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Requiring Fifth-Graders to Read Pro-Gender-Ideology Books to Kindergarten Students (with No Opt Out) May Violate First Amendment
From Judge James Lorenz's order yesterday in S.E. v. Grey (S.D. Cal.):
The school activity at issue occurred in the context of the buddy program, a weekly class pairing younger and older students. The buddy program is a mandatory part of the school curriculum. P.D. and S.E., both fifth graders, were each paired with a kindergartener. In this program, "students in the older classroom mentor students in the younger classroom."
Until the buddy class at issue, the buddy program involved art or garden projects, and any books read in the class were selected by the students. The school sent parents a weekly newsletter listing the books the students were reading each week. For the buddy class at issue, the book entitled My Shadow Is Pink was selected by the teachers and was not listed in the weekly newsletter.
My Shadow Is Pink is about a boy who liked to wear dresses and play with toys associated with girls. Because the boy thought he did not "fit in" with his family and peers, his shadow was pink rather than blue. The story involves a conflict between the boy and his father. The father eventually comes to accept his son's "pink shadow" not as a phase but as reflecting the boy's "inner-most self." Although the term "gender identity" does not appear in the book, the author describes it as a children's book on the subject of gender identity. Defendants admit that the book "does address gender identity."
In preparation for the buddy class, the teacher first read the book to P.D. and S.E.'s fifth grade class. The fifth graders then joined their kindergarten buddies, and the teacher showed a read-along video of the book to the fifth graders sitting next to their respective buddies. The video was followed by an "art activity" in which the teacher asked the kindergarteners to "pick a color that represents you," and instructed the fifth graders to trace their respective buddies' shadows on the ground with colored chalk.
Although the class did not involve an explicit discussion of gender identity, the fact that the book addressed this issue was not lost on the students. S.E. described the book as "about LGBTQ." P.D. described it as "about a boy who wanted to change his gender to be a girl."
Because choosing one's own gender identity is contrary to Plaintiffs' religious beliefs, they were uncomfortable with the buddy class. Moreover, as mentors, P.D. and S.E. did not wish to affirm the book's message to their buddies.
When S.E. and P.D. told their parents about the class, the parents inquired with Defendants why they did not receive notice and an opportunity to opt out, as they did when gender identity was covered in health instruction…. California Education Code Section 51240 … provides in pertinent part:
If any part of a school's instruction in health conflicts with the religious training and beliefs of a parent or guardian of a pupil, the pupil, upon written request of the parent or guardian, shall be excused from the part of the instruction that conflicts with the religious training and beliefs.
… Defendants responded that Plaintiffs had no right to opt out because the buddy class was not part of a "health unit." Furthermore, the teachers suggested that similar buddy activities would be provided in the future without notice and an opportunity to opt out.
S.E.'s and P.D.'s parents sued on their children's behalf. The court held that the program, which was "a mandatory part of the curriculum," likely violated the First Amendment rights of students who didn't want to participate:
The buddy program differs from regular classroom instruction in that the fifth graders mentor their kindergarten buddies. In addition, My Shadow Is Pink buddy class required fifth graders to trace their buddy's shadow on the ground in the buddy's chosen color. P.D. was therefore not merely a passive listener…. P.D.'s tracing of his buddy's shadow on the ground was an expressive act protected by the First Amendment….
In light of P.D.'s role in the class as his buddy's mentor, P.D.'s presence next to his buddy during the read-along video presentation and subsequent tracing of his buddy's shadow in the buddy's chosen color implicitly conveyed P.D.'s endorsement of the message that gender can be a matter of one's choice and subject to change—a message contrary to P.D.'s own beliefs and which he did not wish to convey to his buddy. P.D.'s required participation in the buddy class therefore directly and immediately affected P.D.'s freedom of speech.
"Mandating speech that a speaker would not otherwise make necessarily alters the content of the speech." Laws and regulations which alter content of speech in this manner are content based…. "Content-based regulations are 'presumptively unconstitutional and may be justified only if the government proves that they are narrowly tailored to serve compelling state interests.'"
California Education Code [sections] regarding instructional materials and social sciences instruction … require schools to include the study of the role played and contributions made to California and national development by members of historically marginalized groups, including lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender groups. California law also prohibits excluding educational materials due to covering the marginalized groups, mandates that these groups be accurately reflected in educational materials, and prohibits their adverse portrayal. Defendants argue that My Shadow Is Pink conformed to these requirements. Its inclusion in the buddy program was intended to stress the acceptance of those who are different and reduce the serious effects of discrimination against gender-diverse individuals.
Remedying the effects of past discrimination may serve as a compelling government interest in public education. Nevertheless, "[b]road prophylactic rules in the area of free expression are suspect[,]" and antidiscrimination laws "can sweep too broadly when deployed to compel speech." The First Amendment imposes limitations on the application of such laws, and "demands a more precise level of analysis than the high level of generality" offered by anti-discrimination laws.
