The Volokh Conspiracy
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The LSAT Is Not What It Used to Be
Derek Muller explores recent changes in the test, how it is administered, and how it affects US News rankings.
The Law School Admission Test (LSAT) has undergone significant changes over the past two decades--changes in its composition, administration, and score reporting--that may be affecting its reliability as a predictor of law school performance. In addition, US News has changed its weighting and treatment of LSAT scores, altering the incentives for law schools to prioritize the LSAT scores of applicants, though it is not clear many law schools have altered their admissions practice accordingly (at least not yet).
Derek Muller explores these changes and their implications in a long and highly informative post at Excess of Democracy. It begins:
The LSAT is an important predictor of law school success. It does a very good job of predicting who will perform well in law school. The higher your LSAT score, the higher your law school grades are likely to be. It is not perfectly correlated, but it is well correlated. When combined with your undergraduate grade point average (UGPA)—yes, regardless of your major, grade inflation, school disparities, and all that—it can even further predict law school success.
But the LSAT has changed over the years. As has its weight in the USNWR rankings. Many law school admissions practices, however, look at the LSAT like it's 2005—like the test scores resemble what they did back then, and like the USNWR rankings care about them like they did back then. A lot has changed in a generation.
Muller summarizes some of these changes, the aggregate effect of which may be to reduce the LSAT's predictive value.
The LSAT, as a raw score, is less predictive of ability than it was 20 years ago. That is, a 170 or a 160 means less than it did 20 years ago. It may still be predictive in the aggregate. That is, a 170 means a higher likelihood of success than a 160. But there are error rates in that 170 that were unknown 20 years ago—the 170 likely overstates the "true" value compared to 20 years ago. Relatively speaking, and in terms of its validity as a statistical matter, it's still valuable—it just has a different value than before.
Likewise, schools have continued to rely on the LSAT but used it in a way that makes it less predictive than it is designed to be—by relying on the highest score, for instance, or by refusing to use the index score. This is exacerbated by the fact that LSAC allows more retakes than it did a generation ago, and it allows cancellation of scores in mechanisms unknown a generation ago.
More recent developments, including the acceleration of extra time test-takers and the dropping of logic games from the LSAT, promise to further dilute the predictive validity of the LSAT in yet-unknown ways.
For more detail, and a discussion of how law schools have (and perhaps should) respond to some of these changes, read the whole thing.
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There has a been a general decline in the predictive power of all these college entry tests. I think because they were telling some influential people things they were committed to denying.
Or because they were not telling some influential people things that they were committed to discovering.
Oh, right: Like that would really explain a decline in predictive power. Did you really think that response made even the tiniest bit of sense?
But, sort of: Those influential people were committed to discovering certain things whether or not they were true, and warping the tests to accomplish that reduced their predictive power, which predictive power was the only point in giving the tests to begin with.
Some people, when a measuring instrument doesn't tell them what they wanted to hear, break the instrument, rather than accepting that reality didn't conform to their desires.
Is there evidence that the LSAT is less predictive now than it used to be? Just skimming the excerpts above, it seems like the author thinks that it might do so, but there doesn't seem to be evidence that LSAT scores are less correlated to success in law school than before.
It would explain a decline in predictive power in terms of law school grades, if the people using the LSAT results want to use them for something other than predicting whether someone will score high grades.
1. Unsupported assertion.
2. Unsupported causal connection to speculated bad faith by ze libs.
Always and evermore.
They added an essay section years ago to the SAT, making it less g-loaded
And those who diluted the predictive power of these tests might not have been acting in bad faith, but they were definitely--at least in large part-- acting in pursuit of schmaltzy, erroneous lib beliefs and moral commitments
LSAT isn't an IQ test.
IQ kinda sucks anyhow.
That's not schmaltz, it's just not techbro soft eugenics bullshit.
Anyone who thinks you can distill intelligence into 1 variable has some cognitive failures to begin with.
And then they got rid of it.
They eliminated logic from the LSAT, but was logic ever really required for law?
That's illogical.
As Riders in the Sky are fond of saying, if the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle.
But they have the much more useful "Argumentative Writing" (wait till you see my "Vicious Circle" emogi!)
So glad I just had to know Physics, Chemistry, Biology (the worst part, so unorganized, everything from Mitochondria to Classifications of different Ferns, classmate of mine swears he had to apply an extra year because he got Mitosis/Meiosis confused (and then there's "Myosis" which isn't related to the first 2 at all) But hey, don't you want a Doctor who (used to be able to) synthetize N-Butyl- Ether from a pile of leaves?
Frank
Dibutyl ether is obtained from dehydration of 1-butanol with sulfuric acid as a catalyst and dehydrating agent
Industrially, dibutyl ether can be obtained by dehydration of 1-butanol on alumina at 300 °C.
