The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Gorsuch's Dissent in Death Penalty / Religious Objection Case
In Tuesday's Hoffman v. Westcott, the Court denied a stay of execution; Justices Sotomayor, Kagan, and Jackson would have granted a stay, but didn't write an opinion; and Justice Gorsuch dissented, for himself:
The State of Louisiana plans to execute Jessie Hoffman tonight. Mr. Hoffman is a Buddhist. And he argues that the State's chosen method of execution—nitrogen hypoxia—violates his rights under the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000. Nitrogen hypoxia will, he says, substantially burden his religious exercise by interfering with his meditative breathing as he dies. No one has questioned the sincerity of Mr. Hoffman's religious beliefs. Yet the district court rejected his RLUIPA claim anyway based on its own "find[ing]" about the kind of breathing Mr. Hoffman's faith requires.
That finding contravened the fundamental principle that courts have "no license to declare … whether an adherent has 'correctly perceived' the commands of his religion." The Court of Appeals failed to confront the district court's apparent legal error—or even to mention the RLUIPA claim Mr. Hoffman pressed on appeal. Perhaps that claim ultimately lacks merit. But the Fifth Circuit's unexplained omission leaves this Court poorly positioned to assess it. I would therefore grant the stay application and petition for writ of certiorari, vacate the judgment of the Fifth Circuit, and remand for that court to address Mr. Hoffman's RLUIPA claim in the first instance.
Note that Justice Gorsuch was speaking only about the district court's decision to interpret for itself what Buddhism demands (which is indeed something secular courts aren't allowed to do under First Amendment precedent), not the ultimate bottom line question of whether this form of execution could indeed be applied to Hoffman.
Here, by the way, is what seems to be the relevant passage from the district court decision:
The Court finds that meditative breathing is an exercise attendant to practicing Hoffman's chosen faith of Buddhism. The Court dismissed Hoffman's RLUIPA claim finding that substituting nitrogen for atmospheric air does not substantially burden. Hoffman's ability to breath. Nothing in the evidence changes this conclusion. The record evidence established that nitrogen is an inert, tasteless, colorless, odorless gas.
"[A] government action or regulation creates a 'substantial burden' on a religious exercise if it truly pressures the adherent to significantly modify his religious behavior and significantly violate his religious beliefs." Plaintiff responds that Hoffman's "sincerely held religious beliefs are substantially burdened not because he will be unable to breathe" but because he will be forced to breath nitrogen instead of air. At the preliminary injunction hearing, two Buddhist clerics testified that air (not nitrogen) is necessary for meditative breathing. They cited no religious text or instruction by the historical Buddha in support of this proposition.
The Court finds that Buddhism calls its adherents to a ritual of breathing rhythmically to achieve a mediative state, what the clerics referred to as "zen." This is analogous to Western religions' practice of prayer. The Plaintiff admits that he will have the ability to breathe in the nitrogen as it is administered. The Court finds there is no substantial burden to his exercise of rhythmic breathing. The Court denies reconsideration of this claim.
This strikes me as indeed unconstitutional, just as it would be unconstitutional for a judge to reject a Christian's religious exemption claim by saying that he and his experts "cited no religious text or instruction by Jesus" in support of a particular view: "Courts are not arbiters of scriptural interpretation" (Thomas v. Review Bd. (1981)). The questions under religious exemption regimes such as RLUIPA are whether the government have substantially burdened a claimant's sincere belief, and then whether the government may still justify the burden by showing that it's the least restrictive means of serving a compelling government interest. They cannot include the judge asking what the real beliefs of the relevant religion are.
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Well on the brighter side, although Hoffman won't receive any money, he will receive total consciousness, which is nice.
Not a big tipper, the judge
The Judge didn't want to give Hoffman the Death Penalty, but felt he owed it to him.
I agree that the district court’s analysis is improper (although I also think the claim is meritless).
I am not sure why Gorsuch think the Fifth Circuit is better able to analyze the claim in the first instance than the Supreme Court.
I can't see any merit to the case, what if my religion says I have a right to life?
I actually can't think of any religion where the portal to the other world would, other conciousness, rebirth, not be conceivably impacted by the manner in which you leave this world.
If someone's religion requires them to live in a natural environment, wooden house, off the grid, does that mean their religion needs to accommodated and they can't live in prison?