The California Education Code provisions cited by Defendants and Defendants' reasons for introducing My Shadow Is Pink to the buddy program reflect an admirable purpose. However, they do not meet the requisite narrow tailoring to justify interference with students' freedom of speech. Laws intended to "eliminat[e] discrimination against LGBTQ individuals" and remedy the serious mental and emotional harm of discrimination are generally insufficient to meet strict scrutiny. Further, Defendants have not shown that compliance with Education Code requirements and legislative purpose cannot be accomplished in ways other than compelled speech. "In the absence of a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons to regulate their speech, students are entitled to freedom of expression of their views."
Based on the foregoing, Plaintiffs have met their burden to show that they are likely to prevail on the merits of their claim that Defendants violated P.D.'s rights under the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment by requiring his participation in My Shadow Is Pink buddy class. In light of this finding, the Court need not review the likelihood of success on the merits of Plaintiffs' remaining claims….
The court therefore granted a preliminary injunction ordering that, as "to the Encinitas Union School District elementary school buddy program," "buddy program class activities and materials shall not cover gender identity topics covered in health instruction, unless Defendants provide parents with advance notice and an opportunity to opt out."
Plaintiffs are represented by Dean Robert Broyles (The National Center for Law & Policy), Kayla A. Toney, Nathan W. Kellum, and Tiffany D. Dunkin (First Liberty Institute), and Robert James Reynolds (Robert J Reynolds, APC).
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"The California Education Code provisions cited by Defendants and Defendants' reasons for introducing My Shadow Is Pink to the buddy program reflect an admirable purpose."
Well, purport to have an admirable purpose, anyway... The fact that they made a point of not informing the parents per prior practice, or permitting opt outs, says something different was going on.
Right. They did this in secret for a reason.
How f'ing gross are Democrat groomers? For real.
I am okay with older kids reading to 4-6 year olds.
However , does anyone think the topic is appropriate for 10year old 5th graders or age appropriate for 4-6 year olds.
Comes across as truly sick and perverted adults instigating the program.
Is it sick, perverted or gross to acknowledge there are people who identify and dress with a gender different than the one they were born with and that those people are people too?
Yes - you are one of the sick perverted ones who fail to admit that it grossly age inappropriate for 4-5 years to be taught the subject - at least at that age.
It’s sick and perverted to teach there are people who identify and dress with a gender different than the one they were born with and that those people are people too?
Is it sick and perverted to teach that there are people who identify and dress with a gender they were born with and those people are people too?
Malika, 5th Graders are the most obnoxious beings on God's Green Earth. I say this as someone who once drove school buses and sometimes had 72 of them sitting behind me.
On one occasion, a 5th grader stuck his head out the window and shouted "Nice Ass" at a female jogger. As there were a few turns where I only cleared telephone poles by a few inches, my concern was more the head out the window, but I digress.
And *as* a 5th grader, I remember playing Scrabble in English class (it *does* build vocabulary) where the informal goal was to use the letters "tit" as many times as possible.
What is the teacher/school going to do when (not if) one of these lovely darlings thinks it cute to start using words like "tranny", "pervert", "freak" and worse? And what if the kindergarten kid *is* a tranny and hence "traumatized"?
The problem with peer instruction is that you don't have control over the peers. And if you attempt to discipline the child after the fact, that can very quickly become an exceedingly expensive SPED (Special Education) matter because all the parent has to do is say "ADHD" and you're going to be hard pressed to prove otherwise as this is a symptom of ADHD, even if it wasn't and the child doesn't have it.
Does it sound like I attended more than a few IEP meetings as a classroom teacher?
I think the whole thing is asinine.
It's not "teaching." It's indoctrination. And exploiting children to promote this sick trans agenda is beyond perverted.
As an adult you can think and act as you please as long as you don't impose your thoughts on unwilling others. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
Grooming has a meaning, and teaching kids LGBT people exist and are fine is not it. You’re thinking more of people like your Mad King’s original AG choice.
Not at that age - Its completely inappropriate.
Why is teaching five year olds that there are people who like people who like people of the same sex as them not appropriate? Is it ok to teach them that many boys like girls?
Malika -
Only a pervert such as yourself would be able to understand why the topic is not age appropriate
typo corrected -
Malika -
Only a pervert such as yourself would NOT be able to understand why the topic is not age appropriate
Ipse Dixie on repeat.
Only a pervert would teach Kindergarten kids ANYTHING about sex.
The President is a rapist who was really good friends with Jeff Epstein.
Just a friendly reminder for the fascist here pretending like they give a shit.
Clinton on the lolita express 20+ times
https://rollcall.com/2016/05/13/report-bill-clinton-flew-on-disgraced-donors-jet-26-times/
You seem to be having trouble explaining it to us perverts.
Here's what I think's perverted:
https://images.app.goo.gl/aKtWfpMYgLCSDBMY6
Maybe a qualified adult can teach such a sensitive subject, but not a 10-year-old child who, even if he wishes to cooperate (not a given), has no intuitive understanding of the subject, or of borders. It is easy to envision a 10-year-old's life ruined because he has been put on a sex-offender registry.
