum opinion which concluded that the Plaintiffs had sufficiently alleged standing to litigate the issue, but concluded on the merits that, under the then-prevailing three part test of Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), the factual averments of the pleadings did not make out an establishment clause violation. On de novo review, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the District Court's ruling. 407 F.3d 266 (4th Cir 2005).
In Lemon, the Supreme Court considered a state statute benefitting parochial school teachers, and assessed the constitutionality of the statute by examining whether it satisfied three conditions: first, whether there was a secular purpose behind the statute; second, whether the statute's principal or primary effect was one that neither advanced nor inhibited religion; and third, whether the statute fostered an "excessive government entanglement with religion." 403 U.S. at 612-13. As the Fourt Circuit opined in Lambeth, 407 F.3d at 269, to pass muster under the Establishment Clause, a challenged government action must satisfy each of the Lemon test's three criteria.
Both courts in Lambeth examined the Plaintiffs' pleadings to see whether they had satisfied any prong of the Lemon test. This was very much a fact-specific inquiry, which is, in the first instance, indeed "up to one local federal judge to decide" -- no matter how much Roger S stamps his feet and wails.
Strange example. The Lemon Test has been abandoned as unworkable.
"Strange example. The Lemon Test has been abandoned as unworkable."
That has exactly nothing to do with the federal courts' opinions in Lambeth. My example is not strange at all. At that time Establishment Clause claims were governed by the three part test of Lemon v. Kurtzman. Your claim upthread is that "It is not up to one local federal judge to decide" whether placement of "In God we trust" on currency is or is not constitutional.
My point is that such determination must be made in the context of specific facts developed before a United States District Court. Unlike Athena, the facts in a lawsuit do not spring forth full grown and fully armored from the head of Zeus. In Lambeth the pleadings sufficed. In other cases further development of an evidentiary record is needed.
So some single local federal judge is going to decide the facts concerning "in God We Trust"? What's he going to do, make his own determination whether God is trustworthy? You just illustrate the craziness of letting judges have such power.
The question was not whether God is trustworthy. The question was whether the inscription on the currency amounts to a prohibited establishment of religion by the federal government.
Litigation of that question requires a plaintiff with standing to litigate, plus facts showing that the Establishment Clause has been violated. The determination of both such questions in the first instance is for a United States District Court, subject to appellate review by higher courts.
It literally is.
It’s been said many times, but it’s a useful heuristic:
When Kagan and Roberts are on the same side, that is the correct position.
When Kagan and Roberts are on opposite sides, whichever side Alito is not on is the correct position.
Is there anything additional for cases where Alito recuses himself?
Kagan is a reform Jewish lesbian. That alone should discredit anything she has to say.
That nugget came to us from loki, who we have not heard from in quite a while. I suspect he gave up on the blog because of all the trolls.
I imagine he’s still lurking around somewhere but yes, you are right, that was probably where I heard it first.
https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/17/politics/device-allows-rifles-fire-quicker
I'm loving the whining from the Jewish and black led gun control groups in New York, Chicago and San Francisco and leave real Americans alone.
Fuck these people. Let them have a barbecue and sing kumbaya while eating a fusion meal of stuffed cabbage and watermelon.
The judiciary's genuine power, the thing which allows it to balance out the other branches, is being replaced with an ersatz power based on politics. But if the courts become that which they are supposed to constrain, they've lost their purpose in our system.
Politics reduces everything it touches to ashes -- except itself.
The courts only have the power the people are willing to give them. White Protestants from the heartland are tired of being ruled over by Jews on Wall Street and in the judiciary.
So-called national injunctions are not the issue. Affecting the rights of non-party litigants is. Rule 23 was created for that situation, but it can be a double-edged sword. Failure to opt out means the judgment of the district court, whatever it is, is binding in all similarly situated potential plaintiffs. These cases are attempts to bypass Rule 23, which as far as I know is the only Congressionally approved way to adjudicate the rights of non-parties.
