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Due Process and the Abrego Garcia Case
We knew it was coming, yes?
- A 2019 court order expressly prohibits Abrego Garcia's removal to El Salvador because he faced a "clear probability of future persecution" there and had "demonstrated that El Salvadoran authorities were and would be unable or unwilling to protect him."
- In March, 2025 without any notice or a warrant, ICE agents seized him, placed him on a plane, and transported him to an El Salvadoran prison (the "Center for Terrorism Confinement," (CECOT)).
- Abrego Garcia has not been charged with any crime. No warrants have been issued against him or his property. The government has asserted - in various court papers and, yesterday, at a presidential news conference and a televised meeting in the Oval Office - that he is a member of MS-13, a designated terrorist organization. That may be true; the government, however, has provided no evidence, to a grand jury or to a magistrate or to any third party, that it is true. The President has told us, though, that it is true - but he is, remember, the Chief Prosecutor.
- The US district court in Maryland ordered the government to "facilitate and effectuate" Abrego Garcia's return to the United States, and gave the government a deadline for his return. The 4th Circuit affirmed, and refused to stay the district court's order.
- The Supreme Court affirmed the order last week, with a qualification. The Court declared - with no dissents - that Abrego Garcia's removal was "illegal," that the government "acknowledged" that his removal was illegal, and that the district court's order "remains in effect [and] properly requires the Government to 'facilitate' Abrego Garcia's release from custody in El Salvador and to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador."
- The qualification:
The intended scope of the term "effectuate" in the District Court's order is, however, unclear, and may exceed the District Court's authority. The District Court should clarify its directive, with due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs.
- The district court immediately revised its order, dropping the reference to "effectuating" Abrego Garcia's return. The order now requires the government to submit information regarding
"(1) the current physical location and custodial status of Abrego Garcia;
(2) what steps, if any, Defendants have taken to facilitate Abrego Garcia's immediate return to the United States; and
(3) what additional steps Defendants will take, and when, to facilitate his return."
So here is my question: Under our government's view of the matter, what prevents it from snatching anyone off the street whom they don't particularly care for for one reason or another - me, for instance, since I have been known to describe Our Leader as a jackass [or worse] - and throwing me in the back of a van, sticking me on an airplane and transporting me to a prison in El Salvador?
It is, of course, "illegal," just as the seizure and transport of Abrego Garcia was, as everyone acknowledges, "illegal." It's illegal because I'm entitled to "due process," which includes notice of the charges against me, the opportunity to contest the charges, a warrant executed by a neutral magistrate, etc., and because the government may not punish me for expressing my dismal opinion of Our Leader.
But when my family obtains a court order requiring the government to get me back, the government can throw up its hands and say "Sorry, he's outside of our jurisdiction now; that's up to the Salvadorans"? Really!?
That can't be right - can it? Talk about an end run around the Due Process Clause, the First Amendment, the Right to Counsel, … the whole edifice of Constitutional protections! If the government can just get me out of the country before a court intervenes, they can get rid of me forever.
Is there really anyone out there who is not worried by this? Does anyone out there still not see what is going on? Really?? Do you think you'll be protected because you're an American citizen? What difference does that make? Once you're outside the jurisdiction, you're outside the jurisdiction, and that's the end of it - no?
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If you don't want to accept what the Supreme Court decided here, no one can help you. Not every wrong has a judicial remedy. That's the flaw in your analysis. Your complaint is with Congress which established the immigration law system.
The due process owed an alien is for the protection of citizens. It's a bit of a leap here that the government is uninterested in whether the alien they are trying to deport just doesn't have a valid deportation order against them, to that person is not an alien or not who they think he is.
Slipper slopes for me, but not for thee.
(AFAIK IANAL, there is no "warrant" requirement in immigration proceedings and deportations.)
There’s a large body of case law, some of it reported by me here, on when the government can or cannot deport a noncitizen. Is that all revoked now?
AS I understand it, there is a current deportation order, issued by a court in 2019( which says anywhere but El Salvador) why don't we keep him outside the country and send him to another nearby country?
Need a court order to do that. At least, until 1/20/25 when the rules changed.
No you don't and no it didn't.
You guys are really becoming unhinged because an illegal MS-13 gang member from El Salvador was actually deported to El Salvador. But if Democrats want to make this their campaign issue, go for it. I strongly encourage you to double down on stupid.
The due process owed an alien is for the protection of citizens. I don't think that's correct. Even if you don't buy that the right to due process is a "natural" right in the Jeffersonian sense, I don't think that we grant due process rights to non-citizens in order to protect citizens.
Did I jump the gun when I took you to mean that you think Trump defied the 2019 order?
I don't know why you are still proceeding as if the Supreme Court hasn't already given you an answer about this, to an approximate first order: an alien has the right to notice and a hearing (at minimum via habeas petition) before acting on a final deportation order.
If the government arrests you as a deportable alien, your answer is "I am a citizen". If the government really is going around deporting random citizens, we have a much bigger problem. I realize The Resistance™ believes we have passed that point already, hence your hysterical blog post. I do not.
Trump is already openly exploring the idea of deporting American citizens.
Somewhere some ancient Athenians are saying that there is nothing new under the sun.
I'll worry more when it happens.
He could just stick them in prison for years with no trial and with extensive solitary confinement. That was OK, right?
I realize The Resistance™ believes we have passed that point already, hence your hysterical blog
postPOSTS.Every single one of DP's articles are just that: panic porn, hysterical blog. if he had wanted to be taken seriously as a retired attorney, he could have used his time more wisely by making a cogent, academic, well sourced one time argument about why Trump is fill in the blank. Instead, since January of this year, every single one is the same bullshlt. CNN might hire him but then again their ratings are in the dump
One-Man Rule
What happens when a President doesn't care whether his actions comply with the law? We are about to find out.
DAVID POST | 1.27.2025 11:24 AM
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/01/27/one-man-rule/
Are you advocating sending special forces to go to El Salvador to remove a citizen of El Salvador?
Do you realize how fucking idiotic you are about this, right?
Trump tried to facilitate. Bukele said no. That is the extent of what courts can demand of him.
If the court wishes to revisit this, he should simply laugh at them and then wipe his ass with their order.
If that's the case, then man, you sure have picked a pathetically weak leader.
This guy can't leverage one person back from El Salvador, a country with the population about equal to Maryland's and that probably doesn't want the guy anyway? Yet, we're supposed to believe Trump's asinine tariff policy is going to bring China and it's 1.4 billion people to its knees? Or that other countries are, in his wild-ass dreams, begging him to do a deal?
Okay, buddy. But you all but admitted that your guy is either disobeying the court our is a pathetic loser.
Of course Bukele would return the guy if Trump really wanted him to. But Trump doesn't want him to and SCOTUS has no authority over Bukele. Most likely Trump and Bukele have agreed to let it look like Bukele is refusing to return Abrego Garcia for exactly that reason. This is really just Trump defying SCOTUS disguised as a separate sovereign government refusing to cooperate.
But it really isn't imagine if a court had jurisdiction over me but not my brother. And the court ordered me to get $100 from my brother. Everyone knows that I don't want $100 from my brother.
Would he give it to me if I asked? Sure. Since the Court might order me to ask anyways, couldn't we understand that my brother KNOWS I don't want his money so he refuses so I get what I want. It sort of makes your head spin, but it makes sense.
Bukele would do any number of favors for Trump. But as he knows Trump really, really doesn't want this one granted, he won't. The question then becomes how hard Trump has to try to do something that he really doesn't want to do that would ultimately amount to force or persuasion, again with Bukele having full knowledge that it would all be a sham?
This absurdity is why our courts should not be involved in foreign policy.
You mistake being forced to try to actually giving a shit one way or the other.
If it was actually important, he would have made it happen.
This...is not serious. And the courts made it far less so.
Assuming that the Trump administration fails to facilitate the return of Mr. Abrego Garcia, it is difficult to see what the Court could do to force his return. However, what the Court should do is bar the administration from deporting any further persons to El Salvador. It is clear that every deportee is entitled to notice and a hearing, as SCOTUS ruled. It is certainly foreseeable that the result of at least one hearing will be that the deportation was improper. However, the administration is currently contending that once the deportee is handed to El Salvador, the administration has no ability to get him or her back. This makes the right to notice and a hearing illusory. The Court should bar the administration from deporting anyone before their hearing unless the administration can also get them back if the deportation is ruled improper. I suspect El Salvador would be happy to return Mr. Abrego Garcia if the alternative was the end of Trump's deal on deportations.
We paid El Salvador $6M to take them. Surely we can pay them to give one back?
At the very minimum, the Trump administration could refuse to make future payments to El Salvador for housing detainees and could announce its intention not to renew any contract with the Salvadorans unless Abrego Garcia is returned.
As the maxim goes, the man who pays the fiddler calls the tune.
I guess the lesson here might be, don’t illegally trespass the borders of this country and, if you do, avoid associated with MS-13.
Racists who assume everyone who speaks Spanish are members of gangs don't care who one associates with; they'll just make the accusation anyway.
Everyone who speaks Spanish is not illegally trespassing over the border and associating with MS-13 you nimrod. Actually rather obnoxiously racist and elitist of you to even make that connection. But what is the democrat party these days but obnoxious racist elitists? Oh and violent anti-semites.
That’s fine. But the question isn’t the process owed to an alien overstaying a temporary visa. What exactly is owed to an illegal alien member of terrorist organization? He’s going to be deported, even if he somehow finds himself back in this country.
Mr. Abrego Garcia is entitled to a hearing to prove that he is not an illegal alien member of a terrorist organization, rather than an alien overstaying a temporary visa, if that is what he is claiming. The problem is that the administration didn't just deport him, they handed him over to a friendly government for the express purpose of sticking him in a hellhole prison, apparently without any means of getting him back if turns out the administration made a mistake.
He's already had 2 hearings. Both found him to be an illegal gangbanger. In fact, there isn't even a question that he's an illegal.
Do you mean the hearing where the judge said he could not be sent to El Salvador, back in 2019?
Yes, that was one of them. Do you think that violating one obviates the other? I assure you, it does not.
I swear, some people speak as if they are being intentionally obtuse.
How would you interpret this differently if Trump accidentally deported a citizen to an El Salvador prison, under contract, and then claimed he was powerless to rectify it?
If someone were merely "deported" the remedy would be to allow him back in.
It seems too clever to allow Trump to moot a court order by paying a foreign entity to incarcerate the person.
Given that its a US citizen - which the courts do have jurisdiction over - that is entirely different.
Also note we are not paying ES to jail their own citizen. That this terrorist is in jail is entirely up to ES, as, again, it's their own citizen.
That is not correct or relevant. The question is — always — whether the court has jurisdiction over the defendant.
How is it different for a citizen?
What was done to Aberigo Garcia could be done to anyone - a fact Trump's defenders can't bring themselves to admit - and then Trump makes the same BS arguments about foreign policy, etc.
There's no difference.
First off, it is different because there is no legal argument for deporting a US citizen.
Secondly, it is different because if Trump did attempt to deport a US citizen, the Congress would act by impeaching and removing Trump from office for clearly violating the law.
Alternatively, the Cabinet would invoke the 25th Amendment because Trump would have clearly lost his ever loving mind to attempt such a thing.
Trump is safe here because the guy IS an illegal immigrant who is accepted to be an MS13 terrorist and who has played our immigration system for his own benefit for over a decade. As such, he has the support of the people. Even to the point of telling the courts to stick it up their collective a**es.
So, you want the courts to tell a president how he deals with foreign nations? I am betting you don't think that is a constitutional crises.
I also love how you apparently think it just affects this one case. "It is just a guy accidently deported to a country we are paying to house criminals." It doesn't. Full stop.
Think about it. It would affect EVERY foreign relations effort and allow the unelected judiciary to dictate foreign policy. If Trump made a good faith effort (who decides?) and El Salvador demanded four nukes or no deal, does that put Trump in contempt if he declines the demands? If the courts can tell the president he must negotiate, they can also tell him he can't negotiate. Right? I bet you could find more than few federal judges who would love to slap a TRO against negotiating with Putin or implementing the terms--especially if they don't like the results.
No. If that were the case, we could give full due process to determine whether someone is an alien, and then summarily execute him once it has been finally established that he is not. The people who wrote the constitution did not distinguish between citizens and aliens when providing for due process.
I don't see how his complaint can be with Congress when Congress already made what Trump did illegal. I suppose his complaint could be with Congress for not impeaching, convicting, removing, and then executing Trump.
He’s not a student who overstayed a visa (who also has no right to remain in this country by the way). He’s an illegal alien associated with a terrorist organization.
There's neither an association nor a terrorist organization.
He was rounded up in the company of other MS-13 members (association) and has been linked to violent crimes in El Salvador and here. He doesn't need to be found guilty, or even charged for that matter, to be deported. He is still illegal. He wasn't given legal status. A judge ordered he couldn't be deported to El Salvador.
They have dozens of
cellsgangs operating in dozens of cities under one umbrella includingterrorizingpatrolling apartment building in Colorado emanating from a foreign country. Sounds nothing like a terrorist organization.Who decides, legally, what a terrorist organization is? That would be the DHS. Who has designated MS-13 a terrorist organization? C'mon, you can guess. They are legally a terrorist organization--your feelings notwithstanding.
He was not.
He was not, even ignoring the fact that "linked to" is an utterly meaningless phrase. The fact that you feel the need to lie simply exposes how weak you know your own case is.
That was allegedly Tren de Aragua, not MS-13, and of course it was made up too.
No; it would actually be Congress. But if you mean who designates a particular organization as meeting the definition legislated by Congress, that would be the Secretary of State, not DHS. But it only applies to foreign organizations, not domestic ones.
My bad. You got me on the really big stuff. It wasn't the executive dept DHS but the executive State Dept who determines what organizations are to be deemed terrorist.
No; it would actually be Congress. But if you mean who designates a particular organization as meeting the definition legislated by Congress, that would be the Secretary of State, not DHS. But it only applies to foreign organizations, not domestic ones.
Effing semantics or grammar. Your go-to when you have nothing else. Seriously?
DHSState Dept "designates" but the designations don't determine who is legally on the list?"That was allegedly Tren de Aragua, not MS-13, and of course it was made up too."
Sorry I got my narco-terrorists confused. MS-13 are actully really nice guys who are misunderstood. I guess I was on some potent 'shrooms the dozens of times I saw the video of
MS-13Tren De Agua terrorizing an apartment building.If you have evidence of what Noem said yesterday regarding Garcia and his associations, including the sworn testimony resulting in his deportation order in 2019 (just not to El Sal), then please provide it.
MS-13 is a terrorist organization.
If you don't want to accept what the Supreme Court decided here, no one can help you. Not every wrong has a judicial remedy. That's the flaw in your analysis. Your complaint is with Congress which established the immigration law system.
If you don't want to accept what the Supreme Court decided here, no one can help you.
The court ordered the administration to facilitate Garcia's return. It's obvious that the administration is not attempting that, and in fact, the President is openly encouraging the El Salvadorean President to not return Garcia.
The President is clearly disobeying the SCOTUS. The remedy is impeachment.
Yeah, impeach a president for not rolling out the red carpet for uneducated, gang banging mestizo trash whose sole accomplishment on U.S. soil is producing a mentally deficient citizen child. That's the way to win over moderate whites.
Almost as effective as winning over moderates by engaging in blatant misinformation laced with hatred, racism, and eugenics. Combined with a flagrant disregard for rule of law you're really selling an inspiring vision of what our country stands for.
/s in case it wasn't obvious.
What's wrong with eugenics? It just means well born. Why would you want unwell born in society?
Yeah, those moderates really love gang members being allowed to stay in the country because we sent him to El Salvador instead of Timbuktu.
Which is all this is about. He is an illegal caught with gang members and accused of violent crimes in the US and El Salvador. But by all means, let's get the courts to create a constitutional crises by telling the president how to conduct foreign policy (which Scotus struck down 9-0).
Again, he was not.
Utter fabrication. He has never been accused of any violent crime anywhere at any time by anyone. (Unless we count you, I suppose.) A fabrication topped only by this:
Trump lost 9-0. SCOTUS "struck down" nothing. You are either deeply stupid or deeply dishonest or deeply stupid and dishonest.
They struck down the idea the lower court could tell the president to conduct foreign policy. Ya know, they literally said "The intended scope of the term “effectuate” in the District Court’s order is, however, unclear, and may exceed the District Court’s authority. The District Court should clarify its directive, with due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs." All nine judges agreed.
Also; "The application is granted in part and denied in part, subject to the direction of this order. Due to the administrative stay issued by The Chief Justice, the deadline imposed by the District Court has now passed. To that extent, the Government’s emergency application is effectively granted in part and the deadline in the challenged order is no longer effective."
I am done arguing about the virtues of MS-13 gang members. It was found by a judge in 2019 there was credible evidence to support his removal and a deportation order was filed withholding his removal to El Sal.
No they said facilitate his *release*. He has an order of deportation. He should've gone to another country. But who cares if he went back to his own country?
It's not like they gave him a choice as to where to go. They stuck him on a plane in shackles and delivered him to the very government that the immigration court had previously directed them not to do.
Patrick Henry, the 2nd: No they said facilitate his *release*. He has an order of deportation. He should've gone to another country. But who cares if he went back to his own country?
You: It's not like they gave him a choice as to where to go.