"I actually can't think of any religion where the portal to the other world would, other conciousness, rebirth, not be conceivably impacted by the manner in which you leave this world."
Don't you have to die in battle to get into Valhalla? And don't Muslims get some extra benefits in heaven if they die during Jihad?
There’s a two step process. The first is whether the person’s religious practices are substantially burdened at all. If not, then obviously there’s no claim. But if they are, that doesn’t mean the claimant automatically wins: the government just has to adequately justify the burden.
Well, noscitur, it all goes back to 2020 for me. All these Jew-hatin', beer-swillin', mask-averse patriots were suddenly so religious that they couldn't abide with protocols that could save their neighbors.
As you can see, 'sincerely held beliefs' are a cornucopia subjective fantasy world where anything goes. Who are we to question whether Drackman has always needed child pornography as a sacrament?
How does this religious claim get so much defference while religious beliefs for vaccines or vaccine-like therapeutics dont?
1. The claim didn't get so much deference: Hoffman lost at district court, lost at the court of appeals, and lost at the Supreme Court. Only Justice Gorsuch dissented on these grounds.
2. Of course, the logic of Justice Gorsuch's argument would also apply to objections to vaccination -- and courts have generally indeed so applied it. See, e.g., Thornton v. Ipsen Biopharmaceuticals, Inc. (1st Cir. 2025):
3. Of course, this doesn't mean vaccination objectors will win: It may be that (under RLUIPA, RFRAs, and similar rules applicable to governments) the government can show that requiring vaccination -- even over religious objections -- is the least restrictive means of serving a compelling government interest. Likewise, it may be that, under Title VII (the rule applied to employers) the employer can show that allowing religious exemptions from vaccination rules will pose an "undue hardship." But at the threshold determination of what counts as a substantial burden, vaccination objectors do generally get the benefit of the rule Justice Gorsuch enunciates. (I say "generally" because there might be some judges who err on this score in vaccination cases -- as they did in the execution case.)
Thank you for the great response and clarifying that for me.
Very much my pleasure!
Because Congress passed a law specifically applying to prisoners.
All those advanced degrees and they forgot to teach you spelling and contractions.
Thank you for pointing out I don't often proofread my comments. I probably should.
"They cannot include the judge asking what the real beliefs of the relevant religion are."
The excerpt includes the judge noting two clerics testified air is necessary for meditative breathing. That does sound like it can be a religious claim. The judge disputing their testimony is dubious. For instance, there doesn't need to be a written text for it to be protected religious belief. It can even be idiosyncratic.
OTOH, opinion seems to partially be a statement of fact:
The Plaintiff admits that he will have the ability to breathe in the nitrogen as it is administered. The Court finds there is no substantial burden to his exercise of rhythmic breathing. The Court denies reconsideration of this claim.
Anyway, he was executed. I read an account of the execution but it is not clear if he tried to "rhythmic breath" as he died. Is there an account that addresses that?
"it is not clear if he tried to "rhythmic breath" as he died"
You are not that dumb, it was all just a stall tactic.
One witness account included this tidbit:
The Rev. Reimoku Gregory Smith, the Buddhist spiritual adviser Hoffman chose to accompany his death, knelt on a rug from a few feet away, rarely taking his eyes off Hoffman.
("Jessie Hoffman's final moments inside Louisiana's execution chamber at Angola")
Multiple people who raised religious claims regarding how they wanted to die took advantage of the ability to do so using specific religious exercises. For instance, a past case involved the right to have a minister lay hands on a person as they died. It was done.
Remember that death row conversions are always fake, always.
That is an impressive level of assurance on the inability of people to convert, sometimes while being on death row for decades.
I will leave the gospel account of one such conversion on the cross alone. I acknowledge that is dubious accuracy.
Bob is just so cynical he just can’t imagine anyone else being sincere, even under difficult circumstances. Basically he’s saying what he would do in a similar circumstance. Which, unsurprisingly, doesn’t reflect the whole of the human experience.
Nitrogen is air.
Wait till you find out what Soylent Green is
Kazinski : "Nitrogen is air"
Nitrogen is 79% of air, with oxygen 21% and a smattering of other gases at a miniscule percentage. Scuba divers well know those figures as they're key to other factors such as partial pressure limits on oxygen toxicity and (therefore) allowable percentages of Nitrox mixes with enhanced levels of O2.
