The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Case Against Taxing University Endowments
Tax professor Erik Jensen suggests taxes on large university endowments are not as good idea as some people think.
Some universities have multi-billion-dollar endowments. Should they be taxed? I am no tax expert, but I have long been concerned that the case for taxing endowments looks a bit like the case for taxing wealth generally. Yet some conservatives support the former while opposing the latter.
In 2017, as part of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, Congress imposed a 1.4 percent tax on the net investment income of large, well-endowed universities. The question now is whether it should be expanded.
My colleague Erik Jensen knows far more about tax law than I do, and he had a piece this week in Civitas Outlook suggesting why taxes on university endowments is not such a great idea. Not only does the tax raise minimal revenue, it induces universities to waste more money on accountants and administrators to account for and avoid the tax (and its "cliff effect"), and its costs are not ultimately borne by universities as institutions.
In form, colleges pay the tax, just as corporations pay the corporate income tax. But everyone except Bernie Sanders knows that the economic burden of corporate tax is borne by some combination of investors, employees, and customers—not the targeted corporations, which are legal fictions. Economist Douglas Holtz-Eakin has similarly argued that "in the near-term, the students and university employees will bear the brunt of the [endowment] tax." Is that desirable?
Jensen also suggests that if the purpose of the tax is to penalize universities for being too progressive or "woke," that is a misguided justification for the policy.
I defer to no one in my dislike of wokeness, but it's a bad idea to have the federal government attacking educational institutions for permitting disfavored views. If a college is nothing but a platform for political indoctrination, challenge its tax-exempt status. But despite what you may have read, no elite university is tainted with wokeness from top to bottom. Yes, even departments in the hard sciences and engineering have overdone wokeness in hiring and promotions, but it's hard to see how a course in physics or a research lab is going to be excessively woke.
In any event, the idea that an institution should be taxed because politicians think it's too woke should make all who care about academic freedom nervous. (We should be similarly nervous about any proposed federal mandates requiring wokeness.) I'll leave to First Amendment scholars the question of whether an anti-wokeness motivation for a tax violates the Constitution. But, even if constitutional, it's not something Congress should do.
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Jensen also suggests that if the purpose of the tax is to penalize universities for being too progressive or "woke," that is a misguided justification for the policy.
It's correct, this is a lousy reason to tax something. But those same folk, and their compatriots on the other side, are lousy with statements like, "The power to tax is the power to destroy, and that's ok!" and "Taxation is a perfectly fine way to reduce behavior in the population", and "Tax them to coerce them to buy health insurance", and many other rationalizations of taxes-as-manipulation, in as many contexts as a ways a politician's hair is randomly mussed rolling out of bed this Saturday morn.
So we pick our position, then backfill with rationalizations supporting manipulation, or freedom from same, as a grand eternal guidepost.
Every dollar that Harvard doesn't pay is a dollar that someone else has to pay and thus someone else is subsidizing Harvard.
So what's the difference between using tax policy to influence Harvard and using tax policy to influence me?
By that logic we should tax Dr. Ed 100%, because every dollar he "doesn't pay is a dollar that someone else has to pay and thus someone else is subsidizing" Dr. Ed.
"Don't tax me because I will waste my money finding loopholes"?
The solution to that is to eliminate the loopholes....
And the equitable solution is to stop giving rich universities Federal money, to say "we won't tax you, nor subsidize you."
Perhaps make private colleges apply for ability to accept financial aid, prove that you don't have endowments beyond a certain minimum level. Better, have a decreasing percentage of FinAid paid -- take a certain percentage off the top for being a wealthy college.
And then take a certain percentage off for graduation rate and gainful employment.
Hence where a student could get $10,000 to attend State U, the same student will only get, say, $5,000 to attend Never-Graduate U, and only $5 to attend Harvard.
No real need to tax the endowments, just stop any and all payments of tax money, direct or indirect, to the universities, and tax them like any other corporation.
No research grants, no loans to their students, no payments from groups that receive tax money, corporate tax on sports revenue as well as tuition and all other income.
(of course, if we are lucky enough, a lot of the 'free money' give away will be DOGEd for everyone)
Are you familiar with the concept of a not-for-profit organization?
Yes. I am one such. I am required to pay tax on my income and don’t get to deduct my expenditure in the calculation. Most unfair.
Universities should be taxed like I am. Or if they don’t like that they could convert into for profit corporations and pay tax like regular businesses.
Yes. I am one such. I am required to pay tax on my income and don’t get to deduct my expenditure in the calculation. Most unfair.
Uh, how are you a not-for-profit organization? Are you playing some kind of game with what "not-for-profit" means?
My, layperson's understanding of a non-profit organization is that it never distributes any excess revenue to owners or members of the organization. Rather, any excess revenue would be held in reserve until the organization finds something else to spend it on that is consistent with its purpose as defined when it was created as a 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(4) entity. A for profit business or an individual person, takes any excess income that they don't spend right away and they can save it for contingencies or to buy something for themselves later, invest it to increase their future, or whatever else they feel like doing with it.
A non-profit in the tax code has to declare a purpose for their existence other than to generate wealth for its owners or members that will satisfy their own desires and needs. Maybe you can be a non-profit if you make a declaration that and follow the tax code so that you won't use your income for anything you want or need for yourself. And, then, you keep records of all of your income and spending so that you can prove that you didn't break those rules if anyone questions your honesty about that.
Somewhat obtuse.
I am a non profit organization in that I do not operate to make a profit. That is the concept of a non profit organization. The particular hoops that you have to leap through to get favored tax treatment as an officially approved non profit organization have zip to do with the concept. They are about which non profit organizations the government wishes to tax indulgences to.
My opinion is that the government should not be favoring anybody or any cause. It should tax everybody in the same way.
The concept of a not-for-profit organization is not that the entity doesn't make a profit — if it didn't, it would not be an ongoing concern for long — but that the purpose of the entity is something beyond profit, and that the benefits of profits do not accrue to any individuals. Neither of those things in fact describes you, unless I suppose you're a nun who has taken a vow of poverty.