Reading a story isn't teaching a subject.
In school, an authority figure (and, to a 5-year-old, his appointed 10-year-old "buddy" is an authority figure) officially reading to his client invites questions and discussion. Whether or not you call it "teaching," the effects are similar.
While I'm inclined to agree this was not age appropriate, there is a broader issue here. Schools simply cannot accommodate the ideological views of every parent.
There are young earth creationist parents who don't want their kids taught evolution or that the earth is 4 billion years old. There are holocaust deniers whose view of 20th century European history is different from what is typically taught. There are open racists with a far different take on the civil rights movement than what is typically taught. Probably no novel read in English literature doesn't have some detractor for some reason or another. And at some point, parental rights have to give way because the schools simply cannot accommodate everyone.
So where is that line? Does anyone have a principled line to propose for when parents simply must be told that the school teaches what it teaches and that's that?
WNI,
I think that the matter is summed up in the fact that while the content of the "buddy program" was routinely communicated to parents, this activity was keep a secret from the parents.
WNI, why does one have to be 17/18 to view a movie that shows nudity? There is a difference between Darwin and this.
Dr Ed, and Don Nico, you both discussed this specific case without answering my more general question: Is there a principled line for when parental opinion is irrelevant? And if so, where is it? Schools simply cannot accommodate every belief.
So, perhaps the schools shouldn't be accommodating the belief that boys can magically become girls just because they feel like it.
I'm not aware of anyone who takes the position that boys can magically become girls just because they feel like it, but that aside, you're still not responding to my question: Is there a principled line to draw for when parental approval is relevant and when it is not?
WNI,
That's exactly how a male transgenders himself into a female.
By their feelings.
No, that's a caricature. It's like saying that conservatives want children to go hungry and die of preventable disease while working in sweat shops.
It’s funny that so many people think that their side’s mainstream position is a caricature.
No, the left’s position is that anyone who identifies as a girl is a girl, and anyone who disagrees is a bigot.
Right, and conservatives want children to go hungry and die of preventable disease while they're working in sweat shops.
The actual trans position, as I understand it, is different from both what you said and what Scooter said. Whether a person is male, female, both, neither or something else is objective, but it does not always conform to one's anatomy, and in some individuals it may change over time. You're making it sound like it's pure whim, like today I'm in the mood for a cheeseburger and tomorrow I'll want pizza. That's not how it works.
“ You're making it sound like it's pure whim, like today I'm in the mood for a cheeseburger and tomorrow I'll want pizza. That's not how it works.”
What you’re describing is called gender-fluidity, and is part of gender ideology.
Hi, Woman. The discussion of flat earth in astronomy class and of young earth theory in biology will enrich education, covering both sides. You cannot believe your eyes. You have to follow the replicated evidence. Science is just repeatability. The best validation of any idea is predictive validity.
This case is about normalizing and promoting profound, crippling psychopathology. Kids imitate. Now the number declaring themselves as non-binary is exploding, in a contagion effect. It is harmful. Homosexuals also killed 20 million people by their sexual selfishness and by the people catering to them. Fauci refused to quarantine them when there were a few thousand AIDS patients and after the HIV cause was identified. The allies of this group are responsible for the consequences. Lawyers, judges, school board members, and teachers engaging in this harm should just be driven out of town. There is no talking to these threats to our kids. The legal system is worthless and even toxic in this area. Kids have no one to protect them except for their parents. These advocates show our kids no mercy. None should be shown them.
>Kids have no one to protect them except for their parents. These advocates show our kids no mercy. None should be shown them.
And the Democrat judges make sure their parents can't even do that.
"The discussion of flat earth in astronomy class and of young earth theory in biology will enrich education, covering both sides."
Poe's Law?
WNI - dont change the topic
Address whether it is appropriate for 4-6 year olds to be taught this subject
I already said that I'm inclined to think this was not age appropriate. Now, maybe you can answer my question, which is relevant to the topic even if not specific to this case. Or you can cut and run like you typically have in other conversations we've had.
if you agree that it is not age appropriate, then what is your purpose of starting a new argument?
lol, nice one.
Because the broader issue I'm raising is germane to the subject matter. This case is the specific context in which the issue arose this time; next time the same broad issue arises it will be in a different context.
But I'm wasting time talking to you anyway. To recap the last few conversations we've had:
You said on an earlier thread that Planned Parenthood has a bad history; I then asked if that principle would apply to religion, which also has a bad history, You responded that I was what abouting and refused to answer the question. Then, a week or so later, you're on a different thread engaging in what abouting yourself and saying you have contempt for those who are critical of what abouting.
Then, in a different thread, I asked a direct question about whether you would apply the same standard you were then applying to the Democrats to Trump as well. You responded that I have TDS and weren't going to answer my question.
