The Volokh Conspiracy
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No Quid Pro Quo. So?
With a deferred prosecution and a dismissal without prejudice, who needs a quid pro quo?
Paul Cassell notes here that the lawyers for Eric Adams have denied, and have offered to make their denial under oath, that there was any prior negotiated quid pro quo involved in the deal under which the DOJ has moved for a dismissal of criminal charges against Mayor Adams. The lawyers wrote:
What we never said or suggested to anyone was that Mayor Adams would do X in exchange for Y, and no one said or suggested to us that they would do Y in exchange for X.
As a consequence, Cassell writes, "the argument that the dismissal motion is inappropriate because a quid pro quo was negotiated has effectively collapsed. Period." (emphasis added). [Though Cassell adds: "To be sure, as noted in my earlier post, one can still legitimately debate whether the dismissal motion was appropriate."]
There's an air of unreality to all of this discussion about whether or not there was a prior negotiated quid pro quo, when in fact it makes no difference whatsoever. Who needs a prior express quid pro quo when you have a deferred prosecution and a dismissal without prejudice?!
Adams doesn't have to agree beforehand to anything for this to be entirely inappropriate. The threat of re-instituting prosecution does all of the work that a prior negotiated agreement would do - it gets Adams to do what the President wants him to do, because everyone involved understands that if he doesn't, the charges will be re-filed and he probably goes to jail. Whether the conversation in which the Attorney General tells Adams that the President would like it if ICE agents could freely enter NYC detention centers, schools, playgrounds, etc. takes place before the motion to dismiss is filed or after the motion to dismiss is filed is entirely immaterial. The result is precisely the same: Adams will take official action as Mayor that he would not otherwise take, not because it is in the interest of New Yorkers, but because of his personal interest in avoiding jail time.
Why else has the DOJ chosen to dismiss these charges without prejudice? What do they think might happen to get them to re-institute the prosecution down the road besides "he didn't play ball"?
And notice, by the way, that, as a coercive tool, the dismissal without prejudice route is far more efficient and effective than a prior negotiated quid pro quo deal. In the latter, you need to specify in advance what actions you want Adams to take; with the former, you can wait and see what you'd like him to do as things move along.
This is not just business as usual. I refer again - for the last time, I promise - to my earlier hypothetical, which needs no express quid pro quo to be effective, and chilling: the Attorney General calls up Justice Barrett, and the following one-sided conversation ensues:
Attorney General: "Justice Barrett, we have information that you have cheated on your taxes, information sufficient to bring forth an indictment against you. We're not going to do that now - but we reserve the right to do so in the future. And surely you know how interested President Trump is in the outcome of X v. Y, now coming before the Court. We know you'll do the right thing."
No quid pro quo needed. Justice Barrett doesn't have to say a word or agree to anything for this to work just fine as a kind of blackmail. [According to Robert Caro's LBJ biography, this was J. Edgar Hoover's preferred modus operandi when he was FBI Director; if the FBI had turned up damaging personal information about a high-ranking political figure, Hoover would dispatch his assistant Clyde Jenkins to speak to the official; Jenkins would inform him that they had the information, and then say something to the effect of "Don't worry; we're keeping it secret." At which point High-Ranking Official was, thereafter, in Hoover's pocket.]
You're free to believe that this is not what Trump is up to here, but I'm quite certain that it is.
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The whole reason for my outrage just disappeared, but dammit who needs a reason?
Yup! "Bah, who needs an actual offense?"
Aw shucks. The defendants say they didn't agree out loud. I guess it wasn't bribery.
I do love the leftist "lawyers" here who start from the premise of guilty. Well. Only for political opponents.
He argues why this is wrong.
People can find some fig leaf (e.g., according to one person executive policy is not the same as judicial acts, so the Barrett hypo won't bother them) but his argument holds.
No actual quid pro quo leaves Post wish-casting one. His wish-casting isn't an argument.
Absolutely correct.
The fig leaf for those who missed it (well more of a rich and luxuriant fur coat - which are now back "in" I'm told) is simply that law enforcement's proper role is ..... to enforce the law.
If they put the squeeze on a judge to get him to deliver something other than what the judge honestly thinks is "the law", the judge will be producing "not the law."
And therefore law enforcement will be squeezing to achieve "not the law." That's not their lane, by definition. Or rather it is their lane, but they'd be driving in the wrong direction down the lane.
Judges are "special" precisely because they are required, without any discretion, to deliver the very thing - the law - that law enforcement is charged with enforcing.
It's in the name. We don't call it : "Not-the-law enforcement."
The executive is required to enforce the law, including making executive policy that is a form of law (such as agency action).
"The squeeze" is being put on him to enforce the law in a certain way, not based on his independent judgment, but based on what the person with the strings wants. He was on t.v. with the border czar to underline just that as someone noted elsewhere.
Judges interpret the law, another public role, and similarly have a public duty to do so by their independent judgment, not like a puppet on a string.
Like an executive, they have discretion to weigh various things in doing so. What they don't have the right to do is to do so for illegitimate reasons, such as avoiding prosecution.
I believe I mentioned before that I am not a Chevron fan. To the extent that "executive policy" is law, it is unconstitutional law. To the extent that executive policy is executive policy, the executive has discretion to change it.
In any event, the day to day actions of the Mayor of NYC are not "law" by even the wildest stretch of the imagination. They're just executive decisions, about which he has discretion.
As I said in an earlier thread, executive policy is akin to law. Cooperating (or not) with the feds is such an example (that was no stretch for JoeBronx or me).
I appreciate that.
But then sadly your "law" has become an incoherent semantic muddle like your "woman."
Clyde Tolson
"but his argument holds."
Not really. Let's say, hypothetically, that the case is dismissed without prejudice. Then Adams turns around and says "NYC is a sanctuary city, no cooperating with ICE!"