I won't even bring up various forms of Trimix adding (typically) helium to reduce the levels of nitrogen under pressure, limit nitrogen narcosis, and reduce your off-gassing hang times when you have to pull deco. Trimix is way, way, way above my paygrade. (as are rebreathers, which automatically maximize your gas mix efficiency per depth and recycle the O2 from each exhalation).
I think Kazinski was questioning why Buddhist breathing was fine with 79% N2, but not 100%. Can a Buddhist use Trimix for proper meditative breathing? 90% N2? 100% O2? 79% Argon, 20% O2? Tibetan monks at altitude are breathing an atmosphere that is the same composition, but quite a bit thinner than at sea level ... is that still kosher (to mix religions!)?
If I am a serial killer, and the religion I adopted after sentencing prohibits needles, hanging, firing squads, asphyxiation, electrocution, defenestration, gas chambers, etc, etc, what is the just thing to do then?
The obvious problem is that, at some point in the execution process, you stop breathing. Which is obviously incomparable with ritual rhythmic breathing.
I wish the courts would stop tolerating the endless, completely meritless stall tactics in death penalty cases. 29 years to kill this guy. His victim only had 27 in total.
Buddhism allows rape and murder I guess. Too bad her mediation was interrupted.
It looks like he discovered Buddhism in prison. Remember that death row conversions are always fake, always.
Why do you favour executing the innocent?
He wasn't innocent.
That wasn’t the question.
LawTalkingGuy 28 minutes ago
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That wasn’t the question.
Yes it was -
No it wasn't. I didn't ask Bob about this chap, I asked him why he favoured executing the innocent based on his remark: "I wish the courts would stop tolerating the endless, completely meritless stall tactics in death penalty cases."
Every single last person who thinks along these lines favours executing the innocent even if they lack the wit to reason from their base statement.
Now, in principle, even a Missouri AG, or Clarence Thomas will claim that they don't favour executing the innocent, but every assertion that we need to speed up the process, get rid of stall tactics, etc., inevitably and provably will lead to the execution of the innocent. You may claim that it is not your intention, and I am sure that Bob's self-image is not one of a murderer, or accessory to one, but if it is the inevitable consequence, it's an acceptable consequence.
SRG2 24 minutes ago
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No it wasn't. I didn't ask Bob about this chap, I asked him why he favoured executing the innocent based on his remark: "I wish the courts would stop tolerating the endless, completely meritless stall tactics in death penalty cases."
SRG2 2 hours ago
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"Why do you favour executing the innocent?"
SRG - Yes it was the answer to the question you asked.
Did Bob actually say "I wish the courts would stop tolerating the endless, completely meritless stall tactics in death penalty cases."?
Nowhere did I say that this chap was innocent, and in fact on another thread today, I noted "Astonishing - for once they all seem to be guilty" including Hoffman in "they".
Still, now that I have clarified in what passes for your mind that I was asking the general question, do you agree with Bob's statement quoted above, or do you prefer that innocents not be executed?
Read your own fricking comments
I" did, Now try understanding them, fuckwit.
"Every single last person who thinks along these lines favours executing the innocent"
Not so. I'm really sympathetic to remotely plausible claims of innocence. I have my first edition of 'Actual Innocence' on the bookshelf.
What I have a lot less sympathy for is 'well, OK, McVeigh blew up a child care center, but lethal injection is just too painful a method'.
I am very against the death penalty.
But those collateral attacks are not the way. They are penny wise and pound foolish.
This one, though...faith based stuff seems more likely to me. Especially if it can be accommodated.
I have no objection to some reasonably short menu of convenient methods.
I don't think the condemned criminal necessarily gets to insist on death by defenestration during a full moon, even if their religion requires it. Otherwise my religion would require death by exhaustion via an endless harem.
How concerned are you about McVeigh's preference for some particular method?
Otherwise my religion would require death by exhaustion via an endless harem.
There is a joke where the punchline has the condemned man laughing as he says, "I make lollipops"
I mean, I'm against the whole thing so I figure if we can do some minor stuff to make even McVeigh more comfortable with the eternity he's about to face, then lets treat him as a human in that minor way.
But I also accept how much I'm in the minority.
And yes, of course, reasonable accommodations are what I'm talking. As with all religious accommodations.
