The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Should A Federal District Court Hold Contempt Proceedings While An Emergency Appeal Is Ongoing?
Maybe judges should hold off on ordering the executive branch to show cause until the Supreme Court finishes its review.
The Supreme Court's decision in Trump v. J.G.G. divested Judge Boasberg of the jurisdiction to further adjudicate the matter. It also cast in serious doubt whether he could continue his contempt proceedings against the executive branch. Earlier this week, I wrote "it is not clear if the District Court has power to hold the executive branch in contempt where it lacks jurisdiction over the case." I still don't know the answer to that question, but as a practical matter, Judge Boasberg will likely stand down.
My colleague Seth Barrett Tillman ruminated on holding litigants in contempt in the context of emergency orders.
If the DOJ refused to abide by a federal trial court judge's order, and that order was granted ex parte, but subsequently it was set aside, then what should the judge do? My view is that holding the prevailing party in contempt should not be predicated on mere disobedience standing alone. Contempt's normative justification is tied to fair play and due process, but where the process is ex parte, contempt is too harsh. What is driving the public mind (or part thereof) to press for contempt in the recent immigration cases is that a large part of the public believes the Trump-47 policies are lawless or heartless or both. But if the policies are lawless, that's a merits determination. If the order was set aside on appeal, then the merits standing alone should not be sufficient cause to elicit a contempt order. As for heartless, I am sure that the majority of federal judges think that too. But that is a policy and values judgement—we hold elections to make those decisions—we do not issue contempt citations for being on the wrong side of a naked moral judgment untethered to established law.
Where an ex parte TRO is set aside, I think a federal trial court judge has a narrow window of opportunity to hold a disobedient defendant in contempt. The judge must establish that the defendant's conduct during and in the course of the litigation was illegal or inequitable. Here I am speaking not to the litigant's underlying or out-of-court conduct, but his conduct in relation to his representation before the trial court. The conduct would have to be something akin to unclean hands (albeit, that doctrine usually applies to plaintiffs' seeking equitable relief, as opposed to defendants' opposing an application for equitable relief).
To put it another way, when a trial court's ex parte TRO is on its way up through the court system on appeal, a judge should refrain from discussing contempt, in full public view, for noncompliance during that time. After the appellate process is over, then that's the time to consider a contempt citation, and it should be done in full public view. Otherwise, the judge will look vicious, officious, and biased. And that cannot be right.
As usual, I find Seth's reasoning persuasive. Let me extend Seth's point a bit further.
Imagine two counterfactuals. What if Judge Boasberg had held the executive branch in contempt before the Supreme Court ruled that he lacked jurisdiction? Maybe he sought to fine, or even incarcerate a DOJ lawyer, or someone higher up in the administration. Alternatively, what if the contempt proceedings elicited information that could have caused the Supreme Court to rule differently. For example, the judge demanded that the Secretary of Homeland Security testify in open court about classified matters. These hypotheticals raise what I think has been an unstudied question: should a federal district court even hold contempt proceedings while an emergency appeal is ongoing? In other words, if a case is rocketing up the shadow docket, should judges hold off on ordering the executive branch to show cause until the Supreme Court finishes its review?
I think the answers to these questions have to be no and yes. The entire case went from the trial court to the Supreme Court in about a month. There really was no need to hold any contempt proceedings while the appeal was ongoing--especially in light of the fact that the government contested the court's jurisdiction. But more fundamentally, the question of whether the government engaged in contempt very much turns on whether the court's order was lawful.
It is true that in the normal course, the way to challenge a trial court's ruling is through the appellate process. But this was not a normal case. Here the court instructed a coordinate branch of government how to exercise its constitutional authority when there was no practical time for an appeal. Can it be that a single district court judge can exercise absolute authority over the executive branch, even for a limited time? Should the government be held in contempt for not immediately turning planes around over international waters? At best for the court, this is in something of a zone of twilight where the allocation of powers between the judiciary and executive branch is unclear. I would remind everyone that the Truman Administration did not immediately obey an unstayed district court order in the Steel Seizure case. At worst, Judge Boasberg's order, issued orally without the benefit of full party presentation, should not form the basis for a contempt citation.