What's the DoJ going to do? Say, "Yeah, we dismissed the case, but now we're picking it back up?" Adams will get the case dismissed again for selective prosecution. He'll argue "The case didn't change...the only thing that changed is that I said I support ICE. And then they brought the case again. It's damn near textbook selective prosecution".
And he'll win.
Um, no. That is in fact not selective prosecution, let alone "textbook" such. I don't know why it hasn't sunk in after all the times NG has explained it: "selective prosecution" means that you have identically situated people who weren't prosecuted. So unless some other big city mayor accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars of airline tickets (as well as the other stuff) and wasn't prosecuted, Adams could not win on that ground at all.
Not to mention that for Adams to claim that he was being prosecuted for not cooperating with ICE would require that he admit he was lying when he said there was no quid pro quo.
"selective prosecution" means that you have identically situated people who weren't prosecuted."
Adams would have a identically situated person. Himself. Same exact case. Same exact situation. And the charges were dismissed.
Change one little thing....(Now Adams has made a decision in his official role as Mayor unrelated to the case).
And suddenly Adams is charged.
I remain confused why people automatically assume quid pro quos are illegal.
(I am opposed to what the Trump administration is trying to do here.)
P.S. This is what is problematic of today's administrative (AKA deep) state. Because it is mostly captured by people sympathetic to the Democrat Party, in many cases it does not need to be told what to do by any party leader. For example, that is how CRT/DEI was springing up during the first Trump administration, below the outrage radar. Trump noticed it too late in his term to matter.
This is why the Trump 2.0 very carefully designated acting officials throughout the government, having learned its lesson the first time with how Russia-collusion-gate became a thing, courtesy of the existing inherited bureaucracy leadership.
Indeed, I thought one of his biggest mistakes in his first term was just assuming that, because you were signing somebody's paycheck, they were working for you. That's generally true in industry, but very often not remotely true in politics and government.
In politics, the elected ones are working for The People. They'll be first in line to loudly huff this!
Then immediately turn to lording and twisting and engineering the miraculous onset of Gregory House level investment savantism in their spouses.
Of course, the appointees and hirelings all work for The People, too!
They aren't. Quid pro quo is what you do when you buy coffee at Starbucks.
But a quid pro quo involving a public official's exercise of his/her discretion to act or refrain from acting -- THAT is illegal. As is rewarding officials for doing so after the fact. The quid pro quo need not be expressly stated, but for certain variants of the crime, the prosecution must show at least a this-for-that exchange or agreement.
Maybe. But those who like laws and sausages should never watch either being made. There's every manner of tit for tat hidden from public eyes. Many claim none of this is even illegal.
Trump has priors for quid pro quo. Remember when he extorted Ukraine? I'm sure at the time Putin smiled to himself and thought, 'These duraki won't lift a finger to help Ukraine. Time to start prepping Operation Bomb the Nazis.'
Of course, after crossing Trump's fragile masculinity, I'll bet any of you a million bucks Trump, during one of his tete-a-tetes sans US interpreters with Putin, said, 'Ukraine is all yours, comrade.'
Of course, after crossing Trump's fragile masculinity, I'll bet any of you a million bucks Trump, during one of his tete-a-tetes sans US interpreters with Putin, said, 'Ukraine is all yours, comrade.'
"Ukraine is winning! Er, I mean...Ukraine will win!!!"
3 years into this bloodbath, how's that claim/prediction working out? How exactly to you see it coming to an end any time soon?
I don't know man. These brave people are fighting five enemy nations at once. Now even America is attacking them.
I'm really despondent about this. Over the past eight years, there has been one bright spot that restored my faith in humanity. Now we're stabbing them in the back.
Now even America is attacking them.
Bullshit rhetoric isn't an answer. Pressuring them into a peace deal isn't "attacking them".
So you have no answer to a way to end the war before more destruction and lives lost on both sides, and would rather see it continue than for Trump to bring it to an end.
I'm all for bringing it to an end, but not with a Russian victory. At the very least, there must be a security guarantee that prevents the war from resuming or Putin from installing a puppet regime.
Did you feel the same about the Russian grab of Crimea ? Absent any Donbass invasion, what should the United States have done to prevent the Russian seizure of Crimea - or failing that to restore it to Ukraine ?
How about the US grab of Hawaii ? Should the Brits have sailed in with gunboats to reverse it ?
The war in Crimea was over right after it started. All the West could do was condemn and sanction. The same might have happened to the rest of Ukraine but for Zelensky. But thanks to him, the West can insist on a better deal to end the war (acknowledging that Trump might screw it up).
I must admit I don't much about the history of Hawaii. But our annexation of it smells pretty bad at first blush.
But thanks to him, the West can insist on a better deal to end the war (acknowledging that Trump might screw it up).
So what was this "better deal" that the Biden admin brokered that you think Trump might screw up?
I'm all for bringing it to an end, but not with a Russian victory.
At this point, any Russian "victory" is going to be a Pyrrhic one at best, given the enormous toll this war has taken on that country. A Putin victory, maybe. But I don't see the virtue in dragging out a war that is not going well for Ukraine, and shows no signs of going their way anytime soon, costing both sides thousands and thousands of more lives and general destruction just to spite Putin, no matter how much of a piece of shit he is.
There is no way to end the war on reasonably just terms before more destruction and lives lost on both sides. (I don't GAF about "lives lost" on Russia's side, given that they're the aggressors. And it's up to Ukraine to decide whether Ukrainian lives and property are worth it.)
I would — subject, as I said, to Ukraine's wishes — rather see it continue that for Trump to bring it to an end on Putin's terms.
Trump has unequivocally put us on the side of evil. For the first time in my life I'm ashamed to be an American.
There is no way to end the war on reasonably just terms before more destruction and lives lost on both sides.
So your answer is also to just let the war continue and have people die by the thousands because "muh just terms".
(I don't GAF about "lives lost" on Russia's side, given that they're the aggressors.
Given that a huge number of those Russian lives are conscripts who have no choice in the matter (and now NK ones as well) that statement isn't the virtue signal you think it is.
There are things worth fighting — and dying — for.
