The Volokh Conspiracy
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Remember When The Obama Administration Pressured Baker Hostetler To Drop Its Representation In House of Representatives v. Burwell?
I have a very hard time getting worked up over revoked security clearances.
For the past two decades or so, conservatives have been systematically excluded from big law. Paul Clement was pushed out of two big law firms for his representation of conservative causes. A lawyer at Hogan Lovells was fired after defending Dobbs. Associates are routinely forced to do pro bono work on progressive causes, including abortion. But you will not find AMLAW 100 firms that filed an amicus brief in support of abortion restrictions. With good reason, boutique firms like Consovoy McCarthy and Clement Murphy have flourished. Big law firms have decided they would take a position on ideological issues, conservatives be damned. Maybe that was a good business judgment in the past, though those tides may have turned.
I don't think anyone would quibble with what I wrote above. But they would probably draw a distinction between a law firm making a business decision to favor progressive causes, and the government taking actions against a firm because of their political decisions. The Trump Administration's revocation of security clearances for attorneys at certain firms would be an example of the latter issue.
Is this sort of action unprecedented? Not really. I will repost below I wrote in 2016 about the origin of House of Representatives v. Burwell. This post was based on my 2016 book, Unraveled: Obamacare, Executive Power, and Religious Liberty. The bottom line: the Obama Administration indirectly pressured Baker Hostetler to drop its representation of the House. And that pressure worked. I'll add a coda at the end of the post.
In House of Representatives v. Burwell, the House challenged the legality of subsidies the Obama administration paid to insurers. Judge Rosemary M. Collyer ruled that the House as an institution had standing and that the payments were made without an appropriation. Currently, the case is on appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit. Though the litigation has had unexpected success in the courts, its origin was rocky. As I discuss in Chapter 23 of "Unraveled," one of the most difficult aspects the case was finding an attorney to take it - or, more precisely, an attorney whose law firm would allow him keep the case.
In 2014, David Rivkin of the Baker Hostetler law firm and Florida International University law professor Elizabeth Price Foley wrote a series of articles, sketching a theory of why the House would have standing to challenge the president's implementation of the Affordable Care Act. At the time, their writings focused on the White House's delay of the employer mandate. Behind the scenes, Rivkin, Foley and their colleagues at Baker Hostetler were advising the House on how to take legal action.
With their counsel, on June 25, 2014, then-Speaker John A. Boehner (R) circulated a memorandum to the House GOP caucus. The Ohioan wrote that "for the integrity of our laws and the sake of our country's future, the House must act now" to stop the president's illegal executive actions. In July, Boehner would bring legislation to the floor to authorize the House general counsel "to file suit in the coming weeks in an effort to compel the president to follow his oath of office and faithfully execute the laws of our country." On July 30, the House voted along nearly straight party lines - 225 to 201 - to authorize the litigation. (One Republican voted nay.) House Resolution 676 was framed very broadly: The lawsuit could "seek any appropriate relief regarding the failure" of all executive-branch officials - including the president himself - "to act in a manner consistent with that official's duties under the Constitution and laws of the United States with respect to implementation" of the ACA.
After the House authorized the suit, Rivkin and Baker Hostetler signed a contract to litigate the case, which was capped at $350,000. The reaction from Democrats was swift. The White House called the suit "unfortunate." Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (Cslif.) criticized the case as a waste of "time and taxpayer dollars." Rep. Louise M. Slaughter (D-N.Y.) called the suit a "sorry spectacle of legislative malpractice" and "political theater." Even many conservatives critiqued the decision. Talk radio host Mark Levin, who served in the Reagan administration, called the litigation a "foolish move."
Soon, the law firm was ridiculed on late-night television. Jimmy Fallon aired a fake infomercial for Baker Hostetler on "The Tonight Show." The parody featured an ambulance-chasing lawyer pitching his firm. "At Baker Hostetler, we specialize in one thing," the actor said, "suing the president. For instance, have you ever been forced to pass Obamacare, even though you didn't like it? We can help you waste thousands of dollars in taxpayer money to fight for what you sort of believe in."
The New York Times reported that Rivkin was "under pressure after facing criticism" from his colleagues "that he had taken on an overly partisan lawsuit." Partners at his firm, the Times wrote, "feared the case against Mr. Obama could drive off potential clients and hurt Baker Hostetler's credibility."
I learned from an attorney involved in the matter that when the contract was initially signed, a conflict check was performed, and the firm "backed the case." However, within a week after the contract was announced, partners at the firm started to receive urgent calls from general counsels of clients in the health-care industry. Baker Hostetler represents many hospital management firms and insurance companies, particularly at its office in Columbus, Ohio. All the calls from the general counsels had the "identical" message: They were under pressure and could not continue to associate with Baker Hostetler if it litigated the House's lawsuit.
The attorney I spoke with said it was "suspicious" that they all gave the "same" message very shortly after the contract was announced. There was a concern - confirmed by at least one general counsel - that the Obama administration was quietly pushing health-care companies to drop Baker Hostetler. After these calls came in, Rivkin's colleagues told him, "You can't do this." The contract with the House prohibited partners at Rivkin's firm from any "lobbying or advocacy" concerning the ACA. Many of Rivkin's colleagues lobbied for health-care reform. Although the House was willing to amend the contract to strike this provision, all of the parties agreed that this would be a valid basis to cancel the representation.
This withdrawal was particularly bittersweet for Rivkin. In 2010, he was the first attorney to represent Florida in its constitutional challenge to Obamacare. However, after Pam Bondi was elected as attorney general of Florida, she opted to replace Rivkin with Supreme Court superstar Paul Clement. Bondi wanted to hire someone who would argue at the high court, though she admitted it was an agonizing decision to switch horses in the middle of the race. In 2013, Rivkin told me that he understood the decision and took it graciously. It was a "typical Washington thing," he said. In 2014, after he had to withdraw from the House's case, Rivkin was angry at this political hardball that was completely beyond his control.
This was also not the first time the House Republicans had been in this sort of predicament. In 2011, the Obama administration announced that it would no longer defend the constitutionality of the Defense of Marriage Act. The House hired Clement, then of the King & Spalding law firm, to take the case and litigate it all the way to the Supreme Court. Under pressure, Clement's firm asked him to drop the case. Rather than quitting, Clement announced that he would resign from King & Spalding "out of the firmly held belief that a representation should not be abandoned because the client's legal position is extremely unpopular in certain quarters."
Tony Mauro reported in the National Law Journal that "pressure from within King & Spalding - as well as from some of its clients - were said to be factors in Clement's exit." Dahlia Lithwick wrote in Slate that "Human Rights Campaign, the gay rights advocacy group that had been agitating against Clement's defense of the law, is happy to claim responsibility for pressuring the firm to abandon its representation."
A spokesman for HRC said that the LGBT organization "contact[ed] King & Spalding clients to let them know that the group viewed the firm's defense of DOMA as unacceptable." He added: "We are an advocacy firm that is dedicated to improving the lives of gays and lesbians. It is incumbent on us to launch a full-throated educational campaign so firms know that these kinds of engagements will reflect on the way your clients and law school recruits think of your firm."
In a tradition dating back to John Adams's defense of the Red Coats who opened fire during the Boston Massacre, attorneys are ethically obligated to continue representing a client even if the cause is unpopular, or if they may lose other business. Clement wrote in his resignation letter that "when it comes to lawyers, the surest way to be on the wrong side of history is to abandon a client in the face of hostile criticism." Firms should consider those factors before accepting a client, not after the representation begins.