The problem is that lawyers have a duty to an individual client in a high stakes life or death case. So it’s kind of hard to avoid the challenge everything strategy.
Also, it kind of worked in some places. Look at Ohio. Challenging the protocols there has meant 8 years without executions and legislators/exec officials coming around on the idea of getting rid of capital punishment all together. Other states aren’t trying as hard to execute people or pushing to bring it back because they know how costly it’ll be. But southern states are just determined to execute people, it’s practically a cultural thing at this point.
Yeah, I know.
It just kinda poisons the well for the larger enterprise of actual innocence claims.
What I have a lot less sympathy for is 'well, OK, McVeigh blew up a child care center, but lethal injection is just too painful a method'.
That's separate from complaining about delaying DP
It was stupid to execute McVeigh -- far better to let him rot somewhere.
Don't make him a maytr, and he might be willing to tell us something valuable in a decade or two.
As a fellow Gulf Wah Vet I understood where Tim was coming from, but didn’t object to his sentence(which he accepted like the Soldier he was)
Just because Janet Reno killed innocent women and children isn’t an excuse to do it also,
There, see how “Woke” I am?
Frank
I don't favor executing the innocent. In fact, I don't favor executing anyone.
That said, I am extremely doubtful that religious or 8th amendment challenges to specific execution methods/protocols does anything to prevent the execution of innocents.
So you have interviewed every single death row inmate to come to this conclusion? And then used your extensive training from being a, checks notes, transactional lawyer, to determine sincere belief in a certain faith?
Because I wasn't born yesterday like you.
Okay. But I have actually interacted with criminal defendants. And while they often lie, they are often sincere too. What similar experiences do you have that would make you better positioned to evaluate them than me?
Bob, you don't like due process generally, as I recall.
Because you wouldn't have been charged if you weren't a criminal type of person, eh?
Except for Trump, of course.
During four previous nitrogen gas executions in Alabama, the inmates gasped and thrashed about.
There is nothing about thrashing about in the account of Hoffman's execution, so maybe he was able to maintain "zen" or whatever religious thing he wanted to do.
One account I cited above noted:
His chest rose and he made a jerking motion.
A minute later, Hoffman's body shook and his fingers twitched. He appeared to pull at the arms of the table, which is bolted into the ceramic tile floor of the cinder block chamber.
Hoffman’s hands began to clench. His head stayed turned to his right. His breathing slowed.
Those are interesting accounts. In my personal experience with hypoxia (huffing too many helium balloons while trying to recite the Gettysburg address) I just went out like someone threw a switch. It was even more abrupt than the couple of second fadeout you get from general anesthesia. IIRC people who experience confined space accidents don't recall any unpleasantness, just sudden unconsciousness. I suspect whatever thrashing about happens is after unconsciousness.
The endless wrangling over methods seems odd to me. It's one thing to object to capital punishment on general moral grounds, or because of the possibility of erroneous convictions, but A)if someone did something horrible enough to justify execution in the first place then I don't really care even if the process is as unpleasant as a root canal, which certainly has me gripping the chair arms, and B)we routinely euthanize aged pets, and our dogs never seemed to suffer in the process. It's not like how to do that humanely is a big medical mystery.
The reference to a "root canal" doesn't clarify the level of pain and suffering you think is okay. What he experienced very well might be fine (though I cited it in the context of his religious exercise) but other cases involve much worse or the risk of much worse.
Now, some don't care. As to euthanizing pets, the process involved in voluntary euthanization of humans and coerced executions is not quite the same. Also, for some reason, states repeatedly seem to have problems with lethal injection* though Texas seems better than other states, maybe because of more practice.
==
* Different types of problems so just addressing shortages of better drugs will not address the problem necessarily.
Well, how about an opiate overdose? Does that involve an unacceptable level suffering in your view?
I don't know if opiate overdose is a practical method.
Lethal injection has been botched repeatedly & there is a serious concern in various cases that there is a serious threat to more than "root canal" level pain. I disagree with one comment it is all hot air.
The firing squad might be the safest method but it is opposed for other reasons. Overall, I'd add the "wrangling" is largely based on our culture's concern about respectful and benign deaths for all humans, even for despicable ones. It is an honorable thing for some. Death also has a sacred quality for many people.