Oh, and even conscripts have a choice.
There are things worth fighting — and dying — for.
Brave words from someone not doing any of the fighting and/or dying, making it easy for you to offer no realistic way forward other than more meat-grinding with no end in sight.
Oh, and even conscripts have a choice.
Russian prison doesn't strike me as a really great choice. But maybe it appeals to you.
International relations is primarily an exercise in extortion. It's essentially how the US obtained control of Hawaii, and how the Panama Canal got built, to pick two historical examples.
What's impacting the prospects of a peace deal in Ukraine is Ukraine refusing to sign the rare earth minerals deal Trump has previously offered. It's quid pro quos all the way down.
The only thing "wrong" with Trump's prior interactions with Ukraine which brought about the first impeachment was that he was essentially correct that a political opponent had benefited from a facially corrupt business dealing deserving actual investigation, the exposure of which would benefit him (Trump). That Trump might benefit did not make it illegal or impeachable. A president conditioning the sending of (non-military) aid in such cases is not corrupt, especially since subsequently Biden was also delaying actual military aid delivery in support of his feckless managed escalation policy.
(We know potentially illegal things may not get investigated, because the Biden DOJ did EXACTLY that, trying it's best until spotlighted/shamed, not to investigate/indict the same person at the center of the Burisma case, the president's son, on domestic criminal charges. No, Burisma had not already been thoroughly investigated. It was investigated as well as the Hunter domestic charges, which is to say trying not to find anything wrong.)
(No, I've never voted for Trump. I am not a MAGA apologist. I think Trump's public approach right now to a Ukraine peace deal is terrible, including the rare earth metals extortion.)
You are looking at this the wrong way.
BIDEN brought the prosecution in retalitation for doing something that Trump supports, so Trump -- feeling Adams unjustly prosecuted -- is unprosecuting him.
If anything, Trump is saying "It means something to support Trump."
I believe you meant to say:
"The grand jury found probable cause to conclude that when Adams did a thing that Trump liked, the thing Adams did met the elements of a criminal offense."
Adams didn't sell his office to Turkey?
I heard of indicting a ham sandwich. But not a turkey sandwich.
I have been waiting for someone named Hamilton Sandwich (no relation to Perry Mason's Hamilton Burger) to commit a crime and get prosecuted. Headline: Grand Jury Indicts Ham Sandwich.
I don't know :
"Grand Jury indicts Ham Burger"
works for me.
Turkey sandwiches deserve to be indicted.
Simply put. If you believe that, the answer is to dismiss with prejudice, not to hold the threat of prosecution over Adams's head.
An interesting theory.
A dead body is found. A case is built up against Katall V. Womble. Charges are laid. But the DA finds that the prosecutor he assigned hates Womble because Womble snaked the prosecutor's girlfriend in college. So the DA decides to review the case, which he'll get around to in a month or three.
In the meantime he goes to court to have the case dismissed ... with prejudice ?
What if Womble really did it ? You think the DA should drop it entirely and forever because the prosecutor he assigned has animus against the main suspect ?
It's easy to make up hypotheticals that turn on fundamentally different scenarios/issues than the Adams case. Great work!
You need to work on your hypos...Big City Mayor accepting a $100k's worth of airline tickets, hotel rooms, and upgrades to both in exchange for greasing the Fire Inspection approval of a country's newly constructed embassy hotel is bad ("...but for Wales, Richard?")...but it's not murder. Sometimes letting less serious wrongdoing go, to prevent a different and more serious wrong...is right.
In most Circuits, a federal district judge can order dismissal with prejudice if the judge finds prosecutorial misconduct. If Judge Ho determines Bove's actions rise to that level, ordering the DoJ's request for dismissal without prejudice be changed to dismissal with prejudice, would provide a simple and elegant solution, addressing what DoJ says they want, while leaving NY the ability to remove the mayor from office on their own.
Works for me.
I don't get your point, I'm afraid. How would the lesson of my hypo be different if the crime was fraud or burglary rather than murder ?
"addressing what DoJ says they want"
Obviously if the judge thought that he would be being disingenuous. (You of course have not had time to think it through, and anyway it's not your job.)
What the DoJ says it wants, is dismissal without prejudice, so that the new SDNY USA can review the case at his leisure. If the judge orders dismissal with prejudice then he is concluding that it is improper for the new SDNY USA to review the case, so as to reindict or not, after due consideration. Which would be an interesting take on the responsibilities of US Attorneys.
Please, we both know you know the lesson of your hypo is different. Relatively minor financial graft leads to a lesson far different that that of murder, and noticing that isn't arguing the hypo.
Interesting that you bring up disingenuous...something I've noticed before as one of your long-time go-to debate techniques...
Often used by people pretending to lack knowledge of a subject they are actually quite familiar with; or claiming to support something they actually do not.
Like not knowing the primary goal Bove (and Spire) say they want, is dismissal of the indictment as too politically motivated (adding only today, a reversal of their previous position on the indictment's legal basis, and please don't pretend not to know what that was).
Without prejudice would be a secondary goal to that, but with the history and current course of action of previous Trump/Musk attorneys Bove & Spire, it becomes a co-primary goal differing little from Trump's decades-old crime boss extortion schtick: nice little gig you got going here, Mayor. Be a shame if something bad happened to it.
You are also aware of the current facts supporting a reasonable legal argument for at least investigation of potential DoJ quid pro quo/extortion-related misconduct. Again, please stop pretending neither of us know what those are (start with the fact that there were numerous other people in the room who witnessed what happened, one creating a contemporaneous record of the session, which Bove ordered to be handed over to him).
After today's conference, It would not be an exceptional action for Judge Ho not to make an immediate decision on Bove's dismissal motion, but (disingenuousness not involved, and it beneath you to accuse the Judge of that) to to order a hearing, put people with knowledge under oath, order DoJ to produce relevant records including the contemporaneous notes Bove, and use the hearing record to decide without/with prejudice dismissal (disingenuousness not involved, and it beneath you to accuse the Judge of that).