"These cases are attempts to bypass Rule 23, which as far as I know is the only Congressionally approved way to adjudicate the rights of non-parties."
I don't think so. Fed.R.Civ.P. 65(d)(2) provides that anjunction or restraining order:
Fed.R.Civ.P. 71 states:
Neither Rule cross-references Rule 23.
I don't think either rule means what you think they do. If they did, all injunctions against the government (or anyone else for that matter) would be nationwide injunctions, enforceable by anyone similarly situated. That would make rule 23 superfluous.
The thing is, "non party" litigants may not have even asked to be included. In fact they may actively want NOT to be. But is there any mechanism for capturing those wishes? Does the court seek out the public to find out what they want? No. That tells you the entire idea is wrong headed. It's an exercise of politics by the legal process, not adjudication of complaints between parties.
Agree. But it is dealt with by Rule 23, which require an opt-out option for persons in the putative class (or in some situations, an opt-in).
What I’m grateful for about this case is it shows a certain amount of legal ineptitude, and considerably less finesse at cracking constitutional civil liberties guarantees than Hitler had.
If I had been the administration’s legal strategist, I would have picked a case where the lower courts were close to evenly split and the issue was far more innocuous - one that didn’t involve individual civil liberties, one where the argument about letting difficult cases perculate through the lower courts before deciding for the entire country might seem highly reasonable - to make this argument about the scope of injunctions. And I would have the precedent in hand before springing the trap on a case involving civil liberties. And I would have been sure to appeal the merits of the innocuous test case. Indeed, my brief would have focused on the merits, burying the universal injunction argument as an incidental appeal issue so that hopefully wouldn’t get a majority of the Supreme Court’s attention and thought on the case as a whole. I would have picked a case where the merits were not oy non-obvious but the dispite was INTERESTING, where the Court was sure to split and the justices would have to argue and discuss them, to increase my chances of minimizing the amount of thought given the possible consequences of the universal injuction issue in the hopes the possibility of what was being planned would never occur to them - which was exactly the vulnerability in Hitler’s opponents that Hitler so ably exploited.
Hitler was a genius in the early months when he still had to convince others to achieve power at concealing his motives and appearing innocuous, donning sheep’s clothing when appropriate. He made Germany’s conventional politicians think he would be easy to control. He promised he would protect civil liberties. Etc. He took full advantage of and fully exploited his victims’ inability to conceive of who he was or what he was planning to do.
But not here. This wolf appears as a wolf. And for that I am truly grateful. I am grateful for their ineptitude at disguising themselves. By picking a case where their intentions are obvious, which involves core civil liberties and where precedent is clear-cut, and by appealing only the injunction issue, they make it absolutely clear they are seeking a strategy that will in fact leave the courts legally powerless to have more than a very minor effect on wholesale Executive violations of core civil rights. And they make it clear they are doing this BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEY INTEND. Their test case is simply too close to something a Hitler would do.
If they had appeared in sheep’s clothing, they might possibly have been able to pull the wool over the Justices’ eyes. I am therefore grateful that this time the wolf appeared as a wolf, so there could be no mistake about what the Justices are in fact dealing with. These folks have for the most part been very skilled liars. For once, their usual skills failed them. The country is fortunate to have had that blessing.
I am grateful for a further ineptitude. In this case, they argued that they could disable a Rule 23 class action simply by giving individual relief to the named lead plaintiffs, thereby destroying their standing, rendering them inappropriate class representives, and requiring the class to be dismissed.
I am grateful that they made this argument AT THE SAME TIME as they were arguing in the AARP case that rule 23 class actions represent the sole way of challenging government action on a nationwide basis. In that case, they reserved the right to challenge individual class certifications. When Justice Kavanaugh pressed them on what sorts of challenges they made, they punted and gave a vague answer. Justice Kacanaugh’s concurrence in this case is therefore particularly understandable.