For example, after he retired as attorney general, Eric Holder joined the firm of Covington and Burling. It was reported in the National Law Journal that the former Obama administration official - no friend of the financial industry - "may have lost a client because the firm hired him back." Holder recalled, "One big bank went to Covington and said, 'If you hire this guy, that is going to put at risk the relationship between this firm and this bank.' " The former attorney general relayed a conversation with the firm's chairman, who said, "I guess we're not going to have a relationship anymore, because he's coming back to Covington." Note that this decision happened even before Holder had joined the firm, whereas Clement was asked to withdraw after the firm accepted the case.
Following his resignation, Clement was able to immediately join the Bancroft law firm and continue his representation of the House. Over the next five years, Clement would establish Bancroft PLLC as a preeminent Supreme Court litigation boutique. Recently, Clement and his colleagues went back to big law by joining Kirkland Ellis.
Rivkin told me that during the summer of 2014, he and his colleagues "spent weeks scrambling to see whether [they] could find a way to continue representing the House." He explained that "this was a very difficult process for all of us as we had to balance our ethical obligations to the House and other Firm clients as well as numerous other considerations," particularly in light of their work over the past year to "develop the legal architecture" of the case. "A number of options were considered," Rivkin said. "Unfortunately, all of them would have required a considerable period of time to implement and the House wanted to file the lawsuit as soon as possible. In the end, withdrawing was the only viable option."
The House, without a lawyer for its case, frantically approached many of the top firms in Washington. They asked veteran litigator Chuck Cooper, who served in the Reagan administration, to take the case. The founding partner of the Cooper and Kirk law firm declined.
The House also asked Michael Carvin and Greg Katsas of Jones Day. Katsas had argued alongside Carvin before the Supreme Court in NFIB v. Sebelius. Jones Day also declined the House's case. An attorney at the firm told me they did not think it was a winning argument to challenge the delay of the employer mandate. Specifically, the employer mandate would go into effect in 2016, thus potentially mooting the case before it worked its way up to the Supreme Court. President Obama made a similar point in ridiculing the suit. In a July speech in Kansas City, Obama said, "It's estimated that by the time the thing was done, I would have already left office. So it's not a productive thing to do."
After a harried search, the House selected D.C. lawyer William Burck of Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP. I learned that Quinn Emanuel was deemed a better option because it was a litigation firm that did not lobby on behalf of the health-care industry. However, three weeks later, without any explanation, Burck withdrew from the case under similar pressure from his firm. An attorney involved in the selection process told me it was "embarrassing." Another attorney said House Republicans were "pissed" and "irritated how everything played out."
After two attorneys dropped out in one month, the House could not afford another miscue. An attorney advised Boehner that they needed an academic to litigate the case who "would not have any conflicts." (Academics can do more than write about the influence of Immanuel Kant on evidentiary approaches in 18th-century Bulgaria).
They soon chose Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University. Turley, though a liberal who supported national health care, had been a staunch critic of President Obama's executive actions. Months earlier, he warned that "what the president is doing is effectively amending or negating the federal law to fit his preferred approach. Democrats will rue the day if they remain silent in the face of this shift of power to the executive branch." On Nov. 18, Turley was officially hired. House Democrats still objected to the case. Rep. Robert Brady (Pa.) carped that Turley should not allow unpaid law students who have "not passed the bar" to be "exploited" by working on this case.
On Nov. 21 - nearly four months after the House authorized the suit - Turley filed House of Representatives v. Burwell. In addition to the employer mandate claim, Turley's complaint also asserted that the Obama administration was paying subsidies to insurances companies that were not appropriate. This additional claim proved decisive, as the court dismissed the mandate-delay claim. In May 2016, Collyer ruled that the payments were illegal. The case is already on appeal to the D.C. Circuit and will probably be argued in early 2017.
Coda
The government routinely applies pressure to private entities to achieve goals they cannot do so directly. Based on my research, I have little doubt that the Obama administration called clients of Baker Hostetler, and told them it would be bad for this lawsuit to proceed. Surprise, surprise, those clients told Baker Hostetler to drop the case. In Murthy v. Missouri, the Court wanted to bury its head in the sand based on standing, but the evidence of "jawboning" was palpable.
It seems there is only outrage when conservatives do these sorts of things. Trump, to his credit, made his actions public and provided reasoning. The public, and the judiciary, can then assess the validity of these actions.
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Boy is this a reach. If POTUS pressures a firms clients that is 100% different than barring the firm from representing clients in dealing with the government or stripping the firm of its security clearance. If what is written in the post is accurate, I think it was wrong, but it is nowhere near as egregious.
I disagree.
Of course you do. Bless your heart.
Here's the actual executive order. The relevant language would appear to be this:
"(b) The heads of all agencies shall review all contracts with Perkins Coie or with entities that disclose doing business with Perkins Coie under subsection (a) of this section. To the extent permitted by law, the heads of agencies shall:
(i) take appropriate steps to terminate any contract, to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, including the Federal Acquisition Regulation, for which Perkins Coie has been hired to perform any service;"
" In addition, the heads of all agencies shall provide guidance limiting Government employees acting in their official capacity from engaging with Perkins Coie employees to ensure consistency with the national security and other interests of the United States.
(b) Agency officials shall, to the extent permitted by law, refrain from hiring employees of Perkins Coie, absent a waiver from the head of the agency, made in consultation with the Director of the Office of Personnel Management, that such hire will not threaten the national security of the United States."
It seems that the firm is NOT barred from representing clients dealing with the government, but is, instead, barred from providing services TO the government, either directly or indirectly. Which is a somewhat different matter: If you're suing the federal government, you're perfectly entitled to hire them. The government just doesn't want them working FOR the government.
limiting Government employees acting in their official capacity from engaging with Perkins Coie employees
That would appear to prevent even talking to Perkins Cole when they're representing clients against the government
So, you think Perkins Coie is objecting to an order that would result in a default judgement in favor of their clients any time they represented somebody against the government? Did you actually think that one through?
No. The clients would be compelled to use other lawyers because they would have to be advised by Perkins Cole that they could not represent them.
This is completely obvious.
BTW when government action has made it difficult to impossible to sue, - e.g., because of national security, do the courts regularly find a default judgment in favour of the plaintiff? You must think the answer is yes.
Far from being completely obvious, it's completely wrong: The EO, if you wrongly interpreted it as saying the government could not talk to PC when they're representing clients, would not mean that PC couldn't represent clients.
It would mean that the government itself would be fatally hobbled in court whenever PC was representing clients. Because it doesn't stop PC from representing anybody except the government.
Now why don't you answer this question: "when government action has made it difficult to impossible to sue, - e.g., because of national security, do the courts regularly find a default judgment in favour of the plaintiff?"
No, unless one is an idiot. The text in context clearly refers to contracts. And even if one adopted the idiotic overly broad meaning you support, the statement only refers to providing guidance. Such guidance would not, since idiots such as yourself are not providing input, prevent appropriate exchanges between opposing counsel.
If ii meant contracts it would have said contracts, you bot-fly.
The relevant langue above in the EO concerns exclusively contracts with the firm or other employment contracts you f’ing moron.