No, the concept of a not-for-profit is that it does not seek to make a profit. But it doesn't seek to make a loss either. It aims to keep its head just far enough above the water as to keep breathing - and thus to carry on doing whatever not-for-profit thing that it wants to do.
This is precisely what I am. I do not seek to make a profit, nor do I seek to make a loss. I seek, over the long term, to match my income to my expenditure. My lifestyle (and that of the Moore family) is the not-for-profit thing that I want to support.
The point, obviously, is that nothing distinguishes the Lee Moore not-for-profit from the Harvard not-for-profit except the particular unprofitable thing that is supported by each. The government chooses to tax one like its going out of fashion, and the other, more or less, not at all.
The tone of your comments indictates that you approve of this giant government enforced cross subsidy from the Lee Moore not-for-profit to the Harvard not-for-profit. "Libertarian" Dave, eh ?
Lee,
Respectfully, it seems to the average reader that you're playing word games . . . I guess in order to make some point that is flying over my head. You are not a non-profit. This entire thread is telling us gentle readers that literally the only person who think he/she is running a non-profit is you.
I guess my law practice is a non-profit. I'm not a lawyer to earn money (my real estate income dwarfs what I've made in 30 years as a lawyer) by this point. I'm a lawyer to protect children who have been abused, and to defend clients who have been falsely (okay, often truthfully, as well) of child abuse. But yet, each year, I pay 3 craploads of money to the federal and California governments, since, well, I'm NOT a non-profit.
Can you see why people might have a problem with the argument of "Yes, I make a profit at my work. But since money isn't my goal, I should be treated as a non-profit, for tax purposes."?
(I wonder how someone--under your system--would prove that money/profit was 0% a motivating factor in operating a particular business. Take a lie detector test? Swear on a Bible? Pinky swear? Something else??? Seems pretty unmanageable.)
If your law practice is not for profit I could understand that in some years it might make a profit by mistake. You set your rates and work comes in and hey I’m ahead.
But if it happens every year and to an extent that you’re paying three craploads of tax, then some would doubt that you’re not intending to make a profit. Why wouldn’t you cut your rates or adjust the fee paying v pro bono ratio ? btw how DO you manage to make a profit from that clientele ?
Anyway, enough of you. Let’s focus on the point which is the difficulty Dave has in seeing that I’m a non profit. And that’s just a failure of imagination, which is ok - he’s a lawyer.
Harvard has a large investment business which supports its loss making teaching hobby. I’m in the same position except my hobby is different - supporting the Moore family. Harvard and Moore are distinguished only by their choice of hobby, and the governments preference for Harvard’s hobby over mine.
I do not intend to make a profit over the long term. Thus if my investment business does well, my spending on the Moore family will increase accordingly.
PS Mrs Moore has done very well on California real estate, but she’s mostly gotten out now. Since she’s never wrong about anything (excepting the choice of spouse) you can take that as a friendly tip.
Well, I hope for your sake that Elon doesn't eliminate social security, then, because I don't intend to let you live in my spare bedroom rent free in your old age.
Your entire discussion in this regard, perfectly evinced by this quoted sentence, involves confusion about the difference between the concepts of motive and intent.
santamonica's motive is his/her/its desire to help the unfortunate victims of child abuse and related folk
santamonica's stated intention is to provide legal services to such folk, and, so he/she/it says - overall and over time - not to make a profit while so doing.
If he/she/it continually makes a profit it is reasonable to doubt the intention not to make a profit.
What was your point ?
Well, I hope for your sake that Elon doesn't eliminate social security, then, because I don't intend to let you live in my spare bedroom rent free in your old age.
You will be relieved to hear that "supporting the Moore family" does not exclude supporting me in my old age. Why would it ?
Because you’re obviously finding this very difficult. Let me give you an even simpler illustration.
I set up a family trust, giving it a hefty chunk of capital. The objects of the trust are to provide for my descendants. In the event that the trust still has some money when the last of my descendants dies, then that money is to be distributed to the descendants of my parents, and then grandparents, and so on*.
The trust can spend its endowment and the income therefrom as quickly or slowly as it pleases.
This is a not-for-profit. Every last penny is spoken for.
It is not like Harvard. But it is not like Harvard only to the extent that the government does not favor the way my family trust is to spend its money, whereas it does favor the way that Harvard is to spend its money.
That you don't understand the difference between motive and intent, which you just proved again.
His (stated) motive indeed is to provide legal services to certain victims. That in no way suggests that he doesn't intend to make money when so doing.
Because if you don't make a profit, that would be impossible to do. You must take in more than you spend, or you will not have anything to support you in your old age.
That you don't understand the difference between motive and intent, which you just proved again.
Oh dear. I hope you don't practice criminal law. Mo intends to slash me to death with a carving knife. Mo's motive is revenge for me swiping his girlfriend in college. Intent is what you plan to do. Motive is why.
His (stated) motive indeed is to provide legal services to certain victims.
No, that's his intention. His motive is his compassion for the unfortunate.
That in no way suggests that he doesn't intend to make money when so doing.
Wrong again. Read The Question:
santamonica : "I'm not a lawyer to earn money"
Because if you don't make a profit, that would be impossible to do. You must take in more than you spend, or you will not have anything to support you in your old age.
Doh ! Here's some guy called Nieporent making the exact same point about not-for-profit organizations a few inches up the thread :
The concept of a not-for-profit organization is not that the entity doesn't make a profit — if it didn't, it would not be an ongoing concern for long
Just a reminder of your brief. You are supposed to be arguing against my proposition that I am a not-for-profit like Harvard. You are not supposed to be highlighting the points that are in common.
I am just like Harvard. Like Harvard, my planning horizon stretches more than a year ahead.
If, over time, Harvard spends more on its tuition hobby that it can raise from its income, its capital and any grants that might be available, it will have to fold up its tent. Just like me.