Sulfuric Acid, the Vinegar (bad analogy, it's Acetic Acid, a much weaker Acid) of Organic Chemistry, there's nothing it can't make a little better
Frank
Chemistry is logical - ultimately. But so is history. The problem is that you need too much knowledge base for the subject to make sense, at least to me, in HS, or maybe even in college. When I was an undergraduate, all the pre-meds memorized like crazy to pass Organic Chemistry. My brother comes along and aces it, by actually understanding it. He ended up doing significantly better on the LSAT than his Math SATs, because he wasn’t as pushed for time. I am the older brother, but wish that I had had his experience with O Chem, because his greater Chem knowledge gave him opportunities that as a patent attorney that I didn’t have (most of us stay out of Chemical and genetic patent applications, giving opportunities to those who can do the work). On the flip side, I took more risks, so ended up working with more interesting technology long run.
I still can't figure out how to translate current LSAT scores to the 200-800 format they had in my day. Are there at least percentile charts for both?
The 120-180 scale was basically the same as the 200-800 scale, just add a 1 in front and drop a zero off the back. Not sure why they did that.
Here's a percentile table showing data over the years. There's been a bit of inflation there. A 170 used to be 97.6 and now it's 95.6.
https://www.cambridgelsat.com/resources/data/lsat-percentiles-table/
Is it actual inflation, or are people preparing more?
At the risk of dating myself, what would a 39 correspond to today?
As someone with no knowledge of the LSAT, is there any score highly likely to get someone admitted to say, Georgetown, if he graduated Magna Cum Laude from Brandeis 15 years ago, and wants to switch from tech work which he has been doing since?
https://www.juriseducation.com/blog/georgetown-acceptance-rate
Looks like 171 at minimum. 175+ would be better.
Not particularly easy to achieve. Prolly would need to get a score in the top 10% of all LSAT takers in that test period. But you can take steps to get a higher LSAT score with hard work and dedication. (mainly practice tests and LSAT prep courses). LSAT isn't a general knowledge type exam. It's a "know what they are going to ask and how" type exam. I.e, learn how the test works to get the best score.
" It's a "know what they are going to ask and how" type exam. I.e, learn how the test works to get the best score. "
Undergrad GPA is even more of this -- even notice how the younger siblings do better in college? Their older siblings tell them how to game various professors.
A couple of quick thoughts:
1) Georgetown also accepts the GRE (and GMAT). For someone with an engineering background, the math part of the GRE might be a better fit than the logic portions of the LSAT.
2) Seems weird to suggest you need a 171 "at minimum" when that's the median. Half of the admitted students had worse than 171!
3) In general, someone with an interesting previous career is probably more attractive than a typical PoliSci major coming directly out of undergrad. Especially with solid undergrad academics, I'd imagine someone with a good career trajectory pre law school would have a much easier time getting admitted than someone with an equivalent LSAT score and GPA coming straight from undergrad or with a year or two as a paralegal, etc.
The prompt i was responding to was something along the lines of 'what is the LSAT score needed to *highly likely* get admitted to Georgetown"
If you think it highly likely to be admitted to a top tier law school with a score on the low end... i would simply disagree.
Anything is possible. Non traditional students are different types of applicants and I don't work in admissions. Just trying to answer a question.
As someone who scored above 99.6 percentile and then went on to study the test in even much greater depth in order to teach it:
1. The accommodations issue with the analytical reasoning section (also called logic games) was a lawsuit brought by blind people. (Logic games involves drawing/mapping things to visually deduce answers).
On one hand, I mourn the loss of logic games and I'm not sure the test should be changed like this for accommodations issues.
On the other hand, the logic games section was widely recognized as the most "learnable" section of the test. At least in the past, I think LSAC was quite careful and good with their research. I find their conclusion plausible that removing logic games doesn't have an impact.
2. They used to have 2 LR sections, 1 RC, 1 LG (plus a 5th unscored section for testing questions, takers didn't know which was which). Apparently in 2020 they went from 2 LR to 1 LR, and now there was only 3 scored sections total instead of 4. Now with dropping LG they are going back to 2 LR. I actually think the 2020 change was worse than this 2024 change, and the 2024 change might even be an improvement.
3. The extra time accommodations seems like a growing scam and shouldn't be allowed, IMO.
Overall, I disagree with the author's statement:
"The LSAT has fundamentally changed in its content, and it suggests that scores today are not truly comparable to scores in previous eras, and that such scores will be less predictive of success."
Removing games is not a fundamental change in content. I assume they are still doing the other sections the same as they did before. If you look at the table I posted above, there has been some score inflation, but if you go by the percentiles, scores today should be comparable to scores in previous eras. But, that's apart from the extra time thing, which is a big problem in my opinion.
EDIT: The retake issue is another aspect. I don't think it's necessarily a big deal, as the article says, 2 pt improvement on average. But I'd go back to the old rule of averaging.
As I note in my post below, learning how to master the logic games is the biggest reason I raised my score from 165 on the first practice test I took (cold test on Day 1 of my LSAT prep course) to a 177 on the one and only real test I took. So I agree it was the most learnable, and that made all the difference in which law school I was able to get into.
Right. Although if you assume everyone else was learning that section too, then you could say it was the other sections that really allowed you to do well. Acing the logical reasoning and the reading comprehension is very difficult for most takers regardless of how much they study.