I try not to make a habit of predictions from incomplete data, but my SWAG guess is this ends with Judge Ho, in this unique set of circumstances, approving the current DoJ dismissal motion. I am not certain this aligns with the course of justice, but there's just so much precedent that, even given unique facts, it's hard to create a new unique precedent.
My other, better fact-supported prediction is that if this works, it will not be the last such course of action Bove's DoJ manages. Only question is who to?
Leaving aside the "disingenuous" hissy fit, I really don't have any idea why you think my hypo would be different if it were about fraud rather than murder.
The point, obviously, is that if you want time, and fresh eyes, to review the case - murder or fraud - you don't want it dismissed with prejudice. Please explain - within the hypo - what it is about fraud and murder that would make you want "with prejudice" in one, and "without prejudice" in the other.
Lee Moore — Your notion is the problem, that an open-ended interval within which to mull whether to prosecute or not applies; it is not a self-justifying assertion. The question whether prosecution was justified was properly before the grand jury, and already decided there.
Once an indictment is handed down, prosecutors retain a narrower power to decide whether to prosecute or not, but that power comes with constraints. Proper justification to withhold prosecution is determination that the indictment was unlawful. That calls for outright dismissal with prejudice.
Practical justification could be allowed instead, if the case were trivial, and prosecutorial resources stretched thin.
Neither of those applies in this case. To stay on the safe side, the judge ought to announce:
Prosecutors have no proper power to ignore this indictment without reason. On the strength of facts already presented, there is no reason to suppose a lawless indictment.
This case appears on first impression to be one of unusual import, fully justifying a maximum-priority review, to determine if that first impression misunderstands the facts. That review will answer the question whether any argument can stand that it remains a low-priority case. I expect an answer to that question in two weeks.
Your take on the case has assumed that federal grand jury indictments are matters subject to absolute administrative discretion. And you demand exercise of unlimited judicial discretion. Neither your assumption nor your demand stands up.
When newly-recruited federal grand jury members show up for service, they are presented a handbook to brief them on their appropriate role and powers. That handbook expressly disclaims what you assume and insist. Neither the administration nor the judge is empowered to dismiss federal grand jury indictments at pleasure.
You are, of course, mistaken. Indeed, a prosecution does not even commence unless the prosecutor signs the grand jury's indictment. Otherwise, their vote is a nullity.
Still clinging to a disingenuous denial that you do actually understand Fraud ≠ Murder? Way to stick to your story.
Only reason I brought it up in the first place is the way your disingenuous throw-away line implying disingenuousness is the only possible explanation of why Judge Ho might wish to explore the issues in greater detail, is such a perfect, self-referential, closed-loop example of a like, long-demonstrated tendency in yourself. It's what poker players call a tell.
As to the far more important issue—"...what it is about fraud and murder that would make you want "with prejudice" in one, and "without prejudice" in the other"—I noted, there's a huge volume of precedent supporting approval of a prosecutor's dismissal without prejudice request in all but exceptional circumstances. The likely outcome of your disingenuously inapplicable hypo (as others have noted, a Squirrel!—what if something with no relevance to our topic happened!), would be sanction and removal of the prosecution team, a normal precedent-following dismissal without prejudice, and direction that the DA refer the information to a different prosecutor, for possible referral to a new grand jury and potential new indictment. Up to the judge to decide if a fraud case's lower level of societal consequences plus serious prosecutorial misconduct would favor an equally rational decision to dismiss with prejudice.
One thing it depends on is if a demonstrated desire of the prosecutor to dismiss without prejudice, constitutes a prohibited strategic use under Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 48. Which, btw, is what Bove is credibly accused of.
So, why use a hypo when there are exactly on-point real-world examples? Plug your inapplicable hypo's underlying assumptions into a drugs-n-guns case (meaningful charges, but not murder), decided by one of my faves, the curmudgeonly, no-nonsense DC District Judge Emmet G. Sullivan:
You're smart enough not to credulously swallow Prof. Cassell's comically unsupported assertion at the end of one of his pieces a couple days ago, that defense attorney Spiro's letter declaring No quid pro quo! I didn't do it! means...
Wouldn't we both like something a little stronger, like evidence submitted to the court and under-oath testimony from witnesses on both sides of the question, for both the quid pro quo and extortion issues? Nah...just go ahead with your frivolous, doe-eyed, Tuckeresque I'm only asking questions, schtick.
So if I can make out an actual point in that barrage of chaff, the essential difference is that fraud being a less serious offense than murder, a judge might want to dismiss with rather than without prejudice to showboat his hissy fit about prosecutorial misconduct.
ie although the suspected fraudster ought to face trial, I’m going to let him off. So the world can see just how pouty I am about the prosecutor. But obviously I wouldn’t do that for a murder.
That is alas my own caricature view of the judiciary. But I do realise it’s a caricature.
So, you deflect by accusing Judge Sullivan of a hissy fit? (Your point is the "less serious," regardless of whether it's guns-n-drugs, or fraud, correct?) (Oh look—another Squirrel!).
He's been accused of many things in the past, but mostly in being overly blunt and not suffering fools gladly, not in being a showboat (he really hates showboating in in his court).
But, as you seem to consider analogy as argument instead of just illustration, bringing the same mindset to caricature is unsurprising.
I confess I couldn't be bothered to read the case you linked. So save me the effort. Did the defendant agree to the prosecutor's request to dismiss "without prejudice" ?
If he did, then yes Sullivan was showboating.
Feel free to explain your distinction between how this stuff differs, between fraud and murder.
I can lead you to water but I have no particular interest in making you drink.
I think you'd enjoy the Sullivan decision, a short entertaining read citing relevant with prejudice precedent, with detailed yet succinct explanations (hard thing to pull off) of the legal reasoning.
As to your “Did the defendant agree to the prosecutor's request to dismiss "without prejudice? If he did, then yes Sullivan was showboating?”