I dunno. Junkies seem to manage. You don't need to find a vein, intra-muscular will work. It's no more painful than a covid vaccine.
As I have said, I get moral arguments against capital punishment, and the argument against risking executing the innocent. Those are orthogonal to arguing there is no sufficiently humane way. Addicts go to a lot of trouble to get enough opiates to reach unconsciousness, so it can't be all that unpleasant. And any veterinarian 'puts to sleep' mammals routinely and humanely. The argument that it's good enough for Fido but not murderers doesn't seem like an argument that is actually about finding a sufficiently humane method.
" level of pain and suffering you think is okay"
What was the level of pain and suffering that was okay for his victim?
How is this relevant? Would you say to a rapist being raped by guards "well, his victim got it worse!"? The government has to play by rules that, of course, bad guys don't.
Bob would indeed say that, so that doesn't really work as an argument.
Yeah fans of various Latin American dictatorships like Bob aren’t exactly known for recoiling at the state’s use of sexual violence as a tool of punishment.
Rapist dogs!
Correct. You make light of it. But it happened. And you support it. Because you’re a bad person.
I propose that capital punishment be carried out using the precise same means that the condemned used to murder their victim.
Why kind of person would agree to do such a thing?
Lots of them
There is a lot of pain and trauma during any surgery. Fortunately the patient is unaware of the pain due to anethesia. Same with lethal injection. Often lots of thrashing and showing of pain, yet still under anethesia.
There's a lot of pain and suffering with every surgery, sometimes even the patient gets some. Remember this old Orthopod, decided to only do foot procedures his last few years of practice, but had to have Polka playing (and not just for the patients under General, everyone got it) Sounded like a friggin Lawrence Welk show.
Frank
So would you negate a malpractice suit where the physio's did all manner of things to the patient while they were under anesthesia?
Your question is not relevent
Why not?
It’s incompetent, immaterial, immoral, and impotent(Ebonics)!
And you’re a Homo!
He’s claiming that he won’t be allowed to breathe.
It seems reasonable for the court to examine the facts of whether he will be able to breathe.
This is weird.
The only weird thing is that some people think courts should not examine the sincerity of a claim that air stops being air when it goes from 78% nitrogen to 100% nitrogen.
The judge didn’t even examine (much less reject) the sincerity of his belief. She rejected the theological soundness of it.
When they talk of air aren't they talking about the Earth's atmosphere which is not 100% nitrogen?
Ok, so you think that in general courts should examine religious sincerity concerning scientific facts.
He claimed that the difference was religiously-significant (and presented witnesses who agreed). I’ll allow that that belief doesn’t make a lot sense to me, but it’s not any less sensible than any number of other religious beliefs that people seem to find largely unremarkable.
In light of the strength of opposition to capital punishment, I am sure you will always be able to find witnesses who will testify to anything in order to stop an execution.
People should leave Breathing to the Professionals, “Breathing” consists of 2 separate components, “Ventilation” and “Oxygenation” leave out either one and you’ll be leaving this moral coral, like pronto, man, dig? (Been watching Dobie Gillis reruns)
The late Mr Hoffman was able to Ventilate just fine, it was the Hypoxia that killed Cock Robbin
Frank
Out of all the methods of execution, nitrogen hypoxia is the least likely to burden meditative breathing. Methinks the guy just does not want to get executed.
He offered drugs used in aid-in-dying or the firing squad as possible alternatives. FWIW.
We could avoid all these problems if we just got rid of the death penalty, which, with very few exceptions, serves no purpose that outweighs its drawbacks. I have no problem with life without parole, and as long as that's an option, the death penalty has outlived its usefulness.
The fanatics are already attacking life without parole.
Plus, death is the only just punishment for those who murder.
So you’d be okay with executing Derek Chauvin?
The autopsy did not support the states theory of death.
Jury and court of appeals disagreed. Which is usually the measure for such things. Especially in Bob’s world.
Do you really think he got a fair trial?
I’d wager his trial was fairer than most. A lot of people get sent away on much more circumstantial or shakier evidence.
With crowds outside yelling at the court. With politicians threatening vengeance. Yes, very fair trial. About as fair as a black man in Mississippi in the 1930s. And two wrongs don’t make a right.