Or if they don’t like that they could convert into for profit corporations and pay tax like regular businesses.
This might make some sense, if you think that non-profits shouldn't get special treatment in the tax code, then what would be different? First, businesses pay taxes on profit, not revenue, so a non-profit that spent all of its revenue would still pay zero income tax. Excess revenue held in reserve could be a different story, of course. I don't know enough about business taxes to know if they have to pay tax on the portion of their net profits that they keep as cash reserves or put into some asset that is easy to liquidate.
More importantly, the discussion really needs to center on the goals of taxation: to raise revenue for government spending in the manner that least distorts economic activity that society wants to incentivize. The argument for the tax laws around non-profits is that we want there to be an incentive for private organizations to do the things that non-profits do, and taxing revenue in excess of expenditures over the short term is contrary to that goal. Since the fiscal stability of the organization is harmed if it can't keep funds in reserve or accumulate enough to fund larger projects without it being taxed.
That's what I'd suggest we do in regards to endowments. Alter the rules on what it. 1) More scrutiny and limitations on self-dealing, and high fees and payments to people that manage the investments of the endowments. (That seems to be one of the criticisms I see. That the top level administrators and university trustees are making sure that some of the money is going to their friends and comes back to them in the form of paid board seats when they leave the university, gifts and perks, and so on.) 2) Maybe caps on how large the endowments can get compared to annual operating expenses to discourage any kind of hoarding and abuse. Most private colleges don't have such large endowments, but the ones with the largest endowments could stop charging tuition entirely for several decades and not spend it all. I can't see any justification for hoarding that much money.
For profit businesses don't get to deduct expenditure on things that are not part of the profit seeking business. Thus if the business earns $1 billion in revenues, and spends $500 million on rent, wages, raw materials, power, insurance etc; and $300 million on building roads in Nepal (which contribute zip to the business) then it doesn't get to deduct the $300 million. The $300 million is not a business expense, it's a hobby expense.
If universities are seeking to make profits from their business of teaching and researching, then any losses they make during start up or in bad years can be offset against investment income on their surplus funds. But if they're not trying to make a profit on their teaching and research, that's a hobby not a business. And they should get taxed like me. I get taxed on my pay and my dividends, but I don't get to deduct my restaurant and theatre expenses. Nor even my ammo costs. Those are hobbies.
More importantly, the discussion really needs to center on the goals of taxation: to raise revenue for government spending in the manner that least distorts economic activity that society wants to incentivize.
I was with you until the last 5 words. None of the government's business to incentivize some forms of economic activity. Who can possibly say whether $50m filched from Elon in taxes, and given to an "approved" non profit in tax breaks, is going to work better "for society" than leaving it with Elon ?
Your theory is "let's minimize tax distortion of economic activity....except the distortion that the government likes."
Doesn't seem a very principled principle to me.
Lee,
But most politically feasible taxes distort economic activity one way or another. It's not a question of whether to distort, but how to.
Income taxes affect work and investment incentives.
Transaction taxes reduce the number of transactions affected, and also affect their prices.
Property taxes affect the value of property.
etc.
Sure. But some distortions are intentional. Tariffs being an obvious example. The thumb is on the scale against those wicked foreigners. Giving institutions of education a tax break on their investment income, but not giving the same tax break to insurance companies is putting a thumb on the scale for those clean and pure purveyors of "The Science" against those wicked commercial folk.
You can certainly attempt to minimize distortion of economic decisions by imposing taxes on a wide base and not granting special exemptions to favored folk; by considering the relevant elasticities and frictional and admin costs; and by trying to avoid double taxation (eg as in the regime for taxing corporations.)
But the easiest way to minimize distortion is obvious. Keep the overall tax burden at 10% of GDP max.
Are you saying that sales taxes should apply to fresh produce the same as a box of cereal? And I assume that you would tax capital gains no differently than any other form of income.
and by trying to avoid double taxation (eg as in the regime for taxing corporations.)
The fixation on this is weird to me. The idea of double taxation = bad would apply if the same income was taxed once, and then taxed again before you did anything with it. But a corporation is a separate entity from its owners for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is to insulate them from any liabilities that the corporation would incur. A shareholder can't lose any more than they put in when they bought the shares, right? That's a privilege that the government sets up to encourage risk-taking. So, part of the cost of getting that privilege is that the corporation can get taxed on profits separately from the tax on individual shareholders when that profit is distributed as dividends. There are other things that the corporation can do with its profits besides distribute it to shareholders, after all.
Are you saying that sales taxes should apply to fresh produce the same as a box of cereal?
To do otherwise would deliberately distort economic activity, which was what I was discussing with bernard.
And I assume that you would tax capital gains no differently than any other form of income.
Yes, but here we have to dive into the weeds. Capital gains on the purchase and sale of Old Masters does not involve double taxation. But capital gains on the sale of stock in a corporation that is already paying tax on its income and gains, is double taxation, and hence a distortion of economic activity (Though by adjusting the rates of tax on corporate income and gains, and on capital gains on stock, you could wriggle your way to parity with the taxing of directly owned businesses.) Not taxing capital gains on university endowments is obviously a distortion of economic activity.
Another capital gain twiddle relates to inflation. In principle both income and capital gains should be indexed for inflation so that only the real, inflation adjusted, income or gain is taxed. (See bernard’s learned comments on inflation lower down.) But indexing is hard work and doing it for income is not really worth the bother until you get inflation up past 20% or so. This is because the cost and revenues giving rise to income profits are usually pretty close in time. But that is not so for capital gains, where the cost might be incurred 20 years before the receipt on sale.
The idea of double taxation = bad would apply if the same income was taxed once, and then taxed again before you did anything with it. But a corporation is a separate entity from its owners…
Yes but this is a legal fiction. It has nothing to do with the economics.
for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is to insulate them from any liabilities that the corporation would incur. A shareholder can't lose any more than they put in when they bought the shares, right?