…the answer is not only no, but it was a client-initiated move-to-dismiss with prejudice. The judge eventually agreed. You might want to review some the precedent cited and rethink your overbroad assumptions.
(btw, a couple federal court practicing lawyers told me on other strings that client consent is not mandated even for without prejudice dismissals, and Judge Ho’s concern was not its absence, but that the written client consent Bove’s motion said was obtained, was not filed with the motion. I had not known that; it would have changed my earlier comments).
You were, however, perceptive in zeroing in on client consent of with/without prejudice dismissal as the one unique issue in this truly unique case. All dismissal cites I reviewed (and Federal Rule 48) assumed the defendant and prosecution were opposing teams with differing objectives.
Trump’s DoJ changed that, entering into a new collaborating relationship with the client, to pursue mutually-beneficial objectives, many outside the legal system, for the next 10 months (until the next NYC Mayor is sworn in Jan 1st.…who may or may not be Adams).
Rule 48’s bounded legal definitions of terms like strategic use and prosecutorial harassment differ from plain language meanings (as the Sullivan decision explains), and both the rule and all cites to precedent I read, assume a client/prosecutor adversarial, not collaborative relationship (except one straight bribe the DA to drop the charges case).
That’s why I earlier said “…my SWAG is this ends with Judge Ho, in this unique set of circumstances, approving the current DoJ dismissal motion…there's just so much precedent that, even given unique facts, it's hard to create a new unique precedent.”
A Judge Ho decision to dismiss with prejudice would unavoidably broaden current strategic use precedent, to incorporate mutual client/prosecutor benefits outside the legal system as a factor in prosecutorial misconduct. Despite the logic in establishing that new precedent, it seems real-world unlikely. Pity.
You last offer? Asked and answered. Drop the sealioning please.
The question was … why is it OK to dismiss a fraud case with prejudice when both sides are agreed on without …. but not OK for a murder case ?
So your Sullivan example was irrelevant all along. Thank goodness I wasted no time on it. He was deciding a case in favor of the side who argued for with, not deciding against both sides arguing for without.
All dismissal cites I reviewed (and Federal Rule 48) assumed the defendant and prosecution were opposing teams with differing objectives.
And therefore irrelevant as precedent for this situation.
Still waiting for an answer on the fraud v murder one. Though I’m not expecting one, I must admit.
a lot of misconduct, though. and it's the public corruption division, that's what they do, their mandate.
No. I think the DA should replace the prosecutor and let the newly assigned prosecutor review the file and decide whether the charges are justified.
I would like to see a citation to one other time in history where prosecutors dismissed charges, without even looking at the case file, in order to review whether those charges were justified.
The new DA (USA) hasn't been appointed yet.
Bove's memo also indicates the timeline for review - until the NYC Mayoral election is done.
The legal question - on which you may be an expert - is once you indict someone, can you sit on the case for several months waiting for the review to take place, or can the defendant and / or judge say - you guys had better speed up or the case should be dismissed.
If SDNY can keep the case in abeyance until November without dismissing the charges (without prejudice) then :
(a) I don't see the need to drop the case
(b) but dismissing the charges without prejudice, and holding the case in abeyance without dropping them amounts to the same thing in practice
So where's the beef ?
Well, for one thing, holding the case in abeyance until after the election is utterly illegitimate. There's not even a non-laughable argument for that. It's just pure pro-corruption on Trump's part, trying to establish the notion that it's illegitimate to prosecute a politician if one can find an election anywhere on any calendar. (Because the corollary is: if the politician wins said election, it then becomes illegitimate to prosecute afterwards because the people by voting for the politician decided they didn't care.)
To respond to the rest of what you said: it does not take "several months" to review a case file and decide whether a prosecution is legitimate. They could do that in a week or two.
Depends on how much else there is to do.
There's a rat infestation - clearing out the rats comes first.
Your lapse into frivolity would lose the argument for you, even without the evident and improper collateral intent.
"but I'm quite certain that it is."
I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with - geometric logic - that a duplicate quid pro quo did exist!
The outrage is that law enforcement does this all day, every day. Why is it special that it's a Mayor this time?
This seems like an apposite spot to bring forward a question I asked David in one of the earlier threads, in response to him arguing that it was unethical for the Feds to pressure Adams to do "official acts" , because he'd taken an oath to do the best for the city of New York.
So my question is :
"Would you take the same view if Adams was an executive of a private company who had taken an oath to act in the best interests of the company ? Or if he was the Mayor of Toronto ?"
Another example of how Trump has distorted others' reality and made them accept arguments in his favor they would have thought ridiculous as recently as 2015.
This point is so obvious it's a wonder that so many people here - including some of the finest second-rate legal minds in Academia - seem oblivious to it
Pressuring FDNY to approve Turkish embassy not up to code and accepting benefits, including worldwide luxury travel, for that conduct. Lying on public disclosure forms, including creating fake paper trails. Soliciting straw donations from foreign nationals in order to steal public funds. Encouraging witnesses to lie to the FBI and destroying evidence. Just so we’re clear what conduct that the Trumpists are minimizing here.
I can of course see why the resident Thomas fanboys would excuse the disclosure… omissions
Why else has the DOJ chosen to dismiss these charges without prejudice? What do they think might happen to get them to re-institute the prosecution down the road besides "he didn't play ball"?
As I explained on another thread, it seems like a year ago, but was only two or three days ..... there's a perfectly legitimate "why else ?"
The new management of the DoJ is concerned that the prosecution may have been politically motivated. May have been, not was. Therefore they wish to review the case carefully, once they have their own trusted shiny new SDNY DA in place. And once he has shifted more urgent things off his desk. So they want to hit "pause" until the review of the probity of the prosecution has been confirmed. Or not as the case may be. Obviouly therefore they do not want the charges to be dismissed with prejudice as that would prevent them prosecuting once they have reviewed the case.
I don't say that this IS the reason. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But the search for a rational non corrupt basis for hitting "pause" is not a long and difficult one.