Not only did this wolf appear as a wolf rather than take care to wear sheep’s clothing as Hitler initially did, it actually showed the Justices its fangs. They made what they were up to obvious.
For this, I find myself very grateful.
1) Defendants in putative class actions routinely try to pick off the named plaintiff to thwart class certification. I've never seen the government try to do that before.
2) You understate the perfidiousness of the administration here. It did not give individual relief to the named plaintiffs; it didn't want to make any commitment that might thwart its efforts in the future. So instead it just said, "We have no plans to use the AEA on them at this time. If we change our minds, we'll let the court know."
Are there really only two options here (nationwide injunction vs one limited to the parties involved)? If its a district judge, issue a district-wide injunction; a circuit judge, issue a circuit-wide injunction.
The judge can also issue an order that is stayed, pending appeal. Then the matter is reserved for a higher court.
David, Sotomayor again (like her 100 000 kids on respirators remark during covid) didn't even check the stupidity of her own argument.
At least 3 things
1) not to mention ex-serviceman and others U.S. military a total force of approximately 2.8 million , they will need guns to go get guns !!!
2) and the further stupidity is even worse How many guns are we talking about : Estimated Total: Estimates range from 393 million to 500 million civilian-owned firearms
3) just the very announcement of such a thing would INCREASE the number of guns
THIS WOMAN IS LOCA
WHOOSH!
Let’s look at the logic here. Justice Sotomayor’s argument was that if the government was allowed to do X, it would also be allowed to do Y. Allowing it to do Y would be a problem, so allowing it to do X is also a problem.
SFNP’a objection here is that since SFNP is confident Y can’t happen, he thinks there’s no problem allowing the government to do it. And since there no problem allowing the government to do Y, there can’t be a problem allowing the government to do X either.
Let’s just say that this is less than a convincing argument that Justice Sotomayor is loco.
But more than that, we have it on record that SNFP think it’s completely OK to let the government take your guns. Since he’s convinced it can’t, letting it try is no problem. 2nd Amendment? SFNP doesn’t need no stinking 2nd Amendment.
OK then. Let’s see what happens when SFNP’s certainty that the government can’t do it if allowed to is put to the test.
Nationwide injunctions are patently illegal. A judge only has jurisdiction in his district. A nationwide injunction is like a state making a law for the whole country.
That is not correct. (If it were, then the Trump administration's proposed alternative — a class action — would also not be permissible.)
Our legal system has a structure, why not use it. A District Court judge in a lawsuit that is not a class action should only be able to issue an injunction that applies to the specific parties in that case. If the case is appealed, then the a Circuit Court decision established the binding precedent for that circuit. If a Circuit Court in a different circuit reaches a different opinion, then you have a circuit split and that issue will (if the issue is important enough) be decided by the Supreme Court.
For what it's worth, I once had a recent state level appeals court decision precisely on point that I cited in my brief in an appeal of a conviction in that appeals district. Problem is, a few days after I filed my brief, a DIFFERENT 3 judge panel of that appeals court issued an opinion that directly contradicted the earlier decision. Such fun.
Huhn, at least at the Federal level that's not supposed to happen without the whole circuit sitting en banc.
How "direct" was the contradiction - did they just miss the prior case? Distinguish it? Acknowledge it and say "nope, we're just disagreeing on identical facts"?
How did you handle it in your state court?
Kagan's argument, and the one advanced in this post, is facially appealing but dead wrong. It is an argument from necessity -- we (meaning the judiciary) really need this power, because if we don't bad things will happen. And, of course, the body who decides whether the judiciary has that power is -- wait for it -- the judiciary.
Argument by necessity has a very bad history. Here is a quote from an infamous Supreme Court case:
IMO, that SCOTUS or one justice or one professor thinks a power is necessary is irrelevant. The proper analysis is whether national injunctions by a single district court are consistent with
(1) Article III power
(2) Due process of law
(3) The federal rules of civil procedure, including Rules 23 and 65; and
(4) traditional principles of equity.