The first phase of the Trump litigation was unappealable TROs. The second phase entailed preliminary injunctions that were appealed to the Supreme Court, but were vacated through some compromises. The third phase, I predict, will be hostile contempt proceedings where district court judges try to reassert their authority over the executive branch, even in the face of SCOTUS reversals. We may not have a special counsel like Robert Mueller to launch inquisitions against the Trump Administration, but district court judges in D.C. and Maryland will gladly assume that role. Soon enough, we will be talking about "obstruction of justice" all over again. We might spend the next four years inquiring about what Trump knew about the airplanes. This very well might form the basis of future articles of impeachment. It is 2017 all over again.
I'll close with an unpopular opinion. When a judge feels the need to hold the executive branch in contempt, he should recuse and let another fresh judge decide if the contempt proceedings are justified. I think it is tough for a judge to simultaneously decide which party has the better reading of the law, while lurking in the background is the question of whether the government flouted the court's order about that disputed question of law. I made this point concerning an unusual case from South Dakota where a District Court judge sought to hold the U.S. Marshal in his contempt. The District Court Judge actually appointed a special prosecutor to prosecute the Marshal, akin to the Donziger case. But to his credit, the District Court judge recused and let another judge handle the matter. At the time, I opined:
Recusal seems like an obvious move. This judge has clearly made up his mind. The case is so personal. There is no pretense of objectivity at this point. The case is styled United States of America v. John Kilhallon, et al. But the Plaintiff is not the United States. It is a single judge who abused his discretion. Judge Kornmann makes Judge Emmet Sullivan seem reasonable by comparison.
Unsurprisingly, cooler heads prevailed, and the new judge dismissed the contempt proceedings against the Marshal.
If any further contempt proceedings are to be had, I think recusal would be appropriate here for Judges Boasberg, Xinis, and any other judge seeking to hold the administration in contempt. No matter how hard a judge tries, these sorts of cases become personal.
The case would not be J.G.G. v. Trump. It would be J.E.B. v. Trump. And Trump has some experience with moderates named Jeb!
There is no harm in letting a fresh set of eyes review the matter.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
On the "can" part, distinct from the "should" part:
A federal judge has jurisdiction to determine his jurisdiction, including the power to issue orders. How can he not have the power to punish disobedience to those orders?
The issue isn't jurisdiction, it is equity.
Generally speaking, contempt has two functions: (1) coercing the party into compliance, and (2) compensation for disobedience. Once an injunction has been dissolved, there is nothing to coerce. The disobedience is moot for purposes of the coercive function. All that is left is the compensatory function.
"[T]he right to this remedial relief for violation of an injunction or temporary restraining order falls with an injunction or temporary restraining order 'which events prove was erroneously issued, and a fortiori when the injunction or restraining order was beyond the jurisdiction of the court.'" Reliance Ins. Co. v. Mast Const. Co., 84 F.3d 372, 376 (10th Cir. 1996) (quoting United States v. United Mine Workers of America, 330 U.S. 258, 295 (1947)); Shell Offshore Inc. v. Greenpeace, Inc., 815 F.3d 623, 630 (9th Cir. 2016); Ohr ex rel. Nat'l Lab. Rels. Bd. v. Latino Exp., Inc., 776 F.3d 469, 479 (7th Cir. 2015).
"[A] claim for civil contempt must fall if the order that was disobeyed is subsequently reversed by the issuing court or the appellate court, or if its issuance exceeded the power of the issuing court." Reliance, 84 F.3d at 376; Karaha Bodas Co. v. Perusahaan Pertambangan Minyak Dan Gas Bumi Negara, 335 F.3d 357, 375 (5th Cir. 2003); Coleman v. Espy, 986 F.2d 1184, 1190 (8th Cir. 1993) ("Compensatory civil contempt actions do not survive if the underlying injunction is vacated because it was issued erroneously.").
However, generally, "a person who violates an injunction or temporary restraining order during its pendency is subject to a compensatory civil contempt judgment, even if the injunction or restraining order later terminates due to passage of time or mootness." Reliance, 84 F.3d at 376; Shell Offshore, 815 F.3d at 630 ("Once an injunction has been terminated, a court may still award compensation to the plaintiff as a result of injuries caused by its opponent's contumacy.").