I didn't take a course, but studied on my own for about 3 weeks after taking the free Kaplan practice test cold (and scoring pretty low). At the 175+ range, you can only miss a few questions. Once I was familiar with the test, I found that I was doing well on everything, except logic games were a bit inconsistent because you had to make sure you sort of cracked each game and sometimes they were different from others/unpredictable. I ended up doing all the games that existed from prior tests and at that point I was comfortable with the games.
Overall, I don't think removing games is necessarily a big deal, and certainly not a fundamental change to the content.
It makes the test less fun!
The reason why the extra time is justified is because in order to get it, you have to have $5K-$10K with which to buy a diagnosis, even a legitimate diagnosis. Well, someone with financial resources like this inherently is going to do better in law school because things like food and rent aren't going to be pressing issues.
I took the LSAT a single time more than 20 years ago, was fortunate enough to score high (177), and that is absolutely what got me into a T14 law school back then (where I did well; not great—I’ve had a solid legal career since then that allowed me to be the sole earner for a large family, but I wasn’t getting federal court clerkships or getting on a partner track at Skadden or anything like that). And the logic games were a life saver, as in my experience that is where one could improve the most through courses and tips and practice. (I took Kaplan prep I think, and in Day 1 they give you a cold test. I scored 165. The course and the practice really boosted my proficiency on the logic games, and that is largely what allowed me to raise my score to 177 on the real test).
I had/have a condition that today would easily allow me to get extra test taking time, but it didn’t even occur to me to seek it out back then, and I’m glad I didn’t.
If a quarter, a third, or more of test takers are getting extra time (on the SAT, LSAT, Bar exam, etc.), I just don’t see how the tests are fair between the group that didn’t get extra time, and all those who did.
The whole point of the LSAT was the time factor. With enough time, almost anyone could solve any logic game. Extra time seems like a huge, unfair boost to any test taker.
wvattorney13 — I presume you are neurotypical. Some folks who are not neurotypical learn to solve problems in ways which might boggle you. If you were forced to use those ways, you might beg for extra time, and likely struggle anyway.
More generally, the educational establishment confronts a cost dilemma, because not everyone is neurotypical. The most efficient cost solution is simply to deny education to the atypical minority, and educate the others. That was tried. It turned out socially costly, and horrendously unjust.
So reform followed, and school systems got required by law to accommodate the non-neurotypical with methods tailored for them. School administrators hated that. They thought it took money from people with real potential, and wasted it on others with less promise.
But here and there, some administrators dissented, and took seriously a mission to diversify teaching methods. I can tell you what happened in Massachusetts. Statewide standardized tests showed that at every grade level, in every subject, classes of non-typical kids could be found who excelled the medians turned in by the typical kids.
How could that happen? Consider for instance, when a kid with an innate deficit in spacial reasoning tries to learn geometry, the usual dumbed-down geometry may be baffling. It was curriculum designed and tested for kids with typical spacial perception. But if you have a spacial deficit, and good skills otherwise, you get an incentive to solve spacial problems logically. Presto! Euclidean proofs judged too demanding for the typical kids become easy fare for kids formerly disadvantaged by curricula not designed for them.
Practical evidence that approach could work became common enough that the old guard resister administrators found themselves on the defensive. But it was never popular politically, because it appeared to add expense, to tailor so much curriculum to kids with special needs. Nobody ever asked the alternative question—how much would it cost to make everyone learn by the only method capable to educate everyone alike—the method of the special needs curriculum, based on individualized education plans. Much more, obviously.
So special education remains politically fraught. But in the meantime some kids who previously would have been denied education altogether get to graduate with high honors from some of the most competitive colleges in the nation.
That seems wise to me. How does it strike you?
The LSAT does not care about the "way" you solve problems — just whether you solve them, and how quickly.
Maybe LSAT is perfect and maybe doing well means you would be a good lawyer and doing bad means you would be a bad lawyer. That answers nothing for the vast number neither great or terrible. Typical academic bullshit. What was wrong with the guild/apprentice approach? Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams, learned the law through apprenticeships, studying under established legal professionals.
If we can look at teachers , we see the law school phenomenon more plainly
“In short, some of the least qualified students, taught by the least qualified professors in the lowest quality courses supply most American public school teachers.”
― Thomas Sowell
How did Biden (BOTTOM 10of his law school -- and that SYRACUSE!!!) become President. ANd Kamala, so stupid that the ACLU and Supreme Court rebuked her on the same issue
How Kamala Harris Earned Rebukes from ACLU and SCOTUS on Privacy
https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2024/08/22/how_kamala_harris_earned_rebukes_from_aclu_and_scotus_on_privacy_1053395.html
I spent years in the private sector and neither one of them would have escaped with their life in the corporate world.
Go to a tactical meeting and point to the sky for Cloud storage. A MINDLESS IDIOT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liL2VXYNyus
FOOLS already but greater fools for having been trained in law
It's pretty funny that the MAGA crowd talk about Trump Derangement Syndrome when here we have someone trying to use a discussion about LSAT scoring to complain about two people who are basically out of political life at this point.
LSAT 2028
Question 1: Are you a Progressive?
If "Yes", continue to Question 2.
If "No", turn in your test now. You have failed.
I don't want to kinkshame, but this kind of open aching for political oppression is kind of unseemly to post about in public.