And try to think for yourself if you’re going to make an insult, the idiotic parroting is not a good look.
Not surprisingly, the language that Brett decided was "the relevant language" is not in fact the relevant language (or not all of it). Paragraph (3), which he doesn't bother to quote, attacks government contractors that do business with Perkins Coie. It's not merely telling government agencies not to hire Perkins Coie, it's telling private companies not to hire them, on the pain of losing their government contracts.
"It seems that the firm is NOT barred from representing clients dealing with the government, but is, instead, barred from providing services TO the government, either directly or indirectly. "
Quoting from said section:
"Government contracting agencies shall, to the extent permissible by law, require Government contractors to disclose any business they do with Perkins Coie and whether that business is related to the subject of the Government contract."
"(i) take appropriate steps to terminate any contract, to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, including the Federal Acquisition Regulation, for which Perkins Coie has been hired to perform any service;"
Once again, you still didn't bother to quote the entire section of the order.
Perkins has no constitutional right to a security clearance. President Trump is the Commander in Chief. He has fully, unreviewable discretion to revoke the clearance for these hacks. Any intervention by a federal court is actually unlawful and will not stand. I’ll make a bet with anyone that any judicial intervention will be overruled, either at the appellate level or at the S. Ct. The loser will refrain from making further comments on this site. Any takers?
It. Is. Not. Just. About. Security. Clearances.
Just to be clear, is it your position that if the President decided to only give security clearances to Republicans, or males, or Presbyterians, or people born in Manhattan, or people whose last names start with the letter F, that those decisions would all be unreviewable and he would be within his right? Because if that's your position, it's just wrong.
That's not what is happening. The Constitution gives the president this power. If you don't like it, try to get it amended. And if you disagree with what I wrote, take my bet.
Where does the constitution say anything about security clearances?
Excuse me because I'm not really sure. Are you just being obnoxioulsy sarcastic or are you really this ignorant?
Non-responsive, not surprisingly.
I'll take your bet. It will be refreshing to no longer read your comments on this site.
Ok, we'll see if you keep your word. I don't have high hopes.
How is this responsive to the comment you’re responding to? Katall said it was egregiously wrong, not that a court can overturn it. Just because the president is authorized to do something doesn’t mean that it can’t be criticized. (That’s why, for instance, we can and should criticize Biden’s pardons and commutations.)
point of information! you say:
"Any judicial intervention" is quite broad. Are you claiming that the entire lawsuit by Perkins Coie is without merit, and that they will receive none of the relief they request? Or are you muddying the waters now, while planning to weasel out later by claiming your bet was limited to just the security clearance issue?
Since some commenters here (and Josh B, of course) don't/can't/won't address the broad scope of Perkins Coie's complaint and/or purposefully misrepresent it, let's get you on the record before you try to make excuses.
I think it's a bigger reach because it is entirely made up. We know what Trump has done with respect to Covington and Perkins Coie. Here, all we have is Blackman's lack of doubt.
Take my bet then you POS crazy troll.
Even if I gambled — which I don't — why would I make an utterly unenforceable bet that an anonymous bot will stop posting? You're a thoroughly dishonest lunatic; you'd just come back the next day with a different fake username.
No one remembers because this seems to be personally reported hearsay along with a lot of speculation.
It’s also tu quoque.
I’m also not sure about the partisanization if Big law you describe. Could be true, but would need to hear it from someone serious.
Is a post on the Clinton death list next?
tu quoque
Read in the voice of Rorschach.
Guy puts his dick in a dead body.
Second guy puts his dick in a dead body.
First guy: You really shouldn't be doing that.
Second guy: Well, you are.
First guy: That's no argument.
Wise people grab their chin and nod wisingly.
"But doctor, I am Pagliacci." Big laugh.
"But doctor, I am Pagliacci."
Grimaldi
"...Associates are routinely forced to do pro bono work on progressive causes, including abortion. ..."
From my time in law school, I knew about 100 of my classmates. Some well; some barely. But about 100 I knew well enough to chat, and to keep in touch.
NOT ONE reported that the felt the slightest pressure to work on an abortion case as part of their pro bono work. About 10 of these chaps were anti-choice, so I have no doubt that they would have happily dished tea if they had been forced to do that kind of work.
I, personally, think it's a very good learning experience for beginning lawyers to do work advocating for a side they do not agree with. But in my (and my acquaintances' extremely-limited experience; it just didn't happen...at least not at Big Law and Med-Law firms, where there is always plenty of canon fodder to throw at cases.
Is Josh lying here? Nah; I suspect that his fevered brain actually believes it. More's the pity. (My own times in such a law firm, which was only during the summers before Year Two and Year Three, consisted of me finding creative ways to screw over women who were getting divorces to men who were working in the entertainment field(s). Definitely a valuable experience, as it taught me that I absolutely did not want to work in that aspect of family law, or in Entertainment law.)
'dished tea'
I am not familiar with this idiom.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=spill%20the%20tea
Sounds like a malaphor - you dish the dirt or spill the tea.
Bah. Easy as pie. Piece of cake. Now make like a tree and get outta here.
"...I don't think anyone would quibble with what I wrote above. ..."
I believe sincerely that there is literally, not a single Josh Blackman OP here at the VC where that quote would apply. Is there another VC with less overall credibility.
"...I don't think anyone would quibble with what I wrote above. ..."
You don't doubt he believes that with absolute sincerity, do you?
"Is there another VC with less overall credibility."
Is there another VC who brings more partisan fervor to the table?
An obvious distinction is that President Trump actually did revoke these security clearances, whereas there doesn’t seem to be any concrete evidence that President Obama was involved in orchestrating any of the withdrawals.
Nas...let me ask a philosophical question.
Assume Pres Obama did retaliate and quietly work, unknown to the public, to revoke security clearances and influence law firms. And assume POTUS Trump revokes security clearances by EO, with a doozy of a statement (see section 1), in full view of public.
Would you rather see this retaliation done openly, or clandestinely?
Doing it clandestinely is an admission that it's wrong It's the difference between the adulterous husband clandestinely having an affair versus the husband who goes out of his way to rub his wife's nose in it. Or the difference between the sheriff who quietly shakes down local businesses versus the sheriff who doesn't try to hide it. So, if those really are my only two choices, I'd rather it be done clandestinely.
I don't doubt that some of what this administration is openly doing other administrations have done quietly. I think the blatantness of it makes it worse.
AWNI, I like your analogies. I come out the opposite way, ha. I'd rather the husband cheat openly, and the sheriff shake down businesses in public view. People can decide for themselves how to address that (which can be - do nothing).
Viewed from the opposite direction, maybe you do it clandestinely because you actually think you're doing something wrong, while you do it openly because you genuinely don't think you're doing something wrong.
I don't think the present administration actually thinks there's anything wrong with what they're doing here, they believe the action is perfectly justified, and indeed they DID justify it.
It's just that the administration's political foes don't agree with the justification.
So, you say, "You're openly cheating on your wife!" and the husband replies, "Did you somehow miss that our divorce was finalized back on January 20th?"
Do you think this administration thinks about right or wrong?
All you do nowadays and rationalize and telepathically find good faith for authoritarian abuse after abuse.
Government is not shrinking. You don’t seem to care.
Yes, Sarcastr0, despite your invincible conviction that the administration is run by cartoon villains, they do in fact care about right and wrong, they just disagree with you about what is right and what is wrong.