LawTalkingGuy 24 minutes ago
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"Jury and court of appeals disagreed. "
The fact the jury found him guilty of murder does not change the fact that the forensic evidence did not support the state's theory of cause of death.
Okay. But unfortunately in our system that’s what counts. There’s tons of shitty murder connections out there. Bob wants them all executed. That’s why I asked.
What lesson do you take from this exchange, out of curiosity?
Oh, look. Today he's a coroner.
Did he murder someone?
According to a jury and the court of appeals, yes.
Happened to Leo Frank also (no relation, OK, maybe if you go back 5,000 years), a lot of similarities in the cases actually
Yes. Chauvin killed Floyd with malice, and demonstrated a complete indifference to life. For that, he deserves the death penalty.
It doesn't matter that Floyd was a POS dirtbag.
Floyd died of a drug overdose. He was in severe medical distress before the cops touched him. Chauvin was only trying to help him. If Chauvin wanted to kill him, he would not have called the ambulance, and he would not have killed with spectators recording it.
More likely, floyd died of lack of oxygen due to the fluid in the lungs with prevented the exchange of oxygen through the Alveoli.
The buildup of fluid in the lungs was evidenced by the foam coming out of his mouth prior to the police putting him in the police car. He later crawled out the other side
The build up of fluids was likely due to the drug overdose.
Remember, joe is an accountant.
and Sheena is a Punk Rocker, what's your point?
"So you’d be okay with executing Derek Chauvin?"
Was he convicted of the degree of murder that permits the death penalty? Then sure.
I think we all know that the death penalty is for the most serious intentional murder, which goes by various names like "first degree" "capital" or in Ohio "aggravated" murder. But I think you think the Chauvin question is a good "gotcha" because I just wrote "murder".
It is a gotcha. And a good one too. I already got you to backtrack from your initial position by merely positing the question. If you meant something else you should have said it. It’s not my fault you didn’t choose your words more carefully. And seeing as you’re in a profession where word choice matters a great deal, you’d think you’d be better at it.
Its a blog comment, not a brief or a treatise.
I did not backtrack, everyone, including you, knew what I meant. But you did a"gotcha", congrats, you get a cookie.
“I did not backtrack”
Yes you did. You specified types of murder that are capital eligible in response. That’s narrower than your original assertion. That’s a classic backtrack.
“everyone, including you, knew what I meant.”
No. We don’t, actually. Considering your stated opposition to limits on the death penalty and other criminal justice/political opinions, why would anyone think that you meant first degree or aggravated murder when you said “murder?”
“It’s a blog comment, not a brief or a treatise.”
I mean it’s a legal blog. But even so, the degrees of offenses, especially for homicides, aren’t that difficult. It doesn’t take a lot of effort to be accurate with your language here.
The idea that you’d only be able to identify offense levels when working hard on a brief or treatise is very telling about your general abilities!
Degrees of offenses WRT illegal homicides are difficult to discus briefly (as one does in a comment section on a blog). For example, an act which is a "high" level of manslaughter in one state can be a "low" level of murder in another state. With the 50 states and the federal government, one has to examine and deal with at least 51 sets of laws.
Or consider Georgia which I believe has both a crime of Malice Murder and Felony Murder (but no "First Degree Murder") - the first being the only one eligible for the death sentence while in other states First Degree murder is eligible for the death sentence. In some states "aggravated circumstances" are needed to elevate a First Degree Murder to a higher penalty including the death penalty.
One assumes that the readers are reasonably knowledgeable of the law in a forum such as this and context makes it clear that the discussion is about "capital murder".
Anyone confused by this probably should probably be reading Highlights For Children instead of The Volokh Conspiracy.
Bob said this: “Plus, death is the only just punishment for those who murder.”
Why would someone assume he only means a specific subset of murders when he’s making a normative categorical statement?
Bob didn't "backtrack," he moonwalked!
Look at the King to which he kneels, careful speech is not a thing for them.
"I did not backtrack"
You might not have noticed since it was so instantaneous.
Minneapolis is shedding police officers and justifiably so. The force had about 900 police officers in early 2020. Since the George Floyd death and the Chauvin conviction, the number of sworn officers keeps dropping. It is now down to about 585.
No doubt, the low number of police is having a bad impact on law enforcement and public safety. Well, the public is getting what it asked for. Make George Floyd a hero and make cops the villains and what do you get? Fewer cops and more law breakers. The city is going to burn….and it deserves to burn. Too bad for the people who disagreed with attacking the police; they made the mistake of being born in or moving to the wrong city.