When an injunction was erroneously issued, it may, of course, be difficult to show that an injury was caused by its violation, regardless of the opposing party's contumacy.
(Correction: I typed too hastily.)
I should have said that showing injury as a result of the violation of an erroneous injunction is effectively impossible.
Thus the distinction between (1) the injunction lapsing for reasons unrelated to its validity -- in which case coercion is out, but compensatory contempt survives -- and (2) the injunction being dissolved because it was erroneous -- where both coercion and compensation are effectively out the window.
Vacating an order ends civil contempt but not criminal contempt. If identifiable individuals willfully violated the since-vacated orders they can be prosecuted.
Because the President can place a battery of 155mm howitzers in front of the courthouse and level the building -- with the judge in it.
The whiplash one feels when one reads a comment like JimM47's and then reads an immediately following comment by Dr. Ed is one of the reasons I read the VC.
It's like when you were twirled in a circle by your ankles by an adult at the beach.
I was actually answering John Carr's question:
" How can [judge] not have the power to punish disobedience to those orders?"
" . . . then what should the judge do?"
Resign?
Xinis: "Hold my beer, NOW."
Um, there was no SCOTUS reversal there, but a SCOTUS affirmance. And the administration's response today was contemptuous both substantively and in tone. They defied the order and did so about as disrespectfully as possible.
Leaving your false binary to die the death it richly deserves, you fast-forwarded to the end and left out just a smidge of relevant facts in the runup:
1. After reading the SCOTUS order and seeing red, she jammed in a new order late last night demanding a declaration by 9:30 this morning.
2. The administration rather politely pointed out that wasn't practicable, and asked for a 2-business-day extension.
3. She gave them 2 hours.
She's clearly trying to tee up a contempt scenario.
She's gonna piss off SCOTUS...
clearly!
The administration rather contemptuously (in both senses of the word) dishonestly refused to comply based on a made up claim about it being too hard.
The new deadline to which you refer was the deadline to provide information, not the deadline to bring Garcia back.
It doesn't take that much time in this business and intellectual honesty at all to appreciate that an order around bedtime to 1) secure a declarant, 2) draft the declaration, 3) send the declaration through review by the three involved Cabinet departments, 4) round up the declarant again to sign it, and 5) file it by 9:30am, is demanding that a decent swath of people in the administration stay up overnight for her little step-and-fetch project -- and very possibly still miss the deadline if any of them were to become distracted for any length of time by actual short-fuse problems in the country.
Though I could be wrong, right now I credit her with far more than enough intelligence to well understand that her overbearing approach was not going to get the information she claimed she wanted any faster, and in fact likely would delay it. Ergo, her ultimate goal was not the information at all, but the confrontation.
Right, that was the "demanding a declaration" bit. What's your point?
> is demanding that a decent swath of people in the administration stay up overnight for her little step-and-fetch project -- and very possibly still miss the deadline if any of them were to become distracted for any length of time by actual short-fuse problems in the country.
It's a little easier to refute the "rather contemptuously (in both senses of the word)" if you don't include clauses like this in your response.
Oh, I personally have a good deal of contempt for how the latest black-robed tyrant-in-training has chosen to conduct herself over the past few days, particularly her choice to double/triple down after getting body-checked by SCOTUS and rather specifically instructed to play nice.
But my personal opinion has naught to do with the actual papers filed by the administration -- which are actually what we were talking about when you dropped by -- and which are admirably measured under the circumstances.
You are laughably partisan. The President assuming extra-constitutional power and doing illegal things gets nary a word, but the judges are tyrants. Do you think anyone takes your comments seriously?
That the notion that this couldn't be accomplished overnight is a malicious lie. This could have been complied within an hour or two, notwithstanding your attempt to make "make a few phone calls and send an email" sound like the Manhattan Project.
It's legal nonsense to suggest a district court judge could hold the government in contempt for not acting quickly enough, in his opinion, on something he was just told by SCOTUS he has no authority to order.
There's just as much disrespect here from the judge, continuing on as if he wasn't just overruled by SCOTUS. You can't defy a judicial order that's not valid or impossible to comply with. We just went through that with Judge Boasberg. In this case, asking and expecting progress on something Xinis ordered outside of business hours, only a few hours later. No judicial emergency exists, except in his mind.
So far, the administration has been able to do what it pleases on the spur of the moment. I welcome it finally and suddenly becoming contemplative, but the timing is curious
The judge had given them time already. They should have had a plan b at the ready with information about what they were going to do to try and facilitate his return. Instead they gave the judge the middle finger and got slapped down by the Supreme Court. The disrespect is doing nothing to fix an obvious and unjust mistake that they caused. The judge was 100% right to light a fire under them.
And they to park a 155 battery outside the judges house.
1) The judge is a woman, which shows the attention you're paying to the facts.
2) SCOTUS upheld the judge's order in its entirety (other than the already passed deadline).
3) It is a defense to contempt that you couldn't comply with a court order. Such a defense requires a showing that you used your best efforts and could not succeed — not a shrug and a whine.
4) There is a person being held in a dangerous place after having been illegally sent there. If a DOJ lawyer has to pull an all nighter to make up for the government's illegal conduct, then that's really not too much to ask.
I've got a better idea: Send the Delta Charlie judge to El Salvador.
I think it is past time pretending that a US judge has the right to tell a sovereign foreign country that it must surrender one of its own citizens.
I feel no need to apologize to you, for not having seen in anything I read that included the judge's first name, pronouns, or gender. Pretty much all I've seen referred to her as a judge without any qualification.
That the person is being held in a "dangerous" place (stipulated) has NO relevance to questions about the authority of a federal judge to order the president/executive to do something the courts lack authority to order, because of the separation of powers and/or their competence to order the executive branch to do something in its exclusive authority sphere. Why Supreme Court Justice William Douglas could not issue an injunction to stop Richard NIxon from bombing Cambodia.
So no, the district court judge cannot hold the administration in contempt for not having acted expeditiously on her order which expired while the issue was before the Supreme Court, and allegedly was in effect. Because the order, insofar as it remained after remand, is not the order as the judge understood and meant it before SCOTUS issued its per curiam.
Pretending otherwise is partisan hackery.
The district court retains authority to order the government provide information about its efforts to get Garcia released. It remains beyond her competence to sanction if ultimately they shrug their collective shoulders and said sorry, we tried and failed. She cannot adjudicate whether they tried hard enough, because the attempt is within the privilege of the executive authority, which cannot be second guessed elsewhere. Because if it could, SCOTUS would have affirmed the judge's order. They did not, again because separation of powers.
I realize it goes against the temperament of federal judges, gods in their own courtroom, but if the judge really wants information, a bit of honey might be a better strategy than vinegar. That has the added bonus of building a better record for a contempt citation, if the government does stonewall her in bad faith.
This does not express any opinion on other government lawyer conduct leading up to the SCOTUS per curiam. As I said above, the judge can't create a contempt trap by ordering government response on an emergency basis right after a SCOTUS remand which gave relief on the deadline. As the case before Boasberg already highlighted, it's not defiance of a judicial order when it was never possible for the government to satisfy its terms, be they timeframe or action.
You're an engineer.
Bureaucrats don't pull all-nighters.
Shows how much you know.
Yes. I'm a citizen who can read. So I guess you're only left with appeals to authority, instead of engaging with anything I've said.
In this case of Xinis, SCOTUS did NOT uphold her order. The severely modified it. In this case of Boasberg, compliance and what was even ordered was in dispute.
I've never voted for Trump. I do not like much of what he has been doing. That does not matter when it comes to facts and the law here.
Which part of "The rest of the District Court’s order [i.e., other than the already-passed deadline] remains in effect" confuses you?
I got no problem with laypeople talking law.
But you're just making pronouncements about what the law is. Incorrect pronouncements. And, here, getting case holding wrong.
You are passionately confident of stuff you're not an expert in. That should be a red flag.
"Contempt trap" — like "perjury trap" — isn't actually a thing. It's just something that criminals and their apologists say to excuse their criminality.
If one is actually incapable of complying with a court order, then it isn't contempt not to do so. But that defense requires a showing that one used one's best efforts to comply and was unable to succeed. Not an unsworn assertion and a "shrug."
You seem confused about the facts in more ways than just not knowing the judge's sex. First, the original order — which was upheld by SCOTUS — was issued a week ago. They had days to comply before Roberts issued a stay. Second, after SCOTUS upheld — yes, upheld — the judge's order, she issued a followup one ordering them to provide her information in short order. And they just outright refused.
This is false. The order was NOT upheld by SCOTUS. They fundamentally changed it, because unlike the judge, they recognized the separation of powers problem that no court could order the executive branch to do what the judge was ordering. Certainly the judge still believes and is acting as if she still can, pretending she was affirmed on that despite them modifying her order.
You embarrass yourself with your partisan posturing. They did not refuse to supply information. They said they could not comply in the timeframe she demanded. Which was unreasonable, for reasons I already explained. Which is why I called it a contempt trap. But she is still behaving as if Garcia not already in the process of being returned is a violation. It is not and cannot be, as SCOTUS decided.
I've never voted for Trump. I want him to try and get Garcia back. No court can order him to do that. That's what SCOTUS just decided.
You've chosen your side, and will defend it no matter what. As you continue to prove.
Which part of "The rest of the District Court’s order [i.e., other than the already-passed deadline] remains in effect" confuses you?
I'm just an idiot and not a lawyer, but my understanding is the collateral bar rule requires that parties follow court orders even if they believe the court does not have subject matter jurisdiction with extremely limited exceptions that don't apply here. I did a quick scholarship search and found John Palmer's Cornell Law Review article indicating this is the case. Am I wrong?
> When a judge feels the need to hold the executive branch in contempt, he should recuse and let another fresh judge decide if the contempt proceedings are justified.
Well, I agree with Josh Blackman, who feels that there should be significantly more judges recusing themselves due to conflicts, but I think we both disagree with Josh Blackman, who has a voluminous amount of scholarship arguing that judges should almost never recuse and that calls for recusal should be frowned upon. So I guess the question is who has the stronger argument, Josh Blackman or Josh Blackman.
You are correct that the collateral bar rule applies (federally, though not in all states). So you have no right to defy an unlawful injunction. But the ability to enforce an unlawful injunction can get complicated. See my reply to John F. Carr upthread. So the answer for Holmes's 'bad man' to whether you can violate an unlawful injunction is, as it often tends to be, "it depends."
A soldier has a RIGHT to NOT follow an illegal or unlawful order.
>A soldier has a RIGHT to NOT follow an illegal or unlawful order.
And therein lies a distinction between executive power and judicial power. A military command is not the same as an injunction. A military officer's power over a subordinate is not the same as a judicial officer's power over a party.
You can argue that the collateral bar rule is overbroad as applied to certain circumstances -- as I do -- or even that it is wrong in all circumstances. But it is a doctrine that remains on the books. So the original commenter is not wrong to point out that it is a factor in answering Josh's unresearched question.
Throw the judge in prison and be done with it.
I'm on a razor's edge with this issue but you've pushed me to one side. Why should anyone have to follow an "unlawful injunction." To state the proposition is to defeat it.
My assumption is it depends on the realistic possibility of the questionable order carried out and the degree of difficulty in doing so.
Producing documents that already exist and are readily accessible is a much different question than negotiating with a foreign nation or lawyers in a courtroom communicating with military/law enforcement assets which can redirect airplanes in the air in a timely manner. Both these asks are far from ordinary.
I might feel more favorably towards turning around planes in the air if the judge had already ordered the courtroom lawyers to establish direct communication with those commanding the planes, so that any final judicial order could be quickly relayed.
> So I guess the question is who has the stronger argument, Josh Blackman or Josh Blackman.
You are leaving out the third possibility: they can both be wrong!
In this case, I think Josh is mixing up his criminal contempts and civil contempts. In one case, the subject-matter is actions in the courtroom; the judge is effectively a witness; so the judge should recuse if it is not necessary to impose an immediate and summary sanction. In the other case, the subject-matter is actions outside the courtroom; the judge is not a witness; and the judge doesn't generally recuse.
(Sorry for no citations: but this is an area of law that is similar in substance most places, but is stated differently in different places; that makes pulling citations tedious. I trust the point is made, even without citations, that Josh going on at length, while failing to cite cases or to grapple with the very basic elements of the problem.)
Bad Tillman link in article.
https://reformclub.blogspot.com/2025/04/ruminations-on-judge-boasbergs-choices.html
Mr. D.
Why focus on the ex parte stuff... the contempt issue is about the govt's responses, actions, etc... once they were brought into court and the judge started asking questions.
I.e, I don't think the contempt is over refusing to turn the planes around (the oral order). It's about the gov'ts actions after the written order was entered and their obstinate filings and refusal to answer the court's simple questions.
The gov didn't assert an arguably frivolous state's secrets privilege over the oral order to turn a plane around. (I say frivolous because the info was already shared publicly by other executive branch officials AND wasn't even classified).
Why not research whether asserting a fraudulent privilege to shield unethical behavior to the tribunal is contemptuous? That's the relevant inquiry here, is it not?
The way it was explained to me was that we presumed the (then) Soviets knew the information, it would be worse if they were to read it from our own manuals because then they'd be sure of its accuracy.
Why limit changing judges oyy for allegations of executive branch contempt. The reasoning, that is a fresh set of eyes is good, would apply to all parties.
Where was Josh when DOI was ffooundd in contempt in the Indian trust casesll?
As to the gist of it, the collateral challenge rule would mean that the validity of the order couldn't be used to defend in the contempt proceeding, no? You basically have a court looking to freeze the chessboard long enough for it to determine whether it is obliged to do something, given the facts before it. At that point, the contempt res begins, governed by the world that judge understands at the time.
"In the case before us, the District Court had the power to preserve existing conditions while it was determining its own authority to grant injunctive relief. The defendants, in making their private determination of the law, acted at their peril. Their disobedience is punishable as criminal contempt."
United States v. United Mine Workers, 330 U.S. 258 (1947)
"We regard this argument as unsound. It has been held, it is true, that orders made by a court having no jurisdiction to make them may be disregarded without liability to process for contempt. In re Sawyer, 124 U. S. 200; Ex Parte Fisk, 113 U. S. 713; Ex Parte Rowland, 104 U. S. 604. But even if the circuit court had no jurisdiction to entertain Johnson's petition, and if this Court had no jurisdiction of the appeal, this Court, and this Court alone, could decide that such was the law. It and it alone necessarily had jurisdiction to decide whether the case was properly before it. On that question, at least, it was its duty to permit argument, and to take the time required for such consideration as it might need. See Mansfield, Coldwater & Lake Michigan Ry. Co. v. Swan, 111 U. S. 379, 111 U. S. 387. Until its judgment declining jurisdiction should be announced, it had authority, from the necessity of the case, to make orders to preserve the existing conditions and the subject of the petition, just as the state court was bound to refrain from further proceedings until the same time. Rev.Stat. § 766; Act of March 3, 1893, c. 226, 27 Stat. 751. The fact that the petitioner was entitled to argue his case shows what needs no proof, that the law contemplates the possibility of a decision either way, and therefore must provide for it.
Holmes, United States v. Shipp, 203 U.S. 563 (1906)
And this isn't a nationwide injunction to preserve the equities against irreparable harm. It's an order keeping the handful of guys whose case is directly at issue from being sent into possibly perpetual confinement beyond the reach of the court. Seems like a logical request.
Not advice, don't rely.
Mr. D.
All this seems to prove is that since Marbury courts have been entrusted to decide the limits of their own power, and unsurprisingly they view it extremely large.
Under this theory, the local judge could order me to mow my grass right now because he drove by and thought it too high. And rightfully believing that he doesn't have that authority, I could still be held in contempt even when the appeals court takes away his judicial license for being so intrusive. That cannot be right even if courts say that they are all powerful. We are a nation of laws, not men.
And just because these men (now many women) have black robes doesn't mean that they are the absolute rulers of us.
Perhaps it just means that the finding isn't disallowed as a matter of law, as opposed to per se legit. As a matter of law, a judge could find that not cutting your lawn was sufficiently contemnorish, or that you shouldn't have kidnapped your Venezuelan gardener and sent him off to lifetime imprisonment in a third country because you didn't like the look of his tattoos. Enter the merits of the claim.
Mr. D.
Carl Schmitt had absolutely nothing on Josh Blackman. Sweet lord.
Overtly biased judges must be ignored as a matter of principle to the system, for the sake of the system ; balance the People's rights over their government's faults. Some people forget why we have government ; we continue it only under good behavior. All must do their part to preserve legitimacy.
Good behavior like illegally deporting somebody to a country you have under contract to incarcerate deportees and then doing nothing to get them back? Or suspending a government attorney who was upholding his duty of candor to the court and not complicity aiding the administration in its human rights violations?
Put aside the judges order. It's absolutely disgraceful that the administration has to even be told by a court to facilitate his return.
Courts have precisely zero foreign policy control or power. The President can simply say "Bukele please. I do not really care, but I have to say please".
Then have him say no and...then what the fuck will the courts do?
Probably makes more sense in the original Russian.
No, 155 HE rounds do.
Trump can do the most half-assed attempt humanly possible and there ain't shit a court can do.
Given that they have no power, at all, in regards to foreign policy.
SCOTUS does not like making verdicts that they cannot hope to actually have enforced or else it will make them look like they are powerless --- which they are. Yet they have done so. Might be time to put them in their place.
Trump is itching to defy the courts and Roberts knows it. That is why his rulings are calculated to that effect.
Do you mean no power in a practical sense only? A President has to follow statutory and constitutional law in all things, including foreign policy. It's a judge's job to determine whether the President is doing so.
I remember the good old days when you guys used to believe in checks and balances and limited federal power. Guess that was all bad faith. As usual.
They have precisely zero power over foreign policy. Courts cannot force a President to negotiate with another country in any manner whatsoever. If a court should try, the President is OBLIGATED to ignore the ruling as the court is violating the separation of powers wholesale.
El Salvador is under contract to accept those who are NOT El Salvadorian citizens. This perp is.
We can't put aside the order, because that is the only thing currently in controversy.
AFAIK, no one has suggested that Garcia was deported in intentional knowing defiance of the order forbidding it. It was a mistake. Yet people want to make that the issue, as if it makes any difference with how hard the government tries to get him out/back. The prior mistake does not make any subsequent government action any more sanctionable. Stop talking as if it does.
Nobody has proven it was a mistake. The government has provided no explanation of how it happened. And, yes, equitable remedies depend on how clean one's hands are.
The government has acknowledged the mistake. Unless or until some competent tribunal investigates and adjudicates otherwise, there is no reason why the government declaration should not be accepted.
Unless of course because of politics. Then you can assume unclean hands obviously.
Personally I'd like to know how it happened, so that it doesn't happen again. Because I'm not a shameless partisan. Separation of powers and all that, the judiciary has limited ability to launch an investigate. Because the order was not from an Article III court. I will leave it to federal civil procedure experts to tell me how a federal judge might go about investigating the violation of an order not issued by his or her court.
No, they claimed it was a mistake. And then they fired (suspended) the attorney who said that for not zealously advocating in favor of the government.
Unless or until some competent tribunal investigates and adjudicates otherwise, there is no reason why the government declaration should not be accepted.
This is not due process. The default can be to accept the government's assertions. But they get to be challenged. Otherwise you just have an autorcracy.
"Some people forget why we have government ..."
Does Dr. Ed know you're stealing his schtick?
'Probably makes more sense in the original Russian."
Is beautiful. Like potato.
Federal judges have no police power. If a Judge holds the executive branch in contempt that is enforced by federal law enforcement. All federal law enforcement works for the president. All federal jails and prisons are ran by the president. I
And then there is the pardon power. No federal court, even SCOTUS, can do much to check a president. That's what elections and impeachment are for. Any other discussion on this issue is just armchair academics.
Nah. The president doesn't argue his cases in the court's himself. While he can certainly pardon his DOJ advocates for criminal contempt - he does not have the same authority for civil contempt.
If his DOJ lackeys routinely ignore court rulings or actively defy them with the President's consent or at his direction; those same attorneys ability to practice law will be terminated. The court's have their own rules for admissions to their bar. Lacking a license to practice law would be detrimental to the govt advocating anything in any jurisdiction everywhere. They wouldn't be able to file briefs and the court wouldn't have to let them argue before the bench.