It’s fishy…. and it’s red ! Yup a great fat red herring. This may seem to you to be a good reason for having a deliberate distortion of economic activity generated by the tax system, but it doesn’t prevent it being a deliberate distortion of economic activity.
(Moreover it’s a very blunderbussy deliberate distortion. The benefit of limited liability to stockholders is wildly different across different types of business and across different legal jurisdictions.)
Yes, the income earned on University endowments should be taxed. Universities benefit from society like everyone else.
Harvard has a $50 Billion endowment. If it's earning a 5% rate of return (yes, that may be low), that's $2.5 Billion a year in income. Put that at a modest 15% rate, and it's $375 million a year in tax revenue. Yale sits at $40 Billion. Stanford at just under $40 Billion.
The endowments are not being used to further education. They just keep going up and are being used to concentrate wealth. Harvard's endowment is up 44% in the last 10 years. Yale's is 73% up in the last 10 years. Stanford is up 75% in that time frame.
If the endowments were being used to further education (rather than concentrate wealth)...you might have a point. But they are not.
Did you read the OP?
I did. I simply don't agree with it.
"in the near-term, the students and university employees will bear the brunt of the [endowment] tax." Is that desirable?"
This is a odd statement. In the past 10 years, Yale (as noted above) has increased its endowment by over 70%. The argument is going to go that because "some" of that is taxed, and it only goes up by 60% instead, Yale is going to take the rest out of its employees and students? So, that can't be allowed?
No. I simply don't agree.
This might have a point in a steady-state equilibrium where Yale was operating with a bare minimum endowment, and "needed" that money to stay out of bankruptcy. But it doesn't. Not even close.
Armchair 9 minutes ago
"I did. I simply don't agree with it."
Armchair - your assessment of the OP is spot on. In furtherance of your comment, in many endowment funds, a very limited amount of the endowment is actually being used for education and/or research. Why should that income escape taxation?
You didn't engage with it.
You just wrote your own take as though you'd not read anything it said about who pays the tax.
I see that when I called you on it, you suddenly seem to know what the OP says and are posting relevant, if kinda thickheaded, material.
Well, better late than never.
Why should the students and faculty not pay the tax? They get the benefit, after all.
Increase the tax rate and apply it good and hard. Make the rich pay "their fair share", right?
I am not shocked to see law professors opposing this.
You're into wealth taxes, then?
Hey, I'm willing to engage in progressive arguments. The Left wants to increase taxes on the "wealthy", so let's do so.
...on their sacred cows first, though.
Sounds reasonable. An exploratory wealth tax on university endowments. How leftist! I feel my hair turning purple already.
Logical fallacy alert: Wealth taxes are not the same as taxes on the wealthy. Wealth taxes are taxes on the balance of an asset. Taxes on the wealthy could be (but in this case are not) taxes on the asset balance but "make the rich pay their fair share" is usually an argument for a steeper tax rate on their income.
No one here is talking about taxes on the wealthy as a wealth tax.
You did right above when you said "You're into wealth taxes, then?" in reply to damikesc's comment "Make the rich pay 'their fair share', right?"
And I was not talking about just a tax in the rich.
Hope this helps.
Why do you think it’s a wealth tax ? It’s a tax on income.
I pay tax on my income. So do you on yours. And so does Microsoft on its. The exact same “incidence” questions apply to all these taxpayers.
Can’t see what the fuss is about I’m afraid. I’m sure Elon would happily volunteer to be taxed on 1.4% of his net investment income as opposed to the ordinary income tax.
I'm responding to damikesc.
Are you against the existence of nonprofits generally, or just schools?
1. I can't see how your reply relates to what daikesc said. He/she/it didn't mention wealth taxes.
2. I'm against tax breaks for "approved" non profits generally. Not against non profits per se. As I keep mentioning, I'm a non profit myself.
The OP is about wealth taxes.
daikesc wants to shut the schools down entirely.
You're being dense.
The OP is about wealth taxes.
No it's not. Heeere's Johnny !
"I am no tax expert, but I have long been concerned that the case for taxing endowments looks a bit like the case for taxing wealth generally."
He's confused, as he admits. But he's talking about justifications. What is actually discussed in the OP is not a wealth tax but a tax on the income from endowments. Which no more a "wealth tax" than the a plain ol' income tax just like you and me pay.
You're either being dim, or jus' pretending to be dim.
Lee Moore 20 hours ago
"You're either being dim, or jus' pretending to be dim."
Both!
Actually Joe I think he simply made a mistake and jumped in with "wealth tax !" without thinking about it for more than 5 microseconds. An understandable thing to do - "Aha ! I get to make a point."
When it's pointed out that the point is galactic level crap, you can retreat gracefully with "oops, my bad" - as, say, bernard would do. Or you can deflect and dodge to avoid admitting you effed up, a la Sarcastro.
In this, if nothing else, Sarcastro is a true disciple of The Donald.
I am opposed to non-profits in general. Most are grifts.
The biggest private R1's are realizing well over 5% on the income from their invested endowments. For Harvard historically that has been in the form of capital gains on extensive real estate holdings. When those gains are realized, what is the rational for not taxing that realized gain at say 15% or even 10%?
When the income is returned income from massive holdings of equities, why should that be tax free?
To be sure, the giant endowments have made it possible for many if not most student to pay less than full freight to Old Ivy. But what is the rationale when endowments of Old Ivy and siblings are increasing their holding much faster than the rise of expenses?
So rather than a snark, how about a reason?
Armchair quotes the Prof : "in the near-term, the students and university employees will bear the brunt of the [endowment] tax."
I agree that this is a most unlikely analysis. These incidence questions - which apply to all taxes on everyone btw - turn on things like the various elasticities which attach to the different players. ie if the tax cost can largely be passed on to students and employees (and grant givers) because students' demand for tuition is very inelastic, employees demand for a job at the institution is very inelastic etc, then the tax will largely not be borne by the institution itself.
But how likely is that in this case ? Well one way to think about it is to see what happens at these well endowed colleges when there's a bad year in the stock market. Do they make swingeing cuts to staffing and pay ? Do they hike student tuition ? I don't think they do.
The times and places when we do see such things are when we find a college which is actually running out of money.
I tend to agree that the policy is misguided. Instead of meeting the evil of university wokism with the evil of taxation, perhaps meet the evil with good ? There are three solidly good things we could do that would push things in the right direction while avoiding the evil of simply taxing those we don't like.
1. Reduce the amount of tax burden on the individual American and simply give the institutions less money.
2. Remove the ridiculous exception that student loans cannot be wiped out with bankruptcy and let the chips fall where they may.
3. Fix the intellectual property system. Implement the rule that if you take a dime of government funding all patents are automatically licensed to US citizens for nothing. No more government funding that results in private patents causing the public to have to bear that cost.
I’ve got a really crazy proposal.
People should pay their student loans back.
2. The chips will fall on people declaring bankruptcy to get rid of hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical school and law school loans, then turn around and take jobs as high paying doctors and lawyers, never needing to repay those loans.
3. Sounds like a good way to get rid of patents.
Oh, we should put the universities in as co-signers on the loans. They should be forced to pay for half of all discharged loans.
They do a massive disservice to students when discussing the loans and repayments. They should suffer consequences.
damikesc 19 minutes ago
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"Oh, we should put the universities in as co-signers on the loans. They should be forced to pay for half of all discharged loans."
Actually a very good idea from a policy standpoint. The universities were the beneficiaries of the student loans without incurring any of the risk of default. Universities enjoyed the benefits of increased tuition which was facilitated in large part by the increased availability of student loans.
"Oh, we should put the universities in as co-signers on the loans. They should be forced to pay for half of all discharged loans."
Sounds like a good way for the universities to just refuse to do so.
Why would a university ever co-sign the loans like this? What advantage is it for them?
They get the tuition from the loan.
That just leads back to the same problem though.
If you have $250,000 in debt from Medical school, and no real assets....logically it makes sense to declare bankruptcy. Even if you have a high paying job coming up and could easily repay them...right NOW you have no real assets and they can't repossess your education. So take the loans, get the education and degree, declare bankruptcy, and boom, "free medical school tuition".
The school can do the logic just as easily as a bank can. It's a bad loan if there's no collateral and can be easily gotten rid of.
That is a somewhat verkrampte take on human nature.
Time was, it was dishonourable not to pay a debt. These days the commercial world is set up to regard default as just a matter of business, no question of honor involved.
But nothing prevents a well endowed college making student loans and making it clear that the debt is a matter of honor. If you don’t want to regard it as such then don’t apply.
Wilfully* defaulting on such a debt, having agreed up front that your honor is on the line, tells the world something about you. The world including spouse candidates, potential employers, business associates, and electors
should you choose to go that way. I’m not sure it would look that good in a confirmation hearing either.
Might even get us better quality college kids.
* wilfully leaves plenty of room for genuinely hard cases where the college accepts you have no prospect of being able to pay, and so waives some or all.
"Time was, it was dishonourable not to pay a debt. "
Time was they would throw your behind in jail.
Student debt defaulters ought on average to be young and fit.
Maybe it would be better to let them work off their debt by laboring to construct more jails !
Why should we do it?
Universities are the ones charging exorbitant amounts for a product that is of increasingly less value. If they think it is a good idea to get into debt --- and the schools will HAPPILY tell students it is --- then they should stick by their advice.
Mind you, we should not have the Feds involved in student loans at all. I'd be happy allowing banks handle it with no federal government backstop to protect from losses.
Universities might have to cut their costs immensely, but that seems like their problem, not mine.
Indeed. So much so that the entire current way of universities charging for degrees would need to change radically. Consider though, when did tuition inflation begin to become a huge problem ? Here's a hint. The first bankruptcy restrictions came into play in 1976. How much older than that are the universities with huge endowments ? They seemed to thrive just fine before that point didn't they ?
Not all of them. Consider the reasoning about why patents should exist in the first place. There is the fear that trade and the general good would be hampered by folks keeping their discoveries to themselves as trade secrets. The argument is that it is good to incentive openness by granting an exclusive license. Assume for the purpose of this argument that I accept that so we don't get derailed by other failures of the patent system. For the case of universities in which I, the tax payer, am already charged for the development of these new ideas, what possible good comes of giving a private entity sole title to work I have funded ?
The bottom line is do work that I don't fund and it is a good deal for you to show me what you are doing and keep the license. Public entities funded by my tax dollar, why should someone else have sole rights.
"Consider the reasoning about why patents should exist in the first place. There is the fear that trade and the general good would be hampered by folks keeping their discoveries to themselves as trade secrets"
That's really only part of it (and the smaller part). The real fear is that people won't invest money, time, and resources in an developing invention that has no rate of return.
Let's give you an example. Let's say I've invented a cure for cancer, works great in the animal models, works great in the first cohort of patients. We could sell it at $1,000 a dose to millions of people and make billions of dollars. All I need from you is $200 million to do the Phase 3 trials the FDA requires.
As an investor, do you invest? If...
A. You have the patent rights, you can sell this an an exclusive product, and easily recoup your monetary losses. Or....
B. If you don't have the patent rights (because the initial invention was based on a small percentage on a government grant), you "could" pay $200 million in the development costs. But once that's done, any other company could come in and sell the same product...except they didn't need to pay those $200 million in development costs, so they can undercut you on cost. You end up taking a substantial (anticipated) loss.
That's the issue
3 does not get rid of patents (though it might decrease some of the more frivolous ones), it merely moves them out of public institutions.
If my tax dollars are used by someone at the IRS or DoD to invent something, they don't get to patent it. If I invent something at a private corporation, I am (almost universally) required to assign that patent to the employer who paid for the work. Why should anyone else be allowed to enrich themselves with a patent created on my dime merely because the tax dollars flow through a university?
"If my tax dollars are used by someone at the IRS or DoD to invent something, they don't get to patent it. "
That's not actually correct. They DO get to patent it, but generally the rights of the patent are assigned to the US Government. Those patent rights can then be licensed or sold off by the US government to other organizations (for further development/commercialization).
What is proposed would eliminate those patent rights for the US Government, which would mean it would be impossible to license or sell those patent rights (which would mean no commercialization).
I note that universities have become notorious for price discrimination, where they set absolutely outrageous nominal prices, and then find various ways to 'discount' that price to different students in order to extract from each student the maximum amount of money they can yield.
This practice is incompatible with the claim that taxing the endowments would hit the 'customers', because the hit on the customers isn't a function of costs, just of how much blood the stone has in it, and taxing the endowment won't put more blood into the stone.
Is that true? Of 'universities' just in general?
I have no doubt there are schools that operate like that. Probably some of the very elite ones even.
But you're writing a helluva generalized check there.
It's at least somewhat true. When my daughter was applying to college, the nominal cost for her various choices ranged between $20K and $90K per year. After factoring in the amount of aid offered the actual cost ranged between $20K and $30K.
Price discrimination based on ability to pay is...not very scandalous.
"extract from each student the maximum amount of money they can yield" is a narrower and different thing.
Thus far unsupported, and while not unbelievable in certain instances quite a lift if you want to apply it to universities generally.
"Price discrimination based on ability to pay is...not very scandalous."
I don't recall saying that it was. Nor do I recall saying that it applied to all universities, hence my use of the word, "somewhat."
But at least you didn't feel the need to add a disparaging comment or accusation of bad faith, so that's good.
Sorry if that was unclear - I have issue with anything you've written - my points are directed at Brett Bellmore's OP.
Didn't say it was scandalous. (I might think it's a bad practice, though.)
I said it militated against the idea that taxes on endowments would be passed onto students. Because the amount paid by students isn't a function of costs. If anything, it runs the other way: They squeeze out every cent they can get, then find a way to spend it.
By "they" I mean the university management, and what do the spend it on?
Management. Themselves!
The fact that an organization is a 'non profit' doesn't mean nobody is profiting.
For the third time: I don’t think you have supported this.
That's because you are a denialist who rejects well-known facts. https://academic.oup.com/restud/article-abstract/90/3/1228/6651855
And it's not only top universities that do this. https://economics-finance.org/jefe/econ/Lawsonpaper.pdf
For a less academic take that agrees entirely with Brett, see https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/upshot/how-colleges-know-what-you-can-afford-and-the-limits-of-that-tactic.html:
Yeah, you very clearly just Googled "university price discrimination studies' and didn't read a lot of the results.
Your first source is not on point: "This article is the first to estimate the consequences of allowing colleges to use the FAFSA in their pricing decisions. I build and estimate a structural model of college pricing and simulate counterfactuals wherein some or all of the FAFSA information is restricted. "
Yours second source actively contradicts Brett's thesis:
"This paper looks empirically at the financial aid award practices at a small, Midwestern, private university. By awarding more financial aid, colleges and universities effectively price discriminate; that is, they charge some students more
than others. The results indicate that students with better high school records and test scores and with more financial need are given more aid."
Your third source is your best, but it just recapitulates what Brett does - takes a single example and a lot of theorycrafting to claim something is widespread without supporting that thesis. Best you got there is an appeal to the authority of the NYT.
If you're going to jump into back up other people's arguments (and insult me for calling them on not providing support) you need to spend a bit more time with it to be convincing.
Deny harder, denialist.
Yeah, you tried and you failed. So you're reduced to name-calling.
I've noticed this happens to you a lot around here.
You owned yourself by quoting a summary of the method of the first article, ignoring the very next sentences in the abstract:
(emphasis added on the parts agreeing with Brett's theses about price discrimination being notorious, being strongly leveraged already, and a bad practice)
The second article rebuts your very first comment, where you tried to pretend that this only happens at "some of the very elite ones". It's a common practice.
The third one does not, in fact, take a single example and pretend all of academia is like that. It cites a number of country-wide statistics and how they have changed over time, in ways that support Brett's original claim that price discrimination is close to maxxed out, meaning that additional costs cannot be transferred to the consumers (without losing at least some of them). You might have gotten your mistaken idea if you only read the first few sentences of it, though.
You ignore all the facts because you have no shtick but blatant denialism. You just don't like being labeled as what you are.
You seem to have lost the thread re: Brett's original thesis now. Which wasn't about optimal funding structures at all, it was about universities' overly acquisitive intent.
I like that you're putting work in! You do seem to be learning some about school financing.
Slow down a bit and I think you'll make some great points. I'm not rolling pangloss on student loans, so I may even agree with you.
As usual, you resort to straw men because you can't engage with what others actually wrote.
Gaslight0, look into the average 47% "tuition discount" amongst private schools.
Why should university endowments receive any different tax treatment than say, a hedge fund? Many endowments are managed by hedge funds anyway!
Ignoring motivations, if you want to subsidize something do so directly. Don’t pass favorable tax rules for one thing that affects another … ordinary people have to pay tax on investment income, even when reinvested. Universities should as well.
Now I happen to think capital gains taxes are, well, silly. It imposes a cost on “changing investments” that’s extremely high and distortionary. But while they exist, I fail to see why universities get special treatment.
I agree with both aladdin and armchair
The additional compliance costs of paying the income tax is minimal. Jensen overstates the costs that is or will be incurred to minimize the tax with his comparison with the estate tax. The estate tax is currently at 40% (previously at 50% and 60% ) which is punitive tax whereas this foundation income tax is only at 1.4% of income. Money managers will continue to manage the investments based on growth net of income tax costs. A 1.4% tax rate or even a 10% tax rate isnt going to affect the economics of investment decisions very much.
Seriously, do you people understand the concept of not-for-profit? Are you arguing that the entire category shouldn't exist, that the Red Cross and the 1st Baptist Church and the National Rifle Association and the Little League baseball team should all be taxed? Or is this just driven by ressentiment over the perceived liberalism of universities?
You are working really hard to ignore the existence of the policy judgement that organizations with huge fundraising activities that pile up insanely large endowments are not entirely non-for-profit organizations.
Note that I said existence of the policy judgement. I offer no opinion here on its wisdom.
I will concede that this particular method of attacking their non-profit status is indirect, inefficient and clumsy - but those descriptions apply to the vast majority of our tax code.
So, yes, if the Red Cross, the 1st Baptist, the NRA and my local Little League team start piling up massive amounts of wealth simply for the sake of that wealth like the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages did, then I might be sympathetic to modern (that is, more due process protective) versions of The Dissolution of the Monasteries decree (1536 by Henry VIII), The Ecclesiastical confiscations (1836 by Juan Álvarez Mendizábal), the confiscations during the First French Revolution or the many, many other examples throughout history of entities abusing then losing their non-profit protections.
The NRA makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year. The Red Cross makes billions.
And they use those dollars to advance their respective missions, they don't merely pile it up like Scrooge McDuck. Their respective endowments (and more specifically, their endowment to operating expenses ratio) is nothing like the universities being discussed above.
Right or wrong, that's a distinction that Congress, when passing the 2017 law, said matters.
And those two IN PARTICULAR should be taxed.
"The NRA makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year. The Red Cross makes billions."
This is actually worth discussing. The question isn't the overall size. It's the accumulation of wealth. Yale, for example, has revenues of ~ $6 Billion (With expenses at $5.5 Billion). But its endowment is much higher at $40 Billion. It's concentrating wealth, and doing it at increasingly high rates. Meanwhile, it has 9 people making more than $1 Million a year in compensation...
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/60646973
Something like the Red Cross by contrast is in a similar area in terms of revenue and spending (~3 Billion for both), but its assets are also in that ~3 Billion area. It's also not paying a single employee over $1 Million a year (unlike Yale).
https://www.redcross.org/content/dam/redcross/about-us/publications/2023-publications/FY2023-ARC-Final-Issued-AFS.pdf
It's the accumulation of wealth (by these Universities) that isn't being used productively that is attracting attention. And no one is saying that you can't keep a little behind to make sure you make payroll. But at some point, it goes beyond "a little behind." When you can run your entire "non-profit" organization 5 years, without needing a cent of revenue or taking out a single loan, you've got to wonder...shouldn't that stockpile instead be spent on the mission? And if it isn't...is the stockpile really serving the interests of society in such a way that it should continue to be classified as "non-profit"?
The chief utility of a non-profit having a huge endowment is that the people running it no longer have to care what anybody thinks about their decisions. They're insulating themselves from outside opinions about the mission they chose to pursue, and how they pursue it.
If you're a non-profit that's spending money about as fast as it comes in, and only have an endowment enough to ride out short term fluctuations, you have to care what your supporters think. Like, the NRA doesn't dare piss off its membership, because they take an immediate hit in the bottom line, and can't just reach into a bottomless piggy bank to make up the shortfall.
But if you've got FU money stashed away, you can tell your donors to FO when you change the mission of the org to something unrelated, like doing politics in place of educating people.
They really are. Having lots of money is not the definition of a not not-for-profit.
What might make more sense would be a requirement like that for private foundations: they must spend X% of their endowment each year on their mission. It's harder to craft such a rule for universities, since they have a number of discrete objectives and operations, whereas the sole purpose of a foundation is to distribute money. But the philosophical point appears sounder than just taxing them for being big.
That rule (spend X% of your endowment each year) would indeed be simpler and might be better. But it could also be argued that it would create its own unintended consequences and distortions. For the sake of a hypothetical, your X% rule says I should spend $10M this year. I had really good uses for $9M of that but by Dec 31 still haven't found a good use for that last $1M this year. But I'll have a really good use for it starting Jan 2 of next year. Your rule would incent me to waste that last $1M to avoid the penalty, leaving me short for the good opportunity on Jan 2.
One could argue that the current rule allows more flexibility since it doesn't impose hard deadlines - it just says that if you ignore your mission for too long ("too long" not defined by time but evidenced by piling up too much cash), we'll start to hit you with penalties for doing so but will allow you maximum flexibility until then.
To be clear, the rule for foundations doesn't say that they must distribute 5%; it says that if they don't, then they are taxed on their earnings.
Dont confuse a for profit enterprise as a not-for-profit simply becasue they have an exemption from taxation under section 501 et seq.
Almost all the big enterprises are "not-for-profit " in name only.
Correct. The entire category of not for profit should not exist.
However the category of gift taxes should also not exist. So donations to the churches or colleges shouldn’t be taxed. Nor should donations to me.
How would you stop an employer from "gifting" much of an employee's salary (say, everything above minimum wage)?
When universities become hedge funds, something is wrong. If a person gets a tax write-off for donating to a school, and then the school doesn't pay tax on their investments, something is wrong. This is not 'donating to charity,' is it? Maybe as the size of the endowment goes up, the tax benefit of donating goes down? We're talking about a tiny minority of schools here - a donation to a state school would do far more benefit that piling still more gold on Harvard's pile.
So the rabid anti-intellectualism of the right continues to grow.
Tax endowments, cut research grants, cut student loans, attack tenure, etc.
IOW, take one of the country's greatest assets - our university system - and tear it down because some of the people involved say and do dumb things.
Bernard....
The endowment needs to do something good. If it just sits there, growing, concentrating wealth, and never actually is put to use...then what's the point?
You don't think universities spend their endowments?
"The endowments...just keep going up...Harvard's endowment is up 44% in the last 10 years. Yale's is 73% up in the last 10 years. Stanford is up 75% in that time frame."
If Armchair's numbers are correct, it would seem not.
Bingo.
1. .That is not the same as universities not spending them.
2. Yale and Stanford are not universities generally
3. Since mid-2014, the S&P 500 has produced a total return of 233.6% (https://www.fool.com/investing/2024/08/05/average-stock-market-return-10-years/)
In context, these numbers are bupkis.
1. Sure, they spend *part* of them but if the purpose of having an endowment is to fund education I'd expect it to be a much larger piece. So mostly the same.
2. JonFrum's original comment was regarding universities that have become hedge funds, a group to which Yale and Harvard conspicuously belong. No moving goalposts...
3. So what? See point 1 above.
You want them to spend down the principle?
It's invested. Unless they were awful investors, they spent quite a bit of the income they got based on the numbers Armchair put forth. If they don't spend all of it, chalk it up to risk aversion.
And this isn't the JoeFrum thread. You seem confused.
*principal.
Dang it!
Right you are, I had Bernarrd11 muted for some reason and this comment thread appeared to be started by one above (JonFrum).
My point is that increases that large could perhaps be spent (further) reducing student costs. IIRC a conspirator tried to take over one of the Ivy's the board of regents and eliminate tuition. Something like that...
Could perhaps be spent further?
Maybe! But we're now in hairsplitting opinion and judgement territory, and we generally err on the side of freedom at that point.
As I note below, the real increases are not in fact particularly large.
Inflation over the past ten years is around 35%, so none of these schools, especially Harvard, is just piling up money in its endowment.
Bernard - the problem with your response is that you are arguing that taxing the funds income cuts into the money used for education , research, etc.
If that was the case, then your argument would be valid. Very little of the funds (percentage wise) are actually used for educational purposes.
Even assuming you're right the issue would be with management not with the money itself.
Maybe you should open your own school of Everyone Knows, You Are Just Intellectually Dishonest where you dish out the ignorant hot takes and get real huffy when people call you on it.
My statement is spot on -
You would know that if you even made an effort to become educated instead of wasting everyones time making your repetitive uninformed comments
Joe,
I take it you have evidence to back up your claim. Could you share it?
And of course, there is the issue of what is considered an educational purpose, a point on which I bet you and the average university president disagree.
We've watched the Left rob poor folks to give rich folks college loan payoffs. Screw your regressive tax policy wet dreams.
Universities are not worth the money and they have higher price increases than health insurance ever dreamed of having.
Time for them to come under the same scrutiny so many of their faculty demand of others.
Spite spite delusion spite.
Every policy you favor seems to be driven by spite feeding into a cycle of unsupported dogma about the evil libby libs.
No on is that evil. But some, like you, can convince themselves to support evil things if they keep themselves angry enough.
I forget --- multi billion dollar universities are the UNDERDOGS in society. Cannot expect them to foot any bills. Silliness, I tell ya!
University professors have publicly demanded all kinds of spending come into closer scrutiny. I think their spending should as well.
Harvard is sitting on over $50B. Why should they be exempt? They're not a church which is separate from the state (though, any churches who took federal funds to, say, house illegals should potentially be looked into losing THEIR tax-free status)
Well, yours certainly wasn't. Even if it was free.
Universities are not worth the money
Not much of a believer in markets, are you?
I mean, saying X is not worth $Y when millions are buying X at $Y is sort of silly.
Are you attempting to argue that universities are a market-driven business? Seriously?
Why does the case for taxing endowments seem like the case for taxing wealth generally? The measure in question is a tax on the income from endowments, not the endowments themselves.
Regardless of how much revenue this tax raises, it’s worth doing on general principles. Taxation isn’t (or shouldn’t be) a moral judgment—it’s a shared sacrifice. Making some organizations exempt on the grounds of some great social good they allegedly do encourages an unhealthy sense of entitlement.
Including churches?
Including ALL charities.
Churches, yes. Why not? If they have large investment portfolios and make large gains, sure. If they have (lay) employees, they pay the employer share of payroll taxes, if they buy something, they pay applicable sales taxes, and so on. Stock market gains seem to fall into the same category.
Surely the proposal is to tax income generated from the endowments, not to tax endowments directly?
You haven't been reading our resident right wing commenters enough; they've made it clear that they want to attack the endowments themselves.
"they've made it clear that they want to attack the endowments themselves."
No, we made it clear it was income to be taxed. Here's the quote.
"Harvard has a $50 Billion endowment. If it's earning a 5% rate of return (yes, that may be low), that's $2.5 Billion a year in income. Put that at a modest 15% rate, and it's $375 million a year in tax revenue"
I wasn't talking about this thread specifically.
Leftists here want to put conservatives' heads on spikes. They don't say so in this thread specifically, of course, but we all know what they want.
Ah, the good ol' strawman.
Doesn't matter what is actually argued in the thread. It's "clear" it's a different argument (which is coincidentally easier to oppose), based on "other threads" which will remain oddly undisclosed.
David's hitting Sarcastr0 levels of argument.
Noscitur a sociis 3 hours ago
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"Surely the proposal is to tax income generated from the endowments, not to tax endowments directly?"
Agreed - its a tax on income - thus properly called an income tax. If it was a wealth tax, it would be a tax on the value of the endowment.
I agree that taxing the balance of an endowment is a wealth tax (and wealth taxes are counterproductive no matter who they're imposed on). But taxing the realized income on an endowment seems no different than the taxes applied on income of every other institution in the US. Is anyone seriously proposing to tax the balances directly?
By the way, I had not realized that the endowment incomes were only taxed at 1.4%. If true, that is far below the tax rate for everyone else and creates its own opportunities for gamesmanship. Taxing that income at a higher rate will merely change the gamesmanship rules a bit, it won't start or stop it.
The comment about "cliff effect" is more worrisome but that's an argument to fix how the tax is applied, not to kill the idea entirely.
.
Answering the question, "is there a tax academics *don't* like"?
Thoughts and prayers.