There are people here that I disagree with who nevertheless are honest adversaries. You are not one of them. You're a thoroughly dishonest hypocrite. But prove me wrong; I have now answered your question; let's see if you have a merits answer for mine.
That's no doubt an interesting discussion on its own merits that hopefully we will someday be in a position to have, but at this point I think it just distracts from the core problem exemplified here since the school already had an opt-out in place for this particular (and, let's be fair -- legitimately and broadly controversial) subject matter. The only reason this lawsuit had any reason to exist is because a cadre of activist school employees concocted a too-clever workaround to secretly force all kids to consume it anyway.
With that backdrop, I for one have zero interest in academic discussions over the exact scope of the authority we as parents might be expected to willingly hand over to people who clearly should not be in a position of wielding it.
While that's a fair point, I would make the same response I did to Joe above. The issue I'm raising arose in this specific context this time; next time it will arise in a different context where the answer isn't so cut and dried. So we may as well discuss the broader issue too.
Enjoy, and definitely get back with me when a case with a markedly murkier fact pattern gets this sort of traction.
This one is getting traction because of the strong emotions it raises on both sides. Markedly murkier fact patterns do in fact happen routinely. If they don't interest you, that's fine.
I just really question the competence of teachers and administrators that wreck what, in principle, is probably a good idea, i.e., older kids helping younger kids learn to read.
When I was 19 I used to help my sisters 14yr old friends with their “homework” and everyone thought I was a Perv
Made up wannabe edgelord tries to shock.
Or, maybe this is Trump’s original AG pick?
I should be charging YOU rent,
And speaking of “made up” Personae, aren’t you the Black dude pretending to be a Bee-otch? Does “Queenie” ring a bell?
I’ve never been Queenie. And you’re once again confusing handles with full blown personas. You made up this whole thing about why you write in the weirdo style you do and I caught you in the contradictions in your stories. As your Mad King says: Sad!
I think he genuinely has ADHD -- you can see pieces of it around the edges, stuff he doesn't even realize.
Now you’re making Diagnoses of imaginary diseases on imaginary people? “Dr” ? You should have stuck with mopping floors, and maybe 100% of my stuff isn’t “real”, I’m like an Oliver Stone movie, “any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental” and remember how at the beginning of every episode of “Welcome Back Kotter” he’d tell his wife about one of his eccentric relatives? I heard some of those were made up also, now if you don’t mind, I’ve got an awake Fiberoptic Intubation to do (it’s easier to do them if you’re awake)
Frank
Today I learned that California education law prohibits "adverse portrayal" of historically marginalized groups.
Yes, when the government is speaking, as when delivering instruction, it can engage in viewpoint discrimination. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/government_speech
State education law usually governs private schools as well.
Not curriculum. See FAQ no. 7 here: https://www.cde.ca.gov/sp/ps/psfaq.asp#c7
“If you want to know who rules over you, just look for who you are not allowed to criticize.”
Doesn't matter who said it, it still has an element of truth. Though it would be more accurate to note that you're actually ruled over by whoever is doing the "not allowing", which doesn't have to be the same people.
Doesn’t it prohibit “adverse portrayal” by the teachers? It’s like how Florida and Texas laws prohibit CRT or pro-gay speech if so it seems.
age appropriate
Your argument is shows your pervision to common decency
“Your argument is [sic] shows your pervision [sic] to common decency”
It seems your understanding of analogies is up there with the same for grammar. My point here was both involve instructing what government educators can say or not.
"Today I learned that California education law prohibits "adverse portrayal" of historically marginalized groups."
A gay friend of mine was offended by the California gay history law when it passed because it required gay history be presented "from a positive perspective." His argument was that not all gay history (e.g. the bathhouse era) *was* positive and that it was a mistake to pretend that it was.
California is unique in its education law -- it has more than twice as many laws as any other state, memory is 15 bound 4" volumes. Texas is bad, but California is Texas on steroids...
It’s 2025 Ed, you can just call him your “husband” or “Partner”
"See these books people are trying to ban? Your tax dollars will pay to buy the books and will pay us to make your older kids read them to the youngest kids - and there's nothing you can do about it. We won't even tell you we're doing it."
Or maybe not...
Part of it is accomplishing the indoctrination, of course, but I think a big part of it is just establishing that "and there's nothing you can do about it."
The school wants it to be clear who has the whip hand, and that it's not the parents. To a certain extent, what they use that power to do isn't as important to them as establishing that they, not the parents, are calling the shots.
And that's exactly why whether what they're trying to do is reasonable is really irrelevant.
Do you really think that? Do you know any elementary teachers? The ones I do hardly wake up thinking, “man I can’t wait to show these kid’s parents who is the real boss!”
A much likelier explanation is that this was a naive attempt to teach inclusion that was oblivious to the fact that many might find it offensive. The school deserves to lose and the teachers be disciplined but let’s not jump to paranoid, uncharitable conclusions.
Yeah, but who does this? Why not stick to the basics?