For more than 50 years I’ve opposed the death penalty in all circumstances. That's based neither on compassion, nor cruelty in implementation, nor a belief in the sanctity of human life. I don’t shed a tear for those executed with provably just cause.
My rationale is that capital punishment as applied in America isn’t about, as you say, a just punishment. It isn’t about Deterrence. In America today, it is overwhelmingly about vengeance, about revenge with no true purpose beyond emotional satisfaction. It is a source of continuing, corrosive, long-term harm to our society, to all of us.
Most agree it may be necessary to ensure that at times, some people live out the rest of their lives segregated from society—as long or short as that may be. Effectively, to make certain some people who are provable threats to society die in prison. (I've debated some who, as you note, disagree. And even they grant it isn't something they have any real hope could happen)
But to do that as a society, we don’t need to purposefully kill already incarcerated people. I am proud that in 2018, my state’s Supreme Court struck down our death penalty statute, writing that as applied, it violates Article I, Section 14 of the Washington constitution, because it is imposed in an arbitrary, capricious, and racially biased manner while failing to serve any legitimate penological goal.
Capital punishment has no societal benefit. Simply, we can’t implement it in a just way, and we don’t have to do it. With each execution, life is cheapened. All of society is coarsened, worsened, with an impact reaching far beyond the legal system.
Over millennia, civilization advances, though only with lots of starts and stops and considerable backsliding. Each state that ends the death penalty—even if only because we don’t have to do this—is a step in the advancement of justice over vengeance, and evidence of a society’s slow but continuing progress.
Agreed.
Does that apply to the thousands of death sentences executed on the Unborn?
"With each execution, life is cheapened. All of society is coarsened, worsened, with an impact reaching far beyond the legal system."
I disagree. You are just valuing the murderer's life higher. The victim gets death and you don't care about their life being snuffed out, usually in a brutal manner.
Its not vengeance, its a reckoning.
“you don't care about their life being snuffed out usually in a brutal manner.”
….you support Pinochet.
Death penaltying someone doesn't bring a murder victim back.
There is no exchange going on here.
Quit with this bullshit 'if you don't like the death penalty you hate murder victims and love murderers' it's unseemly to see such a moral void exposed.
Confining someone to prison doesn't bring a murder victim back either. No punishment then I guess.
"...capital punishment as applied in America isn’t about, as you say, a just punishment...In America today, it is overwhelmingly about vengeance, about revenge with no true purpose beyond emotional satisfaction."
It's about Bob's feelings.
No punishment under your fucked up feelz-based justification, yeah.
Luckily, criminal law has other, more rational justifications.
What "problems" are you talking about? Hoffman got the best of both worlds, a "Life" Sentence (without Parole) and the Death Penalty.
I've heard rumors that the only reason we still have the Death Penalty in certain States (that value life more apparently, if they kill you for taking one illegally) and at the Federal Level is that State Legislatures/Congress/Senate passed Laws making it the punishment for certain crimes, Governors/Presidents signed off on it, as well as the Surpremes.
Frank
RLUIPA only applies to Christian beliefs, according to the conservative justices other than Gorsuch.
Are you aware of Holt v. Hobbs?
Like "Madge" in the old Palmolive Commercials (ask an old person)
"I'll be executed by breathing Nitrogen???"
"You're actually breathing it now, but only 78%, for the Execution it'll be 100%, you'll be Asphyxiated, not Drowned (there's a difference)"
Frank
All executions interfere with breathing. That's the point - to prevent murderers from breathing our air any longer.
Which is why at the later stages the government should win.
In the 40's and 50's Louisiana had a portable Electric Chair ("Gruesome Gertie"), as Executions had to be carried out in the Parrish the crime occurred in, it was transported in a Van that also carried the Generator, they'd set up the chair in the Courthouse or Jail, and "Whammo!!!" (HT B. Cosby) only 1 malfunction, the famous Willie Francis case, where the current didn't kill the poor guy (Willie was only 17 when they tried to execute him the first time, to bad the Surpremes didn't know it was Unconstitutional) Surpremes said it wasn't Double Jeopardy to try a second time, as he hadn't really been Executed the first time.
Second time the chair worked,
Frank "Lighten up Francis"
He supposedly has a religious belief that he likes to breathe. Everyone likes to breathe. The religion is a smokescreen.
People think that about religious people's objections to lots of laws, you down with that generally?
28-year-old advertising executive Mary "Molly" Elliott had just left work and was on her way to retrieve her car at the Sheraton parking garage in downtown New Orleans, where she regularly parked her car for work. Elliott encountered Hoffman in the garage; he was working as a valet at the garage and kidnapped the woman at gunpoint in her own car.
Hoffman forced Elliott to drive to a nearby ATM and withdraw some money. After receiving $200, Hoffman asked Elliott to drive them to a remote area in St. Tammany Parish. After arriving there, Hoffman raped Elliott at gunpoint and made her march to a dirt patch. At the patch itself, Elliott was forced to kneel on a makeshift dock near the Middle Pearl River and Hoffman shot her in the head in an execution-style manner. After killing Elliott, Hoffman left her naked body behind and he disposed of her belongings and the murder weapon.
Very Buddhist of Hoffman.
Yes, he deserved to die. Cue Gandalf's famous line.
Many people who deserve to live, die; many people who deserve to die, walk the earth today. I mourn Molly Elliot and, as I said, I don't shed a tear for Jessie Hoffman. But the fact that we live in an imperfectly just world doesn’t mean we abandon our centuries-long societal journey, striving to form a more perfect union.
As a nation, a society, and a civilization, we understand that as long as the death penalty exists, we kill some innocent people, even as others who are guilty, live. We progress when we structure our strategies and practices toward not causing this personal and societal harm when we don't have to. Because, we are better than that.
If for no reason beyond vengeance, you don't want to be better than that, you care not about a more perfect union, you're irrelevant to the discussion. Because, first we out-reason you. Then—Trump Interregnum notwithstanding—we out-vote you. Then, eventually, your worldview no longer prevails, and society advances.
As a nation, a society, and a civilization, we understand that as long as the death penalty exists, we kill some innocent people, even as others who are guilty, live. We progress when we structure our strategies and practices toward not causing this personal and societal harm when we don't have to. Because, we are better than that.
you are confusing your personal preferences for an objective standard of better.
After receiving $200, Hoffman asked Elliott to drive them to a remote area in St. Tammany Parish.
It seemed she in control of a multi-tion weapon.
Why not just deliberately drive recklessly, hoping to catch the attention of the police?
"This strikes me as indeed unconstitutional"
How so? It reads as if only RLUIPA was at issue.
Potential Murderers might want to steer clear of Ali-Bama(steer clear for the usual reasons)
Governor Kay Bailey just declared an alternative method of Execution,
“Death! by Ungga Bunnga!”
Frank
Perhaps a just resolution of this would be to supply the mask with ordinary air rather than N₂. Just strap down the prisoner, put the mask on, turn on the air, shut and lock the door and return a couple months later to retrieve the body.
(Some soft-hearted souls might favor providing the condemned with a button they could push which would switch to 100% N₂ should the convict have a religious conversion after a day or two to a religion that didn't ban N₂. However providing the N₂ button could be seeing as coercing the convict to convert to a religion they don't favor so I'd suggest it's more just to not provide the button.)
I find this in Wikipedia:
"Jessie Dean Hoffman Jr. (September 1, 1978 – March 18, 2025) was an American convicted murderer who was sentenced to death in Louisiana for the 1996 rape and murder of Molly Elliott. On November 26, 1996, Hoffman, then 18, abducted the 28-year-old advertising executive in downtown New Orleans. After forcing her to withdraw money from an ATM at gunpoint, he made her drive to a remote area in St. Tammany Parish, where he raped and murdered her."
And now, 28 years later, he was allowed to do some Buddhist breathing before being executed.
Gorsuch is of course correct. How well did his victim breathe ?
" the 1996 kidnapping, robbery, rape, and murder of Mary “Molly” Elliott. " IF it were Volokh's daughter Oh what a different tune.
It is NOT ruling on a religious belief , it is saying that such a horrendous crime is not atoned by YOU taking on Buddhist's beliefs rightly or wrongly, sincerely or not. You treated that woman like a squirrel or some dumb beast and it has come home to you.
He died like a Buddhist? Great!
But he did die. Great!