Hilarious. What are they going to learn while this "pause" in this place? The former SDNY USA is going to dramatically confess, Perry-Mason-style, that he's a corrupt bastard?
The former SDNY USA may be pure as the driven snow.
But it's entirely rational for the new management of the DoJ to make the (rebuttable) presumption that everyone working there before 20 January 2025, including the doorman, was a political hack.
Hence the rationality of reviewing sensitive cases. After all, even political hacks may bring valid cases to court, if it is their interests to do so.
But it's entirely rational for the new management of the DoJ to make the (rebuttable) presumption that everyone working there before 20 January 2025, including the doorman, was a political hack.
Except that they didn't do that. Read Bove's letter for yourself. I helpfully linked it below.
No, they probably have made that presumption, but they have chosen not to say so publicly, because that might be considered rude. I am not subject to the constraints of politesse in office.
I am not subject to the constraints of politesse in office.
That's not it. You're claiming to be a mind-reader.
Not sure what you're referring to. If you're referring to my post containing the words :
"I don't say that this IS the reason. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But the search for a rational non corrupt basis for hitting "pause" is not a long and difficult one."
then obviously there is no claim of any mind reading nature. It's a "rational basis" argument, which as I'm sure you know doesn't have to be the actual rational basis.
If you are referring to my supposition that new management of the DoJ shares my supposition as to what a rational presumption might be, then I am guilty of supposing. To precisely the same extent as you, who supposes that they don't share it. Pot and kettle time 🙂
If you're referring to my post containing the words :
I guess I should have quoted your whole short post that I was directly replying to, since you now want to go back a couple steps:
No, they probably have made that presumption, but they have chosen not to say so publicly, because that might be considered rude. I am not subject to the constraints of politesse in office.
Where the presumption you're talking about:
But it's entirely rational for the new management of the DoJ to make the (rebuttable) presumption that everyone working there before 20 January 2025, including the doorman, was a political hack.
That presumption is easily rebutted by the words Bove put in his memo to Sassoon explicitly saying that he wasn't claiming that. Yet you decided that he was "probably" lying, I guess. Hence, the mind reading.
"I'm not saying you're a halfwit, Jason"
does not mean that (hypothetically) I may not be thinking you are indeed a halfwit. And even if I am thinking that, it is not a lie to say :
"I'm not saying you're a halfwit, Jason"
You're making my point for me, here, thanks.
I don't say that this IS the reason. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But the search for a rational non corrupt basis for hitting "pause" is not a long and difficult one.
The most straightforward way to take your intention in your original comment is that you are trying to persuade people that they should accept that reason you put forth, and you are putting in that disclaimer as some kind of hedge in case you are shown to be wrong.* That is when you start deflecting and claiming that you weren't really asserting the truth of that thing you spent so much effort constructing.
If it really is an alternative hypothesis that you were putting forth sincerely, then you should have been looking for evidence that it wasn't true before you went any further. That you didn't do that and then focused on me instead of the facts that I presented against it, shows your disingenuousness in this whole thread.
* "Hey, I'm just asking questions." Is the most dishonest crap I see regularly from people that don't make the slightest effort to answer their own questions with readily available facts. Tucker Carlson is infamous for that.
Well you may have taken it that way, but that’s not what I intended.
I liberally sprinkled “rational basis” throughout precisely because I was doing a rational basis review in response to the question “why else” than a deal.
As I assume you know a rational basis review has zero to do with any consideration of the actual basis.
I’m primarily interested in the strength of the arguments, not in tediously wrestling about the allegations of fact.
It is not at all rational. But even if it was, that would — as I noted the other day — occasion Bondi/Bove to call up Sassoon and say, "We're concerned about this. We'd like you to review this and see whether the charges were justified, and then come meet with us to discuss."
Not, "Go dismiss the charges and then we'll figure out whether dismissing the charges was justified."
Your theory is that Sassoon was not working at the DoJ before 20 January 2025 ?
Do you have any evidence for this ? It seems unlikely.
Did you ever read Bove's memo? He refers to Sassoon "inheriting" the case, so whether she worked at the office or not, she wasn't in charge of it before at least then.
The relevant line:
Moreover, as I said during our recent meetings, this directive in no way calls into question the integrity and efforts of the line prosecutors responsible for the case, or your efforts in leading those prosecutors in connection with a matter you inherited.
What part of "everyone" in
But it's entirely rational for the new management of the DoJ to make the (rebuttable) presumption that everyone working there before 20 January 2025, including the doorman, was a political hack.
are you struggling with ?
Partisan delusions are not reasonable.
Also, no one said that.
Huh? I think you're the one struggling with that. You are saying that it is rational for the Trump DoJ to view everyone working in the SDNY before Trump's inauguration as a political hack. In what world is it rational to think something like that? That is not rational at all; it is an obvious sign of unchecked cognitive bias to assume that an entire office of professional prosecutors, researchers, general office workers, and the doorman, are political opponents that consciously put their partisan goals ahead of basic professional ethics.
It sounds like projection, really.
If there’s a barrel of apples and you can see maggots poking out of some of the apples on top, it’s reasonable to assume that any given apple in the barrel may be maggoty.
So you don’t just dig down and grab an apple and give it to your grandkid without looking at it. You inspect it carefully.
Thus until you have a moment to sort through the barrel carefully it’s entirely rational to assume the whole barrel is suspect. What would be irrational would be to assume sight unseen that any given apple is maggot free.
Sassoon is a Federalist Society Republican and a one time protege of Bove.
I don't say that this IS the reason. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But the search for a rational non corrupt basis for hitting "pause" is not a long and difficult one.
You seem to have missed the part where Bove explicitly stated that the Trump DoJ "reached this conclusion [to dismiss the case] without assessing the strength of the evidence or the legal theories on which the case is based."