School has always had a strong element of “civics” and how to be a good person, and teaching often attracts a kind of kumbaya kind of person who wants to overreach and save the world. It should be disciplined but I don’t think they’re authoritarian maniacs.
Absolutely should stick to the basics
reading, math and sciences skills and knowledge in the US ranks below most other european countries, and Malika and other woke want to divert eduction to studies that are not age appropriate.
This is totally unresponsive to what I said, which is teaching outside basics is and has long been normal.
Its not age appropriate
Show some maturity.
Show some common decency
Quite exposing your self as a pervert
Why is this book age inappropriate? You just keep restating that.
Malika the Maiz 1 minute ago
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Mute User
Why is this book age inappropriate?
As I and others have stated -
A pervert such as yourself is incapable of understanding why its not age appropriate.
So, you’ve got nothing?
It's weird that you want to remove gender from kids' books.
The Royal Descendant And the Pea
Ramona and One of Their Parents
The Big Cat, the Evil Magician, and the Wardrobe
Seems a bit reactionary, no? Turns out kids have a pretty good understanding of gender out of the gate.
You're on much stronger ground arguing against the content itself. There are vanishingly few actually trans people. If the left are guilty of anything, it's extending this rare condition into a whole theory of generalized gender fluidity. I'm not convinced, and I'm a pro-trans lefty.
It’s a political loser, for sure. Conservatives are great at finding small, politically insignificant minorities to punch down and daring liberals to defend them.
Yes, I have known elementary teachers. News flash: They're human beings, subject to all the weaknesses and faults characteristic of the species.
"A much likelier explanation is that this was a naive attempt to teach inclusion that was oblivious to the fact that many might find it offensive. "
BZZZT! This is in fact an utterly implausible explanation, because they had a policy of telling parents what books were being read to their children, and changed it for this book! So they absolutely, incontrovertibly, knew that some of the parents would find it offensive. And took affirmative steps to keep those parents in the dark about it.
They're human beings, subject to all the weaknesses and faults characteristic of the species.
I don’t think people normally fall into wanting to “be clear who has the whip hand” in their relations with others’ kids…
People also don't normally insist on secretly reading age inappropriate books to others' kids.
This ISN'T normal, which is why it's not happening at every school.
Normal Peoples don't do that because good chance you'll get dead, dead peoples have trouble reproducing, and in a Billion years (if you believe in Evil-lution) there won't be any humans left who like reading dirty books to little kids.
Or if you're a Creationist like me, you don't do it because you enjoy being able to eat with natural teeth.
Frank
That’s a fair point. But it jibes with my view that they were probably trying to “do some good” as much as “showing the whip hand.”
Yeah, I said it was a mix. The problem is, the 'good' they're trying to do IS the indoctrination I was referring to.
They dislike the parents' values, and so they're trying to "do good" by indoctrinating their students in their own values, instead. This is not something parents would typically agree to, hence the secrecy and the refusal to permit any opting out once it was exposed.
They are, in a sense, inverse cuckoos: They compensate for having values that discourage reproduction, by attempting to 'steal' the children produced by conservatives, inculcating them into the left's value system in order that it doesn't naturally die out.
"oblivious to the fact that many might find it offensive"
They were so "oblivious" they failed to list that particular book in the newsletter. Totally a coincidence, not intentional at all.
"was a naive attempt to teach inclusion"
C'mon, it was a purposeful deception of the parents.
Malka, I've taught certification classes. There are some really rabid ideologues going into K-12.
So you're saying you're certifiable?
My memories of Kindergarten are of futilely trying to cut with Righthanded Scissors, and the Southpaw-phobia just got worse from there (what do you mean I can’t play catcher? Or shortstop? Second? Third? Or be a Surgeon? Want to feel some real discrimination? Try being a lefty for a day
Frank
Around the corners...
My memories of Kindergarten
Which of your made up personas?
The left handed one obviously, and I do my most vital Anesthesia procedure, endotracheal intubation with my non dominant Right hand, because even if you could find a Left handed laryngoscope, in training they wouldn’t let you use it (like baseball gloves, you use the laryngoscope in your non dominant hand, unless you’re a lefty, the skilled part is putting the tube in)
Why don’t you just make up a “Right handed” persona? Problem solved.
Same reason you don’t make up a “Straight” one, I’d be “living a lie”
But you’re whole thing is a sad, pathetic, made up “Gonzo” shtick, why not go whole hog?
Cmon man!
“Malika”??
You know you’re just a Black dude named “Jamal” or “Kelvin”
But go ahead, prove me wrong, do something “White” like saying something clever
Frank
I’m not sure if it’s more or less pathetic his commitment to the bit.
What I do know is it’s interesting how such weirdo’s are drawn to Trump.
Whoa! guess that one hit a little too close to home
The poor kids who participate in this are going to grow up and realize that they were made to be complicit in the mutilation of their younger peers.
Did the book deal with mutilation? I didn’t see that in the case.
Mutilation??
Complicit??
Hyperbole much?
"Mandating speech that a speaker would not otherwise make necessarily alters the content of the speech." Laws and regulations which alter content of speech in this manner are content based…. "Content-based regulations are 'presumptively unconstitutional and may be justified only if the government proves that they are narrowly tailored to serve compelling state interests.'"
Is this the correct standard in the context of primary or secondary schools? Schools compel kids to speak on topics and in ways they would never naturally do absent being assigned course work. It's the very nature of school. Surely, the "narrowly tailored" requirement doesn't apply to every specific writing assignment?
I know it’s crazy but couldn’t they have the Kindergarten teachers teach the kids something that might actually be useful?
IKR! Like how to not grow up to be so sad and pathetic you invent a weirdo persona to comment on anonymous websites?
Imagine if they were required to read the Bible, the Quran, or Dianetics to kindergarteners.
There was a case about 10 years ago, maybe a little more, where a class forced kids to recite an Islamic prayer. This was to learn about it, and not practice religion. I had issues with the forced recital, which was not proving you had read or learned it. Imagine if some school forced the recital of the ten commandments, or the Lord's Prayer, or Beatitudes, as education about Christianity. "Here, exercise mouthing their prayers." I suspect the same folk would howl at that.
And they'd be right.
Having said that, this case isn't religion, so there's less issue, though I can see the battles and have noted the rapid, purposeful quantum leap from ongoing discussion and persuasion to claiming the social ostracism of the other side, which seems to be at the quick step, to cow them down, sans minimal effort. Bypass the hard part, persuasion, and rely on tribal critical mass framework to initiate the end game early.
I've pointed out how religion has relied on this for millenia, and now the dusty sandal is on the other foot!
Transgenderism certainly looks more like religion than it does science. And quite regressive at that, suggesting that effeminate boys might actually be girls, and tomboys might actually be boys.
How does promoting equal treatment of transgender and cisgender folks partake of religion? Perhaps by affirming that we are all God's creatures?
The forced recital is objectionable. So here is the secrecy and lack of opportunity for opt out.
LOL!
Not content with fucking up their own kids, libs want to fuck your kids up, too.
This step is crucial for them because they're just not having kids in the numbers they need to perpetuate their bullshit. Hence, open borders and the complete takeover of education. That's why they fight so viciously to maintain their grip on those things.
Look what happens when the border gets locked tight. Blocking ICE facilities. Visiting gang members in other countries. Absolutely imploding now that Trump did the thing that Biden said he couldn't do; control the southern border. And education? Bye bye DOE and hello to school vouchers. They don't know whether to shit or go blind right now so they've decided to do both.
I like a guy who can’t write in paragraphs opining on education policy!
Not to defend his points, but he does have proper, well-designed paragraphs. He just didn't put an extra cariage return between them.
First one: They're fucking up their kids...and yours!
Second: Part of a crucial process to dominate when they don't have the numbers, lists how, then why.
Third: But panic on the blueside! Here is one issue, and their panicked behavior, then a parallel with education.
I think I said “write paragraphs.” You turn that turd into any teacher and they’d correctly savage it.
You actually have no legit point so you have to retreat into petty grammar issues.
Queenie handles lots of Turds, burgles them too
LOL!
That's your criticism, lady?
The points stand, I see.
Thankfully, she can't see the size of my butt.
I should think you don’t know what you’re doing is a criticism you’ve usually heard from ladies…
"lady?"
He used "Queenie" as a blog name but I do not think he is actually a woman.
what was your first clue?
So, to finish, a few points.
1. I don’t think acknowledging gay or trans people exist and can be fine is problematic at any age. People are fine with representations of Snow White and Prince Charming for kids, that’s not “grooming” them to heterosexuality.
2. Not realizing or hiding material that can be objectionable deserves fault and some discipline.
3. This doesn’t support some claim of tyranny, much less a generalized one.
1. Actually, Snow White and Prince Charming ARE 'grooming' children to heterosexuality, if you really want to use a pejorative term. Childhood is a period when you gradually learn to model adult behaviors, and as most adults ARE heterosexual, it is perfectly natural that we acculturate our children to heterosexual behaviors.
2. Just drop that stupid "not realizing" line, already. If they hadn't realized the material was offensive, they would have made no effort to conceal it from the parents. They absolutely knew.
3. The claim of tyranny is perfectly justified by the fact that, when the effort to conceal what they were doing failed, they fell back on prohibiting opting out of the indoctrination.
It doesn't seem like the record supports your claim that the school made an effort to conceal the book. You're basing that mainly on your own assumption of bad faith plus one tiny piece of circumstantial evidence which, on its face, is simply an omission, not an active effort.
But anyway, it hardly matters to anyone who isn't consumed by their own bad-faith attempt to generalize from this incident to a whole theory of tyranny... which is pretty sad-funny.
So all of that aside... this is the interesting part:
Snow White and Prince Charming ARE 'grooming' children to heterosexuality
Ok, I wouldn't call it "grooming" but whatever, at least we all agree on what's going on here. I hope you realize that a heterosexual-only focus is illegal at any age. I'm surprised we haven't already seen a case of gay parents demanding Snow White books be removed on the same grounds as ones with homosexual romances. It would be hard, I think, for a court to allow one but not the other.
I would also like to know what color these kids' buddies actually chose. It seems like if the boys chose blue and the girls chose pink, which they probably did, then no harm no foul.
To suggest that shadows have color requires some suspension of disbelief.
As do stories about talking snakes, a worldwide flood, a fish swallowing a full grown and regurgitating him whole days later, and a harlot in Egypt who doted upon her paramours there, whose members were like those of asses, and whose issue was like that of horses. (Ezekiel 23:19-20 RSV)
"When S.E. and P.D. told their parents about the class, the parents inquired with Defendants why they did not receive notice and an opportunity to opt out, as they did when gender identity was covered in health instruction....
… Defendants responded that Plaintiffs had no right to opt out because the buddy class was not part of a "health unit." Furthermore, the teachers suggested that similar buddy activities would be provided in the future without notice and an opportunity to opt out."
This book was excluded from a prior policy of informing parents. That IS concealment.
"I hope you realize that a heterosexual-only focus is illegal at any age."
I hope people realize that humanity continuing to exist requires more than a little bit of bias in favor of procreation, and this sort of reasoning is part of why birth rates are imploding across the developed world.
Yeah. What you quoted confirms my account. It's not health class. They're not health teachers subject to the health policy. It probably didn't even occur to them. Your hypothesis that the health staff made a secret request of the fifth-grade teachers to sneak in some material in order to get around the opt-out policy is retarded in comparison.
I hope people realize that humanity continuing to exist requires more than a little bit of bias in favor of procreation...
Oh please are you serious. You typed that and pressed
Submit
with a straight face? No one's asking for or expecting equal representation. We don't need half the books to be gay. We just want it to be non-zero. You and your fellow turds are focused on eliminating gay and trans people entirely."Because choosing one's own gender identity is contrary to Plaintiffs' religious beliefs . . . . "
But believing some bearded Sky-Guy chooses each person's gender is much more rational.
GTFO
Nothing is more convincing to believers as dismissing their belief as being from a "bearded Sky-Guy".
Its science that determines the sex of a child, not "identity".
You realize that science recognizes gender dysphoria, right?
You're like the flat earther or intelligent designer appealing to "science" by which they really mean "ignorance."
You've switched from the OP topic of "gender" to "sex." Scientifically, they are not the same thing, though people outside of those fields might use them as synonyms.
Having said that, let's go ahead and discuss sex here. Science doesn't "determine" a person's sex but it can define it. It goes into great detail, in fact, about people who fall outside of the norm and have various conditions that result in everything from normal-appearing genitals for one gender but non-normal chromosomes (XXY, for example) to people with blended sexual characteristics who have some combination of male and female sexual organs.
What sex are these people if science "determines" it and not their own choice or that of their parents?
Don't pretend there is rationality in transgenderist beliefs which have been contagious in some juvenile communities and ruined lives thanks to unethical medical practices which have sterilized individuals and destroyed or mutilated previously healthy tissues/systems. You are welcome to practice abnormal sexuality or make believe as an adult, though I also question surgical participation (akin to lobotomization) in adult mental illness. But don't tell my children to doubt their biological reality because they don't conform to some narrow-minded gender stereotype whether in a temporary phase or not.
... because they don't conform to some narrow-minded gender stereotype whether in a temporary phase or not.
I think this book was doing exactly that -- telling kids it's ok not to conform to some narrow-minded gender stereotype i.e. pink being a girl color. So the boy in the story likes pink, big whoop, am I right?
Let's assume that's the case. Would you still say the book was preaching "abnormal sexuality?"
People are born intersex all the time. Am I understanding you correctly that you are against performing gender reassignment surgery on these children to help them conform to the norm?
The phrasing "choosing one's gender" reflects the most fundamental possible misunderstanding.
To edit Yogi Berra, you can hear a lot just by listening. Listening to trans people, you'll find they're all different, but over and over you'll hear about years-long struggles against their identities.
The picture is, granted, incomplete, but we have fascinating evidence going back to the 90s that we have brain hardware which tells us whether we're male or female, and there's no guarantee that it goes in the same direction as our reproductive machinery.
For those who value fact, here is a curated list of peer-reviewed literature: https://aebrain.blogspot.com/search/label/Brains
No guarantee, no, any more than there's a guarantee you'll be born with two legs and two arms. It's still the way to bet.
The brain is an organ, biological, capable of birth defects, just like any other organ, only when it has birth defects, you end up with distorted thinking, not distorted limbs. It's sad, it's not a moral defect, but it's not normality, either, and we shouldn't pretend it is.
BUT, and this is I think very important, transgenderism did not hugely increase in frequency in the space of a few years naturally. It is, in essence, a sort of fad, children who are going through a very confusing period in their lives being encouraged to go down a rabbit hole of self-delusion instead of getting over it.
Most cases of gender dysphoria resolve by the end of puberty without any medical intervention. "Gender affirming medical intervention actually prevents it from going away, preserves the dysphoria.
We don't treat anorexia with bariatric surgery and diets, we should not treat the few people with persistent gender dysphoria with dysphoria affirming treatment either. And we shouldn't be encouraging the merely temporarily confused to seize on their confusion as their true identity.
It is, in essence, a sort of fad
Brett the neuroscientist.
very much a fad diagnosis
Similar to many of the other mental health diagnosises through the ages that were considered the gold standard of their time
frontal lobotomies,
electric shock treatment
repressed memory,
etc
"very much a fad diagnosis"
The statistical unlikely number of "trans" children among Hollywood actors and other celebs bears this out
Example, actress Cynthia Nixon:
"I am here today as the mother of a proud trans man, as the aunt of a proud trans man. My best friends' kid is trans, and my kid's best friend is trans"
Well Brett, you only have yourself to blame. The only reason it even crossed the mind of this school that it's important to teach tolerance towards trans people is the unbelievably sick rise in intolerance towards them from the right. And no, it was not in response to some spontaneouns pro-trans agenda from the left. It was in response to gays being taken away from you as a politically acceptable punching bag, so you turned to trans people. You're really a pathetic bigot at heart, no matter how much you try to blame other people for your own shortcomings.
Using the term "tolerance " is one of the code terms used to condemn conservatives who are speaking out against the barbaric treatment of individuals suffering from mental illnesses.
Woke leftists have shown themselves to be highly intolerant of those trying to inflict damage on the mentally ill
Back to the topic.
There is not justification for teaching a subject, any subject , that is inappropriate for that child's age.
Gender is an appropriate topic for all ages. Duh.
Do you think if these kids were older but put into the same situation, their First Amendment rights would go away?
You don't even know what you're trying to talk about. You've just got this superficial fantasy grievance to hurl around indiscriminately. I'm happy for you that you found a way to get through life by convincing yourself that all these evil people are out to get you and your kids via picture books. Sounds pretty tragic to me ‐‐ and not far from mental illness -- but I guess it's working for you...?
Anyway, nobody, not even you I hope, is buying your faux sympathy for trans people. If you knew any actual trans people, you'd know how successful these treatments can be. They're no more barbaric than removing an extra finger or toe. They're well-understood (by the people who matter, i.e. scientists and doctors, not your dumb ass) to be the best available treatments. So yes, it is disgustingly intolerant of you to decry these lifesaving treatments as "barbaric" "damage."
Randal 5 minutes ago
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Gender is an appropriate topic for all ages. Duh.
Not in the manner in which it is presented !
Not in the manner leftists want it presented!
- Why do you think the subject was hidden from the parents
Duh!
"And no, it was not in response to some spontaneouns [sic] pro-trans agenda from the left. It was in response to gays being taken away from you as a politically acceptable punching bag, so you turned to trans people. You're really a pathetic bigot at heart, no matter how much you try to blame other people for your own shortcomings."
Right. I have for some time now believed that as more gays and lesbians came out and became more visible, more of their critics realized that their hatemongering was likely to hurt someone dear to them. Overt gay-bashing became less socially acceptable. The hard core haters needed another disfavored group to look down on -- a group that was less numerous, less likely to be "out," and less well organized politically. Transgender folks fit that bill in all respects.
A lot has been learned since 2018, most of which discredits that agenda driven junk science pushing the gender fluid narrative.
"curated list "
No doubt.
From some who invoked "science" just a short distance up-thread, I'd think you'd be less dismissive of peer-reviewed science. As with all science, if you have a similar list of peer-reviewed science that speaks to this topic, please share it.
Trump's 'fuck you that's why' administration has really allowed the right to regress their arguments.
Lots of invocations of normalcy. Or yelling about perversion. Or melodrama about mutilation.
Fewer arguments, more emotionalism.
Is comment intended to be intelligent and rational?
Comments generally are expected to be intelligent and rational, yes. I find Sarcastr0’s to be so. Yours... not so much. He's got you pegged: yelling about perversion, melodrama about mutilation. That's you! (In case you don't get the gist, yelling and melodrama imply a deficiency of intelligence and rationality.)
Normalcy. It's overrated.
We're seeing a resurgence of anti-LGBT government activity recently. In a newer thread on the Florida lewdness law (aimed at LGBT people) we can see another attack. This is the same pattern we saw in Russia, Hungary, and Serbia. Find an easy out-group to demonize as a threat, bravely combat that threat, find another group, rinse and repeat as needed.
Normalcy is meaningless. It's vibes.
Find an easy out-group to demonize as a threat
Ayep. And it's working so well on this group they're not even hiding it anymore.