And half the electorate at least agree with them, so much for the idea that you're obviously right.
Given what's happening with Trump's poll numbers, I would not assume that half the electorate agrees with them.
You know, normally I'd post a link to 538 here, but...
President Trump Job Approval The numbers are basically what 538 was showing before ABC pulled the plug.
From a high of 49.4% to a low of 48.3%. His job approval has absolutely cratered! [/sarc]
Yeah, about half the electorate agrees with him.
Not going to post all the links, but a simple google search of "Trump approval ratings" came up with the following:
"Trump Approval Rating Drops 50 days in, new poll from Emerson College shows"
"New CNN poll: Americans are negative on Trump's handling of economy"
"US News: Many Americans see Trump's actions on economy too erratic"
"Washington Post: New Poll crystallizes Trump's self-inflicted wounds"
"Daily Beast" Trump's Economic Approval Numbers Hit All Time Low"
I see a trend, and not all of those pollsters are liberal. Plus, it's still early. Wait until the real pain sets in.
Yes, it has dropped. But use your numbers: It has dropped by about 1.1%. The "all time low" is 48.3%.
It's a very apocalyptic way of describing what's barely a twitch, well within the margin of error.
Sure, you can find polls where things look ghastly for Trump, if you like cherry pie. You can also find polls where things look really good. But the reality is, things have hardly changed at all on the approval side.
Wait until the real pain sets in.
At least Democrats have the consolation of knowing that the Republicans will be in charge when the economy tanks.
When pain actually sets in, maybe I'll have some reason to agree that there's pain.
I fully expect a recession; You don't end a drinking binge without a hangover, and you don't end a spending binge without a recession. Especially when government spending paid for by borrowing counts as part of the GDP!
But all drinking binges must end one way or another, and the same for spending binges. I'm not confident that the public will stick with Trump through the recession and out the other side, but I can hope.
Nate Silver's numbers show Trump's approval continually dropping from a high of 52.4% on Jan. 23 to today's number of 47.8%. For the same period, Trump's disapproval numbers have gone steadily up, from 43.2% to 48.4%. See https://www.natesilver.net/p/trump-approval-ratings-nate-silver-bulletin?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
How one wishes to characterize this movement is, of course, up to the observer.
Great, somebody else FINALLY brought numbers into the room!
You will note, if you examine the graph, "Do Americans approve or disapprove of Donald Trump?", that the current low point is within the margin of error of his former high point. Which is to say, Trump's approval numbers have not changed by a statistically significant amount. And Silver's numbers are also within the margin of error of RCP's numbers.
And Silver's current approval number, 47.8%, is nearly half of the population.
So, I stand by my position: You may think you are obviously right, but about half the population are on Trump's side of this, and his approval has hardly budged.
So go on assuming he's going to keep dropping and end up in the basement. You're as entitled to make assumptions as anybody. But he's not in that basement yet, by a long ways.
Brett: As I said, folks can interpret the numbers however they like. I myself wouldn't argue that 47.8% approval is "in the basement."
Having said that, are you saying that a drop of 4.6 in approval rating numbers and and an increase of 5.2 in disapproval numbers is all with the margin of error? I didn't check the methodology, but that's a pretty big margin. And in any case, while I wouldn't call the trend for Trump disastrous, I also wouldn't call it good. It's been a short honeymoon at best (this drop took about 11 weeks), and it may get shorter.
Now, reasonable minds can differ on how much difference this will, or should, make in Trump's behavior.
Brett Bellmore : "You don't end a drinking binge without a hangover, and you don't end a spending binge without a recession. Especially when government spending paid for by borrowing counts as part of the GDP!"
Uh huh. The House just passed a 4.5 trillion dollar tax cut. Assuming sanity doesn't prevail in the Senate, that means you, Brett Bellmore, helped vote-in yet another explosion of debt. But you always vote for larger deficits, more sum federal debt, higher debt interest payments, more borrowing, and a greater percentage of debt vs GNP. That's what Brett Bellmore votes for. every. single. damn. time.
I know you can't be shamed into giving-up your gross hypocrisy on this subject, but someone needs to remind you of the unbreachable gulf between your pieties post-election and the vote that preceded it. Because if there's anyone on this forum more reliably pro-federal-deficit than you, I don't know who it is. Trump will explode the national debt this term as he did his last. Do you care?
Also, there's one factor missing in your sunny appraisal of Trump's polling : At this point there's only one president in modern history that's done worse : Trump himself at this stage in his first term.
And I have to agree with A Woman of No Importance : Trump's first weeks have been filled with stunt after stunt after stunt. Gutting USAID worked because the chumps & dupes think foreign aid is 25X greater than it is. Per polling, the average Joe thinks it's 25% of the budget and says it should be 10%. In fact, it's only 1%. Likewise, Musk's theatrics have been about creating noise now, regardless of the breakage that will slowly emerge over time. Everything Trump has done so far was for short-term gain. Real pain is coming, and given DJT starts out worse than any modern president (excepting himself) suggests where the numbers are heading. And that's before this lunatic single-handedly creates a recession.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/what-every-american-should-know-about-u-s-foreign-aid/
Were Brett on the other side, he'd be making much of the fact that ABC shut down fivethirtyeight's posted running average of polls the day it first showed Trump 47's approval rating going underwater (net unfavorable).
(Info on the shutdown leaked just before 538 recorded its last podcast in the early morning after Trump's Mar 4 SOTU speech. ABC seems to have earlier made the decision to fire those 15 people and deactivate the site (hiding all its history). The timing was most likely intended to bury reaction to its action in the chaff of SOTU coverage, and was otherwise a coincidence.)
With 538's untimely demise, I now follow two poll aggregators:
Real Clear Polling (by Real Clear Politics). Weighted average of qualifying polls shows Trump at:
Approve 50.5% / 44.3 Disapprove on Jan 27th,
Approve 48.3% / 48.1 Disapprove today
...net approval steadily declining from +6.2 in January to +0.2 today.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/approval/donald-trump/approval-rating
VoteHub. Unweighted average of qualifying polls shows Trump at:
Approve 56.0% / 39.0 Disapprove Jan 20th
Approve 47.9% / 48.1 Disapprove today
...net approval steadily declining from +8.1 in January to -0.2 today.
https://polls.votehub.com/
Will just note these are the lowest approval/highest disapproval numbers in modern polling history at this point of a president entering a new term.
I never saw the attraction of gambling but, Brett, would you put you money on Trump's number's improving, or continuing to decline?
I wouldn't call it a steady decline.
Virtually all of the decline on the popularity side occurred in the first week to 10 days; He went from 50.5% to 48.3 between February 7th to March 13th. Since then he's just been at 48.9% ± 0.5%, remarkably steady considering the barrage of news.
On the disapproval side, that essentially all happened in the first month, when he went from 44.3% to 47.8%. Since Feb. 20th, he's been at 47.8 ± 0.4%, an even narrower range.
So, based on the RCP numbers, his numbers have been steady for the better part of a month.
OK, I'm fine with swapping out steadily declining (as in a straight, declining trend line) and replacing it with a consistent decline (as in movement in only one direction).
And note that top-line approval polls tend to be lagging indicators (aggregators even more so), following trends first shown by metrics around approval/disapproval of specific positions and actions. Both RCP and Vote Hub link to the polls they use, and many (not all) list their specific questions and let you check their cross-tabs. It's sometimes worth the effort to do so (inserting standard caveat about making conclusions based on only one poll, and even more by one specific cross-tab of one poll).
I've noticed before that when you're having difficultly defending a position, you tend to switch from defending it, to arguing semantics. Others have noted that too. It's one reason people, consistently, steadily, increasingly, call both your credibility and expressed motivations into question.
btw Brett, have you checked RCP again today? Its numbers were from Mar 11 and hadn't changed since then. But RCP just posted an update, from:
Approve 48.3% / 48.1 Disapprove Mar 11
...to
Approve 47.8% / 48.5 Disapprove today
With net approval dropping half a point, declining from +0.2 to -0.7
...the trend continues.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/
I hope there's something better than RCP, because RCP is totally opaque as to how and why it decides which polls to select. 538 always had many many more results in its database than RCP.
hey do in fact care about right and wrong, they just disagree with you about what is right and what is wrong.
Yes. What Krasnov wants: right. What he doesn't want: wrong.
Brett, you sure did switch goalposts from 'Trump means well' fast. I think I know why.
But other than your getting owned with the polls below, popularity doesn't make right.
It is profoundly authoritarian to make the argument that abuse of government authority is fine so long as your approval ratings stay high.
You used to be about rules are rules to a fault. Your trump support has truly drained you of your previous foolish character, replacing it with a passionate but empty tool.
I don't see how I got "owned" with the polls. In fact, I'm the only one who actually linked to the polls, or provided actual numbers. AWoNI just provided some number free headlines.
Again, the actual polls show practically no drop in Trump's approval. There has been an increase in his disapproval rating, but close to half the public still approve of what he's doing.
You of course think it doesn't matter, but your own excuse is getting challenged.
But your excuse is also awful!
Popularity doesn't make right any more than might does. It's full Hobbes.
Again, I'm providing numbers. You're emoting.
I leave the many others who are taking you to task on that to do so.
You still ignore the fundamental amorality of your thesis:
*Popularity doesn't make right any more than might does.*
We do not live in a state of nature. Acting like we are really shows how little principles matter these days.
No, but I can say this much: When half the population disagrees with you, you should maybe be a little bit less adamant that your own position is obviously right.
Brett says:
but I can say this much: When half the population disagrees with you, you should maybe be a little bit less adamant that your own position is obviously right.
Least self-aware person in the world.
Physician, heal thyself.
Brett: "...the actual polls show practically no drop in Trump's approval.
Yes, the Trump Cult pissing Orange Kool-Aid have long demonstrated an unshakable fealty to their liege. No change.
Get into the tabs and you'll note most of of the net approval drop is from Independents. And there's still a sizable pool to keep that trend going.
Bellmore, you need to find better media. No where near half the electorate anymore agrees with Trump. It took only this long to turn them around. You know that second Civil War you keep promoting? You can forget it.
The crap you advocate has never commanded anything like majority support. Trump did, momentarily, but a lot of folks supporting him would not have supported you, and now they discover they were wrong to support Trump.
Lathrop, I'm linking to an actual poll aggregator. You're making an unsupported claim.
Brett, get into individual poll questions about what Lathrop addressed: specific actions-to-date of the Trump/Musk Administration.
In a watch what they do, not what they say lesson, most of what they do rates as quite unpopular
Brett: "Yes, Sarcastr0, despite your invincible conviction that the administration is run by cartoon villains, they do in fact care about right and wrong, they just disagree with you about what is right and what is wrong."
Right and wrong is entirely beside the point. Actions like this are taken out in the open to send the message they want sent clearly.
I agree. They need to care, so that they can consciously choose to do wrong.
No, Brett, this administration does not think there's nothing wrong with what it's doing. This administration does not care about right and wrong. I don't think Trump cares one way or the other whether what he does is right or wrong, legal or illegal. It's just not a question that he finds interesting.
Richard Nixon was immoral. Trump is amoral. There is a difference.
I'll say to you what I'll say to Sarcastr0:
The left has gotten caught up in a sort of moral arms race. The winner is whoever claims to think the worst of your political foes, and you all compete with each other to see who can hold the most extreme views of them, because the loser is viewed as somehow complicit and risks being exiled to the outer darkness.
So you've progressed from claiming that a billionaire twice elected President is an incompetent dolt, to claiming that he's ultra-Hitler who will bring an end to democracy in America.
And how will he do this? By carrying out the campaign promises he openly ran on and got elected on the basis of.
You know where this leads, of course. To assassination attempts, internal subversion, illegal efforts to make sure Democrats get back in control. Because you're describing the present circumstances in terms which, if true, would fully justify revolutionary action against the government. That's what you do if you genuinely believe the government has been taken over by ultra-Hitler!
Now, I think most on the left are not a terrible threat, because on SOME level you still understand that it's all bullshit, and you just can't safely extricate yourselves from that arms race of rhetoric. But most is not all, and this country is in for four years of escalating terrorism, because you're telling people it's justified, and some people ARE going to believe you.
Being an incompetent dolt and a Hitler wannabe are not mutually exclusive; I would argue Hitler himself was an incompetent dolt and with better leadership that war may have turned out differently.
That aside, back to my original point, can you name a single thing Trump has ever said or done to suggest he has a moral compass?
Can you genuinely not distinguish between having a moral compass, and having a moral compass that points in the exact same direction as your own?
Can you answer my question? Can you name a single thing Trump has said or done that indicates he has a moral compass?
I seriously doubt there's anything I can cite that you wouldn't dismiss as a political stunt.
Trump And Farm Widow Burn Mortgage
" NEW YORK (AP) _ A 66-year-old widow and her wealthy benefactors today burned the mortgage on her Georgia farm, less than 11 months after her husband killed himself to prevent it from being sold.
It will be a wonderful Christmas, said Annabel Hill. ″We have a real celebration, not only to celebrate the birth of Jesus but also to celebrate the goodness in men’s hearts,″ which saved the farm, she said.
On hand were real estate developer Donald Trump and Dallas farmer and landowner Tom McKamy, who together provided the last $78,000 that was needed to retire the mortgage on the 705-acre farm in Waynesboro, Ga."
He is the only one trying to end the war in Ukraine.
Turkey tried a couple of years ago, nobody else was making any effort to end the war.
I can add reversing Roe, but you disagree with that, so of course it doesn't count.
Stopping the sexual mutilation of children.
Stopping racial discrimination in employment.
Stopping racial discrimination in college admissions.
No, Zelensky is trying to end the war in Ukraine. Trump's the only one¹ trying to end the war by helping Russia win. That's immoral, not moral.
¹Other than Putin himself, of course.
Compass fungus infects Trump's moral compass?
Brett here is arguing Trump has a moreal compass.
Did you used to say differently? That you don't care for his immorality but prefer him to the alternative?
Oh, how much you've changed.
I'm not sure what a "moreal" compass is. Appears to be a clothing store. Maybe, Trump has one!
[fun with typos]
There's a morel fungus joke there too.
They are cosplaying oppression.
A woman who grew up in Cuba has something to say:
“Imagine telling someone who was born in a dictatorship that Donald Trump is a dictator…If anyone was born in a dictatorship, or gone through a dictatorship, hears what you’re saying or sees what you’re saying, I guarantee they are cracking up right now. …..the privileged Americans have no idea, they’re cosplaying oppression and they don’t even know the first thing about being oppressed.”
https://x.com/TheEXECUTlONER_/status/1899856494432334056?t=l3J5EQZSpJrJZLzk-oklWw&s=19
People who grew up in Cuba and then came here have...different opinions than those still in Cuba.
But the fact that you're setting the bar at Cuba at all says a lot about how little you care about freedom.
How do you know what peoples opinions are in Cuba?
Because they can and are thrown in jail for expressing them.
Human rights watch:
"Arbitrary Detention and Prosecution
The government continued to employ arbitrary detention to harass and intimidate critics, independent activists, political opponents, and others.
Two years after the July 2021 protests, the largest since the Cuban revolution, rights groups counted over 700 people, including over 70 women, still behind bars in connection with them. Many were periodically held incommunicado. Some suffered ill-treatment and in some cases torture."
Cuba was holding over 1,000 people, including 34 adolescents and other children, who met the definition of political prisoners, as of November, according to Prisoners Defenders, a Madrid-based nongovernmental organization (NGO).
That's in a small country with the population of a medium size state like NC.
How do you know what peoples opinions are in Cuba?
I read the papers. The politics of Cuban immigrants is not secret information.
yeah, Cuba sucks. Thus, the fact that you're setting the bar at Cuba at all says a lot about how little you care about freedom.
Sarcastr0 : "yeah, Cuba sucks"
On the other hand, I found Havana and its people interesting when I visited a couple of years ago. The guide for our tiny little group was carefully jaded about the country himself. We were officially there as a "Hemingway Group" because you need an official reason to do the short hop from Key West. And we did visit Papa's house and see his boat, so there's that. But our guide basically turned the daytrip into one long bar crawl thru Havana. Given how much Hemingway loved bars, this kinda worked.
There were a smidge less 50s & 60s cars than I expected, but they were still everywhere - gleaming bright and perfectly maintained.
I'm not setting the bar at Cuba, I've never been there, How would I know?
I'm pointing out that someone who lived there, knows what the bar is, is laughing at people calling Trump a dictator.
And says that people who call him a dictator are cosplaying.
And nothing either one of you have said refutes that in the slightest.
I've traveled in China, and had a pleasant time. And people do have happy fulfilling lives there. But it doesn't change the fact if you criticize the regime there you can end up in jail or a work camp, often even if you are just a minority that isn't fully assimilated. And I'm not going to pretend a week here or there gives me much insight into those realities at all.
Cubans seem cool. Their music, their art, their culture, their history, their cigars etc. etc.
But they are still mighty unfree. Which sucks.
I'm not setting the bar at Cuba, I've never been there, How would I know?
You can know things by reading them even if you haven't personally witnessed them.
I'm pointing out that someone who lived there, knows what the bar is, is laughing at people calling Trump a dictator.
One person, who by their history is most likely quite biased.
You know the folks who are so anti-red they went white?
OTOH, it's like a husband like Lorne Greene who (at age 63) rectified an injustice and took the female star (who hadn't been invited to an awards dinner) there as his guest, and arranged for someone else to take the other female star. This was like 1979 and they'd only invited the male stars, and Greene didn't think that was right.
Somewhat Talmudic question here.
Interesting item in the TRO issued in the Perkins Coie lawsuit:
Ordered that Defendants are enjoined from using the statements laid out in section 1 of Executive Order 14320 in any interaction with plaintiff or plaintiff's clients or employee of plaintiffs or plaintiff's clients.
Here is Section 1:
"The dishonest and dangerous activity of the law firm Perkins Coie LLP (“Perkins Coie”) has affected this country for decades. Notably, in 2016 while representing failed Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, Perkins Coie hired Fusion GPS, which then manufactured a false “dossier” designed to steal an election. This egregious activity is part of a pattern. Perkins Coie has worked with activist donors including George Soros to judicially overturn popular, necessary, and democratically enacted election laws, including those requiring voter identification. In one such case, a court was forced to sanction Perkins Coie attorneys for an unethical lack of candor before the court.
In addition to undermining democratic elections, the integrity of our courts, and honest law enforcement, Perkins Coie racially discriminates against its own attorneys and staff, and against applicants. Perkins Coie publicly announced percentage quotas in 2019 for hiring and promotion on the basis of race and other categories prohibited by civil rights laws. It proudly excluded applicants on the basis of race for its fellowships, and it maintained these discriminatory practices until applicants harmed by them finally sued to enforce change.
My Administration is committed to ending discrimination under “diversity, equity, and inclusion” policies and ensuring that Federal benefits support the laws and policies of the United States, including those laws and policies promoting our national security and respecting the democratic process. Those who engage in blatant race-based and sex-based discrimination, including quotas, but purposefully hide the nature of such discrimination through deceiving language, have engaged in a serious violation of the public trust. Their disrespect for the bedrock principle of equality represents good cause to conclude that they neither have access to our Nation's secrets nor be deemed responsible stewards of any Federal funds."
Is that normal?
Some of this, maybe most of this, seems inarguably true. It does seem a bit off for a court to tell the government that it can't make true statements.
Given what some Dem judges have been doing lately, asking for the Moon has the possibility of working at least temporarily.
Yeah, how dare they defend the constitution and statutes enacted by Congress and signed by previous Presidents. How dare they enforce Congressional appropriations.
They had to burn the Constitution down to save it!
How on earth are they burning down the Constitution? Or is that just meaningless drivel.
For fucks's sake Brett you are out to lunch.
undermining democratic elections, the integrity of our courts, and honest law enforcement
"Some of this, maybe most of this, seems inarguably true."
As for the DEI stuff, "Can you genuinely not distinguish between having a moral compass, and having a moral compass that points in the exact same direction as your own?"
Let's see:
Did Hillary Clinton run for President?
Did she lose?
Did she hire Perkins Coie?
Did she use them as a cut-out to commission the Steele dossier from Fusion GPS?
Has Perkin Coie worked with Democratic activists like Soros?
Have they litigated to overturn laws such as voter ID laws?
Do they have DEI policies which the administration regards as violating civil rights laws?
Don't confuse him with the inconvenient facts.
Your definition of "inarguably true" seems more like 'Brett agrees with it.'
Which of the above listed statements, which the court apparently thinks it's entitled to bar the government from repeating in a legal context, do you think is NOT inarguably true?
The judge overreached by barring the government from stating objective facts in court.
You misunderstand the order Brett, the order doesn't apply to just in court, it applies to ANYWHERE.
"in any interaction".
If Trump posted section 1 of his executive order on Truth Social and prefaced it "To Perkins Coie, their clients, and Employees:"
He would be violating the courts order.
First, the OG thesis is: "undermining democratic elections, the integrity of our courts, and honest law enforcement."
You are not yet providing support for those being "inarguably true."
You just have your own personal nonsense. Which you, as you do, assume everyone agrees with.
In order: Yes. Yes. Close enough. No. I don't know what Democratic activists "like Soros" means, but I assume they have represented some Democratic activists, so I'll give you that one. Yes. No, because the administration doesn't believe in civil rights laws.
"Did she use them as a cut-out to commission the Steele dossier from Fusion GPS?" "NO".
Argue with the FEC about that, they fined her and the DNC over it.
CBS News: FEC fines Hillary Clinton campaign and Democratic Party, clears "Steele dossier" author of wrongdoing
"No, because the administration doesn't believe in civil rights laws."
Sure they do. They just don't agree with Democrats that they permit racially discriminating against whites.
Mislabeled as legal services...how is that a cut-out?
: an intermediary in a clandestine operation
Sounded like a cutout to the FEC:
“By intentionally obscuring their payments through Perkins Coie and failing to publicly disclose the true purpose of those payments,” the campaign and DNC “were able to avoid publicly reporting on their statutorily required FEC disclosure forms the fact that they were paying Fusion GPS to perform opposition research on Trump with the intent of influencing the outcome of the 2016 presidential election,” the initial complaint had read.
And fined the Clinton campaign 113k.
The FEC fined the Clinton campaign¹ for categorizing payments to Fusion GPS as legal services simply because the payments were made through Perkins Coie. (That is, of course, not wrongdoing by Perkins Coie, making it irrelevant to the EO under any circumstances.) Since the campaign did not commission the Steele dossier in the first place, it could not have been fined for using Perkins Coie as a cut out to commission the Steele dossier.
¹Note how I'm not pedantically making a distinction between Hillary and her campaign. I'm letting you treat those as interchangeable.
Everyone has the right to a lawyer, even the most nasty company or corrupt politician. Representing a client does does not make the lawyer complicit in the wrong doing nor should they face political consequences for taking on the client. I don’t care what party pulls this crap, it is wrong.
OTOH, everybody has the right to pick their own lawyer, and this EO has to do with the government deciding that they're not, directly or indirectly, going to be represented by THIS law firm, because they don't trust them.
It does nothing to stop Perkins Coie from representing people who are opposing the government.
They will have a very hard time representing people against the government without security clearances and an inability to enter federal buildings.
"They will have a very hard time representing people against the government without security clearances and an inability to enter federal buildings."
1. Actually, they should be able to represent a wide range of people against the government without security clearances, as most cases don't involve classified information.
2. And for those cases that do? Security clearances are for people with a need to know, and representing somebody in such a case would make for a need to know, at which point they'd actually have an argument for getting that security clearance.
3. The EO, which I linked to above, says,
"The heads of all agencies shall, to the extent permitted by law, provide guidance limiting official access from Federal Government buildings to employees of Perkins Coie when such access would threaten the national security of or otherwise be inconsistent with the interests of the United States. "
So I think they're pretty safe when it comes to entering a post office or federal court, or taking a tour of the Capitol, but they might find it tough to get into places people without security clearances aren't supposed to enter.
"...representing somebody in such a case would make for a need to know, at which point they'd actually have an argument for getting that security clearance."
Most of the effort and money needed for a civilian to get an initial Secret clearance (in the 90's, gov charged contractors about $50k) is in getting that first one. It can be then be deactivated and reactivated each time needed, at no further cost. If entirely rescinded, a reapplication may require repeating the entire process—at the government's discretion.
"...when such access would threaten the national security of or otherwise be inconsistent with the interests of the United States."
Can you say pretext? Let me help you with that:
"...when such access would threaten the national security of or otherwise be inconsistent with the interests of Donald Trump or Elon Musk."
It's amazing how often information classified as at least Secret pops up in routine government business. Part of the reason is, of course, how ridiculously easy it is for a government entity to classify something, and aggravatingly difficult and time-consuming it is to declassify (I could tell you stories).
IBM felt I brought a value-add by bringing a $100k (retail) TS/SCI-SSBI clearance with me, when they hired me into their Information Security consulting practice in 1998 (I went to them to escape the DoD contracting world... "Please release me, let me go...I don't want the need to know").
Still, in the 20-plus years I worked for IBM, they probably listed me more than 100 times as at least an if-needed resource on government contracts. Most of that was DoD and NASA (Boeing and ULA), but also the Education Dept., IRS, HHS, FAA, SEC and others. I spent substantial time (multiple months) on maybe 8-10 of those, with the rest just, as you say, getting into places and accessing information requiring a clearance—a healthy percentage of those working with IBM Legal.
You may or may not already know all that, but since acknowledging that doesn't suit the narrative, you don't.
Another jeremiad, Blackman? You MAGAs have being 'picked on' down to a science.
"John Adams's defense of the Red Coats who opened fire during the Boston Massacre,"
I have to disagree with your interpretation of this incident -- and I can only imagine what John Hancock would have made of the murder of Ashley Babbitt. 250 years later, everyone remembers Hancock's engraving of the incident which is NOT what really happened.
Tensions were running high, soldiers were disliked for the same reason illegal aliens are today -- the soldiers were able to work for less than the longshoremen because the Crown paid for their food and lodging.
It was a dark night with no moon, and there were no streetlights in 1770 -- what light there was candlelight coming out of windows. Snowballs being thrown led to ice being thrown which led to rocks being thrown. Someone pulled the fire alarm (i.e. rang the church bell) which brought out everyone because fire was a big concern back then and bucket brigades was all they had to fight it with.
Two background things to remember, (a) this was then on the waterfront, Boston beyond here is filled-in land, and (b) heat in Boston was provided by cordwood -- 4 foot long logs brought down from the Coast of Maine by sailing vessels that would return with flour and grain which didn't grow on the foggy Maine Coast.
The soldiers were outside with the door locked behind them -- they had no place to retreat to,
Crispus Atticks, an escaped slave "that no one really wanted back" went up and swung at the head of a soldier with "a piece of cordwood." Now what would happen in 2025 if you swung at the head of a police officer with a baseball bat?
Even post George Floyd, what would happen today?
Now this was March of 1770, the Boston Tea Party was December of 1773 (nearly four years later) and Lexington/Concord 16 months after that, i.e. April of 1775. So while things hadn't gotten to where they eventually would in Boston, a British soldier in Boston would get about as fair a trial as MAGA today does in DC for the very same reasons.
The only real question was if the soldiers should be hung before or after the trial -- and this is why you see the Crown subsequently saying that future offenses like this would be tried in England, one of the grievances of the Declaration of Independence, but I digress.
John Adams' principle from the start was that they (Patriots) had no right to complain about being denied the rights of Englishmen if they did not extend the same rights to these soldiers. That is why he defended them, and he knew it would be unpopular from the start.
And the soldiers were in the right -- there were nuances of British law involved, but at its most basic, what would have happened if one of the Jan 6th fratboys had swung a baseball bat at a cop's head? And the situation was very similar.
Now remember that we are talking John Adams and not Sameul here -- the Revolution very much was a civil war and John's wife Abigail (who was a Smith) likely would have been prosecuted as a Loyalist had she been (a) male and (b) not his wife. She wrote to him about the plight of the Loyalists on the Halifax (NS) beach after the Evacuation of Boston and I've always wondered about how she got that information -- in 1776, in the midst of a war, about the enemy...
In fairness one needs to remember that Adams almost didn't join the Patriot side -- he had friends who didn't -- but his principle was what I've seen a lot of people here say about Jan 6th -- it was the Boston thugs attacking the Soldiers and the thugs got what they deserved.
Ah, tiny microscopic Saint Ashtray Babbitt. Had she only been able to beat the cop nearly to death and tried to nullify the votes of seven million people, she'd be alive today...and possibly be president as well
How do riots nullify votes?
Also my point at the time. I'm no fan of Jan. 6, but what did the disasterbaters on the other side think was gonna happen? 350 million people lean back on their sofas and say, oh well, I guess we're a tyranny now, sigh.
Hyperbolating was required to git 'im, done for the same reason they pulled out all the stops the previous 4 years in many government initiatives, because of virulent political opposition, not disinterested concern for rule of law.
"I'm no fan of Jan. 6, but"
I know, right.
... but Gaslight0 is one.
"My Republican Congressmen" voted as such. Don't you remember, Michael?
Two background things to remember, (a) this was then on the waterfront, Boston beyond here is filled-in land
Oh, back before the lawyer industrial complex invented rationalizations for getting in the way of progress for corruption reasons.
Is anyone else surprised that Dr. Ed has adopted a "Blame the black guy" narrative?
Today we remember the Dunblane Massacre and commemorate what a sane country does when confronted with an armed population who happens to also hate almost everyone in it
Disarm law abiding people because one criminal did a bad thing. A Conservative government too!
Now they might take points off kitchen knives, because stabbings went way up.
Oh, and it was official negligence which contributed:
"The released documents revealed that in 1991 complaints against Hamilton were made to the Central Scotland Police and were investigated by the Child Protection Unit. He was reported to the Procurator Fiscal for consideration of ten charges, including assault, obstructing police and contravention of the Children and Young Persons Act 1937. Reports from serving police officers stated that he was unsuitable to own firearms; no action was taken."
If lawyers actually believed that the rule of law requires "everyone have representation," then it shouldn't matter why someone isn't receiving representation, whether it is government pressure, internal pressure within the firm, or client pressure. The Kirkland/Clement episode is on point.
Nonsense.
Government action has always been held to a different standard than private action.
So no first principles?
Are you OK with people not having representation so long as it's private individuals doing the pressuring?
Whether government outright prohibits such representation or only "pressures" a law firm now to provide representation is only a difference in degree, not in kind.
"For the past two decades or so, conservatives have been systematically excluded from big law."
Not shown.
"Associates are routinely forced to do pro bono work on progressive causes, including abortion."
What entails a "progressive" cause? For instance, conservatives regularly work pro bono in criminal cases. Christians believe in supporting a range of "progressive" causes.
I don't know what the bolded text is supposed to tell us.
Finally, there's this amusing bit, especially from people who know all about the guy and what he stands for:
They soon chose Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University. Turley, though a liberal
This latest game of "whataboutism" will convince only those willing to be convinced & even some of them are tired of JB's schtick.
"Not shown."
The case of Paul Clement being driven out of biglaw for the sin of repeatedly WINNING at the Supreme court sure looked like it was relevant.
You know what a progressive cause is. Doing pro bono work for abortionists, pro bono work to help illegal aliens stay, pro bono work on behalf of death penalty cases where there isn't a question of innocence, and so on.
There was a concern - confirmed by at least one general counsel - that the Obama administration was quietly pushing health-care companies to drop Baker Hostetler.
So rumor
And it coudl very well be that if your law firm was actively working against your interests as a health care company, that you would take exception, that you may consult your peers, and try to get them to agree
Yawn. $2,000 an hour lawyers for their little feelings hurt.
It's Trump's hurt feelings that seem pertinent here.
The Obama administration did it so it's okay to do. Actions by the Obama administration are the gold standard for all future administrations. When necessary.
Everytime I see the name of Barack Obama, I recall Geraldine Ferraro's wise observation:
If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position.
Geraldine Ferraro
Obama was, is, will always be a fraud. Raised by a white woman, with white grandparents to assist, in a non-black American environment, the guy was a grifter's grifter. Al Sharpton looks legit compared to Barack. Nothing he did for Americans was in their best interest. True to Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, Obama was a divisive man.
Matt Taibbi said it best about him:
Trump’s point was that he, Trump, was already swinishly rich, while politicians have only one thing to sell to get the upper class status they crave: us.
Obama did that. He sold us out, and it’s time to start talking about the role he played in bringing about the hopeless cynical mess that is modern America.
https://www.racket.news/p/the-vanishing-legacy-of-barack-obama
Images of Obama's plush mansions in pricey real estate regions of the world are sickening, all that for a adjunct law instructor
The white grandparents raising the mulatto child after the black man ran out on his family is as American as apple pie.
I have Rep. Dixietune (R-JimCrow) blocked, but before I clicked on Showusername, I had guessed it was him, enthusiastically proclaiming his support. Am I right on that part too?
Obama got me health care. It had been talked about for decades, during every variation of political power in the Presidency and both houses of Congress. Obama and the Dems got it done. Saved my life, perhaps. Saved my financial life, for 100% sure. Got meaningful health care to MILLIONS OF PEOPLE who had no real access.
If that ends up being Obama's only positive legacy, then he'll still be (IMO) in the Top Five of all US Presidents.
I leave it up to Trump and my Republican party to fuck it up, and to take my good health care away from me. (I had Blue Cross PPO--which I *loved* till last year. I now have Kaiser HMO--which is decent, but not fantastic, going forward.) At least for 5+ years, till I am eligible for MediCare. Unless Republicans manage to fuck that up too.)
Obama doubled the cost of my health insurance, and it's much worse insurance. And that experience is more common than yours.
Your insurance wasn't free, it was subsidized by making a lot of people much worse off.
Do Traythug supporters understand the facts of the case? I don't think they do. What it all comes down to is that Traythug felt "dissed" by some "creepy ass crackuh" following him at night, and he wanted to show his "girlfriend," or more accurately, his baby momma-to-be, that he wouldn't let said diss go unpunished! He violently chimped out, category 5 fashion, and George Zimmerman shot the piece of crap through the heart. End of story.
Instamute.
Hmmm...
I look and looked, and am unable to locate exactly where Professor Blackman noted President Obama personally ordered any U.S. Government contract with Baker Hostetler and firms doing business with it, be rescinded, and any security clearances of any of their employees, revoked.
Interesting illustration of part of the problem, which is a mindset that seems inherently unable to consistently differentiate between different things that have at least some surface relationship.
As many learned from Sesame Street at an early age: One of these things is not like the others…all of these things are not the same. For some people that takes longer. But come on, Josh, you can do it!
Purple,
CAN Josh do it, though? Are you sure he has the candlepower? I remain unconvinced that he has the mental fortitude to move past his partisan blinders to look at actual facts. (I have to admit a perverse interest in wanting to sit in on one or two of Josh's law school classes. Does he teach his students to be as intellectually inflexible as he is? Or is he a better teacher than he is a lawyer/blogger? I have no idea.)
I don't know if folks noticed, but Brett posted this:
"When half the population disagrees with you, you should maybe be a little bit less adamant that your own position is obviously right."
Impressive irony.
Wow, this is pitiful even by the standard of Blackman.
Also, I’m so glad that ogre Rivkin is D-E-A-D.
Oh yeah, before anyone goes moaning about antisemitism, I’m Jewish motherfuckers.
"Josh Blackman is a constitutional law professor ..."
Like, the U.S. Constitution? Seriously? GTFO.
Professor Blackman, I see no legitimate principle behind your purported reasoning. If I understand you correctly, you're arguing or implying that past conduct that violated our Constitution somehow excuses current conduct that violates our Constitution. I don't see where you find anything like that in our Constitution. Our Constitution expressly emphasizes that it is the supreme law of the land and all public servants are bound to support our Constitution every day in all official conduct. Nothing in Article II even hints at the pretense that any executive branch official was delegated any power to violate our Constitution.