He add some weak sauce justification about Mayor Adams's criticisms of the Biden Administration over immigration policy. Adams did speak out publicly against Biden on immigration, with a Washington Examiner headline from Dec. 18, 2023 that said, "Eric Adams says Biden has ‘abandoned’ the migrant crisis across the nation." However, the FBI had gotten a warrant to search his phone in Nov. 2023.
It is possible that the cause and effect is reversed here. Plausible explanation: He knows that the FBI is investigating, so he starts speaking out against Biden in the hopes that he could claim persecution if they charge him.
Why do you imagine that that contradicts me ?
"reached this conclusion [to dismiss the case] without assessing the strength of the evidence or the legal theories on which the case is based."
is entirely consistent with a pause for review. So long as you remember not to leave out "without predjudice" in your square brackets.
Moreover, Bove's memo explicitly states :
"the matter shall be reviewed by the confirmed U.S. Attorney in the Southern District of New York, following the November 2025 mayoral election, based on consideration of all relevant factors "
I tell you what. I can read minds too. They will review the case again in Nov 2025, after the election, based on consideration of whether Adams does what Trump wants him to.
Well, let me help: that isn't the reason. (To quote Prof. Cassell: "Period.")
This suggests asking for a continuance, not dismissing without prejudice.
So, Professor Post, if the dismissal were with prejudice, would you withdraw you objections?
He might have different ones.
Incidentally, if this deal costs Adams his position, and he can't do Trump's bidding anymore, what happens to the charges?
I suspect Adams and his merry band of corrupt cop buddies could make themselves useful in a myriad of… less official… ways even if he’s booted from Gracie
So the judge has three options, if I understand.
One, dismiss the charge without prejudice (current DOJ ask)
Two, dismiss the charge with prejudice (take away the quid?)
Three, refuse to dismiss, and appoint a judicial special prosecutor
Independently, the Governor can remove the Mayor.
Another post. Deja vu all over again.
It is his name.
I was going to say Post post but thought it to obvious.
That's Clyde Tolson, not Jenkins. [You're probably thinking of Walter Jenkins, LBJ'S aide, who had to resign because of a sex scandal in 1964.]
Barnett/Blackman and the other fascist bootlickers are not serious people.
David Post: Its only blackmail-by-prosecution when Republicans like Bove do it, because we all know the highly ethical upstanding angelic Democrats and never-Trump prosecutors in Manhattan wouldn't bring a prosecution against Adams to pressure him when Adams started to waffle on migration.
For Post, its not "Show me the man, I'll show you a crime." It's "Show me Trump's allies, I'll show you the crime"
I am sure if I look back, Post was apoplectic about Hunter Biden and the laptop and the pardon, too. Or the serial killers and FBI murderer Biden pardoned.
The broadening of federal bribery statutes to cover common political activity is just politicization of the process.
I don't see any of the Tammany Hall New York Democrats indicted. When I do, and the field is level, maybe I will change my mind.
Ultimately, though 8 million New Yorkers have the right to re elect Adams, or whomever they want.
Based upon the indictment, there's communications in which Adams is being given free travel perks by the Turks, and Adams' aide is discussing how to make it look a bit less illegitimate. The Turks offered to give him tens of thousands of dollars worth of tickets for $50, and Adams' aide explains to them that the bill needs to be higher because otherwise it would look too suspicious. That is not "common political activity."
https://viewfromthewing.com/fbi-indictment-exposes-nyc-mayors-secret-turkish-airlines-deal-free-business-class-upgrades-vip-lounge-access-luxury-suites/
Agree or disagree with the practices, this is common in politics. And the Supreme Court rejected the use of the statute in a more egregious case. (https://www.oyez.org/cases/2015/15-474).
New York literally runs on this kind of grift to get building permits, gun licenses, and so on. So does Baltimore. Its who you know and how much they want to "expedite" the permit.
If you want to arrest every Democrat in the state, I wont stand in your way. Of course the charges will wont stick. But at least we'll have a view how the sausage is made.
Of course, I disagree with the practice and think NY should be deregulated. The result of the choking regulation is this kind of back scratching. But NY has been like this for 100+ years. Adams is no different than any other Tammany Hall politician.
This retreat into knowing cynicism is as predictable as it is balonious.
Do you also view soliciting straw donations from foreign individuals in order to steal public funds business as usual? How about forging documents in public disclosures? How about destroying evidence and encouraging people to lie to the FBI? I’m just trying to get a sense of what the outer limits of excusable conduct— because everyone does it— are for you
"balonious" is a great word, I'll borrow it.
I know, it shocks the conscious that someone would send 2 billion dollars to Stacey Abrams and call it appropriations for climate change. Its almost like...D.C. runs on legalized graft like NYC.
I'll wait for your outrage.
Deflection and whataboutism. The knowing cynicism is so predictable. I asked a straightforward question and you started talking about Stacey Abrams. Noted. The truth is there is no conduct you would not excuse— up to and including shooting someone in the middle of 5th avenue, as Trump so presciently observed years ago.
I’ll also note this is a classic technique. You’re not even alleging any criminal conduct by Abrams that would justify making this comparison. It’s just an appeal to incredulity— pick out something, make it sound absurd, and then by the time it’s debunked you’ve moved onto something else.
The epochal example of this is of course Bobby Jindal’s volcano monitoring but we can also pick examples from the last few weeks: $50 million in condoms for Gaza (Trump actually upped this to 100 million in remarks), 8billion in savings (oops, actually 8 million), 150 year old people drawing social security (oops, DOGE doesn’t understand COBOL), Zelinskyy was sleeping and refused to meet with Treasury, etc etc.
You say "whataboutism"
I say "selective prosecution"
we are not the same.
Prosecute everyone the same, or don't.
But don't selectively prosecute Adams and then default to whataboutism to justify weaponizing the DOJ against political enemies.
Prosecute Abrams? What for? Please specify the criminal conduct and laws violated.
The McDonnell conviction was tossed because SCOTUS decided that an official act required an actual decision on some issue was required; merely setting up meetings was insufficient. Conduct like issuing building permits is an actual decision.
omg, officials in New York City did favors to expedite building permits?! YOU DONT SAY THAT NEVER HAPPENED IN THE HISTORY OF TAMMANY HALL.