People forget that legal ethics are still taken seriously outside the gov't. GOP cheerleaders will cry about selective or partisan retribution. So fucking what. If you actively subvert the judiciary or intentionally defy court orders...you will get referred for investigation by your licensing authority. Just following orders will work there bout as good as it did at Nuremberg due to legal ethics rules regarding ethical behavior and duties to the tribunal/courts. This shouldn't be surprising given the attorneys formerly associated with Trump who now either lost their license to practice law or are appealing the loss of their license to practice law precisely because of their ethical lapses.
"Nah. The president doesn't argue his cases in the court's himself. While he can certainly pardon his DOJ advocates for criminal contempt - he does not have the same authority for civil contempt."
He can instruct the federal Marshalls not to arrest the contemptee.
That's a fair point. But what if the DOJ attorneys are not lackies? What if they advise their client to take a particular course of action and the client (president) declines the advise and directs s different course of action? I suppose the attorney can drop the client by resigning? That course of action has obvious ramifications. In the extreme, what if all the DOJ attorneys resign? Who represents the US government? In the end I stand by the fact courts have no police power. We can play this game of chicken. But the courts are on a moped and the executive branch is in an Abrams tank in the end.
BTW, hard for me to see.the actions taken against trump 1.0 attorneys standing. It would be interesting if the DOJ starting investigating judges at all levels and state prosecutors. I think that will likely happen. In the end the guns and badges win. Not black robes and lawyers.
What if they didn't? I can imagine if I am a young guy or gal in my first job outside of law school. I casually mention that the President has the option---which we are all talking about---to defy the court's order because they have no power of the purse or sword. I am advocating for my client's interest and again saying nothing that any poster in this thread is not saying.
The prior poster would take my livelihood away. These liberal bar investigators love their power but why should they have it? After all Trump is the one they are after. But since they cannot reasonably order him jailed they will go after a young lawyer's license. That's not remotely fair.
These liberal bar investigators
I's like a reflex.
Maybe it's different in West Virginia, but in the rest of the country a lawyer's ethical duties as an officer of the court outweigh his duties to his client. If the client orders the lawyer to do something illegal, or tells the lawyer he's going to refuse to comply with the court, the lawyer's obligation is to withdraw from representation/resign. Not to go to the court and say, "My client doesn't feel like complying; shrug, nothing I can do."
No federal court, even SCOTUS, can do much to check a president.
Well, a president that doesn't follow the law, perhaps.
Even Trump hasn't gone all in regarding simply refusing to follow all courts up to and including SCOTUS. Until then, federal courts "check" a president and particularly various members of the executive branch, who again have not quite gone all in.
elections and impeachment
and 14A, sec. 3. (and maybe we should toss in the 22A) ... so goes the theory.
Impeach the damn judge.
Before or after she’s imprisoned, deported, and murdered?
Obviously after, in order, she's murdered (by a 155mm howitzer), deported, and imprisoned.
Where do the snowplows come in?
yawn
I practice at the state level so I do not know what the actual federal rule on this point is, but to me it seems like a judge should have power to hold contempt proceedings regarding a court order violation while an appeal is pending or even after the appellate court vacates the order, so long as the violative conduct occurred before the appellate ruling vacating the order was actually announced. Otherwise, litigants would feel justified in disobeying court orders if they liked their odds of succeeding on appeal--some would be right, most would be wrong, and overall a massive dose of anarchy would be injected into the system. I see no reason why emergency orders should be treated any differently. Emergency orders are usually issued because some irreparable harm would otherwise occur prior to litigation on the merits, so the idea that they should not be enforced pending the outcome of an appeal defeats their purpose. If you get a court order that you think is erroneous, then you have to appeal and obey the order in the meantime. If you don't, then you should be held in contempt even if you prevailed in the appeal.
As for judges recusing themselves before holding the executive branch in contempt, I would be fine a rule that says the judge who holds contempt proceedings for a court order violation cannot be the same judge who issued the order as long as that rule applies to every party in every case, regardless of whether that party is a public or private entity or individual.