If they are, fine, if not, not.
Necessity can be impressed to justify all kinds of abuses, as history shows. It's not a justification for anything.
Korematsu using the word necessity has little to do with the situation here. you are making a magic words argument.
In reality, necessity comes up a lot in jurisprudence. Every prudential doctrine of the Court has been is created by necessity.
'Capable of repetition but evading review' is a prudential doctrine.
the various flavors of abstention are prudential.
It's astonishing to me that "libertarians" here in the comment section are suggesting that unelected district court judges should be given more deference than the elected executive, lol
The executive is indirectly elected; two presidents in the past quarter century who lost the popular vote. Judges are confirmed by the Senate, members of which are elected, so also indirectly elected, and judges have substantial limitations (e.g., to only judge cases and controversies), and can be overruled by higher courts. Higher percentage of criminal presidents in US history than criminal judges, too.
Not nearly as much as it astonishes me that "libertarians" here in the comment section are suggesting that the executive should be able to disregard basic civil liberties guaranteed by the Constitution, and the only recourse is for every single human whose rights are trampled to hire a lawyer and file their own lawsuits about it.
It is also astonishing how Libertarians here favor importing millions of illegal aliens.
You obviously don't understand libertarianism. Then again, you obviously don't understand anything, so I suppose it goes without saying.
For the sake of clarification, libertarians do not favor importing anyone. Or exporting them.
I'm no libertarian, but favoring checks between the branches seems like to be well within their ambit.
Do you consider yourself to be a libertarian? Your posting seems a lot more reactionary than that.
I take it that as you favor "checks between branches" you have no time for the Chief Justice's whining that talk of impeaching judges undermines the independence of the judiciary ?
But rather it is a healthy component of that "checks between branches" business ?
Why? Setting aside what you mean by deference, what do you think this issue has to do with the doctrines of libertarianism one way or the other? And to the extent it does touch on those doctrines, why would libertarians think that a president would be more protective of liberty than the judiciary would be?
I'm sorry I'm late to this party and forgive me if I duplicate a previous comment, but I'm going to paste (some of) a comment I made in response to Prof. Calabresi's post about this issue earlier last week.
The government's position that Article III prevents a *lower* federal court -- i.e., all federal courts but the Supreme Court -- from issuing an order that binds the government even against non-plaintiffs is nonsensical. The Supreme Court is also a creature of Article III. So if this is rooted in Article III then not even the Supreme Court can issue an injunction covering anyone but the named parties.
Yes, the Supreme Court has nationwide jurisdiction, but again, if this is rooted in Article III, that only matters to the extent the named plaintiffs are geographically scattered or they wish to move around the country. The named plaintiffs can now go anywhere in the country without fear of being subject to the unconstitutional policy, but everyone else still has to challenge the policy or join a class action or whatever.
In short, the Supreme Court's nationwide jurisdiction doesn't help if the problem with universal injunctions is a problem of the court's remedy exceeding the scope of the court's Article III jurisdiction. In that case, no one, not even the Supreme Court, could enjoin the government from enforcing the law generally (i.e., against non-plaintiffs). The government's current position is, in my view, an attempt to avoid looking like an attack on the Supreme Court's power, but that's what it is, if taken to it's logical conclusion.
J.M. Cox: "The government's position that Article III prevents a *lower* federal court -- i.e., all federal courts but the Supreme Court -- from issuing an order that binds the government even against non-plaintiffs is nonsensical. The Supreme Court is also a creature of Article III. So if this is rooted in Article III then not even the Supreme Court can issue an injunction covering anyone but the named parties."
You're absolutely correct - it's an important point. I couldn't quite understand, as I was reading through the Administration's filings in this case, why it kept referring to the Supreme Court's authority to issue "nationwide binding precedent," not nationwide binding injunctions. But now I get it. If the Court doesn't see this for what it is - among other things, an attack on its power - we're all in a lot of trouble.
has filed in these cases