Yep, Patrick Henry, the 2nd made that exact argument when he said "Garcia chose to go back to El Salvador. DHS gave him the option."
Nice retort!! I have never seen a strawman argument so roundly defeated!!
And the GOP is under Trump's thumb so... there's another dead end. Trump gets to keep doing illegal things.
You need to update your talking points.
NOEM v. ABREGO GARCIA: No. 24A949: April 10, 2025
This is regarding the language "facilitate" in the lower courts ruling. A court cannot order an administration to facilitate anything in foreign policy. SCOTUS acknowledged the administration admitted an error and said the administration "should be prepared to share what it can concerning the steps it has taken..." SCOTUS didn't order the administration to do one damn thing. When the District Court takes up the case, minus the power to direct foreign relations, the administration can simply say "we don't accept the courts jurisdiction regarding foreign policy and do not need to turn over doodly-squat regarding foreign policy or foreign relations. Besides, it would all be redacted anyway."
Then, and only then, will SCOTUS rule on anything approaching the courts role in foreign policy.
The part of the SCOTUS order you quote refers to "effectuate," not facilitate."
No, it isn't, liar. It's regarding the use of the word "effectuate."
And yet, it did. And SCOTUS expressly upheld that.
Ya, a total cock-up on my part.
But eff you thinking I intentionally used the wrong word in an attempt to deceive. Especially when using the correct word would have been better.
You leftists and your crystal balls thinking you can read minds...
Congress provided that alleged enemy aliens can petition the courts for a writ of habeas corpus. It provided that non-dangerous enemy aliens can be ordered released. The Alien Enemies Act, passed in a century when Congress was more hospitable to aliens than it is today, provides more protection to non-criminal enemy aliens than is given to some other categories of aliens.
If you don’t like it, take up your beef with Congress.
My God, you people defending this shit by Trump are truly awful people.
Laken Riley could not be reached for comment.
That’s the stupidest excuse for deporting people-who have no criminal record here-without the process and ignoring a Supreme Court order. Unless you’re just a straight up racist, which I assume is the case.
Mary Phagan too, right?
This pretty well summarizes it.
I am quite certain the feeling is reciprocated back to those bending over backwards to reimport an illegal alien gangbanger.
With respect, that doesn’t seem like it addresses Prof. Post’s point. If a U.S. citizen were removed and imprisoned in El Salvador, would they have additional recourse to judicial relief than Abrego Garcia? If so, what and why? If not, do you simply think that the government is too virtuous to ever try to do that to a citizen, and too competent to do it accidentally? Or does the possibility just not especially concern you?
In my opinion, there is no judicial recourse. There are only political solutions here, and attempts to shoehorn a judicial solution are just not feasible short of upending our entire system of government.
Let's modify your hypothetical a bit. I like to remove Trump from hypotheticals since people lose their minds when he's involved.
Pretend it's the early 1980's. An American citizen is mistakenly deported to the Soviet Union through an administrative error. This citizen is also a dissident against the Soviets and has been sent to the gulag. Our relationship with the Soviets is perilous at this time with heightened tensions (Able Archer 83, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan for starters). Our President wants to negotiate nuclear disarmament treaties to cool down the threat of nuclear war.
The administration believes that if it presses the Soviets on the release of the citizen that it greatly endangers the chances of negotiating a nuclear arms treaty with the Soviets. The President chooses to pursue the good of the many over the good of the individual.
My questions:
1) Can a district court judge order the US government to 'facilitate' and 'effectuate' a return of an American citizen from the Soviets?
2) What would a district court judge accept as 'facilitating' here if the Soviets refuse to return him?
3) Does a district court judge get to order an administration to conduct foreign policy a certain way in order to achieve one goal (the return of an American citizen) at the expense of another goal that ostensibly is for the greater good (less chance of everyone dying in nuclear war)?
4) If 3 is yes, then what limits exist on what a district court can order an administration to do for foreign policy?
You’re missing the part about the US paying the Soviet Union to imprison people from other countries. Your hypothetical is not on point.
First, there's no evidence that the US is paying El Salvador to imprison Garcia. The US is paying El Salvador to keep TdA Venezuelans, but (so far) there's no credible evidence that the US government is paying El Salvador to keep El Salvadorans.
Second, my hypothetical seeks to find the limits of a judge's authority and doesn't aim to be a one-for-one replacement of today's circumstances.
Now that I've responded, can you at least answer the questions I posed?
In your hypothetical, the Court would not be able to order the President to procure the return of the wrongfully deported dissident. However, the Court could direct the administration not to deport anyone else to the Soviet Union without appropriate due process, which would include giving the deportee the opportunity to show why deportation is not appropriate.
The difference between your hypothetical and this case is that we do not have an adversarial relationship with El Salvador. If El Salvador believes the current arrangement is to its benefit, it would certainly agree to return Mr. Garcia if the US requested it. There is no evidence that the administration has actually requested this. Trump's little performance in the White House was a farce. President Bukele would absolutely give the man back if Trump asked. Since the administration claims it has no control over persons deported to El Salvador, the administration should not be allowed to deport anyone else there until it can show that those deportees can be returned to the US if the Court so directs.
Thank you for answering! So far, you're the only one to do so, despite the other evasive comments I've been fielding all evening.
I agree that a court could not order the President to use all means to secure an American citizen's release from the Soviet Union. In my hypothetical (as today's real life event shows), it's to the administration's own benefit to not screw up by deporting people to countries that they have a Withholding of Removal for.
It's a big black eye for ICE, one that they know they're going to have to pay for sooner or later. I don't think they're going to make that mistake again anytime soon.
Does the country need to have an adversarial relationship with a country for the executive conduct foreign policy unhindered by the judiciary? Seems like a terrible distinction to make, and one that is open to all kinds of abuse by enterprising judges with an axe to grind.
Even in my example it wasn't all doom and gloom; the US government was negotiating treaties and finding common ground where we could. Gorbachev was opening up the country and instituting reforms, making the West feel like maybe the conflict was getting better.
A craft lawyer for a plaintiff can put his case in front of an enterprising judge and can make a lot of hay.
That would violate Federal law. Judge Xinis could not make such an order, and if she does, even the appellate court would think twice before countermanding Congress's express command through the law.
If the administration admits that once they hand someone over to the government of El Salvador, they are unable to get them back, I don't see how it would violate federal law to bar the administration from doing this before the deportee gets the hearing everyone admits they are entitled to. Otherwise, the right to a hearing is a sham because there is no remedy even if the deportee wins.
The law says that aliens can be deported. The law also specifies the countries that they can be sent to: their home country if available, or a 3rd country if the country refuses them. There's no room in the law for judges to say "well, even thought you only made a mistake in just this one case, so we're going to prohibit all deportations even if they were otherwise done according to the law."
Furthermore, Congress has stripped jurisdiction from district courts over most immigration matters. In order for such an order to happen, Judge Xinis would have to go nuclear against black letter federal immigration law and decades of precedent from the courts.
You're thinking of a different case. Garcia got his hearing in 2019 and he got his appeal. He tried to make his case to remain in the US but he didn't prevail.
Garcia had an order of removal against him. He could have been deported anywhere except El Salvador. Unfortunately, a mistake was made in sending him home, which was the one place he couldn't go back to.
there's no evidence that the US is paying El Salvador to imprison Garcia. The US is paying El Salvador to keep TdA Venezuelans, but (so far) there's no credible evidence that the US government is paying El Salvador to keep El Salvadorans.
What nonsense. They are being paid $6M to imprison Tda guys, but if Trump asked that they imprison Garcia they might have said no?
Why would the USA need to pay to imprison Garcia in El Salvador?
He isn't a Venezuelan national whom was sent to CECOT obstensibly because the Venezuelan government started refusing to accept their own nationals back and we wanted to pressure them to resume accepting their own citizens.
He's an El Salvadoran, and certainly his own country can handle their own citizens without the USA paying to keep them there. El Salvador hasn't demanded money for the rest of their nationals we've deported, so why now?
If he were really a "terrorist," why would El Salvador want him there at all, let alone have to pay to feed and house him, if they weren't getting paid for it?
For the same reasons why any country wants their own nationals back.
So, in other words… they wouldn't. Thanks for confirming my point.
I cannot find any instance where the US government ever paid a foreign country to accept their own nationals back that we deported. We've run deportations without issue or payment for years, yet now they're all on the take from Trump? Come on.
Care to share what is out there, or are you operating in evidence-free mode tonight, counselor?
The evidence is that the administration has refused to provide any information about this, in defiance of multiple court orders. If what you were saying were true, the administration could've demonstrated that.
Could have certainly. Are they actually obligated to, Judge Xinis's order notwithstanding?
It hasn't escaped me that there's still no evidence presented. For someone from complains when I don't meet his exacting evidentiary standards, you sure seem to be forgetting to offer proof.
I am unclear what your use of "notwithstanding" means here.
Is it arguably covered as a state secret?
Given that the administration took the position that actual attack plans weren't classified, it might be an uphill slog to convince a judge that a commercial contract between the U.S. and El Salvador is a matter of national security.
Deflection. I'm disappointed but not surprised given your deliberate choice to not answer my hypothetical questions.
Are you afraid of the points you may have to concede? From me- someone who is not a lawyer?
These questions seem to miss the point here. Members of the executive branch did something illegal. Which branch of the government can stop them from continuing to break the law?
IANAL. It seems to me the best the courts can do is start to hold relevant individuals related to this issue in contempt. I presume Trump can use his pardon power to absolve them of all their crimes, though, so ... now what?
The law was broken; the administration doesn't contest that. What matters here is what can be done about it now. The horses have left the barn, so closing the barn door now doesn't help.
You asked: Which branch is supposed to step in now to reign in the executive?
The answer: The legislative branch. Congress.
That Congress isn't doing that now doesn't give the judiciary a license to do whatever it wants like Judge Dredd. Rather, that's a sign that everyone else should be pestering Congress to do something about how the executive conducts its foreign policy.
My hypothetical is designed to test the boundaries of judges. Can you please answer my questions?
I don't understand why you think substituting "the USSR" for "El Salvador" changes the answers to anything.
Will you answer my questions? Or will you follow along with the parade of commentators who are refusing to even try to answer?
Note that Trump cannot pardon civil contempt. IIRC the only options once a judge locks you up remedially is petition the judge directly or seek habeas. The US record for civil contempt lockup is 14 years.
Your hypothetical might make sense if El Salvador was a superpower with a nuclear arsenal comparable to that of the United States. And note that the US repeatedly instituted sanctions against the Soviet Union for various more significant reasons, and was able to get the U2 spy plane pilot back within two years. Trump has been willing to lean on almost every country in the world (well, not Russia) with tariffs and on numerous domestic institutions by cutting off funding or access. But Trump is too weak to do anything to El Salvador? What a terrible decline in American prestige.
My hypothetical makes perfect sense in determining the scope of a judge's authority to order the executive to make foreign policy.
Can you answer my questions, please?
No, I am not even remotely concerned a US citizen will "accidently" be deported. What does concern me is some far-left radical will "David Gale" the situation.
The media will go wild and not bother to investigate "why" the deportation happened--only focusing on the Trump admin. Kind of similar to all the media outlets leaving out the fact Garcia was in fact under a deportation order withholding his removal to El Sal.
Judicial relief ... probably not. This assumes that Trump WANTS to deport a US citizen and does NOT want to correct the mistake.
HOWEVER ... in this case, it is exceptionally likely that he would lose the support of the citizenry and his party and would be both Impeached and Convicted and then replaced.
In the alternative, it is also likely that his cabinet would invoke the 25th Amendment and have him removed and replaced.
The replacement would repatriate the unlawfully deported citizen.
Remember, Trump is pulling this shit because it is good and right and has the support of right thinking people. He could not do it otherwise. The courts have really screwed up here making themselves especially weak by their overstepping and a poor response by the Chief Justice.
The gangs he's so afraid of in 2019 of and the whole reason he got the order to stay here are now destroyed. So why does he still need to be in the US? What David and the rest of his army of lawyers should be doing is trying to get Bukale to release him into his actual home country if he's innocent.
Another expert witness on El Salvador! But how can it be a terrorist group if it's destroyed?
uh I have no idea what point you are trying to make. A group being destroyed doesn't absolve it or its former operatives of their crime as even a preschooler could tell you.
Um, what crime? Nobody has been accused of, let alone prosecuted for, or convicted of, a crime.
The crime he committed is he came here illegally. Even if he otherwise is as pure as driven snow. He came here illegally. He has no right to be here. The gangs have been decimated in El Salvador...(more so than outside) so its absurd for the totally not a gang member to still need protection from them....and since that was the only reason he got the protection...he can go.
The US can't freely hand out free passes to eternal residence for anyone who is afraid of something in their own country. Let alone against threats that no longer even exist. So if you're at the door sorry. If youve managed to sneak through and built a life sorry. You shouldn't be given preferential treatment over another person just because you're better at not being caught. Maybe start working on a legit visa with the list of potential sponsors you now have.
If he doesn't like the hassle he's going through now maybe he could have settled in anyone of the other 11 countries he crossed to get to the US and hid until he was caught and scrounged that order of protection against retaliation for a guy totally not involved with the gangs.
Why do you think that if you keep repeating this it will turn from something you pulled out of your ass into a fact?
Well, it can. But it hasn't done that, so I don't know what the purpose of your claim is. Instead, the U.S. has a law that forbids people from being sent (or sent back) to places where they have a well-founded fear of being tortured, killed, etc. A law which applied to Abrego Garcia. There were scores of places the U.S. might have sent him to. But not El Salvador. And if any of your claims were true, the administration could've proven that to a judge such that withholding of removal could've been vacated. But it didn't do so.
I'm not sure there's a good reason why not. Surely we want people in this country who are capable of supporting themselves and their families and staying out of trouble for 15+ years.
Geography isn't your strong suit, any more than human decency, apparently.
The only process Garcia was due was having his withholding of removal (to El Salvador) revisited, or to have him shipped to another country instead of El Salvador.
He already has an order of removal issued against him. His request to not go back to El Salvador because he'd be tortured by the government was denied. His appeals were denied.
His WOR only existed because of his incredulous story about a gang that was after the profits from his parent's business (The gang has been broken up by the government, and the business no longer operates), so revisiting the WOR should be easy once he gets back into the USA.
He can land in the morning, get his WOR dissolved, and be back on a plane to El Salvador before refueling is completed.
About an hour ago the government told Judge Xinis that it would do what I posted about earlier: Garcia will be allowed to enter the US, but will be immediately detained in accordance to Federal immigration law until his Withholding of Removal is terminated or until a third nation takes him.
https://x.com/ProfMJCleveland/status/1912233872504299684
My guess is that Judge Xinis will be unhappy with that response.
Then give her a Xanax.
Judge Xinis this afternoon: "Buckle up."
Your prescription for Xanax may be what the doctor ordered.
If it turns out that Trump defied a court order which had been issued in favor of human rights, then this should be subject to impeachment.
If he's guilty, then promptly returning Trump to private life would give his party time to recoup under (hopefully) Vance - the constitutionally-designated spare tire. That would reduce the chance that the disgrace of this president would lead to the restoration of establishment progressive rule, with its well-known respect for human rights (/sarc).
What court order might Trump be guilty of defying?
I said *if.* Post and others have given their view, now let the House Judiciary Committee look into it to see if Trump actually defied a court order which was in favor of human rights.
"If" which order exactly? Since your posting this under a blog entry about Garcia, it's not unreasonable for me to assume you are referencing something in this case. I'm wondering exactly what that might be.
It's not like the Supreme Court didn't already make a ruling on this, albeit on an emergency basis. I agree there might be some further legally problematic action by the government here. But you are going to have to use all your words for me to understand what you think that is. I need something more than Orange Man Bad.
I was looking at Post's allegation that "A 2019 court order expressly prohibits Abrego Garcia's removal to El Salvador because he faced a "clear probability of future persecution" there and had "demonstrated that El Salvadoran authorities were and would be unable or unwilling to protect him.""
But Prof. Post didn't cite the 2019 order in his comment in this very comment board, so maybe I'm missing something?
It's 2025, those fears are no longer relevant.
Indeed. El Salvador has changed IMMENSELY since 2019 and MS-13 has been effectively dealt with in ES.
Are you testifying as an expert witness on El Salvador right now?
He wasn't threatened by MS-13, so why would that be relevant? And wasn't the way that these gangs were "effectively dealt with" by locking up, without any due process, suspected members in CECOT? And isn't he being held hostage in CECOT, with all those people? So why would he be safe there now?
And so you see how the court order actually works against this guy . . . . Bukele isn't going to release him, whereas he may have done so absent the order.
Why would he have done that?
This is not new. The Supreme Court took that into account when it made its emergency ruling. Which is why I am perplexed that people like you are persisting with the notion that there is another judicial shoe to drop here. There isn't.
The defied order wasn't even a court order. It was an immigration ruling (Article II not III) that he could not be deported to his home country.
It's an interesting question whether the government explicitly ignored that order, without legal justification (based on yesterday's public statement by Stephen Miller). As a government lawyer in prior statements to the district court characterized the deportation as a mistake, the district court judge should absolutely investigate that further in light of Miller's comments, to find out whether it was actually intentional, or that was mere bravado BS from him. No outcome from that will change what the court can order, because as SCOTUS explained the separation of powers prevents any court from ordering what this judge attempted to.