Shocking, shocking.
I'll wait while you go indict everyone else
If you need to go back more than a century for your whataboutism, then you really need start thinking more critically of your own words before you post them.
I wonder why the author does not prevent real, tangible evidence besides his feelings?
While it's obvious to all that Trump and his henchmen are corrupt AF here, what this incident really reflects is how incredibly gullible Trump is. It is so fucking easy to manipulate him. Adams played him like a fiddle, manipulating him by claiming with zero evidence that it was a political prosecution.
I disagree. Trump hates New York. He will make life there as miserable as possible because New Yorkers have always been wise to his shtick, rejected and mocked him for it. Having Adams under his thumb advances his ability to do so. See also the elimination of congestion pricing.
I don't think so. He believes in .... Trump . New Yorkers will learn to love him one day.
It's somewhat optimistic, but he did get 43% of the vote in the state and 30% in the city. So some New Yorkers love him. Or possibly hate the alternative more. The last Republican to get 43% in a Presidential race was Bush 41.
“New Yorkers will learn to love him one day”
Ew. This comes off as creepy.
If you had spent any meaningful time in NY, as I have, you could not possibly dispute what I have said. Mockery and disdain of Trump goes back decades, well before his political ascendancy. He will go out of his way to make life in NYC miserable. The Adams thing is part and parcel of that.
You appreciate, I trust, that my third sentence is a Trump thought bubble, not a Lee Moore thought bubble ? I don't think it's creepy for Trump to have such a thought bubble. A tad narcissistic perhaps.
Obviously many of the 57% who didn't vote for him feel mockery and disdain, but he still likes sucking up the luuurve of the those New Yorkers who don't feel the way you do. I think he enjoyed his Madison Square Garden rally.
Don't turn into Pauline Kael in your old age.
You appreciate, I trust, that my third sentence is a Trump thought bubble, not a Lee Moore thought bubble ?
I can probably accept that now that you've said it, but it was not at all obvious prior to that. There is a reason why we were taught not to switch between first, second, and third person in the same paragraph when we were in middle school. And also to put things that we are attributing to other people rather than our own voice in quotation marks.
I don't think it's creepy for Trump to have such a thought bubble. A tad narcissistic perhaps.
A tad narcissistic? Trump seems to have been shown a list of traits of narcissistic people when he was young and thought, "Challenge accepted!" (See how the quotation marks helped make it clear that I was put that thought in Trump's head and not mine?)
Seems a bit of a contradiction.
If they're corrupt then they won't care whether the charges are political or not. They'll just play along to get the promised quid.
While if they're dumb, they wouldn't be bothering with the "without prejudice" that upsets the conspiracy theorists so much. I'm sure Eric would prefer "with."
Of course they could be corrupt and dumb, but amazingly lucky that they accidentally hit on the one way to be fooled into buying Adams sob story that creates payback for themselves.
...but since Spiro told him they couldn't get the with (indeed, without is the sole rationale for the deal), they accepted the half-a-loaf without, as a kick-off to what Adams hopes will be a long, mutually-lucrative Trump relationship.
Sure, that would explain the Adams side of "the deal" but here we're addressing the Trumpy side, and whether we can square the circle of the Nieporent's corrupt AND stupid theory.
The "without" undermines the "stupid" - unless they did it by accident. In which case you would have expected the Adams side to gently guide things away from that accident.
Totally agree. The focus on a quid pro quo is irrelevant. Prosecuting ones political opponents because they are opponents and not prosecuting ones political allies because they are allies is corrupt regardless of whether the political alignment derives from any bargain or not.
The whole quid pro quo nonsense is a total red herring.
It’s a kind of Chewbacca defense. It superficially appears to have some sort of connection to what legal arguments are supposed to be about. But its purpose is to distract and confuse every bit as much as the South Park prototype.
Clarifying a bargain makes it worse and is a distinct wrong. But just as a robbery is still a robbery even if it wasn’t also a murder, and a defense lawyer who focuses only on the murder count is essentially conceding the robbery count, so here the folks focusing on the quid pro quo element are not disputing, and are essentially conceding, the corruptness of the underlying act.
Bingo. And you'll also note that no one defending the Trump administration on this is disputing any of the underlying facts of the charges against Adams, or that his actions were corrupt and illegal. Well, to the extent that they even know or care what they were.
Actually I did google to find out a little something on this - not more than a couple of minutes worth - and came across an article by some lawyer who laid out the facts as he understood them and seemed to think that the prosecutors had a good case, but well short of a slam dunk. Lawyer didn't seem to be grinding any political axe either way, so I bought his story (on a sale or return basis.) Can't be bothered to refind it.
For the avoidance of doubt, Adams' innocence or guilt has squat to do with anything I've been arguing for the past few days, so you're correct in my case to say that for the purposes of these discussions, I don't really care.
Cassell seems to be too literal-minded to understand an indirect threat, or maybe he just thinks that if, as a lawyer, you can't prove something in court, you have to pretend it's not there.
I'm sure he would agree that it is a threat for someone to say to a shopkeeper, "Give me 10% of your revenues from now on or I'll blow this place sky-high." But I'm not sure he would accept that it's also a threat to say, "Nice little shop you've got here. Be a shame if anything... happened to it."
If he [Adams] doesn't come through, I'll be back in New York City. And we won't be sitting on the couch. I'll be in his office, up his butt, saying, 'Where the hell is the agreement we came to?
Border Czar Tom Homan said that during a Fox News interview last Friday. I'm sure we'll get the usual, "Oh, he was just joking," defense.
"Yeah, obviously I was just kidding when I told the shopkeeper how it would be a shame if anything happened to his shop. Really."
Your user name makes me think of this old John Cleese bit that I had never seen until recently. Some of it is specific to British politics, naturally, but it still highly relevant to American politics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXCkxlqFd90