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Second Amendment Roundup: Supreme Court Should Resolve Proximate Cause in S&W v. Mexico
Illinois court shows need to lay the issue to rest.
As I posted here, the March 4 oral argument in Smith & Wesson Brands v. Estados Unidos Mexicanos appeared to go well for S&W and not well for Mexico. Mexico's lawsuit seeks to hold America's federally-licensed firearm industry responsible for the cartel violence that plagues Mexico. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) prohibits lawsuits against the gun industry for crimes committed by third parties.
PLCAA does allow an action in which [1] a manufacturer or seller "knowingly violated a State or Federal statute applicable to the sale or marketing of the product, and [2] the violation was a proximate cause of the harm for which relief is sought." It was suggested in oral argument that Mexico's aiding and abetting theory did not meet element [1], rendering it unnecessary to resolve [2]. Yet leaving the latter, the proximate-cause issue, in limbo will result in continuing legal uncertainty and ongoing attacks on the industry facilitated by courts that are allowing the most extreme theories of proximate cause in which remoteness is disregarded.
The latest example is the denial by Judge Jorge L. Ortiz of the motion to dismiss in Kelly Roberts v. Smith and Wesson Brands, Circuit Court 19th Judicial District, Lake County, Ill. (April 1, 2025). In 2022, Robert Crimo III murdered seven people and injured dozens more with an S&W rifle in Highland Park, Illinois. He has pleaded guilty and faces life in prison. His father pleaded guilty to reckless conduct for helping his son obtain the rifle while knowing of his mental health issues.
The lawsuit against manufacturer S&W, the distributor, and the retailer that sold the rifle is exactly the kind of case PLCAA was enacted to prevent. The Roberts plaintiffs alleged that S&W advertisements intentionally promote militaristic misuse of firearms, especially among young people. (Of course they don't.) S&W responded that "the claimed harm is the aggregate result of numerous intervening (including criminal) acts by third parties not under Smith & Wesson's control," and that "Plaintiffs fail to allege, as they must, that they even saw the Smith & Wesson advertisements they complain of, let alone that they were deceived by them."
The plaintiffs responded that inferences could be made that Crimo saw and was influenced by the ads because he played shooter video games and S&W ads somehow mimic such games. Judge Ortiz agreed that the inferences sufficed to show knowing violation of an Illinois law against engaging in deceptive and unfair practices, specifically by "promot[ing] a firearm-related product that encourages unlawful paramilitary activity." He held that "Plaintiffs have alleged sufficient facts to conclude that Smith and Wesson's marketing strategies of targeting younger demographics and promoting unlawful military type assaults created a foreseeable risk of injury to Plaintiffs."
"Factual causation," the court ruled, was established by "numerous allegations of unlawful marketing techniques and statutory authority that Smith and Wesson marketing and advertisements violated." "Legal cause" sufficed that "Smith and Wesson's unlawful conduct created a condition that foreseeably led to the shooter's criminal act." With conclusions like that, the proximate-cause requirement may as well be erased from PLCAA.
It goes without saying that it is sheer lunacy to claim that S&W ads encourage "unlawful paramilitary activity" and promote "military type assaults." But the purpose of such lawsuits, orchestrated by Everytown for Gun Safety, is to destroy America's lawful firearm industry. Making a mockery of PLCAA, not to mention the Second Amendment, is the game that's being played.
That's all the more reason for the Supreme Court definitively to resolve the proximate-cause issue in Smith & Wesson Brands v. Estados Unidos Mexicanos.
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Judge Jorge Ortiz is your typical Hispanic who only wants guns in the hands of his cucaracha cousin gangbangers.
TaioF920 is your typical white trash racist who doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. All he can tell you is that if people’s skin tone is different from his or their last name sounds funny to him, they must be really, really bad people.
You just demonstrated the definition of Prejudice
And TaioF920 didn't?
Let's compromise: They're both guilty.
And all three are idiots.
Not necessarily -- the question is the meaning of cucaracha.
It's not racist to say that the only persons a judge wants armed are criminals.
The PLCAA is a federal law. I assume that means the federal definition of "proximate cause" applies.
The Supreme Court has already rejected foreseeability as the test for proximate causation under federal statutes. Bank of Am. Corp. v. City of Miami, Fla., 581 U.S. 189, 202, 137 S. Ct. 1296, 1306, 197 L. Ed. 2d 678 (2017). Rather, there has to be “some direct relation between the injury asserted and the injurious conduct alleged.” Usually, the Supreme Court does not allow damages to go beyond the "first step" of a statutory violation.
So gun manufacturers should argue that the federal definition of proximate cause should apply, which would severely narrow their liability in all but the most direct cases.
PLCAA also allows suits sounding in negligence per se. I don't know whether the plaintiffs are attempting that route. It has its own obstacles, to be sure. A link by OP to the court decision would have been helpful.
You still have to show proximate causation. Although perhaps that could be under a state-law definition.
This reminds me of the Sherwin-Williams "cover the earth with paint" logo. Here, it's "flood the world with guns".
And dude, have you ever, like looked at your hands?
Okay.
Whose slogan is that?
Well, yeah.
Is there supposed to be a problem with the proliferation of civil rights?
Uh, the world is already flooded. There are enough guns out there to arm 11/12 people.
And as long as anyone has a gun, everyone needs a gun.
Just pass a law! That will keep guns out of the wrong hands. Has no one ever thought of that? Do I have to do all the thinking around here?
it is sheer lunacy to claim that S&W ads encourage "unlawful paramilitary activity" and promote "military type assaults."
Wrong. Neither Kelly Roberts nor Judge Ortiz are lunatics. They are conscious, calculated, bare-faced liars.
There's pounding on the law, pounding on the facts, and pounding on the table.
After this is resolved go after the fools that mounted this campaign. Fines, jail time, public service.
The Court should do a lot of things that they don't do, sadly.
And this isn't going to stop until there are serious penalties for it.
Lynchings?
No, sanctions for frivolous filings. Even if they can find a judge dishonest enough to rule in their favor, the fact remains that these lawsuits are directly contrary to the PLCAA, and everybody involved can be presumed to be aware of that.
Prior to the PLCAA, anti-gun groups had embarked on an explicit program of bankrupting the industry by bringing frivolous actions to impose litigation costs even though the actions would essentially all lose. The whole point of the PLCAA was to stop these actions from proceeding far enough to result in litigation costs.
If judges are going to permit the actions in defiance of the PLCAA, some other mechanism has to be found for stopping this tactic, and the obvious one is to sanction the people bringing the suits, and use the proceeds to make their victims whole.
Ideally you'd sanction the judges, too, but I don't think there's really any feasible mechanism for doing that, short of the Supreme court announcing that these actions are sufficiently abusive as to expose the judges in question to 42 U.S.C. § 1983 lawsuits.
And the Court isn't going to do that, judges protect their own.
Correct, judicial immunity is a huge problem.
When was it invented?
The Supreme Court "confirmed" the common law judge-made judicial absolute immunity in 1967, invented qualified immunity for all government employees the same year, and invented prosecutorial absolute immunity in 1976.
ETA: I have no cites, this was something I found out a few years ago, and it surprised me it was so recent.
Behold Exhibit A as to why judicial immunity is there.
Yes, Dumbasso, and lynchings.
Phoning it in from his government job on the couch at home.
This is modern America, we don't do lynchings as these are a relic of racism.
We can still tar and feather, run out on a rail, shoot, etc, though.
Loser pays. And not just attorney fees. Everything. Lost wages, travel expenses, everything that would not have been spent absent the case.
I personally think it shouldn't be "loser pays", it should be "loser's attorney pays"; I mean, seriously, who's the guy in the room who's supposed to be able to recognize a frivolous case when they see it? The guy who hired the lawyer?
No, it's the lawyer who is supposed to know. Why should the plaintiff be the one to pay, if their lawyer gave them bum advice?
No, the attorney is just another third party, another hired hand. By definition, they lose half their cases. Their winning cases would have to pay for the losing cases, which means the losers in those winning cases would be paying the winners in other cases. And the more expensive a case is, the less likely any attorney is going to risk it, even if he thinks it's a good case.
Unless the attorney has final say and can overrule his employer the client, he is just another hired hand and should not be at fault. Leave his abilities to Yelp.
Just keep it simple.
You have to distinguish between the attack and the defense. Defending against a lawsuit should never be considered frivolous, though the details of how you do it might be. But bringing the lawsuit? Yeah, we need to sanction that when the lawsuit never should have been brought.
"Unless the attorney has final say and can overrule his employer the client, he is just another hired hand and should not be at fault."
My understanding is that, not only can the attorney overrule his employer the client, he's ethically obligated to in many cases.
Ethics, Lawyers. What a novel idea.
Um, why did you skip from "loser" to "frivolous"? There is a loser in every case; that doesn't mean their cases were frivolous.
Yes, you might not want loser pays in close cases. Maybe.
But, why the hell should the winner ever pay?
If the loser doesn’t pay, and the winner doesn’t pay… where does the payment come from?
So you think the lawyers for Smith & Wesson should have to pay Everytown?
As I said above, I distinguish between the side that's attacking, and the side that's defending. The defending side has little choice about whether a lawsuit occurs, the attacking side has every choice.
Smith and Wesson filed the motion to dismiss that got denied here. That was their choice, not Everytown’s. Why shouldn’t Smith & Wesson’s lawyers—the “ the guy[s] in the room who [are] supposed to be able to recognize” that the motion was going to be denied—foot the bill?
Why shouldn't S&W's lawyers have realized the judge going to flatly ignore on point law? Gee, I don't know, maybe because they didn't go in assuming a corrupt judge?
You’re *this* close to getting it!
No, S&W's lawyers are entitled to assume the the judge will faithfully apply applicable law and precedent. This motion wasn't throwing something at the wall and hoping it would stick, it wasn't a long shot. Given an impartial judge, it was a slam dunk.
And, again S&W was playing defense here, it was the plaintiffs who decided to start a lawsuit. And worse, a lawsuit which aims at suppressing exercise of an enumerated constitutional right, which in my book says they get no slack.
Filing a motion to dismiss does not change you from a defendant to a plaintiff.
As the late great Tuco Benedicto Juan Maria Ramirez (AKA "The Rat") said,
"When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk"
Frank
These lawsuits, and the judges who allow them to proceed, do far more than gun makers to encourage dangerous misuse of firearms. They abnegate the responsibility of criminals and try to shift that to unrelated third parties.
What an intelligent and insightful comment, you sure you're in the right place?
They do that for corrupt purposes. They want to promote the lawyer scam of tort litigation. The latter does nothing for safety. They want to maintain the state monopoly on weapons and on lawful violence. The state is, of course, 99% run by and for the lawyer profession.
There are many things that it would be nice to know. Indeed country is faced with many pressing legal questions. If the importance to the country of knowing now is determinative, why stop at just one additional issue? Why not use this case to offer opinions on a whole range of important topics equally unnecessary to decide the case at hand but equally important for the country to get clarity on? If the argument works for one additional issue, it ought to work equally for them all.
The judge wants to maintain the monopoly of the state on violence and on weapons. Problem is that the state is in utter failure at protecting the public.
Israel ended school shootings 50 years ago by arming its teachers. In Israel, victims shoot back.
Meanwhile, in Mexico, senior government officials take money from the cartels to do the cartels' work.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/mexicos-former-public-security-chief-convicted-in-u-s-drug-case
That's why they are so desperate to point fingers elsewhere.
Uh, like a year and a half ago a thing that happened suggests that no, they did no such thing.
Most Israelis are disarmed by government diktat. The pictures you see of people walking around with rifles are conscripts going to or from drill. Upon arriving home the rifle is locked up.
I'm pretty sure describing what happened a year and a half ago as a "school shooting" is a bit off.
And Israel does, in fact, arm at least some teachers.
But, yeah, they are a fairly left-wing country, and did get sucked into that whole "disarm the public as much as possible" program, which they are only reluctantly giving up on.
When I was in Haifa in 1983 a girl I met asked me to get her cigarettes from her handbag. I had to move the Uzi to get them. She was a reservist on her Duty stint. They were required to be armed at all times and able to respond.
It's mostly M16's now, still nothing like seeing a giggle of young Israeli girls at Cafe Joe, enjoying a Cappuccino with their rifles slung over their backs.
Is the uzi unsafe to fire -- i.e more likely to shoot yourself?
They should hold the politicians who illegalized drugs financially accountable. It is the equivalent of price supports and command and control economy by keeping competitors out except for connected cronies. Connected in spirit.
Sadly, strict enforcement of the Constitution was already on its way out when the 'war on drugs' began. Or else it would have required an amendment, like Prohibition.
The problem here is that there are very few 'shooter videos games' (boomer cringe - these people know nothing about the Vidya) feature 'unlawful paramilitary activity'. Most games *you are playing as a member of a military or other government organization'.
Can someone please link the actual court decision? I wasn't able to find/access it on the internet.
It was argued on 3/4/25, but hasn't been decided yet.
I assume Reallynotbob is talking about the Illinois case that this post is about, not the Supreme Court case referenced in the first paragraph.
At the 1st Circuit
Was that supposed to be a link?
Yeah, but then Reason went and screwed up the html, and my effort to fix the link in editing apparently failed.
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca1/22-1823/22-1823-2024-01-22.html
That’s the court of appeals decision in the case currently before the Supreme Court, not the Illinois trial court decision that Halbrook is talking about in the post.
Oh, that. I think it's a bit early to find it online.
I stand corrected, that's the one Noscitur posted. Man, what a mess.
https://everytownlaw.org/documents/2025/04/april-1-2025-order-on-smith-wessons-motion-to-dismiss.pdf/
Whoo, talk about making judges look bad...
Thank you!
I must have played a thousand hours of "Wolfenstein 3D" and "Doom" and haven't shot anyone yet, as far as anyone knows, no seriously, Dick Chaney's shot more people than I have, Alec Baldwin's killed more people (by shooting anyway*) than I have, and Ted Kennedy? I've yet to have a young woman asphyxiate (not drown, there's a difference) in my Car, although several I dated probably wished they had,
Frank
* It's a joke
“A long time ago, I was, like, semi-pro good at Quake.”
I haven't read anything. This is every law student's worst nightmare about proximate cause.
You see this fairly often in firearms litigation; Judges who really want the anti-gun litigants to prevail will say they're doing one thing, while actually doing another. Just going through the motions of applying existing precedent.
Usually it's been saying they're applying strict scrutiny or Bruen, but you can see they're actually just doing rational basis. Now they're starting to call remote causation "proximal", despite multiple causal steps.
"Now they're starting to call remote causation "proximal", despite multiple causal steps."
The actual decision shows this is false. The court applied existing Illinois precedent concerning proximate cause to determine--for the purposes of the pleading stage only--that the plaintiffs had alleged a sufficient causal link. In Illinois, the presence of an intervening criminal act does not necessarily break the chain of causation if the defendant took steps he knew/foresaw would induce the criminal act.
The Illinois doctrine represents a somewhat aggressive approach to proximate cause, to be sure. But the judge does not appear to be fabricating new doctrine.
It's aggressive enough to be pretextual in it's claim of proximity. It's basically at a "You knew that eventually some arsonist would get his hands on your product, but ran a gas station anyway!" level of foreseeing.
First, as Smith & Wesson pointed out, the Illinois Supreme Court has repeatedly rejected the argument that criminal misuse of a firearm is foreseeable enough to make gun manufacturers legally responsible. The court’s attempt to distinguish this precedent is pretty unpersuasive, because if anything the case for liability is much weaker. Having included the ads that they’re complaining about, it is easy to see that the suggestion that they could have had any causal role (much less a foreseeable one) in the commission of the crime is risible. They also offer no allegation whatsoever that the shooter even saw the ads (many of which aren’t even for the gun at issue). And of course he acquired and had with him guns made by other companies.
Finally, as Bored Lawyer notes, the “proximate cause” requirement is part of the federal law. Even if the judge is correct in his dubious conclusion that Illinois state law thinks this is sufficiently-alleged causation to establish tort liability, that quirk of state law shouldn’t defeat federal immunity.
Noscitur — Among firearms sold legally, how large would you put the percentage used to shoot someone illegally, before the manufacturer could be held liable? How big does that fraction have to be, before it becomes reasonably foreseeable? One in 10,000? One in 1,000? One in 500? One in 100? How big is too big to ignore?
It should be something north of 99% before a manufacturer can be held liable for illegal uses.
Consider the alternative. You invent this great drug that will save the lives of a comparatively small number of people with a horrible, debilitating disease. It's cheap, highly effective and only side-effect is that it causes mild euphoria. How widely does it have to be abused by third-parties before you will pull your drug from the market and deny those afflicted from their only cure?
The manufacturer should never be held liable under any circumstances whatsoever?