Yes, ignoring that immigration finding could be grounds for impeaching someone. It is probably is not the president. It certainly is not by this House of Representatives.
No Trump haters can talk about his rationally, apparently.
SCOTUS did not in fact "explain" that. Maybe you should read the actual decision instead of something Stephen Miller said about the decision.
Miller is right, as far as he goes.
Miller is a contemptible demagogue and liar. If you believe him you're a dupe.
This seems like a dumb side quest. The government has acknowledged that he shouldn't have been deported and that they made an error in doing so.
One ex-government lawyer...
It's on the record to the court. The judge has every right to demand the government explain what the truth is, or whether it misled the court about that. The context of this case that went before SCOTUS was that the deportation should not have happened, as the government stipulated. If that is not true, that's a rather big deal.
And the Acting Field Office Director Enforcement and Removal Operations for ICE, who oversaw Garcia's removal:
And the solicitor general of the United States:
"Through administrative error, Abrego-Garcia was removed from the United States to El Salvador."
They couldn't help it that Abrego-Garcia was in Alberto Garcia's file!
Magnus Pilatus, for all the alphabet soup following his name, appears to be unfamiliar with the concept of judicial estoppel.
Perhaps the accrediting agency for whatever school issued his JD should have some questions.
Also the Solicitor General.
Don't be a pussy and take a stand.
He gave the court order MORE deference than it deserved.
"He gave the court order MORE deference than it deserved."
How so?
He should have simply said "You have zero jurisdiction over foreign policy and I am protecting my constitutional rights" and moved on.
He owed the courts zero deference with this.
Any more than the courts owe the President deference if he demands they come to a specific verdict.
Where exactly does foreign policy end and domestic civil liberties begin?
The DoJ determined that this illegal El Salvadorean alien could not legally be sent back to El Salvador. Then allegedly the DoJ changed its mind without notice and without judicial review and sent him back. This raises important legal issues.
It also puts the court in a bit of a spot. It can't order El Salvador around, but it *can* follow up with the U. S. executive. It's not a situation with a whole bunch of precedent and I'm not quite sure how the court should handle it, but there *is* a court with authority over the issue, and that's the U. S. Senate as Court for the Trial of Impeachments.
The act of formally deciding that the guy can't legally be sent back, then changing its mind without notice or a chance for judicial review - yeah, even granting that he's an illegal alien baddie, some degree of due process is owed here. At minimum a letter that "we were wrong (or circumstances have changed), we *can* send you back, and we will by [date] unless you can get a court to stop us."
Can you point out the "human rights" law and any case law supporting said "human rights" laws that are specific to this deportation case?
So many people toss around "humans rights" as if it's specifically in the code. Sure, there are laws that can be construed as such, but there isn't a specific "human rights" part. Sure, we have Constitutional Rights, but those again are actual laws.
Civil liberties, then.
re: civil rights, it is alleged by some that El Salvador does not value civil rights. Thus wouldn't it be
deliciousunfortunate if Democrats who visited the country in seeking to virtue signal, could not return to Americe because they were imprisoned as terrorists because "El Salvador does not value civil rights"?Reps. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD), Maxwell Frost (D-FL), and Yassamin Ansari (D-AZ) pledged a visit to El Salvador’s Terrorism Confinement Center, referred to as the CECOT, which Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele built after entering office.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/3380573/pam-bondi-democrats-visit-el-salvador-kilmar-abrego-garcia-detached-from-reality/
Uh, yes, it would indeed be unfortunate if Americans were kidnapped by a foreign government.
Don't be hasty. They seem to be volunteering for it.
It's cute when you virtue signal about the evil of violence, while your ilk terrorizes Americans on US soil.
I realize plenty of people don’t like conservatives much, but “terrorizes” seems a bit much.
Either the one that says the government must "facilitate his immediate return" and "ensure that this his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador." Or the one that hasn't been issued yet, that will push him to take the court orders more seriously than he is taking them. As I implied, I don't know whether we have reached defiance, or are just getting closer to it.
You mentioned a 2019 order - wouldn't that be relevant if we're discussing defiance of orders?
The order that the Supreme Court said the district court could make does not require to achieve the return (or release) of Garcia from the custody of his home country. It's impossible for the government to defy that order, because it doesn't compel what you think it does. Both you and the judge appear to remain confused about that.
Derangement syndrome is a terrible thing.
Yes, MaddogEngineer is an expert on what the judge is "confused" about, despite clearly not having read any of the orders in this case.
I have read them. I reject the idea that the law is reserved for a priestly class. Because the Supreme Court per curiam was not difficult to read. They explained why the changed "effectuate" to "facilitate", because of the constitutional separation of powers.
You haven't said where I might be in error, just lobbed an <ad hominem appeal to authority. Everything else is special pleading. I can't help that you or others want the district court to be able to order the president to do something here, despite what SCOTUS decided.
They did not explain that, because they didn’t do that.
>Either the one that says the government must "facilitate his immediate return" and "ensure that this his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador." Or the one that hasn't been issued yet, that will push him to take the court orders more seriously than he is taking them. As I implied, I don't know whether we have reached defiance, or are just getting closer to it.
Can you wicker in there how the El Salvadorans have no say in the matter?
El Salvador is under contract to the US Government to house these people.
Presumably that gives us some say in the matter.
Who adjudicates contract disputes between the US and El Salvador?
>Presumably
That's doing a lot work in your argument.
"Who adjudicates contract disputes between the US and El Salvador?"
Indeed. If the Trump administration were to notify President Nayib Bukele that the U.S. would pay nothing further due to El Salvador under the contract and would not renew the contract unless it returns Abrego to the U.S., in what tribunal would El Salvador sue?
Presumably seems to be making your argument absolutely useless.
I think my main complaint about your OP is that I actually understand the meaning of the word "facilitate", and how it differs from "effectuate". And until now, I would have assumed you did, too.
Facilitate: "make (an action or process) easy or easier."
Effectuate: "put into force or operation."
That is to say, an order to effectuate Garcia's return would indeed require the administration to actually make it happen. An order to facilitate his return merely requires the administration to make it easier for him to return.
We have these two words for a reason, and they mean different things. And I assume the Court permitted the one, and forbade the other, because they meant the one, and not the other.
So, Trump has requested Garcia's return, and offered assistance in accomplishing it. In so doing, he has facilitated it. The order is satisfied, as unsatisfactory as that may seem.
He has?
Such was my impression, but I can't back it up. Mea culpa.
He certainly has offered a plane to fly Garcia back, though, which would be facilitation enough.
Again, this is the key difference between facilitating something, and effectuating it: When ordered to facilitate something, you're under no obligation to see that it gets done. You just have to make getting it done easier.
The catch-22 is that the administration tells El Salvador the guy was deported because he was MS-13 and is therefore a terrorist. El Salvador is saying we can't release a terrorist (relying on US govt's claim the guy is a terrorist). El Salvador is not holding him for crimes committed in El Salvador but at the US GOVT's request and being paid for the same.
The same plane that brought him to El Salvador could return him to the US. If he is not being held by El Salvador for crimes committed in El Salvador; and is not serving a prison sentence for a conviction or sentence in El Salvador...he is only being held at request of the U.S. So it all seems like smoke and mirrors. Bukele talking about "smuggling" him back to the US?? Why? Hand him back to Bukele's paymasters and they will take care of it. It requires almost nothing of El Salvador. Anybody who believes otherwise is full of shit. Not spoken of by Bukele: the reputation of CECOT is NOBODY leaves (alive). Especially people alleged to be MS13. Bukele can't let it happen for internal political reasons. Garcia was sent there by the US for internal political reasons. This administration's and Bukele's administration's political reasons are mutually beneficial to each other (plus Bukele is getting paid). Its mobster shit and its demeaning of the US to even be this position.
And this is how Trump teaches out of control federal judges a lesson.
Nothing teaches "out of control federal judges a lesson" like a would-be dictator daring the courts to enforce the law against the guy who controls law enforcement. If he really wanted to teach them a lesson, he could just ship them to El Salvador too, amirite?!
"So, Trump has requested Garcia's return, and offered assistance in accomplishing it. In so doing, he has facilitated it. The order is satisfied, as unsatisfactory as that may seem."
Has he? I've not seen any statement by the government that they've asked for him back, or would even allow him back into the country. In fact, Bukele said that he didn't have the power to return him to the US because he'd have to "smuggle" him in. That statement doesn't give the impression that the US has done anything to facilitate his return.
Both parties, currently under contract with each other, are claiming they are powerless to do anything.
It's obvious bullshit, and the people defending this are either morons or think everyone else is.
I'm not sure which is worse.
Yes, it is obvious BS. And that's the beauty of it.
Who adjudicates contract disputes between the US and El Salvador?
You've asked twice who adjudicates contract disputes between the US and El Salvador. No one has answered. Methinks no one wants to state that anarchy governs all international relations. The two nations come to an agreement or they don't.
The bigger problem, as we can see in this thread, is that some people actually are stupid enough to believe the BS.
If Trump really wanted to undo his administration's error and bring Abrego Garcia back, I'm sure Bukele would cooperate. But Trump doesn't want him back. Anyone with any sense can infer that there has been a discussion between them in which they agreed to let it look like Bukele was refusing to return him, because SCOTUS has no authority over the Salvadoran government. If SCOTUS tells Trump to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return and Bukele "refuses", then Trump can say he's tried and leave it at that. Yes, this is obvious BS that nobody but a moron would believe, but there are a lot of morons out there, and also a lot of racists who are glad to be rid of a brown guy from Central America and are willing to at least pretend to believe the BS.
"Anyone with any sense can infer that there has been a discussion between them in which they agreed to let it look like Bukele was refusing to return him"
Everyone agrees on this. Its why the court proceedings are a waste of time.
Except without the decisions in the proceedings, Trump can claim he did nothing wrong and hold up the lack of court decisions and orders as proof. The proceedings are useful in that they highlight the reality of the situation: Trump is ignoring the courts and going his own way.
And he said that right in front of Trump, so there's not even a pretense of miscommunication. If Trump were not a sociopath, he would've immediately responded, "You don't have to smuggle him. Our plane will be there tomorrow, and you can just put him on board."
Now why would he do that? This is just in your face defiance non-defiance.
I said if he weren't a sociopath.
It is malicious compliance. Make an idiotic demand and do not expect others to take it seriously.
He abided by the exact wording of the order.
His goal is to stick it to the courts.
I agree. Because he's a fascist. He wants all these court confrontations.
Except he would not qualify for entry into the country by ANY reading of immigration law.
He would, best case, be sent elsewhere. Somewhere less pleasant than El Salvador.
We would not be taking him back in the US. Precisely zero chance of it.
...but, he IS a citizen of El Salvador. We do not have the power to demand ES give us a citizen of theirs whose only crime here is...coming here illegally.
1. forbade the other
False. The SC told the lower court to clarify what "effectuate" meant.
2. Trump has requested Garcia's return
Lately you seem to be confused between something actually being true, and something being falsely declared true. You confuse the form with the reality.
"Requested" does not mean colluding in advance, and openly, with the requestee to have the request denied. You would recognize this instantly if, for example, your lawyer "requested" the DA to drop charges and then immediately gave a joint news with the DA where they said they were working together to put you away for good.
Says who?
I can be told "Request this from that person" and I can ask the request as lamely as I want and specify I do not care if they say yes or no.
I would have STILL honored the order.
Pro tip: the Court did not "forbid" the other.
SCOTUS absolutely did forbid the district court from ordering the president this way. Why they changed the words of the judge's order. Because they told her she did not have this authority.
SCOTUS forbid nothing and did not change the words of the judge's order. (Except with regard to the already passed deadline.) Like I said, you should try reading the actual decision. And if you don't understand it, you should just admit that instead of exposing your inferiority complex about a "priestly class."
You sound like Stephen Miller (Trump won, unanimously!). At the very least, Sotomayor, Kagan and Jackson don't think so.
Why, that almost sounds like a majority.
3 is a majority now, right?
Some people even know what words like "unanimously" mean!
I'm glad you explained this, as Nieporent claims it's exceedingly complicated to understand. Certainly not something us mere mortal (non-lawyers) can possibly grasp.
"So, Trump has requested Garcia's return, and offered assistance in accomplishing it."
Is that as true as everything else you have said, Brett?
The Court is free to engage in its own foreign policy if it so wishes. Can the President demand sentences be handed down as well?
I mean, if we're going to stomp all over separation of powers, let's go all out.
What do you think facilitate means?
It does not mean move heaven and earth. It also doesn't mean make a request.
It actually means make it possible if Bukele decides to release Garcia, for him to return. Which they have done.
Why do you think the Supreme Court did not order the Administration to Effectuate Garcia's return? That was her original order, and it is no longer an obligation of the administration, and indeed it never was because the district court did not have authority to order it.
That is not what SCOTUS said.
Where did the Supreme Court order Trump to "effectuate" Garcia's return?
Which part of " The rest of the District Court’s order [i.e., all but the already passed deadline] remains in effect" confused you?
Can you quote me the part of the order that clearly says they have to bring him back, other than "effecuate"?
If it was clear the Supreme Court would not have ordered Xinis to clarify her directive.
You said: "Where did the Supreme Court order Trump to "effectuate" Garcia's return?"
DMN answered you.
Now here's new goalposts.
That is not the behavior of someone interested in the truth; you just want to win the argument.
So, we're at a constitutional crisis because Trump *might* not take seriously a court order that hasn't been issued yet?
Do you realize how stupid and hysterical you sound when you make such a bullshit argument?
Why do you keep trollingly sealioning? You know full well what orders he has defied.
The dirty little secret is finally out: Small-d democratic values like the rule of law, due process, respect for human rights, honest elections, respect for free speech, respect for pluralism, and the like, only work to the extent that people in power act in good faith. Arguably this is not the first administration to be selective about which democratic values to respect, but the sheer blatantness of this one is unprecedented.
At this point, most Americans still don't have to care because it's not yet affecting them. I'm sure there are commenters here who don't give a rat's ass about someone who may well be innocent being unlawfully deported and tortured in a third world prison so long as he has brown skin.
Stick around long enough, eventually it will. As a functional matter, the American people elected a full on fascist. How far down that road he actually takes us remains to be seen.
>The dirty little secret is finally out: Small-d democratic values like the rule of law, due process, respect for human rights, honest elections, respect for free speech, respect for pluralism, and the like, only work to the extent that people in power act in good faith.
The abuses of the Obama & Biden years didn't clue you in to this one?
Can you give us a concrete example in which either Obama or Biden flat out refused to obey a court order?
I know you accept as an article of faith that if something is evil, Obama and Biden must have done it. But I'd like to see an actual concrete example, if you don't mind.
>Can you give us a concrete example in which either Obama or Biden flat out refused to obey a court order?
First of all, that's an additional request under the premise that Trump is guilty of this. Which is false.
Secondly,
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/obama-administration-defies-courts-directive-settles-syrians-texas-without-advance-notice-or
And who can forget:
https://thefederalist.com/2025/03/17/remember-when-biden-bragged-about-defying-scotus-and-corporate-media-shrugged/
Took two seconds to find this.
Maybe you should've taken more than two seconds, because if you would rely on real media outlets instead of MAGA Pravda, you'd know that the second one is a lie. Biden did not brag about defying SCOTUS.
oh look who is sealioning now! your handlers are not sending us their better paid trolls
Pro tip: that's not even what sealioning means. It refers to asking questions and I didn't ask one.
Hilarious to see Nieporent accusing anyone else of Pravda.
George Soros DNC paid trolls aren't what they used to be. That's what hiring illegal immigrants gets ya! /s
Those are accusations that they disobeyed court orders, from people very obviously strongly opposed to Democrats. (Texas AG Ken Paxton and a writer for The Federalist). Maybe they are accurate and not just giving in to their biases, but there should be more neutral sources available describing those cases and situations.
Woah, good catch. With that in mind, I'll only accept criticisms of Trump from people who aren't obviously strongly opposed to MAGA like you.
Whooosh.
Biden admitted to ignoring courts on "student loan forgiveness".
That's hilarious, since my student loans are most definitely not forgiven.
You're not a key Democrat client constituency.
That's not true. The courts blocked a program to forgive student loan relief, so he tried a different route.
Can you point to any actual court order/decision that you don't think the administration heeded?
That. Specifically.
Trump had abided by court decisions more than Biden ever did.
No one is under any obligation to obey a court order not actually about the thing they are doing. So if a court says you can't mow your lawn with a power mower because the noise is too loud for your neighbors, that doesn't stop you from buying a goat or using a manual mower to get to the same outcome.
And I agree that up until now Trump has abided by court decisions; that's not a defense for ignoring them in this situation, though.
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/obama-administration-defies-courts-directive-settles-syrians-texas-without-advance-notice-or
"innocent"
A criminal conviction is not the only grounds for deportation.
And I wouldn't require a criminal conviction for deportation. However, I would like to see some evidence to support the claim that he is. So far none has been forthcoming. And I'll bet if there were such evidence we'd know about it by now.
He entered illegally. We sent him back to his home country.
The courts can move on or they can continue to flail. SCOTUS has already neutered use of the Alien Enemies Act, its the best the courts can hope to accomplish.
Have they, though? The AEA isn't "neutered" if the Trump administration just continues to deport under it while snatching up random resident aliens without a warrant and moving them away from family and legal resources to prevent any meaningful habeas actions.
If violating a visa is all it takes, I'd like to see Melania and Musk on the next flight to El Salvador.
An immigration ALJ found there was enough evidence of this. Are you against quasi-judicial proceedings in the administrative state now?
"but the sheer blatantness of this one is unprecedented."
Ah, no, not really. Does, "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it" ring a bell?
I don't think Jackson said it, and the only decision to be enforced was the U. S. Supreme Court ordering the Georgia trial court to undo the conviction of a white missionary. The missionary got pardoned before the Supremes could take further action. Had the case gone further, the Supremes *might* have simply made an order that the missionary get released from prison, and resisting *that* would have been a problem.
Guantanamo is the obvious recent precedent.
Like much of MAGA, you misunderstand that possibly apocryphal quote. Jackson was not disobeying any court order in that context; the U.S. wasn't even a party to the case. The order was directed at the state of Georgia. Jackson's alleged statement was very very much less than admirable, and anti-ruleoflawy, but it was not defiance of anything.
Not to mention Georgia's militia was larger than the US Army.
" that the Administration is content to leave the decision about whether to release Abrego Garcia from custody to the Salvadorans;"
Uh... that's because it is the Salvadorans decision. It's just the simple reality of the matter.
But then again, whenever did reality get in the way of the Party of Science? Two biological sexes? Nope, not the Party of Science that's also On the Right Side of History! Now there's an infinite number of biological sexes, but only for humans, not for any other mammal.
So why not create a reality where a US president reigns over a foreign country!
I'm betting that if Trump asked El Salvador to return him they probably would. But of course he's not going to so there's no way to know if I'm right.
He already did, the El Salvador President said they will not be releasing any terrorists.
Really? Trump asked El Salvador to send him back?
I doubt this but if you have a citation I'll be happy to take a look at it.
Well, one can simply reason it.
At the press conference yesterday, the El Salvador President unequivocally stated he will not be releasing any terrorists. It's not likely that the statement happened in a vacuum without any dialog whatsoever.
Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean the question wasn't asked.
And how does El Salvador know he is a terrorist? The US Govt said he was. And who is paying El Salvador to detain him? The US Govt is. Who therefore has an incentive to not release him? El Salvador
El Salvador can deny the above; but then they are left with the proposition that they imprison people for life with no accusation of a crime being committed, no trial and no sentence. Bukele is the prosecutor, judge and jury. Oh wait..that's exactly what the US wants to happen here. The executive (executive order) has decided gangs are terrorists organizations. The executive has decided your a member of the gang (atty gen). The executive has decided your punishment (life in CECOT). Who knew the US and El Salvador had so much in common! Were like besties now. All of America should be so proud. Who needs Canada or the EU or Japan as allies? We have EL Salvador now.
You have any evidence that the US is paying El Salvador to incarcerate its own citizen?
I thought the agreement is for us to pay El Salvador to incarcerate TdA members, which are Venuzuelan.
Why would they take him, otherwise?
US: "Here, we have a guy who's a gang member/terrorist. Do you want him in your country?"
ES: "Sure, why not! We love terrorists here! The more, the merrier! We love them so much we'll spend our own money to feed and house him!"
Its actually an obligation of countries to take back their own citizens.
South Sudan was recently reminded of that. When the US said they were cancelling all visas until they took back the illegals we attempted to return.
"WASHINGTON (AP) — Secretary of State Marco Rubio said Saturday that the United States was revoking all visas held by South Sudanese passport holders, accusing the African nation’s government of “taking advantage of the United States.”
“Every country must accept the return of its citizens in a timely manner when another country, including the United States, seeks to remove them,” Rubio said in a statement, adding that “South Sudan’s transitional government has failed to fully respect this principle.”
https://apnews.com/article/rubio-south-sudan-visas-f2716e1871d8d1422546fdc447bac215
I hardly think the US wants to set a precedent of paying countries to fulfill their obligations.
But by all means share any information you may have on the subject.
So it sounds like there isn't actually any such obligation, which is why the U.S. is threatening South Sudan instead of reminding them of that.
That was the reminder.
>And how does El Salvador know he is a terrorist?
Uh, he was an El Salvadoran citizen before coming to America.
Can you go back through your statement and enumerate all the assumptions you're making? I started this list but lost track.
- You assumed El Salvador had no prior knowledge of this El Salvadoran citizen.
- You assume El Salvador has a direct financial incentive on his detainment, and it's sufficient enough to deny release to the US Government in face of any retributive action.
- You assume it's "life in prison".
- You assume El Salvador imprisons people for life without any accusation of crimes, trials, or sentences.
- You assume all these decisions are made solely by President Bukele.
- You assume there are no justifications for terror designations. Just whimsy.
- You assume there is zero reason to believe this man has any ties to a terrorist organization.
---
You're making an awful lot of assumptions for someone going around with "attorney" in their moniker. But then again, every day on this board demonstrates that even people allegedly trained to think and reason critically often fall victim to motivated reasoning, hyperbolic claims, and the same social hysteria and moral panics the pre-teens on reddit succumb too.
And what did the U.S. base that on? The unsupported word of a dirty cop.
(Note that this is a different dirty cop than the one who claimed that the gay hairdresser was a member of TdA!)
Bahaha! You accuse others of Pravda and then cite to far-left rag TNR? Good luck with that!
I expect you to vanish after this one, but here goes.
You clearly didn't read your own article, or you are intentionally misrepresenting it like a dirty liar.
The cop whispering sweet nothings to a hooker is unrelated to the arrest of Garcia. Yet you, and Sargent are using it as an ad hom. It's too bad your species doesn't feel shame like humans do.
Secondly, right after that it goes through ICE's protocol for gang identification and how ICE reasoned Garcia was in a gang.
But you spin it as just some crooked cop nailing this poor innocent illegal to the wall.
Now that Out of Africa has been debunked. Which species do you think your kind is closer to? Not us Homo Sapien Sapiens.
The cop's crime is unrelated to the arrest of Garcia, and I never remotely said otherwise. I said that the claim he's in MS-13 is based solely on the unsupported word of this cop, who happens to be dishonest. Judging credibility by past acts of dishonesty is not in fact "ad hominem" at all.
You must have a different link than I posted. It literally says that "how they reasoned" it was that the dirty cop said so.
Interesting TNR article, David.
Was that Maryland cop getting behind in his work?
Post with another entry in his "Diary of a Madman" series. If I recall, his first entry a few weeks back was an unhinged rant about Trump appointing himself head of the Kennedy Center. Even most leftists weren't nearly as upset about it as Post was, who was in hysterics. At the time, I predicted Post would have nothing to offer the next four years other than anti-Trump tirades, and, so far, he has not failed to deliver. Just another broken man. Quite sad. I truly wish him nothing but the best and a return to sanity.
Why do you think you're qualified to judge anyone else's sanity, given your obvious TDS?
Post with another entry in his "Diary of a Madman" series.
+1
FD Wolf: "Hysterics"?! Please, point to what you thought represented hysterics in my Kennedy Center post. For your convenience, here's the link: https://reason.com/volokh/2025/02/10/the-kennedy-center-really/
I fear that your inability to distinguish commentary from hysteria makes it difficult to take seriously anything you write.
I don’t know about hysterics, but it certainly a hit overwrought, especially for an issue you admit doesn’t really matter.
In case you missed it, Professor Post has challenged you to back up your statement about his Kennedy Center comments. Are you going to ignore the challenge and slink away?
I think that the key here is something not mentioned in the post. Abrego Garcia is a citizen of El Salvador, and not a citizen of the USA.
Imagine a parallel situation in which the administration extradited someone to Canada who was a Canadian citizen who had crossed the border illegally into the USA, and who would be subject to Canadian judicial process upon return. Now consider that the administration did that in violation of a court order not to do so. The administration would not be able to de jure force the Canadian government to give the Canadian citizen back to the USA. It could ask, and it could exert diplomatic or other pressure to do so, but the Canadian citizen whom it handed back to Canada would be subject to the Canadian government's oversight and any decision on whether to render him back to the USA would be Canada's.
That, I think, is the frame - and it's also why, I think, Bukele referred to Garcia as a terrorist (which I think - but am not going to look up right now - is how his government treats alleged gang members (including members of MS-13).
This is all true, but so far the Trump administration seems to be saying that it doesn't have to do ANYTHING to try to get him back, nor to tell the judge what it might try to do to get him back.
That's a very different response than "we asked nicely, but he actually violated El Salvadoran law so they are going to hold him there under their laws and not just because we accidentally sent him there."
Bondi announced yesterday that the Administration will facilitate Garcia's return to the US by providing a plane, if he is released from Salvadoran custody, which doesn't seem likely to happen.
All this would be persuasive if there were any evidence that Trump were acting in good faith to retrieve him.
That's obviously not the case.
Instead this is being leveraged as a feature, not a bug.
Why would he?
You can demand whatever you wish. Nobody is obligated to do it how you want it done.
So, Trump can deport any alien to his home country without due process, do nothing to try to get him back, and there is no remedy. All hail Dear Leader, our "benevolent" authoritarian.
The legal alien could just fly back to the US, present their valid visa and enter the US again.
But poor Garcia is a criminal is El Salvador, so they locked him up. No flights for him. Also he has no valid US visa.
He has not been convicted of a crime, here or in El Salvador.
He's Salvadoran and the Salvadoran government there considers him a criminal. You nor I have better information on him than they do.
Why? What information would they have about someone who hasn't been in the country in 15 years and left at age 16?
There may be a remedy, but enforcing a repatriation of a country's own citizen back to the USA wouldn't be among the options that a court or the US government could enforce de jure.
There better be a remedy that acts as a strong deterrent or we are screwed.
He had his due process - two courts found him to be an inadmissible alien, and he had an outstanding deportation order against him.
I'd like to hope that governments don't treat alleged criminals this way--by dumping them into a prison designed to torture them, extract slave labor, and then kill them. In the US, that kind of treatment is enough to give a solid asylum case. And as of yet, no one has provided any evidence of those allegations.
Consider that Bukele, a self-described dictator, who runs a prison designed to disappear people and strike terror into his own citizens, was invited to the White House to joke around with the US President. That is alarming.
Uh... that's because it is the Salvadorans decision. It's just the simple reality of the matter.
If the US has entered into a contract with a foreign country that gives us NO ABILITY to retrieve people who have been detained because of ADMINISTRATIVE ERROR, that should be sufficient cause to fire whomever had us sign that contract, and we need to immediately negotiate a new one.
You're not addressing the criticism, only doubling down.
The El Salvadoran government said "No, we are not releasing him". That's it. That's the end of it. No judge can order anything to change that.
Can we send Seal Team Six to get him back? Yes. So it's obviously not "the end of it." (No, I am not saying we should do that.) Can we put 1,000% tariffs on Salvadoran goods until they let him go? Yes. So it's obviously not "the end of it." Can we stop all payments to El Salvador for the holding of hostages at CECOT until they let him go? Yes. So it's obviously not "the end of it." Can we stop all payments of any sort to El Salvador until they let him go? Yes. So it's obviously not "the end of it."
Yeah, but none of those things are gonna happen.
So I guess Trump isn't actually complying with the court's order to facilitate it.
I don't see how the failure to stop payments is defying the court's order.
Did the court say, "Do the absolute bare minimum that could be argued to be making a feeble attempt to facilitate his return"? Or did it say, "take all available steps to facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia to the United States as soon as possible. "
POTUS Trump talked to the President of El Salvador about Garcia, the illegal alien gangbanger. Bukele said NFW, Garcia stays in El Salvador. What more do you want? The case is closed. The judge can take Midol for the pain.
The administration to take all available steps, as ordered. I thought that was pretty clear from the fact that I boldfaced those words in quoting the court's order.
I missed the part where you even alleged, much less proved that Trump asked Bukele to give Garcia back.
Are you actually saying that the court's order somehow extends to forcing Trump to commit an act of war against another sovereign nation? That's a pretty crazy reading of "facilitate."
There are so many options between "Wink wink:: Bukele says no" and an act of war.
We can:
- stop paying El Salvador to take deportees
- review any other agreements/funds received by El Salvador
- park an aircraft carrier off their national waters
- send diplomats to negotiate
- not invite the "coolest dictator" to the White House for a reputation-buffing photo-op and McDonalds luncheon.
- provide assistance to another national entity that has a beef with El Salvador
- provide assistance to El Salvadorian opposition groups in an attempt to create issues for Bukele
- enforce economic sanctions and/or tariffs on El Salvador
- seize the US assets of El Salvadorian leadership
etc.
Trump understands leverage. He understands that he has the ability to do all of these things, even the less-than-ethical ones. If he cared about following the court order and getting Garcia back into the US, he'd have grabbed Bukele's "pussy" by now and Garcia would be back before you could say "special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun."
And the court can't order any of the things in your list. So it doesn't matter that you think those are options.
What sophistry.
'facilitate' doesn't mean 'use any means necessary'. They don;\'t teach that at the law school you supposedly went to?
So, courts should run foreign policy?
That is your big idea?
Or maybe the courts just provide a check and balance to the executive branch's foreign activities by making sure they comply with existing law.
You know... three equal branches of government that provide checks and balances. That thing we learned in K-12? Yeah, do that.
Courts unjustly convict people.
I guess Presidents should now provide a check and balance on their sketchy record on convictions.
It is fair, right?
Which of those are within the power of the judge to compel the Executive to do?
Hell, all Trump has to do is invite Bukele to Mar-a-Lago for dinner and a round of golf. Bukele would be pleased to become a member of the Trump Sycophant Club.
"Can we send Seal Team Six to get him back? Yes. So it's obviously not "the end of it." (No, I am not saying we should do that.) Can we put 1,000% tariffs on Salvadoran goods until they let him go? Yes. So it's obviously not "the end of it." Can we stop all payments to El Salvador for the holding of hostages at CECOT until they let him go? Yes. So it's obviously not "the end of it." Can we stop all payments of any sort to El Salvador until they let him go? Yes. So it's obviously not "the end of it.""
It is. He's a citizen of El Salvador, and a former illegal alien in the US. Under what authority does SCOTUS or POTUS demand the return of someone who never belonged here, and does belong there? Are you really prepared to engage in military and/or economic sanctions to extort the extradition of a foreign national with a sovereign nation?
Law enforcement broke the law and violated someone's rights under the Constitution. What remedy do you recommend if you don't think "undo what you did" is acceptable?
He had no rights that were violated. He is back at his true home.
Keep moaning for the return of a criminal. ANOTHER 80/20 issue you are on the wrong side of.
He had no rights that were violated.
Big fat lie.
You're playing dumb. Trump is supposed to be trying to retrieve him. Instead, he's strongly signally to the El Salvadorean government that he wants them to keep Garcia.
By all appearances, all Trump needs to do to get him back is sincerely ask. Instead, at the same conference where the El Salvadorean President is saying he'll keep Garcia Trump is telling him to build more prisons to house Americans.
"Trump is supposed to be trying to retrieve him."
Its like Douglas's order to stop the bombing of Cambodia. Too far beyond a court's practical authority to be effective. A wise judiciary would back down like it did then, but lots of Dem district judges are too high on being the Resistance! and SCOTUS won't effectively step in.
No ruling said he is "required to try and retrieve him".
He is abiding by the wording.
Read what was written, not what you wish was written.
"fire whomever had us sign"
You had your chance last November not to hire him. Sufficient numbers of your fellow citizens disagreed.
Trump's power derives from his ability to get all the dumbest people in the US to vote in the same direction for a change.
People who think they want to work in a coal mine.
I say, let them.
I know right? What's a self-respecting White person doing working in a coal mine, waiting tables or cutting grass? That menial shit is for those low-IQ darkies, not us White people.
"all the dumbest people in the US"
Its still all about Deplorables for you.
It is not even true, Kamala Harris likely didn't vote for Trump.
His opponent was Kamala.
The dumbest people in the country did vote in unison.
For her.
The more intelligent ones outnumbered them.
Omg, do you not realize that Trump could have this guy back in the USA in a New York minute?
Your post is just dumb. The contract doesn't matter.
Do you have any evidence the Administration is paying Bukele to incarcerate Salvadorans?
That would seem contrary to Administration, and indeed long standing US policy which requires countries to accept the return of their own citizens.
They announced a contract to pay Salvador to incarcerate Venezuelans.
When rich people shell out $6M for a service, they expect a few extra perks if the provider hopes to see the next $6M. I'm sure Bukele is happy to imprison anyone Trump sends him.
So that's a no.
Why must we work to release an El Salvadoran citizen from an El Salvadoran prison only to deport him somewhere else because he is illegally here? You and the rest of the Leftist chorus really highlight how little you care about the law if you're not manipulating ig to your evil ends.
Unlike the illegal alien gangbanger Garcia, you Professor Post, do not have an outstanding order for deportation by virtue of belonging to an identified terror group, MS-13. The gangbanger did.
You have nothing to fear.
The net here is the illegal alien gangbanger Garcia was deported earlier than otherwise would have been the case. He was going to be deported, no matter what, it was only a question of time.
You are missing the point of Prof. Post's hypothetical question. The Trump administration's theory is that once it has transferred someone to a foreign prison it has no ability to get them back -- whether or not the initial transfer was legal. Under that theory there is no dfiiference between a citizen and a non-citizen, between someone accused of a crime and someone accused of offending Trump, or between someone deliberately imprisioned abroad and someone mistakenly transferred to a foeign prision (because of a case of mistaken identity or otherwise).
XY doesn't think he's at risk of this happening to him so he doesn't care.
He reminds me of Parsons from 1984.
Short-sightedness, thy name is XY. At a minimum, XY is at risk of political power in the U.S, passing into the hands of a government which does not like XY. To that, he can add the risk of administrative error by the Trump administration, or by any subsequent government.
"The Trump administration's theory is that once it has transferred someone to a foreign prison it has no ability to get them back"
No, the administration's theory is that once it has transferred someone to a foreign prison, the actions necessary to guarantee their return fall under the ambit of foreign policy, which the courts have no authority over. So that whether Trump has the ability to accomplish it is irrelevant.
Your spin on Trump's theory puts us in the same place. It is a theory with no imiting principal. If Trump can disappear anyone he choses by shipping them off to a foreign prison and saying the courts have no authority over the question of whether the person in the foreign prison is ever released or returned to the United States, no one is safe. Under either your version of Trump's theory or my iteration of it, once someone is imprisoned abroud it does not matter whether they are a citizen, whether they committed any crime, or whether they were transferred to the foreign prison by mistake -- what happens to them next depends solely on the discrestion of the President and/or the whim of the foerign jailor.
Except that the question isn't "anyone he chooses," it's "illegal aliens".
Aliens to US citizens.
Intentionally missing the point? What if Garcia had been a US citizen and the government made a mistake? The same principles would apply once they're in an El Salvador prison - the judiciary can't interfere in foreign policy and the US can't tell El Salvador what to do.
So now what?
Of course the point of going after unsympathetic types like Garcia in the first place is to gain acceptance for this kind of action.
Question specifically for you, given your handle. Suppose when you were serving you'd been ordered to help deport Garcia - or a US citizen - to an El Salvador prison, and as it happened, to your certain knowledge you were aware that Garcia was under an order not to be deported to El Salvador, or that the deportee was a citizen. And when you raised this with your senior officer or NCO they said, we don't care, yes there may have been a mistake, but these are the orders. Do you obey them?
I recall a previous administration bombing somebody's wedding reception. Killed some Americans overseas, too. I don't recall the justification for that having any limiting principle.
I've been saying for many years that we have been assembling all the pieces of a police state in America, and were just waiting for somebody to pick them up and put them together. And got regularly mocked over it.
If Trump makes people care about that, well, good. Except I suspect most of them will go back to not caring once somebody else is President.
You don't seem to care much, since you're defending this behavior.
The distinction is that Garcia is a Salvadoran citizen subject to the jurisdiction of the Salvadoran government.
If Trump did start deporting US citizens he would be impeached.
The reason the Administration is insisting on deporting every illegal alien is because people like you want to give them the full rights and privileges of US citizens, including the right to vote and government benefits.
"If Trump did start deporting US citizens he would be impeached."
Would he? Do you honestly think you could find enough Republican representatives and senators to make that happen?
I'd hope not.
Just as Biden not actually being in charge of the WH was not enough for Dems to remove him.
To be clear (I mean it's pretty clear already but...) - if Trump did start deporting US citizens, you want him to stay President?
He would because he's a cultist, and what Dear Leader wishes, is good, right, and legal.
If Trump did start deporting US citizens he would be impeached.
No he wouldn't. His toadies in the House and Senate would block any attempt. The House would be enough, actually. Do you seriously believe that GOP representatives have the slightest bit of integrity? That those toadies wouldn't quickly fall in line behind Trump, no matter what?
I think the administration's theory is that once it has transferred a citizen of another country, to that citizen's country, it is no longer in OUR power to force their return. "Return your citizen to us, where he is an illegal alien."
Not a single one of these Leftists crying here would demand a US citizen be sent back to a foreign country that they were illegally in. That would be INSANE! Right?!
Right DAVEs?!
Vinni, you have articulated a possible imiting principal. The Trump adminsitration has not. When this case returns to the Supreme Court, and it will, we will see if Trump retreats from his current, maximalist view of the scope of his power and the limits on judicial authority.
No. The administration's theory is that once it has transferred someone to a foreign prison, that person is no longer in its custody and therefore it has no obligations whatsoever.
Did it say that, or did it say that demanding ES transfer a citizen of ES to the USA, where is not legally allowed to be, was not doable?
To the contrary, I believe I got the point, exactly, ROTM. There is nothing in the law that permits a natural born US citizen (born of legal US citizens or legal US residents) to be exiled from the United States (i.e. deported to El Salvador) or have their US citizenship stripped. Now, I am going out on a limb here, but I am 99.9999% positive that Professor Post is not a member of a designated foreign terrorist group, MS-13. Therefore, Professor Post has absolutely nothing to fear.
The illegal alien gangbanger Garcia was deported in accordance with laws passed by Congress, and/or an Executive Order issued by the POTUS. There was law that directly addressed the issue, namely, Garcia's membership in MS-13, a designated foreign terrorist organization. He was summarily deportable.
I have zero problems deporting foreign MS-13 members back to their home countries. Or if needed, El Salvador or Egypt are alternatives.
You are arguing that there is nothing for Prof. Post to worry about becuase there is no legal basis for deporting him. But the Trump administration is not argung that Abrego Garcia was legaly transferred to a foreign prison. Rather it is arguing that -- even though Abrego Garcia was sent to CECOT as a result of administrative error -- the courts cannot require the executive branch to return him to the US. Under Trump's "no backsies once you are imprisioned abroad" theory, whether there is a legal basis for first sending someone to CECOT becomes irrelevant, once they are there they have no remedy. This theory jeopardizes everyone.
What does that have to do with anything? Do you think U.S. citizens who are members of terrorist groups can be deported?
Why?
Is it simply because you believe that there’s no possibility that the government could make a mistake* like that? And no possibility that they’d do it intentionally? Or does you think Prof. Post would have done judicial recourse if it did happen to him?
*I realize you’re functionally innumerate and your number was made up, but at 99.9999% accuracy, you’d expect hundreds of false positives.
LOL = functionally innumerate. Nice one. Let's add a few more 9's to the right of the decimal point.
There was a deportation order to remove Garcia the gangbanger. No such order is going to happen to Professor Post because the chance is infinitesimally small the govt makes a mistake like that, it would not be done intentionally, and Professor Post would 100% have judicial recourse. Natural born citizens have nothing to fear, they are not deportable. You can incarcerate natural born citizens for life right here in the USA, or execute them.
Illegal aliens, which Garcia was, are deportable. And that is the entire point. If you are an illegal alien, you are subject to deportation (and permanent banishment for failing to register).
This has all the look and feel of an epic troll of the MSM by POTUS Trump, just to stir them up = Look into deporting US citizens to serve time
Why, because he's white?
Why do you think that?
Not according to You People. Once he's out of the country, according to you, courts have no ability to do anything about it.
Which would be… what? What could a court order the executive branch to do that it can’t order with respect to Abrego Garcia.
Except it is 99.9999% unlikely he is a member of MS-13. We have only the unchallenged statement of what seems to be a seriously unreliable person as to that.
But don't let that bother you.
I have zero problems deporting foreign MS-13 members back to their home countries. Or if needed, El Salvador or Egypt are alternatives.
I too have no problems with that. What I do have a giant problem with is doing it because someone somewhere said so, and then not allowing the alleged gang member to challenge that statement.
Do you not get that, or do you not care?
He had the ability to challenge it and he did challenge it. He challenged it in the immigration court and he challenged it in the appeals court. Both courts turned him down. Sorry.
How do you figure, when it was illegal to do so?
Wrong. Deporting him was entirely legal. He even had a previous deportation order. The mistake was deporting him to El Salvador instead of a third country willing to accept him.
Even if he is returned he could be deported again almost immediately to a third country or there could be another hearing involving his asylum claim where it is declared that potential threat if he is returned to El Salvador no longer exists and once again deportation him to El Salvador.
If there were such a place, then Trump would've just done that.
Or they could have held him in indefinite detention since his violation of the law was an ongoing violation.
They said in their declaration to Xinis today, that if he is returned the will deport him to a 3rd country. That or get the deportation hold to El Salvador lifted.
Why didn't they do that in the first place? Could it be that would require due process?
He already had due process in an immigration court, which first OK'd his deportation, then separately said he could not be deported to El Salvador.
Try to keep up.
He never was subject to a deportation order.
Will you shut up about the "gangbanger" business?
There is zero credible evidence to support your claim, and the extremely questionable "evidence" was never challenged.
And as to your main point, who needs a deportation order when you can just grab anyone off the street and send them off with no legal process of any kind. Are you incapable of understanding what happened?
He doesn't care.
Most people aren't humans to him.
But he didn't. He deported a guy with a deportation order and two court rulings designating him a gangbanger.
Could you link to those rulings?
Sealion
No, I think you are mistaken or lying but wanted to be polite about it,
How about Wikipedia as a source:
October 2019 immigration court proceeding
A few months after his marriage, Abrego Garcia applied for asylum and withholding of removal.[26] His request for asylum was denied, as one must submit an asylum application within a year of arriving in the U.S.[2] However, Immigration Judge David M. Jones granted him "withholding of removal" status that would prevent his deportation to a specific country due to the threat that gangs would pose to him, finding that (as NPR put it) "he was more likely than not to be harmed if he was returned to El Salvador."[19][27]"
Now I'm not claiming Wikipedia is definitive, but surely its enough not to be called a liar, when you assert the same fact they do.
So you don't know the background of the case, but still popped up to request a cite? That's a sealion.
It is commonly thought that injunctions do not bind the president in person. Trump probably personally intervened to undermine the court order by asking El Salvador not to cooperate. He can get away with this.
I understand the 2019 decision to be a finding of non-removability by an immigration judge, not an injunction by an Article III judge.
If Trump had ordered federal employees to remove a person in defiance of a District Court order, the people who carried out the order could be charged. If Trump pardoned federal criminal contempt they might be liable for kidnapping and similar crimes under state law. But Trump himself is immune.
"immigration judge"
An subordinate executive branch employee.
That undermines the Constitutionality of Article II judges, which piques my interest.
I'm pretty sure Article II is completely silent on judges.
I'm pretty sure Article II says the executive power, and whatever legislative and judicial power Congress may delegate but not delegate or restrict too much, in the view of the Supreme Court, shall be vested in a President of the United States. Isn't that right?
Aubrey LaVentana, what is an Article II judge?
Its an oxymoron.
I mean technically its an Article 1 created administrative judge created under the Article 2 executive, but certainly in this case I + II ≠ III.
Well, I went out on a limb to suggest Trump may have done something impeachable and defied a 2019 order about the very person who is the subject of this discussion.
But now we're discussing the more recent order to pressure El Salvador, which I doubt could be the basis for impeachment, because they could always say, "well, we tried" and "why are the courts interfering with foreign dipolmacy"?
If there's an ongoing court order finding someone to be a refugee and banning him being returned to his county, and then Trump returns the guy to his country contrary to orders, that would be a serious case of misbehavior by Trump. So what is going on?
Impeachment is ultimately a political decision not tied to precise interpretations of laws and orders. Trump has provided plenty of reasons to put on the paperwork. There are not nearly enough votes to remove him from office.
The Supreme Court doesn't have the votes to make certain correct decisions, either.
But we can still assess the Senate, like the Supreme Court, from the standpoint of what it *ought* to do, not what silliness it actually does.
The 2019 court order came from an Article II judge.
How can a judge whose subservient to the Executive command and order the Executive in any fashion?
Such is the logic of the administrative state.
"snatching anyone off the street whom they don't particularly care for for one reason or another - me, for instance"
I already agree with his immigration policies, you don't need to convince me.
I know right? I keep reporting various commenters to DOGE, but they're still here commenting.
What is going on? Won't someone clean up the hive of villainy and restore the comment section to it's previous respectful state?
If you really believe this you’d call ICE on him now. Hell call them on me. I’ll give you an address for pickup.
I'm going to call ICE on you. Collect some Patriot Bucks in the process.
Do it. If you want the entire country to turn on your admin, call ICE on a citizen who made you mad online.
Well, you didn't make me mad. I'd have to care what you thought for that to happen.
I'm reporting you to ICE and DOGE out of a sense of duty and patriotism. Plus I can earn 200 Patriot Bucks if they nab you and send you to CECOT. Money well earned.
Look out "SWATing" ... here comes "ICEing!"
Well, I may have caught some of the hysteria.
The "court" from 2019 may have only been a DoJ employee, a hearing officer who, by an unfortunate convention, is called a "judge." I thought it meant federal district court judge, an Art. III judge - you know, an actual *judge.*
Damnit, you are reexamining your understanding of the facts again.
I don't think that's allowed.
The narrative uber alles.
However I will say that the original determination that Garcia was an MS-13 member was also by an Article 2 judge, but I think that is by statute entitled to deference by Article 3 courts.
"A 2019 court order"
Well, it didn't really count, you see, though if a simple peasant, that is, a regular person, didn't follow it, well, they can't handwave it as "not a real court." That would be silly.
Let's see, I thought a federal district judge, under Art. III, had issued an order prohibiting the return of this specific person to El Salvador based on human-rights concerns. It sounded like the stuff of impeachment - federal courts have jurisdiction in human-rights cases (with exceptions irrelevant to the present dispute), and the separation of powers must be defended.
But now let's get back to first principles, never mind the hearing-officer red herring, as I now know it to be. What was the *initial* justification for the 2025 deportation, before the "oops"? It wasn't the Alien Enemies Act, that's being done with Venezuela.
Immigration judges (Art. III is not the only place by law where "judges" are) count. Their orders count. He had a legal right arising from the order. Breaking it counts.
His case is discussed here:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.578815/gov.uscourts.mdd.578815.11.3_2.pdf
Yeah, fair enough, but I was gung-ho for impeaching Trump when I thought he'd defied a human-rights order by an Art. III court.
I went from dubious about impeachment to supporting impeachmment, to being dubious again. From your perspective, that's wrong because I should have supported impeachment since 2015. Maybe you think I ought to be all impeachment, all the time, not hung up over specifics.
"From your perspective, that's wrong because I should have supported impeachment since 2015."
I didn't say that, but don't let that stop you.
Poe's law, I guess.
I don't think the IJ's act counts as an order. The IJ is a subordinate of the Attorney General exercising delegated authority. According to 8 USC 1231(b)(3)(A) the Attorney General may not remove an alien to a country if the Attorney General "decides" it is unsafe for specified reasons to do so. An IJ made that decision on behalf of the Attorney General. The right not to be removed following that decision is statutory.
Bondi, through her agents, violated 18 USC 1231(b)(3)(A) rather than a court order. Which is probably not actionable after the fact unless the Supreme Court is inclined to expand Bivens.
"An IJ made that decision on behalf of the Attorney General. The right not to be removed following that decision is statutory."
OK, *arguably* that would would at least allow Bondi to be impeached, or even the Pres, depending on what he knew and when he knew it.
If Bondi knew that would be grounds for impeachment. I am prepared to believe that the government's computer system is so badly designed that it does not flag an attempt to put a person on a flight to an ineligible destination.
If there is such a risk, before people are sent to dangerous prisons in foreign countries where it is so hard to get them back, in violation of whatever you want to call it, there should be a careful process in place.
All this impeachment talk is rather academic, especially given what is going on. There are other safeguards in place.
Academic or not (I only need to persuade myself, after all), I'd be willing to say that if the DoJ has ruled a migrant protected, and then changes its mind without due process or opportunity for judicial review, that would be impeachable, and how high it reached would depend on who knew what and when.
" According to 8 USC 1231(b)(3)(A) the Attorney General may not remove an alien to a country if the Attorney General 'decides' it is unsafe for specified reasons to do so. "
Are the decisions of one AG binding on a subsequent AG?
Can AG Bondi publish a memo stating "I hereby revoke the prior AG's decision, and find that Garcia's safety in El Salvador is not at risk"?
There is a process to be followed. Under current laws and regulations judicial review is available after administrative hearings.
The IJ's order must be upheld at all costs but his finding that “the
evidence show[ed] that he is a verified member of [Mara Salvatrucha] (‘MS-13’)]” can be totally disregarded. Convenient!
There are four reasons why a person can be deported despite a finding that he would be in danger.
See 18 USC 1231(b)(3)(B). Gang membership on its own is not sufficient grounds.
It's an Article II immigration court.
HTH
Congress doesn't have authority to create Article 2 courts.
Article 3:
"The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain"
If Congress is going to create an inferior court it has to be under Article 3.
Article 2 judges do not have Article 3 power to issue injunctions, or exercise other article 3 powers.
I think what makes this case so maddening to libs and those who yap about "the rule of law," when they mean "the rule of liberal judges" is that everyone knows that Trump could get this guy back here tomorrow morning if he just asked. But he's not going to do that. He's going to let the courts twist in the wind with all the accompanying bleats about a "constitutional crisis." Waaah. Where were all you rule of law types when the federal courts, often with the acquiescence of the Supreme Court, were thwarting capital punishment in this country? See, e.g., Maples v. Alabama. Turnabout is fair play.
The courts are lucky that Trump isn't even more in your face about this. Boasberg's view that the Trump Administration beat him to the punch equals bad faith is such an absolute joke.
Maples v Thomas? The 7-2 scotus decision with an Alito concurrence that held that actual abandonment by assigned counsel constitutes good cause to excuse procedural default in habeas proceedings? That’s your turnabout is fair play example?
Amazing, isn't it?
These people want "others" dead by any means necessary.
In habeas, a petitioner's attorney negligence is chargeable to the petitioner not the state. See Coleman. The Court in Maples held that the attorney negligence (a failed handoff and local counsel not doing its job) constituted abandonment, which theretofore had a degree of willfulness and indifference, neither of which was present in this case. In other words, to save an obviously guilty capital murderer, the Court twisted the meaning of words and sunk to intellectual dishonesty. Victims' families deserve better, as did the state. And intellectual dishonesty is the exact opposite of the "rule of law." The federal judiciary gets what it deserves in this case.
So because the Court (including Alito of all people) reached a decision you dislike in a case about procedural default 13 years ago you think Trump should ignore court orders? Is that your logic here?
Maples is but one of a long list of BS federal habeas decisions that have thwarted the death penalty in a completely lawless matter. It's high time, federal courts got some comeuppance. And the "well, TFB" is the same litigation position that the Obama Admin told secured creditors when they appealed the BK order that screwed them.
I don't care if the federal judiciary gets humiliated here.
So you disagree with the court’s death penalty jurisprudence so Trump can just ignore laws? That’s your logic?
Argh, well, I do disagree with the Courts DP jurisprudence, but what I am talking about is how AEDPA gets blown off, how the courts issue last-minute stays in response to last-minute filings etc. etc. The federal courts have turned death penalty litigation into a crazy slog. Their arrogance begs for a comeuppance.
And the comeuppance is by Trump ignoring court orders and sending people to foreign torture camps without due process? Because you disagree with how SCOTUS deals with AEDPA? Is that your position?
Yep. The federal courts have gotten way too big for their britches. (The Plata decision is yet another example.) Time for them to get a comeuppance. CECOT is just a SuperMax.
Well that’s dumb as shit. And you wouldn’t ever try and defend someone facing a show cause order with this “logic.”
It’d be as dumb as me encouraging people to violate state trial court orders so they can get their comeuppance for continuing to use the open-and-obvious rule in a comparative fault jurisdiction.
LTG, you are truly stupid. Trump is artfully defying the courts, which I think is good for them. Courts have a lot of power, and you can't really defy them unless you have a lot of power, like a president. So I would not advise people to ignore a show cause order, even one issued in a completely lawless manner. For example, some woman (non-party), in an email conversation with a litigant called the judge an idiot. Judge issued a show cause order. Personally, I think that this sort of order can be resisted (Second Amendment remedies), but that's not what is prudent, to say the least.
Personally, I think that this sort of order can be resisted (Second Amendment remedies).
…you think that the second amendment authorizes you to murder a judge who issued an illegal show cause order?
When there's an obviously bogus show-cause order---that's basically a threat of armed kidnapping by the state. Are you saying that people shouldn't have the right to prevent being haled into court to contest a show cause order given merely because they called the judge an idiot? Is that what you're saying?
Yeah I’m saying you can’t murder a judge for an illegal order. Why are you asking me this like I’m the crazy one? Are you sure you’re a lawyer? You sound more like a sovereign citizen at this point.
The plain import of what you are saying is that, notwithstanding the First Amendment, a citizen can be taken off the street because he or she called a judge an idiot. That's fine--but you should own it. And of course, once pulled off the street, the judge can throw you in jail. So basically you think judges should have the power of Trump, and people are powerless to resist.
Just own it. You can say that as a society we just can't have people defending themselves like that etc. etc., but own the tyranny that it is.
Hahaha what? Has rloquitur claimed to be a lawyer?
Wasn’t he the guy who was bragging that his law review note was so ground-breaking in its fierce criticism of that a state supreme court justice’s judicial assistant tried to intimidate him or something?
“Hahaha what? Has rloquitur claimed to be a lawyer?”
In an exchange with me many months ago, this individual claimed to have “BigLaw experience.” Make of that what you will.
LTG, yes, that is dimly ringing a bell. I must also edit my previous comment: upon reflection I think they said “BigLaw training” not “experience”.
LTG: you're talking to a commenter who has been spending the past few weeks digging up possible miscarriages of justice from the 13th century, attacking people for not criticizing them, and then arguing that therefore this justifies Trump murdering political opponents for fun in the name of turnabout.
Just pointing out that if you all really cared about "rights" etc., then you would have called out your own team. Instead, you realize that illegals are on your team, and you expect us to care. Nope.
When they came for Vechirko, you were nowhere to be found, and you voted to make one of the assholes persecuting him VP.
Wait. I should have called out “my team” (which includes Alito?!?) for siding with Cory Maples 14 years ago in order to criticize lawlessly sending people to foreign detention camps without process and ignoring orders to get them back?
Where were you when Becerra was threatening journos, when Walz was persecuting Vechriko and when the federal courts were abusing their habeas power? That's the point. I don't care about your team, and I sure as shit don't care about some arrogant federal judge who doesn't understand the practical limitations of her power.
I had no idea what corner of the MAGA Cinematic Universe that came from, and googled it, and found rloquitur trolling under one of his other handles on a different website and utterly unable to articulate any "persecution," let alone by Walz.
Ah, DN, Walz got ahead of himself and criticized the guy and said that he was lucky that he only got a minor beating. So then the DFL thugs had to get something on him, and dutifully they did. Walz could have come out and said that he was mistaken and that the guy was put in a spot where he had to act quickly to save lives, but he did.
So fuck off, you pathetic fascist.
That was quite a read.
"Persecution."
And note that the only thing SCOTUS even did was allow for an untimely filing! It didn't substantively rule in Maples' favor.
It prolonged the victims' suffering and treated the state of Alabama very poorly. And that's one example.
Did it hurt the state of Alabama's feelings?
Doesn't matter.
Cry Harder. It is not lost on us that liberals jailed without due process many patriots. So why should any of us be upset that illegal--NOT US CITIZENS--gang members are kept out of this country?
We shouldn't be. No amount of bending the facts will help your case. He could have been deported to any other country, according to your own side's brief. So, even you own side doesn't buy your BS. They just wanted to win on small technicalities.
Which patriots were denied due process and how were they denied it?
all of them, in multiple ways
Which ways precisely?
Ashli Babbitt, by murdering her, for one
Okay. And so what distinguishes her case from other police shootings that were found to be justified such that she was denied her rights?
I'll continue your line of stupid questioning, what do you think? (Idiot)
Aren’t these the questions the judge would ask if she sued the capitol police? And wouldn’t it be your burden to demonstrate how her shooting wasn’t justified?
"if she sued the capitol police"
Fortunately, she was killed.
There’s this thing called an estate which can be substituted for the deceased party. Perhaps you’ve heard of it?
"There’s this thing called an estate "
You said "she" sued. If you meant her estate, you should have said so.
"substituted for the deceased party"
Substitution is when a party dies after litigation starts.
Is your legal writing always this sloppy?
Weren’t you just complaining about Nieporent being an annoying pedant?
“Is your legal writing always this sloppy?”
Nope. Actually, it’s quite good. I save my best efforts for intelligent readers. Also judges.
Bivins is dead too.
Ashli Babbitt wasn't murdered, Frank.
It is not lost on us that liberals jailed without due process many patriots.
They had hearings and trials. So what is lost on you are the facts.
Being a J6 rioter doesn't make you a patriot. Far from it.
The process is the punishment--just ask Daniel Penny.
Daniel Penny killed someone. I think asking a jury to decide whether that killing was excused or justified is the least one can do.
Ted Kennedy killed someone, why didn't a Jury get to decide whether that killing was excused or justified? I mean besides he was Ted Kennedy.
"Ted Kennedy killed someone, why didn't a Jury get to decide whether that killing was excused or justified? I mean besides he was Ted Kennedy."
Because Ted Kennedy was never charged with any homicide offense, even though his conduct was inexcusable (and reprehensible). The state prosecutor dropped the ball. If you claim that he should have been charged, you will get no argument from me.
I don't know what homicide statutes were in force in Massachusetts in 1969. Under the model jury instructions promulgated in 2018, (https://www.mass.gov/info-details/model-jury-instructions-on-homicide-vii-involuntary-manslaughter) Kennedy's failure to summon help after the crash easily fits involuntary manslaughter through wanton or reckless conduct while operating a motor vehicle, which is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not less than 5 years and not more than 20 years, and by a fine of not more than $25,000. https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter265/Section13%201~2
You are a big fucking idiot. And a fascist (a believer in the monopoly on use of force). Penny was privileged to use physical force to stop the subway miscreant. Once the two grappled, he was privileged to use force to ensure his safety.
Given that self-defense is a natural right, unfounded prosecutions are an infringement of that right. And so if a rape victim killed her attacker, you'd say that a jury gets to put her away merely because she killed someone. You're a fascist douchebag.
“And a fascist (a believer in the monopoly on use of force).”
This is the absolute worst political theory I’ve ever seen. It makes Brett’s definition of fascism seem brilliant.
One of the hallmarks of fascism is that some people (in alignment with the state) get to use force, while others don't.
No. That’s the definition of the modern state as described by Max Weber. Every state everywhere claims the monopoly on the legitimate use of force.
Fascism by contrast is an ideology or mode of politics applies to comparatively few movements and polities. While the definition of fascism is hotly contested among actual historians and political theorists I think Roger Griffin’s definition of “a political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultra-nationalism” gets closest to the mark.
Nazi Germany was a pretty good exemplar, and look what it did--self-defense for me, but not for thee. The point, hopefully not lost on you, is that the Penny murder trial was a real fucking problem from a freedom standpoint. Bragg should spend the rest of his fucking life in jail for it.
And fascism is an economic system also.
Nazi Germany is a good example of a state whose dominant ideology had paligenentic ultranationalism as its mythic core.
It was one of the many states that claims a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. And indeed, self-defense law, is part of the legitimation.
But because facts aren’t always known immediately, the US, like other liberal societies, uses an open judicial process to determine whether the use of force in self defense was justified i.e. legitimate.
Also fascism is not “an economic system” although it is often characterized by an opposition to communism and a belief in autarky.
Well, we will just have to disagree. Any government that embraces fascism is going to have serious control over the means of production. There's an argument that Japan was seriously committed to trade until undone by US tariffs/embargoes. But whatever, pretty obvious that autarky is going to be used as a justification for conquest--given the need of a fascist government to "be in control." If you conquer areas with resources, then you don't have to worry about other powers using those resources as leverage.
I look at fascism is a nationalistic/ethnocentric system where power is concentrated and then outsourced in exchange for loyalty and support of government policies.
That is in fact what the trial existed to determine.
Say what you will of those Old Testament goat-herders, at least they knew that bearing false witness against your neighbor was wrong.
Nowadays, we consider ourselves more sophisticated, and if we have a high-profile government job we assume we can call people murderers, even falsely, simply to let the process play itself out.
And by the way, I hope that you are put in a position where you need to use force to defend yourself in some ruby red county, and it happens to be the local judge's son, and you get prosecuted to the hilt.
So kind of you to say so! Remind me why you're saying it?
I was looking at some of your other comments on this thread, seeking to be able to place you on the political spectrum. You seem a bit closer to Trumpism than I am, so I would imagine that you are criticizing me, somehow, from a MAGA direction. Beyond that I can't guess what you're going on about.
I mean, he did kill the guy. Nobody plucked him out of nowhere like Abrego Garcia.
And if killing a guy was in and of itself a crime in all circumstances, you'd have a point.
It's kind of presumptively a crime. It could be justified, if a jury thought so. Which the jury did.
I read once that self-defense *used* to be an affirmative defense, but I thought that today, the lack of self-defense is more like an element of the crime, to be proven.
But go ahead and prosecute all women, regardless of guilt, who kill men in the act of raping them, and of course all police snipers and concerned citizens who kill deranged shooters. Etc.
There was video. And IIRC, the prosecution conceded that the initial use of force was ok.
This is a good reminder that Trump is a dumbass and not in any way playing 4D Chess.
By refusing to make any effort to correct their mistake here and basically throwing up their hands and saying "once we make an oopsie we can't do anything to fix it", the administration is ensuring that courts are going to be much less likely to approve of schemes that basically take the form of "just trust us, we're moving quickly and we can fix any problems later if we get it wrong". The Supreme Court has already ruled that future deportations under the AEA are going to require some sort of hearing, and Trump is just making it so the courts are going to have a high bar to make sure the decisions are made correctly in the first place.
So sure, Trump gets to stick it to one guy and now his goal of mass deportations gets slowed down considerably. Great work by the very stable genius.
jb, check this one out:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/19-251_p86b.pdf
Note how the libs basically say that the state can continue leaking like a sieve, and it's just TFB.
"Basically!"
That's the clear import, dipshit. So fuck off. You're good with a fascist state continuing to leak (wink wink nod nod). Based on your posts, you should be appalled by the libs' opinions here. But you're not. Fucking hypocrite.
Cool non sequiter bro.
You guys act like this is some novel Trump thing. Y'all been doing this crap for a while.
Let's recap the conversation!
me: This is going to be counterproductive to Trump's goal of deporting a bunch of people
you: (charitably interpreted) Look at this case where the dissenting liberals would have let California dox their political enemies!
me: that has nothing to do with my argument
you: I really hate liberals!
Fun
Welcome to fascist America.
It's soooo much better than faggot America which is what we had under Biden/Obama.
I've lived in fascist America all my life. Welcome to the chief fascist not being your guy anymore.
From invasion to fascist to VERY IMPORTANT PRONOUNS, Brett has fun with words.
Oh yes, deporting an alien is fascist.
what prevents it from snatching anyone off the street whom they don't particularly care for for one reason or another
Presumably anyone involved (with the possible exception of the president) can be charged with kidnapping, and sued civilly.
Surprise! You can't sue federal employees unless your name is Webster Bivens. And of course who is going to charge them with kidnapping? The same guy who ordered it in the first place?
Just ask your buddy "Judge" Summerville to order a state prosecution.
But that's not a problem unique to this situation. Obama and Biden, for example, were never going to charge their subordinates with perjury before Congress.
Pretty Race-ist for the Gringos to tell El Salvador what to do with their own Citizens.
Abrego Garcia and his family (his father is a former police officer) were harassed by gangs. The gang threatened to rape his sisters and mother. They extorted money from them. The father's former connection to the police helped suggest to them that the police were too corrupt to be much of a help.
The family eventually left the country and went to Guatemala. His brother came to the U.S. and eventually became a U.S. citizen. Abrego emigrated here and was raising a family (all citizens) with his (citizen) wife, not getting in trouble with the law except regarding entering illegally in concern for his life.
An immigration judge (upheld on appeal) ultimately determined sending him back to El Salvador would threaten his well-being.
The "proof" for his gang involvement was weak.
His "threat" to this country's well-being after being peacefully here, raising a family (all the children with special needs) for six years, is also rather weakly shown.
Not that even someone more dangerous should be treated without due process. But the background here rankles further.
Gangster threatened by gangs, some of them rivals, others his own to get him to perform.
In other news, water is wet.
And beer tastes good!
Does it really? would you drink it without the Alcohol? (I wouldn't)
You have little to no proof of most of those assertions. Just naked attempted emotional blackmail.
Emotional blackmail: it’s really unfair for you to try and make to feel bad about bad things happening to someone else.
Also LOL at the idea that you can even be emotionally blackmailed.
"LOL at the idea that you can even be emotionally blackmailed."
On this we agree!
But Joe's comment was not just for my edification. Its an argument meant merely to elicit sympathy, or in other words, emotionally blackmail people into agreement.
Yeah how dare people feel sympathy for others. That wouldn’t affect you of course, because you’re a bad person.
Laken Riley couldn't be reached for comment.
Get it right! it's "Lincoln Riley" and she was killed by an "Illegal" but how many people are killed by "Legals"?!?!?!?
See on the News Sleepy Joe's going to give his first speech since leaving the White House, wonder if he realizes he's left the White House?
"Laken Riley couldn't be reached for comment."
LTG, likemost of his kind here, only have empathy regarding illegals. If you mention Laken Riley or any other victim of an illegal, its all "immigrants commit fewer crimes than citizens", like that just excuses a murder.
“LTG, likemost of his kind here, only have empathy regarding illegals.”
Why do you continue to lie about this when it’s not true?
Like does it make you feel better about my criticisms of you to pretend I believe something I don’t? I’ve actually worked with crime victims and seen and felt their pain. Have you? How the fuck do you know that my empathy only extends to “illegals.”
Sleepy Joe couldn't even get her name right, and then said it was OK she was killed by an Ill-legal, because "Legals" kill people too.
And that wasn't him babbling on the way to the Ice Cream Parlor, it was his State of the Onion speech.
Frank
I heard Linkin Riley was a Palestine-supporting gang member. Prove me wrong.
You're a sick dude.
You're a fragile weirdo.
Poor hayseeds. Can dish the conspiracy...can't take the conspiracy. It's like shooting up a preschool of angry fish in a barrel when hobie gets all up in this bitch
"not getting in trouble with the law except regarding entering illegally in concern for his life. "
I'm puzzled. He's apparently in fear of his life in El Salvador. But you say that the family first moved to Guatemala. How, then, did he enter the US to escape El Salvador? Why couldn't he have just stayed in Guatemala?
For that matter, why not head over to Belize? Honduras? Maybe Mexico? The US doesn't border on El Salvador, after all.
OK, the US is nicer than all of those, which is reason enough to have applied for an immigration visa, but he just entered illegally, and what's his excuse? That he wasn't safe in El Salvador, which he wasn't living in?
As I like to say, if your house burns down and you walk to the Motel 6, you're a refugee. If you walk past the Motel 6 to arrive at the Marriott? You're just a guy looking for a hotel room.
He was just a guy looking for a hotel room, his sob story means nothing.
Now, he may have a fair beef about being shipped to El Salvador, rather than Guatemala. I find myself wondering: Was he legally in Guatemala? Could we resolve this by having him sent there?
Because the gang was also present there (it's next door) and he still wasn't safe.
But all of your usual "They should've gotten asylum somewhere else" argument against refugees (even though you claim to only be against illegal immigration) misses the point, since he doesn't have refugee status here. What he has is a finding and order that under US law he can't be sent to El Salvador.
The gang is more present HERE than is ES. Bukele has done a remarkable job dealing with them.
That’s true!
So what?
Arguing he cannot be sent home due to the fear of a gang that is in much greater numbers in the "safe" place he was illegally in is patently absurd. I do not wish to insult the retarded by calling it retarded.
If an alien can not be sent to his home country, a country where he lived, or a country where he was born, the Attorney General can send him to any country that will take him.
Love how "IANAL" Stephen Miller had to explain to all you Lawyers, like you were small children, what the Surpreme Court said.
The problem here is CJ Roberts' order punting this case where it was vaguely worded enough to get nine votes. Now you have the parties fighting over what "facilitate" means with Trump taking a narrow position and the court taking a broad issue.
Everyone seems to say that the words are clear. "Facilitate" has a wide variety of meanings from simply taking some minimal step and going to the ends of the earth. It's not surprising then that there will be a dispute about it. But it won't stop the Trump haters from gleaning a clear message from it.
Example: If I am ordered to facilitate my brother's visit to my home that can mean anything from answering the door when he knocks to paying for his cross country airfare and travel from the airport. Why in this case MUST it be the latter?
Yes, that and the fact that the Administration is spoiling for a fight.
So are the ACLU and lower courts.
Not a fight that they are going to win.
[Stolen from twitter]
If you haven't been following the El Salvador deportation case, let me bring you up to speed:
Judge: Hey Trump, you can't deport that guy to El Salvador.
Trump: Yeah. Well. I did.
Judge: Well now you have to bring him back.
Trump: No can do compadre. He's under El Salvador control. I have no power there.
Judge: You at least to have to TRY.
Trump: That's fine. The El Salvador President is at my house right now.
Judge: And?
Trump: I asked him.
Judge: AND?
Trump: He said no.
Judge: Did you really ask him?
Trump: Lol no.
Judge: Lol.
Facilitate has a fixed definition per ICE rules and there is a memo about it. They have to "allow" it, if he is able to get here. Biondi has already offered a plane.
Here's the thing about this circumlocuitous attempt to avoid criticizing Trump. Judge Xinis expressly ordered the administration — after SCOTUS's order — to file an affidavit by someone with personal knowledge stating what steps the government had taken to facilitate his release, as well as what steps they would be taking going forward. If there were any genuine confusion — there's not — then when the administration filed an affidavit saying, "We did X and Y, and we're going to do A and B," then the parties could've discussed whether X, Y, A and B were sufficient to comply with the facilitate order, thus eliminating any supposed misunderstanding. The judge could've said, "Great, keep me updated" or "You need to do more," or whatever. But the administration has contemptuously defied the court's order to provide that information.
Isn't the correct word, "contumacious?"
I actually agree with you. Trump is engaging in defiance/non-defiance. He's saying that there's nothing I can do--Bukele told me no, and you don't have the power to order me to get him to change his mind.
Everyone knows this is kabuki theater, and that's the beauty of it.
Torture is just oh so pretty!
It is, like it or not, not our concern.
Actually it is our concern because we’re a ratified signatory to UNCAT and there are statutory and regulatory implementations of that treaty.
CECOT, thy name is not UNCAT. DJT.
Where is the proof of torture? I see none.
Jeremiah 5:21
And a government requiring people to hand over confidential info, only to selectively leak on a political basis is A-ok. Go fuck yourself.
Which plays directly to Post's original point: what's to prevent Trump from doing the same thing to a legal resident or citizen?
As they should have. She has zero right to any information of international negotiations.
SCOTUS ordered the judge to clarify his order not make Trump blink first and see how far he can push him:
"The District Court should clarify its directive, with due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs."
It is an impossibility for Trump to answer the court's question without the needed clarification as required by SCOTUS.
SCOTUS ordered a clarification on "effectuate," not "facilitate."
Trump has yet to answer anything (in court, leaving aside Bondi's plane offer) with regard to facilitate. He even hasn't requested clarification or offered his own definition. It's been radio silence so far.
Garcia is not coming back.
The more interesting question: can he sue for civil rights violations?
They aren't allowed visitors and civil rights in the country were suspected in 2022.
It was an extremely edifying spectacle.
Trump has learned that if he wants to dissappear Hillary Clinton, Liz Cheney, Chris Krebs, or any other of this country’s many many other “homegrown criminals” into an El Salvadoran gulag, he can simply tell the courts that ICE made a mistake. When the administration’s lawyers know they have no plausible justification, they can just say “we made a mistake” and that’s that.
It’s extremely edifying.
Hillary in CECOT--I'd pay to see that!! I am sure that Bill would too.
If somebody important gets removed the system will work harder and Congress will grumble louder.
I don't think people would much care about Hillary. I mean seriously that woman makes John Edwards likeable.
As to Professor Post’s question, the whole point is to demonstrate that absolutely nothing, nothing whatsover, prevents it. The secret police and the network of concentration camps are now live, and all nice and legal. The test case successfully passed.
That is, I’m suggesting that the administration deliberately, intentionally picked someone they knew they had no pretense of a legitimate basis for arresting and spiriting away just to test their ability to successfully get away with it. This “we made a mistake” bullshit was just a test formula to see how they could get it past the courts. And they could.
Expect many more to follow.
Us too. We shall meet again in the place where there is no darkness.
You must respect mah authoritay . . . .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XbebjUYItKw
He had an active and valid deportation order.
It's another case of Schrondinger's Trump!
50% Trump is playing 4D Chess
50% Trump is too stupid to play 4D Chess
What is Trump? Well he's both!! He's playing 4D Chess and he's incapable of playing 4D Chess! AT THE SAME TIME!!
Liberals are so smart.
Yom HaShoah is April 24th this year.
After polling the justices as to Sr. Garcia:
Thomas-Alito, dissenting in part: "We are prepared to continue dancing angels on the head of a pin for the eternal amusement of Leonard Leo."
Gorsuch, concurring in part: "I concur with Thomas-Alito except as to the parts about angels, a pin and Leonard Leo."
Kavanaugh, dissenting in part: "What would Jesse Helms do?"
Barrett, concurring: "I write separately to say that I'm pretty sure the administration is wrong here based on my 1L Conlaw textbook."
Sotomayor-Kagan-Jackson, concurring: "We're surrounded by six idiots."
Alito-Thomas-Gorsuch, concurring: "We concur with S-K-J with respect to the number six."
Roberts, CJ: "I am reminded of the Korematsu case, one of the finest moments in our court's history, and some day our decision here will be equally as notable. Remanded per curiam to the District Court for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion."
You win the thread.
That's good, but he would, ala Trump v. Hawaii, at least pretend to find Korematsu bad.
Also, Thomas/Alito would say something like: "We want to give Trump whatever power he wants, but your way will allow him to do so anyway, probably, so okay, we won't dissent openly."
Neither Jackson nor the "wise [sic] Latina" have any business calling anyone an idiot.
And Kagan is a disloyal bitch who pissed all over military members. She can go to hell.
What 20-year old grudge are you referring to now?
Kagan's treatment of military recruiters at Harvard was a disgrace, and she's a disloyal bitch for having done so. Classic kiss up, kick down behavior. She's not fit for polite company.
If you think that's bad, you should see what "DOGE" is doing to the VA.
I think it matters more how the US government treats its veterans than how university's facilitate making more of them.
What "treatment," and "disloyal" to whom?
Bottom line. Trump Administration asks for his return, El Salvador government says No. There are many things that the Administration can do, from invading El Salvador, to cancelling the prison contract, to diplomatic pressure. Which, if any, can a district judge order the Administration to do?
This is really the endgame here. We have the muscle to push around El Salvador. But Trump doesn't want too.
How much power does a district court judge have to make the President force El Salvador to return him? Can it order a nuclear strike? Can it order that he ask nicely?
Neither, IMHO, because a district court should not be involved in foreign policy. This is not uncharted territory where we are hanging on the edge of an abyss.
The whole point of Gitmo and CIA black sites were to get people away from the power of judges to order their release. You've got people held in Gitmo for nearly 25 with no charges and no judges clamoring to order their release. This is old news--except that illegal alien terrorists are high on the left's political favorites list so they are pretending that they are shocked over this.
This is not Hillary Clinton or a political enemy. It is an MS-13 illegal alien.
Barring evidence which hasn't been provided to court, Garcia was not and is not a member of MS-13.
This may come as a shock, but most undocumented immigrants from South of our border are not members of any gang. Even the ones with tattoos.
Prior court hearings say otherwise.
Take up your beef with them.
Or should we ignore what THOSE courts said because you do not agree with them?
Bottom line. This isn't about foreign policy, and it isn't about the district court claiming authority over foreign policy (which it hasn't).
Bottom line. This is about the administration testing out a method to avoid domestic due process guarantees.
So you have no answer to my question and just stamp your feet. El Salvador is not subject to the jurisdiction of any US court. So what can a US court order the president to do if El Salvador refuses?
Your question was insincere and repetitive. The court hasn't, AFAIK, claimed authority to order foreign policy actions, but you're trying to mislead people into thinking it has through repeated asking.
David Post outlined very clearly what the real question is: What part of your noxious argument doesn't apply to US citizens?
You're right---the court hasn't explicitly done that--it's just hoping against hope that Trump will get it done. This is why you have the Trump kabuki theater with Bukele. Trump is picking a fight the judiciary cannot win.
Yes, which is the whole "constitutional crisis" part of Post's article. Trump is either on his way to crossing that line or has already crossed it.
Always funny watching you lefties ignore everything on one side of the ledger to hyper focus on the most idiotic points. Why should the US Government facilitate the violation of US law by foreign nationals? Sure, he maybe should have been dropped off in another country but El Salvador has changed in the last few years.
To determine what the Trump Administration properly can be required to do to facilitate a prisoner's return from El Salvador, the courts ulitmately are going to have to review the US/El Salvador prison contract. If, hypothetically, that contract has a "return provision" requiring El Salvador to transfer any prisoner back to US soil upon receipt of a written notice directing it to do so, a court could order the Trump administration to send out a formal notice in accordance with the contract's return provision.
If we reach a point where the adminsitration has sought a prisoner's return in the ways contemplated by the contract, and El Salvador is still refuisning to release the prisoner, there may be some hard questions about what else the courts can do. But we are not there yet.
Reasonable. The Court can order the Administration to invoke the US's rights under any agreement with El Salvador. Beyond that, who knows.
I don't think it can even do that.
Ordering a president to act on a provision in a bilateral agreement with a foreign country is about and as executive decision as one can make. What if Trump believes that political capital should not be expended by asking for enforcement of the provision?
What other bilateral, multinational, or other treaties can a district court judge simply order to be executed by a president?
Geez. I thought we were on about democracy being in danger not too long ago. Now the left wants unelected judges making foreign policy.
Not sure I agree. If the same person was being held in a federal prison, there is no doubt that a district court could order his release under habeas corpus. Even though releasing a prisoner is an executive decision.
By entering into a prison agreement with another country, the Administration has in effect made it an agent of the U.S. government. The same as a court can order the Bureau of Prisons to release John Doe from a US prison, it can order the Administration to request a release of John Doe from El Salvador.
The interesting part becomes what happens if El Salvador says NO.
"The same as a court can order the Bureau of Prisons to release John Doe from a US prison, it can order the Administration to request a release of John Doe from El Salvador."
The stark differences in the two parts of your sentence show why I think it is much different. If an American was arrested in the UK, for example, and lets say for something that we wouldn't consider a crime like gun possession or hate speech, could a court really order the present to request a release? Isn't that right in the bailiwick of foreign policy?
You might say "no" because we don't have a so called contract with the UK prison system. But why is it different. This agreement with El Salvador implicates foreign policy concerns nonetheless. El Salvador might not like losing the money that would come with having to release people that the courts order released and cancel our deal.
And it seems that El Salvador has already said "no." Must the executive ask for something to which he has already received an answer? Should playing the video of him saying "no" end the case?
WV, under your theory, so long as a President contracts with a foreign country to hold prisoners in a jail on its teritory, the President has carte balnche to disapper anyone he can sieze and transport to the foreign prison. The courts are not going to endorse a rule under which no judicial remedies are avilable to anyone whose incarceration the President can outsource to a contractor operating a foreign jail.
You'll need to argue that the Executive, having signed a contract with a return provision and under order by the court (with concurrence from the USSC) to "facilitate" the return of a prisoner, hasn't violated a court order by not exercising it's own return provision.
Do I have any confidence that the Trump administration would give themselves a return provision? No. Zero. None. That would defeat the purpose of this whole exercise which is to do an end run around the US judicial system and deport people (legal, illegal, criminal, non-criminal, doesn't matter) as quickly as he can for as long as he can until it threatens to impact mid-term elections.
El Salvador government says No
This is pretext.
Quit being a MAGA tool.
You say it is pretext. Bukele says Garcia the gangbanger is a terrorist, by virtue of his membership in MS-13.
The country is safer without the illegal alien gangbanger Garcia in it.
Bukele also says he's the "coolest dictator."
But there is no membership in MS-13. And that wouldn't make him a terrorist even if there was.
Is there an actual written agreement (or Memorandum of Understanding) between the US and El Salvador on this issue? Anyone know a link to one?
No, because the administration has taken the position that it's a secret.
I do not give one single shit about Maryland Man. And the more the leftists cry about him, the more apparent their disdain for their actual fellow citizens becomes.
Maryland man, don't need him around anyhow,
Actually, I believe leftists would support bringing your sorry ass back to the U.S. if Trump sent you to El Salvador.
They didn't seem to care about what was done to Carter Page.
Nothing was "done to" Carter Page.
I should hope so; I'm an American citizen. I'm trying to remember the last time there was this much left-wing outrage over an issue affecting an actual fellow citizen. Maybe never?
There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
That "in-group" is called American citizens, you sophist.
If you truly believe there should be out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect, you are an evil person.
@davidpost,
The lack of due process is, of course, troubling and you raise a great point about how the Executive Branch could use these actions as a roadmap to illegal "deport" U.S. citizens. But this case raises significant issues about the court's jurisdiction over the Executive Branch as well. Should it be up to the court to determine whether the Executive Branch's efforts are sufficient? Can it order the EB to impose sanctions on a foreign nation if they refuse to return someone? Send in Seal Team 6? Openly declare war? At what point is the court's insertion of itself into foreign policy too far (or is there any limit)? These are not easy questions.
And how much does the Trump Admin's in your face non-defiance/defiance come into play?
I'm curious about a different issue related to CECOT. There are reports that the US Gov't is paying El Salvador to house deportees.
Where does that funding come from; did Congress authorize it?
I wouldn't say that Trump is leaving the decision of whether or not to release Abrego Garcia to the Salvadorans. SCOTUS can tell our government to bring him back, but they have no authority over Bukele, so Trump and Bukele probably agreed to let it look like Bukele was refusing to return him as a way of getting Trump off the hook. Bukele is, then, basically just Trump's sock puppet in this regard. It's not as if he would really refuse if Trump demanded Abrego Garcia's return.
"Let it look" is overly charitable. That press conference was open smirking defiance and people like Rloquitor are reveling in it.
Yes I am. I love seeing arrogant federal judges get their comeuppance.
My understanding is that the earlier courts said he could not be deported to El Salvador, they never said he could not be deported.
So why are the current district courts insisting he be returned to the USA instead of simply, and more correctly, ordering he be sent to a different country?
Un less there has been massive error in the reporting (gasp), the "administrative error" was only in the destination, not in the actual deportation.
Or can a district court actually insist on a military invasion?
An excellent question and one I have had since the beginning. If we had sent him to Gitmo from the outset, then there would have been no problem based on my understanding. If that is the case, why can't we end this thing and make everything right by taking him from CECOT to Gitmo?
The point is that Trump wants to defy the courts. Transferring Abrego Garcia to Gitmo and holding him there while the feds collaterally attacked the old "do not deport" order or found a country other than El Salvador to which to send the guy would be to conceed that that due process requirements apply to deportations and that Trump does not have unfettered authority to imprisin people abroad. Trump has no interest in making such concessions.
It would not. He has already conceded that there was an "administrative error." He would be simply correcting that error by transferring him to Gitmo.
Because Trump wanted a test case to see whether he can successfully send people he regards as undesirable to a network of concentration camps free of judicial interference. Think about all the people he has portrayed as crjminals - Hilary clinton, Liz Cheney, etc. etc. etc. If people thought he could be stopped over a lousy El Salvadoran nobody, what do you think they might do if he does the same to Hilary Clinton or Liz Cheney? Or you or me?
The whole POINT is to make a display, a big display, of the complete impotence of the courts, the complete inability of “the system” to stop him. That’s the whole point. Once people start getting that clearly into their heads, and get used to it, bigger game, and a lot more of it, will follow. Those five prisons may be just the beginning. Maybe we’ll see each other there.
OMG, Trump has done it now. Chris Van Hollen is going to CECOT:
https://redstate.com/terichristoph/2025/04/15/chris-van-hollen-wants-constituent-abrego-garcia-back-n2187881
Hey DN, who needs STS-6 when you have CVH!!
Lots of very predictable comments here. I guess what I don’t understand is why the pretense? You Trumpists are in favor of establishing a framework whereby citizens can be interned at CECOT ala Manzanar.
So Why the insistence on parsing “facilitate” or asserting SCOTUS has blessed what has happened to this guy? Is it the certain knowledge, deep down, that this sort of power, once arrogated, never remains cabined to the original group? That a society which declares one political community beyond the protection of the law eventually will move on to other communities?
Perhaps it’s the sneaking suspicion that someday there will be a Democratic administration again, a time when strict adherence to the rule of law, past practice, and precedent regarding the foreign internment of citizens will once again become a priority?
yeah, isn't it funny when the shoe is on the other foot? When it was Rittenhouse being threatened with LWOP, it was all good, no?
He's just concern trolling.
I should have added that some of the ultras, like you, are at least approaching honesty without pretense. I suppose the assumption is that you and your fellow travelers will be safe from such treatment in this new future because of political affiliation/racial characteristics/parentage. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine whether that supposition is supported by even a cursory study of history.
“Rittenhouse”
You get the heroes you deserve.
Whether you consider Rittenhouse a hero or not, the fact is that there was no basis to charge him whatsoever, and doing so was a violation of his rights.
Of course, liberals sainted George Floyd.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2025/04/committing-journalism-in-canada.php
Here's some real fascism for you.
Other than the dead bodies, I assume you mean.
One has a right not to be charged if one kills someone and claims self-defense?
I suppose theoretically we have a right not to be indicted or charged when there is no probable cause a crime was committed. But getting PC in a homicide where the shooter isn’t in question and there are conflicting stories isn’t that hard.
I hear old Rittenhouse has been on the grift circuit for two years now
He deserves any $$ he can get.
Your mama's been running trains way longer than that, and what's with the "Hobie"?? I'd recognize the Revolting Reverend Kirtland's Wit anywhere.
"That a society which declares one political community beyond the protection of the law eventually will move on to other communities?"
You mean like underage white girls in modern Britain?
Or White people in general in the US?
"You Trumpists are in favor of establishing a framework whereby citizens can be interned at CECOT ala Manzanar. "
Mind reading.
Not exactly a denial there Bobby.Neither is this, come to think of it:
“yeah, isn't it funny when the shoe is on the other foot?”
And, of course, it might not take ESP to correctly surmise where a Pinochet apologist comes out on internment.
Whatever will you Democrats do about your irrelevancy in the public forum? El Salvador might have room for you: free meals, clothing, living in paradise. win, win!
Judge allows DOJ to drop case against illegal immigrant arrested in Virginia accused of being MS-13 leader
A Virginia judge approved a Department of Justice motion to dismiss its case against an accused MS-13 leader, clearing the way for his deportation......His deportation would send him to his native country, El Salvador, where he would likely be sent to El Salvador’s Terrorism Confinement Center. The Trump administration secured a deal to send alleged gang members and other violent criminals to CECOT for $6 million per year.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/immigration/3380975/judge-doj-drop-case-illegal-immigrant-virginia-ms-13/
I look to Jimmy Carter, and to some extent Biden, as to how these hayseeds behave. Carter was at first disliked for political reasons, but that shtick became stale over the years because it would no longer drive a stake into the hearts of libs. So they just became nastier about him. And the more he quietly went about helping the poor or preaching the word, the angrier the hayseeds became. Men like Carter stare back at these hate-filled hayseeds when they look in the mirror and it drives them mad
Carter was clearly underrated as a president, but his tongue baths for the North Korean leaders were revolting.
But hey, ol' JD is the best ass-[french]kisser evah.
and Jimmuh Cartuh shot and killed his neighbors Cat for the crime of hunting birds.
"You Trumpists are in favor of establishing a framework whereby citizens can be interned at CECOT ala Manzanar."
The U.S. government sending a Salvadoran back to El Salvador = the U.S. government wants to send its own citizens to CECOT? Fascinating analysis.
Trump fucking said it, dude.
https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/video/trump-floats-idea-of-sending-u-s-citizens-convicted-of-violent-crimes-to-el-salvador/
And you'll support that too, because you are awful.
So— just to be clear: you wouldn’t support that? Or are you just contesting that they have said it?
The intellectual dishonest of David Post deeply troubles me.
1-You would think that Mr. Garcia dropped out of the sky into the United States according to Mr. Post, who willfully and knowingly omits the fact that Abrego entered the United States illegally in 2011.
2-Mr. Garcia is not an American citizen nor is he a permanent resident alien. In matter of fact, he is in the United States illegally. This status has been clearly defined in his numerous court appearances. Another irrefutable fact Mr. Post willfully omits.
3-Mr. Garcia was detained in 2019 and denied release on bond by an immigration court that found MR. GARCIA IS A VERIFIED MEMBER OF MS-13.
Let me state this irrefutable fact again. A 2019 IMMIGRATION COURT FOUND THAT MR. GARCIA IS A VERFIED MEMBER OF MS-13.
The court verified Mr. Garcia's MS-13 gang name and rank and noted that Abrego presented no evidence whatsoever to rebut his status as a member of MS-13 to the court.
4-The same 2019 immigration court found Mr. Garcia a flight risk and a danger to the community if released.
5-Mr. Garcia appealed the immigration court's finding and the COURT OF APPEALS UPHEALD THE FINDING THAT ABREGO WAS A MS-13 GANG MEMBER, A FLIGHT RISK, AND A DANGER TO SOCIETY IF RELEASED.
6. Mr. Garcia WAS NOT GRANTED A LEGAL RIGHT TO STAY IN THE UNITED STATES. He was granted a withholding of removal only that prevented removal to El Salvador only. There was no prohibition that he could be removed at any time to another third party country.
The only thing that worries me is intellectually dishonest propagandists like Mr. Post who OMIT IRREFUTABLE FACTS that hurt their argument and make WILLFULL MISREPRESENTATIONS. I also am worried about institutions like the Cato and Temple's law school that aid and abet this type of propaganda.
Thank you for the time line of facts and truth, a rarity today.
Some of those facts are wrong; the rest are irrelevant.
Not necessarily in the court of public opinion, which is what matters in this Article II v. Article III fight.
How are you able to read his comment with your head stuck in denial sand?
DN is good at that.
Define which are wrong. Be specific.
Post says: the seizure and transport of Abrego Garcia was, as everyone acknowledges, "illegal."
No, not true. Scotus says: "The United States acknowledges that", but that only means that some DoJ lawyer made some concession. Trump maintains that the deportation was legal. Garcia had no right to remain in the USA, and so he was deported.
No it doesn't. I liked above to the sworn statement from the ICE official who oversaw the deportation and the brief from the Solicitor General that both acknowledge that he was deported in error.
I like how you guys have to make shit up to try to bring the world into alignment with whatever random statement Trump made most recently. Seems like a lot of work.
The statements say that it was an administrative error to deport him to El Salvador, as opposed to deporting him to some other country. They do not admit that deporting him was illegal.
Well you changed your tune pretty quickly on that one. Gotta get caught up on the latest talking points!
Is there a response in your post?
I'm not super interested in trying to respond to people who just change the subject when it becomes clear that they are wrong.
Disingenuous rhetoric all around.
Another sad day at the conspiracy.
I laugh at DN--he loves the student loan forgiveness, but what if some district started ignoring Plyler v. Doe? Or if Trump said no federal funds to schools that follow it?
There are two people here that I can think of who might be called "DN." Me, and Don Nico. I don't recall the latter having said anything about loans (and he hasn't been in this thread at all, so it would be weird to bring him up.) And I hated the student loan forgiveness that Biden was pursuing, so it's even weirder to make the accusation against me.
I assume this is because I've called out repeatedly the lie that Biden said he'd defy the Supreme Court on student loan forgiveness. Unfortunately, some people — MAGA in particular — are so tribal that they assume that if you challenge something they said about X, it must be because you have the opposite view on the merits of X.
Indeed, I have said nothing about this matter and I don't recall saying anything about student loans.
With some honorable exceptions (like Nieporent) these comments are a disgrace. Mindless, juvenile assholeism (i.e. like Trump). And I haven’t even seen the many comments from people I’ve muted.
This must have been linked on the main Reason page as it appears to have opened a portal to the shitposting side of Reason.
No, it's the usual Volokh thread MAGA shitposters.
Just curious here...
1) Mr. Garcia is a citizen of El Salvador. He is not a citizen of the United States...or permanent resident...or even someone granted asylum United States.
2) Mr. Garcia is being held prisoner by the government of El Salvador.
3) Under what principle of international law can country A demand that country B release a citizen of country B from country B's own prisons? Let alone a court in country A....
I don't see anyone suggesting the US can "demand" that El Salvador return him. Asking nicely would be pretty reasonable, though. Then, if the US wants to go through the normal procedures and deport him appropriately that would probably also be fine, although it seems like they'd have to find some other country willing to take him since there's still an order in place not to send him to El Salvador.
It's pretty tiresome to try to engage when the only arguments that one side seems to be engaging with are strawmen.
Second question.
Anwar al-Awlaki was a US Citizen. He was not afforded a trial, nor any due process in the United States. President Obama put him on a kill list, ordered a drone sent to a country that the United States was not at war with, and killed him.
Is that better or worse than what happened here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki
Whataboutism aside... He was engaging in war against the US as a member of al-Qaeda. It's not better or worse but rather too different to be a useful comparison with Garcia.
And what about his son who was killed by a drone shortly after that
Too different? A US Civilian was ordered to be killed by the POTUS. No judicial system. No due process. Just "You're bad, you deserve to die. Bye".
Third question.
Abdulrahman al-Awlaki was a 16 year old US Citizen. He was accused of no crime. He did nothing wrong. Under President Obama's orders a drone strike ended up killing him in Yemen. The United States was not at war with Yemen.
When questioned, a U.S. administration official speaking on condition of anonymity described Abdulrahman al-Awlaki as a bystander who was "in the wrong place at the wrong time"
Is that better or worse than what has happened here? Were there any consequences to anyone in the Obama administration for their "mistake"?
They call this whattaboutism.
It's all over the thread, as is the case with any thread that contains rloquitur.
Dunno why you thought it'd be neat to add some more.
Ah, so it's "whataboutism" when you point out that the outrage you are professing is exceptionally pliable if you like the person performing that "outrage"
They're not even trying anymore. It's like a cesspool of mendacity and hate here. Not just here, but everywhere
"Whataboutism" is useful if you're asking for a common standard to be upheld.
You look at the previous standard. And now you see what it should be.
You are comparing utterly different things. As others have pointed out.
You are trying to deflect. Because you cannot defend.
No but there should have been. Just like there should have been consequences for Bush admin people for illegal renditions/torture and the Clinton admin for Waco and Bush Sr/Reagan for Iran/Contra etc etc.
And now, after the USSC just declared the President above the law when exercising his authority, it's going to get even worse.
So you don't like Muslim children being blown up? Noted.
If you ever end up reading about it, you probably won't like the massacre of ambulance drivers bombed, then shot in the head at close range, then buried by bulldozers to cover it up. Then lied about in the media (I know lately you guys don't like lying)
You know, Armchair, I believe this is your second contradiction this week
He doesn't like Muslim children being blown up if it is done by a Democratic president.
They shouldn't have elected Hamas.
So if Muslim children get blown up, it depends on the politician that does it?
Judge Xinis's discovery order:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.578815/gov.uscourts.mdd.578815.79.0.pdf
Time to remind the judge of how little power she has and that she has vastly stepped over the line.
Roberts has the obligation to maintain the court's legitimacy. If he refuses, it is not the President's job to do it for him.
Put the judge in her place.
Wow she really is demanding Trump engage in foreign policy.
Fucking nutjob.
You should sign all of your comments that way. Truth in advertising and all.
Right now Judge Xinis is not ordering Trump to do anything. She has authorized Plaintiffs to propound discovery. Presumably the feds will object. Then there will be briefing and a hearing; and, after that Judge Xinis likley will enter an order requiring the feds to produce some of the discovery Plaintiffs seek. None of this comes close to stepping over a line or being an abuse of judicial authority.
Getting discovery makes sense, particularly with respect to issues regarding the "current physical location and custodial status of Abrego Garcia." With respect to what kind of final relief the Plaintiffs could get from Judge Xinis (or the Supreme Court) there is a substantial difference between (a) a scenario in which El Salvador independently arrested Abrego Garcia when the US transport plane landed and is now holding him in custody under the law of El Salvador; and (b) a scenario in which El Salvador is holding Abrego Garcia solely at the behest of the US and is contactually required to send him elsewhere if the US directs it to do so. Plaintiffs are entitled to know whether we are operating under scenario (a) or scenario (b) and this is information the courts should have before deciding whether the Trump administration may properly be rquired to take affirmative steps to facilitate Abrego Garcia's release from CECOT.
She took a step back from the precipice, then took two steps towards it.
What steps did she take towards what precipice?
She tells the government that she's not going to order the government to violate separation of powers by ordering them to conduct diplomacy. She then issues her written order where she lists instances where the government has conducted diplomacy as examples of the kind of thing she wants done to 'facilitate' Garcia's release.
Firstly, she hasn't ordered diplomacy. At this juncture she wants to know what facilitation has or will occur. Secondly, when did she would not order diplomacy?
Someone in reference to Post's comments on the Kennedy Center:
I don’t know about hysterics, but it certainly a hit overwrought, especially for an issue you admit doesn’t really matter.
He explained why he was upset. I would note that the whole thing was ridiculously petty, underlines his hubris, and is overall depressing. Not even the Kennedy Center (and the arts overall) will be free from his petty power-hungry ways?
It has a certain symbolism that alone matters along with everything else. I can understand why he was upset, ending with a personal comment about his love of opera.
Why make an issue of it? He kept perspective. The overall tone was more "seriously?" than anything else. Even doing that requires some sort of implicit criticism?
And, yes, given his overall suppression of First Amendment values, his petty move here has a wider significance. Arts is an important part of culture and him in charge of the Kennedy Center?
Do any of the leftists posting here or "protesting" want to admit this mestizo with the 80 IQ special needs child into your house?
He already has a residence; why would he need to be in mine?
Paid for by taxpayers. It's ours, not his.
If you want more Aztecs or Mayans in America, you take them in. The rest of us don't want these Injuns
You see, this is what actual racism is like, the genuine article, not some watered-down substitute like the vague "institutional" stuff.
"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermingling with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior. I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
Abraham Lincoln
“a perfectly stupid race can never rise to a very high plane; the negro, for instance, has been kept down as much by lack of intellectual development as by anything else.”
Teddy Roosevelt
I ran some questions about the Garcia case through an AI and now I will check to see if the AI got it right. If not, I won't pay its bill (/joke).
Summary of what the AI said:
Apparently this is all about non-refoulement - the provision in the refugee convention that you can't send someone to a country where they'd be persecuted. The DoJ hearing officer in 2019 found an over 50% chance that Garcia would be persecuted by gangs if he was sent back to El Salvador, and therefore Garcia was granted a *Withholding of Removal.* Can't be sent back to El Salvador, but doesn't have refugee status as defined in U. S. law. Modifying a withholding of removal requires notice and hearing.
My comments based on what the AI told me:
The administration did the precise thing which Garcia's immigration status protected him against: send him to a country where he was found to face persecution.
Hmmm. "...the government ... has provided no evidence ... that it is true..." that Abrego is an MS13 member? I specifically saw an order where an immigration judge saw such evidence (testimonial evidence of a registered confidential informant) and accepted it as valid for the purposes of his immigration decision.
Hmmm. "... without any notice or a warrant..." Abrego was seized and deported. Is some kind of notice or warrant required other than the deportation order? I thought the deportation order was sufficient for deportation.
I am sorry but this seems like if you are getting the basic legal facts wrong, all your worrying and gnashing of teeth about a Constitutional crisis is just wasteful pontificating and emotional cleansing. Thusly, I will save my time by not reading further.
But I do have to say ... I find it amazing that lawyers get their panties in a wad over this concept that the "Courts must be obeyed at all costs." That is poppycock of the highest order. There are plenty of times the court got it wrong, including the Supreme Court. Dred Scott, Korematsu, Casey, and others.
Of late, the courts are engaging in their own form of lawfare in placing TROs that are neither Temporary nor Restraining parties (but rather, forcing parties to act). They are attempting to act outside their jurisdiction in both parties and scope. I think that some famous judge once said something like if a law is contrary to the Constitution it is no law at all. And as such, the crappy judges who try to order unconstitutional behaviour are right to be ignored.
You are entirely correct that a Constitutional crisis is brewing. But it is the judges unconstrained by a weak Chief Justice that will be the proximate cause.